New raid build - thief not useless
(edited by Swiftwynd.1685)
Assuming others provide the 25 might and fury, which any good comp should, it simply has the highest sustained damage in the game. The rotation is a simple dodge, staff 2, then a full auto chain while you reposition.
This combines a huge list of modifiers and strictly speaking is the highest direct damage build available. Dare devil alone adds 10% 10% and 7% mods. Then you have all the ones from crit strikes and deadly arts.
Staff 2 on a large hitbox is the most initiative efficent damage outside of low health heartseeker. You can also deal damage during situations where most other classes have to stop their damage to either dodge or use cc, since both your xodge and cc skills contribute good damage.
Laslty, invigorating precision transfers your damage into slef sustain making you very durable during a fight even without a healer.
The only reason Heralds appear to have crazy damage is Quickness uptime, but a good chronomancer can time warp every 30 seconds, and a heralds f2 buff can extend that quickness better than the herald using impossible odds, so the thief can have their better base damage buffed even higher with all of the offensive support from others.
Basically, while a thief doesnt bring offensive support, it benefits the most from offensive support provided by others rather than doubling up on say 3 revs or extra warriors or chronos.
Care to expand on this build?
I left some parts empty, cause I’m pretty undecided on what to use in order to maximize DPS.
For example, runes, since we are always under might, better to use Strength (+5% dmg with 100% uptime), Scholar or Daredevil?
Sigil: Fire + Air or Air + Force?
2nd weapon set?
Thank you in advance.
Assuming others provide the 25 might and fury, which any good comp should, it simply has the highest sustained damage in the game. The rotation is a simple dodge, staff 2, then a full auto chain while you reposition.
This combines a huge list of modifiers and strictly speaking is the highest direct damage build available. Dare devil alone adds 10% 10% and 7% mods. Then you have all the ones from crit strikes and deadly arts.
Staff 2 on a large hitbox is the most initiative efficent damage outside of low health heartseeker. You can also deal damage during situations where most other classes have to stop their damage to either dodge or use cc, since both your xodge and cc skills contribute good damage.
Laslty, invigorating precision transfers your damage into slef sustain making you very durable during a fight even without a healer.
The only reason Heralds appear to have crazy damage is Quickness uptime, but a good chronomancer can time warp every 30 seconds, and a heralds f2 buff can extend that quickness better than the herald using impossible odds, so the thief can have their better base damage buffed even higher with all of the offensive support from others.
Basically, while a thief doesnt bring offensive support, it benefits the most from offensive support provided by others rather than doubling up on say 3 revs or extra warriors or chronos.
Care to expand on this build?
I left some parts empty, cause I’m pretty undecided on what to use in order to maximize DPS.
For example, runes, since we are always under might, better to use Strength (+5% dmg with 100% uptime), Scholar or Daredevil?
Sigil: Fire + Air or Air + Force?
2nd weapon set?Thank you in advance.
For goreseval you want dagger mainhand for off set to spam heartseaker sub 25% health. Force and air for max damage still. Off hand is up to you.
Dagger pistol would be decent if additional mobility is needed on fights.
For gores fight you are perma revealed so revealed power is always active.
The goal is to try to stay full health and avoid the stuns to keep your damage flowing. Its hard because his animations dont appear to synch up well with the actual damage. Im still working on improving with my dodges.
Assuming you dont have to time the dodge, your normal rotation is dosge, staff 2, auto chain while you move into next dodge position. Landing the dodge takes some getting used to.
If you have your dodge buff going, and your boss is stunned like after breaking gore’s breakbar, spam the crap out of 2 to burn through your initiative since he will be moved shortly after, then use auto chain and fist flurry as fillers. Or use fist flurry and impact strike to help with breakbar.
(edited by Zero Day.2594)
For goreseval you want dagger mainhand for off set to spam heartseaker sub 25% health. Force and air for max damage still. Off hand is up to you.
Dagger pistol would be decent if additional mobility is needed on fights.
For gores fight you are perma revealed so revealed power is always active.
The goal is to try to stay full health and avoid the stuns to keep your damage flowing. Its hard because his animations dont appear to synch up well with the actual damage. Im still working on improving with my dodges.
