Guild Wars 2

You don’t sound like someone who knows much about thief, so you can post me all screenshots you like (not that I care).

An engi with Lock on and a flame thrower will target my SR – best method to get rid of condis for me – best method for him to “detect” me. I can’t get out of the ring – but thanks for telling me that my positioning is bad – and see that is what I meant and I’m honestly tired of discussing all this and of trying to explain to people how thief works – I’m doing this for 2 years now – I saved countless of enemy thieves from getting “perma banned” because I explained that they weren’t cheating – and some people started to understand thieves actually.

So excuse me, but I think I just leave you “L2P” people to yourselves – yeah you’re right, I’m a scrub and bad and need to learn to play and stuff.

Edit: Grammar

Jana.6831:

You don’t sound like someone who knows much about thief, so you can post me all screenshots you like (not that I care).

An engi with Lock on and a flame thrower will target my SR – best method to get rid of condis for me – best method for him to “detect” me. I can’t get out of the ring – but thanks for telling me that my positioning is bad – and see that is what I meant and I’m honestly tired of discussing all this and of trying to explain to people how thief works – I’m doing this for 2 years now – I saved countless of enemy thieves from getting “perma banned” because I explained that they weren’t cheating – and some people started to understand thieves actually.

So excuse me, but I think I just leave you “L2P” people to yourselves – yeah you’re right, I’m a scrub and bad and need to learn to play and stuff.

Edit: Grammar

Wtf is wrong with you!?Seriusly,change attitude man…i wasnt the one telling others to “go level a thief u know nothing” or “grow up some years and come back posting”.

About the SR vs engi scenario…
“Lock on” its not an hidden trait,its not a secret its a possibility…
I didnt said “you scrub” or “go l2p your class”…
I said if you ended up using a SR vs an engi,knowing he got a flamethrower and “lock on” you probably misplayed that particular fight…(“bad positioning maybe”)…was that a terrible thing to say?!come on…

ilMasa.2546:

Wtf is wrong with you!?Seriusly,change attitude man…i wasnt the one telling others to “go level a thief u know nothing” or “grow up some years and come back posting”.

About the SR vs engi scenario…
“Lock on” its not an hidden trait,its not a secret its a possibility…
I didnt said “you scrub” or “go l2p your class”…
I said if you ended up using a SR vs an engi,knowing he got a flamethrower and “lock on” you probably misplayed that particular fight…(“bad positioning maybe”)…was that a terrible thing to say?!come on…

I don’t know what an engi has equipped if he jumps on me – but probably all other thieves can look into the future.

You did say that – reread your words – but it wasn’t meant this way, it’s just “I quit this discussion” as it leads to nowhere. You guys can’t remember what you wrote in your last post, you know nothing about this forum, all you want is to “whine about the whiners” although no one whined – so be it.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

What I find interesting about all this despair is that I’ve heard it all before. It was on the necro forum. It was on the memser forum. It was on the ranger forum (still is, kind of). It was on the ele forum. It was on the warrior forum. It is currently on the guardian forum. It was on the engi forum, too, and they’re the most chill forum. Throughout this game’s life, there has been several points on every single forum where the class collectively jumps onto the all is vain train and convulses violently on the floor, hoping that it will get the devs to love them a little bit more.

It is the exact same arguments, too. “Oh, I came up with a bunch of things that I wanted and the devs didn’t do what I want so the devs don’t love me!!!”. Follow through with the same “X does better than my class”, “I’m quitting my class”, “If it weren’t for X we wouldn’t even be viable”, so on and so forth. No introspection, no concern for other classes, no self doubt. Times like this I resent the fact that the internet is mostly mid-pubescent teenagers.

And every time it is wrong. The class gets buffed while others get nerfed, and then there is a wave of “this class is OP bring it down!” for the next several weeks. It has happened to every class, sometimes multiple times. The doom and gloom was wrong the last dozen times it happened, it is wrong now, and it will be wrong the next dozen times it happens. It feels like I’m the only guy with a memory here.

So, what makes the thief so special, where other classes (Rangers and Guards, in particular) are worse off and have more legitimate complaints in all forms of the game? When other classes were in objectively worse positions throughout GW2 history? So far, only that thieves whine the hardest.

With this in mind, I wonder if it’s just lack of creativity that Thieves are in the place they are. If you are saying how every class has gone through this and yet, those classes STILL got nerfed, this suggests to me that the devs know something about some sort of synergy with traits or sigils or armor that causes them to be broken as hell, and we haven’t found it yet. Much like how no one used S/D until someone found how broken the old Feline Grace was with it, I wonder if there is another stat combo or way of playing that we haven’t figured out yet.

