Guild Wars 2

Has anyone found a decent Mesmer counter since the latest patch?

DP
Get the drop on them and kill them in 1.5 seconds

DD
Whittle them down to nothing

emkelly.2371:

DP
Get the drop on them and kill them in 1.5 seconds

Just to clarify, that means don’t use CC! :-P

That trait that reflects cc is a pest.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

That trait that reflects cc is a pest.

You mean Pest Of Unusual Size???

That looks like an asura.

emkelly.2371:

DP
Get the drop on them and kill them in 1.5 seconds

DD
Whittle them down to nothing

No this doesn’t work vs a decent mesmer

Standard P/D condi build works wonder against them in WvW.
I wouldn’t call it a counter against them but it is a favourable match.
Either that or all Mesmers I meet are terrible.

I find the old core thief with SA to do the trick, can cause a bit of camping stealth though and be sure to run, improvisation the double Plasma is amazing against them.

Condi Shatter Chrono versions simply cannot be powered down quickly. Their armor and escape is too high. You can whittle them down but their condi pressure is real. I have found no way to consistently kill these versions as their healing/condi removal is strong, armor is well over 3k and condi output is high.

Stealth Shatter versions are difficult to pin down because they spend about half the fight invisible and smart ones simply use their clones as buffer until a thief over commits.

Power variants are indeed vulnerable if a thief gets the drop on them.

So what does all this mean… Strafe them, get distance, let them blow cooldowns and possibly chase a bit, then repeat. Getting into a prolonged fight with one particularly in a small area gives them a tremendous advantage.

I had no problem against mes (either condi or power) with S/P, Bound and Acro instead of DA.
Acro gives you faster steal recharge, more initiative, you have good AoE with PW (even evade) and Bound to kill clones (also sword AA cleaves 3 targets) and can use sword 2 to engage/disengage from safe (with additional 1 condi clear).
Also with PW you can proc more Pulmonary Impact and if you get pressured just use Black Powder and dodge for stealth (you have more endurance/initiative regen because Acro so using this combo to stealth isnt that much of a problem).
You have to use Withdraw to have an immob cleanse (if its on cd i just use Bandit’s Defense to block a burst or if im full health i use it so i dont have to waste my heal)

Condi Shatter is pretty easy to counter with Da/Tri/Sa running Trickster, Withdraw and Blinding Powder, using D/P, does require kiting for max effectiveness.

Escapist’s Absolution + Dodge + Shadow shot
Shadowstep + Hard stealth resets

You are by default a hard counter to mesmer, wait out and dodge their cooldowns, reset, let them have the point, and kill them 10 seconds later.

Backstab+Steal chunks them hard enough on resets (they arnt/cant be constantly blocking/distorioned)

They, like most classes, will beat you if you push the issue. lean back, soft reset, and you will win within 20 seconds. Don’t stand on them auto attacking and hope they don’t know how to use any one of their 6+ defensives, they do.

I sometimes wonder if we all play the same game. No build bursts down a Chrono Condi Shatter build that is played by a decent player. It simply cannot be done in a 1v1 setting. Mine is running with over 3300 armor. A jacked up thief with a crit on a Backstab is going to clock for maybe 5k with sigils. Funny enough landing that just got a LOT harder.

What a thief typically sees fighting one: Block, Block, Block, Evade, Evade, Evade, Invuln, Invuln, Invuln, Stealth, Rift return, start all over again.

As s/d I find condi chrono ‘easier’ but vice versa as d/p I find power chrono easier…

Yeah Straegen, I can’t burst good ones in a matter of a few seconds but the build I use is able to keep the condi pressure off of me long enough for me to either down them or to escape, still the fights don’t last more than 30 seconds either way.

This guy can’t deal with power shatter xdd so power burst mesmer bf he bursts you who gets off first wins.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Yeah Straegen, I can’t burst good ones in a matter of a few seconds but the build I use is able to keep the condi pressure off of me long enough for me to either down them or to escape, still the fights don’t last more than 30 seconds either way.

