I consider this skill to be underperforming. As a class defining skill, it is weaker than other classes “burst” skills or other thief skill with less requirements. It requires stealth (which isn’t free) and other restrictions (positional, single target, 180 range, etc).
Lets compare it to ther skill and we don’t have to look far – Thief Vault.
Vault
-CD can be used 4-5 times in a row. Init acts as CD which can be overcome somewhat by init regen traits utilities.
-1/2 Evade
-600 Range
-AOE
-Max target 5
Backstab
-CD is at least 4 secs. No way around this.
-No evade
-180 range
-Single target
-Positional requirement
Yet, the damage is similar. Backstab takes more resources and is harder to land than vault. So why give vault the same damage? Based on this, BS should be buffed. Suggest the following.
-Rename to Shadow Stab
-180 AOE
-Remove positional requirement
-Increase damage coef to anywhere 2.8-3.2
-Max target 3
So… What I’m getting out of this… is… that they should nerf vault?
No really. I don’t want the thief nerf any further. I just want them to go back and look at “thief” and buff skills so we have comparable DPS vs elite specs. BS is just one of those skills.
I’m not going to play into your hands and get this post added to the nerf wish list. LOL.
They could make Backstab do more damage as one of the benefits of the trait Dagger Training. They could also or instead make Dagger Training increase the cast time of dagger’s 3rd auto-attack.
I think giving backstab AoE and removing the positional requirement is a bad idea but it defenitely needs a damage buff. Because thief is the most fragile class in the game with little to no group support it should make up for that in damage or something because right now you might aswell play a engineer or revenant but those classes are so boring compared to thief
Backstab is a skill that actually requires some… skill (positioning etc), and it’s one of the reasons why I like it, not just some mindless skill one can spam.
But yes, risk>reward. Maybe up the damage a little, or buff it somehow from traits, as I do agree it should do more damage then, let’s say Vault.
Seems fair to me. You can hide for 15 seconds and back stab continuesly (block, invul) and still land it. Vault can be seen a mile off and the oponent can have a power nap before they dodge.
Stealth isn’t free. But once stealth back stab is free.
You can shadow step + back stab from nearly any postion/ledge, you can’t with vault.
Back stab is also a dodge biter too. Quite a few times I set myself up for a back stab but do nothing and people still dodge
Fat Disgrace (banned) Man Flu Survivor – war/The Cabbage -Thief (gunners hold / [TaG])
Backstab a multi target skill? I know, we shouldn’t mix reality with game mechanics, but this is plain stupid.
Backstab scales awesomly with basilisk venom and steal. Overall, it’s way more precise and less clunky than vault. A properly prepared backstab is much more devastating than vault – buffing it would only make things worse; especially during times when dagger/pistol combo is FoTM.
You don’t even need to compare it to Vault to see how weak it is. Weakening Charge which costs 3 init outputs roughly the same damage and applies weakness. Hook Strike which isn’t a big damager is a 2s knockdown which is crazy good (when it works).
Steal→Stealth→Hook Strike→Weakening Charge combo is much better than Backstab, has no positional requirements, adds weakness to the target and trips more trait effects such as Pulmonary Impact.
Pistol Whip blows right past Backstab and is probably the biggest hitter on the thief costing 5 init and comes with a stun.
Pistol Whip →Steal→Stun combo is the most devastating alpha strike the thief has to my knowledge
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
I just think it needs to do more damage. It got an indirect damage nerf with the ferocity change and hasn’t been brought back up from that. And it is expected to be on par with skills such as Eviscerate now? I think a damage buff is all it really needs. When I play D/P I don’t even use it as a staple bursting attack as much as I used to. Why should I? Shadow Shot hits nearly, sometimes just as hard as a rightly positioned backstab AND offers a blind.
No, all it needs is a nerf.
Other skills from thief aswell , like tactical strike (the daze is just too good) , larcenous strike (lol 1 boonsteal on NO cooldown).
And stealth-dodge thieves…this needs to be removed or toned down. Perma stealth + perma evade + perma blind + perma backstab is just too much in one built.
