Guild Wars 2

So I’ve got a chance to play wvw with my “balanced” thief spec in wvw… Not a lot, but some.

30SA
10DA
30CS

I went with mug for a little extra dps instead of mobility.

D/D + S/D as usual.

First, I want to state that I don’t think stealth should have ever got a nerf. If I were in charge I would have said “Fix culling first, then let’s talk about thieves.” I truely believe and still believe culling was the only fix to stealth we needed.

Yes, thieves abused culling and didn’t even know it. The reason half or more of the people could never see us is because every time we stealthed we re-entered the “culling queue”. We would also render late on the enemies screen.

Pre-patch, when I saw a zerg, I didn’t care. I knew any kind of stealth would save me and put me into culling problem.

Post-patch, when I see a zerg, I freaking run. The second they get close to me all 100 people are throwing everything they have at me.

I haven’t had a chance to try to fight in the back fields in a large zerg fight yet, but I imagine I will get toasted in seconds.

I honestly feel that the difference between 3s revealed or 4s revealed literally change nothing about how I play 1vX, but add too many people and I will have to retreat or die where as before, culling saved me.

About the 4s revealed. ANet, why? I am having to relearn my rotation of skills all over again. I have screwed up my CnD countless times because I am so used to the 3s vs. the 4s.

3s revealed allowed for 1 auto-attack chain from sword or dagger, then you could use CnD. It was easy and it made a lot of sense to me for this 3s timer. I was very much used to it and if I screwed it up I died.

Now, it’s 1 auto-attack chain and then 2 or 3 more from dagger. You literally have to stop in the middle of your chain to use cnd. That makes no sense to me. Same thing with sword. You swing 4 times with sword, which is 1 auto attack chain plus another swing.

Seriously, imagine if ANet changed all the timer on your classes rotation and that the new rotation made absolutely no sense skill wise. That’s what it feels like to play a thief now.

Maybe it’s because I used to play a thief before change and new players won’t have this problem, but I really feel awkward on my thief now and I have no idea when to land my CnD anymore. I’ve screwed it up countless times because there is no good way to tell when to pre-cast it.

This is all for wvw, in spvp I believe there is only one viable build, pure dps. I have respec to a modified jinzu build. I believe the changes made to thief have only pushed me more into a burst build rather than a balanced build.

sPvP the thief has a lot of problems. There are tons of build where the thief can stay alive but under performs in dps and staying power. There is only 1 build where a thief can take out any class in 2-3s, assuming they don’t get a good stun break off. In 1v1 this build is terrible, but in a spvp environment it’s great because you can kill people already engaged with easy and use shortbow to escape/evade until your timers come back up.

sPvP the condi thief got nerfed really hard. Why? I thought ANet said they wanted to improve the condi thief. Any other build which is going to be S/X or D/X is going to be more of balanced build usually. There are plenty of burst builds for those but nothing beats D/D jinzu in burst. The balanced builds just don’t have the dps or the defense to really do a lot. Thief can negated by 1 ability most of the time because we are so weak. I really think this patch just enforced the “Play thief as burst or don’t play thief at all” mentality in spvp.

People cry so hard in hotjoins when I play my thief. I destroyed this elementalist like 3 times and he thought thieves were OP. I would mug him to 50% and kill him with the BS. Wouldn’t even need haste. If he was a good ele, I would never be able to kill him. He’s probably complaining to ANet right now at how hard he got owned and ANet will probably listen.

I predict, burst thief going to get nerfed next.

EDIT: Long read, I know. Sorry!

My hopes are that they have more mobility plans for us. They seem to want thieves relying less on stealth and more on being “slippery,” at least according to what they said in the SotG, so hopefully those changes just weren’t ready yet. This nerf may not have been so bad if they opened up more mobility to offset the negatives, but so far all we got were negatives.

The nerf itself isn’t so bad, but it wasn’t needed.

The nerf makes playing the thief feel awkward due to the fact that your skill rotation now happens in the middle of an auto-attack chain instead of at the end of one.

EDIT: I don’t really think ANet thought this change out. I never thought for once they would add an extra second to revealed.

I thought the 3s was on purpose because that’s how long it took to complete an auto-attack chain.