I am saying this because I play fighting games, and in Marvel vs. Capcom 3, Jill was considered to be bottom half of the tier list. Yet when Ultimate Marvel 3 came out, she was nerfed to hell because there were things that she had that broke the game entirely. It was a big head scratcher because no one knew why they would have nerfed her in the first place.

Edit : putting the quote back in.

ilMasa.2546:

if u followed what i said i didnt ask thieves to

Kageseigi.2150:

play Sword/Pistol or Pistol/Pistol. Because Thieves will never be safe from being Revealed. Especially in a team fight where things can completely blindside you. It’s not enough that a Thief can die in 3 hits, you also have to take away it’s only viable means of surviving… which was programmed by the devs, not the players.

but to

use their skills wisely and they must be aware that stealthing its not 100% rewarding as it was,cos someone could run a stealth reveal and he could use it…if thats the case,adapt your strategy…

But how is a Thief supposed to do this? Simply abandon sustainability (Shadow Arts) completely? Run away from every profession that may possibly have a Reveal skill?

The issue isn’t Stealth not being 100% rewarding. The problem is that against a Reveal-capable opponent, Stealth CAN be negated 100% for however long. No condi-removal, no health regeneration, no damage mitigation, no hiding to avoid damage, no powerful/useful Stealth-required attacks. It’s not just an “oh drat, he can see me” matter.

Basically, a Thief is like a scuba-diver deep beneath the sea. Stealth with Shadow Arts is its oxygen tank. Being Revealed isn’t just a simple leak in the tank, it’s the complete removal of the tank.

Let’s take your example of Shadow Refuge. I can use it wisely where I can avoid getting knocked out of it. I can place it far enough away from the enemy, or I can place it against a wall. Or I can even dodge and evade inside of it. And even if there was a situation I knew it was unwise to even try to use it, I can use other means to enter Stealth. But against a Revealing opponent, there’s not much you can do and still be able to fight. And within a match, there’s no way to change traitlines or utilities in order to adapt. Basically, a Thief with Shadow Arts is a 3-legged stool. The Reveal skills completely knock out one of those legs.

Think of a buffed Diamond Skin trait vs. a full Condition Damage build. It’s not even fair.

Kageseigi.2150:

ilMasa.2546:

if u followed what i said i didnt ask thieves to

Kageseigi.2150:

play Sword/Pistol or Pistol/Pistol. Because Thieves will never be safe from being Revealed. Especially in a team fight where things can completely blindside you. It’s not enough that a Thief can die in 3 hits, you also have to take away it’s only viable means of surviving… which was programmed by the devs, not the players.

but to

use their skills wisely and they must be aware that stealthing its not 100% rewarding as it was,cos someone could run a stealth reveal and he could use it…if thats the case,adapt your strategy…

But how is a Thief supposed to do this? Simply abandon sustainability (Shadow Arts) completely? Run away from every profession that may possibly have a Reveal skill?

The issue isn’t Stealth not being 100% rewarding. The problem is that against a Reveal-capable opponent, Stealth CAN be negated 100% for however long. No condi-removal, no health regeneration, no damage mitigation, no hiding to avoid damage, no powerful/useful Stealth-required attacks. It’s not just an “oh drat, he can see me” matter.

Basically, a Thief is like a scuba-diver deep beneath the sea. Stealth with Shadow Arts is its oxygen tank. Being Revealed isn’t just a simple leak in the tank, it’s the complete removal of the tank.

Let’s take your example of Shadow Refuge. I can use it wisely where I can avoid getting knocked out of it. I can place it far enough away from the enemy, or I can place it against a wall. Or I can even dodge and evade inside of it. And even if there was a situation I knew it was unwise to even try to use it, I can use other means to enter Stealth. But against a Revealing opponent, there’s not much you can do and still be able to fight. And within a match, there’s no way to change traitlines or utilities in order to adapt. Basically, a Thief with Shadow Arts is a 3-legged stool. The Reveal skills completely knock out one of those legs.

Think of a buffed Diamond Skin trait vs. a full Condition Damage build. It’s not even fair.

Ok i get what u r saying.But you have to keep in mind that the reveal last for 6 seconds (more or less),and any reveal skillz (like the engi tool belt) has a 30 seconds cooldown.On the other hand as a thief u dont have a stealth CD…Thats why i was talking about using skills wisely…like baiting your opponend to burn those kind of skill,save your burst for the appropriate moment?!.They use the reveal shadow step away/bow away stealth back=> steal and engage again…is this an absurd scenario?!Or is actually possible for a thief to move away from reveal area of effect,reset and start again?!And i know thieves can do this.

