Guild Wars 2

Yes, it has been mentioned before, but let’s take another shot at it.

F3 Key: Stealth Toggle
When not in Stealth, enters Stealth.
When in Stealth, self-Reveals.

However, simply adding a toggle may very well be pushing the limits of balance even with all of the Reveal methods that are out there now. So let’s add some limits.

The following changes will NOT change anything with the current methods to enter Stealth. Every current way will remain as it is today. The following will ONLY affect Stealth applied from the F3 toggle.

1. Entering Stealth costs 5 initiative. There is a 1 second cast time to enter Stealth, and it CAN be interrupted.

2. While in Stealth, all natural initiative and endurance regeneration is set at 0. No skills will cooldown while in Stealth.

3. Remaining in Stealth will cost 1 initiative per second.

4. Any direct damaging attack received will remove Stealth from you.

5. Exiting Stealth by using the F3 toggle will cost 1 initiative and apply Revealed to you (also affects Stealth from normal methods).

Shadow Refuge will still have a use for team Stealthing and healing, and it along with other normal methods will also allow initiative and endurance regeneration.

The Stealth Toggle, however, will allow Stealth access for any Thief build. After all, Stealth is in every Thief’s nature, though he can choose to not use it.

With a full15 initiative, it will cost 5 initiative to enter, leaving you with 10 seconds of possible Stealth. If you allow it to run out, you will be left with no initiative, so you will be at a disadvantage in a fight, and you will also not be able to use the toggle to Stealth for another 5 seconds. If you self-Reveal yourself early, you will not be able to Stealth for another 3-4 seconds, keeping you from abusing the toggle.

Thoughts? How can this be balanced further?

EDIT:
Removed the initiative cost to self-Reveal via the F3 toggle.

Kageseigi.2150:

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1. Entering Stealth costs 5 initiative. There is a 1 second cast time to enter Stealth, and it CAN be interrupted.

2. While in Stealth, all natural initiative and endurance regeneration is set at 0. No skills will cooldown while in Stealth.

3. Remaining in Stealth will cost 1 initiative per second.

4. Any direct damaging attack received will remove Stealth from you.

5. Exiting Stealth by using the F3 toggle will cost 1 initiative and apply Revealed to you (also affects Stealth from normal methods).

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Not sure if troll or something. According to your condition nobody will use Stealth at all.
Like really? Stealth coast initiative and you cant regenerate it?
Wtf man?
You toggle it, get to the enemy, backstab->run away because you dont have initiative to keep fighing.

You must be really troll or have low IQ.

No thanks! gimme instead this, 1200 range gun or/and some defensive stuff.

Zdenny.2704:

Not sure if troll or something. According to your condition nobody will use Stealth at all.
Like really? Stealth coast initiative and you cant regenerate it?
Wtf man?
You toggle it, get to the enemy, backstab->run away because you dont have initiative to keep fighing.

You must be really troll or have low IQ.

I’m starting to think you are attempting to counter-troll… or you missed something in my post.

I said that initiative regeneration will ONLY stop if Stealth is entered via F3 toggle. It will also cost initiative to remain in Stealth ONLY when it is entered via F3 toggle. That is needed in order to assure there is no perma-Stealth.

If you enter Stealth by other means (Shadow Refuge, Cloak and Dagger, Blinding Powder, Leap Finisher, etc.), initiative regeneration will not stop. Stealth will not cost initiative to maintain. Those means of Stealth already have set durations.

The F3 toggle is advantageous in that it allows a Thief another means of accessing Stealth regardless of equipped weapon set. It is disadvantageous in that it is easily breakable/interruptible, costs initiative to enter/maintain, and doesn’t allow a Thief to reset skills.

The main purpose is to give weapon sets other than Dagger/Pistol an initiative-based method to enter Stealth on demand, allowing condition removal and health regeneration if traited, while not completely throwing the Thief out of balance.

Still useless, if traited you get 15 initiatives, toggle coast 5 so you can get 10 sec of stealth wich is nice, but then again you backstab then you must run away because you dont have any initiation left. (Not counting with skills like Roll for initiative etc.)
The meaning of this toggle skill is to hide from enemy and run away safely.
Its completly useless during the fights cuz you dont get anything out of it. If they randomly hit you its lost along with the initiation you spend in that toggle steath. And in other cases the normal stealth is way too better and you get nore benefits for it.

Im sorry, but from your description it shows it could be used only in one scenario, whis is:
Oh, look an enemy! Let’s hide so he cant kill me while I run away!

And anyway even it that case the normal stealth is just better.

Whats the purpose to have to different kinds of stealth?

To any Thief who does not have Dagger/Pistol equipped, it allows Stealth Attacks based on initiative instead of utilities.