Lol at you guys asking for buffs, get real. This noskill profession is overpowered, and I’m not the only one who thinks this way. Ask anyone in lionsarch.
No, all it needs is a nerf.
Other skills from thief aswell , like tactical strike (the daze is just too good) , larcenous strike (lol 1 boonsteal on NO cooldown).
And stealth-dodge thieves…this needs to be removed or toned down. Perma stealth + perma evade + perma blind + perma backstab is just too much in one built.
Lol at you guys asking for buffs, get real. This noskill profession is overpowered, and I’m not the only one who thinks this way. Ask anyone in lionsarch.
kitten kitten kitten kitten mother kitten kitten he’s kitten right, what the heck was I even thinking? This class is brain dead and I can literally drag my face across the keyboard to kill people. Backstab is fine just how it is
Yeah backstab is lackluster now if you consider the requirements. Dagger AA is better and safer than backstab not to mention spells from other classes………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Backstab is underperforming compared to what other classes can do with near to zero effort, but you cannot compare 2 so different weapon sets.
I agree that in this game every AoE hit should deal a lot of less damage than single target skills, but this is not the case.
Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
Funny given how many classes have an AoE alpha strike higher than an attack that requires setup, positioning and is single target. Backstab is ridiculously under-powered in the new AoE meta of this game. It takes a minimum of three to bring down a decently hardened opponent. That is three stealths, three getting behind them and three landing that shot between blocks, invulns, evades, etc.
Oh and of course it is touch based so it only effects one player and a thief has to get up close and personal to deliver it. There are entire classes/builds that D/D thieves avoid now.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
Oh and of course it is touch based so it only effects one player and a thief has to get up close and personal to deliver it. There are entire classes/builds that D/D thieves avoid now.
This is so true. When running d/d here are things I avoid 1v1 because I know I will lose:
-any guardian (especially DH)
-any engi
-condi mesmer
-druid
-any non staff ele
funny thing about DH, I was dueling my wife and she got kittened at me because she simply couldn’t beat me (thief v thief) so she jumped on her Guardian, speced to DH, which she has never played, and proceeded to absolutely wreck my kitten. She’s not good at pvp.
Oh and of course it is touch based so it only effects one player and a thief has to get up close and personal to deliver it. There are entire classes/builds that D/D thieves avoid now.
This is so true. When running d/d here are things I avoid 1v1 because I know I will lose:
-any guardian (especially DH)
-any engi
-condi mesmer
-druid
-any non staff ele
funny thing about DH, I was dueling my wife and she got kittened at me because she simply couldn’t beat me (thief v thief) so she jumped on her Guardian, speced to DH, which she has never played, and proceeded to absolutely wreck my kitten. She’s not good at pvp.
lol ur just bad. Thief is op. I rek gards day in and day out, u jus gotta lern to pleh. Use shirtbow and kite kite kite and then wen they maek a mistake then u swich to dager and burst tem down. Tis class is braynded. And dun ask wut a mistake wood be bcuz if u were gud ud no wut a mistake a gard wood make wood lok liek
lol ur just bad. Thief is op. I rek gards day in and day out, u jus gotta lern to pleh. Use shirtbow and kite kite kite and then wen they maek a mistake then u swich to dager and burst tem down. Tis class is braynded. And dun ask wut a mistake wood be bcuz if u were gud ud no wut a mistake a gard wood make wood lok liek
In duels D/D builds are just getting destroyed. Even the best players I know cannot consistently hang with well played classes in duels. About the only thing a D/D is good at is blowing up full zerk, low armor builds like other thieves, staff eles, etc.
No D/D wrecks a DragonHunter, Reaper, Scrapper, Druid, Mesmer, Chronomaster, D/D Celestial Ele, Berzerker, Revenant that is decently played. All of these have way too much defense and most of these have heavy spike damage AoEs. A shortbow is pitiful DPS that most of these classes can stand and laugh at.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
Oh dear… Oh dear, oh dear. The only thing I would even consider being a legit buff for BS would be a 10-15% damage increase at the very most. I mean hey, why don’t you ask them to reduce the ini requirement for heartseeker too, so all you HS spamming pro’s can look godlike again…
No, all it needs is a nerf.
