Guild Wars 2

Travlane.5948:

also…guys…u cant call a weaponset spike, sustained, or condi on AA alone. :P

S/P doesn’t even know what “spike” is. It’s a sustained DPS weaponset. End of story.

S/P can be used to spike Interceptor.2653 I have seen google.#### play a S/P Spike build in a tournament with signets. Pre-casting PW then blinking to the target for the flurry. I watched him instantly bursting I believe Five Gauge (was definitely an engineer he was bursting) several times in the match. I will post the video if I find it. It was the one where they accused him of cheating and made him take a picture of his mouse and keyboard to send to them. It was shoutcasted by Blu if anyone has a video of that pls post so we can educate Interceptor on one of the more gimmicky S/P specs.

OIIIIIO.7825:

S/P can be used to spike Interceptor.2653 I have seen google.#### play a S/P Spike build in a tournament with signets. Pre-casting PW then blinking to the target for the flurry. I watched him instantly bursting I believe Five Gauge (was definitely an engineer he was bursting) several times in the match.

That’s fair enough, and I do something similar when I have 10 CS, but it’s pretty gimmicky and only works for one shot. The recycle on that maneuver is pretty long because of cooldowns. It doesn’t really define the weaponset, which in the other 99% of situations is sustained DPS.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

also…guys…u cant call a weaponset spike, sustained, or condi on AA alone. :P

S/P doesn’t even know what “spike” is. It’s a sustained DPS weaponset. End of story.

skills 2-5. show me what is sustained. im right you are wrong. nanaanana boo boo. :P lol i mean cmon u are doing the same as viking. point out why u think that. bc its just an opinion unless u back it up. or atleast TRY lol. omg its like 2nd grade in here.

dagger auto attack is similar to sword but a tiny bit faster. i guess dagger is sustained too. lol. hrm… pistol …. well thatssustained too i guess bc it has condi and 1500 per direct attack for auto attack. yup. all sustained. all auto attacks are sustained i suppose.

Travlane.5948:

skills 2-5. show me what is sustained.

Skills #2, 4 and 5 don’t have damage worth making hay over.

Skill #3 has all of its damage backloaded on the end of the skill. You can’t get there without going through the wind-up, stun, and aftercast recovery of the first hit (which doesn’t hit very hard).

Skill #1 is in the same situation as Pistol Whip, the biggest hit is at the end of the chain, and it has a considerable windup.

omg its like 2nd grade in here.

Enough with this, please. If you keep getting infracted, you’re eventually going to get banned.

Travlane.5948:

dagger auto attack is similar to sword but a tiny bit faster. i guess dagger is sustained too.

Dagger has Backstab, which is about as bursty as you get, since you have other hard-hitting things to combine it with.

Nobody is running around plowing targets with Tactical Strike.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

dagger auto attack is similar to sword but a tiny bit faster. i guess dagger is sustained too.

Dagger has Backstab, which is about as bursty as you get, since you have other hard-hitting things to combine it with.

Nobody is running around plowing targets with Tactical Strike.

Shadow shot hits pretty kitten hard too – pretty close to the last hit of S/P and sword auto? Dagger is definitely more bursty but lacks the mobility of sword #2 which to me means that D/P is a bit riskier with higher rewards while sword builds put out better sustained damage with a little bit less through better mobility/escape mechanisms.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

skills 2-5. show me what is sustained.

Skills #2, 4 and 5 don’t have damage worth making hay over.

Skill #3 has all of its damage backloaded on the end of the skill. You can’t get there without going through the wind-up, stun, and aftercast recovery of the first hit (which doesn’t hit very hard).

Skill #1 is in the same situation as Pistol Whip, the biggest hit is at the end of the chain, and it has a considerable windup.

omg its like 2nd grade in here.

Enough with this, please. If you keep getting infracted, you’re eventually going to get banned.

now thats whati was looking for. somethign with meat i could respond to. skill 1 with zerk build is 2800 2800 4800 roughly (crits). dagger is considered a burst set but does less dmg….although…. it doest it slightly faster. so id say it almost balances out. would u call dagger sustained dmg too? CND is all back end. BS takes 3-4x longer than PW bc it requires a few things. stealth, run behind opponent, strike successfully. with pistol whip its almsot always used with immob or infil sig or steal or SS. never really spammed so i wouldnt call it back endheavy in the sense that using it ….u never wind up next to the opponent…atleast not while visibile.

1) same DPS on Auto attack as sword (slower but higher dmg which balances)
2) PW is a burst skill and takes less time setting up then BS
3) 2 4 5 have no dmg to talk about really and no conditions that deal dmg

basically to say ….thief has onlY SB as a sustained dmg. poison+bleeds+spike dmg + aoe dmg + CC + ricochet on skill 1 (aa). u can keep using the SB without stopping to do dmg. with sword you need to BPS or dodge or use IR or evade with PW etc etc. with SB u just 1 1 3 4 2 1 1 3 1 etc. u just keep going with the dmg.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

dagger auto attack is similar to sword but a tiny bit faster. i guess dagger is sustained too.

