Guild Wars 2

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The cheesiness of a condi-build is not because their target has no cleanse, rather the fact that their build is so tanky while dealing a lot of armor ignoring damage.

A power-build has to trade survivability for damage and their damage is mitigated by armor — this is not the case for condi-builds, that’s why it’s cheesy.

Let’s talk hypothetical DPS numbers here.

A power-build can trade some DPS for survivability. What it gets out of that is the ability to hit a target for a longer period of time and overcome their evades and blocks. While the DPS might be lower vs. a target just sitting there, the overall damage dealt is greater given that sustain.

Now, a condition build is going to out damage against a zero cleanse build assuming they dodge and block. This makes sense because they are focused on avoiding melee damage only. Now if they run any sort of condition clear the power-build is going to out damage the condition build. This makes sense too.

Convert condition damage numbers to total final damage. Opening attack is around 20k without cleanse. Let’s assume 25k. Cleanse should cut that damage down to 8k, depending. You want to claim condition damage is too strong when a power build with decent sustain (marauder’s stats) can hit 8-10k repeatedly in a short time frame?

If condi thief is cheese then might as well just say you would like all damage conditions removed from the game.

saerni.2584:

If condi thief is cheese then might as well just say you would like all damage conditions removed from the game.

Conditions also impair my game play.
Condi revenant has got torment and taunt on the same weaponset – nifty!
Condis shouldn’t be removed but balanced – the latter might never happen.

Impair in what way? If we are talking about balance we should know what the problem is exactly. Is it damage we are talking about?

saerni.2584:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The cheesiness of a condi-build is not because their target has no cleanse, rather the fact that their build is so tanky while dealing a lot of armor ignoring damage.

A power-build has to trade survivability for damage and their damage is mitigated by armor — this is not the case for condi-builds, that’s why it’s cheesy.

Let’s talk hypothetical DPS numbers here.

A power-build can trade some DPS for survivability. What it gets out of that is the ability to hit a target for a longer period of time and overcome their evades and blocks. While the DPS might be lower vs. a target just sitting there, the overall damage dealt is greater given that sustain.

Now, a condition build is going to out damage against a zero cleanse build assuming they dodge and block. This makes sense because they are focused on avoiding melee damage only. Now if they run any sort of condition clear the power-build is going to out damage the condition build. This makes sense too.

Convert condition damage numbers to total final damage. Opening attack is around 20k without cleanse. Let’s assume 25k. Cleanse should cut that damage down to 8k, depending. You want to claim condition damage is too strong when a power build with decent sustain (marauder’s stats) can hit 8-10k repeatedly in a short time frame?

If condi thief is cheese then might as well just say you would like all damage conditions removed from the game.

Let me repeat;

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The cheesiness of a condi-build is not because their target has no cleanse, rather the fact that their build is so tanky while dealing a lot of armor ignoring damage.

saerni.2584:

Impair in what way? If we are talking about balance we should know what the problem is exactly. Is it damage we are talking about?

“Impair in what way” are you serious?
Poison reduces my heal by 33%, freeze lets my skills recharge a lot more slowly and I’m also moving more slowly, torment hurts me more if I run, taunt makes me run towards my enemy… need more?

ETA: And yes, condis should be balanced all around, their damage, their duration, how easily they can be applied and be taken off. Right now they’re overpowered.

And I’m asking what in particular you think needs to be changed to bring them into “balance.” Just saying “balance it” doesn’t help Anet or anyone understand what is being proposed as a practical matter.

Poison has always been 33% reduction in heal power. Do you think the 33% itself is overpowered? Is it the duration of poison some skills apply? Torment, same questions. Is it the duration or the damage or the mechanic you think shouldn’t be as strong? Taunt, is it the duration or the mechanic itself?

And to answer you Vincent — your bolded text says “too much damage” and I attempted to debunk the idea that, in fact, the damage was all that strong. Conditions can be blocked/evaded/passively cleared/actively cleared. Another implication of your bolded text is that there isn’t enough condition clear. I can’t speak to every classes condition clear. For thief we have many active utility clears and semi-passive condition clear traits (trickster, shadow’s rejuvenation, escapist’s absolution, pain response).

Maybe the issue is less our condition clears and more fundamentally our low base HP which makes conditions more effective even with a substantial number of condition clears. Conditions are very powerful against a low HP pool. Maybe, given that there has been noticeable power creep where other classes damage is concerned, we should simply ask for more base HP to deal with conditions. (It takes time to press active clears, and even a single extra tick of conditions will impact low HP classes more).

saerni.2584:

And to answer you Vincent — your bolded text says “too much damage” and I attempted to debunk the idea that, in fact, the damage was all that strong. Conditions can be blocked/evaded/passively cleared/actively cleared. Another implication of your bolded text is that there isn’t enough condition clear. I can’t speak to every classes condition clear. For thief we have many active utility clears and semi-passive condition clear traits (trickster, shadow’s rejuvenation, escapist’s absolution, pain response).

I’m sorry that you still fail to understand what I’ve posted. Nowhere in the bolded text was it ever implied “too much damage” — rather my point was, the condi-build never have to sacrifice survivability to gain the level of damage they can put out. Power-build often has to sacrifice survivability and utility to achieve the same amount of damage as condi-build. The main reason for this sacrifice is due to the fact that power-build damage can be easily mitigated by armor while condi-build damage ignores armor.

I wasn’t talking about “too much damage” neither the availability of cleanse.

No, that is exactly what you mean when you say “the condi-build never have to sacrifice survivability to gain the level of damage they can put out” — meaning that, for the survivability, you think there is “too much damage.”

In most cases condition builds deal relatively better damage per unit of defense when compared to power counterparts.

This is especially the case with dire gear, which has the best damage output : damage negation ratio of all sets in the game by quite a large margin.

saerni.2584:

No, that is exactly what you mean when you say “the condi-build never have to sacrifice survivability to gain the level of damage they can put out” — meaning that, for the survivability, you think there is “too much damage.”

No, you’re jumping to a wrong conclusion.

Let me put it this way.
- Power-build – 1,000 DPS – sacrifices toughness and utility to counter the armor damage mitigation
- Condi-build – 1,000 DPS – tanky, no sacrifices

Sir Vincent III.1286:

saerni.2584:

No, that is exactly what you mean when you say “the condi-build never have to sacrifice survivability to gain the level of damage they can put out” — meaning that, for the survivability, you think there is “too much damage.”

No, you’re jumping to a wrong conclusion.

Let me put it this way.
- Power-build – 1,000 DPS – sacrifices toughness and utility to counter the armor damage mitigation
- Condi-build – 1,000 DPS – tanky, no sacrifices

Not fully true. Condition builds (aside from a few outliers) will typically deal lower damage than their power counterparts and will offer corresponding durability increases, or in the cases of dealing similar or slightly better damage, will be done on builds like Sinister and Viper’s gear which offer no defensive stats.

That said, conditions should be balanced around being negated by toughness or should consequently never deal optimal damage, which I think the latter was the original intention, but people cried so ANet felt a need to oblige.

A more appropriate analogy is something (anecdotal/simplified for the sake of argument) like:

Berserker = 2000 outgoing DPS per defensive unit, 2000 incoming DPS per offensive unit (1 : 1)
Carrion = 1500 outgoing DPS per defensive unit, 1500 incoming DPS per offensive unit (1 : 1)
Dire = (1200 outgoing DPS per defensive unit, 800 incoming DPS per offensive unit (1.5 : 1)

Against “evened” builds/stat distributions (PvE monsters). Against glass, berserker does better by a small margin. Against tank-built players, conditions are superior by a large margin.

For this reason Dire gear isn’t/wasn’t included for sPvP; it’s objectively too strong for its outgoing vs incoming damage ratio compared to others. That’s more or less where the problems truly lie, and removal of Dire would resolve a lot of complaints and concerns for WvW to say the least.

saerni.2584:

And I’m asking what in particular you think needs to be changed to bring them into “balance.” Just saying “balance it” doesn’t help Anet or anyone understand what is being proposed as a practical matter.

Poison has always been 33% reduction in heal power. Do you think the 33% itself is overpowered? Is it the duration of poison some skills apply? Torment, same questions. Is it the duration or the damage or the mechanic you think shouldn’t be as strong? Taunt, is it the duration or the mechanic itself?

I kind of already answered that, maybe you read my ETA too late. I can manipulate my opponent’s playstyle with condis. So I’m not only doing damage but “control” my enemy. Since there’s typical power and condi sets (D/D being hybrid) sometimes these control mechanisms are a bit too much (torment and taunt on the same set – haven’t seen it in action but I bet that the enemy will get the full torment damage because of taunt).
Most condi clears are selective, so I have to chose which heal I want to take against what condis – trickster helps with that but the old SE still was better, in my opinion.
So, if you’re a condi build chances are that a few of your condis can’t be cleared by the condi cleanse of the enemy. So it’s not just “bring condi clear!!”. And I think anet should have a look into that and bring condis on par with power.

Run D/P run SA /problem solved.

ezpz condi thieves free kills.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

saerni.2584:

No, that is exactly what you mean when you say “the condi-build never have to sacrifice survivability to gain the level of damage they can put out” — meaning that, for the survivability, you think there is “too much damage.”

No, you’re jumping to a wrong conclusion.

