Guild Wars 2

Travlane.5948:

i think its more of a learn to read issue. its not not being able to kill/survive. the topic/point went right over your head. maybe thats myfault for insinuating rather than bluntly stating. let me try again

shatter = no reveal
cluster bomb = reveal

First time you are talking about shatters. So more of a learn to articulate your issue than me not being able to read. Please stay polite. I just provided facts without calling names or anything.

There is no way of having a constructive discussion if you disregard everything people say and just bring up new stuff while claiming nobody is listening. You were talking about phantasms and I elaborated how they can be countered. Period.

If you have trouble with shatters you might want to learn dodging. A Mesmer might be able to pop clones from stealth but he won’t be able to immobilize you in any way. Also, a Thief in no way has less dodges when out of stealth and he can have a high amount of endurance regeneration plus evades. He also has way more stealth than a Mesmer. If you personally do not like dropping in and out of stealth it is your right to not do so. But this is not how a Thieve is desigend. Why should another class be nerfed because you do not like how your own class is played the best? Especially since there are quite some cookie cutter and gimmicky builds for Thieves, too. I also do not have any clue why you suddenly involve the Healing Signet which in no way relates to the Mesmer.

Mesmers already have shorter invisibility and less invisibility. If you want Mesmers to have no damage while in stealth then maybe the Mesmer should get a backstab, too? Right?

Come on guys. Mesmers are ok we just ENVY the protection and aegis they have during stealth.

Can you imagine having an almost constant 30 percent damage reduction/aegis everytime we stealth up?

Sounds absolutely ridiculous..I know…

its not that i envy mesmer (i also play it too) i just point out the facts as i see them.

if we all agree that mesmer have the ability to be stealth 40-50% of the time correct me if i am wrong, thief also have the same ~50% stealth time if they want to attack (and not perma stealth just to run away) as x/d give you 3 sec revealed time so every 3 seconds you can go stealth for 4 seconds so 4/7 57% . sure you can go 20 seconds stealth while doing nothing as do mesmer can but the main difference is mesmer can do dmg while we cannot
after playing a mesmer imo thief and mesmer have lots of resembles
both have good vigor (mesmer better), teleport skills, stealth abilities, both good at roaming
while mesmer can do dmg from stealth thief can do better dmg out of stealth

if ambush was on 8 seconds CD all will scream thieves becomes mesmer class

it’s not envy, it’s about balance, design and nerfs patch after patch. Quite different from envy..

to be fair mesmer has had nerfs patch after patch also and thiefs has alot better dps from mesmers espessaly PU mesmers who usealy have around 2,6k to 2,7k armor (it might be reason why your backstab hits so low) and abouth protection you can just run sword/dagger and rip boons I cant understand what the debate is abouth you compeare bunker build of one class to burst build of another? and let me clear f1 and f2 shatters reveal mesmers so does all aoe skills smart mesmer can stay in stealth for max 14 seconds straight after what they need to w8 for 10 seconds to go in again for 4 seconds than 12 seconds untill you can pop decoy again than another 12 seconds for next 4 seconds so basicly around 25% stealth during battle yea if you kill PU mesmer clones than L2p beacos it will hurt…

general tip stop attacking mesmer clones and you can fight PU mesmers

mrmadhaze.8706:

it’s not envy, it’s about balance, design and nerfs patch after patch. Quite different from envy..

IMO this thread is actually just a lot of moaning and complaining by the OP, with plenty of factual inaccuracies sprinkled in.

As I said before, if thieves have balance issues they should be addressed, but on their own merits. What mesmers can and cannot do is not relevant because they are a completely different class and their stealth works in a different way. They cannot get stealth nearly as easily as thieves. They also have weaknesses that thieves do not.

Travlane.5948:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

no…stealth is both the same. enter stealth you are invisible. both stealths can be “revealed” but for thief its any dmg and mesmer only weapons dmg.

It is the same for both: only direct damage breaks stealth. Thief summons or condition fields don’t break stealth. Anyway, what you fought was a silly, cookie cutter duel build called the PU mesmer. The idea of PU mesmer is to spam phantasms (and clones for their traited death effect) and then just try to survive by running away and stealthing as much as possible. It’s both boring to play against and to play as, I don’t know why people bring these to duels.

if shatter doesnt break stealth then neither should cluster bomb. they are both explosions without targets. so…. u were saying? :P

Shatter is direct damage and does break stealth. Indeed, you can kitten up your stealth with shatter: use shatter => stealth => clone still running to target and shatters => you lose stealth. I think? Never really thought about it since I only play shatter builds that are equipped with iperson. Iperson creates shatter effect on you as well when you shatter, and that definitely breaks stealth.
The silly PU build you fought hardly ever shatters anyway. In fact, it probably never shatters for damage.

edit: to clarify, succesfully damaging target through shatters definitely should break stealth. If it doesn’t, well then that’s probably a bug.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

no…stealth is both the same. enter stealth you are invisible. both stealths can be “revealed” but for thief its any dmg and mesmer only weapons dmg.

It is the same for both: only direct damage breaks stealth. Thief summons or condition fields don’t break stealth. Anyway, what you fought was a silly, cookie cutter duel build called the PU mesmer. The idea of PU mesmer is to spam phantasms (and clones for their traited death effect) and then just try to survive by running away and stealthing as much as possible. It’s both boring to play against and to play as, I don’t know why people bring these to duels.

if shatter doesnt break stealth then neither should cluster bomb. they are both explosions without targets. so…. u were saying? :P

Shatter is direct damage and does break stealth. Indeed, you can kitten up your stealth with shatter: use shatter => stealth => clone still running to target and shatters => you lose stealth. I think? Never really thought about it since I only play shatter builds that are equipped with iperson. Iperson creates shatter effect on you as well when you shatter, and that definitely breaks stealth.
The silly PU build you fought hardly ever shatters anyway. In fact, it probably never shatters for damage.

edit: to clarify, succesfully damaging target through shatters definitely should break stealth. If it doesn’t, well then that’s probably a bug.

if ur clone still running after you go stealth and it deals dmg it breaks stealth

baylock.1703:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

no…stealth is both the same. enter stealth you are invisible. both stealths can be “revealed” but for thief its any dmg and mesmer only weapons dmg.

It is the same for both: only direct damage breaks stealth. Thief summons or condition fields don’t break stealth. Anyway, what you fought was a silly, cookie cutter duel build called the PU mesmer. The idea of PU mesmer is to spam phantasms (and clones for their traited death effect) and then just try to survive by running away and stealthing as much as possible. It’s both boring to play against and to play as, I don’t know why people bring these to duels.

if shatter doesnt break stealth then neither should cluster bomb. they are both explosions without targets. so…. u were saying? :P

Shatter is direct damage and does break stealth. Indeed, you can kitten up your stealth with shatter: use shatter => stealth => clone still running to target and shatters => you lose stealth. I think? Never really thought about it since I only play shatter builds that are equipped with iperson. Iperson creates shatter effect on you as well when you shatter, and that definitely breaks stealth.
The silly PU build you fought hardly ever shatters anyway. In fact, it probably never shatters for damage.

edit: to clarify, succesfully damaging target through shatters definitely should break stealth. If it doesn’t, well then that’s probably a bug.

if ur clone still running after you go stealth and it deals dmg it breaks stealth

Yes, that’s what I thought. But Travlane insisted this to not be the case, so I started to doubt myself.

