Guild Wars 2

Just wondering if it’s called for.

Stealth Attacks
Surprise Shot: Damage + Immobilize
Hook Strike: Damage + Knockdown
Tactical Strike: Damage + Daze/Blind
Sneak Attack: Damage + Bleed
Backstab: Damage

While direct damage is a good thing for a Power Thief, it is absolutely ineffective against several defenses such as Endure Pain or Signet of Stone, and quite ineffective against Protection.

With the recent changes, does Backstab need something extra like a massive Bleed? It could help Condition/Hybrid Thieves as well as assisting Power Thieves to continue to apply pressure through certain defenses.

Ps. Yes, Sneak Attack already has Bleeds, but it is also ranged and easier to land than Backstab.

Introduce more condis? No ty. They should reduce amount of blocks/invuls/passives if anything.

D/P trapper would end up with fight potential which is a bad idea, and D/D condi doesn’t need anything; it’d only be agreeable if they removed the bleeding from DB, but that’s weapon-set specific, and something I know most D/D condi bandwagon players would cry hard about as it’d make the build require some degree of skill to play.

DeceiverX.8361:

I know most D/D condi bandwagon players would cry hard about as it’d make the build require some degree of skill to play.

Alas, how do you balance a game? It doesn’t matter the type of change you make, or even the extent… it’s going to anger some people.

It seems that the way Anet set up the weapons, there’s way too much connectivity between them. You can’t buff one set without buffing another. And you cannot nerf one without nerfing another. It’s one giant mess. You can’t fix one without overpowering another, and you can’t normalize one without breaking another.

While true to an extent, trait coupling and blatantly over-tuned or bad concept design that’s been rooted in some of the core kits which have not been nerfed is what makes everything seem awful.

Variation for dagger condi should come with a rework to OH dagger skills 3/4 and then traits to make it work better.

Rather than the backstab , any addition should go to the CnD or dancing dagger.

That then helps off hand for s/d and p/d as well both of which in comparative terms underperform in the current meta. The reason a thief on d/d condition does the DB skill spam is that it the only real way to apply meaningful conditions. Try it off the AA and you are dead in seconds .

Which is still poor design. Dancing Dagger should have condi synergy and normalized power damage, and DB made into a good evade for both builds to re-position or chase with. At that point, the AA on D/x could be buffed to offer more condition potency, and the skill floor and effective potential yields raised for condi builds while at least somewhat buffing OH dagger and D/D for power.

CnD is a problem because of other professions having too much to negate it now with little to no effort. Either it needs a lowered initiative cost or gain some method of reliability that isn’t just stealth without a target out of risk of making it way too strong a la D/D condi for actual combat potency + synergy with trapper ghost kit).

yet when one looks at p/d what Kageseigi suggests makes a certain amount of sense.

First one has to accept conditions are in the game and there have to be viable condition thief builds. The bias against conditions as a viable means of winning fights is bullcrap and with that comes the fact that since it DOT a condition build must be more robust.

That said P/D users will use CnD and are rewarded for it with that condition spike out of stealth. P/d as a set uses every bit as much of their 5 weapon skill slots as does d/d.

If there a reward for a condition user when pulling off a cnd than they will use that skill otherwise it simply not worth the INI. That reward can not be JUST backstab nor can it be the power damage and vuln currentky done bu the CnD. A Condition build d/d will use CnD in its current state less then will a power build use deathblossom.

not a bad idea i would vote for a longer poison or a short cripple

I’d like this, personally DB’s after cast makes it such a chore to use, and if I had a way to keep my Lead Attacks buff and bleeds up aside from DB I’d be a happy camper.

I’d propose a backstab knockdown or stun effect. Might it be OP, well who cares at this stage with the 1sec CD on stealth attacks it might just be justified!

If you happen to BS and interrupt and proc a pulmonary impact, oh that would be glorious.

My current balance ideas are:

I’d change backstab to either an unblockable attack that cannot crit or an attack that is unblockable but cannot crit while a person is blocking.

I’d change dancing dagger to include poison. This opens up a method for poison access without having to switch to SB, which is the only source of poison unless a thief is traited.