Let me put it this way.
- Power-build – 1,000 DPS – sacrifices toughness and utility to counter the armor damage mitigation
- Condi-build – 1,000 DPS – tanky, no sacrifices

Not fully true. Condition builds (aside from a few outliers) will typically deal lower damage than their power counterparts and will offer corresponding durability increases, or in the cases of dealing similar or slightly better damage, will be done on builds like Sinister and Viper’s gear which offer no defensive stats.

That said, conditions should be balanced around being negated by toughness or should consequently never deal optimal damage, which I think the latter was the original intention, but people cried so ANet felt a need to oblige.

A more appropriate analogy is something (anecdotal/simplified for the sake of argument) like:

Berserker = 2000 outgoing DPS per defensive unit, 2000 incoming DPS per offensive unit (1 : 1)
Carrion = 1500 outgoing DPS per defensive unit, 1500 incoming DPS per offensive unit (1 : 1)
Dire = (1200 outgoing DPS per defensive unit, 800 incoming DPS per offensive unit (1.5 : 1)

Against “evened” builds/stat distributions (PvE monsters). Against glass, berserker does better by a small margin. Against tank-built players, conditions are superior by a large margin.

For this reason Dire gear isn’t/wasn’t included for sPvP; it’s objectively too strong for its outgoing vs incoming damage ratio compared to others. That’s more or less where the problems truly lie, and removal of Dire would resolve a lot of complaints and concerns for WvW to say the least.

That’s addressing the wrong problem though. The problem is not that condi-build deals a lot of damage (my example was hypothetical meant to focus on the sacrifices than the damage) rather it is a really tanky build. IMO, the best approach is to lower the condi-build’s survivability for the more damage they make.

Compare to power-build, I can load-up conditions then hide in stealth while my conditions ticks for a lot of damage without counter play. Power-build cannot hide in stealth because doing so they won’t be doing any damage, thus they are exposed to counter plays. Even if the condi-build don’t hide in stealth, they can kite all day and not worry about their survivability because they are already tanky to begin with. All it takes is a healthy stacks of Confusion to kill a power-build which can also be used as a defensive to stop power-builds from attacking.

That’s more or less a fundamental issue with stealth and DoT effects and how our application methods are all pretty safe, rather than conditions as a whole.

If the best options for a thief to apply conditions involved self-inflicting the Revealed debuff (or not evading while dealing damage), people playing such builds would need to much more carefully evaluate when and when not to stack the conditions to begin with.

Confusion as it is currently designed is a busted mechanic; for even the act of cleansing it deals damage, which makes no sense.

DeceiverX.8361:

That’s more or less a fundamental issue with stealth and DoT effects and how our application methods are all pretty safe, rather than conditions as a whole.

Yup a survivability issue, that’s why it’s cheesy.

If the best options for a thief to apply conditions involved self-inflicting the Revealed debuff (or not evading while dealing damage), people playing such builds would need to much more carefully evaluate when and when not to stack the conditions to begin with.

Please, no more Revealed. All they need to do is get rid of Dire sets and we’re good. The hiding in stealth is not a big issue, it’s the tankiness.

Confusion as it is currently designed is a busted mechanic; for even the act of cleansing it deals damage, which makes no sense.

Thus it is “confusion”…lol, ok that’s bad.

Almost all applications of conditions from stealth take a thief out of stealth and add revealed debuff so that is already the case.

In the PvP context all the super tanky armor has been removed as I understand it to promote more fast paced play. This doesn’t mean that a meta in which people can tank longer is inherently bad, it just means that for the purposes of e-sports and pacing for individual matches they wanted to increase the risk for everyone. Therefore why dire and now soldiers are not available in those matches.

Thief is the most limited HP class. Full dire produces HP of around 20k. Many classes get far more than that and need not used vitality granting armor. The same is true on the armor side as well. Thief bunker is, the least, or one of the least, “bunker” of the bunker builds, which is perhaps why I am less concerned with it.

Also, as an example, the HoT armor set that adds condition duration in exchange for less vitality/toughness actually REDUCES my overall damage. I have two of those for weapons, because that optimizes my damage — but a full set that reduces my hp/armor literally reduces my damage. I’m not wedded to the idea that I need maximum tank and damage…but the alternatives either require I take stats that don’t matter to me (like precision) or get less damage than Dire offers.

saerni.2584:

Almost all applications of conditions from stealth take a thief out of stealth and add revealed debuff so that is already the case.

That is so far from the truth.

In the PvP context all the super tanky armor has been removed as I understand it to promote more fast paced play. This doesn’t mean that a meta in which people can tank longer is inherently bad, it just means that for the purposes of e-sports and pacing for individual matches they wanted to increase the risk for everyone. Therefore why dire and now soldiers are not available in those matches.

Thief is the most limited HP class. Full dire produces HP of around 20k. Many classes get far more than that and need not used vitality granting armor. The same is true on the armor side as well. Thief bunker is, the least, or one of the least, “bunker” of the bunker builds, which is perhaps why I am less concerned with it.

Also, as an example, the HoT armor set that adds condition duration in exchange for less vitality/toughness actually REDUCES my overall damage. I have two of those for weapons, because that optimizes my damage — but a full set that reduces my hp/armor literally reduces my damage. I’m not wedded to the idea that I need maximum tank and damage…but the alternatives either require I take stats that don’t matter to me (like precision) or get less damage than Dire offers.

1500 condition damage is mostly the sweet spot in most condi-builds. So a typical PvP condi-build of Undead Rune + Carrion + Bursting Sigil = 2100 armor, 20k HP, 1500 Condi dmg. The only thing that this build is sacrificing is condition duration which is not a big deal. A typical Dire build will grant more toughness but maintaining the same level of 1500 condition damage. So your belief that you get less damage than Dire is not factual.

I’m talking about trailblazer armor vs dire armor. Two weapons of trailblazer is worth it. Not more.

Are you calling for carrion armor to have more condition damage? That seems fair if you discount that carrion already gets a boost in the form of direct damage. Carrion works for hybrid builds, such as with sinister armor, with varying degrees of critical chance, vitality, or toughness. Hybrid armor can counter high condi clear and high armor builds because it does both damage types. That is the trade off.

Before diamond skin was changed, for example, a pure condition build could not reduce the tempest/elementalist below 90%. Fundamentally impossible. Now that’s changed but it shows how minimal the direct damage is for a pure condi build. Hybrid gain’s all the benefits of condi power AND gets greater direct damage. There’s your trade off.

I don’t find the need to spec a glass build on my power-thief build. Similarly, I don’t build a glass build on condi.

I still reject your argument that thief A (power) does the same DPS as thief B (condi) but thief B gets more defense. I think thief A (power) gets more burst DPS than thief B (condi), which means that thief B can either (1) add in more dps by going sinister, (2) add in more defense by going dire, (3) middle ground with other hybrid armor. So either thief B gets more defense due to lower DPS or equivalent DPS/armor/defense depending on armor/stat choice. I have yet to see actual substantiated proof that a thief hitting a heavily armored (3k+) target cannot still out DPS a condi build with no hybrid damage.

saerni.2584:

I’m talking about trailblazer armor vs dire armor. Two weapons of trailblazer is worth it. Not more.

Are you calling for carrion armor to have more condition damage? That seems fair if you discount that carrion already gets a boost in the form of direct damage. Carrion works for hybrid builds, such as with sinister armor, with varying degrees of critical chance, vitality, or toughness. Hybrid armor can counter high condi clear and high armor builds because it does both damage types. That is the trade off.

Before diamond skin was changed, for example, a pure condition build could not reduce the tempest/elementalist below 90%. Fundamentally impossible. Now that’s changed but it shows how minimal the direct damage is for a pure condi build. Hybrid gain’s all the benefits of condi power AND gets greater direct damage. There’s your trade off.

I don’t find the need to spec a glass build on my power-thief build. Similarly, I don’t build a glass build on condi.

I still reject your argument that thief A (power) does the same DPS as thief B (condi) but thief B gets more defense. I think thief A (power) gets more burst DPS than thief B (condi), which means that thief B can either (1) add in more dps by going sinister, (2) add in more defense by going dire, (3) middle ground with other hybrid armor. So either thief B gets more defense due to lower DPS or equivalent DPS/armor/defense depending on armor/stat choice. I have yet to see actual substantiated proof that a thief hitting a heavily armored (3k+) target cannot still out DPS a condi build with no hybrid damage.

You’re not acknowledging the fact that power-build’s damage are mitigated by armor while condition damage ignores armor. You can reject whatever you want but the facts remain the facts.

You falsely assume that by not going Dire that the damage output is low, however I’ve showed you that the only difference between Dire and Carrion is toughness — which is what you sacrifice for power.

Now you’re falsely assuming that going Sinister will suddenly increase your condition damage output when in fact the amount of condition damage remains the same.

Carrior gets 1500 condition damage. Dire gets 1500 condition damage. Sinister gets 1500 condition damage. The condition damage never change even though Dire gets more toughness.

What you’re doing is that you’re comparing condition damage total damage to a hybrid…that’s not the case here. Condi-build vs Condi-build, not condi-build vs hybrid.

Yes condition damage ignores tougness/armor but Condition damage does NOT get any better than it is against any armor type.

The Condition damage against light armor is the same as against heavy and is the same against medium. It still less damage in a given period of time than is power and Condition still needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard.

That is why Condition needs to last longer and why that tougness and vitality so important. You can take a lightly armored class down in one quick attack with Power. You can not do that with Condition. If you kill that person quickly then you are not worried about your own armor. That person is dead.

This is why a power thief will generally win against a condition thief. That unless the power thief decides he can do without cleanses.