For example ive seen alotta of thieves using SR just as a bait,just to drive away the enemy pressure while recovering or disengaging or to attack the one left behind…ive seen thieves dodging an engi flamethrower by timing their steal + smoke field…its just about thinking how to counter the most possible situations.dunno if u understand what im saying…

ilMasa.2546:

Thats why i was talking about using skills wisely…like baiting your opponend to burn those kind of skill,save your burst for the appropriate moment?!.They use the reveal shadow step away/bow away stealth back=> steal and engage again…is this an absurd scenario?!Or is actually possible for a thief to move away from reveal area of effect,reset and start again?!And i know thieves can do this.

It would be great to always have that capability. And I’m sure it’s possible to do so. But how practical is it?

The main issue is that Thieves are truly glass. One wrong move, and they’re dead. You almost have to be able to predict the future to be able to win some fights.

Sadly, it’s not as easy as it may seem to be able to disengage at a moment’s notice, especially on certain builds.

Neither is it always simple to reacquire Stealth once it is taken away. Even if Revealed only took away Stealth instead of preventing it for a time, a Dagger/Pistol Thief would require 3-6 seconds just to be able to use a second Black Powder + Heartseeker combo. Without it, he must rely on utilities which he may not have even slotted for, especially if Shadow Refuge becomes so dangerous.

The Thief may have just switch weapons which would lock him out of getting to his Shortbow for 10 seconds. And even then, if he had just used a Black Powder + Heartseeker combo, he still may not have enough initiative to get off an Infiltrator’s Arrow.

I know everything is situational, but even when not at risk of being Revealed, combat situations usually do not favor the Thief. It’s too glassy, the initiative cost is high to Stealth, non-stealth utilities are needed to survive, etc.

Some problems can be fixed. Providing more ways to enter Stealth, cleanse conditions, and break stuns. Giving the Thief a higher health pool or more Toughness as baseline. Increasing initiative regeneration. Giving more dodge abilities (like the old Feline Grace… and not requiring Daredevil). Allowing instant-weapon swap so they don’t get locked into or out of Shortbow. There are so many possibilities. But sadly, things keep getting stacked against the Thief… like Revealed.

As long as the Thief does not gain any more viable methods to survive or through-the-roof offensive capabilities, then it really doesn’t deserve to have more or more powerful threats thrown its way.

EDIT:

Basically, Thieves are not super-fighters to begin with. It takes a LOT of effort to punch through some builds’ defenses. It takes even more effort to be able to survive against their attacks. Initiative, utilities, and weapon sets all have to be managed extremely well to just do damage and survive. When you bring in the ability to completely negate the Thief’s sustainability, that adds a completely new dimension to the fight. It is almost like fighting on two fronts. You’re having to blow more initiative and more dodges just to get back on somewhat equal footing. And that’s like fighting someone with an arm tied behind your back.

theres something about stealth classes that i’ve noticed which i think is one of the biggest problems.

there is a pattern to all of them EXCEPT for thief.
mesmers can turn invisible. mesmers also have clones.
ranger can turn invisible and also have pets they can cycle through
engineers can turn invisible and they also have turrets
thieves can turn invisible….. (blank)

the biggest problem in my opinion is thieves have no misdirection, as in, there is nothing to pull the enemy’s attention away. theres no REAL slight of hand (and no im not talking about the trait)

stealth is a two step process. disappearance and the reveal. mesmers are truly the best at stealth misdirection.

mesmers: in a field of clones, they can disappear with other things to keep the enemy’s attention and also occupying their target system.

in the mesmer’s reveal step, they’re safe because if they play smart, they can use their clones to further disguise themselves. you also have to note the ease in which it they can summon clones. dodgeroll, utility, weapon skills….

the other classes are more similar in the fact that they too can use misdirection but not in the form of clones. the differences are this

rangers only have one form of misdirection at a time but they can cycle through them. pets taunt, they reveal, they knock down, they fear, and they immobilize. a common mistake is ignoring the pets. but for a trapper ranger it is more or less, win win.

if you focus on the pet, the pet can lock you in place while the trapper ranger stacks traps on you. if you focus on the ranger, they can turn invisible and force you to engage the pet and the cycle repeats. even if you kill the pet, another one will be pulled out, furthering the cycle. and don’t take the pets lightly, they can be pretty tanky.