I would also change the duration of the poison field on SB to be longer. This could be adjusted with a slightly smaller radius for the purposes of balance. Either way, the field needs to last long enough to give more opportunities for combos in the field.

I would also suggest changing the ICD after a missed stealth attack to 0.5 seconds. One second feels clunky on thief and impacts certain builds, like S/X, more than builds like P/D where it doesn’t really effect most fights. Even 0.75 seconds would improve the situation significantly.

I would also restore the share radius of venomshare to at least 300. Alternatively I would increase the range to 600 and decrease the total share targets to 3. This would be more consistent in terms of the number of people receiving venoms and therefore easier to balance around.

I would remove some of the bleed on Death Blossom and add bleed to Heartseeker. More bleed stacks would be applied depending on the HP of the target when hit, as with the damage scaling.

I’d remove some of the damage on Shadowshot while increasing the damage on backstab.

I’d make the trickery initiative pool increase baseline. I would replace this trait with an increase in initiative regeneration. This makes skills’ initiative use easier to balance around. It also opens up other trait lines for people to use.

saerni.2584:

My current balance ideas are:

I’d change backstab to either an unblockable attack that cannot crit or an attack that is unblockable but cannot crit while a person is blocking.

I’d change dancing dagger to include poison. This opens up a method for poison access without having to switch to SB, which is the only source of poison unless a thief is traited.

I would also change the duration of the poison field on SB to be longer. This could be adjusted with a slightly smaller radius for the purposes of balance. Either way, the field needs to last long enough to give more opportunities for combos in the field.

I would also suggest changing the ICD after a missed stealth attack to 0.5 seconds. One second feels clunky on thief and impacts certain builds, like S/X, more than builds like P/D where it doesn’t really effect most fights. Even 0.75 seconds would improve the situation significantly.

I would also restore the share radius of venomshare to at least 300. Alternatively I would increase the range to 600 and decrease the total share targets to 3. This would be more consistent in terms of the number of people receiving venoms and therefore easier to balance around.

I would remove some of the bleed on Death Blossom and add bleed to Heartseeker. More bleed stacks would be applied depending on the HP of the target when hit, as with the damage scaling.

I’d remove some of the damage on Shadowshot while increasing the damage on backstab.

I’d make the trickery initiative pool increase baseline. I would replace this trait with an increase in initiative regeneration. This makes skills’ initiative use easier to balance around. It also opens up other trait lines for people to use.

Careful what you ask for, knowing devs they will just flat out nerf dmg across all weapon sets w/o any compensation.

And it makes no sense. A backstab that doesn’t crit – well ok then. That could be in the next balance patch.

ETA: I want a wet noodle dagger skin.

Jana.6831:

And it makes no sense. A backstab that doesn’t crit – well ok then. That could be in the next balance patch.

ETA: I want a wet noodle dagger skin.

Yeah, the suggestion of a Backstab that doesn’t crit only if blocked would be better… because if no Backstab could crit, Hidden Killer would be useless for a D/x build.

Actually, I wouldn’t mind a trait that allowed a Thief’s attack to daze/interrupt an opponent specifically if they are blocking. Even if the initial attack did no damage, it would allow the Thief to force the opponent out from bunkering.

Kageseigi.2150:

Yeah, the suggestion of a Backstab that doesn’t crit only if blocked would be better… because if no Backstab could crit, Hidden Killer would be useless for a D/x build.

Actually, I wouldn’t mind a trait that allowed a Thief’s attack to daze/interrupt an opponent specifically if they are blocking. Even if the initial attack did no damage, it would allow the Thief to force the opponent out from bunkering.

We have more pressing issues than the bunker meta. At least thief is in a complete mess:
Traits deleted or merged in a way that are only of use for a few sets, heals out of reach because of the traits no one takes, forced reveal, D/P being relatively OP, VS destroyed for the sake of PvE, calculations between heavy/medium/light are off – why does a warrior with twice as much HP hit harder than me?, the bunker meta, the shadowattack cooldown and so on.
Not only does thief need a complete overhaul by people who know what they’re doing – this whole game does and it’s such a mess that a few nip and tucks here and there won’t do anymore – that ship has sailed one year ago.

