Guild Wars 2

The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.

You have flooded the game with all kinds of stealth removal in such a blatant and bad way that you might as well get rid of stealth all together. Stealth needs to be reliable. It simply lasts too long and you have given these classes NO other survival method. So you end up with a bunch of cry babies about stealth which you crumble to and bring out the nerf bat.

The approach to balance stealth is way out of balance. Would you put in a remove all armor for 6 seconds skill that only stealth classes could use? Of course not…but yet you have done exactly that.

When Beta becomes non-beta will probably be the start of the end of the game as it was for Shadowbane. Soon as they introduced vampires….bloop bloop bloop…game over.

Here is a challenge to the game developers…ask people if they could choose a non-expansion server would they play on it. I know I would select that server over the bug fest that is approaching.

Do this poll as a sticky and you will be shocked at how many people dread the expansion.

Or perhaps you could try non zerk/stealth builds hmmmm?

“It simply lasts too long and you have given these classes NO other survival method”

Better yet ASK for more non stealth worthy builds/mechanics!

New beta characters are game breaking = thieves can’t stealth long enough to survive?

Skeletor.9360:

The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.

How is that “a fact”? It’s common for players to use stealth as the primary mechanic in a number of situations in all 3 game modes, but it’s hardly the only tool in their belt. Use the BETA to see what other tricks they have up their sleeves.

Definitely have to go with, try a different build that doesn’t rely exclusively on stealth.

Skeletor.9360:

The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.

You have flooded the game with all kinds of stealth removal in such a blatant and bad way that you might as well get rid of stealth all together. Stealth needs to be reliable. It simply lasts too long and you have given these classes NO other survival method. So you end up with a bunch of cry babies about stealth which you crumble to and bring out the nerf bat.

The approach to balance stealth is way out of balance. Would you put in a remove all armor for 6 seconds skill that only stealth classes could use? Of course not…but yet you have done exactly that.

When Beta becomes non-beta will probably be the start of the end of the game as it was for Shadowbane. Soon as they introduced vampires….bloop bloop bloop…game over.

Here is a challenge to the game developers…ask people if they could choose a non-expansion server would they play on it. I know I would select that server over the bug fest that is approaching.

Do this poll as a sticky and you will be shocked at how many people dread the expansion.

i think the real problem is that Anet tried to do something new with stealth and base stats and it ended badly.

stealth in other games is near perma with a single vanish. this is good for players who play the stealther, good for the victims, and good for the developer.

• its good for the victim because they can manage expectations. if a thief has one vanish, he can use it for 1 runaway attempt, OR 1 attempt at re-bursting. thats it. if he double bursts and it doesn’t go well, the victim knows it has the rogue-class committed to the fight for good, and if he doesn’t re-open, the victim can be reasonably sure the fight is done at least until vanish resets.
• its good for the developer because they can balance around the rogue-class staying in the fight.
• its good for the rogue-class because they still have advantage of picking fights and escaping or even stacking the odds heavily in their favor. they also get the derivative benefits of being balancable, because with a known amount of stealth they can be given a good amount of survivability.

in GW2, with unlimited in-combat restealthing, Arenanet sold the cart before the horse. They made a class that is annoying at best to fight against, which makes that part of the game not enjoyable for nearly everyone. they made it literally impossible to predict stealth time, so thief survivability out of stealth has to be kept at garbage levels in order for unlimited re-stealth to be balanced. that in turn ruins all non-stealth thief builds, because survivability is made so poor that no amount of dodge bars or teleports will bring them up to par. its stealth or die.

the alternative of course, is to buff thief survivability, but then we’d have a class that can stealth at anytime and fight well out of stealth just completely dominating the game and that is gamebreaking for everyone else and bad for the state of many game modes (aka the present PU mesmer).

the only ways that I see to un-kitten the system so to speak, is either to abandon it all together, or to buff thief survivability to mesmer levels while introducing serious anti-thief/mesmer counter classes. engi and ranger don’t accomplish this because no one is going to use the guardian or engi tools for reveal and its probably fair to say that thieves arent too scared of a solo ranger with “Sic Em” equipped. Revenants though, those might be the missing ingredient cause everyone is going to be Herald.

tl;dr: GW2 stealth was doomed from the start. More reveal is a prelude to thief durability buffs, but that wont happen until reveal is an abundant counter. Its possible that time is near, but we wont know until it actually happens and then you’ll probably have to suffer for a balance patch to get the buffs you deserve.

Skeletor.9360:

The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.

You have flooded the game with all kinds of stealth removal in such a blatant and bad way that you might as well get rid of stealth all together. Stealth needs to be reliable. It simply lasts too long and you have given these classes NO other survival method. So you end up with a bunch of cry babies about stealth which you crumble to and bring out the nerf bat.

The approach to balance stealth is way out of balance. Would you put in a remove all armor for 6 seconds skill that only stealth classes could use? Of course not…but yet you have done exactly that.

When Beta becomes non-beta will probably be the start of the end of the game as it was for Shadowbane. Soon as they introduced vampires….bloop bloop bloop…game over.

Here is a challenge to the game developers…ask people if they could choose a non-expansion server would they play on it. I know I would select that server over the bug fest that is approaching.

Do this poll as a sticky and you will be shocked at how many people dread the expansion.