Not sure what server you are on but any time you want to duel and test that theory I am game. On BP right now.

The thief currently is the worst dueling class in the game hands down. Any Dire/Plex Chrono Mesmer that dies in 30s to anything straight up is a horrible player.

Straegen.2938:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Yeah Straegen, I can’t burst good ones in a matter of a few seconds but the build I use is able to keep the condi pressure off of me long enough for me to either down them or to escape, still the fights don’t last more than 30 seconds either way.

Not sure what server you are on but any time you want to duel and test that theory I am game. On BP right now.

The thief currently is the worst dueling class in the game hands down. Any Dire/Plex Chrono Mesmer that dies in 30s to anything straight up is a horrible player.

I’m on SoR, on NA,

In a pure duel, whittle them down. Burst, move back and around, kite the clones, then burst when the real one pops and isn’t in any of the plethora of defensive tools.

Most aren’t a real problem, even though it might not be worth the time if they play the class well.

If you die as a thief, you’ve over committed and/or failed to evade some stacks.

Hanza.6872:

If you die as a thief, you’ve over committed and/or failed to evade some stacks.

Problem is if they don’t commit, they cannot win. The heals are too strong to reset or back off. On almost every level the mesmer has the advantage except for running away. Thieves are exceptional at that skill (and I am very guilty of this tactic).

My opinion still stands, if the mesmer is a decent player the thief is at a massive disadvantage. If the mesmer is a very good player, the thief has a tiny chance of actually winning. Best a thief can hope for is a player that doesn’t pace their clones and unloads too much at the beginning. Mesmers that pace themselves are generally a draw at best for most classes.

I seriously struggle against Condi-Mesmers as D/P Thief (if they see me coming or have half-way decent reaction speed). There’s nothing critical to dodge/interrupt/blind. It’s insanely survivable/slippery, relentlessly stacks condis on spammable/low-risk skills, and has tons of sustain.

I may be doing it wrong – so please throw out tips. Mesmer was actually my first 80, so I thought I knew the class well enough, but I must be missing something given your experience.

Condition d/d using GI with some amount of healing (ie apothecary) and SOM will do a very good job on condi shatter mesmer.That said most will just run after a bit and it hard to chase them down in a d/d build and it hard to stick to them. The build works because the evades off the DB will kill clones, evade , heal and that healing with GI traited will keep a whole lot of confusion off and allow PR and escapists to remove the others.

The use of clones by the enemy is helpful to the thief here as the thief will get more evades and more heals via SOM keeping health >75 percent also constantly fueling escapists , driven fortitude and vigor/regen gain off the acro line. trait assassins reward as well and that a pile of heals on a dodge/evade.

Obviously if they a high armor build the armor will not work against conditions but the challenge is closing the gap on the real mesmer if they go to range.

A build I have been experimenting with is a high condition duration p/d build> The condition duration not so much for more damage ticks as it is to keep things like weakness and more importantly Immob on longer. He is selecting panic strike along with trappers respite and the needle trap along with impairing daggers. The intent is a pile of high duration immobs covered with other conditions. I did quite well against the few mesmers I faced in wvw but more testing needed. They have few things that deal directly with immob.

That’s awesome advice and makes good sense. Unfortunately, I refuse to be a part of the condi-spam problem.
:(

Blaqatak.1395:

That’s awesome advice and makes good sense. Unfortunately, I refuse to be a part of the condi-spam problem.
:(

Well if you want to fight with one hand tied behind your back it your choice. Condition “spam” is just a word and is really no different than power “spam”.

That said in a power set the best I have found to use is might stacking P/P using bounding dodger. I have base boon durations to 70 percent along with a sigil of concentration on the p/p set this pushing boons (might) to 100 percent when i swap to p/p in combat.

The combination of trickster escapists sigils on off hand staff set (staff with purity/generosity) for when I am close up and runes of leaderships gives Condi cleanse and yes he uses “power spam” switching between unloads, headshots and the AA of the staff when might stacked and the mesmer in range.