BS already have 33% chance to apply Poison, Weakness, and +10% Damage against the target when traited with Dagger Training.

Adding bleed to that is just broken.

Jana.6831:

D/P being relatively OP

I completely agree with the Thief being a complete mess right now. Though I believe the above statement’s accuracy is completely dependent on what you are relating it to.

Yes, D/P is overpowered relative to the rest of the Thief’s weapon sets.
But a D/P Thief is still inferior in relation to other professions. At least in PvP.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BS already have 33% chance to apply Poison, Weakness, and +10% Damage against the target when traited with Dagger Training.

Adding bleed to that is just broken.

Broken? Yes. But in the opposite direction that you seem to imply.

First, it’s a 33% chance to apply poison. For an attack that can happen only once every 4 seconds, that’s rather pathetic.

Second, you have to give up Mug which gives 100% chance to damage/heal… and may even out damage Dagger Training’s poison. On top of that, Steal will also give a 100% chance to apply poison, weakness, and +10% damage.

Third, power Thieves have little reason to take Potent Poison over Executioner or Improvisation, so there will be no boost to Dagger Training’s poison.

So I don’t see a Bleed on Backstab breaking anything. It will allow power Thieves to bypass some defenses, and it will give condition Thieves an actual reason to use Backstab.

I’m not saying it’s a great idea. But I certainly don’t see it breaking anything. Besides, as I said before, the Thief is in a bad state. It needs improvements. Even if a redesign/overhaul is in order, more improvements to gain competitiveness should be sought after. There is a long, long way to go before the Thief ever becomes “broken” in an overtuned fashion. Well, perhaps, except for the “perma-evade” Daredevil form. Never played it, and haven’t had much experience against it, so I cannot comment.

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BS already have 33% chance to apply Poison, Weakness, and +10% Damage against the target when traited with Dagger Training.

Adding bleed to that is just broken.

Broken? Yes. But in the opposite direction that you seem to imply.

First, it’s a 33% chance to apply poison. For an attack that can happen only once every 4 seconds, that’s rather pathetic.

An effect that has 50% chance to trigger on crit with 5s CD is very good but Dagger Training is “pathetic”? Whaat?

Second, you have to give up Mug which gives 100% chance to damage/heal… and may even out damage Dagger Training’s poison. On top of that, Steal will also give a 100% chance to apply poison, weakness, and +10% damage.

Given that I can go in stealth using CnD (as an example) 5x with 33% chance to apply poison before every get a chance to use steal again, I don’t think you’re looking at this correctly. Besides, even if I don’t take Mug, I still benefit from the poison on steal, so…this argument is moot.

Third, power Thieves have little reason to take Potent Poison over Executioner or Improvisation, so there will be no boost to Dagger Training’s poison.

Then why add bleed? Really confused now. The bleed on power Thieves is so low (22 dps base) it’s not even worth the Dev’s time to implement.

So I don’t see a Bleed on Backstab breaking anything. It will allow power Thieves to bypass some defenses, and it will give condition Thieves an actual reason to use Backstab.

Sorry, but I play condition Thief and I use Backstab and when that trait proc’s, it hinders heal and endurance regen. Adding bleed to that will only make things broken especially when bleed is already very easy to apply. Now add Rending Shade to that mix…I don’t want to be on the receiving end of that.

I’m not saying it’s a great idea. But I certainly don’t see it breaking anything. Besides, as I said before, the Thief is in a bad state. It needs improvements. Even if a redesign/overhaul is in order, more improvements to gain competitiveness should be sought after. There is a long, long way to go before the Thief ever becomes “broken” in an overtuned fashion. Well, perhaps, except for the “perma-evade” Daredevil form. Never played it, and haven’t had much experience against it, so I cannot comment.

The Thief’s brokenness relies on how effective it will be against other players. Sure now it may seem appropriate to just keep on adding damage to the Thief, but in the end, the Thief suffers because as a reaction from the Devs, they will buff the defensives of other professions — this is why power creep is a broken mentality. BS has issues, but never it’s damage. BS can deal a lot of damage and the only reason why we don’t see big numbers is because ArenaNet made it weak by making other professions tanky.

If they ever decided to nerf the defensives, BS with bleed will also get hit by the nerfed bat because it is broken, often to an unjustified level of nerf.