So… you’re saying that stealth is too powerful, but then babies cry… but it shouldn’t be nerfed because thieves aren’t powerful enough? Who are “these classes” when you’ve only mentioned one?

To anyone else who is confused, I’ll explain what is going on. The thief forum is currently the one of the whiniest forums right now. What is going on is everyone is having a gigantic circle pity, where they each compound and reaffirm how bad each other feels until it goes to “END IS NIGH!” levels. Because of this you get a lot of aimless and nonsensical complaints on other forums, many times being factually incorrect or utterly myopic.

So, what is the real problem with the thief currently? Well, this comes from two sources. June 23rds hit thieves hard, due to Anet’s desire to end the dodge spam meta. Several key things were nerfed regarding thieves as a hope to balance out a class that could out-duel any other given perfect play.

#1: Initiative regen was nerfed slightly in many places. These several “slight nerfs” accumulate and make it so all but very specific specs had their functionality cut.
#2: The Acrobatics line was gutted so badly that it is unquestionably the worst line in the game. Again, fear of the perma-dodge meta.
#3: With the removal of damage stats of traits, the normally high offensive thieves are now more in-line with other classes as far as offensive stats go.

This has left thief without many options, given that thieves now have only a single viable defensive line: Shadow Arts. This has lead to thieves being more stealth dependent than ever before. With elite specializations comes the Sneak Gyro, a rather sub par skill but nonetheless useful in exactly one way: Detection Pulse renders all stealth tactics useless for a time. While this skill is useless against most classes, mesmers and thieves are hit quite hard by it. Mesmers, have alternative forms of defense and are capable of engaging at range.

Thieves don’t and can’t. Well, to a degree, anyway. They’ve still got blinds, immobilize, and weakness. But the important thing is, reveal tactics make shadow arts, our only viable defensive line, largely ineffective. The Daredevil helps to alleviate this, since it gives a bunch of dodge-based utilities that thieves had in the previous acrobatics line. While an overall boon, this has left thieves salty over the fact that our elite specialization traits are mostly just giving us back what was taken from us on June 23rd.

Overall, the best way to fix stealth dependent thieves is to make them less stealth dependent. Acrobatics needs to be twice as good as it is currently, and with global initiative regen removed a lot of skills need their initiative costs tweaked, and/or additional initiative regen given.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Skeletor.9360:

The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.

You have flooded the game with all kinds of stealth removal in such a blatant and bad way that you might as well get rid of stealth all together. Stealth needs to be reliable. It simply lasts too long and you have given these classes NO other survival method. So you end up with a bunch of cry babies about stealth which you crumble to and bring out the nerf bat.

The approach to balance stealth is way out of balance. Would you put in a remove all armor for 6 seconds skill that only stealth classes could use? Of course not…but yet you have done exactly that.

When Beta becomes non-beta will probably be the start of the end of the game as it was for Shadowbane. Soon as they introduced vampires….bloop bloop bloop…game over.

Here is a challenge to the game developers…ask people if they could choose a non-expansion server would they play on it. I know I would select that server over the bug fest that is approaching.

Do this poll as a sticky and you will be shocked at how many people dread the expansion.

So… you’re saying that stealth is too powerful, but then babies cry… but it shouldn’t be nerfed because thieves aren’t powerful enough? Who are “these classes” when you’ve only mentioned one?

---

To anyone else who is confused, I’ll explain what is going on. The thief forum is currently the one of the whiniest forums right now. What is going on is everyone is having a gigantic circle pity, where they each compound and reaffirm how bad each other feels until it goes to “END IS NIGH!” levels. Because of this you get a lot of aimless and nonsensical complaints on other forums, many times being factually incorrect or utterly myopic.

So, what is the real problem with the thief currently? Well, this comes from two sources. June 23rds hit thieves hard, due to Anet’s desire to end the dodge spam meta. Several key things were nerfed regarding thieves as a hope to balance out a class that could out-duel any other given perfect play.

#1: Initiative regen was nerfed slightly in many places. These several “slight nerfs” accumulate and make it so all but very specific specs had their functionality cut.
#2: The Acrobatics line was gutted so badly that it is unquestionably the worst line in the game. Again, fear of the perma-dodge meta.
#3: With the removal of damage stats of traits, the normally high offensive thieves are now more in-line with other classes as far as offensive stats go.

This has left thief without many options, given that thieves now have only a single viable defensive line: Shadow Arts. This has lead to thieves being more stealth dependent than ever before. With elite specializations comes the Sneak Gyro, a rather sub par skill but nonetheless useful in exactly one way: Detection Pulse renders all stealth tactics useless for a time. While this skill is useless against most classes, mesmers and thieves are hit quite hard by it. Mesmers, have alternative forms of defense and are capable of engaging at range.

Thieves don’t and can’t. Well, to a degree, anyway. They’ve still got blinds, immobilize, and weakness. But the important thing is, reveal tactics make shadow arts, our only viable defensive line, largely ineffective. The Daredevil helps to alleviate this, since it gives a bunch of dodge-based utilities that thieves had in the previous acrobatics line. While an overall boon, this has left thieves salty over the fact that our elite specialization traits are mostly just giving us back what was taken from us on June 23rd.

Overall, the best way to fix stealth dependent thieves is to make them less stealth dependent. Acrobatics needs to be twice as good as it is currently, and with global initiative regen removed a lot of skills need their initiative costs tweaked, and/or additional initiative regen given.