Stealth IMO should either trigger revealed when you deal damage (no matter if its direct or passive damage through pets) or when you take damage. Otherwise its too strong. So for mesmers it should be the other way around: get revealed when you take damage in stealth.

Revealed for thieves was introduced for a reason…

Master of Timespace.2548:

baylock.1703:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

no…stealth is both the same. enter stealth you are invisible. both stealths can be “revealed” but for thief its any dmg and mesmer only weapons dmg.

It is the same for both: only direct damage breaks stealth. Thief summons or condition fields don’t break stealth. Anyway, what you fought was a silly, cookie cutter duel build called the PU mesmer. The idea of PU mesmer is to spam phantasms (and clones for their traited death effect) and then just try to survive by running away and stealthing as much as possible. It’s both boring to play against and to play as, I don’t know why people bring these to duels.

if shatter doesnt break stealth then neither should cluster bomb. they are both explosions without targets. so…. u were saying? :P

Shatter is direct damage and does break stealth. Indeed, you can kitten up your stealth with shatter: use shatter => stealth => clone still running to target and shatters => you lose stealth. I think? Never really thought about it since I only play shatter builds that are equipped with iperson. Iperson creates shatter effect on you as well when you shatter, and that definitely breaks stealth.
The silly PU build you fought hardly ever shatters anyway. In fact, it probably never shatters for damage.

edit: to clarify, succesfully damaging target through shatters definitely should break stealth. If it doesn’t, well then that’s probably a bug.

if ur clone still running after you go stealth and it deals dmg it breaks stealth

Yes, that’s what I thought. But Travlane insisted this to not be the case, so I started to doubt myself.

when so one destroys (kills clone) it has similiar effect to shatter in the blast and they just dont make difference.

teg.1340:

Stealth IMO should either trigger revealed when you deal damage (no matter if its direct or passive damage through pets) or when you take damage. Otherwise its too strong. So for mesmers it should be the other way around: get revealed when you take damage in stealth.

Revealed for thieves was introduced for a reason…

what part of stealth is utility for mesmers you dont understand? and its not offencive for mesmers its deffencive revealed was intrudiced to thiefs beacose otherwize you use shadow refuge and start spamming bacstab… untill stealth runs out and you lucky tath you can remove ageis from stealth its not revelaing when you hit target with ageis.

baylock.1703:

teg.1340:

Stealth IMO should either trigger revealed when you deal damage (no matter if its direct or passive damage through pets) or when you take damage. Otherwise its too strong. So for mesmers it should be the other way around: get revealed when you take damage in stealth.

Revealed for thieves was introduced for a reason…

what part of stealth is utility for mesmers you dont understand? and its not offencive for mesmers its deffencive revealed was intrudiced to thiefs beacose otherwize you use shadow refuge and start spamming bacstab… untill stealth runs out and you lucky tath you can remove ageis from stealth its not revelaing when you hit target with ageis.

and if you want regenerations on stealth you can take http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Rejuvenation what heals you alot more than mesmers get healing from regen from stealth … and you dont get all 3 boons every second in stealth you randomly get eather ageis/regeneration or protection for 3 seconds every second so its just soo random and on luck.

its my last post here I have no time or will to teach all mechanics you go and lear ur own class and remember thiefs guild also dont reveal thief.

baylock.1703:

baylock.1703:

teg.1340:

Stealth IMO should either trigger revealed when you deal damage (no matter if its direct or passive damage through pets) or when you take damage. Otherwise its too strong. So for mesmers it should be the other way around: get revealed when you take damage in stealth.

Revealed for thieves was introduced for a reason…

what part of stealth is utility for mesmers you dont understand? and its not offencive for mesmers its deffencive revealed was intrudiced to thiefs beacose otherwize you use shadow refuge and start spamming bacstab… untill stealth runs out and you lucky tath you can remove ageis from stealth its not revelaing when you hit target with ageis.

and if you want regenerations on stealth you can take http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Rejuvenation what heals you alot more than mesmers get healing from regen from stealth … and you dont get all 3 boons every second in stealth you randomly get eather ageis/regeneration or protection for 3 seconds every second so its just soo random and on luck.

its my last post here I have no time or will to teach all mechanics you go and lear ur own class and remember thiefs guild also dont reveal thief.

Actually, you randomly get either aegis/regen/or protection. However, the chance of getting protection is higher due to a minor trait that gives protection upon getting regen. Small detail…

As for the OP topic, illusion will not break stealth. If it did, the build would be trashed killing 1 elite, 2 utilities, and 1 weapon skill (and I haven’t touched traits yet). However, it does warrant some type of review from Anet as summoning a phantasm that can crit for upwards of 6-7K from stealth and at range seems broken to me.

Mesmer is a beast of a class, the only thing that’s really holding any nerfs is Tpvp which forces the mesmer to stay in or close by the capture point thus PU spec is undesireable.

It is wack-a-mole balancing from Anet. If it is not a problem in Tpvp, they barely touch it.

Well…Anet may release new gamemode in the future so this spec may see more play in the future.

@Travlane
PU is a strong build yes, but to me it sounds as if you are mixing all the strong abilities from different mesmer builds together.

1. A shatter mesmer does usually not rely much on stealth.
2. A typical PU mesmer (with the stealth heavy build) does usually not shatter illusions.
3. A typical PU mesmer does not have high damage phantasms. In this build, the clones pose the real danger.

Mesmers mainly use their stealth as a defense, but in this particular build, stealth can work as offense as well.

We can summon a new phantasm while in stealth, but we can also try to trick you into hitting us while using the scepter block. Whether we are in stealth or not, this will apply torment. Being in melee range, while dealing Aoe damage of any kind, is not your friend when fighting this type of build. We will take advantage of it. Don’t try to hit the mesmer in stealth unless you are certain the block is on cool down.

When the stealth from torch ends (not breaking it and revealing ourselves, but just naturally ends) we can apply burning on you if we are close. Try taking advantage of the fact that mesmers are slow. Back off when you see that happen, or vanish into stealth yourself.

If you kill the clones while being close to them, they will apply conditions to you. If the PU mesmer use a staff, the clones will cast Winds of Chaos, applying conditions to you and buffs to the mesmer. Combine this with the extra conditions we can apply through the torch stealth and the scepter block if you did not back off: That is what wears you out. That is in my opinion one of the main things that makes this particular build strong, not the lack of reveal from decoy.

Again, some of it can be avoided by moving away, if the illusions are chasing you they are not casting. If they are not casting, they are not doing any damage. As Xaylin said: You can kill the phantasms without punishment, the clones are more dangerous.

I don’t have a lot of experience with the PU build, but I did try to duel a friend of mine with it, just for the fun of it. He plays a thief, and found the best way to deal with it, was to stay far away to kill the clones as mentioned by Advent.

Most of the offensive aspect can be avoided if you don’t do exactly what we are hoping you will do. We can only burst with conditions if you play the cards into our hands.