Another good off hand set here to use is d/p as once your might stacked you can use 3 to close to mesmer and hit him hard with the attack itself and the AA followup. generally he has burned some of his blocks on your unload by then. If haste one of your tricks and or you use flanking strikes , long lasting quickness can be kicked in to do more damage. (10 seconds plus of it with fury this also triggering a condition cleanse)

As an added bonus when you do your steal and consume plasma all of those boons can be increased in duration by 100 percent.

Blaqatak.1395:

I seriously struggle against Condi-Mesmers as D/P Thief (if they see me coming or have half-way decent reaction speed). There’s nothing critical to dodge/interrupt/blind. It’s insanely survivable/slippery, relentlessly stacks condis on spammable/low-risk skills, and has tons of sustain.

Yes. I believe most of the pro-thief advice in here are for fighting against weaker Mesmers. Run into a decent or better one and this is what you have to deal with. There is no “trick” that I am aware of. I duel against and with these Chrono builds for hours each week and still haven’t found a counter. They are ridiculously good 1v1 and excellent in skirmish. Even the new stealth variants with the Burn buffs have few counters when played decently.

Blaqatak.1395:

That’s awesome advice and makes good sense. Unfortunately, I refuse to be a part of the condi-spam problem.
:(

Condi spam doesn’t work against Chrono Condi. Their removal is crazy good. Before the Plex nerf my condi thief could only kill them if they made too many mistakes. Post Plex nerf, they are Teflon to condi. The shatter AoE condi removal and AoE heals are extremely strong. I can drop a Boon Duration Warrior running high Resistance up time and still hardly scratch a Chrono Condi.

babazhook.6805:

Blaqatak.1395:

That’s awesome advice and makes good sense. Unfortunately, I refuse to be a part of the condi-spam problem.
:(

Well if you want to fight with one hand tied behind your back it your choice. Condition “spam” is just a word and is really no different than power “spam”.

I appreciate that I am ignoring a potentially viable and relevant build.

However, I am going to play what I find fun, which is active damage – both dealing & receiving. I enjoy watching animations, timing evades/interrupts, getting in and bursting/making damage stick. There are more opportunities for misplay/outplay. When I die or kill someone, I want it to be because I didn’t dodge/interrupt x ability or I didn’t land y.

Spamming condis and watching buffbars is fundamentally uninteresting to me. Especially given the lack of active counter-play.
Maybe if they shortened the duration, upped the damage, and increased the CDs of things like confusion/torment there could be interesting counterplay. But currently, one side spams condis and the other just brute forces through it with condi-clear/sustain until the better build/gear wins.

Maybe I’m playing the wrong game – but I don’t particularly enjoy watching status bars, coming up with builds, or pumping out rotations. I like active combat with mind-games & outplay. I want every match-up to be 50/50 or at least 40/60.

Thieves have countered mesmers since the game came out and its still that way. Just be patient and abuse pulm impact. If you are dying to them you are likely choosing really bad times to open on them and wasting your dodges

thankitten.6307:

Thieves have countered mesmers since the game came out and its still that way. Just be patient and abuse pulm impact. If you are dying to them you are likely choosing really bad times to open on them and wasting your dodges

When are good times to open on them vs. bad?
What are you dodging?
What are you interrupting consistently to proc pulm impact?

I understand how to pull off when I see the block or the distortion. I know how to dodge shatters. However, I still wind-up with super AIDS before I can drop them.

Blaqatak.1395:

I understand how to pull off when I see the block or the distortion. I know how to dodge shatters. However, I still wind-up with super AIDS before I can drop them.

You aren’t missing anything. Ask anyone that duels regularly about how the Thief is performing and how the strong Mesmer builds are performing. The new hybrid condi/power build from Mesmers is just tearing through everything. The old Chrono Condi builds wreck most other classes. Even the SoI zerg builds are dangerous 1v1.

The only real counter you are going to find against a decent or better variant is to gang up on them or move on.