There just as much “cheese” in power builds. People are just overly fascinated with big numbers so when they see a 15k backstab too prone to patting themselves on the back claiming it a function of skill when it a function of the build traits and armor chosen.Yes it might be a bit harder with keystrokes to get that backstab off but even a low skilled thief can do it. Ignoring Condition cleanses just to load up on stuff that makes a power build hit harder is the problem of the thief that goes that course and not of the one that uses conditions.

Alright, got your point slightly wrong and decided it’s be better I deleted the whole post of mine.

Anyway: Toughness is against power attacks, Vitality is against condi attacks. Dire has got it all and if condi players were a bit more skilled in general I would have a really tough time taking them down. So those who say Dire is “op” have got a point and in fact if it weren’t that rune would be in PvP – it fun actually that some things are still in wvw but not pvp anymore but the game is balanced around pvp – go figure.

The comparison between condi and power thief is rather random btw as it largely depends on the weaponsets both are using and also on the traitlines. I can tell you that I killed most condi thieves with daggerstorm back in the day – but i had no chance against a condi thief of equal skill.

Jana.6831:

Alright, got your point slightly wrong and decided it’s be better I deleted the whole post of mine.

Anyway: Toughness is against power attacks, Vitality is against condi attacks. Dire has got it all and if condi players were a bit more skilled in general I would have a really tough time taking them down. So those who say Dire is “op” have got a point and in fact if it weren’t that rune would be in PvP – it fun actually that some things are still in wvw but not pvp anymore but the game is balanced around pvp – go figure.

The comparison between condi and power thief is rather random btw as it largely depends on the weaponsets both are using and also on the traitlines. I can tell you that I killed most condi thieves with daggerstorm back in the day – but i had no chance against a condi thief of equal skill.

Pvp limits all manner of armor runes and sigils. It does not follow they do so because they OP. It one reason I do not like the mode as much as diversity in builds is too narrow for my liking.

I kill a lot of warriors on my power build thief and they have higher armor and vitality than would any thief in dire. While this comparing apples and oranges in many ways given said thief has evades/stealth to work in conjunction with that armor as opposed to a warriors invulns and blocks, the point remains the power thief can generate plenty of power in his attacks to take down a condition thief in short order even if thief in dire.

If it was not for that higher armor and vitality the condition thief would never survive such attacks and we would see fewer in game. If they can not outdamage and can not out survive , than why would they go that route at all? .

Given the power of the AA went up on melee weapons by a considerable margin in the last patch and given this did not help the condition thief to any appreciable extent it should be even easier to do damage to them and power favored more than it was before.

That condition thief did not get any boosts to his condition damage nor was there any boost in the ability of dire armor to resist such attacks in any way.

From my experience what I on many power build thieves I face when I use my condition build is that some might have adequate condition cleanses but one tendency many have is that they do not treat a condition damage attack as a regular attack. By this I mean they seem to think "ok it only condition..I do not have to dodge or evade or stealth for this attack launched on me..I can just swap blows as my hits will hit harder.

On the other hand were I on a power build and they read an attack coming their way they would dodge or blind or do some other thing to neutralize that attack. They have the same number of dodges/evades/stealths and blinds as they would facing a power build, they just do not use them as readily as they seem fixated on saving them for that big attack. Well there are no big attacks. There just a whole pile of little ones that add up over time so I am not sure what they save those dodges/evades/blinds for.

I will also admit there fustration when one dies to a condition build be it a thief or from any other class , but when I reflect on why I died to such with a given build I am using I recognize the frustration is more with myself. I find I will often tweak down my condition cleanses as the night goes on in favor of other utilities. This because I may not encounter that many condition builds, or I am with a group that can help with cleanses or be the focus of an enemy groups attacks.

I then might wander off and not remember to retweak my build for some more cleanses and inevitably it THEN I run into a condition build. It very rare I will die just because I used one utility like RFI over BP in my utilities. It not very likely I will die if I chose flanking strikes over , TOTC or SOH over Quickpockets. If I choose however to drop a condition cleanse in favor of something else , I can suffer for it due to the lack of cleanses.

It is what it is.

babazhook.6805:

snip

I had a really hard time to understand what you were trying to tell me.
So a power thief vs warrior is comparable to a power thief vs a dire condi thief?
And D/D (only “condi” build I’ve seen lately) is a condi set that didn’t get buffed because they don’t have a dagger mainhand? And why are we talking about buffed condis anyway?
And other people are stupid because they can’t tell and evade all of your attacks?

babazhook.6805:

It is what it is.

Yes, dire is pretty unfair in comparison to power builds – in general – but you have to take everything about condis into account to determine whether or not Dire really is “OP”.
What you did is taking your personal experiences as facts – and the facts are that Dire holds everything a condi build needs – only limitation would be the condi duration which can be “buffed” in wvw by food or which is negligible anyway as the condition is being cleared before it would run out anyway (except those that can’t be cleared).

I dont know if this has been said before but the reason people hate condi builds is because they are low risk, high reward. They can afford to to take defensive traits while sacrificing little damage, when power builds tale those they sacrifice a lot of their damage.

Also power builds have to sacrifice defensive stats for ferocity, (thiefs are also forced to run precision) while condi builds can use both toughness and vitality, condi duration is not necessary and even counterproductive when conditions are being cleansed.

All this means that condi players can afford to make many more mistakes than a power build all while doing similar damage.
TL:DR: Condi builds are much more forgiving than regular builds so bad players flock to them

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

snip

I had a really hard time to understand what you were trying to tell me.
So a power thief vs warrior is comparable to a power thief vs a dire condi thief?
And D/D (only “condi” build I’ve seen lately) is a condi set that didn’t get buffed because they don’t have a dagger mainhand? And why are we talking about buffed condis anyway?
And other people are stupid because they can’t tell and evade all of your attacks?

babazhook.6805:

It is what it is.

Yes, dire is pretty unfair in comparison to power builds – in general – but you have to take everything about condis into account to determine whether or not Dire really is “OP”.
What you did is taking your personal experiences as facts – and the facts are that Dire holds everything a condi build needs – only limitation would be the condi duration which can be “buffed” in wvw by food or which is negligible anyway as the condition is being cleared before it would run out anyway (except those that can’t be cleared).

I was very clear in what i as saying. A power thief generates more then enough damage in his attacks to take down a thief in dire. Each attack can doseveral thousand in damage even if that thief in dire.

I also stated clearly that said thief has even more pwoerful attacks since the patch which will do even more damage against a theif in dire.

What you are doing is looking at the fact that said thief has more armor and vitality then a power thief while ignoring the fact that on any given attack that power theif does far more damage.

This is why for every condition theif in game you see a dozen power theifs. Power thiefs tend to beat condition thiefs even prior to patch on the 26th.

Condition thieves can get an edge when fighting other classes. I find my condition theif does better against those scrappers as example and can lay some hurt on the DH due to a DH lacking cleanses.

Martyr.1920:

I dont know if this has been said before but the reason people hate condi builds is because they are low risk, high reward. They can afford to to take defensive traits while sacrificing little damage, when power builds tale those they sacrifice a lot of their damage.

Also power builds have to sacrifice defensive stats for ferocity, (thiefs are also forced to run precision) while condi builds can use both toughness and vitality, condi duration is not necessary and even counterproductive when conditions are being cleansed.

All this means that condi players can afford to make many more mistakes than a power build all while doing similar damage.
TL:DR: Condi builds are much more forgiving than regular builds so bad players flock to them

This is the just a “if I repeat it enough it must be true” type statement,

Condition builds exist across ALL professions and not just thieves and all of those professions could if they wished use dire armor. All of those professions using their condition builds can be countered. A good many of them will in fact take some other armor over dire simply because they want to squeeze more damage out as opposed to more protection. The thief has fewer of traits that triggers a condition on a critical so will tend to ignore precision. This not because “it easier” or the thief “less skilled”.

The fact they can make a mistake and still survive is due to the fact they can not make an attack that does 10k in damage like a power theif can. They have to take more hits because it takes longer to generate damage. Claiming they do “just as much damage” is simply false because it ignores time as a function of that equation.

“Bad thieves flock to condition builds” is anecdotal. I see more bad thieves in power builds by a long shot. In any given night I might see condition thief for every 10 power thieves. That does not translate into those 10 power thieves being more skilled.

I play 4 thieves. 3 are power one is condition. I do not become less skilled because I use my Condition build. I do not become more skilled because I play my power build. I have to play differently.

The other night I got wrecked a few times in a row by one particular condition thief. (pd using venomshare and thieves guild and that Guild always ready just as I was close to prevailing)He was very skilled. I have no problems admitting he more skilled than I was.

Are there “bad condition thieves”? Certainly and you can kill them.

babazhook.6805:

I was very clear in what i as saying.

You weren’t – but alas.

babazhook.6805:

A power thief generates more then enough damage in his attacks to take down a thief in dire. Each attack can doseveral thousand in damage even if that thief in dire.

So? Did you ever fight a P/D equal skill before June?

babazhook.6805:

I also stated clearly that said thief has even more pwoerful attacks since the patch which will do even more damage against a theif in dire.

And what do the condi thieves of today use for weapons? right D/D – so they got a buff as well – not for condi but for dagger.

babazhook.6805:

What you are doing is looking at the fact that said thief has more armor and vitality then a power thief while ignoring the fact that on any given attack that power theif does far more damage.