Aha thanks for the unbiased explanation Blood Red. Hopefully Anet can see through all the QQ threads and see the real problems that you mention here and look at dealing with them.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Definitely have to go with, try a different build that doesn’t rely exclusively on stealth.

Doesn’t exist

Man just quit Thief and let it rest in peace as many of us did (even the best ones).This class has been dying for long time already and now its in coma….Its over,let us just deal with it

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

snip

It’s a bit unfair that you call the thief forum “the whiniest” as most of what is written there (since before June) is exactly what you told us right now in your second passage.
It was just when it became clear shortly before the last patch that we have no hope that anet will reverse some stuff they messed up and that there wasn’t a word on how thieves should manage the reveal skills, that people became a bit salty.

The revealed skills should’ve been adressed from the developers and not just brought into the game.
And the problem with thieves goes a bit farther than just revealed skills, in my opinion.

Well, what other forum held an in-game funeral for their entire class?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Well, what other forum held an in-game funeral for their entire class?

It was justified, I guess, as the reveal skills have never been adressed – and that is “class breaking”.
It’s ok if you think that it was whiny but in the end you listed the very same reasons as “making thief difficult to play” the people had to held a funeral.
We could’ve stripped though and make a thread with nekkid pics to gain some attention for the issue(s).

But to be fair; I promised my buddy one of these pics if thief had gotten a significant buff with the latest patch (I knew I was safe) (pistol doesn’t count as I don’t play pistol). = I can’t do the same for celebration and demonstration.. although I probably could. We should keep that in mind, but I somehow guess that most of the thieves already moved on.

So what proof is there of all this hopelessness?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

So what proof is there of all this hopelessness?

We tried hard to convince the devs that thief needs a buff. We explained how unfair the revealed skills are if they’re left like this – we did this since June in an intelligent manner and got a 20% pistol damage buff (and some other buff I can’t remember) – so all of what we said was left unheard.
S/D, P/D and D/P will become halfway viable again with the daredevil line – I don’t see D/D becoming viable. I don’t doubt staff will be viable. And I don’t doubt that most if not all elites will be “OP” at the start – I’m okay with that. I’m not okay with how all of this went down. The change from 2,3 to 3 lines was expected to be bumpy. What I and probably a lot of others didn’t expect was that all of it was left as it was and after 3 months there came some minor tweaks. I don’t really know about how other classes feel but the powercreep and conditions can’t be a problem for only thieves. By handeling this issue like they did I at least feel like “deal with how the game is or move on, they won’t change anything”.

Edit and Edit² added stuff: And I’m not so sure if DD and T or acro really is enough to deal with condis – so SA might still be the best, although not as good as it used to be, way to get rid of condis. With revealed skills… Sure you can survive that once but at least Lock On is pretty “spammable”. There were already tons of options in game to defeat a thief, every class had them, but instead we needed reveal skills and people freak out if they see a thief (they’re rather rare nowadays) but seem to have no problem with mesmers who can stealth easier, who are harder to hit and who can hit harder than thief. This game feels more and more brainless all around.

Edit³: And don’t get me wrong, I would rather not be heard – I’d rather have the developers making choices without listening to players. But stuff like CiS in grandmaster, like the revealed skills (without compensation and discussion), like the nerf of SE, like taking feline grace and moving it to a paid elite…

@All the people saying, “Use a Build, Pick a Class that doesn’t rely on Stealth”…

See that’s the Thiefs thing though, Stealth mechanics, used to grant us Boons, used to engage/disengage players/mobs ect., used to give us a powerful new Stealth-Only attack (Backstab, ect.) to Thiefs stealth is everything.

I get the feeling people think we should all play S/D Thiefs, why should we be pressured into one setup/build, when the use of Stealth opens up SO many more possibilities with a class that’s one of it’s biggest things is “Remaining unseen”…

Thiefs need an “Out of stealth/revealed” buff of sorts that allows them some sort of defense against what Stealth gives us (Regen/Condi removal, ect.)

And yeah, I know people will be like, “Learn to play noob, and dodge/evade stuff, just move….” then why play a Thief, a class that many Rogue-type players gravitated towards when they started playing GW2, maybe giving reveal to EVERYONE or giving stealth to EVERYONE isn’t the best idea.

I foresee the age of Warrior (Zerker) Ranger (Druid) and Ele being the new thing in HoT, in a game that said, “There will be NO Holy Trinity” it sure seems like that will be not be the case…

I’m by no means experienced with the thief class, but I just want to express my opinion here.
I think thieves have gotten so used to running full glass, relying on nothing but stealth keep them alive, that now they can’t get a hold of anything new.
DD basically have the ability to chain evades all day long while still putting out good damage. Brazil even showed in his video once a 100% evade uptime on against a golem. I think you thieves just need to give this whole thing a shot, and start thinking about none stealth reliant builds

SrebX.6498:

I’m by no means experienced with the thief class, but I just want to express my opinion here.
I think thieves have gotten so used to running full glass, relying on nothing but stealth keep them alive, that now they can’t get a hold of anything new.
DD basically have the ability to chain evades all day long while still putting out good damage. Brazil even showed in his video once a 100% evade uptime on against a golem. I think you thieves just need to give this whole thing a shot, and start thinking about none stealth reliant builds

We can’t run anything than full glas – that went with the ferocity patch.

