Guild Wars 2

So,

I see S/D & D/D touted all over the place for Theives.

But never P/P.

In playing it, the damage seemed to be there & with the right traits & utilities it’s been working pretty well, as far as I can tell.

I’m sure D/D has overall highe Dps when you number crunch, but why is P/P generally considered bad for PvE?

Cheers,

B

I’m pretty sure the main reason is that while Unload does a ton of dps, you can’t keep up with the initiative cost. This makes your damage fall off rather fast.

also less damage
auto attack is terrible
no heartseeker and back stab

if you trait for some initiative recovery you can keep up with it, also i have use d/d for pie dos but i have also use p/p and i can see 30k cries on p/p and i never seen those numbers on d/d, for me it is hard to decide because we have no meter to compare plus it also depends on group comp, but i think is def viable and the damage diff is not that much.

Plus you can stay alive way more than with d/d and the blinds and vulnerability proc quite often. One bad thing is, some times is boring, spamming unload can it be.

Any how i put my pve p/p build here and feel free to leave an opinion

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa4Yl8Mp6pdPx3J0PNxLRt9IUBfonrxZo5EEAA-ThSBwAUOBAFViRb/BzKBvq8IyTA4m6Po0PgwEDgDCAA-e

you can change in trickery the V for IV, and the SR for more power or signet of agility for con clear+crit. Also runes can be swap for scholar but i like the might stack to gain more dmg

It does decent burst at the expense of terrible sustained DPS, terrible mobility, and terrible utility. This is mostly because the autoattack sucks and Unload is the only other source of significant damage.

It’s a badly designed set and it’s unreal that they haven’t found a way to address it in over two years.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAqaVl8MpypFOxzJ8PNBPhsdhGB88YzOvVD-TFCBAB+t/QfHBgRV/5MlgYp8DgTAQe6DC4RAQIAzjBA-w

This is what I use, its fun for when i want something different.

PROS:
Using the elite skill with the runes is pretty much a guaranteed hit with Basilisk Venom
Your primary heal becomes the elite skill, with your normal heal skill being your second one.
I haven’t had a real issue with running out of int..
3 extra dodges
Dodge also grants might

CONS:
You have no stealth
You have no stealth
You have no stealth

Edit: added additional pros, will add more as/if this thread progesses

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa4YlsMp7pVOx6J8PNxPhs5gAc/YSHPXeE-ThSBwAUOBAFVi5b/BzKBvq8IyTA4m6Po0PgwEDgDCAA-e
Having run a pew pew thief for about a year now. I find that the initiative on stealth is best for maintaining the damage output. By adding in the stealth skills and stealing into the damage rotation I can maintain a pretty constant unload and the stealth skill for main hand pistols is nothing to sneeze at either

I run P/P and don’t have an issue with initiative in a PvE setting, but I have no illusions about it being on par with other classes. I have to put everything into boosting that Unload DPS to decent levels, so while I do more damage than some other classes, I have no bells and whistles like utility or defense. It’s fun, but Anet doesn’t seem to want it to be good, actually, else they would have given it a once-over by now.

Basically, Thieves are a melee stealth class as far as they’re concerned.

Presently this is the build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa4Yl8MpzpFOxxJsPNxLhs9oKb8Ks2TCMA-ThSBwAUOBAFViRb/BzKBvq8IyTA4m6Po0PgwEDgDCAA-e

Initiative doesn’t seem to be an issue, despite what people say & the build is 100% PvE so burst damage doesn’t bother me. Usually a few quick shots to lead in followed by Unload ends most anything in front of me other than elites & champs. Thanks to caltrops, I’m out of range basically 24/7.

I will admit Unload blows thru Initiative like water, but unlike other Theives I’ve been around, I pretty much never drop. Very, very rarely. Perhaps it’s not as sustained, but… Survivability with Berserker is pretty high as I’ve seen so far…

You only use P/P for two reasons;

1) You can’t physically get into melee range of your target for whatever reason (i.e. target too high, fissure in between, AoE in between, etc)

2) You’re not taking GW2 seriously and you rather look cooler than be effective contributor to the task.