No, I said: One has to look at all things regarding condis to determine whether or not dire is “OP” – since they are able to take both protecting stats (vitality and toughness) they have an advantage over powerbuilds who can’t. A soldier’s thief “doesn’t do enough damage” to take a dire down.

babazhook.6805:

This is why for every condition theif in game you see a dozen power theifs.
Power thiefs tend to beat condition thiefs even prior to patch on the 26th.

No, that was the silent agreement to run power because condi is cheese. I have been a condi thief back in the day and got a lot of hate. That didn’t convince me to go power though, condi was just really boring.
Nowadays P/D doesn’t work like it used to so you see literally no one running it.

babazhook.6805:

Condition thieves can get an edge when fighting other classes. I find my condition theif does better against those scrappers as example and can lay some hurt on the DH due to a DH lacking cleanses.

I wonder why… … .. .

Resume: I have no idea about the total damage a condi build does compared to a power build (and like I said it depends on what conditions your set has and on what condi clears the opponent has) – all I do know is that I lost 10 out of 150 1 vs 1 in my one week as a condi thief – all to condi builds.
And all of the other stuff I already said I would only repeat myself (again) at this point.

Your editing is a bit wonky. Nonetheless: The success of condi builds relies mostly on what condi clears the opponent has – I’m not repeating this again as this is already the third time I said it.
A condi dire thief has got an advantage over other builds as they can take both defensive stats.
If you take “everybody was running power” as a proof that power > condi dire, then I can explain to you why most people ran power, because a) condi is cheese, b) condi is boring in most cases because it requires rather little skill. That isn’t elitist crap, that is what most power thieves thought (those who you claim ran power because they could kill condi easily (they could but only by outplaying)).

There are bad condi and bad power build thieves. All the weapon sets play differently. There are “low skill” abilities like shadow shot. You don’t see me complaining about that though because I’ve noticed that I can dodge when I see the blind effect before the teleport.

Low skill play (like spam or over reliance on one skill) can be countered with a little thinking.

Either people claim P/D is too weak or that it is too strong. This says to me, people who know how to play it can kill people. People who don’t know how to play it can be killed.

Anecdotally. I put out an initial “burst” of damage assuming all my conditions land. Over time this burst goes down a lot. I need to actively continue attacking, revealing myself and exposing myself to attack, to maintain decent damage — which won’t burst again for another 30-40 seconds.

At this point I think given that 95% of new thiefs play D/P it is high time to put to rest the idea that “bad players” go condi. Bad players? None of the 95% are bad? Really? The odds are so unlikely especially given the hate that still irrationally goes against a legitimate build/playstyle. There are bad players who play D/P, should we insult that build because of it?

I deleted the post because there no sense in stating the same things over and over again.

I will repeat myself a final time. The fact that a Condition thief has higher vitality and toughness as a requirement because they have to be able to outlast an opponent in order for thier DOT conditions to take effect. Added to that a person who has conditions inflicted upon them has two counters once that damage on them. They can cleanse or they can heal.

(I am speaking of pure condition thief here over the hybrid of which there are a few. A Hybrid can use stuff like sinister because they can rely on decent damage coming off their AA and things like heartseeker or CND to supplement condition damage.)

The reason a power thief does not have to rely so heavily on Vitality and toughness is because they hit much harder for immediate damage and the enemy only has the heal to deal with that damage once it hits. A single hit can take down half a players health and more, There nothing like that in a condition build.

I fail to see how having vitality and toughness in a build is an advantage when you yourselkittennowledged that putting a thief in soldiers would not give him advantage over a power thief simply because he would suffer a damage output loss.

Damage from a condition build is already lower than power whether in dire or not. by going condition you are already choosing to go with less outright damage hoping instead to build it up over a period of time.

Yes this can feel boring as many people would rather end a given battle quickly than spend several minutes in the same trying to gain advantage.

When people claim “silent agreements were made” as thief to supporting their position as to why a given build OP I feel further debate on such matters pointless. We will just have to agree to disgree on this topic and I will continue to see 10 and more power builds for every condition build on a thief in WvW not because of “silent agreements” but because people play what they find the most effective. (or less boring but if people play power just because it not as boring than it another issue entirely and not related to the number of condition cleanses people trait for and whether Dire is OP)

Have a nice day.

Geez how can the word acknowledged warrant a kitten yet work here? Nuts.

babazhook.6805:

Yes condition damage ignores tougness/armor but Condition damage does NOT get any better than it is against any armor type.

The Condition damage against light armor is the same as against heavy and is the same against medium. It still less damage in a given period of time than is power and Condition still needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard.

You’re making it sound like it’s a bad thing. The fact is, unlike power-build, condi-build’s damage stays the same against heavy while power-build’s damage diminishes. On top of that, power-build has to actively attacking while condi-build can simply kite or stealth. Actively attacking, as I’ve already mentioned, makes power-build open for counter play while condi-build don’t have to worry about counter play.

The best counter play against power-build is weakness and cripple, and condi-build has a lot of those type of condition to keep a power-build at bay. The fact is, even with a cleanse, one can only cleanse so much and in term of a condi-Thief, conditions are really easy to reapply.

That is why Condition needs to last longer and why that tougness and vitality so important.

There are two types of conditions; 1) conditions that deals damage and 2) conditions that hinders. You don’t need duration for conditions that deals damage since it is way better to focus on potency to increase the DPS. Conditions like cripple and chill would need duration, but this is not that important. Potency generates pressure not duration. Investing in duration over potency will result to a lackluster condition damage output. This is why you think that it “needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard” because you think that it needs duration instead of potency. A high potency condition doesn’t need time to build up.

To give you an idea, with 1500 condition damage Carrion + Undead, 2x DB with Spider Venom + Steal will tick for 2k per second for 8-10sec applied within 2sec time frame. Uncleansed, that’s enough to kill any profession that is not a bunker Necro. And ever since the buff on vulnerability, condi-build just gotten even cheesier.

You can take a lightly armored class down in one quick attack with Power. You can not do that with Condition. If you kill that person quickly then you are not worried about your own armor. That person is dead.

This is why a power thief will generally win against a condition thief. That unless the power thief decides he can do without cleanses.

Even with cleanse, you cannot possible cleanse all conditions applied to you. Two things that breaks power-build, weakness and cripple. How do you intend to kill your target if you’re often weakened and crippled?

Yes you can do that on a light armor target, but once the target bunker up, power-builds are starting to have a hard time. Condi-build doesn’t really matter what the target is wearing since it will deal the same amount of damage. The only real mitigation against condition damage is Regen — good luck getting that on your own as a power-Thief.

There just as much “cheese” in power builds.

I disagree. Power-build sacrifices survivability and they are often exposed to counter play in order to deal damage. It’s perfectly balance. Condi-build neither sacrifice survivability nor it has to be exposed to counter play to deal damage — that’s cheesy.

People are just overly fascinated with big numbers so when they see a 15k backstab too prone to patting themselves on the back claiming it a function of skill when it a function of the build traits and armor chosen.Yes it might be a bit harder with keystrokes to get that backstab off but even a low skilled thief can do it.

Sure if they don’t shatter like glass before that happens.

Ignoring Condition cleanses just to load up on stuff that makes a power build hit harder is the problem of the thief that goes that course and not of the one that uses conditions.

I don’t know why the point that “condi-build is tanky that’s why it’s cheesy” keep on getting lost in the discussion. It doesn’t really matter if the target can cleanse every condition I apply, as long they can’t deal damage because they are too busy cleansing it will win it out in favor of condi-build, thus the problem lies on the condi-build.

The goal of a power-build who sacrifice survivability is to be capable of taking down any target before they die in the process. If the power-build can’t do that because the target is too tanky, then there is no value in the sacrifices. For a condi-build can deal that much damage, they should not be allowed to be too tanky.

Just look at the amulets available for power-build in order for them to deal a lot of damage. They can take Berserker which sacrifices both vitality and toughness. Now look at the condition amulets, they either have vitality or toughness. Undead + Rabid will give you 3k armor and 16k condition damage — that’s just ridiculous.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Yes condition damage ignores tougness/armor but Condition damage does NOT get any better than it is against any armor type.

The Condition damage against light armor is the same as against heavy and is the same against medium. It still less damage in a given period of time than is power and Condition still needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard.

You’re making it sound like it’s a bad thing. The fact is, unlike power-build, condi-build’s damage stays the same against heavy while power-build’s damage diminishes. On top of that, power-build has to actively attacking while condi-build can simply kite or stealth. Actively attacking, as I’ve already mentioned, makes power-build open for counter play while condi-build don’t have to worry about counter play.

The best counter play against power-build is weakness and cripple, and condi-build has a lot of those type of condition to keep a power-build at bay. The fact is, even with a cleanse, one can only cleanse so much and in term of a condi-Thief, conditions are really easy to reapply.

That is why Condition needs to last longer and why that tougness and vitality so important.

There are two types of conditions; 1) conditions that deals damage and 2) conditions that hinders. You don’t need duration for conditions that deals damage since it is way better to focus on potency to increase the DPS. Conditions like cripple and chill would need duration, but this is not that important. Potency generates pressure not duration. Investing in duration over potency will result to a lackluster condition damage output. This is why you think that it “needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard” because you think that it needs duration instead of potency. A high potency condition doesn’t need time to build up.