I read through the thread and from what I can see its mostly about Prismatic Understanding Mesmers vs Thieves in terms of combat.

One thing I want to get out of the way first. If we are talking about total stealth uptime over an unlimited period, there is no arguing that the thief can maintain stealth the longest. Infact, if the thief wanted to we can permastealth, with 100% stealth uptime.

Going back to PU Mesmers vs Thieves, the biggest thing here is that 1v1 fights in GW2 often do not last longer than 1 minute, and as such, practical stealth uptime of the PU mesmer is often equal to that of the thief, if not longer.

The difference being that the thief often has to be out of stealth in order to deal damage to the mesmer while the mesmer can maintain stealth while still doing damage to the thief. As such, practical stealth uptime for the mesmer is much higher when compared to the thief.

Some players suggested that for a thief to kill the PU mesmer, all the thief needs to do is range and kite. And while this is true, the difference is that in the thief vs PU mesmer matchup, the the thief has to constantly play defensive, with no opportunity to play offensive while the mesmer can just keep pressure throughout the fight without having to play defensive at all.

The reason for this is the mesmer trait Chaos V: Debilitating Dissipation combined with Dueling X: Deceptive Evasion. Anytime the Thief attempts to play offensive, all the mesmer has to do is dodge, which:
1. Creates a clone and 2. “kills”/destroys a clone thus dealing AoE damage and spreading conditions, both an offensive and defensive move at once.

This means that the thief can never really ever be in melee range of the mesmer, and the mesmer can just keep pressuring the thief.

At the end of the day, I find this factor to be the biggest issue more so than Prismatic Understanding itself. I think one thing that would bring PU mesmers back into line would be changing how the game determines clone “death.” If anet made it so that only clones that were destroyed by an opponent’s attack, and not simply “overwritten,” by another clone-creating skill/trait would count as “clone death,” that could trigger Debilitating Dissipation, it would significantly change the matchup of PU Mes vs Thief, and would also add counterplay to the debilitating dissipation trait.

Until then, this is simply one more bad matchup to add to the long list of bad matchups for the thief class in general.

Well, I just wanted to add in wvw I have dueled 3 different PU mesmers. As a D/D thief, 2 of them were fairly easy to beat, while the 3rd I couldn’t touch. I don’t remember the eeapon combos of the first 2, but the third ran scepter/torch + sword/pistol so when he didn’t have a stealth up, he had a block or blur ready, and during the entire fight I think I only managed to land 1 backstab (around 4k). PU mesmers’ abilities still depend a fair amount on their skill levels when fighting us. I use both blind and condition removal in stealth, so CnD on the dangerous phantasms will both destroy their DPS output while (possibly) causing them to blow CDs. Possibly the most effective way to fight them is to show restraint. You don’t always have to hit with a BS, sometimes it’s better to wait out the block/chaos armor and CnD again. I save the burst till the end when I’m fairly sure it will kill them during the reveal duration. Remember that PU mesmers are fairly resistant to shattering their clones/phantasms, so use that against them.

baylock.1703:

to be fair mesmer has had nerfs patch after patch also and thiefs has alot better dps from mesmers espessaly PU mesmers who usealy have around 2,6k to 2,7k armor (it might be reason why your backstab hits so low) and abouth protection you can just run sword/dagger and rip boons I cant understand what the debate is abouth you compeare bunker build of one class to burst build of another? and let me clear f1 and f2 shatters reveal mesmers so does all aoe skills smart mesmer can stay in stealth for max 14 seconds straight after what they need to w8 for 10 seconds to go in again for 4 seconds than 12 seconds untill you can pop decoy again than another 12 seconds for next 4 seconds so basicly around 25% stealth during battle yea if you kill PU mesmer clones than L2p beacos it will hurt…

general tip stop attacking mesmer clones and you can fight PU mesmers

see its comments like that …that make me laugh. nobody knows what dps is. mesmers have higher dps than thieves…. why you ask ? lol ok …..lets define DPS. D is for damage….. P is for per…..S is for second. DAMAGE PER SECOND. how do we formulate DPS? its damage divided by total number of seconds. now when thieves enter stealth and evade we arent doing any dmg. and we do alot of evades and alot of stealth (both slightly more than a mesmer) …. on the other hand mesmer is doing dmg and conditions the whole time and has the same burst capability as a thief or close enough not to call it a noticeable difference(depending on build). so the entire time a thief is rolling around or walking around invis just so he can get his good hit….hes not doing dmg…which lowers his DPS…. now if he gets a 5k backstab in 10 seconds….thats 500 dmg per second. now the mesmer is constantly attacking for 1400 here 1700 there and every other second or so…. which is still alot higher than thief…bc hes able to do the dmg while in stealth and while evading…..

I play mostly mesmer these days (though not blackwater), so thought I’d weigh in. That build—blackwater, PU/condition—is quite good, but it has a few huge weaknesses, notably conditions and cc. It also has zero chase ability. When I played that build, I could give many thieves a good fight … until they backed off. And this is the thief’s major class-defining quality: the ability to choose and dictate fights. Few other classes have the mobility and escape, save maybe GS warriors and some mesmers (though importantly not blackwater!).

I agree that Prismatic Understanding is powerful—perhaps a bit too powerful. But like all other builds across all characters, it has weaknesses. For example, necros, engis, and, yes, condition thieves can all wreck it. Mesmer invisibility is powerful in short fights, but as the fight goes on and cooldowns catch up with you, stealth is much harder to achieve. Good thieves know this. They hit hard, bait out mesmers’ invisibility, and, most importantly, know the terrain and where the mesmer is likely to go. Save your high-power skills for when our invis is on cooldown, use blind if you see phantasms being summoned (in fact, use blind liberally), but be prepared to pull back if you are getting low on health. Staff/scepter mesmers cannot really chase or cc you, nor do they have anything (except chaos storm, which is on a long cooldown and doesn’t do much damage) to even hurt you in shadow refuge (and they have nothing to knock you out of it).

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

PU power builds, on the other hand, are very phantasm reliant. Dodge and then kill the phantasms, and you’ll find that the mesmer has little else to do significant damage. I agree this can be hard against good mesmers. But good mesmers will kill me too, as good players should.

Last but not least, keep in mind that for mesmers, stealth (and PU) is a crutch. You give up a lot of offense to take it, and it provides high survival in exchange for significant damage output (or, in stealth/condi builds, mobility and cc). The best mesmers use very little stealth, because PU gimps a lot of other builds. This even further allows others—and thieves, above all—to dictate the terms of fights against stealth mesmers.