A X/Dagger Thief will not have to connect with Cloak and Dagger to enter Stealth to get a Backstab/Tactical Strike/Sneak Attack. A Sword/Pistol Thief can enter Stealth to get Tactical Strike or make Pistol Whip easier to land. A Shortbow Thief can enter Stealth to use Surprise Shot. A Staff Thief can enter Stealth to use Hook Strike.

It also allows them to enter Stealth on demand using only initiative in order to benefit from Shadow Arts traits. Only Dagger/Pistol can do this currently. An X/Dagger Thief still has to hit an enemy with Cloak and Dagger. Shortbow requires an off-hand Pistol and a weapon swap.

It allows all Thieves to be able to run without Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, or Hide in Shadows just to gain the benefits of Stealth.

A Thief will not be required to use all of his initiative. 5 initiative to enter stealth is not a high cost. It will allow a Dagger/Dagger Thief to get a Backstab without having to connect with Cloak and Dagger. It will allow a Dagger/Pistol Thief to get a Backstab without having to use 9 initiative just to enter Stealth with a Black Powder+Heartseeker combination.

If you are a Dagger/Pistol Thief, and you are in the middle of a fight, you can Stealth for 5 initiative then Backstab the target within 2 seconds. The total cost is 7 initiative… cheaper than 9.

Yes, it can also be used to run away… just as Shadow Refuge, but without being stuck in a small area for 4 seconds. It can be used to sneak up on someone to get a Backstab with Basilisk Venom. It can be used with Roll For Initiative to sneak into a fight and not be left without initiative.

There are many ways it can be used. It has its advantages as well as disadvantages.

Again, think of a Dagger/Dagger or Pistol/Pistol Thief. If they get condi-bombed, they will be able to use Shadow’s Embrace and Shadow’s Rejuvenation while staying well out of harm’s way or blowing important utilities.

So saving 2 initiative along with randomly revealted on hit, stop cd and natural regeneration in stealth with 1sec cast time + interruptable + coast while invis is much better than normal stealth for 9 initiative?

Anything like this doesnt worth to toggle this stealth on, I rather sacrifice 2 initiative and have much higher chance to make succes whit stealth.
Sorry but your concept is so bad, self- yourself revealed yes please, the rest is pointless
And a stealth on p/p or sb is not such profitable. And anyway there are ways hoe to get stealth all the time, utilities, traits, combos with other playmates.

Very cool idea! In addition to providing greater access to stealth openers, it would give non-D/P builds a reliable way of leaving a fight and sneakily decapping a point in sPvP or avoiding a group/zerg in WvW. It would also make it easier to drop Shadow Refuge in favor of something more helpful in a fight. You’ve included plenty of limitations, particularly the 1s cast time, and trade-offs to help keep it from being too strong.

Zdenny, if you’re going to criticize someone because you don’t think they’ve done something well, you should at least attempt to criticize them well. Right now you’re just asking to be ignored.

Kageseigi.2150:

4. Any direct damaging attack received will remove Stealth from you.

This ruins it. It cost too much and it’s inferior to other means to gain stealth.

If it cost 5 initiative to go in stealth, the stealth should at least last 5s before it start costing 1init/s. Otherwise, what’s the point of this mechanic if it only punishes the Thief?

It would be a waste of resources to implement this kind of, no offense, useless mechanic.

Maybe you should explain the goal of this mechanic first.

What is it trying to accomplish?

The costs are too high and would make no one use it. A stealth toggle is a nice suggestion though. I’d like a simple 1s stealth with a 5-6s cool down (instant cast) to use whenever, or a trait that made you stealth 1s every 5s.

So, you can’t use it in combos because of the cast-time, you can’t use it to engage because you’ll have no initiative when the fight begins and you can’t use it to escape because of the reveal on hit. Why waste time creating this?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maybe you should explain the goal of this mechanic first.

What is it trying to accomplish?

The objective is to give all Thieves access to Stealth on demand based on initiative regardless of weapon set and utilities in the same way that every Thief has access to Steal.

Whether or not that method of Stealthing is used or not is up to each player. But the point is that they have it at their disposal.

Why does it seem so limited or expensive? Because it is being added on top of a system already in place without changing anything, meaning it needs to be balanced with the existing system. At its core, it is on-demand Stealth on a 5 second cooldown. If traited, that is clearing a condition every 5-6 seconds. It is negating 25% damage of an attack every 5-6 seconds. It is also a potential Stealth Attack every 5-6 seconds.

It is an easy-access to Stealth that any Thief has. It is not meant to be a crutch. It must be used wisely. But another reason for its “weaknesses” is because I do not believe the current methods of Stealthing should become obsolete. They should have their own advantages because they require more sacrifice…

Blinding Powder costs 40 seconds and a utility slot.
Shadow Refuge costs 60 seconds and a utility slot, and it puts you at high risk for 4 seconds.
Hide in Shadows costs 30 seconds plus uses up a Heal.
Hidden Thief costs 20+ seconds and uses up Steal.
Cloak and Dagger costs 6 initiative/seconds and must make strike an opponent in melee range.
Black Powder + Heartseeker costs 9 initiative/seconds.
Black Powder + Cluster Bomb costs 9 initiative/seconds plus a weapon swap.