BS is weak in sPvP because the thief gets all its damage from traits which scale it up, rather than boons, which have fixed stats. Since sPvP’s stats are so inherently low, scaling means much less than just stacking 15 might and having naturally higher damage coefficients. I believe I’ve discussed this issue at length with Kageseigi before.

Go into WvW, and Backstab hits like a bus. Why? Because the scaling from traits starts working since PvE-baseline stats are so much higher, and thus boons get relatively nerfed as opposed to the core stat yields from gear. Put boons on it too, with all the scaling the thief has, and it can one-shot heavies.

That said, I don’t think DT breaks anything or is even a good idea for D/D condi in any way. Poison/Bleeding on backstab just won’t fix anything, either. DT is crap as it is. Really, it is. 33% chance on CnD, which has a repeated cast interval of at best 4s in WvW, and 100% poison duration, allows its poison uptime of just one permanent stack if CnD procs DT’s poison 100% of the time. Otherwise it’s averaging 33% poison uptime on a single stack of poison for at best 4 seconds. That’s absolutely horrible.

Rending Shade is also crap, both implementation and design. SA it too big of an investment at the moment considering thief is required to run Tr/DrD to be competitive, and sacrificing tons of damage and utility from DA for a chance at maybe ripping a few boons every so often just isn’t good. Want boon theft? S/D should be the premier choice, or run BT. It’d be good if the thief had Preparedness baseline, but then again you’re left with D/P dominating way too much, since it could swap Tr for SA and get more resilience, boon theft, stealth, and initiative improvements than Tr.

Condi D/D doesn’t need a little incentive to use other skills rather than so much as its damage forcibly spread to other skills, particularly in the wake of a necessary rework to DB and DD. Mashing 3 to win is stupid by concept, and given how easy and safe the build is to play, it shouldn’t exist at all.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t think you’re looking at this correctly.

I believe you’re making different arguments…

You said that adding a Bleed on Backstab would make it broken because of Dagger Training already gives Backstab a chance to apply poison, weakness, and 10% damage increase.

However, Dagger Training gives all Dagger attacks that same chance. Therefore, it is not a Backstab-specific issue. It is a matter of Bleeding. That is all. You could make the same argument about Death Blossom and it’s Bleeds in conjunction with Dagger Training.

And yes, speaking specifically about Backstab, a 100% chance to inflict Bleeding makes a 33% chance to apply poison really seem pathetic.

But even if Dagger Training can add that additional poison potential, you’re assuming that it will be chosen over Mug… which is a much more universal trait. Trading condition damage and denial of healing for direct damage and healing.

And yes, Stealing does give 100% chance to apply poison and weakness plus the 10% damage increase. So even without Dagger Training, you can still get 50% Lotus Poison uptime. And a Bleed on Backstab would also allow for the 10% damage increase as well. So much of Dagger Training’s potential is already redundant.

I do agree, though, if Revealed Training gave Might instead of a power increase… or even if Backstab (or Stealth Attacks in general) granted so much Might similar to Unload (at least after a successful hit), then all Thieves would benefit from it. Even power Thieves would be able to benefit better from Bleeding ticks on Backstab.

S/A needs a lot more work in order for Rending Shade to be considered in a build. Rending shade in and of itself not a bad idea but it does not qualify as a GM trait in current form. Added to that the 10 percent mitigation bonus for damage rarely kicks in. There just too many boons that are easy to reapply.

Rending shade needs something else as example.

A condition much like reveal inflicted on the target wherein for 5 seconds the person just subject to rending shade can not receive any boons either from others or from self. THAT would make it worthwile.

Another backstab suggestion. Make Shadowshot blockable and simply move unblockable to backstab.

Would arguably make things worse. Then you still have D/P BP -> HS -> SS -> BS being better than CnD -> BS because then D/P can gain stealth without worrying about blocks and still get backstab without worry of being blocked, while a blocked CnD negates the whole thing on D/D.

It’d make stab on D/P better while not changing anything on D/D, making the set further relatively weaker.