Travlane.5948:

baylock.1703:

to be fair mesmer has had nerfs patch after patch also and thiefs has alot better dps from mesmers espessaly PU mesmers who usealy have around 2,6k to 2,7k armor (it might be reason why your backstab hits so low) and abouth protection you can just run sword/dagger and rip boons I cant understand what the debate is abouth you compeare bunker build of one class to burst build of another? and let me clear f1 and f2 shatters reveal mesmers so does all aoe skills smart mesmer can stay in stealth for max 14 seconds straight after what they need to w8 for 10 seconds to go in again for 4 seconds than 12 seconds untill you can pop decoy again than another 12 seconds for next 4 seconds so basicly around 25% stealth during battle yea if you kill PU mesmer clones than L2p beacos it will hurt…

general tip stop attacking mesmer clones and you can fight PU mesmers

see its comments like that …that make me laugh. nobody knows what dps is. mesmers have higher dps than thieves…. why you ask ? lol ok …..lets define DPS. D is for damage….. P is for per…..S is for second. DAMAGE PER SECOND. how do we formulate DPS? its damage divided by total number of seconds. now when thieves enter stealth and evade we arent doing any dmg. and we do alot of evades and alot of stealth (both slightly more than a mesmer) …. on the other hand mesmer is doing dmg and conditions the whole time and has the same burst capability as a thief or close enough not to call it a noticeable difference(depending on build). so the entire time a thief is rolling around or walking around invis just so he can get his good hit….hes not doing dmg…which lowers his DPS…. now if he gets a 5k backstab in 10 seconds….thats 500 dmg per second. now the mesmer is constantly attacking for 1400 here 1700 there and every other second or so…. which is still alot higher than thief…bc hes able to do the dmg while in stealth and while evading…..

But does constant dps even matter? My thief has 10k+ dps, but only for 2 seconds. He can also perma stealth. That’s often all I need.

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

Exactly this.

While people are saying a thief cant do damage while in stealth.
The mesmer can also not do damage to a thief while he is in stealth.
All our skills require a target and we have no aoe, shatters require a target aswell.

So, if both thief and mesmer are stealthed, noone can damage eachother.
If only thief is stealthed, noone can damage eachother.
If only mesmer is stealthed, thief can still damage the mesmer and mesmer can damage the thief.
If none is stealthed, both can damage eachother .

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

baylock.1703:

to be fair mesmer has had nerfs patch after patch also and thiefs has alot better dps from mesmers espessaly PU mesmers who usealy have around 2,6k to 2,7k armor (it might be reason why your backstab hits so low) and abouth protection you can just run sword/dagger and rip boons I cant understand what the debate is abouth you compeare bunker build of one class to burst build of another? and let me clear f1 and f2 shatters reveal mesmers so does all aoe skills smart mesmer can stay in stealth for max 14 seconds straight after what they need to w8 for 10 seconds to go in again for 4 seconds than 12 seconds untill you can pop decoy again than another 12 seconds for next 4 seconds so basicly around 25% stealth during battle yea if you kill PU mesmer clones than L2p beacos it will hurt…

general tip stop attacking mesmer clones and you can fight PU mesmers

see its comments like that …that make me laugh. nobody knows what dps is. mesmers have higher dps than thieves…. why you ask ? lol ok …..lets define DPS. D is for damage….. P is for per…..S is for second. DAMAGE PER SECOND. how do we formulate DPS? its damage divided by total number of seconds. now when thieves enter stealth and evade we arent doing any dmg. and we do alot of evades and alot of stealth (both slightly more than a mesmer) …. on the other hand mesmer is doing dmg and conditions the whole time and has the same burst capability as a thief or close enough not to call it a noticeable difference(depending on build). so the entire time a thief is rolling around or walking around invis just so he can get his good hit….hes not doing dmg…which lowers his DPS…. now if he gets a 5k backstab in 10 seconds….thats 500 dmg per second. now the mesmer is constantly attacking for 1400 here 1700 there and every other second or so…. which is still alot higher than thief…bc hes able to do the dmg while in stealth and while evading…..

But does constant dps even matter? My thief has 10k+ dps, but only for 2 seconds. He can also perma stealth. That’s often all I need.

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

Exactly this.

so your thief does 20k dmg in 2 seconds?

Ironvos.9014:

While people are saying a thief cant do damage while in stealth.
The mesmer can also not do damage to a thief while he is in stealth.
All our skills require a target and we have no aoe, shatters require a target aswell.

So, if both thief and mesmer are stealthed, noone can damage eachother.
If only thief is stealthed, noone can damage eachother.
If only mesmer is stealthed, thief can still damage the mesmer and mesmer can damage the thief.
If none is stealthed, both can damage eachother .

again…another person that this coversation is over your head. its not about thief vs mesmer. its about stealth. and how much dmg each can do while in stealth. mesmer can do lots. thief can do none. problem? yes.

Bunda.2691:

I play mostly mesmer these days (though not blackwater), so thought I’d weigh in. That build—blackwater, PU/condition—is quite good, but it has a few huge weaknesses, notably conditions and cc. It also has zero chase ability. When I played that build, I could give many thieves a good fight … until they backed off. And this is the thief’s major class-defining quality: the ability to choose and dictate fights. Few other classes have the mobility and escape, save maybe GS warriors and some mesmers (though importantly not blackwater!).

I agree that Prismatic Understanding is powerful—perhaps a bit too powerful. But like all other builds across all characters, it has weaknesses. For example, necros, engis, and, yes, condition thieves can all wreck it. Mesmer invisibility is powerful in short fights, but as the fight goes on and cooldowns catch up with you, stealth is much harder to achieve. Good thieves know this. They hit hard, bait out mesmers’ invisibility, and, most importantly, know the terrain and where the mesmer is likely to go. Save your high-power skills for when our invis is on cooldown, use blind if you see phantasms being summoned (in fact, use blind liberally), but be prepared to pull back if you are getting low on health. Staff/scepter mesmers cannot really chase or cc you, nor do they have anything (except chaos storm, which is on a long cooldown and doesn’t do much damage) to even hurt you in shadow refuge (and they have nothing to knock you out of it).

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

PU power builds, on the other hand, are very phantasm reliant. Dodge and then kill the phantasms, and you’ll find that the mesmer has little else to do significant damage. I agree this can be hard against good mesmers. But good mesmers will kill me too, as good players should.

Last but not least, keep in mind that for mesmers, stealth (and PU) is a crutch. You give up a lot of offense to take it, and it provides high survival in exchange for significant damage output (or, in stealth/condi builds, mobility and cc). The best mesmers use very little stealth, because PU gimps a lot of other builds. This even further allows others—and thieves, above all—to dictate the terms of fights against stealth mesmers.

again…coversation yyou totally missed. its not about thief vs mesmer or mesmer not having or having weaknesses. its about stealth and the fact mesmers AI does the work and can even do dmg themselves while in stealth and never get revealed. thief however can do nothing while in stealth or it reveals him. period. thats not fair. PU is a build for dummies. literally….. heres the ideas……stay invis let the computer do the work mostly….and dodge roll when u need to while stealth isnt up…atleast til you entere stealth again then just continue eating popcorn.

Travlane.5948:

shatter = no reveal

When you shatter with a shatter that deals direct damage (mind wrack, Cry of Frustration) it gives revealed. I decided to ignore everything you had to say after this because you’re clearly biased in your opinion against mesmer’s abilities with no real knowledge on how they work.

Using Diversion (the daze) or Distortion (the invuln) doesn’t give revealed, just as thieves Caltrops (both the on dodge and utility) or Poison Gas does not give thieves reveal.

I recommend you pay a mesmer, learn how they work, and get better as a player.

Cheers. ~

@Burnfall post
LOL!
Keep it up. Thanks.