To give you an idea, with 1500 condition damage Carrion + Undead, 2x DB with Spider Venom + Steal will tick for 2k per second for 8-10sec applied within 2sec time frame. Uncleansed, that’s enough to kill any profession that is not a bunker Necro. And ever since the buff on vulnerability, condi-build just gotten even cheesier.

You can take a lightly armored class down in one quick attack with Power. You can not do that with Condition. If you kill that person quickly then you are not worried about your own armor. That person is dead.

This is why a power thief will generally win against a condition thief. That unless the power thief decides he can do without cleanses.

Even with cleanse, you cannot possible cleanse all conditions applied to you. Two things that breaks power-build, weakness and cripple. How do you intend to kill your target if you’re often weakened and crippled?

Yes you can do that on a light armor target, but once the target bunker up, power-builds are starting to have a hard time. Condi-build doesn’t really matter what the target is wearing since it will deal the same amount of damage. The only real mitigation against condition damage is Regen — good luck getting that on your own as a power-Thief.

There just as much “cheese” in power builds.

I disagree. Power-build sacrifices survivability and they are often exposed to counter play in order to deal damage. It’s perfectly balance. Condi-build neither sacrifice survivability nor it has to be exposed to counter play to deal damage — that’s cheesy.

People are just overly fascinated with big numbers so when they see a 15k backstab too prone to patting themselves on the back claiming it a function of skill when it a function of the build traits and armor chosen.Yes it might be a bit harder with keystrokes to get that backstab off but even a low skilled thief can do it.

Sure if they don’t shatter like glass before that happens.

Ignoring Condition cleanses just to load up on stuff that makes a power build hit harder is the problem of the thief that goes that course and not of the one that uses conditions.

I don’t know why the point that “condi-build is tanky that’s why it’s cheesy” keep on getting lost in the discussion. It doesn’t really matter if the target can cleanse every condition I apply, as long they can’t deal damage because they are too busy cleansing it will win it out in favor of condi-build, thus the problem lies on the condi-build.

The goal of a power-build who sacrifice survivability is to be capable of taking down any target before they die in the process. If the power-build can’t do that because the target is too tanky, then there is no value in the sacrifices. For a condi-build can deal that much damage, they should not be allowed to be too tanky.

Just look at the amulets available for power-build in order for them to deal a lot of damage. They can take Berserker which sacrifices both vitality and toughness. Now look at the condition amulets, they either have vitality or toughness. Undead + Rabid will give you 3k armor and 16k condition damage — that’s just ridiculous.

If we are talking WvW i have two builds which all but keep conditions off me while outputing excellent damage. This includes your weakness and crippled. These are cleansed as i attack. Cleansing a condition does not preclude an attack.

One , paradoxically is a condition build. the other is a power build. Acro is key here including some of the very traits you dismissed as useless in a previous post.

As example with GI shamans build condition d/d using acro I have high regen uptime (near 290 per tick). I have easy access to heals to keep my health above 75 percent. This keeps weakness/vulnerability/confusion/slow off me almost entirely. PR kicks in every 20 seconds for torment/burning/poison/bleeding. I have escapists which removes on evade the evades of which inflict damage even as they cleanse those conditions. DIRE is not used. . Most is shamans or apothecary. This i find much more survivable then dire

A condition thief is just as prone to conditions as is a power thief and as has already been acknowledged toughness from his dire does nothing to defend him against conditions.

S/d I use escapists with the Acro line . I keep PR but drop GI as this build has no ready heal sources ( If i took IP and assissins reward I would trait GI) Escapists works wonderfully as does infiltrators for cleanses. Since it predicated on a lot of weapon swaps a cleasning sigil used. It has a whole lot of condition cleanses.

Cripple? No real effect with UC in play which also kills chills and Immobs. I used to use don’t stop as well but found it overkill so went upper hand. More regen and I get more INI that INI keeps lead attacks damage nearer 15 percent and coupled with quikpockets allows a whole lot of in a row infiltrators for rapid cleanses.

I am actually surprised people don’t run any condi cleanse in pvp given amount of the necros and engis there. I personally run SE, sigil of generosity, withdraw, shadowstep. I ran in quite few d/d DD condi thieves spamming death blossom during the season – i wouldn’t say they were deadly but definitely obnoxious to fight due to evades.

Cynz.9437:

I am actually surprised people don’t run any condi cleanse in pvp given amount of the necros and engis there. I personally run SE, sigil of generosity, withdraw, shadowstep. I ran in quite few d/d DD condi thieves spamming death blossom during the season – i wouldn’t say they were deadly but definitely obnoxious to fight due to evades.

Obnoxious is certainly the word. But hardly OP.

Permastealth guys can be obnoxious too and I see way way more of them in wvw then d/d db thieves. These the ones that now use bound through black poweder for all that stealth while using d/p. They are far more dangerous and harder to kill then is a d/d DB thief even if the latter in dire.

babazhook.6805:

Cynz.9437:

I am actually surprised people don’t run any condi cleanse in pvp given amount of the necros and engis there. I personally run SE, sigil of generosity, withdraw, shadowstep. I ran in quite few d/d DD condi thieves spamming death blossom during the season – i wouldn’t say they were deadly but definitely obnoxious to fight due to evades.

Obnoxious is certainly the word. But hardly OP.

Permastealth guys can be obnoxious too and I see way way more of them in wvw then d/d db thieves. These the ones that now use bound through black poweder for all that stealth while using d/p. They are far more dangerous and harder to kill then is a d/d DB thief even if the latter in dire.

Well permastealth isn’t issue in pvp since stealth is huge disadvantage in conquest.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Yes condition damage ignores tougness/armor but Condition damage does NOT get any better than it is against any armor type.

The Condition damage against light armor is the same as against heavy and is the same against medium. It still less damage in a given period of time than is power and Condition still needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard.

You’re making it sound like it’s a bad thing. The fact is, unlike power-build, condi-build’s damage stays the same against heavy while power-build’s damage diminishes. On top of that, power-build has to actively attacking while condi-build can simply kite or stealth. Actively attacking, as I’ve already mentioned, makes power-build open for counter play while condi-build don’t have to worry about counter play.

The best counter play against power-build is weakness and cripple, and condi-build has a lot of those type of condition to keep a power-build at bay. The fact is, even with a cleanse, one can only cleanse so much and in term of a condi-Thief, conditions are really easy to reapply.

That is why Condition needs to last longer and why that tougness and vitality so important.

There are two types of conditions; 1) conditions that deals damage and 2) conditions that hinders. You don’t need duration for conditions that deals damage since it is way better to focus on potency to increase the DPS. Conditions like cripple and chill would need duration, but this is not that important. Potency generates pressure not duration. Investing in duration over potency will result to a lackluster condition damage output. This is why you think that it “needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard” because you think that it needs duration instead of potency. A high potency condition doesn’t need time to build up.

To give you an idea, with 1500 condition damage Carrion + Undead, 2x DB with Spider Venom + Steal will tick for 2k per second for 8-10sec applied within 2sec time frame. Uncleansed, that’s enough to kill any profession that is not a bunker Necro. And ever since the buff on vulnerability, condi-build just gotten even cheesier.

You can take a lightly armored class down in one quick attack with Power. You can not do that with Condition. If you kill that person quickly then you are not worried about your own armor. That person is dead.

This is why a power thief will generally win against a condition thief. That unless the power thief decides he can do without cleanses.

Even with cleanse, you cannot possible cleanse all conditions applied to you. Two things that breaks power-build, weakness and cripple. How do you intend to kill your target if you’re often weakened and crippled?

Yes you can do that on a light armor target, but once the target bunker up, power-builds are starting to have a hard time. Condi-build doesn’t really matter what the target is wearing since it will deal the same amount of damage. The only real mitigation against condition damage is Regen — good luck getting that on your own as a power-Thief.

There just as much “cheese” in power builds.

I disagree. Power-build sacrifices survivability and they are often exposed to counter play in order to deal damage. It’s perfectly balance. Condi-build neither sacrifice survivability nor it has to be exposed to counter play to deal damage — that’s cheesy.

People are just overly fascinated with big numbers so when they see a 15k backstab too prone to patting themselves on the back claiming it a function of skill when it a function of the build traits and armor chosen.Yes it might be a bit harder with keystrokes to get that backstab off but even a low skilled thief can do it.

Sure if they don’t shatter like glass before that happens.

Ignoring Condition cleanses just to load up on stuff that makes a power build hit harder is the problem of the thief that goes that course and not of the one that uses conditions.

I don’t know why the point that “condi-build is tanky that’s why it’s cheesy” keep on getting lost in the discussion. It doesn’t really matter if the target can cleanse every condition I apply, as long they can’t deal damage because they are too busy cleansing it will win it out in favor of condi-build, thus the problem lies on the condi-build.

The goal of a power-build who sacrifice survivability is to be capable of taking down any target before they die in the process. If the power-build can’t do that because the target is too tanky, then there is no value in the sacrifices. For a condi-build can deal that much damage, they should not be allowed to be too tanky.

Just look at the amulets available for power-build in order for them to deal a lot of damage. They can take Berserker which sacrifices both vitality and toughness. Now look at the condition amulets, they either have vitality or toughness. Undead + Rabid will give you 3k armor and 16k condition damage — that’s just ridiculous.

If we are talking WvW i have two builds which all but keep conditions off me while outputing excellent damage. This includes your weakness and crippled. These are cleansed as i attack. Cleansing a condition does not preclude an attack.

One , paradoxically is a condition build. the other is a power build. Acro is key here including some of the very traits you dismissed as useless in a previous post.