The likely best approach to CnD is breaking it down like Shadow Shot such that the attack produces an unblockable hit which causes the thief to gain stealth, with a separate damage source (not unblockable) for the damage. This way, good timing from a guard or whatever be it would still be rewarded by negating the damage, while not punishing the thief excessively for potentially proccing a passive.

The only beginnings of a fix is making CnD slighltly more consistent or accessible while also changing skills 3/4 and toning down the damage or upping the initiative cost on Shadow Shot.

As long its Rng base, i don’t mind. Kidding aside, could be nice if i gain Initiative lets say 1 or 2 Initiative gain when successfully hit a backstabbing skill. How i love my unique mechanic.

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t think you’re looking at this correctly.

I believe you’re making different arguments…

You said that adding a Bleed on Backstab would make it broken because of Dagger Training already gives Backstab a chance to apply poison, weakness, and 10% damage increase.

However, Dagger Training gives all Dagger attacks that same chance. Therefore, it is not a Backstab-specific issue. It is a matter of Bleeding. That is all. You could make the same argument about Death Blossom and it’s Bleeds in conjunction with Dagger Training.

And yes, speaking specifically about Backstab, a 100% chance to inflict Bleeding makes a 33% chance to apply poison really seem pathetic.

I don’t think so. Poison deals more damage than bleeding and it reduces healing power. Even a 33% chance to reduce healing power is never pathetic then adding damage to that makes it well worth it, even a single stack.

Steal has a base CD of 30s, CnD has an init cost of 6 (equals to 6s). Meaning, I have 5 chances to BS even before Steal goes off CD (this is assuming that I have zero init to start with). Steal requires Mug to deal damage. So in comparison, Steal that deal damage and applies 2 stack of poison every 30s is not even close to the damage output of 5 BS and 33% chance of poison.

Let’s assume that they add 100% chance of bleed on BS, ignoring for a minute that the OP is asking for “massive bleeding”, that would simply put BS’s damage output out of control. Keep in mind that Steal with Mug only deals ~500 damage every 30s (base), while BS can deal ~400-850 dmg every 6s. With this damage output from a single skill would mean that either the base dmg of BS gets nerfed, its coefficient, or other traits and skills. This is why power creep is bad.

But even if Dagger Training can add that additional poison potential, you’re assuming that it will be chosen over Mug… which is a much more universal trait. Trading condition damage and denial of healing for direct damage and healing.

As long as DT is available as on option, you cannot dismiss its potential.

I do agree, though, if Revealed Training gave Might instead of a power increase… or even if Backstab (or Stealth Attacks in general) granted so much Might similar to Unload (at least after a successful hit), then all Thieves would benefit from it. Even power Thieves would be able to benefit better from Bleeding ticks on Backstab.

Yes, stealth attacks granting might is the way to go. The +200 power from RT cannot be countered. At least the might stack is vulnerable to boon strip which is worth the risk and balances itself out.

EDIT: typos

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t think you’re looking at this correctly.

I believe you’re making different arguments…

You said that adding a Bleed on Backstab would make it broken because of Dagger Training already gives Backstab a chance to apply poison, weakness, and 10% damage increase.

However, Dagger Training gives all Dagger attacks that same chance. Therefore, it is not a Backstab-specific issue. It is a matter of Bleeding. That is all. You could make the same argument about Death Blossom and it’s Bleeds in conjunction with Dagger Training.

And yes, speaking specifically about Backstab, a 100% chance to inflict Bleeding makes a 33% chance to apply poison really seem pathetic.

I don’t think so. Poison deals more damage than bleeding and it reduces healing power. Even a 33% chance to reduce healing power is never pathetic then adding damage to that makes it well worth it, even a single stack.

Steal has a base CD of 30s, CnD has an init cost of 6 (equals to 6s). Meaning, I have 5 chances to BS even before Steal goes off CD (this is assuming that I have zero init to start with). Steal requires Mug to deal damage. So in comparison, Steal that deal damage and applies 2 stack of poison every 30s is not even close to the damage output of 5 BS and 33% chance of poison.

Let’s assume that they add 100% chance of bleed on BS, ignoring for a minute that the OP is asking for “massive bleeding”, that would simply put BS’s damage output out of control. Keep in mind that Steal with Mug only deals ~500 damage every 30s (base), while BS can deal ~400-850 dmg every 6s. With this damage output from a single skill would mean that either the base dmg of BS gets nerfed, its coefficient, or other traits and skills. This is why power creep is bad.