Now, every single person who uses stealth as a thief has to re-learn how to play the game. Is that really something ANet wants to do to it’s players? If I were a developer that would be the last option possible it telling a huge selection of players to relearn how to play the game.

I can’t believe they have nerfed thieves this hard but my elementalist can down people in 1v5 and stomp them while I have 2 warriors spamming HB on me…

All while never going invisible once…

I have around 1,3k hours on my thief and played a lot of different builds (my main being 0 / 20 / 30 / 20 / 0 Sword Dagger build, which is still viable) and i have to say a nerf was justified, stealth builds were really really strong and needed to be toned down.

But i disagree in how it has been nerfed, 4s revealed cripples fluid gameplay and that is never a good thing. Combat was really really fluid before this and a lot of fun but thats not the case anymore. Dont get me wrong i still love my thief and it’s definetly not broken now but it feels unfinished.

Yea, I don’t feel like the class is “broken”.

I liked how you put it kittenzlenit when you used the word “fluid”. The class does not feel fluid anymore, it feels awkward to me.

kittenzlenit.7648:

I have around 1,3k hours on my thief and played a lot of different builds (my main being 0 / 20 / 30 / 20 / 0 Sword Dagger build, which is still viable) and i have to say a nerf was justified, stealth builds were really really strong and needed to be toned down.

But i disagree in how it has been nerfed, 4s revealed cripples fluid gameplay and that is never a good thing. Combat was really really fluid before this and a lot of fun but thats not the case anymore. Dont get me wrong i still love my thief and it’s definetly not broken now but it feels unfinished.

Do you ever kill anything besides Wolves in WvW?

So, I think ANet should rework thief class so that auto attack chain ends at 4s or right before so that we can auto and then CND and not waste time unstealthed.

I think they should give us like a 4th in chain or something on sword MH and dagger MH. Maybe give it cool proc or extra damage to make up for our recent nerfs.

This would complete the thing and make it feel whole again. Dagger/Dagger is awkward to play with right now.

Since Anet is not known for reverting changes, it seems unlikely that they change revealed back to 3 secs.

What I would hope for though is changing some minor traits in the shadow arts tree. Just take last refugee, shoot it, stab it, hang it, drive over it with a car, cut it into tiny pieces and burn it…. and then make a new minor trait which reduces the revealed time for one second.
Now either put that minor trait in 5 points in shadow arts, or switch it with meld with shadows. That way we can have fluid gameplay again which is stealth centered and at the same time get rid of last refugee.

“not fluid”, “broken”, “i have to completely relearn how to play the thief” – oh wow, now we have to wait for 2 more hits in auto attack. this is so bad, this is so wrong, this is so unplayable. the increased duration of 1s of the revealed buff is just too much.
/sarcasm

My thoughts on thief post patch is this, i am a P/D D/D thief and i did a good amount of damage with Bleeds and poison and can survive in a 1 v 5 Fight if i did not mess up or get CC cuz other then that it took like 4-5 hits to kill me and that was good before the patch, now it takes 4 Secs to get back into stealth and by that time i have taken way to much damage and i am bleeding +poison + burn my HP has never Drop so fast before the patch. another thing all my gear that took me 4 months to acquirer that includes the 65 Lurals i spent to have Condi gear is now for noting i am not getting those point or gold back. i have never complain about other Classes Ever from the 1 shot thief s to the Berserker War with his Stun in to 100 Blade 2 move kill. all i did was learn from it and find ways to get around it, if they got me with what ever then that is my fault cuz i messed up or let it happen. But this with this Patch i don’t even wanna play my thief anymore i don’t feel like trying to re-figer out how to play a thief or Buy / Farm for new gear just cuz i have to Re-build my traits and gear.

knyy.6427:

“not fluid”, “broken”, “i have to completely relearn how to play the thief” – oh wow, now we have to wait for 2 more hits in auto attack. this is so bad, this is so wrong, this is so unplayable. the increased duration of 1s of the revealed buff is just too much.
/sarcasm

I’m just gonna assume you don’t play a thief at all. Ignorance at its finest. Anyways, yeah, it isn’t unplayable, but that’s not the point. The point is how combat chains and combos flow and the flow is kittened due to an extra second. After playing a thief for so long, you eventually get used to 3 seconds. So with that extra second, for example, I waste 6 initiatives on CnD because of the habit, or I mean, tendency to use CnD after 3 seconds. For the guy who said you’d have to relearn the class, it’s partially true. I gave up on my p/d build because I lose an extra 6 stack of bleeds in dps and wasted alot of time experimenting like I did when I first started PvP. The whole backstab build and glass cannons isn’t how I’d like to play, I’d rather be able to stay in a fight and not have to back out after popping my cool downs on one person for the initial burst.