In short, the F3 toggle is not meant to be the main method of Stealthing during combat, but it can be used as one if needed. It is certainly better than nothing in the case you’re not using Dagger/Pistol. Its main purpose is to give every Thief a method to access Stealth on-demand when there is no target around or if the Thief must run away from combat. For example, a non-Dagger/Pistol Thief just got condi-bombed, and is getting low on health. It can Stealth as it runs away in order to cleanse conditions and heal up without having to blow a utility.

But yes, it could be used offensively. A Dagger/Dagger Thief with Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet on cooldown could use the F3 toggle to enter Stealth at range and then avoid or dodge through enemy attacks in order to get a Backstab. If the Thief is quick, it would cost about the same as a Cloak and Dagger. If the Thief is not quick, he is not limited by a set duration, but only by his remaining initiative.

As for the costs and balances, nothing MUST be a certain way. Anything is open to change. After thinking about it, I would remove the initiative cost to self-Reveal. I could also see decreasing the cast time slightly. As for the losing Stealth on receiving a direct damage attack, that’s also up for tweaking. Again, it is only losing Stealth, not applying Revealed. But if there is no losing Stealth on taking a hit, that’s fine with me… after all, I am a Thief… and it also means less coding.

Kageseigi.2150:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maybe you should explain the goal of this mechanic first.

What is it trying to accomplish?

The objective is to give all Thieves access to Stealth on demand based on initiative regardless of weapon set and utilities in the same way that every Thief has access to Steal.

If this is the goal, then simply have Hidden Thief be part of Steal.

Nice job. Very well done. Take a good idea and potentially very useful utility, and offer it with such conditions that no one will use it. No, I’m not being sarcastic. You could be a dev.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If this is the goal, then simply have Hidden Thief be part of Steal.

I definitely would not complain about that happening.
Though it is still a 20+ second cooldown and limited to 3 seconds.

Hidden Thief does not give more engagement options to a Dagger/Dagger Thief. It may save 6 initiative on a Cloak and Dagger, but Steal is already one of the main gap closers to combine with Cloak and Dagger. An F3 toggle would allow the Thief to use Stealth to close the distance every 5-6 seconds while gap closers are on cooldown.

With Hidden Thief, a ranged Thief (Pistol/Pistol or Shortbow) would need to deselect its target first before using Steal in order to stay at range, then re-select the target before attacking. An F3 toggle would allow a simple press of the key while having the target selected for a Stealth Attack every 5-6 seconds.

And again, an F3 toggle would allow a Shadow Arts Thief to clear a condition every 5-6 seconds initially (for 5 initiative), and another condition every 3 seconds afterward (3 initiative).

It’s all about adding to the Thief’s toolbox, not changing or removing anything. If someone doesn’t like it, they don’t have to use it… just like Steal. Personally, I could use something like this to great effect in numerous situations.

An F3 toggle would be a short(er)-cooldown means to Stealth that can be short-term or long-term based on the player’s choice. It could be similar to a ranged “Cloak and Dagger” on a 5-second cooldown or an individual’s “Shadow Refuge” on a 15-second cooldown. It is based on initiative which is what makes it unique, and though it causes limitations, it also provides versatility.

If it’s too weak, then change it up. Decrease the cast time. Decrease the initiative cost. Only half the initiative/endurance regeneration instead of eliminating it completely. Only slow skill cooldowns instead of stopping them completely. Maybe even give it its own unique benefits such as Resistance. There are ways to make it worth using.

It’s basically 10 seconds of Stealth every 25 seconds. When traited, that’s a lots of condition removal, a lot of healing, a lot of speed (Fleet Shadow). But because it comes at a price, it does not promote Stealth camping.

If they are to implement a toggled stealth, all other methods to gain stealth will need to be obsoleted since we don’t really need two different stealth mechanics. Then this toggled stealth needs to be streamlined, meaning it won’t be as costly as you have posted otherwise no one will be using it.

A toggled stealth that cost nothing for the first 3s then 3s CD per 1s in stealth is added to this skill beyond that.

So for the first 3s, the stealth is free with zero CD if you get out of stealth before the 3s mark. If you stayed for 4s in stealth, this F3 toggle will have a 3s CD. If you stayed for 5s in stealth, this will have a 6s CD. And so forth.

I think this is more reasonable without the ridiculous punishments.

I’m certainly not against a Stealth overhaul.
I’m just working to adapt to what we have now.

But yes, if the current methods of Stealth were removed or allowed to become obsolete, then a Stealth toggle would be free of many such restrictions as mentioned.

Unfortunately, it’s up to ANet to decide whether they will make any changes at all.