Travlane.5948:

Ironvos.9014:

While people are saying a thief cant do damage while in stealth.
The mesmer can also not do damage to a thief while he is in stealth.
All our skills require a target and we have no aoe, shatters require a target aswell.

So, if both thief and mesmer are stealthed, noone can damage eachother.
If only thief is stealthed, noone can damage eachother.
If only mesmer is stealthed, thief can still damage the mesmer and mesmer can damage the thief.
If none is stealthed, both can damage eachother .

again…another person that this coversation is over your head. its not about thief vs mesmer. its about stealth. and how much dmg each can do while in stealth. mesmer can do lots. thief can do none. problem? yes.

How much damage? Not enough to put you in critical condition.

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

I play mostly mesmer these days (though not blackwater), so thought I’d weigh in. That build—blackwater, PU/condition—is quite good, but it has a few huge weaknesses, notably conditions and cc. It also has zero chase ability. When I played that build, I could give many thieves a good fight … until they backed off. And this is the thief’s major class-defining quality: the ability to choose and dictate fights. Few other classes have the mobility and escape, save maybe GS warriors and some mesmers (though importantly not blackwater!).

I agree that Prismatic Understanding is powerful—perhaps a bit too powerful. But like all other builds across all characters, it has weaknesses. For example, necros, engis, and, yes, condition thieves can all wreck it. Mesmer invisibility is powerful in short fights, but as the fight goes on and cooldowns catch up with you, stealth is much harder to achieve. Good thieves know this. They hit hard, bait out mesmers’ invisibility, and, most importantly, know the terrain and where the mesmer is likely to go. Save your high-power skills for when our invis is on cooldown, use blind if you see phantasms being summoned (in fact, use blind liberally), but be prepared to pull back if you are getting low on health. Staff/scepter mesmers cannot really chase or cc you, nor do they have anything (except chaos storm, which is on a long cooldown and doesn’t do much damage) to even hurt you in shadow refuge (and they have nothing to knock you out of it).

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

PU power builds, on the other hand, are very phantasm reliant. Dodge and then kill the phantasms, and you’ll find that the mesmer has little else to do significant damage. I agree this can be hard against good mesmers. But good mesmers will kill me too, as good players should.

Last but not least, keep in mind that for mesmers, stealth (and PU) is a crutch. You give up a lot of offense to take it, and it provides high survival in exchange for significant damage output (or, in stealth/condi builds, mobility and cc). The best mesmers use very little stealth, because PU gimps a lot of other builds. This even further allows others—and thieves, above all—to dictate the terms of fights against stealth mesmers.

again…coversation yyou totally missed. its not about thief vs mesmer or mesmer not having or having weaknesses. its about stealth and the fact mesmers AI does the work and can even do dmg themselves while in stealth and never get revealed. thief however can do nothing while in stealth or it reveals him. period. thats not fair. PU is a build for dummies. literally….. heres the ideas……stay invis let the computer do the work mostly….and dodge roll when u need to while stealth isnt up…atleast til you entere stealth again then just continue eating popcorn.

So your complaint is with … the concept of mesmers?? That they cast (mostly) static clones that do a bit of damage?? I may as well condemn thieves guild (how dare you cast AI-controlled minions) or caltrops (How dare you cast a skill that has the audacity to, on its own, harm me if I decide to step in its red circle).

PU may be a bit powerful, I’ll give you that, but it’s still a crutch. You may not kill them, but you shouldn’t die to PU condition builds. Also, remember that revealed is meant primarily to prevent perma-stealth on thieves, not mesmers. I agree that it is a crude solution, but keep in mind that it was designed for thieves, not mesmers.

Bunda.2691:

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

I play mostly mesmer these days (though not blackwater), so thought I’d weigh in. That build—blackwater, PU/condition—is quite good, but it has a few huge weaknesses, notably conditions and cc. It also has zero chase ability. When I played that build, I could give many thieves a good fight … until they backed off. And this is the thief’s major class-defining quality: the ability to choose and dictate fights. Few other classes have the mobility and escape, save maybe GS warriors and some mesmers (though importantly not blackwater!).

I agree that Prismatic Understanding is powerful—perhaps a bit too powerful. But like all other builds across all characters, it has weaknesses. For example, necros, engis, and, yes, condition thieves can all wreck it. Mesmer invisibility is powerful in short fights, but as the fight goes on and cooldowns catch up with you, stealth is much harder to achieve. Good thieves know this. They hit hard, bait out mesmers’ invisibility, and, most importantly, know the terrain and where the mesmer is likely to go. Save your high-power skills for when our invis is on cooldown, use blind if you see phantasms being summoned (in fact, use blind liberally), but be prepared to pull back if you are getting low on health. Staff/scepter mesmers cannot really chase or cc you, nor do they have anything (except chaos storm, which is on a long cooldown and doesn’t do much damage) to even hurt you in shadow refuge (and they have nothing to knock you out of it).

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

PU power builds, on the other hand, are very phantasm reliant. Dodge and then kill the phantasms, and you’ll find that the mesmer has little else to do significant damage. I agree this can be hard against good mesmers. But good mesmers will kill me too, as good players should.

Last but not least, keep in mind that for mesmers, stealth (and PU) is a crutch. You give up a lot of offense to take it, and it provides high survival in exchange for significant damage output (or, in stealth/condi builds, mobility and cc). The best mesmers use very little stealth, because PU gimps a lot of other builds. This even further allows others—and thieves, above all—to dictate the terms of fights against stealth mesmers.

again…coversation yyou totally missed. its not about thief vs mesmer or mesmer not having or having weaknesses. its about stealth and the fact mesmers AI does the work and can even do dmg themselves while in stealth and never get revealed. thief however can do nothing while in stealth or it reveals him. period. thats not fair. PU is a build for dummies. literally….. heres the ideas……stay invis let the computer do the work mostly….and dodge roll when u need to while stealth isnt up…atleast til you entere stealth again then just continue eating popcorn.

So your complaint is with … the concept of mesmers?? That they cast (mostly) static clones that do a bit of damage?? I may as well condemn thieves guild (how dare you cast AI-controlled minions) or caltrops (How dare you cast a skill that has the audacity to, on its own, harm me if I decide to step in its red circle).

PU may be a bit powerful, I’ll give you that, but it’s still a crutch. You may not kill them, but you shouldn’t die to PU condition builds. Also, remember that revealed is meant primarily to prevent perma-stealth on thieves, not mesmers. I agree that it is a crude solution, but keep in mind that it was designed for thieves, not mesmers.

seems only a few adept players/experienced players get it.

thief AI = follow player while stealthed
mesmer AI= still attack direct and conditions while player stealthed

best AI = mesmer

thief = no dmg while stealthed without causing reveal
mesmer = can do damage while stealthed

best dps in stealth without reveal = mesmer

Thief = has to set up attacks in stealth and atleast 1/2 miss while playing defensively.
mesmer = ranged and don thave to set up but only play defensive/

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

I play mostly mesmer these days (though not blackwater), so thought I’d weigh in. That build—blackwater, PU/condition—is quite good, but it has a few huge weaknesses, notably conditions and cc. It also has zero chase ability. When I played that build, I could give many thieves a good fight … until they backed off. And this is the thief’s major class-defining quality: the ability to choose and dictate fights. Few other classes have the mobility and escape, save maybe GS warriors and some mesmers (though importantly not blackwater!).