But even if Dagger Training can add that additional poison potential, you’re assuming that it will be chosen over Mug… which is a much more universal trait. Trading condition damage and denial of healing for direct damage and healing.

As long as DT is available as on option, you cannot dismiss its potential.

I do agree, though, if Revealed Training gave Might instead of a power increase… or even if Backstab (or Stealth Attacks in general) granted so much Might similar to Unload (at least after a successful hit), then all Thieves would benefit from it. Even power Thieves would be able to benefit better from Bleeding ticks on Backstab.

Yes, stealth attacks granting might is the way to go. The +200 power from RT cannot be countered. At least the might stack is vulnerable to boon strip which is worth the risk and balances itself out.

EDIT: typos

Except DT it isn’t worth considering. DT does less damage via poison on 5 backstabs at a 33% chance than steal alone. Its potential lies in not being in stealth while dealing lots of rapid attacks.

It is expected from DT that there would be at most, five instances of 2s poison being applied within the period of steal’s cooldown. The probability of 33% indicates overall that there would be 1.67 occurances of it. This net total damage equates to only just over three seconds of poison total over the course of 20 seconds.

Meanwhile, on steal alone, the poison uptime is almost 50% with two stacks of poison. Even if DT had a 100% chance of applying the poison on each backstab, the net gains from the downtime are still worse than the damage applied from steal alone.

DT is just a terrible trait. The only reason for its use is via the fast AA’s on dagger MH or spamming 3 more on DB for a a 3x 33% chance of application per given DB. Otherwise, the trait is just straight-up garbage.

RT providing might wouldn’t do much. Long-term might would make it overwhelming, as then people would just stack it on monsters/critters/etc. before engaging in combat, and you’d see a reversion to DA/SA might-stack dominance like there used to be years ago. If the duration is short, it nerfs the thief’s potential in PvE (while not hitting the more troublesome matters, the AA chain potency and poor skills), and it opens the thief up for little reason, plus, any substantial short-term boost would just further-emphasize D/P’s dominance via high-might-on-impact AA chains after post-Shadow Shot/Stab.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t think you’re looking at this correctly.

I believe you’re making different arguments…

You said that adding a Bleed on Backstab would make it broken because of Dagger Training already gives Backstab a chance to apply poison, weakness, and 10% damage increase.

However, Dagger Training gives all Dagger attacks that same chance. Therefore, it is not a Backstab-specific issue. It is a matter of Bleeding. That is all. You could make the same argument about Death Blossom and it’s Bleeds in conjunction with Dagger Training.

And yes, speaking specifically about Backstab, a 100% chance to inflict Bleeding makes a 33% chance to apply poison really seem pathetic.

I don’t think so. Poison deals more damage than bleeding and it reduces healing power. Even a 33% chance to reduce healing power is never pathetic then adding damage to that makes it well worth it, even a single stack.

Steal has a base CD of 30s, CnD has an init cost of 6 (equals to 6s). Meaning, I have 5 chances to BS even before Steal goes off CD (this is assuming that I have zero init to start with). Steal requires Mug to deal damage. So in comparison, Steal that deal damage and applies 2 stack of poison every 30s is not even close to the damage output of 5 BS and 33% chance of poison.

Let’s assume that they add 100% chance of bleed on BS, ignoring for a minute that the OP is asking for “massive bleeding”, that would simply put BS’s damage output out of control. Keep in mind that Steal with Mug only deals ~500 damage every 30s (base), while BS can deal ~400-850 dmg every 6s. With this damage output from a single skill would mean that either the base dmg of BS gets nerfed, its coefficient, or other traits and skills. This is why power creep is bad.

But even if Dagger Training can add that additional poison potential, you’re assuming that it will be chosen over Mug… which is a much more universal trait. Trading condition damage and denial of healing for direct damage and healing.

As long as DT is available as on option, you cannot dismiss its potential.