Other skills from thief aswell , like tactical strike (the daze is just too good) , larcenous strike (lol 1 boonsteal on NO cooldown).
And stealth-dodge thieves…this needs to be removed or toned down. Perma stealth + perma evade + perma blind + perma backstab is just too much in one built.
Lol at you guys asking for buffs, get real. This noskill profession is overpowered, and I’m not the only one who thinks this way. Ask anyone in lionsarch.
Please roll a thief and show me that perma everything build you’re talking about. Don’t forget to record how you clearly kill ppl in ranked while being carried by that overpowered build. After that teach us how to fight 1v1 in a king of the hill arena vs DH, Chronomancers, Reapers, Scrappers, Druids/Rangers and Revenants.
Clearly we are all baddies since we still need buffs while being carried so you PRO can show us the way to OPness.
Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
So… What I’m getting out of this… is… that they should nerf vault?
No really. I don’t want the thief nerf any further. I just want them to go back and look at “thief” and buff skills so we have comparable DPS vs elite specs. BS is just one of those skills.
I’m not going to play into your hands and get this post added to the nerf wish list. LOL.
No no no… See, it’s much harder to re-do backstab into shadow stab… So the easiest solution is to nerf vault to be on-par with backstab ;D see… one takes reworking, the other takes a modification of a number.
Thats exactly what happened to me! THREE unavoidable 4k backstabs into my dragonhunters back all while i couldnt see the thief A SINGLE SECOND! This is no pvp. In all honesty…i must not stealth like a coward. I put my traps and fight on node like a real man. No running like a coward. I must not rip all your boons with skill 3 spam while perma invis, dodging is for softies. I facetank like a real man. Lol backstab buff?!? Real man dont ask for buffs!
Real man ask for nerfs!
Kolly and Keitaro, you guys aren’t seeing his sarcasm
If that was the case I apologize for being trolled hard. Nowadays there’s too much trolling in this forum that I even miss when ppl where posting some real genuin nerf teefs topics
Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
If you buff the damage of this skill, you will not see any zerker spec around. That happened before the ‘ol backstab/CnD nerf. And Anet don’t want 100-0 from thief (DH its ok… or mesmer).
D/P thief is in a good spot. Other spec, a bit less…
I agree that it should be buffed. To complement my d/d condi teef, it should cause 3 stacks of confusion or a single target fear.
Think about it: when something pops up behind you (backstab), you’re gonna be like WTF! or be scared. Fear or Confusion stacks should be just about right.
I disagree that it should be buffed cause in that case any thief would one shot any other thief – I really thought we’ve had this, guys
If BS were buffed we’d just shift the problems.
Unlike other really heavy hitting skills, backstab doesn’t have a telegraph – it, in fact, can have literally 0 telegraph. Without any counterplay or even the ability to dodge it, it necessarily can only hit so hard before becoming a really toxic skill.
I agree that it doesn’t exactly scare opponents that have put in some effort to tank up, but I’d be really wary of pushing it any further due to how it performs in Bronzodia; I’d rather see power elsewhere in the kit, if it is needed.
Unlike other really heavy hitting skills, backstab doesn’t have a telegraph – it, in fact, can have literally 0 telegraph. Without any counterplay or even the ability to dodge it, it necessarily can only hit so hard before becoming a really toxic skill.
I agree that it doesn’t exactly scare opponents that have put in some effort to tank up, but I’d be really wary of pushing it any further due to how it performs in Bronzodia; I’d rather see power elsewhere in the kit, if it is needed.
People who know how to play know when to dodge a backstab. Sounds as if I’m saying “L2P” not really meant like this, just that good players know when to dodge.
People who know how to play know when to dodge a backstab. Sounds as if I’m saying “L2P” not really meant like this, just that good players know when to dodge.
Good players are hard to hit in general.