As example with GI shamans build condition d/d using acro I have high regen uptime (near 290 per tick). I have easy access to heals to keep my health above 75 percent. This keeps weakness/vulnerability/confusion/slow off me almost entirely. PR kicks in every 20 seconds for torment/burning/poison/bleeding. I have escapists which removes on evade the evades of which inflict damage even as they cleanse those conditions. DIRE is not used. . Most is shamans or apothecary. This i find much more survivable then dire

A condition thief is just as prone to conditions as is a power thief and as has already been acknowledged toughness from his dire does nothing to defend him against conditions.

S/d I use escapists with the Acro line . I keep PR but drop GI as this build has no ready heal sources ( If i took IP and assissins reward I would trait GI) Escapists works wonderfully as does infiltrators for cleanses. Since it predicated on a lot of weapon swaps a cleasning sigil used. It has a whole lot of condition cleanses.

Cripple? No real effect with UC in play which also kills chills and Immobs. I used to use don’t stop as well but found it overkill so went upper hand. More regen and I get more INI that INI keeps lead attacks damage nearer 15 percent and coupled with quikpockets allows a whole lot of in a row infiltrators for rapid cleanses.

UC and Lotus cancels each other for the most part. I do acknowledge that condi-build is weak against condi-build…but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

babazhook.6805:

When people claim “silent agreements were made” as thief to supporting their position as to why a given build OP I feel further debate on such matters pointless. We will just have to agree to disgree on this topic and I will continue to see 10 and more power builds for every condition build on a thief in WvW not because of “silent agreements” but because people play what they find the most effective. (or less boring but if people play power just because it not as boring than it another issue entirely and not related to the number of condition cleanses people trait for and whether Dire is OP)

Have a nice day.

Lets see if I can get this into your head:
You claimed people were running power because power > dire condi builds.
I said they were running power because condi requires no skill.
So your claim is as “ridiculous” as mine.
You can actually go back around 1,5 years in this forum and find multiple threads in which people say that condi thief is too boring and they went back power although condi is more powerful. The same as I did. Winning chance back then with P/D ~95%, with power D/D ~65% – I took the 65%.

And I never really argued that a condi build “needs more vitality and toughness” but it’s sad when the damage more or less solemly relies on what means to condi cleanse the opponent has and that’s where anet messed up, and that’s where the stats of dire can become a problem. That is my point.

ETA: I’m not saying people without condi cleanse should beat everything but the means to get rid of them is often insufficient.

ETA²: Come to think of it; if the duration (“but we need more vitality and toughness because the DURATION”) is of any importance then why is Dire the “to go” set?

Condi thieves can easily gain high toughness/vitality which has better sustain/survivability than power thieves which means its more generous upon mistakes, but power build which could lead u to instant death with a single mistake.

Which also means power build requires more skills and attention to play effective. while condi thieves (p/d and d/d) generally just spam death blossom or shadow strike make few mistake trolling around and u can still survive. But spamming heartseeker or shadow shot or trolling around on power build is best way to die quick.

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

When people claim “silent agreements were made” as thief to supporting their position as to why a given build OP I feel further debate on such matters pointless. We will just have to agree to disgree on this topic and I will continue to see 10 and more power builds for every condition build on a thief in WvW not because of “silent agreements” but because people play what they find the most effective. (or less boring but if people play power just because it not as boring than it another issue entirely and not related to the number of condition cleanses people trait for and whether Dire is OP)

Have a nice day.

Lets see if I can get this into your head:
You claimed people were running power because power > dire condi builds.
I said they were running power because condi requires no skill.
So your claim is as “ridiculous” as mine.
You can actually go back around 1,5 years in this forum and find multiple threads in which people say that condi thief is too boring and they went back power although condi is more powerful. The same as I did. Winning chance back then with P/D ~95%, with power D/D ~65% – I took the 65%.

And I never really argued that a condi build “needs more vitality and toughness” but it’s sad when the damage more or less solemly relies on what means to condi cleanse the opponent has and that’s where anet messed up, and that’s where the stats of dire can become a problem. That is my point.

ETA: I’m not saying people without condi cleanse should beat everything but the means to get rid of them is often insufficient.

ETA²: Come to think of it; if the duration (“but we need more vitality and toughness because the DURATION”) is of any importance then why is Dire the “to go” set?

Dire is not the go to set. Many condition thieves use Sinister. I use shamans and apothecary. More are using Vipers since introduction. Among other classes there far more viper/sinister/carrion/trailblazer and the like being used. Were I p/d I would likely go Viper as condition duration needed in that build given bleed base is 4 seconds. (this would cap bleed stacks at 4 if using just the AA..no 4 stacks of bleed is going to kill anyone. You still think durations not needed?)

There is plenty of condition cleanses available to a thief. People just choose not to take them then QQ when they die.

My own Condition thief rarely dies to conditions. He dies to power. My S/d thief actually has more vitality and toughness then my condition thief. That thief rarely dies to conditions, It power that kills.

Both of these thieves by design were made to inflict damage , have higher toughness and vitality than is the norm and ample condition cleanses. When either sees a condition build they have far less to fear then when they see a power build and especially if that power build a d/p thief.

I have two other thieves that have less in the way of cleanses. This was a conscious decision on my part. Both die more to conditions then do those that have those cleanses. Both also die to power. I do not QQ about them dieing to conditions because that weakness was one I made myself.

MidoriMarch.8067:

Condi thieves can easily gain high toughness/vitality which has better sustain/survivability than power thieves which means its more generous upon mistakes, but power build which could lead u to instant death with a single mistake.

Which also means power build requires more skills and attention to play effective. while condi thieves (p/d and d/d) generally just spam death blossom or shadow strike make few mistake trolling around and u can still survive. But spamming heartseeker or shadow shot or trolling around on power build is best way to die quick.

Spamming DB gets you killed quick to any player who knows what he is doing. All they have to do is move out of the limited range of a DB as the animation starts and hit when that person lands , that landing spot very predictable. Scrappers just as example will drop their lightning field on your landing spot as you in the air and on landing you will take damage and be stunned. Spam over.

No thief I know using p/d spams shadowstrike. You can get one off and are ported away making it pretty hard to spam. Shadowshot can be spammed as it ports you to the enemy with blind. You can than repeat several times in a row in quick succession.

Power builds will also spam their AA far more then a condition build. I fail to see why this considered skill and as soon as a condition build spams it “not skill”. I press the 1 button on my power build three times and have all my INI left and have done well over 10k in damage. I press the 3 button on my DB condition build three times and have burned off 12 ini and loaded 9 stacks of bleeds.Those 9 stacks of bleed have to tick a long time to get to that 10k in damage. INI free power spam wins by a wide margin.

As to heartseeker. One heartseeker at 3 ini will do more damage then will 3 dbs spammed off d/d. The goal is to inflict damage. Just because a power build inflicts more damge in a single attack than a condition build does in three it does not follow that it means more skill required.

Weird – I spammed shadowstrike – it’s not that hard to run towards your opponent again.

Jana.6831:

Weird – I spammed shadowstrike – it’s not that hard to run towards your opponent again.

No decent p/d thief will use shadowstrike then run towards a foe to use it again. That just inane. You can never get enough condition damage on that way and open yourself to all manner of attacks. its 2 stacks of torment for 5 seconds. Just what is the thief that does this trying to accomplish?

Torment is not the main condition off a p/d build. You shadowstrike away and then load some bleeds with your AA. Running back and forth to load torment on and I doubt you ever get more then 4 stacks of it. You will be dead before you get on 6.

Further to that if an enemy closes to you rather then use torment to step away you are often better off using CND to get some vuln stacks on then dodge and sneak attack for the bleeds. You get 5 stacks of bleed over two torment. Shadowstrike is used when revealed and you up close. CND for stealth is a far better use of ini then running back and forth to load torments. Contrary to claims being made about a thief in dire, if you stand up close to en enemy for too long you are going to be dead pretty quick.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Yes condition damage ignores tougness/armor but Condition damage does NOT get any better than it is against any armor type.

The Condition damage against light armor is the same as against heavy and is the same against medium. It still less damage in a given period of time than is power and Condition still needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard.

You’re making it sound like it’s a bad thing. The fact is, unlike power-build, condi-build’s damage stays the same against heavy while power-build’s damage diminishes. On top of that, power-build has to actively attacking while condi-build can simply kite or stealth. Actively attacking, as I’ve already mentioned, makes power-build open for counter play while condi-build don’t have to worry about counter play.

The best counter play against power-build is weakness and cripple, and condi-build has a lot of those type of condition to keep a power-build at bay. The fact is, even with a cleanse, one can only cleanse so much and in term of a condi-Thief, conditions are really easy to reapply.

That is why Condition needs to last longer and why that tougness and vitality so important.

There are two types of conditions; 1) conditions that deals damage and 2) conditions that hinders. You don’t need duration for conditions that deals damage since it is way better to focus on potency to increase the DPS. Conditions like cripple and chill would need duration, but this is not that important. Potency generates pressure not duration. Investing in duration over potency will result to a lackluster condition damage output. This is why you think that it “needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard” because you think that it needs duration instead of potency. A high potency condition doesn’t need time to build up.

To give you an idea, with 1500 condition damage Carrion + Undead, 2x DB with Spider Venom + Steal will tick for 2k per second for 8-10sec applied within 2sec time frame. Uncleansed, that’s enough to kill any profession that is not a bunker Necro. And ever since the buff on vulnerability, condi-build just gotten even cheesier.