I agree that Prismatic Understanding is powerful—perhaps a bit too powerful. But like all other builds across all characters, it has weaknesses. For example, necros, engis, and, yes, condition thieves can all wreck it. Mesmer invisibility is powerful in short fights, but as the fight goes on and cooldowns catch up with you, stealth is much harder to achieve. Good thieves know this. They hit hard, bait out mesmers’ invisibility, and, most importantly, know the terrain and where the mesmer is likely to go. Save your high-power skills for when our invis is on cooldown, use blind if you see phantasms being summoned (in fact, use blind liberally), but be prepared to pull back if you are getting low on health. Staff/scepter mesmers cannot really chase or cc you, nor do they have anything (except chaos storm, which is on a long cooldown and doesn’t do much damage) to even hurt you in shadow refuge (and they have nothing to knock you out of it).

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

PU power builds, on the other hand, are very phantasm reliant. Dodge and then kill the phantasms, and you’ll find that the mesmer has little else to do significant damage. I agree this can be hard against good mesmers. But good mesmers will kill me too, as good players should.

Last but not least, keep in mind that for mesmers, stealth (and PU) is a crutch. You give up a lot of offense to take it, and it provides high survival in exchange for significant damage output (or, in stealth/condi builds, mobility and cc). The best mesmers use very little stealth, because PU gimps a lot of other builds. This even further allows others—and thieves, above all—to dictate the terms of fights against stealth mesmers.

again…coversation yyou totally missed. its not about thief vs mesmer or mesmer not having or having weaknesses. its about stealth and the fact mesmers AI does the work and can even do dmg themselves while in stealth and never get revealed. thief however can do nothing while in stealth or it reveals him. period. thats not fair. PU is a build for dummies. literally….. heres the ideas……stay invis let the computer do the work mostly….and dodge roll when u need to while stealth isnt up…atleast til you entere stealth again then just continue eating popcorn.

So your complaint is with … the concept of mesmers?? That they cast (mostly) static clones that do a bit of damage?? I may as well condemn thieves guild (how dare you cast AI-controlled minions) or caltrops (How dare you cast a skill that has the audacity to, on its own, harm me if I decide to step in its red circle).

PU may be a bit powerful, I’ll give you that, but it’s still a crutch. You may not kill them, but you shouldn’t die to PU condition builds. Also, remember that revealed is meant primarily to prevent perma-stealth on thieves, not mesmers. I agree that it is a crude solution, but keep in mind that it was designed for thieves, not mesmers.

seems only a few adept players/experienced players get it.

thief AI = follow player while stealthed
mesmer AI= still attack direct and conditions while player stealthed

best AI = mesmer

thief = no dmg while stealthed without causing reveal
mesmer = can do damage while stealthed

best dps in stealth without reveal = mesmer

Thief = has to set up attacks in stealth and atleast 1/2 miss while playing defensively.
mesmer = ranged and don thave to set up but only play defensive/

You’re totally correct. Mesmers, by virtue of the way their profession works, do more damage than thieves while stealthed.

But, conversely, which profession does more damage while not stealthed?

In the end, it’s kind of a wash. As it should be.

Bunda.2691:

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

I play mostly mesmer these days (though not blackwater), so thought I’d weigh in. That build—blackwater, PU/condition—is quite good, but it has a few huge weaknesses, notably conditions and cc. It also has zero chase ability. When I played that build, I could give many thieves a good fight … until they backed off. And this is the thief’s major class-defining quality: the ability to choose and dictate fights. Few other classes have the mobility and escape, save maybe GS warriors and some mesmers (though importantly not blackwater!).

I agree that Prismatic Understanding is powerful—perhaps a bit too powerful. But like all other builds across all characters, it has weaknesses. For example, necros, engis, and, yes, condition thieves can all wreck it. Mesmer invisibility is powerful in short fights, but as the fight goes on and cooldowns catch up with you, stealth is much harder to achieve. Good thieves know this. They hit hard, bait out mesmers’ invisibility, and, most importantly, know the terrain and where the mesmer is likely to go. Save your high-power skills for when our invis is on cooldown, use blind if you see phantasms being summoned (in fact, use blind liberally), but be prepared to pull back if you are getting low on health. Staff/scepter mesmers cannot really chase or cc you, nor do they have anything (except chaos storm, which is on a long cooldown and doesn’t do much damage) to even hurt you in shadow refuge (and they have nothing to knock you out of it).

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

PU power builds, on the other hand, are very phantasm reliant. Dodge and then kill the phantasms, and you’ll find that the mesmer has little else to do significant damage. I agree this can be hard against good mesmers. But good mesmers will kill me too, as good players should.

Last but not least, keep in mind that for mesmers, stealth (and PU) is a crutch. You give up a lot of offense to take it, and it provides high survival in exchange for significant damage output (or, in stealth/condi builds, mobility and cc). The best mesmers use very little stealth, because PU gimps a lot of other builds. This even further allows others—and thieves, above all—to dictate the terms of fights against stealth mesmers.

again…coversation yyou totally missed. its not about thief vs mesmer or mesmer not having or having weaknesses. its about stealth and the fact mesmers AI does the work and can even do dmg themselves while in stealth and never get revealed. thief however can do nothing while in stealth or it reveals him. period. thats not fair. PU is a build for dummies. literally….. heres the ideas……stay invis let the computer do the work mostly….and dodge roll when u need to while stealth isnt up…atleast til you entere stealth again then just continue eating popcorn.

So your complaint is with … the concept of mesmers?? That they cast (mostly) static clones that do a bit of damage?? I may as well condemn thieves guild (how dare you cast AI-controlled minions) or caltrops (How dare you cast a skill that has the audacity to, on its own, harm me if I decide to step in its red circle).

PU may be a bit powerful, I’ll give you that, but it’s still a crutch. You may not kill them, but you shouldn’t die to PU condition builds. Also, remember that revealed is meant primarily to prevent perma-stealth on thieves, not mesmers. I agree that it is a crude solution, but keep in mind that it was designed for thieves, not mesmers.

seems only a few adept players/experienced players get it.

thief AI = follow player while stealthed
mesmer AI= still attack direct and conditions while player stealthed

best AI = mesmer

thief = no dmg while stealthed without causing reveal
mesmer = can do damage while stealthed

best dps in stealth without reveal = mesmer

Thief = has to set up attacks in stealth and atleast 1/2 miss while playing defensively.
mesmer = ranged and don thave to set up but only play defensive/

You’re totally correct. Mesmers, by virtue of the way their profession works, do more damage than thieves while stealthed.

But, conversely, which profession does more damage while not stealthed?

In the end, it’s kind of a wash. As it should be.

You dummy, the Memser does more damage of course.

You see, to do a Backstab, you need oh guess what? Stealth.

Part of the burst that is non stealth is CnD and Mug which doesn’t even do 1/2 the damage of Mesmer BF+Shatter.

Also, are you implying that clones/phant stop attacking while you’re not stealthed?