When a thief uses a short duration stealth, you’re right, people with experience know how and when to dodge to avoid that backstab.
When a thief stacks a bunch of stealth using HS+BP, or Shadow Refuge, then, no, you don’t know when to dodge a backstab. Good players will know how to generally move to avoid a backstab or to make it whiff as a frontstab – but no, no one know when to dodge in that 15 second window to avoid getting backstabbed with consistency.
It’s a general problem of short stealths being good for the game, but long stealths being toxic – the former has counterplay, the latter does not.
When a thief uses a short duration stealth, you’re right, people with experience know how and when to dodge to avoid that backstab.
When a thief stacks a bunch of stealth using HS+BP, or Shadow Refuge, then, no, you don’t know when to dodge a backstab. Good players will know how to generally move to avoid a backstab or to make it whiff as a frontstab – but no, no one know when to dodge in that 15 second window to avoid getting backstabbed with consistency.
It’s a general problem of short stealths being good for the game, but long stealths being toxic – the former has counterplay, the latter does not.
Well, if the thief was low health or had plenty of condis on him, then he will likely use the full length of SR, depending on the opponents health, if it’s low, then he will try to backstab earlier.
BP + HS: If you stood in his red circle he will be stealthed for 3s, if you didn’t then it’s ~7s
Just saying.
But yes, if BS were increased significantly then it might be a problem and with that I don’t mean a true 1 vs 1 but thieves camping in SR and backstabbing passersby.
Oh dear… Oh dear, oh dear. The only thing I would even consider being a legit buff for BS would be a 10-15% damage increase at the very most. I mean hey, why don’t you ask them to reduce the ini requirement for heartseeker too, so all you HS spamming pro’s can look godlike again…
Let’s compare it to another skill. Well not really a skill but Bounding Dodger does more than than a front stab. That should be reason alone to buff BS.
Why not buff cloak and dagger? As it currently stands d/p has the #5, #2 → backstab combo that does pretty much the same / greater damage than D/D #5 → backstab.
I don’t think backstab itself should be buffed due to permastealth → 1 shot kill cheese. D/P has arguably been the strongest thief build for a while, dps issues are more related to its lack of sustain outside stealth. If anything, skills #4 and / or #5 should be buffed in some way (helps p/p too). PvP really doesn’t need more damage spike creep.
When a thief stacks a bunch of stealth using HS+BP, or Shadow Refuge, then, no, you don’t know when to dodge a backstab.
If a Thief stacks Stealth with BP+HS, he’ll have about 7 seconds of Stealth afterward, but he will have no initiative left. If he waits until the last moment, he’ll have about 7 initiative left to fight with. That’s only one to two non-auto-attacks. If he doesn’t wait, he may have little to no initiative to do anything else.
Unlike other really heavy hitting skills, backstab doesn’t have a telegraph – it, in fact, can have literally 0 telegraph. Without any counterplay or even the ability to dodge it, it necessarily can only hit so hard before becoming a really toxic skill.
I agree that it doesn’t exactly scare opponents that have put in some effort to tank up, but I’d be really wary of pushing it any further due to how it performs in Bronzodia; I’d rather see power elsewhere in the kit, if it is needed.
A dagger main thief going into stealth is not enough telegraphed for you? I would say that nackstab is the most telegraphed attack in the game.
Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
Unlike other really heavy hitting skills, backstab doesn’t have a telegraph – it, in fact, can have literally 0 telegraph. Without any counterplay or even the ability to dodge it, it necessarily can only hit so hard before becoming a really toxic skill.
I agree that it doesn’t exactly scare opponents that have put in some effort to tank up, but I’d be really wary of pushing it any further due to how it performs in Bronzodia; I’d rather see power elsewhere in the kit, if it is needed.
A dagger main thief going into stealth is not enough telegraphed for you? I would say that nackstab is the most telegraphed attack in the game.
Alright so now you know that he is stealthed, what do, you can’t dodge it and if you do he doesn’t lose stealth, most you can do against it is turn rapidly and hope it hits your face.