I personally have a 3rd reason, I hate shortbows.

With that said, the sacrifice of DPS is justified because obviously you have no other choice. Some Thief might defend shortbow but that’s not even a valid choice for me.

I have ran P/P for 2 years now. I enjoy it.

We are the Highest Ranged DPS class in the game. I think.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You only use P/P for two reasons;

1) You can’t physically get into melee range of your target for whatever reason (i.e. target too high, fissure in between, AoE in between, etc)

2) You’re not taking GW2 seriously and you rather look cooler than be effective contributor to the task.

I personally have a 3rd reason, I hate shortbows.

With that said, the sacrifice of DPS is justified because obviously you have no other choice. Some Thief might defend shortbow but that’s not even a valid choice for me.

Lol, elitist much?

Not everything has to be razor-point Max DPS to be effective.

Versus the Thieves I’ve seen running around, the Pew Pew build as detailed above spends less time on its face & more time shooting.

Even if Stab Stab has better sustained damage, if Pew Pew has better burst… The end result might be about the same. Plus less chance of getting face rolled by bein out of melee as a berserker build.

So, maybe daggers beats pistols on overall end damage, but isn’t there an advantage to being able to easily avoid taking hits & not being downed? Certainly that counts for something.

I made a thread on this forum around 7 months ago showing a viable P/P
build that can compete with anything out there, wether it’s 1v1, spvp or roaming.
it’s even stronger now then it was 7 months ago with the faster unload animation.

all the details are in the following link and there is also a video showing gameplay:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Guns-Blazing-A-Viable-P-P-Build-Vid/first#post4259125

have fun pew pewing

I play with my PP all the time lately. Does more DPS than SB, just lacks survival skills and vital shot still needs buffed, making it dependent on specing as much ini as possible.

I generally use S/P and S/D with it.

HardOleg.8063:

I made a thread on this forum around 7 months ago showing a viable P/P
build that can compete with anything out there, wether it’s 1v1, spvp or roaming.
it’s even stronger now then it was 7 months ago with the faster unload animation.

all the details are in the following link and there is also a video showing gameplay:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Guns-Blazing-A-Viable-P-P-Build-Vid/first#post4259125

have fun pew pewing

I will definitely be reading your post in detail.

A quick question. Do you find the loss of the Power from Deadly Arts to be a problem? Or does the Might stacks from Stealing overcome that loss?

I generally see Zerker builds do 66xxx. Sometimes that’s bot the best, but I’m just wondering. Did you find incorporating theft (stealth & sigils in other suggested builds) works better than running full 6 DA?

I use it.

People saying it sucks are wrong.

It requires you to be careful with evasion because you have no mobility, but it’s very good with the right traits and sigils.

Trying to get it to melt DPS guards.

Brokenangel.1389:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You only use P/P for two reasons;

1) You can’t physically get into melee range of your target for whatever reason (i.e. target too high, fissure in between, AoE in between, etc)

2) You’re not taking GW2 seriously and you rather look cooler than be effective contributor to the task.

I personally have a 3rd reason, I hate shortbows.

With that said, the sacrifice of DPS is justified because obviously you have no other choice. Some Thief might defend shortbow but that’s not even a valid choice for me.

Lol, elitist much?

Not everything has to be razor-point Max DPS to be effective.

That’s the reality. P/P is seen through elitist’s lens.

And just to be clear, I don’t share the opinion of #1 and #2, I have my own reason (#3).

Versus the Thieves I’ve seen running around, the Pew Pew build as detailed above spends less time on its face & more time shooting.

Only problem is that you can’t spend “more time” shooting.

The reality is, you either sacrifice decent utility skills to feed your pew-pew with more initiatives which would mean that you’d spend more time dead, or you let yourself ran out of initiatives and simply auto-attacking.

At the current state of the game, you cannot possible maintain pew-pew endlessly.