Oh and any Dare Devils not running Escapists against a condi Mesmer is cruising for a beating.

Going into PVP season… seeing that the shatter Mesmer monstrosity is going to be in every match…still can’t counter them with all the evades in the world. Seems like if I build to counter this meta, it leaves me open to getting destroyed by the other classes. Help?

PvP: i play generic d/p da/tr/dd, agi signet, shs, generocity runes, improv for double plasma, withdraw for torment removal. Interrupts and dodge INTO clones is key. Per usual, timing (use of withdraw, interrupts, plasma etc.) is everything for thief.

Can kill most mes with it. It does take long time to kill good mes (worth it, if they are attacking your point). Really good ones (cough Helseth, Misha, Frosty) won’t die to it however for obvious reasons.

thankitten.6307:

Thieves have countered mesmers since the game came out and its still that way. Just be patient and abuse pulm impact. If you are dying to them you are likely choosing really bad times to open on them and wasting your dodges

Nope.

Thieves haven’t countered mesmers since 2013

Azukas.1426:

Thieves haven’t countered mesmers since 2013

It could be worse. At release the Phantasms were so powerful all a Mesmer had to do was drop the Pistol one, stealth and watch everything melt.

Learn mesmer then be thf Uzumi and there easy counter!

Straegen.2938:

Azukas.1426:

Thieves haven’t countered mesmers since 2013

It could be worse. At release the Phantasms were so powerful all a Mesmer had to do was drop the Pistol one, stealth and watch everything melt.

Then Anet made minions Rally, and swung to the whole other side of the spectrum, I miss that week bahahahaha, when I was playing Mes it sucked but I could never be killed by a Mesmer.

Straegen.2938:

Azukas.1426:

Thieves haven’t countered mesmers since 2013

It could be worse. At release the Phantasms were so powerful all a Mesmer had to do was drop the Pistol one, stealth and watch everything melt.

Yes if a phantasm build ever becomes viable it will always be that way. For some reason Anet has a track record of making AI builds super powerful. The worst was the PU phantasm condi on clone death builds…..

Bring at least 3 condi clears against a mesmer. That, more than anything, will help you win.

I don’t run 3 condi clears in my build normally. But when I run across a mesmer who is running a strong condi build and is skilled I consider a reset to adjust my traits. All the torment and confusion flying around is too much without significant regular condition clears.

If only James Randi were here to help us.

D/P Trapper DA/SA/Trick Hybrid kills Mesmers. If you need condition cleanse, just drop a trap, then BS, then auto. Auto the clones too then drop a trap when they shatter. When they see that you’re not fazed…they’ll panic, make mistakes, then die. The idea is not to prema-stealth, but a to become a constant reminder that they’re failing to stop me.

Straegen.2938:

I sometimes wonder if we all play the same game. No build bursts down a Chrono Condi Shatter build that is played by a decent player. It simply cannot be done in a 1v1 setting. Mine is running with over 3300 armor. A jacked up thief with a crit on a Backstab is going to clock for maybe 5k with sigils. Funny enough landing that just got a LOT harder.

What a thief typically sees fighting one: Block, Block, Block, Evade, Evade, Evade, Invuln, Invuln, Invuln, Stealth, Rift return, start all over again.

Not to jack the thief thread but How does your mes have 3300? I’ve come across one that was tanky af and couldn’t figure out how.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Straegen.2938:

I sometimes wonder if we all play the same game. No build bursts down a Chrono Condi Shatter build that is played by a decent player. It simply cannot be done in a 1v1 setting. Mine is running with over 3300 armor. A jacked up thief with a crit on a Backstab is going to clock for maybe 5k with sigils. Funny enough landing that just got a LOT harder.

What a thief typically sees fighting one: Block, Block, Block, Evade, Evade, Evade, Invuln, Invuln, Invuln, Stealth, Rift return, start all over again.

Not to jack the thief thread but How does your mes have 3300? I’ve come across one that was tanky af and couldn’t figure out how.