You can take a lightly armored class down in one quick attack with Power. You can not do that with Condition. If you kill that person quickly then you are not worried about your own armor. That person is dead.

This is why a power thief will generally win against a condition thief. That unless the power thief decides he can do without cleanses.

Even with cleanse, you cannot possible cleanse all conditions applied to you. Two things that breaks power-build, weakness and cripple. How do you intend to kill your target if you’re often weakened and crippled?

Yes you can do that on a light armor target, but once the target bunker up, power-builds are starting to have a hard time. Condi-build doesn’t really matter what the target is wearing since it will deal the same amount of damage. The only real mitigation against condition damage is Regen — good luck getting that on your own as a power-Thief.

There just as much “cheese” in power builds.

I disagree. Power-build sacrifices survivability and they are often exposed to counter play in order to deal damage. It’s perfectly balance. Condi-build neither sacrifice survivability nor it has to be exposed to counter play to deal damage — that’s cheesy.

People are just overly fascinated with big numbers so when they see a 15k backstab too prone to patting themselves on the back claiming it a function of skill when it a function of the build traits and armor chosen.Yes it might be a bit harder with keystrokes to get that backstab off but even a low skilled thief can do it.

Sure if they don’t shatter like glass before that happens.

Ignoring Condition cleanses just to load up on stuff that makes a power build hit harder is the problem of the thief that goes that course and not of the one that uses conditions.

I don’t know why the point that “condi-build is tanky that’s why it’s cheesy” keep on getting lost in the discussion. It doesn’t really matter if the target can cleanse every condition I apply, as long they can’t deal damage because they are too busy cleansing it will win it out in favor of condi-build, thus the problem lies on the condi-build.

The goal of a power-build who sacrifice survivability is to be capable of taking down any target before they die in the process. If the power-build can’t do that because the target is too tanky, then there is no value in the sacrifices. For a condi-build can deal that much damage, they should not be allowed to be too tanky.

Just look at the amulets available for power-build in order for them to deal a lot of damage. They can take Berserker which sacrifices both vitality and toughness. Now look at the condition amulets, they either have vitality or toughness. Undead + Rabid will give you 3k armor and 16k condition damage — that’s just ridiculous.

If we are talking WvW i have two builds which all but keep conditions off me while outputing excellent damage. This includes your weakness and crippled. These are cleansed as i attack. Cleansing a condition does not preclude an attack.

One , paradoxically is a condition build. the other is a power build. Acro is key here including some of the very traits you dismissed as useless in a previous post.

As example with GI shamans build condition d/d using acro I have high regen uptime (near 290 per tick). I have easy access to heals to keep my health above 75 percent. This keeps weakness/vulnerability/confusion/slow off me almost entirely. PR kicks in every 20 seconds for torment/burning/poison/bleeding. I have escapists which removes on evade the evades of which inflict damage even as they cleanse those conditions. DIRE is not used. . Most is shamans or apothecary. This i find much more survivable then dire

A condition thief is just as prone to conditions as is a power thief and as has already been acknowledged toughness from his dire does nothing to defend him against conditions.

S/d I use escapists with the Acro line . I keep PR but drop GI as this build has no ready heal sources ( If i took IP and assissins reward I would trait GI) Escapists works wonderfully as does infiltrators for cleanses. Since it predicated on a lot of weapon swaps a cleasning sigil used. It has a whole lot of condition cleanses.

Cripple? No real effect with UC in play which also kills chills and Immobs. I used to use don’t stop as well but found it overkill so went upper hand. More regen and I get more INI that INI keeps lead attacks damage nearer 15 percent and coupled with quikpockets allows a whole lot of in a row infiltrators for rapid cleanses.

UC and Lotus cancels each other for the most part. I do acknowledge that condi-build is weak against condi-build…but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

Than what ARE we talking about. I can assure you a power build thief is NOT weak against a condition build thief unless they refuse to trait for condition cleanses.

Both my d/d condition thief and s/d power thief are specced to have ample condition clear. When/if they die it generally to a power spec. That S/d thief has higher armor/vitality then does ny Condition thief yet power specs are more dangerous to it.

Another commented that the boost to the AA of a mlee thief that recently occured helped the Condition build as well. This is nonsense. WITH that boost it rare I get more than 400 damage off wild strike in the AA chain. My power build can get 4k strikes. The entire chain of the AA off dagger/x sword/x power will do close to or over 10k in damage Ini free. This will overwhelm thieves even in dire. Using the best source of conditions on a condi thief for the cost of 12 ini and 3 DBS a condi build can load 9 bleed stacks with three consecutive attacks. That will come no where close to the damge off the AA spam (INI free) in power no matter the armor.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Yes condition damage ignores tougness/armor but Condition damage does NOT get any better than it is against any armor type.

The Condition damage against light armor is the same as against heavy and is the same against medium. It still less damage in a given period of time than is power and Condition still needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard.

You’re making it sound like it’s a bad thing. The fact is, unlike power-build, condi-build’s damage stays the same against heavy while power-build’s damage diminishes. On top of that, power-build has to actively attacking while condi-build can simply kite or stealth. Actively attacking, as I’ve already mentioned, makes power-build open for counter play while condi-build don’t have to worry about counter play.

The best counter play against power-build is weakness and cripple, and condi-build has a lot of those type of condition to keep a power-build at bay. The fact is, even with a cleanse, one can only cleanse so much and in term of a condi-Thief, conditions are really easy to reapply.

That is why Condition needs to last longer and why that tougness and vitality so important.

There are two types of conditions; 1) conditions that deals damage and 2) conditions that hinders. You don’t need duration for conditions that deals damage since it is way better to focus on potency to increase the DPS. Conditions like cripple and chill would need duration, but this is not that important. Potency generates pressure not duration. Investing in duration over potency will result to a lackluster condition damage output. This is why you think that it “needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard” because you think that it needs duration instead of potency. A high potency condition doesn’t need time to build up.

To give you an idea, with 1500 condition damage Carrion + Undead, 2x DB with Spider Venom + Steal will tick for 2k per second for 8-10sec applied within 2sec time frame. Uncleansed, that’s enough to kill any profession that is not a bunker Necro. And ever since the buff on vulnerability, condi-build just gotten even cheesier.

You can take a lightly armored class down in one quick attack with Power. You can not do that with Condition. If you kill that person quickly then you are not worried about your own armor. That person is dead.

This is why a power thief will generally win against a condition thief. That unless the power thief decides he can do without cleanses.

Even with cleanse, you cannot possible cleanse all conditions applied to you. Two things that breaks power-build, weakness and cripple. How do you intend to kill your target if you’re often weakened and crippled?

Yes you can do that on a light armor target, but once the target bunker up, power-builds are starting to have a hard time. Condi-build doesn’t really matter what the target is wearing since it will deal the same amount of damage. The only real mitigation against condition damage is Regen — good luck getting that on your own as a power-Thief.

There just as much “cheese” in power builds.

I disagree. Power-build sacrifices survivability and they are often exposed to counter play in order to deal damage. It’s perfectly balance. Condi-build neither sacrifice survivability nor it has to be exposed to counter play to deal damage — that’s cheesy.

People are just overly fascinated with big numbers so when they see a 15k backstab too prone to patting themselves on the back claiming it a function of skill when it a function of the build traits and armor chosen.Yes it might be a bit harder with keystrokes to get that backstab off but even a low skilled thief can do it.

Sure if they don’t shatter like glass before that happens.

Ignoring Condition cleanses just to load up on stuff that makes a power build hit harder is the problem of the thief that goes that course and not of the one that uses conditions.

I don’t know why the point that “condi-build is tanky that’s why it’s cheesy” keep on getting lost in the discussion. It doesn’t really matter if the target can cleanse every condition I apply, as long they can’t deal damage because they are too busy cleansing it will win it out in favor of condi-build, thus the problem lies on the condi-build.

The goal of a power-build who sacrifice survivability is to be capable of taking down any target before they die in the process. If the power-build can’t do that because the target is too tanky, then there is no value in the sacrifices. For a condi-build can deal that much damage, they should not be allowed to be too tanky.

Just look at the amulets available for power-build in order for them to deal a lot of damage. They can take Berserker which sacrifices both vitality and toughness. Now look at the condition amulets, they either have vitality or toughness. Undead + Rabid will give you 3k armor and 16k condition damage — that’s just ridiculous.

If we are talking WvW i have two builds which all but keep conditions off me while outputing excellent damage. This includes your weakness and crippled. These are cleansed as i attack. Cleansing a condition does not preclude an attack.

One , paradoxically is a condition build. the other is a power build. Acro is key here including some of the very traits you dismissed as useless in a previous post.

As example with GI shamans build condition d/d using acro I have high regen uptime (near 290 per tick). I have easy access to heals to keep my health above 75 percent. This keeps weakness/vulnerability/confusion/slow off me almost entirely. PR kicks in every 20 seconds for torment/burning/poison/bleeding. I have escapists which removes on evade the evades of which inflict damage even as they cleanse those conditions. DIRE is not used. . Most is shamans or apothecary. This i find much more survivable then dire

A condition thief is just as prone to conditions as is a power thief and as has already been acknowledged toughness from his dire does nothing to defend him against conditions.

S/d I use escapists with the Acro line . I keep PR but drop GI as this build has no ready heal sources ( If i took IP and assissins reward I would trait GI) Escapists works wonderfully as does infiltrators for cleanses. Since it predicated on a lot of weapon swaps a cleasning sigil used. It has a whole lot of condition cleanses.