Assuming you dont have to time the dodge, your normal rotation is dosge, staff 2, auto chain while you move into next dodge position. Landing the dodge takes some getting used to.
If you have your dodge buff going, and your boss is stunned like after breaking gore’s breakbar, spam the crap out of 2 to burn through your initiative since he will be moved shortly after, then use auto chain and fist flurry as fillers. Or use fist flurry and impact strike to help with breakbar.
Ty for the infos. Just a quick question, after looking at some videos of Gorseval, it seems to me that the revealed debuff is active only during the first 25% of the combat, after that no one has any revealed debuff active.
Am I missing something about that?
(edited by Swiftwynd.1685)
Simply put, no class will “add more total damage to the raid” than a Daredevil if your offensive support needs are sufficiently met.
nice world u are living in… thief most dmg
made my day. rev with autoattack makes way more dps just by standing at the boss and do nothing but AA. no matter which buffs are on both classes
Simply put, no class will “add more total damage to the raid” than a Daredevil if your offensive support needs are sufficiently met.
nice world u are living in… thief most dmg
Sigh … math time!
Revenant Auto Attack chain with the sword is certainly GOOD damage, that cannot be ignored, but with that said, it only appears to be stronger than other class’s options due to the Revenant’s access to Quickness.
Revenant’s entire sword attack chain takes 2.05 seconds for the whole sequence and does a combined total of 226 (0.82) + 355 (0.97) + 330 (0.97) + 110 (0.3) = 1021 (3.06) damage.
Ignoring all other modifiers, this is 498.04 (1.493) Damage per second. The ( ) number is the attack modifier from Weapon and Power.
Looking at Daredevil Staff, we have:
Total Duration: 2.14 (only .09 slower than Rev Sword)
215 (0.55) + 254 (0.65) + 516 (1.32) = 985 (2.52)
So at face value, Revenant’s Sword out performs Daredevil’s staff on the auto attack comparison, fair enough.
But, this is without considering damage modifiers, which we will cover next:
Daredevil Max Damage Raid Build has the following Modifiers:
Daredevil:
- Havoc Master: +7%
- Staff Master: +10% (condition: endurance not full)
- Bounding Dodger: 10% (condition: Dodge at least once every 4 seconds) Bonus: Dodge deals SIGNIFICANT damage, but I don’t have exact numbers, can hit10k in raids, which is damage dealt while most other classes have none (Rev can use sword 3 for this though)
Critical Strikes:
- Keen Observer/Flawless Strikes: 5% Crit Chance and 7% Crit Damage (Condition: Health Above 90%)
- Ferocious Strikes: +10% Crit Damage (Condition: foe is above 50% Health)
- Practiced Tolerance: 10% Precision converted to Ferocity (+14.27% Crit Damage in full ascended berserker with Signet of Agility, more if running Assassin mixed in)
- No Quarter: 250 Ferocity (16.66% Crit Damage, although I’d highly recommend running Invigorating Precision, this would be for those super elite Daredevil who can avoid all the damage)
Deadly Arts:
- Expose Weakness: +10% (Condition: Foe has a Condition, aka always)
- Executioner: 20% bonus damage (Condition: foe below 50%)
- Mug: Steal gains burst damage and heal, does not interrupt other abilities so pure damage and sustain bonus
- Revealed Training: Goreseval applies some reveal so this gives 200 power for a time during the fight.
Total Combined Modifiers at a given time: +87.7% (or 29.4% if not considering the increases to Ferocity at a 1:1 ratio and keeping them out of the equation)
Situation 1: Foe above 50%, you are above 90%, and you are using Dodge appropriately, foe has at least 1 condition: 10% * 10% * 7% * (+48% Crit Damage increase, which is = to flat damage increases at 100% Crit, which this build should hit with food/group buffs and the appropriate Assassin trinkets etc) = a total of +87.7% damage modifier if you multiply them together, as they all stack multiplicative.
Crit Damage might be slightly wonky since its a +48% to a base of +150% thats already been increased to 220% via ascended Berserker stats, but even ignoring that, it would still be a 29.4% damage increase even not considering the critical strike damage bonus already in non-crit related modifiers. For crit damage bonuses actual impact, it is increasing the 220% of berserker stats to 268%, which is a 21.9% actual increase in actual damage, which can be multiplied directly with the existing flat bonuses if the build reaches 100% critical hit, which it can.