Bunda.2691:

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

Travlane.5948:

Bunda.2691:

I play mostly mesmer these days (though not blackwater), so thought I’d weigh in. That build—blackwater, PU/condition—is quite good, but it has a few huge weaknesses, notably conditions and cc. It also has zero chase ability. When I played that build, I could give many thieves a good fight … until they backed off. And this is the thief’s major class-defining quality: the ability to choose and dictate fights. Few other classes have the mobility and escape, save maybe GS warriors and some mesmers (though importantly not blackwater!).

I agree that Prismatic Understanding is powerful—perhaps a bit too powerful. But like all other builds across all characters, it has weaknesses. For example, necros, engis, and, yes, condition thieves can all wreck it. Mesmer invisibility is powerful in short fights, but as the fight goes on and cooldowns catch up with you, stealth is much harder to achieve. Good thieves know this. They hit hard, bait out mesmers’ invisibility, and, most importantly, know the terrain and where the mesmer is likely to go. Save your high-power skills for when our invis is on cooldown, use blind if you see phantasms being summoned (in fact, use blind liberally), but be prepared to pull back if you are getting low on health. Staff/scepter mesmers cannot really chase or cc you, nor do they have anything (except chaos storm, which is on a long cooldown and doesn’t do much damage) to even hurt you in shadow refuge (and they have nothing to knock you out of it).

In short, patient thieves can wreck PU mesmers. Those that go all in and spam skills, however, will have much more trouble.

PU power builds, on the other hand, are very phantasm reliant. Dodge and then kill the phantasms, and you’ll find that the mesmer has little else to do significant damage. I agree this can be hard against good mesmers. But good mesmers will kill me too, as good players should.

Last but not least, keep in mind that for mesmers, stealth (and PU) is a crutch. You give up a lot of offense to take it, and it provides high survival in exchange for significant damage output (or, in stealth/condi builds, mobility and cc). The best mesmers use very little stealth, because PU gimps a lot of other builds. This even further allows others—and thieves, above all—to dictate the terms of fights against stealth mesmers.

again…coversation yyou totally missed. its not about thief vs mesmer or mesmer not having or having weaknesses. its about stealth and the fact mesmers AI does the work and can even do dmg themselves while in stealth and never get revealed. thief however can do nothing while in stealth or it reveals him. period. thats not fair. PU is a build for dummies. literally….. heres the ideas……stay invis let the computer do the work mostly….and dodge roll when u need to while stealth isnt up…atleast til you entere stealth again then just continue eating popcorn.

So your complaint is with … the concept of mesmers?? That they cast (mostly) static clones that do a bit of damage?? I may as well condemn thieves guild (how dare you cast AI-controlled minions) or caltrops (How dare you cast a skill that has the audacity to, on its own, harm me if I decide to step in its red circle).

PU may be a bit powerful, I’ll give you that, but it’s still a crutch. You may not kill them, but you shouldn’t die to PU condition builds. Also, remember that revealed is meant primarily to prevent perma-stealth on thieves, not mesmers. I agree that it is a crude solution, but keep in mind that it was designed for thieves, not mesmers.

seems only a few adept players/experienced players get it.

thief AI = follow player while stealthed
mesmer AI= still attack direct and conditions while player stealthed

best AI = mesmer

thief = no dmg while stealthed without causing reveal
mesmer = can do damage while stealthed

best dps in stealth without reveal = mesmer

Thief = has to set up attacks in stealth and atleast 1/2 miss while playing defensively.
mesmer = ranged and don thave to set up but only play defensive/

You’re totally correct. Mesmers, by virtue of the way their profession works, do more damage than thieves while stealthed.

But, conversely, which profession does more damage while not stealthed?

In the end, it’s kind of a wash. As it should be.

mmmhmmmm….but i dont believe somebody should be able to do nothing yet do alot you know what i mean? all while stealthed and pretty safe.

Travlane.5948:

mmmhmmmm….but i dont believe somebody should be able to do nothing yet do alot you know what i mean? all while stealthed and pretty safe.

Congratulations — you just summarized every post asking for thieves to be nerfed that has ever been made.

Travlane.5948:

mmmhmmmm….but i dont believe somebody should be able to do nothing yet do alot you know what i mean? all while stealthed and pretty safe.

Like preparing that nasty backstab?
You know, the one people tend to complain about coming out of nowhere?
Yes it is an unfair reply, but think about it.

A Mesmer is not using stealth the same way a thief is. We do not get extra attacks, we are not going to hit you like a truck from stealth (unless you spam skills on us while we are in stealth.)
The two classes use stealth in a different way. Since the PU does not have burst (unless you spam skills on us) and since the PU Mesmer kills slowly, they need to survive long enough to land their damage.

Phantasm builds are a completely different story. They literally hit like trucks no matter what.
Could it be designed better or differently?
Maybe it could.

Qaelyn.7612:

Travlane.5948:

mmmhmmmm….but i dont believe somebody should be able to do nothing yet do alot you know what i mean? all while stealthed and pretty safe.

Congratulations — you just summarized every post asking for thieves to be nerfed that has ever been made.

undeserving requests as i stated mesmers are the ones that can really abuse it. if a thief goes in stealth and hides nobody is the worse for wear….. but a mesmer is still goig to hammer you and go right back in and hammer you while in stealth. thats the difference.

i think messiah had it right by mentioning it wouldnt be so bad with such and awesome uptime of aegis and protection…… if thief had such an incredible uptime of both of those…. players would be blowing up the forums asking for a nerf…… yet here we are while mesmers do it AND do dmg while in stealth and not even lift a fingher half the time to do so.

I think you are strafing away from the purpose of your original post. You asked why it was different and you asked not for nerfs.

When people try to give you reasons as to why it might be different, you seem to get angry with the people replying to you and about the spec itself.

I have seen many people calling brainless on several thief specs. Often due to not understanding the thief class.

Maybe you should consider that even though the PU spec is very strong (and maybe even too strong) there might still be something for you to learn and improve upon when fighting this particular build. No need to insult the spec itself. The way a mesmer’s stealth works is not only related to the PU build after all.

Travlane.5948:

undeserving requests as i stated mesmers are the ones that can really abuse it.

That’s what people say about thieves and stealth too.

Travlane.5948:

if a thief goes in stealth and hides nobody is the worse for wear…..

LOL. That’s pretty funny.

Do mesmers have special, extra-strong attacks that become available every time they stealth? And can they use them a dozen times a minute or more?

Please.

Right now on my defensive build I can stealth over and over, using CnD, steal, powder, shadow refuge, etc. etc. Every time I do I get tons of health regen, I remove conditions every 3 seconds, and I get to restart the fight with a nasty attack with the timing I choose, not the enemy.

It’s pretty funny seeing people who play thieves complaining about stealth.

Oh, and PU mesmer is not IMO a “no-brainer” character at all. If you’re good, it’s powerful, but I’ve been playing it off and on for a while and it is far from being simple.

ask anyone. well most …. its a dumb build for brainless players. its strong and u cant die if u dont want to. aand its not like “you wont die adn are super strong if u play right”….its there regardless.

thief on the other hand….even if u play average you are gonna die fast and die alot. u have to be super pro to really stand up and do decently/on par.

skill level need should = reward / power gained.