After they broke the aggro-stealth tables now we get +1 sec releaved , PvE how do you feel ?

People trying to /sarcasm does not help. Im gonna start betting that the next nerf will be mug in prolly 1 month no.. I take it back 2 months. I’ve been playing my thief main from the early beta’s , it’s a pain to receive such a treatment on a monthly basis. The only solution is to reroll since these nerfs will never stop.

knyy.6427:

“not fluid”, “broken”, “i have to completely relearn how to play the thief” – oh wow, now we have to wait for 2 more hits in auto attack. this is so bad, this is so wrong, this is so unplayable. the increased duration of 1s of the revealed buff is just too much.
/sarcasm

Yea my thoughts seriously.

Did you not read my part where the class doesn’t feel broken because of the 4s?

What feels broken is that when using D/D the time of your CND literally falls during the swing of an auto-attack and screws up the entire timing ?

My wvw has been totally unaffected. I still pretty much stomp whoever i decide to target, zerg or not. I still pull all the same stunts i always have, and still get away with them. rush into the back of a zerg and annihilate whoever i pick out. The only issue i have is the PvE. it is pretty junked up. Rotation feels awkward as all hell, and it just isn’t FUN to use. feels wrong. needs a polish if anything. not to mention the dps drop making it nearly impossible for me to find dungeon farm groups that will take me over a warrior now. i think it is unfortunate. The original stealth nerf was a much better idea if you ask me or any other experienced thief. Kind of a shaem. i feel like the more skill capped thieves have been punished for no reason, while the original problem cnd spammers are still getting away without a scratch.

Question

How does it suck for pve yet not suck for wvw?

Do you switch your build for pve?

Jinks.2057:

Question

How does it suck for pve yet not suck for wvw?

Do you switch your build for pve?

S/D (or D/D) PvE builds with SA in them rely on [cnd(which applies blind/regen/+initiative if traited)>tactical/backstab>1 auto attack chain>cnd>…] rotation. In WvW, unless people are kitten and stay in 1 place while you keep on blinding and slicing them, landing a cnd exactly after the chain is finished isn’t always possible.
The extra 1 second makes the pve rotation either take 2 full auto attack chains, lowering the survivability and damage, or 1 full auto attack chain and 2 hits… lowering again the survivability and damage. Our support too, if you regard aoe blinds as party support.

Leohart.4610:

knyy.6427:

“not fluid”, “broken”, “i have to completely relearn how to play the thief” – oh wow, now we have to wait for 2 more hits in auto attack. this is so bad, this is so wrong, this is so unplayable. the increased duration of 1s of the revealed buff is just too much.
/sarcasm

I’m just gonna assume you don’t play a thief at all. Ignorance at its finest. Anyways, yeah, it isn’t unplayable, but that’s not the point. The point is how combat chains and combos flow and the flow is kittened due to an extra second. After playing a thief for so long, you eventually get used to 3 seconds. So with that extra second, for example, I waste 6 initiatives on CnD because of the habit, or I mean, tendency to use CnD after 3 seconds. For the guy who said you’d have to relearn the class, it’s partially true. I gave up on my p/d build because I lose an extra 6 stack of bleeds in dps and wasted alot of time experimenting like I did when I first started PvP. The whole backstab build and glass cannons isn’t how I’d like to play, I’d rather be able to stay in a fight and not have to back out after popping my cool downs on one person for the initial burst.

maybe you are the ignorant one. i have 2 thieves. one with world completion and another one will hit 80 soon, too. thieves arent strong or good in pve, thats granted. but they are just (too) strong in wvw, spvp its okay but just because you cant conquer a point with stealth.

they are far from unplayable or broken. the +1s revealed is a minor stealth nerf.