This leaves us with a grand total damage increase of 57.74% damage against foes over 50% health while we maintain our modifiers.
For foes below 50% but with all other conditions met, you trade out the +10% Crit Damage and gain +20% raw damage modifier.
So: +45.65 base damage and +17.2% damage mod from crit (this is lower now since we lose the +10% crit damage on foes above 50%), for a total of:
+70.7% damage modifiers against low health targets while maintaining our other conditions.
Last but not least, you have Signets for +180 Power/Precision, which Revenants do not have.
Now lets compare Revenant’s damage modifiers:
Shiro:
- Targeted Destruction: +7% Damage (Condition: Foe has Vuln, read ALWAYS)
- Vicious Lacerations: +10% Damage (Condition: Must be constantly Sword meleeing without interruption, can be lost if forced out of melee or if forced to swap to CC breakbar)
- Assassin’s Presence: 150 Ferocity to party (10% Crit Damage to 5 people, undeniably solid)
- Swift Termination: +20% damage to foes below 50%.
Invocation:
- Ferocious Aggression: +7% damage while you have Fury (always essentially)
Herald:
- Elder’s Force: +2% per boon (lets assume Might, Fury, Swiftness, Quickness, Regeneration, and Vigor are maintained with high up time, heck even throw in Protection, so 14% maybe but 10% realistically.
This means assuming the best case:
Above 50% on foe a Herald maintains the following modifiers:
14% * 7% 10% * 7% = 43% base damage modifier and a +10% crit damage mod, increasing Berserker’s 220% to 230%, a +4.5% damage increase, totaling to a grand total of a *49.4% increase in damage.
For targets below 50% health, this increases to:
79% base increase
So with that said, you would be fair to assume that the Revenant has the upper hand, yes?
Wrong.
All of the above is primarily considering purely auto attacking, which the Herald build simply wins over hand a fist by having a much better base auto attack AND better modifiers.
But Auto-attacking is purely the best damage rotation a Herald can do. Daredevils use initiative for the bulk of their damage.
Lets look at the workhorse of the Daredevil’s damage, the attack that makes them the highest DPS in the game on big boned bosses like Goreseval:
Weakening Charge (well, AND Dagger’s Heartseeker sub 25% is a close contender).
Weakening Charge has 822 (2.1) damage dealt over 1/2 a second for 3 initiative.
For comparison, Heartseeker has less damage when a foe is sub 25% (672 (2.0))
So why is Weakening Charge allowed to have such colossal damage potential? Because it is traditionally difficult to land all three hits on a normal hit box, requiring really strong positioning and timing, all of which lowers its actual potential dps.
But no so on big fatty mc fatpants Gorseval. Its exceedingly easy to land all three hits on mr tubby, so you can realize its full damage potential consistently. Heartseeker wins out against a highly mobile smaller body, and thus is still the better “assassination” tool in PvP to keep up with fleeing foes.
For a comparison, one weakening charge can be completed in essentially half a second, with some small after cast delay. That said, it can be used very quickly is the gist of it.
In that time, it can do its 822 (2.1) damage, which when we can compare the Heralds auto attack chain, which is 1021 (3.06) but over 2 seconds to complete.
A Daredevil can easily insert two Weakening Charges in the time it takes a Herald to complete one full non-quickness auto chain, for a total of 1644 (4.2) damage.
This means that, in this scenario, ignoring all modifiers and just base weapons, if a Daredevil could maintain spamming Weakening Charge for ever (hint, it cant) it would be dealing 61% more base damage, and 37% better power/weapon scaling damage.
While a Daredevil certainly CANNOT maintain Weakening Charge spam for ever, it can have a very high up-time on it. The “easiest” rotation is Dodge into foe, Weakening charge, Auto-attack chain while re-positioning, and repeat.
In real numbers, what I’ve seen in a non optimized raid looks something like a 10,000 dodge, 18,000 or higher Weakening Charge hitting three times for 6k, and ending with a 20,000+ ish total auto chain that is admittedly lower than Revs, repeated every 4 seconds.