engineers are weaker of the two because they hardly have any stealth but their stealth is still much stronger than thief in the fact that they can flee to a bunker of turrets. the turrets are strong and hard to approach for melee. they can immobilize you, burn you, and heal them.

before i get into thieves, it is important to note how stealth works. we all know that there is a 3 second reveal stage. again for those classes above, misdirection mitigates the reveal time because they’re solid defenses.

thieves and mesmers have something in common. they may stay in stealth for a VERY long time. rangers can too but they have to waste their traps.

the reason i compare mesmers and thieves in this case is because mesmers can still summon clones and phantasms to deal damage and STAY invisible. they can even shatter them and stay invisible if i remember correctly.

but when a thief needs to attack, it is forced to reveal itself with no misdirection afterwards. no clones, no turrets, no pets.

(the skill where you summon other thieves dont count because they follow you, thus revealing your position)

another thing to note, a lot of the most damaging skills from thief COMES from stealth. i was hoping the pistol buff would make it so we wouldnt have to rely on stealth so much, but we have no damage mitigation lol…. toughness and armor are BS really…

as a player who’s been a thief since the beginning of gw2, this is what bothers me the most. i dont know if anyone else has acknowledged these facts, but to me, it’s a real issue which pretty much forced me to switch to mesmer.

Achey.3612:

/snip

You are on point with what I think about the current stealth/Thief situation.

I know that the counter argument to that is that Thieves have more readily available source of stealth where as Mesmers, even if they have torch, decoy and mass invis(I won’t put in veil because I don’t think many mesmers would bother taking that), don’t have the stealth spam-ability like Thieves do.

However… a counter argument to that argument is that it’s actually irrelevant – I personally tried out Mesmer, and oh boy do they have a kitten amount of spike that they can ready while in stealth for 3-6sec – it’s all they need to pop out clones/phantasms, then GS #2, blink if needed, then shatter next to the enemy. Unless the enemy times their dodge/block etc well, they are as good as dead. I’m not saying Mesmer in their Stealth means win for them 100%, I’m just saying that they have much better spike in or out of stealth than Thieves do.
Pro players who can anticipate backstabs/Mesmer’s spikes well enough can find ways to mitigate their damages, that’s for sure.
My point however is that Thieves just dont have this mass spiking ability that Mesmers have while in their stealth. Thieves have at best a good backstab which doesn’t quite compare to Mesmer’s spike rotation.

Verdict is that Thief, with all it’s Stealth capable glory, is quite lack luster vs. Mesmers/Ranger/Engi and quite possibly Trap Guards in HoT with trapper runes. Imagine that. Trap Guard stealthing in and out whilest having an OP reveal skill on one of their traps. Call it subjective, but however I can see it, Thieves should be the master of Stealth but I see other classes having access to stealth while having better synergy with it.

Funny thing is that Ranger/Engi/Guard, while being able to stealth, also has reveal. To me that’s not very balanced. I mean, I’m not asking for reveal skill for Thieves, since I don’t really give a kitten about whether or not I had them on my Thief. It’s just that it’s like blowing fan on an already burning house that is the current situation of Thieves – it adds insult to injury. They can do better with their Stealth, yet as for Thief… not so much.

I know I’m just ranting and in the end unless Dev’s do something which I doubt, it’ll be more or less a L2P and adapt-to-it situation.. Or just reroll. Nevertheless it’s a sad era for Thieves imo.

Nike.2631:

babazhook.6805:

My own take on why all this “reveal” being added.

Both the engineer and the ranger were given early access to the ability. in spite of ALL the complaints those classes made about stealth they did not put them on their utility bar because as most put it “There better skills to use”. In other words the power of stealth was overstated.

Pardon? You think there aren’t 1.3 million Rangers out there with Longbows and therefor stealth? You’re saying PU Mesmer wasn’t a juggernaut?

Professions that have access to stealth consistently load it. I can hardly wait to smirk and repeat the Thief mantra “Stealth isn’t OP, L2P noob” while on my Runes of the Trapper Dragonhunter.

You obviously did not comprehend what I was saying.

Reveal has existed on two classes long before stealth became pandemic with mesmers and other classes. I play a thief. I rarely encountered a Rager or a Engineer in WvW that traited reveal. This in spite of all the claims that thief was OP.

When I asked why they did not trait it the answer was the same. They had better skills or utilities to use. Logic suggests thta if a skill is claimed OP and a counter given and the class in question does not use that counter, then the skill was not as powerful as claimed.

When I played my own ranger or Engineer I rarely traited reveal as there were plenty of other ways of dealing with a thief in stealth.