But if brazil says so – wait that was that guy who always ran with his two bodyguards, right? Yeah, he sure knows how to fight ;)

Jana.6831:

SrebX.6498:

I’m by no means experienced with the thief class, but I just want to express my opinion here.
I think thieves have gotten so used to running full glass, relying on nothing but stealth keep them alive, that now they can’t get a hold of anything new.
DD basically have the ability to chain evades all day long while still putting out good damage. Brazil even showed in his video once a 100% evade uptime on against a golem. I think you thieves just need to give this whole thing a shot, and start thinking about none stealth reliant builds

We can’t run anything than full glas – that went with the ferocity patch.

But if brazil says so – wait that was that guy who always ran with his two bodyguards, right? Yeah, he sure knows how to fight

As I stated in the beginning, I’m by no means experienced with this class or know anything about it, but if you make a counter argument to what I said, please back it up instead of this useless sarcasm

SrebX.6498:

I’m by no means experienced with the thief class, but I just want to express my opinion here.
I think thieves have gotten so used to running full glass, relying on nothing but stealth keep them alive, that now they can’t get a hold of anything new.
DD basically have the ability to chain evades all day long while still putting out good damage. Brazil even showed in his video once a 100% evade uptime on against a golem. I think you thieves just need to give this whole thing a shot, and start thinking about none stealth reliant builds

Yeah man, I’m sure none of us have ever tried a non-stealth build. You sound like one of the QQ’ers that got us into this state in the first place. All whining, all while not knowing how to even play the class. Do you know what happened when thieves actually had a non-stealth build that was viable? It was called OP dodge spam, gutted, then resold to us for $50. And another thing, try playing a no glass thief. Go to PVP and try any other amulet aside from Marauder and Zerk, go and create that Soldier thief meta. Even those two amulets are kitten for thieves, one makes us die to the wind and the other makes us hit like the wind.

SrebX.6498:

I’m by no means experienced with the thief class, but I just want to express my opinion here.
I think thieves have gotten so used to running full glass, relying on nothing but stealth keep them alive, that now they can’t get a hold of anything new.
DD basically have the ability to chain evades all day long while still putting out good damage. Brazil even showed in his video once a 100% evade uptime on against a golem. I think you thieves just need to give this whole thing a shot, and start thinking about none stealth reliant builds

So what your saying is that we Thieves should just abandon any notion of using Stealth in our builds and be forced into using D/D or S/D and evade for days as our go to build?

Stealth has always played a large part in being a Thief, telling people to disregard a major mechanic to their class, is like telling the other classes not to use their major mechanics.

Stealth is a vital part of a Thiefs livelihood, and now with all these reveals and other classes being given what has been for the most part something mostly ours, it feels like ANet has just as it has in the past, caved to the complainers and the whiners who didn’t want to learn about how to counter-play a stealthed opponent.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Skeletor.9360:

The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.

You have flooded the game with all kinds of stealth removal in such a blatant and bad way that you might as well get rid of stealth all together. Stealth needs to be reliable. It simply lasts too long and you have given these classes NO other survival method. So you end up with a bunch of cry babies about stealth which you crumble to and bring out the nerf bat.

The approach to balance stealth is way out of balance. Would you put in a remove all armor for 6 seconds skill that only stealth classes could use? Of course not…but yet you have done exactly that.

When Beta becomes non-beta will probably be the start of the end of the game as it was for Shadowbane. Soon as they introduced vampires….bloop bloop bloop…game over.

Here is a challenge to the game developers…ask people if they could choose a non-expansion server would they play on it. I know I would select that server over the bug fest that is approaching.

Do this poll as a sticky and you will be shocked at how many people dread the expansion.

So… you’re saying that stealth is too powerful, but then babies cry… but it shouldn’t be nerfed because thieves aren’t powerful enough? Who are “these classes” when you’ve only mentioned one?

---

To anyone else who is confused, I’ll explain what is going on. The thief forum is currently the one of the whiniest forums right now. What is going on is everyone is having a gigantic circle pity, where they each compound and reaffirm how bad each other feels until it goes to “END IS NIGH!” levels. Because of this you get a lot of aimless and nonsensical complaints on other forums, many times being factually incorrect or utterly myopic.

So, what is the real problem with the thief currently? Well, this comes from two sources. June 23rds hit thieves hard, due to Anet’s desire to end the dodge spam meta. Several key things were nerfed regarding thieves as a hope to balance out a class that could out-duel any other given perfect play.

#1: Initiative regen was nerfed slightly in many places. These several “slight nerfs” accumulate and make it so all but very specific specs had their functionality cut.
#2: The Acrobatics line was gutted so badly that it is unquestionably the worst line in the game. Again, fear of the perma-dodge meta.
#3: With the removal of damage stats of traits, the normally high offensive thieves are now more in-line with other classes as far as offensive stats go.

This has left thief without many options, given that thieves now have only a single viable defensive line: Shadow Arts. This has lead to thieves being more stealth dependent than ever before. With elite specializations comes the Sneak Gyro, a rather sub par skill but nonetheless useful in exactly one way: Detection Pulse renders all stealth tactics useless for a time. While this skill is useless against most classes, mesmers and thieves are hit quite hard by it. Mesmers, have alternative forms of defense and are capable of engaging at range.