Even if Stab Stab has better sustained damage, if Pew Pew has better burst… The end result might be about the same. Plus less chance of getting face rolled by bein out of melee as a berserker build.

I disagree only because CnD→backstab or BB→HS→BS is more initiative efficient than P/P can ever muster. For the full bar of initiatives, D/x out damage P/P in any scenario (except for the reason #1).

So, maybe daggers beats pistols on overall end damage, but isn’t there an advantage to being able to easily avoid taking hits & not being downed? Certainly that counts for something.

Quite true. I truly believe that also, however, I don’t believe that my damage would be the same as a D/x build.

We have to remember that P/P does not work with much stealth, so despite being melee, other set-ups do have higher survivability. Range and dodging are poor substitutes for just disappearing off of the map.

S/D + P/P isn’t too bad for power specs, although with no SB you sacrifice a lot of utility. But with P/P you can offset the weaknesses of S/D alot better, using ranged pressure to finish off people or open up a fight before switching to S/D. Spammo unload builds just dont work IMO.

roamzero.9486:

S/D + P/P isn’t too bad for power specs, although with no SB you sacrifice a lot of utility. But with P/P you can offset the weaknesses of S/D alot better, using ranged pressure to finish off people or open up a fight before switching to S/D. Spammo unload builds just dont work IMO.

Nah dude I thought it was great and all till I tired the spec on a few spvp matches… It sucks I’ve tried to come up with the best builds for it but it just wasn’t possible

Gamblit.5041:

I have ran P/P for 2 years now. I enjoy it.

We are the Highest Ranged DPS class in the game. I think.

Then you think wrong. Elementalist Staff have a way higher DPS. By a couple thousands of dps. And staff is mostly AoE vs D/D mostly single target.

Interesting arguments presented from both sides, which is helpful to me I think.

I’ve no interest in the build’s viability in PvP, this is strictly a PvE build. So any arguments concerning PvP are moot (for my purposes).

In terms of dodging being no substitute for stealth of similar evasive skills, I totally disagree (especially since you can still take damage in stealth & some skills can still track you in stealth, so it’s not even close to a perfect defense). As my primary is an Elementalist, in used to kiting with really only dodging as my damage avoidance. So doing so as a thief, I don’t see a big difference. Plus with caltrops drop on dodge (as its presently part of the build), 50% slow for 6.5? that pretty much keeps everything at bay forever.

As far as “unsustainable” Unload vollies? Well, considering you can Unload every couple of seconds with ease thanks to traits & initiative regen (critical hit rate is about 90% with Unload), it’s more sustainable than you’d think.

If utility is needed for a run, such s Shadow Refuge or what not, it’s not like I can’t switch to it.

And as far as you can’t fire “more” the reference was that I find I’m face down less often with the build than other Theives I’ve seen runnin around. Not necessarily less so than people who are doing rotation counts & playing the game by numbers, but overall the more uptime I can get out of a build, it occurs to me the more damage you can do

I mean the term “glass cannon” implies range, I’d rather not be a sheet of wet paper in melee range of I can help it…

Stealth isn’t really a argument in PvE. The only and single argument D/D vs P/P is the dps difference. Lets compare the meta D/D to this P/P build in a dungeon group :
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa4Yl0MpwpdPxxJ0PNxLhs9oKb8c8ZNnEA-ThRBABXt/o8DP9D5dCAA4BAQp6PmpEUUARE-e

Ok so we are taking into consideration both warrior banner, perma fury, 25 stack of might and 25 stack of vulnerability. We are taking into consideration these damage modifiers as they were constant. Sigil of Force, Sigil of Night, Scholar, Slaying Potion, Pistol Mastery, First Strike, Executionner, Flanking Strikes and Combined Training. I think I was generous and I estimated that in a 30sec fight you can do 9 Unload and 15 auto-attack. At max each unload will make 22k dmg and each auto-attack with make 3.3k dmg. That give us 7.6k dps of direct dmg over a 30sec period. Add to that the bleed from the auto-attack which is 15 times x 210dmg over the 30sec figth for an additional 105 dps. Grand total of 7.7k dps compare to 11-12k dps of a D/D in the same situation. Now that’s a rough estimate, for better numbers we would have to make a rotation test on golem to make sure how much of each attack we can put into a 30sec fight. But it give you an idea of how much P/P dps is lacking compare to D/D.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I personally have a 3rd reason, I hate shortbows.