I do agree, though, if Revealed Training gave Might instead of a power increase… or even if Backstab (or Stealth Attacks in general) granted so much Might similar to Unload (at least after a successful hit), then all Thieves would benefit from it. Even power Thieves would be able to benefit better from Bleeding ticks on Backstab.

Yes, stealth attacks granting might is the way to go. The +200 power from RT cannot be countered. At least the might stack is vulnerable to boon strip which is worth the risk and balances itself out.

EDIT: typos

Except DT it isn’t worth considering. DT does less damage via poison on 5 backstabs at a 33% chance than steal alone. Its potential lies in not being in stealth while dealing lots of rapid attacks.

~snip~
DT is just a terrible trait. The only reason for its use is via the fast AA’s on dagger MH or spamming 3 more on DB for a a 3x 33% chance of application per given DB. Otherwise, the trait is just straight-up garbage.
~snip~

There you said it yourself, there’s a reason to consider DT, which invalidates your first statement.

D/D taking DT means their BS will apply poison. Adding “massive” bleeding to BS will throw D/D’s damage output out of control.

It’s that simple.

And a fast dagger AA and spamming it with DB have nothing to do with backstab at all. Backstab isn’t a fast attack or a multi-hit ability.

It doesn’t mean backstab will apply poison, either. It means a random hit will apply poison at some time, and the gained damage is negligible, barely better than using Mug from straight AA’s. I have a separate condi D/D thief that I made for kittens and giggles. I sometimes go many seconds of AA without landing DT’s poison. Other times, I’ll get multiple occurrences in a row. It’s random, and it typically takes a lot of ramp time to make the stacks deal maybe a few hundred tick damage over their duration in total. Much of the damage comes from just the default poison on the AA chain on dagger MH, and quite frankly, shortbow spamming CG does more poison damage than trying to utilize DT. Heck, I only run DT because I made the character named Poisoner Ivy for the Batman reference as a joke. The trait is awful, and does not affect the damage output of the thief. Even its use as a heal cut is trash, since steal and the AA of dagger MH provide extended-duration poison on their own.

I’m not even speaking on the context of having conditions on backstab. DT is just straight up a garbage trait; if backstab applied “massive bleeding,” whether or not it would be broken is entirely independent of DT, because DT would still be a terrible trait to take.

Since you’re forcing it, though:

“Massive bleeding” was never clarified. We have no idea what that means. 25 is massive, but that’s also obviously broken from just a condition damage build POV, and still has nothing to do with DT. “Massive” could mean five or six stacks, and maybe only for a few seconds at most. In many respects, that’s not much. particularly since pure condi is better off spamming 3 or playing pistol, and power power’s ticks would be horridly low to a point where it’s really negligible. Without condition damage, you’re looking at 22 damage per tick per stack. A few hundred extra damage won’t break backstab, considering PW/Unload/Vault hit harder from a coefficient POV by several hundred to several thousand damage when geared. 2s of 10 stacks of bleeding from backstab on a power build would be less than the difference between backstab and vault, even including the vuln applied from CnD. It’d take over 20 stacks for 2s duration to get there on lower-damage builds, or 10 stacks for 4 seconds. On real power damage builds, the backstab would need to apply roughly 20 stacks over 4-8 seconds to make up for the difference, in which case, yea, it’d be way too strong because condition builds would be doing an absurd amount of stealth-based damage with all the safety of stealth + tankier gear. But that makes the damage from DT on a lucky proc insubstantial.

Your argument isn’t based on anything coherent. DT is a horrible trait except as a best-damage option for condi PvE builds after they’ve run out of initiative and spam AA for poison stacks on a boss. The real source of damage comes from Potent Poison more than DT.

DeceiverX.8361:

And a fast dagger AA and spamming it with DB have nothing to do with backstab at all. Backstab isn’t a fast attack or a multi-hit ability.

It was about the point that “DT is not worth considering” that the preferred choice is Mug.

It doesn’t mean backstab will apply poison, either. It means a random hit will apply poison at some time, and the gained damage is negligible, barely better than using Mug from straight AA’s.

Again, not the point. The point is, DT is worth considering and because of that, bleeding with BS is an obvious power creep that D/D don’t need.