The only thing that slows down this tempo is running out of dodges, which can be renewed a bit with Channeled Vigor, taking a 3/4 second break in dps to heal to full and recover two dodges.
Now, in burst phases of maximum damage, the rotation becomes Dodge, Weakening Strike x4, dodge, Weakening Strike. This will run the thief out of Initiative and/or Endurance. This is where you fill the damage gap with Fist Flurry (1,625 + 739 + non-critting 1,940 base damage, quite high!) and then auto attacks, or use this time to reposition or deal with a fight’s mechanic. Frontloading 4 Weakening charges into a 4 second time frame, in the un-optimized groups i was in, could still result in 82,000 damage over a 4 to 5 second period, aka around a 20k dps burst. Hint: Gorseval has a stunned phase after breaking his bar when this is a “good idea.”
Unless you need to save Fist Flurry for its Daze on a break bar, of course.
This comes to the final section of why Dare Devil is amazing. It doesn’t have to stop its dps to dodge OR to deal with break bears.
Like i mentioned earlier, if a Herald wishes to deal with a break bar, he can: Glint ult (long cast), Shiro ult (really long cast) or swap to staff and use staff 5 (amazing breakbar, but severely cuts into the damage rotation until they can swap back.)
Daredevil on the other hand simply uses Fist Flurry into Impact Stike, one of his highest damage options, following by the first two hits of Impact Strike and Uppercut, both of which are very quick, gap close slightly, AND do decent damage, and dont impact the thief’s energy mechanics, while Herald’s energy must be expended in some form to use their CC breaks.
And last but not least, Vault. Vault regularly hits for over 22,000 in raids, and is a great tool to reposition yourself while having to be mobile AND do damage. It is far less efficient than Weakening strike, but it has the Evade at the start, is 5 target AoE, and helps you get to places without really sacrificing your dps (so does steal as well, but it has a timer.)
Combine all of these together, with the signet’s free power and precision, with Fist Flurry’s great damage and free daze, with Impact Strikes good damage, Vaults great damage, positioning, and utlity, and the “decent but not best” auto attack damage, and Weakening Charge’s batkittenbananas good damage, and all of the afformentioned modifiers that bring the Daredevil just barely below the Herald’s, and you can quickly see how the Daredevil performs so well as a function “real world” top dps class in the game.
It doesn’t need condition damage build up time. It doesn’t have super heavily stationary dps rotations. It can do its damage while mobile. It can sacrifice some damage to life steal itself to full health constantly to maintain its Scholar and other +90% health buffs, and it just looks SO MUCH COOLER than autoattacking with Rev’s sword :P Fashion Wars 2, amiright?
This is why the Daredevil is the best “all in damage guy” to bring once your other conditions are met.
Have your PS Warrior with banners and might stacking?
Have your Druid with spotter and all their lovely flat damage buffs?
Have a Herald to buff the duration of everyone’s boons while maintaining Fury and adding great dps?
Have a Chrono to tank and maintain Alacrity and Quickness on everyone by combining with the Herald?
Add in the Daredevil to take all those lovely, awesome offensive support options to multiply them into a truly devastating raid DPS. And take a Condi Berserker or Enginee in your second group
EDIT: This is 2am math for me, if ANYTHING is incorrect please correct me, I really dont want to be spreading inaccurate information.
(edited by Swiftwynd.1685)
Simply put, no class will “add more total damage to the raid” than a Daredevil if your offensive support needs are sufficiently met.
nice world u are living in… thief most dmg
In real numbers, what I’ve seen in a non optimized raid looks something like a 10,000 dodge, 18,000 or higher Weakening Charge hitting three times for 6k, and ending with a 20,000+ ish total auto chain that is admittedly lower than Revs, repeated every 4 seconds.
And last but not least, Vault. Vault regularly hits for over 22,000 in raids, and is a great tool to reposition yourself while having to be mobile AND do damage. It is far less efficient than Weakening strike, but it has the Evade at the start, is 5 target AoE, and helps you get to places without really sacrificing your dps (so does steal as well, but it has a timer.)
Dare devil damage is good, you are even being really conservative with the damage of the dare devil, unless Gorseval has more thoughness than the vale guardian, I have defeated the Vale guardian, but I have´t tried Goreseval yet, so I don´t know.