I agree with the op. I don’t think they are broken, but they could have waited till the culling fix before they thought about nerfing stealth. It’s hard enough to get past all the defensive buffs and into position to do any damage .

knyy.6427:

Leohart.4610:

knyy.6427:

“not fluid”, “broken”, “i have to completely relearn how to play the thief” – oh wow, now we have to wait for 2 more hits in auto attack. this is so bad, this is so wrong, this is so unplayable. the increased duration of 1s of the revealed buff is just too much.
/sarcasm

I’m just gonna assume you don’t play a thief at all. Ignorance at its finest. Anyways, yeah, it isn’t unplayable, but that’s not the point. The point is how combat chains and combos flow and the flow is kittened due to an extra second. After playing a thief for so long, you eventually get used to 3 seconds. So with that extra second, for example, I waste 6 initiatives on CnD because of the habit, or I mean, tendency to use CnD after 3 seconds. For the guy who said you’d have to relearn the class, it’s partially true. I gave up on my p/d build because I lose an extra 6 stack of bleeds in dps and wasted alot of time experimenting like I did when I first started PvP. The whole backstab build and glass cannons isn’t how I’d like to play, I’d rather be able to stay in a fight and not have to back out after popping my cool downs on one person for the initial burst.

maybe you are the ignorant one. i have 2 thieves. one with world completion and another one will hit 80 soon, too. thieves arent strong or good in pve, thats granted. but they are just (too) strong in wvw, spvp its okay but just because you cant conquer a point with stealth.

they are far from unplayable or broken. the +1s revealed is a minor stealth nerf.

You misunderstood. I said that I assumed you don’t play a thief, and that itself, the comment, not you, is ignorance at its finest. Why would I call you ignorant out of the blue? I’m not as low to assume how people are based on their comments. Conquer a point with stealth? I find myself in multiple 1 v X whenever I go for a point since I usually attack side points and leave the center to my team whether they go for it or not. I’ve win multiple 1 v X and depending on the players, especially good players, I have a hell of a time taking them down. I know when to quit and leave the fight so I rarely die. Plus, you can’t conquer a point while in stealth, just so you know, if you meant it in a literal way. Sure, they may seem far from broken or unplayable to you, but you already implied that in your sarcasm. Builds are still viable, however, the damage they do now is not as great as it used to be.

Pavel.8531:

Jinks.2057:

Question

How does it suck for pve yet not suck for wvw?

Do you switch your build for pve?

S/D (or D/D) PvE builds with SA in them rely on [cnd(which applies blind/regen/+initiative if traited)>tactical/backstab>1 auto attack chain>cnd>…] rotation. In WvW, unless people are kitten and stay in 1 place while you keep on blinding and slicing them, landing a cnd exactly after the chain is finished isn’t always possible.
The extra 1 second makes the pve rotation either take 2 full auto attack chains, lowering the survivability and damage, or 1 full auto attack chain and 2 hits… lowering again the survivability and damage. Our support too, if you regard aoe blinds as party support.

I know this but you say the extra second doesn’t affect PvP b/c people dodge….that makes literally NO sense.

There is ALWAYS someone or something to CnD for stealth in PvP

Meh I honestly don’t notice much difference. Obviously the timing is different on the rotation now as to when you can attempt a CnD but I can’t really see how its something that people wont just adjust to. I mean if you always reliably got a Cloak and dagger on someone most of the time using a “rotation” then you fought people that don’t know how to fight thieves and culling was the reason why you landed it “on time”.

I been running P/D in WvW and even in sPvP yesterday and I didn’t have any issues. I even had a ranger say he reported me for exploiting rofl guess cause I wasn’t running the “Meta” thief sPvP burst glass build that his bunker build is suppose to roflpwn.

The timing is off on the cloak and dagger I agree there but I think if you are noticing a difference in WvW its because you appear as soon as you cause damage now. You can still troll and 1vX better than most classes out there in WvW you just have to be more careful about your exit strategy and sloppy play and mistakes get punished.

I mean before you basically had 5-6 secs of stealth now you actually have 2-3 thats bigger than the extra reveal buff time.