Travlane.5948:

ask anyone. well most …. its a dumb build for brainless players. its strong and u cant die if u dont want to. aand its not like “you wont die adn are super strong if u play right”….its there regardless.

thief on the other hand….even if u play average you are gonna die fast and die alot. u have to be super pro to really stand up and do decently/on par.

skill level need should = reward / power gained.

Here we go again with the brainless calling and the insults. Why on earth do you make a topic for discussion when you in reality just want to vent your frustration?

Oh, and the not die unless you want to… What class was it again that people complained could always run away or reset the fight if it wasn’t in their favour?

Travlane.5948:

see its comments like that …that make me laugh. nobody knows what dps is. mesmers have higher dps than thieves…. why you ask ? lol ok …..lets define DPS. D is for damage….. P is for per…..S is for second. DAMAGE PER SECOND.

just little correction

thieves have better dps (assuming power build) but mesmer have better Sdps
S for sustain

dps is calculte by damage/(activation time+ recharge time)= dps , that why thieves have the best dps in the game as they dont have recharge

however sustainable DPS refers to the ability to produce damage over a long period of time through attack chain which mesmer can do better as longer the fight thieves sdps getting lower

Travlane.5948:

ask anyone. well most …. its a dumb build for brainless players. its strong and u cant die if u dont want to.

You know who else can’t die if they don’t want to?

Thieves.

Have you ever actually played a PU mesmer? Doesn’t seem like it. They’re very strong against some builds, and fairly useless against others IME.

also i think what make PU mesmer build stronger is the fact mesmer dont have to play offensive rather than defensive all the fight
why is it stronger?
as thieves when i am going stealth i must choose whether to attack and if so i have 2-3 seconds to choose the right mesme, position myself and plan my next move, or to play defensively to cleanse conditions, lure the mesmer out ,check for aegis, protection

while as mesmer all he need to do is go stealth, use his phantasms to put conditions, go staff use blink, dodge to create more clone to put conditions, use chaos armor, block for torment, veil, run back etc
he doesnt need to see where the thief is as his illusions will tell him, he has to focus on staying alive an not focusing the thief at all and let his illusion to do all his dmg

i found an example of me playing mesmer (to full pu build) against thief who surprise me (so he should had the upper hand) check from 1:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V19orMJO94o

by doing nothing i pushed him to use SR and his hp gone 50% with 1 blocking and he backoff

also check the 2v2 fight which shown that how enemies didnt focus me as i stealthed
leaving me free to attack them

Decoy (4s, 40cd) + Prestige (4s, 30cd) + Veil (6s, 90cd) + M. Invis (6s, 90cd)=20s chained; 10% + 13% + 6.6% + 6.6% = 36.6%. This is with the PU (GM) trait.

What happens when you CnD a clone?

messiah.1908:

Travlane.5948:

see its comments like that …that make me laugh. nobody knows what dps is. mesmers have higher dps than thieves…. why you ask ? lol ok …..lets define DPS. D is for damage….. P is for per…..S is for second. DAMAGE PER SECOND.

just little correction

thieves have better dps (assuming power build) but mesmer have better Sdps
S for sustain

dps is calculte by damage/(activation time+ recharge time)= dps , that why thieves have the best dps in the game as they dont have recharge

however sustainable DPS refers to the ability to produce damage over a long period of time through attack chain which mesmer can do better as longer the fight thieves sdps getting lower

dps is dps. SDPS is also DPS. thieves have good burst and so do mesmers. but dps is dps. damage per second. if the DPS is on a scale of 5 seconds or less its burst. if we are talking 10 seconds or more is no doubt DPS.

burst…..short amount of seconds.

DPS…..damage sustained over time….longer than burst but divided by total seconds

there is no such thing unsustained dps or sustained dps. DPS is supposed to be looked at by a larger quantity pool values. you cant take 3 or 4 hits and divide as there isnt enough differentiation in skills and variables set within the experiment and no control to boot. DPS MUST BE OVER A PERIOD OF TIME. if u take 1 mesmer and 1 thief with roughly the same power crit crit % etc etc the mesmer will always have higher DPS. period.

MIrra.3604:

Bunda.2691:

You’re totally correct. Mesmers, by virtue of the way their profession works, do more damage than thieves while stealthed.

But, conversely, which profession does more damage while not stealthed?

In the end, it’s kind of a wash. As it should be.

You dummy, the Memser does more damage of course.

You see, to do a Backstab, you need oh guess what? Stealth.

I assume you’re being sarcastic, in which case well done. If not, however, than you do realize that, if you classify Backstab as damage in stealth (which I wasn’t), then thieves are doing a lot more damage in stealth—and this whole argument is rendered moot.

MIrra.3604:

Part of the burst that is non stealth is CnD and Mug which doesn’t even do 1/2 the damage of Mesmer BF+Shatter.

Also, are you implying that clones/phant stop attacking while you’re not stealthed?

And again, I assume you are being sarcastic. A theif can out-burst a mesmer any day, save perhaps for a double mind wrack combo, which is really hard to pull off and can be done at most once every 90 seconds. But besides, full shatter builds cannot run PU without completely gimping their damage output. There are very few direct damage PU builds, and they are all phantasm reliant. Kill their phantasms, or use lots of blind, and the build is completely neutered.

Travlane.5948:

if u take 1 mesmer and 1 thief with roughly the same power crit crit % etc etc the mesmer will always have higher DPS. period.

This may be true, and for the sake of the argument I’ll ignore that mesmer’s sustained dps is entirely phantasm/clone dependent (kill phantams —> mesmer’s dps nosedives; or in condition builds, don’t kill clones --> dps nosedives again). But dps alone is not the only factor in fights. CC, positioning, forcing cooldowns, evades, stealth, timing, etc. are all as important—and d/p or p/d thieves have the ability to use other skills to mitigate their lack of sustained dps.

Quick question: I bet a d/d sb condition thief has higher sustained dps than a d/p or p/d power build. Does that make the condi build better?

baylock.1703:

teg.1340:

Stealth IMO should either trigger revealed when you deal damage (no matter if its direct or passive damage through pets) or when you take damage. Otherwise its too strong. So for mesmers it should be the other way around: get revealed when you take damage in stealth.

Revealed for thieves was introduced for a reason…

what part of stealth is utility for mesmers you dont understand? and its not offencive for mesmers its deffencive

No. It’s not defensive. Your clones deal damage while you are stealthed. That’s the whole reason of this thread.

Another option would be that all pets stop attacking while mesmer is stealthed. Now stealth is defensive! Problem solved.

@Travlane

you funny while arguing and saying the exact thing i was correcting you only in terms

google SDPS and you’ll see what it means

so all ppl will be on the same page

Backstab and do (lets say) 10k dmg in 0.5 seconds so its dps is 20k . sounds WOW
but the SDPS is low and you got to be stealth, position yourself behind so lets say it takes (in average) 3 seconds. so its SDPS is now 3.3k. and if the mesmer blink away and you trying again so its takes you 8 seconds to complete BS so the SDPS is now 1.25k

this is what makes a thief good dmg dealers as they got the highest dps in the game but their SDPS is bit low

another example Bunda mention .sometimes p/d conditions can have better SDPS than BS thief as his conditions ticks even when he is not attacking