All of those other sources of stealth came later. The PU mesmer became a juggernaut only fater the June 23rd patch before that it was not an issue. This because unlike a thief the mesmer relied on shatters and clones/phantasms to do damage and could stealth as they did that damage. There no comparison to the thief.

There are a pile of Longbow rangers in the game. Contrary to your claims I rarely see any that rely on stealth and things like Hunters shot giving stealth harldy makes them OP..

kevvy, you’ve pretty much have brought my argument full circle and i appreciate you closing the gaps i missed. i’ve rerolled as a mesmer and i’m learning it slowly, as i did with thief.

babazhook.6805:

You obviously did not comprehend what I was saying.

Reveal has existed on two classes long before stealth became pandemic with mesmers and other classes. I play a thief. I rarely encountered a Rager or a Engineer in WvW that traited reveal. This in spite of all the claims that thief was OP.

When I asked why they did not trait it the answer was the same. They had better skills or utilities to use. Logic suggests thta if a skill is claimed OP and a counter given and the class in question does not use that counter, then the skill was not as powerful as claimed.

When I played my own ranger or Engineer I rarely traited reveal as there were plenty of other ways of dealing with a thief in stealth.

Exactly…until 2,3 months ago most of engis didnt have to get the “Analyze” trait,because they could deal with stealth classes in other ways (elixir S,toolkit,smoke bomb,a well placed dodge…) and spend that trait point for something better,something more valid in most situations,not just for one type of encounter.Now,if u check WvW (i mostly WvW,so thats what im talking about) in the last months…it has become a swarm of Mesmer and thieves roaming around….and if the numbers of “invisible encounters” keeps growing up,its just natural to have more and more players using those reveal,especially If u know that 8 times outta 10 u will encounter thieves and/or mesmer…

I understand that this wont help thieves and “stealth issues” atall.But its the situation we r in atm.

There is also a strong possibility to see new rune sets with HoT…and maybe some of those sets will help stealth classes to deal with reveal,we only tasted a small bite of the expansion,and imo its still too early.

Achey.3612:

/snip

Yes misdirection very lacking for the thief, I give you that. Mesmers have that market cornered and that is not entirely fair.

That said, you are completely off base with your analysis of the other classes. Their use of stealth being commonly successful is because it is entirely unexpected.

Playing against an engineer for example. You never know which escape or approach he/she may take because he/she has a plethora of options.

Thieves have one and it is easy to predict.

how exactly am i off base. the fact that it’s “entirely unexpected” is a big contributor of misdirection. and i’ve only listed a few of their capabilities. all the things i’ve mentioned above are things i see them do in wvw all the time through my experiences. there could be other things that greatly contribute to their misdirection that i’ve never seen but by no means am i off base.

Achey.3612:

how exactly am i off base. the fact that it’s “entirely unexpected” is a big contributor of misdirection. and i’ve only listed a few of their capabilities. all the things i’ve mentioned above are things i see them do in wvw all the time through my experiences. there could be other things that greatly contribute to their misdirection that i’ve never seen but by no means am i off base.

For one: Engineers do use turrets in the way you describe. As in they are not used at all.

For another: Rangers are not CCing you so that their use of stealth is more effective, they are CCing you for all of the reasons one usually CCs someone.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Achey.3612:

/snip

Playing against an engineer for example. You never know which escape or approach he/she may take because he/she has a plethora of options.

Thieves have one and it is easy to predict.

Thats not true…Engineers have their standards builds too…and due to the fact that many of their utility skills r useless u can pretty much guess what they r running and what u can expect from them:

Havent seen any engi running builds with Technoblade nor Personal Batterin Ram nor Pain Inverter nor Radiation Field as well as a full turrets build…no way in WvW

What’s left are kits,elixirs,rocket jump and slick shoes

Just by looking at their weapons u can guess atleast to 90% what they gonna use: rifle power builds,P/P (burning build) or P/S (misc) for condies…thats it.
And u can also kinda predict whats next most of the times…engi combos are very simple:

• Net shot =>burst inc (Overcharged Shot =>Jump Shot =>Blunderbuss and Grande Barrage) in any Static Discharge build
• Magnet => inc 5 Confusion stack

I can give u might not know what conditions or the number of conditions u will recive from an engi…but u cannot actually talk about “plethora of options” because in reality they dont have many options either,variety speaking.

An engi could surprise u with a smoke field + blast finisher to get a very long stealth…but to get those 10 seconds he has to blow up :

• Big Oil bomb
• Healing turret
• Magnetic Shield (if hes running with a shield)
• Rocket jump

Rarely an engi engage like that