Jinks, please note I said “exactly after the chain is finished”. I am not saying there are no things to CnD. In that meaning, 3 or 4 seconds revealed doesn’t matter. While in PvE you always know you will hit the milisecond revealed runs out.

Pavel.8531:

Jinks, please note I said “exactly after the chain is finished”. I am not saying there are no things to CnD. In that meaning, 3 or 4 seconds revealed doesn’t matter. While in PvE you always know you will hit the milisecond revealed runs out.

This is my problem with the current system. What you claim happens in pve, because it doesn’t happen with D/D right now.

The revealed wears off during the middle of an attack. If you want to time it perfectly, you lose either dps from not attacking (sometimes hard to do) OR you actually have to stay visible for about another second turning the nerf into a 5s debuff.

Not a cool thing to do to a class imo that was previously had near perfect synergy of skills or “fluidity” as it was called.

A fight should feel FUN, not wierd. The feeling of the thief after patfch is not as fun atm.

I’m personally not complaining about 4s. I don’t think it was needed, but it’s there. Fix the rotation. Fix the fluidity. Keep the 4s.

EDIT: As a band-aid fix I would even be happy if they turn D/D and S/D auto-attack chain into a 3.5 chain or whatever it was previously just +1s. That way I watch 3 attacks go off, then I change my play style.

They way it is now. I feel I am spamming auto-attack way too much. Mashing 1 button over and over.

Auto-attack needs to be synergized with stealth and currently it is not.

EDIT #2: Sorry, just wanted to add that X/P or shortbow is not affected by this. Only X/D stealth builds are.

The only X/D that still feel “fluid” is p/d since it doesnt have auto attack chain. 100 % bleed time helps a bit to fight increased reveal to keep bleeds up. So imo now there is left only 2 viable builds for pvp ( not awkward, noone likes playing awkward builds ) – p/d condi ( allthough VERY LOW dps and not rly viable in spvp becouse of low bleed timer w/o food) or full glass d/d 25/30/0/0/15… gg anet.

Karolis.4261:

The only X/D that still feel “fluid” is p/d since it doesnt have auto attack chain. 100 % bleed time helps a bit to fight increased reveal to keep bleeds up. So imo now there is left only 2 viable builds for pvp ( not awkward, noone likes playing awkward builds ) – p/d condi ( allthough VERY LOW dps and not rly viable in spvp becouse of low bleed timer w/o food) or full glass d/d 25/30/0/0/15… gg anet.

lol are you serious? Have you actually played p/d before the nerf for a good bit? because it is awkward as hell for me now with the extra second on reveal. I use to be able to play aggressively with p/d but now I’m tripping on a lot of CnD. VERY LOW? not really, the dps can be decently high once you stack some bleeds. Builds are still viable, just has less damage in the long run now. You can use foods in sPvP too? hmm, odd.

And the chain was this: CnD>Sneak Attack>2 auto. Rinse, repeat, also throw some utilities in there as well, like caltrops. Now: it’s CnD>Sneak Attack>3 auto. That extra auto provides quite a window to get CC-ed.

Leohart.4610:

Now: it’s C&D,Sneak Attack,3 auto. That extra auto provides quite a window to get CC-ed.

It’s much worse than simply waiting 1 more auto. It’s closer to an extra 1.5 autos.
And that is very difficult to time. If you want to ensure it won’t fail, you have to not only wait for a third auto, but a 4th.

And that turns out to be a significant DPS loss.

phor.7952:

Leohart.4610:

Now: it’s C&D,Sneak Attack,3 auto. That extra auto provides quite a window to get CC-ed.

It’s much worse than simply waiting 1 more auto. It’s closer to an extra 1.5 autos.
And that is very difficult to time. If you want to ensure it won’t fail, you have to not only wait for a third auto, but a 4th.

And that turns out to be a significant DPS loss.

I tested it out and yeah, it’s about a little over 3 auto before you can CnD. If you hit CnD DIRECTLY after the 3rd, you just wasted 6 good initiatives.

Who knew a single second added to reveal could alter so much yet at the same time so little. The same builds are still put into play, just takes longer to kill and execute combos. It screwed the flow of combat and the long term damage decreased, yet you still see thieves go in and out of stealth. This nerf does not sit right with me.

P/D i think is going to feel this nerf the most because they rely on being in stealth the most for defense.