I have a separate condi D/D thief that I made for kittens and giggles. I sometimes go many seconds of AA without landing DT’s poison. Other times, I’ll get multiple occurrences in a row. It’s random, and it typically takes a lot of ramp time to make the stacks deal maybe a few hundred tick damage over their duration in total.

Again, it’s not about the DoT, the fact that poison also hinders healing is a very powerful debuff. On top of that, when it procs it will also apply weakness which is a debuff against endurance gain. Whether the proc is random or not, the fact is, when it did procs, it will break the set if BS also applies bleed. DB can already apply bleed stacks and 33% chance of poison+weakness, it’s not necessary to add bleed in BS.

Much of the damage comes from just the default poison on the AA chain on dagger MH, and quite frankly, shortbow spamming CG does more poison damage than trying to utilize DT.

Again, it’s about what you said that DT is not worth considering, which is fairly obvious now that it is.

The trait is awful, and does not affect the damage output of the thief.

It’s only awful because it’s dagger only. Poison is poison and it does what it does.

Even its use as a heal cut is trash, since steal and the AA of dagger MH provide extended-duration poison on their own.

Here we go again. In DA/CS/DD build, Steal happens every 30s. You’ll have to sacrifice a chunk of damage just to include Trick for the reduced Steal CD. Even then, it’s a poison that can proc multiple times within the 21s CD of Steal, or we can rely on steal for poison every 21s. I personally would pick a constant pressure than something that can be mitigated or cleaned every time it’s applied. Yes, once the poison from Steal is cleansed, your pressure is gone until Steal gets out of CD.

I’m not even speaking on the context of having conditions on backstab. DT is just straight up a garbage trait; if backstab applied “massive bleeding,” whether or not it would be broken is entirely independent of DT, because DT would still be a terrible trait to take.

I’ll assume for a moment that I agree with you and bleed is applied to BS, then DT has to go for balance sake. IMO poison is way way better than bleed, thus I do not agree with that solution.

Since you’re forcing it, though:

Forcing what? It’s the topic of this thread, not from me.

“Massive bleeding” was never clarified. We have no idea what that means.~snip~

Really now? Massive is a size big enough to a point of being broken. Take your guess.

Keep in mind that bleed can stack up to 1500. 25 stack is not massive relative to the max stack.

Everything else you posted has nothing to do with BS context anymore.

Your argument isn’t based on anything coherent. DT is a horrible trait except as a best-damage option for condi PvE builds after they’ve run out of initiative and spam AA for poison stacks on a boss. The real source of damage comes from Potent Poison more than DT.

As long as you’re finding an exception… your stance is wrong because the issue that’s being talked about is when that exception occurs makes BS out of control. Typical power creep.

You don’t even need Potent Poison as long as you gear correctly. It’s a good boost, but even without it, a full Dire set + Thorns can apply high damaging poison.

backstab should not be touched with any con type if anything backstab should be buff in becoming unblockable now that stealth move are not spamable but that stretching it a bit far.

please do not try to get thief nerf on adding random garbage to one of best burst skill in the game lol.

I never agreed with bleeding on backstab. Quite frankly, I don’t. I simply stated that DT wouldn’t break having “massive bleeding” on backstab; the “massive bleeding” itself would be what broke it, because in the context of “massive bleeding,” a single 2s stack of poison that may or may not happen is really not going to matter. Okay, it can cut a heal or endurance regen or whatever, but again, how does this matter? If the person fails to cleanse, which is the important part in this case, then the poison isn’t really relevant. If DT applies weakness, it means the thief never used steal (which would apply it first), or that the fighting has been going on for an extended period, since Lotus Poison has an ICD of 10s, which would make DT not apply weakness. In which case… it doesn’t really matter, considering within that 10s period, many instances of Death Blossom could be applied, statistically offering more poison, and likely, more bleeding.

As mentioned, we have no idea what the OP even means by “massive bleeding,” and obviously our definitions of it are different, which is what I wanted to clarify, and why I raised it to begin with. We’re not going to agree if our perceptions on an ambiguity are obviously vastly different.

If “massive bleeding” is enough to make a few ticks or seconds of it deadly enough such that a heal is required and gutted to such extremities by DT maybe happening, then the problem lies in the bleeding still, though, and not really in DT.