Thieves don’t and can’t. Well, to a degree, anyway. They’ve still got blinds, immobilize, and weakness. But the important thing is, reveal tactics make shadow arts, our only viable defensive line, largely ineffective. The Daredevil helps to alleviate this, since it gives a bunch of dodge-based utilities that thieves had in the previous acrobatics line. While an overall boon, this has left thieves salty over the fact that our elite specialization traits are mostly just giving us back what was taken from us on June 23rd.

Overall, the best way to fix stealth dependent thieves is to make them less stealth dependent. Acrobatics needs to be twice as good as it is currently, and with global initiative regen removed a lot of skills need their initiative costs tweaked, and/or additional initiative regen given.

actually i think daredevil is a garbage… i have play with it and i have play with my normal thief vs daredevil, yeah the dash bring something new to the table.. but it dosen’t fix the core problem of the thief, you steal are really weak to condi’s, you still need to go to a high risk to do a lot of damage (when other classes seem to do really high damage with no risk at all)… 50+ of endurace… i think is a joke… to play daredvil and do damage. you need to forget about shadows arts.. that means that you only defense now is the dodge.

personally.. when i go with my normal thief vs a daredvil. i kill them in 3 sec… and they do not damage to me at all.. go inv is still better than the dodge.

@BeepBoopBop: just fyi, I’ve never complained about thieves or stealth. I even think that during that last few months thieves have been particularly easier to take down. I’m only trying to express my opinion about the adjusting to a new given situation, instead of QQing all day.

@Odokuro: You just took what I said to the extreme,I never said anything about completely abandoning one mechanic. You know, making an evade build won’t lock all access to stealth. Stealth is still good, there’s just a lot more counter to it

SrebX.6498:

As I stated in the beginning, I’m by no means experienced with this class or know anything about it, but if you make a counter argument to what I said, please back it up instead of this useless sarcasm

I fought Brazil once (duel) and when he was at 5% health (as an engi about a year ago) his bodyguards stepped in – and that is how I see any advise of him – so it’s not so good to come to a forum, admit that you have no idea what you’re talking about and base your opinion on someone who doesn’t know to play. I still laugh about that fight every time I see his name, sorry.

Jana.6831:

SrebX.6498:

As I stated in the beginning, I’m by no means experienced with this class or know anything about it, but if you make a counter argument to what I said, please back it up instead of this useless sarcasm

I fought Brazil once (duel) and when he was at 5% health (as an engi about a year ago) his bodyguards stepped in – and that is how I see any advise of him – so it’s not so good to come to a forum, admit that you have no idea what you’re talking about and base your opinion on someone who doesn’t know to play. I still laugh about that fight every time I see his name, sorry.

No, I have no idea about the class, but that’s just how I see this QQ… You’re welcome to disproof my claims, and honestly you probably can since, again, I know nothing. I just want to know how is it disproved

Skeletor.9360:

The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.

Super Unicorn says “neigh”.

There have always been durable builds for Thieves, but nobody wants to actually give up some of that sweet, sweet offensive mojo to actually put stat points into defensive stats and build for a longer encounter. The addition of settlers armor was a huge boon to Super Unicorn and while the build has been forgotten by the meta crowd it’s also been regularly passed over when the Ghost of Nerfs Present has come to call and occasionally even gets buffed. Daredevil plays straight into Super Unicorn’s strengths with its low reliance on stealth and self-healing thought a high volume of small hits. Lotus training is glorious when you’re leaving clouds of caltrops in your wake and running Signet of Malice with no worries at all about being revealed. I walked into the jungle and burst out laughing at how completely safe I was even in the midst of what some where howling were over the top poop-storms.

Maybe the next Thief Espec will be hugely stealth focused with off-hand mace as the new god-king of CC, but until then there are ways to leverage what we’re getting if you play the game that IS and not try to pound a round peg through a star-shaped hole.

Skeletor.9360:

The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.

I respectfuly disagree. DD helped me survive better that stealth.

kaikalii.4198:

Skeletor.9360:

The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.

I respectfuly disagree. DD helped me survive better that stealth.

DD is not Thief. Those who don’t own HoT cannot access DD at all.

SrebX.6498:

No, I have no idea about the class, but that’s just how I see this QQ… You’re welcome to disproof my claims, and honestly you probably can since, again, I know nothing. I just want to know how is it disproved

Others tried, the whole forum is full of it – you can always create a thief and learn the class. So why did you think you needed to say anything if all you had was some youtube video by someone else? Not a good idea, right?
And no, sorry, I’m tired of explaining to people how thief works.
That goes also to Nike.

Edit: Or even better, watch one of brazil’s other thief videos to learn the class chuckle

dont worry next weapon set ele necro warrior will get stealth too so no one will ever cry about stealth been OP lol.

My own take on why all this “reveal” being added.

Both the engineer and the ranger were given early access to the ability. in spite of ALL the complaints those classes made about stealth they did not put them on their utility bar because as most put it “There better skills to use”. In other words the power of stealth was overstated.

That said the complaints continued non stop to the point where the devs felt more reveal type utilities needed on more classes. Even as these other classes gain more of the same some people playing classes that do not get reveal insist they need the same because even as they add reveals , they add more stealth sources to other classes.

ONLY the thief has an entire trait line that is focused on stealth attacks and only the thief is hurt by these reveals.