I haven’t tried out P/D since patch yet tho.

I think as far as D/D and S/D go they are fine just need to time it properly, and the current timing sucks, but we can get used to it.

They add +1 second on stealth reveal and players rage. Fighting d/p thieves has been great all week.

Its a start but one can but hope there are more nerfs to come.

Leohart.4610:

Karolis.4261:

The only X/D that still feel “fluid” is p/d since it doesnt have auto attack chain. 100 % bleed time helps a bit to fight increased reveal to keep bleeds up. So imo now there is left only 2 viable builds for pvp ( not awkward, noone likes playing awkward builds ) – p/d condi ( allthough VERY LOW dps and not rly viable in spvp becouse of low bleed timer w/o food) or full glass d/d 25/30/0/0/15… gg anet.

lol are you serious? Have you actually played p/d before the nerf for a good bit? because it is awkward as hell for me now with the extra second on reveal. I use to be able to play aggressively with p/d but now I’m tripping on a lot of CnD. VERY LOW? not really, the dps can be decently high once you stack some bleeds. Builds are still viable, just has less damage in the long run now. You can use foods in sPvP too? hmm, odd.

And the chain was this: CnD>Sneak Attack>2 auto. Rinse, repeat, also throw some utilities in there as well, like caltrops. Now: it’s CnD>Sneak Attack>3 auto. That extra auto provides quite a window to get CC-ed.

Yes i did play p/d before, and i did try it now. With all the range and allmost perma dodging if build right those 3-4 autos out of stealth isnt such a huge deal. Never said that u CAN use foods in spvp. Meele/D builds aint broken, but as it was mentioned … gameplay aint fluid anymore…

Karolis.4261:

Leohart.4610:

Karolis.4261:

The only X/D that still feel “fluid” is p/d since it doesnt have auto attack chain. 100 % bleed time helps a bit to fight increased reveal to keep bleeds up. So imo now there is left only 2 viable builds for pvp ( not awkward, noone likes playing awkward builds ) – p/d condi ( allthough VERY LOW dps and not rly viable in spvp becouse of low bleed timer w/o food) or full glass d/d 25/30/0/0/15… gg anet.

lol are you serious? Have you actually played p/d before the nerf for a good bit? because it is awkward as hell for me now with the extra second on reveal. I use to be able to play aggressively with p/d but now I’m tripping on a lot of CnD. VERY LOW? not really, the dps can be decently high once you stack some bleeds. Builds are still viable, just has less damage in the long run now. You can use foods in sPvP too? hmm, odd.

And the chain was this: CnD>Sneak Attack>2 auto. Rinse, repeat, also throw some utilities in there as well, like caltrops. Now: it’s CnD>Sneak Attack>3 auto. That extra auto provides quite a window to get CC-ed.

Yes i did play p/d before, and i did try it now. With all the range and allmost perma dodging if build right those 3-4 autos out of stealth isnt such a huge deal. Never said that u CAN use foods in spvp. Meele/D builds aint broken, but as it was mentioned … gameplay aint fluid anymore…

I thought the food part was implied. Built right? What do you mean, because I can get 3.2k+ armor yet have low hp and still die as quickly as having 2.2k armor with high hp. I’m talking about sPvP, and in sPvP, if you’re playing against good players, it doesn’t mater how many dodges you take because you’re probably going to miss quite a few CnD. Again, against good players. Either that, or even if you get a CnD to do your rotation, they’ll put a lot of pressure on you, making you pop all your cool downs and eventually leave the fight. That’s from personal experience though since I ran into a few players that knew how to deal with thieves. But most of those were 1 v X and it depends on what class you’re up against too.

after that update i stopped playing all together – felt like i was forced to try something else, not what i was into – i WASNT forced though, but i felt obsolete and worthless after that patch. nerf to my healing, and dps. and i dont even use D/D, in fact i think mindless idiots use d/d ( offense intended ). changes shouldnt have been made at all to wvw/pve tbh, only sPvP because of the strict reason WvWvW is monstly Zerg this and Zerg that to the point of stealth wont really bloody matter anyway when your gonna either BE in the zerg killing or trying to hit something/running fro ma zerg ( which they’ll catch you eventually)