With that said, the sacrifice of DPS is justified because obviously you have no other choice. Some Thief might defend shortbow but that’s not even a valid choice for me.

I actually was going to ask this question on this post. I’ve been thinking about running p/p as my offhand instead of sb for my wvw roaming build. Reason being is that when I swap to sb for whatever reason when I need the ranged dmg, I do so little compared to when I’m on my d/d. The only trait I would change is quickness on crit to more dmg with pistols. it’s a 26600 d/d build so it just might work? What are the thoughts? To me sb is more of a melee weapon than a ranged weapon because 2 spam.

Thaddeus.4891:

Stealth isn’t really a argument in PvE. The only and single argument D/D vs P/P is the dps difference. Lets compare the meta D/D to this P/P build in a dungeon group :
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa4Yl0MpwpdPxxJ0PNxLhs9oKb8c8ZNnEA-ThRBABXt/o8DP9D5dCAA4BAQp6PmpEUUARE-e

Ok so we are taking into consideration both warrior banner, perma fury, 25 stack of might and 25 stack of vulnerability. We are taking into consideration these damage modifiers as they were constant. Sigil of Force, Sigil of Night, Scholar, Slaying Potion, Pistol Mastery, First Strike, Executionner, Flanking Strikes and Combined Training. I think I was generous and I estimated that in a 30sec fight you can do 9 Unload and 15 auto-attack. At max each unload will make 22k dmg and each auto-attack with make 3.3k dmg. That give us 7.6k dps of direct dmg over a 30sec period. Add to that the bleed from the auto-attack which is 15 times x 210dmg over the 30sec figth for an additional 105 dps. Grand total of 7.7k dps compare to 11-12k dps of a D/D in the same situation. Now that’s a rough estimate, for better numbers we would have to make a rotation test on golem to make sure how much of each attack we can put into a 30sec fight. But it give you an idea of how much P/P dps is lacking compare to D/D.

I have used both extensively in WvW and PVE such comparisons are hard to do and fundamentally flawed.

Take that Champion abomination in Orr. I pump out way more damage using PP over a period of time simply because I can stay at range and not as subject to being downed by those swipes and charges which can take any thief down in one swoop. The same happens in those mass invasion events at penitent point and other places. Again with range and Ricochet I am pounding out more damage as I am taking less. I do not have to stealth as much (which takes time and Ini) to set up attacks or to reset health so can maintain constant pressure.

Obviously if you face a single target that does not attack back such as the Golem raw damage from d/d is higher. That however does not translate over into game mode where one has to deal with AOE effects, pulls, knockdowns and the like.

An example of this would be killing that dragon in the most recent story event. I finished him rather quickly with P/P unloads as i could both do damage and stay out of those orange circles.

In WvW this means not having to go into a engineers Turret or nades fields, avoiding those hammer trains , pounding out damage while avoiding AOE fields and not having to burn off all ones ports just to get close enough to a ranger too setup that big backstab, Yes INI is a factor but one can not do DPS comparisons without including the times one is not doing damage or just trying to avoid it.

We do have two sets of weapons we can use on a simple weapon swap. Using P/P and setting up for the same does not preclude the thief from using another set when it advantageous to do so. There ARE many situations where one will simply do more outright damage with P/P both in PvE and WvW.

babazhook.6805:

I have used both extensively in WvW and PVE such comparisons are hard to do and fundamentally flawed.

First of all its only about PvE, pls don’t mix different game mode together.