Nike.2631:

There have always been durable builds for Thieves, but nobody wants to actually give up some of that sweet, sweet offensive mojo to actually put stat points into defensive stats and build for a longer encounter.

What is the solution for non-Daredevil Thieves in PvP? I’ve gone with full “bunker” builds, and still can’t hold a point… but I can’t kill a fly while I’m at it. I’m talking non-stealth, rope-a-dope sword builds.

Sadly, I don’t believe the Thief is designed to be effective defensively, especially in PvP. You can get away with it in WvW with Dire and Stealth, but the best defense a Thief has in PvP is offense. And even that advantage got shredded with a history of patches.

If I can’t even kill something as a full Glass Cannon, how can I expect to kill something when I give up damage, but don’t gain enough sustainability in return? Other professions have too much damage mitigation and passive defenses ON TOP of heavy damage output. While the Thief has very little passive defense, and even its active defenses got gutted, all while having its damage output compromised. Not to mention having most of its sustainability (health regen, condi cleansing, avoiding/mitigating damage) AND much of its offensive capability (Backstab, Tactical Strike) completely at risk of being negated through Reveal skills.

I’m completely fine with pure active defenses like in Ninja Gaiden. But the current Thief simply does not have enough capability to survive with it alone. The current passive defense doesn’t seem to offer enough fighting effectiveness or sustainability… especially without Stealth.

I can’t speak for Daredevil, but the base Thief is not in a good place for single combat… offensively or defensively, at least in PvP.

There’s so much of it now that they really should just delete stealth and redesign Thief as GW1 Assassin at this point if they are regretting it this much. Shoulda been that way from the beginning tbh.

I want to add that…use the other beta skills is not an option as then this means thief is a beta only class.

if thief actually got a good elite it’d be the one class everyone complains about lol. the curse of playing the assassin class in a pvp game.

Stealth can be balanced, it’s been gone about the wrong way.

Reveal makes it to where you cannot re-enter stealth and EVERYONE can target you.

What they should of done (if of course they have the tech for it) is create something like “Clairvoyance” where one person can activate an ability to see someone in stealth and target them for X amount of time. The person still remains invisible to other players who do not have the ability active. Remove reveal all together.

Not a complete reveal to where not only an entire defensive trait line is rendered useless and everyone and their mother can target that individual.

babazhook.6805:

My own take on why all this “reveal” being added.

Both the engineer and the ranger were given early access to the ability. in spite of ALL the complaints those classes made about stealth they did not put them on their utility bar because as most put it “There better skills to use”. In other words the power of stealth was overstated.

Pardon? You think there aren’t 1.3 million Rangers out there with Longbows and therefor stealth? You’re saying PU Mesmer wasn’t a juggernaut?

Professions that have access to stealth consistently load it. I can hardly wait to smirk and repeat the Thief mantra “Stealth isn’t OP, L2P noob” while on my Runes of the Trapper Dragonhunter.

Nike.2631:

Pardon? You think there aren’t 1.3 million Rangers out there with Longbows and therefor stealth? You’re saying PU Mesmer wasn’t a juggernaut?

Professions that have access to stealth consistently load it. I can hardly wait to smirk and repeat the Thief mantra “Stealth isn’t OP, L2P noob” while on my Runes of the Trapper Dragonhunter.

I don’t think it’s necessarily Stealth that is “OP.” It think it’s just the icing on the cake. It’s kind of like the boogie man. It’s not the darkness that makes him dangerous… it’s what he can do when he reveals himself.

Hmm, think about it like this…

A visible Chuck Norris.
An invisible Chuck Norris.

Is the invisible Chuck Norris lethal? Yes, but the invisibility isn’t what makes him so. He can kill you just as easily if you can see him the whole time.

Now, think of this…

A Black Widow spider on a white wall.
A Black Widow spider on a black wall.

Which is lethal? Well, technically, they CAN both kill you. But which actually has the better odds? The one that blends in enough so you don’t see it. Because the one that you do see, you are going to either avoid it or smash it with a shoe. And even if you do get caught unaware and get bit, you’re still probably going to smash it and make it to the hospital before you get in too bad of a condition.

So yeah, Stealth is about the only thing Thieves have to fall back on. Stay invisible or die. Others don’t need Stealth to survive or do damage like Thieves need it.

Stealth is dead,Thief is dead.Bow to the new masters of stealth – mesmers (cause they are only class now that can benefit from it).
RIP Thief

Hah! Wouldn’t it be funny, with all the game changing updates to the other professions, if all Thief got for their elite mechanic was an extra dodge, like they used to have in acrobatics line?! Hahaha!

Owait…

No Reaper/Celestial Form, no F5 [Change your profession mechanic] button, no “Shadow” form, different-mechanic for steal, another steal, AoE Reveal because Thief is the “Master of Shadows” and they know what to look for……

Late April fools?

Skeletor.9360:

You have flooded the game with all kinds of stealth removal in such a blatant and bad way that you might as well get rid of stealth all together.

By ‘flooded’ you mean add one extra reveal to the engineer? which requires using sneak gyro? Bringing the total amount of reveal skills up to 4. Three of which are on the engineer making it only two classes that can actively reveal you.

You need to stop using stealth as a crutch.