Cripple? No real effect with UC in play which also kills chills and Immobs. I used to use don’t stop as well but found it overkill so went upper hand. More regen and I get more INI that INI keeps lead attacks damage nearer 15 percent and coupled with quikpockets allows a whole lot of in a row infiltrators for rapid cleanses.

UC and Lotus cancels each other for the most part. I do acknowledge that condi-build is weak against condi-build…but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

Than what ARE we talking about. I can assure you a power build thief is NOT weak against a condition build thief unless they refuse to trait for condition cleanses.

You’re bringing your argument against another in response to mine. I’m not talking about weaknesses or who can beat who. My point is about the trade offs and what makes condi-build cheesy. So what if condi-build dies in some circumstances against another build, it’s still doesn’t change the perception that it is a cheesy build since it can build damage and survivability without sacrifices.

If at any time that a condi-build ever have to sacrifice damage for survivability or survivability for damage, I’ll be convinced that it’s not as cheesy as I believed it to be. But so far, nobody can justify why an Undead + Carrion (PvE Dire) even exists.

I think I’ve made my point quite clear and the only responses I’m getting is about something totally unrelated.

You’ll never convince baba that dire condi is cheesy because he staunchly defends the build regardless of context and makes claims that the build is a lot riskier than it really is.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Yes condition damage ignores tougness/armor but Condition damage does NOT get any better than it is against any armor type.

The Condition damage against light armor is the same as against heavy and is the same against medium. It still less damage in a given period of time than is power and Condition still needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard.

You’re making it sound like it’s a bad thing. The fact is, unlike power-build, condi-build’s damage stays the same against heavy while power-build’s damage diminishes. On top of that, power-build has to actively attacking while condi-build can simply kite or stealth. Actively attacking, as I’ve already mentioned, makes power-build open for counter play while condi-build don’t have to worry about counter play.

The best counter play against power-build is weakness and cripple, and condi-build has a lot of those type of condition to keep a power-build at bay. The fact is, even with a cleanse, one can only cleanse so much and in term of a condi-Thief, conditions are really easy to reapply.

That is why Condition needs to last longer and why that tougness and vitality so important.

There are two types of conditions; 1) conditions that deals damage and 2) conditions that hinders. You don’t need duration for conditions that deals damage since it is way better to focus on potency to increase the DPS. Conditions like cripple and chill would need duration, but this is not that important. Potency generates pressure not duration. Investing in duration over potency will result to a lackluster condition damage output. This is why you think that it “needs time to build up those stacks before they start ticking hard” because you think that it needs duration instead of potency. A high potency condition doesn’t need time to build up.

To give you an idea, with 1500 condition damage Carrion + Undead, 2x DB with Spider Venom + Steal will tick for 2k per second for 8-10sec applied within 2sec time frame. Uncleansed, that’s enough to kill any profession that is not a bunker Necro. And ever since the buff on vulnerability, condi-build just gotten even cheesier.

You can take a lightly armored class down in one quick attack with Power. You can not do that with Condition. If you kill that person quickly then you are not worried about your own armor. That person is dead.

This is why a power thief will generally win against a condition thief. That unless the power thief decides he can do without cleanses.

Even with cleanse, you cannot possible cleanse all conditions applied to you. Two things that breaks power-build, weakness and cripple. How do you intend to kill your target if you’re often weakened and crippled?

Yes you can do that on a light armor target, but once the target bunker up, power-builds are starting to have a hard time. Condi-build doesn’t really matter what the target is wearing since it will deal the same amount of damage. The only real mitigation against condition damage is Regen — good luck getting that on your own as a power-Thief.

There just as much “cheese” in power builds.

I disagree. Power-build sacrifices survivability and they are often exposed to counter play in order to deal damage. It’s perfectly balance. Condi-build neither sacrifice survivability nor it has to be exposed to counter play to deal damage — that’s cheesy.

People are just overly fascinated with big numbers so when they see a 15k backstab too prone to patting themselves on the back claiming it a function of skill when it a function of the build traits and armor chosen.Yes it might be a bit harder with keystrokes to get that backstab off but even a low skilled thief can do it.

Sure if they don’t shatter like glass before that happens.

Ignoring Condition cleanses just to load up on stuff that makes a power build hit harder is the problem of the thief that goes that course and not of the one that uses conditions.

I don’t know why the point that “condi-build is tanky that’s why it’s cheesy” keep on getting lost in the discussion. It doesn’t really matter if the target can cleanse every condition I apply, as long they can’t deal damage because they are too busy cleansing it will win it out in favor of condi-build, thus the problem lies on the condi-build.

The goal of a power-build who sacrifice survivability is to be capable of taking down any target before they die in the process. If the power-build can’t do that because the target is too tanky, then there is no value in the sacrifices. For a condi-build can deal that much damage, they should not be allowed to be too tanky.

Just look at the amulets available for power-build in order for them to deal a lot of damage. They can take Berserker which sacrifices both vitality and toughness. Now look at the condition amulets, they either have vitality or toughness. Undead + Rabid will give you 3k armor and 16k condition damage — that’s just ridiculous.

If we are talking WvW i have two builds which all but keep conditions off me while outputing excellent damage. This includes your weakness and crippled. These are cleansed as i attack. Cleansing a condition does not preclude an attack.

One , paradoxically is a condition build. the other is a power build. Acro is key here including some of the very traits you dismissed as useless in a previous post.

As example with GI shamans build condition d/d using acro I have high regen uptime (near 290 per tick). I have easy access to heals to keep my health above 75 percent. This keeps weakness/vulnerability/confusion/slow off me almost entirely. PR kicks in every 20 seconds for torment/burning/poison/bleeding. I have escapists which removes on evade the evades of which inflict damage even as they cleanse those conditions. DIRE is not used. . Most is shamans or apothecary. This i find much more survivable then dire

A condition thief is just as prone to conditions as is a power thief and as has already been acknowledged toughness from his dire does nothing to defend him against conditions.

S/d I use escapists with the Acro line . I keep PR but drop GI as this build has no ready heal sources ( If i took IP and assissins reward I would trait GI) Escapists works wonderfully as does infiltrators for cleanses. Since it predicated on a lot of weapon swaps a cleasning sigil used. It has a whole lot of condition cleanses.

Cripple? No real effect with UC in play which also kills chills and Immobs. I used to use don’t stop as well but found it overkill so went upper hand. More regen and I get more INI that INI keeps lead attacks damage nearer 15 percent and coupled with quikpockets allows a whole lot of in a row infiltrators for rapid cleanses.

UC and Lotus cancels each other for the most part. I do acknowledge that condi-build is weak against condi-build…but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

Than what ARE we talking about. I can assure you a power build thief is NOT weak against a condition build thief unless they refuse to trait for condition cleanses.

You’re bringing your argument against another in response to mine. I’m not talking about weaknesses or who can beat who. My point is about the trade offs and what makes condi-build cheesy. So what if condi-build dies in some circumstances against another build, it’s still doesn’t change the perception that it is a cheesy build since it can build damage and survivability without sacrifices.

If at any time that a condi-build ever have to sacrifice damage for survivability or survivability for damage, I’ll be convinced that it’s not as cheesy as I believed it to be. But so far, nobody can justify why an Undead + Carrion (PvE Dire) even exists.

I think I’ve made my point quite clear and the only responses I’m getting is about something totally unrelated.

the condition build sacrifices DAMAGE. I do not know how many times that has to be repeated. A power build will always put out more damage . Your problem sis you think a thief that goes condition is somehow not a thief so you only compare it “not giving up damage while having toughness and vitality” to itself and not to a power thief.

If a thief goes condition he WILL give up damage. You can prove that to yourself just by doing single AA iterations against a heavy golem using dagger. The power theif will get over 6k more damage just by hitting 1 three times.

Now take shadowshot against a heavy golem and use it once at 4 INI . Compare it to one use of DB from a thief using conditions and bleeds. I get 3800 on a d/p build no stacks heavy golem using shadowshot. 3 bleeds using your 1500 number will generate 336 damage pre tick regardless of armor. If that ticked the full ten seconds it will still be less then the D/p damage.

Shadowshot will do yet more damage against light amd medium armor.

So for that same 4 ini using shadowshot versus DB you get the same damage or more then does the kittenainst heavy Armor IF the DB bleed runs the full 10 seconds and you get more damage than that against light and medium.

To even GO condition you give up damage.

DeceiverX.8361:

You’ll never convince baba that dire condi is cheesy because he staunchly defends the build regardless of context and makes claims that the build is a lot riskier than it really is.

No i defend it because you have already expressed your disgust for any build that has not met your prior approval as you advance your “skillful play” meme. You are in no way shape or form objective. You have made that abundantly clear.

While I much prefer playing power builds because I find them more effective overall, I play with d/d condition (as well as /p/d a long time ago) and am well aware of the relative strengths and weaknesses. While they certainly have more staying power they can not inflict as much damage overall. That they might be “easier to play” is absolutely meaningless if a person with a modicum of skill on a power build can kill them.

If they could never be killed and always won no matter the skill of the oppoent then they would be OP. Given I do not consider myself as high skilled as you claim to be and I can kill Condition theives on my power build, I do not see the issue.

babazhook.6805:

No decent p/d thief will use shadowstrike then run towards a foe to use it again. That just inane.

You don’t have to be decent to run condi.