In a pug group in the Vale Guardian my dodge hits from 12k to 16k, weakening strike from 8500 to 10200per hit (so like 30600 max) and vault from 26000 to 32000. (those numbers are aproximate, I don´t remember the exact numbers.)
(edited by BlueDragon.7054)
Simply put, no class will “add more total damage to the raid” than a Daredevil if your offensive support needs are sufficiently met.
nice world u are living in… thief most dmg
In real numbers, what I’ve seen in a non optimized raid looks something like a 10,000 dodge, 18,000 or higher Weakening Charge hitting three times for 6k, and ending with a 20,000+ ish total auto chain that is admittedly lower than Revs, repeated every 4 seconds.
And last but not least, Vault. Vault regularly hits for over 22,000 in raids, and is a great tool to reposition yourself while having to be mobile AND do damage. It is far less efficient than Weakening strike, but it has the Evade at the start, is 5 target AoE, and helps you get to places without really sacrificing your dps (so does steal as well, but it has a timer.)
Dare devil damage is good, you are even being really conservative with the damage of the dare devil, unless Gorseval has more thoughness than the vale guardian, I have defeated the Vale guardian, but I have´t tried Goreseval yet, so I don´t know.
In a pug group in the Vale Guardian my dodge hits from 12k to 16k, weakening strike from 8500 to 10200per hit (so like 30600 max) and vault from 26000 to 32000. (those numbers are aproximate, I don´t remember the exact numbers.)
Exactly. My group was very unoptimized it didnt have a good ps warrior and druid wasnt coordinating his damage buffs for burst phase.
Another thing i forgot to mention is daredevil is the only class in the game that can compress a lot of their damage potential front loaded into a 6 second window if needed, which is perfect for a druid popping all their damage buffs at once along with the chrono.
Two dodges and 5 weakening charges with quickness and full druid buffs is rediculously far and away the best burst dps in the game.
Simply put, no class will “add more total damage to the raid” than a Daredevil if your offensive support needs are sufficiently met.
nice world u are living in… thief most dmg
In real numbers, what I’ve seen in a non optimized raid looks something like a 10,000 dodge, 18,000 or higher Weakening Charge hitting three times for 6k, and ending with a 20,000+ ish total auto chain that is admittedly lower than Revs, repeated every 4 seconds.
And last but not least, Vault. Vault regularly hits for over 22,000 in raids, and is a great tool to reposition yourself while having to be mobile AND do damage. It is far less efficient than Weakening strike, but it has the Evade at the start, is 5 target AoE, and helps you get to places without really sacrificing your dps (so does steal as well, but it has a timer.)
Dare devil damage is good, you are even being really conservative with the damage of the dare devil, unless Gorseval has more thoughness than the vale guardian, I have defeated the Vale guardian, but I have´t tried Goreseval yet, so I don´t know.
In a pug group in the Vale Guardian my dodge hits from 12k to 16k, weakening strike from 8500 to 10200per hit (so like 30600 max) and vault from 26000 to 32000. (those numbers are aproximate, I don´t remember the exact numbers.)
Exactly. My group was very unoptimized it didnt have a good ps warrior and druid wasnt coordinating his damage buffs for burst phase.
Another thing i forgot to mention is daredevil is the only class in the game that can compress a lot of their damage potential front loaded into a 6 second window if needed, which is perfect for a druid popping all their damage buffs at once along with the chrono.
Two dodges and 5 weakening charges with quickness and full druid buffs is rediculously far and away the best burst dps in the game.
Yeah, and the damage can go higher, that damage was using invigorating presition instead of no quarter while the boss was above 50%. I saw in reddit a thief that made 41k vault on vale guardian.
Also unfortunately I didnt have the scholar runes because I used to play solo alot and sometimes with groups that didnt have enough fury before Hot, and I spent all my gold getting the ascended staff(sorry to my squad for not having the max possible damage build).
But even with that we were getting really good times, phase 1 at 6 minutes 50 seconds usually ,with 1 or 2 teleported during that phase sometimes, so we could have done it a little faster . I know it can be done at 7 but 6.50 is not bad.
(edited by Ensign.2189)
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”