Bacon.1835:

By ‘flooded’ you mean add one extra reveal to the engineer? which requires using sneak gyro? Bringing the total amount of reveal skills up to 4. Three of which are on the engineer making it only two classes that can actively reveal you.

You need to stop using stealth as a crutch.

Umm, I think you may want to go back over the incoming specs. Also, don’t forget about the Stealth Disruptor Trap in WvW.

It’s not so much that stealth is a crutch for the Thief. It’s more like Stealth is the gateway to sustainability and the highest damaging and useful attacks.

Sadly, that is the fault of the devs, not the players.

Skeletor.9360:

The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.

Was stealth removed!? Hmm nope.

Skeletor.9360:

You have flooded the game with all kinds of stealth removal in such a blatant and bad way that you might as well get rid of stealth all together.

Just why?!
Because u will not be able to do bullkitten like this anymore!? (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Ghost-Thief-assassinates-warrior-must-watch/first#post5578772)

Those stealth removals cover the entire map or have fixed radius!?

Skeletor.9360:

Stealth needs to be reliable.

Stealth is still reliable.You just have to use in a clever way,am i wrong?!

Let me get straight to the point ok?!!I ’ve never seen in any MMORPG in the history of gaming a broken stealth mechanics like the one here on GW2 alright?!

Use heal…get stealth,shadow refuge…get stealth,fall damage…get stealth,swing your dagger….get stealth,use blinding pownder…get stealth,jump in smoke field…get stealth x3,fart…get stealth.Wanna talk about trapper thieves uh?!

Thieves got plenty of ways to enter/re-enter stealth with NO stealth COOLDOWN atall(and trust me stealth cooldown is a reality in the majority of games out there)…and if some classes got stealth removal its not a big deal…simply NOW thieves have to choose wisely when to use stealth to reset,get away…i dont see where is the problem.

Worry less. Adapt more.

ilMasa.2546:

Stealth is still reliable.You just have to use in a clever way,am i wrong?!

Let me get straight to the point ok?!!I ’ve never seen in any MMORPG in the history of gaming a broken stealth mechanics like the one here on GW2 alright?!

Use heal…get stealth,shadow refuge…get stealth,fall damage…get stealth,swing your dagger….get stealth,use blinding pownder…get stealth,jump in smoke field…get stealth x3,fart…get stealth.Wanna talk about trapper thieves uh?!

Thieves got plenty of ways to enter/re-enter stealth with NO stealth COOLDOWN atall(and trust me stealth cooldown is a reality in the majority of games out there)…and if some classes got stealth removal its not a big deal…simply NOW thieves have to choose wisely when to use stealth to reset,get away…i dont see where is the problem.

Only halfway reliable condi remove when stealthed, burst for D and P mainhand thieves only when stealthed, damage migation only when stealthed, reveal after every hit which lasts self applied 3 (in pve and wvw) 4 seconds in pvp and longer if applied by other players. Our class has been built around stealth, removing stealth with revealed skills destroys our mechanics. There are countless threads on the first pages of this forum which explain this – or you can always roll a thief and learn the class ;)

Jana.6831:

Only halfway reliable condi remove when stealthed, burst for D and P mainhand thieves only when stealthed, damage migation only when stealthed, reveal after every hit which lasts self applied 3 (in pve and wvw) 4 seconds in pvp and longer if applied by other players. Our class has been built around stealth, removing stealth with revealed skills destroys our mechanics.

U can be pushed out from shadow refuge with a knockback…how come the knockback its not a gamebreaking thing for thieves then?!It actually negate the shadow refuge function.Everytime u use it you are aware that someone could push you out from it,its a calculated risk ok?!The same goes for stealth,you have to calculate risks,its an assassin class it works with risks.

Stealth reveals do not destroy your mechanics,they destroy your old habits.I want to repeat myself: from now on thieves have to use their skills wisely and they must be aware that stealthing its not 100% rewarding as it was,cos someone could run a stealth reveal and he could use it…if thats the case,adapt your strategy…whats the problem?! :P

Jana.6831:

or you can always roll a thief and learn the class

really the “roll the thief and learn the class!,duh?”thingy…maybe i have a thief but still….is there anything to actually learn….

ilMasa.2546:

really the “roll the thief and learn the class!,duh?”thingy…maybe i have a thief but still….is there anything to actually learn….

You can’t tell if you haven’t tried.

Anyway like you said there were already enough counter for thief stealth around. I can dodge a knockback in most cases – I can’t dodge an engis flamethrower and there’s no indictator that my opponent activated any reveal skills.
Edit: And even if I miss my dodge and am pushed out of my SR, I’ll have my wasted SR and 3 secs of reveal instead of 8+

And sorry but, can you grow some years up before you post on forums?

ilMasa.2546:

U can be pushed out from shadow refuge with a knockback…how come the knockback its not a gamebreaking thing for thieves then?

Honestly???
You really just compared a single skill to an entire traitline and mechanic?

You do realize that Revealing a Thief is like locking an Elementalist out of Fire and Water attunements for an extended period of time, don’t you?

It’s not a simple matter of “play and counter play. If you take away one thing, I’ll do another.”

What you’re really telling Thieves to do is play Sword/Pistol or Pistol/Pistol. Because Thieves will never be safe from being Revealed. Especially in a team fight where things can completely blindside you. It’s not enough that a Thief can die in 3 hits, you also have to take away it’s only viable means of surviving… which was programmed by the devs, not the players.