Alright so now you know that he is stealthed, what do, you can’t dodge it and if you do he doesn’t lose stealth, most you can do against it is turn rapidly and hope it hits your face.
I’ll remember that for the next time my buddy dodges my backstab “YO YOU CAN’T DO THAT HACKS!!”
Alright so now you know that he is stealthed, what do, you can’t dodge it and if you do he doesn’t lose stealth, most you can do against it is turn rapidly and hope it hits your face.
I’ll remember that for the next time my buddy dodges my backstab “YO YOU CAN’T DO THAT HACKS!!”
Alright you dodged it, now you are down 1 dodge and he still has multiple seconds of stealth to hit you.
Alright you dodged it, now you are down 1 dodge and he still has multiple seconds of stealth to hit you.
I’m a bit baffled as you’re a thief main – are you serious or trolling me?
A dodge usually gets you away from the thief, so he has to catch up = losing time. If you know the stealth pattern (what I explained above) you’ll know when he’ll approximately hit you – if he needs to be stealthed for a longer time, that one dodge destroys his chance to BS you.
Edit: Complete failure grammar and punctuation wise.
Alright you dodged it, now you are down 1 dodge and he still has multiple seconds of stealth to hit you.
I’m a bit baffled as you’re a thief main – are you serious or trolling me?
A dodge usually gets you away from the thief so he has to catch up = losing time. If you know the stealth pattern (what i explained above) you’ll know when he’ll approximately hit you – if he will need to be stealthed for a longer time, that one dodge destroys his chance to BS you.
Yes I suppose I’m forgetting about WvW where you can run away in one direction, but in SPvP you can’t do that.
Yes I suppose I’m forgetting about WvW where you can run away in one direction, but in SPvP you can’t do that.
Can’t say much about pvp, I’m still dolyak rank and stopped playing it for good after June. And before that I didn’t really know what I was doing anyway – trying to kill people and listening to the rage of my friends – fun times.
Edit: But my friend and I are evading each others backstabs in pvp arenas – just throwing that in – so theoretically it should be possible even in pvp.
Given the amount of requirements for backstab and how much risk it ovolves, it should go through invuls/prot/blocks etc. The old times when counterplay to backstab via those was justified is over. Other classes just do too much dmg while being way too tanky. I see literary no reason why backstab still works under old rules of some non existend meta/class balance.
If backstab with executioner can crit 10k, it’s vault that needs to be nerfed, not backstab that needs to be buffed.
Edit: And true shot. Nerf that nonsense. I don’t care if it’s a projectile and susceptible to projectile counters. It has the same CD as backstab, does more damage, does full damage regardless of where it hits, and is 1200 range. Yes, it does more damage. It has a coefficient of 2.66 vs. backstab’s 2.4.
If backstab with executioner can crit 10k, it’s vault that needs to be nerfed, not backstab that needs to be buffed.
Edit: And true shot. Nerf that nonsense. I don’t care if it’s a projectile and susceptible to projectile counters. It has the same CD as backstab, does more damage, does full damage regardless of where it hits, and is 1200 range. Yes, it does more damage. It has a coefficient of 2.66 vs. backstab’s 2.4.
Backstab is fine. It’s a lot of front-loaded damage. It also will typically hit a lot harder than True Shot on the basis that the thief stacks way more damage modifiers than guard to such a degree that True Shot should rarely deal more damage.
Granted, I’m not arguing about the balance of True Shot; I can’t really safely say if it’s fair, though; I do wonder about the cooldown being a bit too low, but I don’t really play guard at all and haven’t messed with DH.
Vault needs to go up on the initiative and Bounding Dodge needs its damage cut down. Dodge damage two-shotting people is a little bit stupid. No need for backstab/CS for HK when just blowing two dodges does the same damage.
If anything about Backstab or building for backstab is to be changed, I could see some love to Hidden Killer being pretty fair in terms of giving it some condition removal or making CnD a bit more potent via unblockable on a 6s ICD or something, just to keep D/D stab a bit more consistent.