Dagger has Backstab, which is about as bursty as you get, since you have other hard-hitting things to combine it with.

Nobody is running around plowing targets with Tactical Strike.

id call its spike…. burst is more like combo spike dmg…while spike is single hit high dmg. i know there is room for differentiation in definition as it its loose jargon that doesnt have a rightful place in the OED . anyway backstab requires perfect conditions and skill to set up. sword is just whack away + gap closers and immobs. both dagger and sword are burst. niether of them stand a competitive chance at sustained condi dmg. both require either high stealth or high evades or a mix of both. while p/d which is a more sustained set for dmg. i never stay stealthed more than 1 sec just to fire off sneak attack. yet it holds its defense and is constant dmg (aka sustained) even when im not attacking or am invis.

• all comments above are in combat examples… or else all weapons could be burst or sustained if u dont have to dodge/heal/evade or block etc.

For Clarity

Auto attacks are sustained damage because you can continually do them without stopping. To phrase it another way you can use auto attacks for an extended period of time without interruption. While an auto attack may may not be the best damage, by definition auto attacks are sustained damage.

OIIIIIO.7825:

For Clarity

Auto attacks are sustained damage because you can continually do them without stopping. To phrase it another way you can use auto attacks for an extended period of time without interruption. While an auto attack may may not be the best damage, by definition auto attacks are sustained damage.

gr8 point. this is why i said u define a \weaponset as burst or sustained by skills 2-5.

since PW is the only dmg skill and its a flurry of about 2 secs (point of impact to last point of impact) for 6-10k dmg…. depending on build. thats alot…. and only in 2 secs. that is about 3-5k dmg per sec. there is about a 1 sec precast too but even if u coutn that bc u dont use gap closers like steal/infil signet or infil strike or immobs….its 2000-3300 dmg per sec.

OIIIIIO.7825:

For Clarity

Auto attacks are sustained damage because you can continually do them without stopping. To phrase it another way you can use auto attacks for an extended period of time without interruption. While an auto attack may may not be the best damage, by definition auto attacks are sustained damage.

The difference, however, is that Sword has AoE cleave in AA, whereas Dagger is extremely single-target. It’s your job to win the team fights, so it’s a good idea to have some decent AoE cleave. Shortbow works as well, but I find it more a utility in stopping rezzes and AoEing the point to shatter clones and down stealthed opponents.

Travlane.5948:

would u call dagger sustained dmg too?

Only the autoattack, for those times when you’re actually using it as something other than filler.

BS takes 3-4x longer than PW bc it requires a few things. stealth, run behind opponent, strike successfully.

Oh please. PW takes just as long because you have to open the GW2 client and log in first.

Burst damage is measured from the alpha hit, not some random point in the past chosen to flatten out the time for the sake of your silly definitions. When you execute a Backstab combo, you are throwing out a huge amount of damage in a small amount of time, and CnD forces non-damage downtime at the end. That’s what burst damage is.

never really spammed so i wouldnt call it back endheavy in the sense that using it

It doesn’t really matter what you call it, because it is what it is. Pistol Whip’s wind-up and recovery force time into your damage rotation. Outside of gimmicky wombo-combo setups, PW takes time to deal damage, and as stated previously is not necessarily your BnB damage skill in the first place.

basically to say ….thief has onlY SB as a sustained dmg.

This is nonsense. Shortbow has sustained damage, but so does Sword. that word “sustained” does not imply “flat”. Pistol Whip auto-evades, and manual dodges are short duration and fast recovery. A graph of your damage does not need to resemble a plateau. The difference between S/P’s and D/x Backstab playstyles, and the resulting damage distribution, is pretty straightforward.

Travlane.5948:

anyway backstab requires perfect conditions and skill to set up.

It requires that you hit someone from the side/back with Dagger #1 while stealthed. It’s not rocket science. Thief has an kit designed around helping you create the opportunity for this. It’s just a matter of execution.

Dahkeus.8243:

Actually, as D/D, I use all 5 skills. 5 and 1 are still the bread and butter, but HS is for when targets are 1/3rd hp or less or when you just need to travel around. 3 is an extra evade for clutch moments and a handy clone buster vs mesmers. 4 is an occaisional snare and often a good way to apply basilisk before you opponent expects it. I use 4 with basilisk a lot to stun an enemy before they can contest a point.

However, having your timing right is really what makes the difference between people who pick up D/D for the first time in PvP and shortly write it off and the people who pull it off successfully. Being able to chain CnDs without triggering revealed is often key to winning a lot of fights, particularly since coming from stealth, then landing CnD -> backstab with basilisk is such good burst that is very hard to counter.