Go roaming in WvW with a non-Stealth Thief and see how long you last. If that’s not enough, play a “smart” stealth Thief, and wait until you get a 30-second Revealed debuff because somebody (literally could have been anybody) set a Stealth Disruptor Trap.

I’m already running full glass, non-Shadow Arts builds. The only way I get into Stealth is Cloak and Dagger or Black Powder + Heartseeker. The only good stealth does me is to give me a Backstab, and I may avoid a few strikes as I approach. But I’m having to give up boon-stealing in order to gain the condition cleansing I lose. And the only way I heal is through my Heal skill or by getting out of combat. Sustainability really has been thrown out the window.

What I find interesting about all this despair is that I’ve heard it all before. It was on the necro forum. It was on the memser forum. It was on the ranger forum (still is, kind of). It was on the ele forum. It was on the warrior forum. It is currently on the guardian forum. It was on the engi forum, too, and they’re the most chill forum. Throughout this game’s life, there has been several points on every single forum where the class collectively jumps onto the all is vain train and convulses violently on the floor, hoping that it will get the devs to love them a little bit more.

It is the exact same arguments, too. “Oh, I came up with a bunch of things that I wanted and the devs didn’t do what I want so the devs don’t love me!!!”. Follow through with the same “X does better than my class”, “I’m quitting my class”, “If it weren’t for X we wouldn’t even be viable”, so on and so forth. No introspection, no concern for other classes, no self doubt. Times like this I resent the fact that the internet is mostly mid-pubescent teenagers.

And every time it is wrong. The class gets buffed while others get nerfed, and then there is a wave of “this class is OP bring it down!” for the next several weeks. It has happened to every class, sometimes multiple times. The doom and gloom was wrong the last dozen times it happened, it is wrong now, and it will be wrong the next dozen times it happens. It feels like I’m the only guy with a memory here.

So, what makes the thief so special, where other classes (Rangers and Guards, in particular) are worse off and have more legitimate complaints in all forms of the game? When other classes were in objectively worse positions throughout GW2 history? So far, only that thieves whine the hardest.

Lets start fron this one,do u mind?!

Jana.6831:

And sorry but, can you grow some years up before you post on forums?

What, exactly , of what I said is immature ?Or makes me look like someone who has to grow!?Do you think your sentence reflects exactly what u asked me to do?!

Jana.6831:

You can’t tell if you haven’t tried.

• I could post u a screenshots of my account….
• I could post u a video of me playing a lvl80 full geared thief roaming in WvW…
• I could post u a video of me playing a lvl80 full geared thief in a pvp map…
• I could try to prove you that i actually know most of the thief mechanics on several types of build…

I could do anything you want but at the end,judging the “grown up” answers you gave me (“roll a thief and learn the class” and “grow up some year before posting”)…would it change anything ??!Dont think so. nvm then

Jana.6831:

Anyway like you said there were already enough counter for thief stealth around. I can dodge a knockback in most cases – I can’t dodge an engis flamethrower and there’s no indictator that my opponent activated any reveal skills.
Edit: And even if I miss my dodge and am pushed out of my SR, I’ll have my wasted SR and 3 secs of reveal instead of 8+

If u put yourself in a situation where u “cant dodge an engis flamethrower” then you made a poor choice in that particular situation,bad positioning maybe?

Engis got the “Lock On” trait…engaging them in the same way u would do with other classes,will work?!If not then analyze the target:

• is he running with “lock on” ?! let me test that.
• is he running nade or flamethrower?! let me check that
• is he using a Sneak gyro!?If yes he could use Detection pulse.

Do all these things change they way u were used to engage a target?! Yes
Do u have to come up with something more than metabuild.org?! Yes
Do u have to put some thoughts before engaging?! Yes
Do u have to put even more thoughts while fighting?!Yes
Do u have to actively change your plans on the go?! Yes like all the other classes have to do by swapping weapons/kits/elements the entire fight.
Will thieves still be able to stack stealth and dancing around unaware targets doing /sleep /laugh 24/7 ?!Not anymore vs certain type of build.

Stealth is a huge thing in GW2 thats why u see so many Mesmer and Thieves roaming in WvW maps.Its a fact.

Like i said in most mmorpg out there Stealth has huge restrictions:

• You can stealth only if out of combat
• In combat u can re-enter stealth with 1 ability (and it has cooldown)
• On Archage everyone can use Stealth but the mechanic is totally different: the effectiveness change from behind,front and sides…

Gw2 thieves have no restrictions atall and the fact that u can actually almost perma stealth proves that.

So complaying about not being able to see any stealth reveal indictator is kinda dumb.

What do u want a raid alert like in WoW “run away little girl,run away!!!”

Kageseigi.2150:

Honestly???
You really just compared a single skill to an entire traitline and mechanic?

I didnt write just that…if u followed what i said i didnt ask thieves to

Kageseigi.2150:

play Sword/Pistol or Pistol/Pistol. Because Thieves will never be safe from being Revealed. Especially in a team fight where things can completely blindside you. It’s not enough that a Thief can die in 3 hits, you also have to take away it’s only viable means of surviving… which was programmed by the devs, not the players.

but to

use their skills wisely and they must be aware that stealthing its not 100% rewarding as it was,cos someone could run a stealth reveal and he could use it…if thats the case,adapt your strategy…