Here’s one way: 3300

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Straegen.2938:

I sometimes wonder if we all play the same game. No build bursts down a Chrono Condi Shatter build that is played by a decent player. It simply cannot be done in a 1v1 setting. Mine is running with over 3300 armor. A jacked up thief with a crit on a Backstab is going to clock for maybe 5k with sigils. Funny enough landing that just got a LOT harder.

What a thief typically sees fighting one: Block, Block, Block, Evade, Evade, Evade, Invuln, Invuln, Invuln, Stealth, Rift return, start all over again.

Not to jack the thief thread but How does your mes have 3300? I’ve come across one that was tanky af and couldn’t figure out how.

Here’s one way: 3300

Looks like I need to shine up my condi thief/daredevil then. High tough but lower HP. My thief can utilize stealth with mass condi application.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Not to jack the thief thread but How does your mes have 3300? I’ve come across one that was tanky af and couldn’t figure out how.

I use a combination of Dire, Trailblazer, Undead runes and food. It has 24k health, 1800 Condi Damage and 30% Condi Duration. Those are the rough rounded numbers I might be off 50 points or so here or there. My thief runs 3200 with 23k health.

I openly hunt power thieves thinking they have an easy meal only to get completely loaded with condi for a limp Backstab.

Azukas.1426:

thankitten.6307:

Thieves have countered mesmers since the game came out and its still that way. Just be patient and abuse pulm impact. If you are dying to them you are likely choosing really bad times to open on them and wasting your dodges

Nope.

Thieves haven’t countered mesmers since 2013

They completely countered mesmer pre-hot. An equally skilled thief v mesmer, the thief wins 9/10 times. Its less so post HoT but still holds true. Yes a mesmer will obliterate a bad thief but thats not what I’m really referring to. If you took Sindrenner V Helseth, Sindrenner is winning almost every time.

I can give a few pointers but every situation is different. First off, if you are running bound, you are going to struggle imo. Run dash. A basic opening I would use is bassy venom into headshot into shadow shot. This will guarentee an easy opening and its incredibly safe (stunned+blinded), you don’t always have to open with a backstab. The next thing is if you are really strugling is to run withdraw. Most memser damage comes from torment and withdraw removes torment. As for the best time to open, obviously the safest time is when you have bassy venom up but engaging once every 40 seconds is obviously not enough. Try to keep pressure with headshot (pulm impact). Once I see that i’ve interrupted, thats usually when I engage with shadow shot. The combination of shadow shot damage plus pulm impact damage plus the blind will almost always put the mesmer on the defensive. If they have sword shield up, expect a shield 4 coming and be ready to stow weapon or even better, interrupt it with bassy venom. The biggest thing is to make sure you land you steal. Consume plasma gives resistance so if you mess up and get heavy condis on you, you can negate a lot of it (since the current meta build doesn’t run any condi duration) with consume plasma.

I would definitely recommend watching some of sindrenners stuff on youtube/twitch and see how he opens and uses pulm impact. Hope this helps some people

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Straegen.2938:

I sometimes wonder if we all play the same game. No build bursts down a Chrono Condi Shatter build that is played by a decent player. It simply cannot be done in a 1v1 setting. Mine is running with over 3300 armor. A jacked up thief with a crit on a Backstab is going to clock for maybe 5k with sigils. Funny enough landing that just got a LOT harder.

What a thief typically sees fighting one: Block, Block, Block, Evade, Evade, Evade, Invuln, Invuln, Invuln, Stealth, Rift return, start all over again.

Not to jack the thief thread but How does your mes have 3300? I’ve come across one that was tanky af and couldn’t figure out how.

Here’s one way: 3300

Looks like I need to shine up my condi thief/daredevil then. High tough but lower HP. My thief can utilize stealth with mass condi application.

3k+ armor is rampant thus I’ve abandoned power builds and favored condition/hybrid builds. It’s also a very effective anti-Mesmer because as power, you have a better luck winning the lottery than actually hitting a Mesmer and when you do, your damage is reduced to wet noodles.