Thank you, something I was looking for. Also, D/D in sPvP? I thought that was bad as well because you can’t cap points.

All other posts up to this point were helpful in helping me understand this set better. I realize I was playing it wrong.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

anyway backstab requires perfect conditions and skill to set up.

It requires that you hit someone from the side/back with Dagger #1 while stealthed. It’s not rocket science. Thief has an kit designed around helping you create the opportunity for this. It’s just a matter of execution.

nobody said it was. in an explanatory sense, yes its easy. but against a real opponent of decent to great skill? very hard. i cant rember the last time i was backstabbed.

either way PW is a burst skill. its just silly to call it sustained dmg.

Lamuness.3570:

Dahkeus.8243:

Actually, as D/D, I use all 5 skills. 5 and 1 are still the bread and butter, but HS is for when targets are 1/3rd hp or less or when you just need to travel around. 3 is an extra evade for clutch moments and a handy clone buster vs mesmers. 4 is an occaisional snare and often a good way to apply basilisk before you opponent expects it. I use 4 with basilisk a lot to stun an enemy before they can contest a point.

However, having your timing right is really what makes the difference between people who pick up D/D for the first time in PvP and shortly write it off and the people who pull it off successfully. Being able to chain CnDs without triggering revealed is often key to winning a lot of fights, particularly since coming from stealth, then landing CnD -> backstab with basilisk is such good burst that is very hard to counter.

Thank you, something I was looking for. Also, D/D in sPvP? I thought that was bad as well because you can’t cap points.

All other posts up to this point were helpful in helping me understand this set better. I realize I was playing it wrong.

It depends on what you’re playing and how you play. D/D is a high mobility build with strong 1 v 1 capabilities. If you’re in an organized tPvP group, it won’t give as much to team fights, but in solo Q, it can be really good for quickly taking points guarded by non-bunkers. If a point is guarded by a bunker, you’re better off going somewhere else since you’ll just end up in a long drawn out fight where they hold capture due to your reliance on stealth.

If you play smart with it though, it’s a solid build with distinct advantages for the right playstyle in the right setting.

Also….do we really need this much deliberation on whether we want to call PW a burst skill or not? lol.

Yo guys!
Don’t know about NA but in EU (1-50) S/P works great. I made few vids about S/P before “stun-fix” and now I’m making new one.
IMO, when it comes to real play, not on paper, all weaponsets have its uses, but in current meta the build that shine is the one that can be UTILIZED.
And stun/daze (utility tools actually) is what make S/P viable against any other spec/class because it is about how you read the game, and how you counter-play: there is a stun, there is a dodge, interrupt, blind field, and lots of jailfree cards, at least in my build.
So S/P is about staying in combat and D/P is about picking the right one. Hope we all understand it!

Interceptor.2653:

Enough with this, please. If you keep getting infracted, you’re eventually going to get banned.

And that would be bad?

Sometimes I drop squishies in WvW with one PW (mostly scrubby Thieves), sometimes – but most good players have better reactions than a training dummy. As long as they have an evade in them, they’re going to get away before you get any real damage in – S/D is a better burst set (and still inferior to dagger), for real – it’s why I have it on swap (I like to swap often for Quick Pockets/Sigils of Battle, but never lose my IR when it’s up).

You need to bait the rolls, interrupt the big attacks, hang in there until the opening comes – if you blow your load straight away you’re going to get a beat-down, or get kited to death.

But:

This set crushes all melee builds other than D/P Thief, and that’s a 50/50 fight – if you can manage the blinds you’ll probably win that too. Interrupts/blinds/immobs, out the wazoo. Your damage sucks, but if you play perfectly they shouldn’t land a hit – I lose sometimes, to good players who had a right to win, but I still always think after: ‘I could have done something differently and won’, never do I feel I didn’t have the tools to win, but that I failed to use them properly – that’s not always true on my other characters (always something on CD, not enough interrupts etc).

IMO, S/P is too predictable on it’s own – and if you want to pew-pew, roll Engi/Ranger – a good melee swap makes the build sing. I’d recommend either S/D or D/D to be able to keep up the pressure on-swap, and keep things from becoming too stale (hmm, I wonder what he’ll do… maybe PW/Mug? Again? Surprise them by using Black Powder/swap/Death Blossom/Heartseeker/Backstab, or when they squeak away from your PW swap-cancel and Heartseeker for the coup-de-gras, etc).

Kiting/condition builds kitten with your life, they’re not fools, they’ll just put a puddle of nasty AoE down and wait for you to throw yourself into it like a sucker – that’s the anti-Thief meta in a nutshell, and that’s why Scorpion Wire is your first utility slot, always – plenty of time to cast PW after you hook your fish, and they pick themselves up off the ground just in time to eat it (you’ve got so much time you can whiff the stun completely if over-zealous). Also, it’s great for educating people to not /laugh from on top of tower walls, and stomp-denial.