You are saying that P/P do more damage because aren’t able to melee some stuff, which is not really the problem at hand here. If you are not able to melee then use P/P, but that doesn’t make that weapon set any better. Unless i’m in a bad fractal 50 party i’m able to melee anything in this game (maybe some very few exception that i don’t have on the top of my head). Most of the time, if I use P/P, its because I feel lazy.

reinforever.8902:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I personally have a 3rd reason, I hate shortbows.

With that said, the sacrifice of DPS is justified because obviously you have no other choice. Some Thief might defend shortbow but that’s not even a valid choice for me.

I actually was going to ask this question on this post. I’ve been thinking about running p/p as my offhand instead of sb for my wvw roaming build. Reason being is that when I swap to sb for whatever reason when I need the ranged dmg, I do so little compared to when I’m on my d/d. The only trait I would change is quickness on crit to more dmg with pistols. it’s a 26600 d/d build so it just might work? What are the thoughts? To me sb is more of a melee weapon than a ranged weapon because 2 spam.

The problem I have with shortbow is the projectile speed. The time it takes to travel before hitting the target is the same regardless of the range difference. Just for clarification, the arrow takes 1s to hit my target at 900 range — acceptable, but when it take 1s to hit my target at point blank range — we have a problem.

Other than that, P/P gives a lot more options for controlling your target with Body Shot, Head Shot, and Black Powder where shortbow doesn’t really have.

However, shortbow has more access to damage skills with Cluster Bomb and Poison Gas and with better initiative management compare to P/P.

Before ArenaNet nerfed shortbow’s range, it is my go to weapon for a long range target and my P/P for mid-range target. Since now that shortbow has the same range as pistol, there’s no good reason for me to use it — in PvE.

As for WvW, there is no fixed weapon choice because you really have to bring everything from dagger, to pistol, to sword, to traps, etc. to get the job done. Also “roaming” is a broad task. You could be roaming to kill other roamers or take points. Or you could be roaming to scout the enemy forces. Or whatever. So the best choice of weapon is really depends on how you play your Thief and what is important to you.

Mobile Thieves choose shortbow while control Thieves uses P/P.

Revenant… packs travel bag see yah!

Thaddeus.4891:

Stealth isn’t really a argument in PvE. The only and single argument D/D vs P/P is the dps difference. Lets compare the meta D/D to this P/P build in a dungeon group :
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa4Yl0MpwpdPxxJ0PNxLhs9oKb8c8ZNnEA-ThRBABXt/o8DP9D5dCAA4BAQp6PmpEUUARE-e

Ok so we are taking into consideration both warrior banner, perma fury, 25 stack of might and 25 stack of vulnerability. We are taking into consideration these damage modifiers as they were constant. Sigil of Force, Sigil of Night, Scholar, Slaying Potion, Pistol Mastery, First Strike, Executionner, Flanking Strikes and Combined Training. I think I was generous and I estimated that in a 30sec fight you can do 9 Unload and 15 auto-attack. At max each unload will make 22k dmg and each auto-attack with make 3.3k dmg. That give us 7.6k dps of direct dmg over a 30sec period. Add to that the bleed from the auto-attack which is 15 times x 210dmg over the 30sec figth for an additional 105 dps. Grand total of 7.7k dps compare to 11-12k dps of a D/D in the same situation. Now that’s a rough estimate, for better numbers we would have to make a rotation test on golem to make sure how much of each attack we can put into a 30sec fight. But it give you an idea of how much P/P dps is lacking compare to D/D.

Thanks for breaking down the numbers.
So I think this topic boils down to:
- if you play in a (at least semi-) organized party, where ppl care about might-stacking, boon-sharing, trying to do stuff fast, then you really shouldn’t play P/P
- if you play in an uncoordinated party (pug, friends or guild, doesnt really matter), where pretty much everyone is PHIW (some range, some melee, some play offensive, some rather defensive, time til finish doesn’t matter too much) going P/P is absolutly ok since your dps won’t be lower than the other ones

amirite?

Nephrite.6954:

Revenant… packs travel bag see yah!

w8 for me. i shall join the qq train.

Nash.2681:

Thanks for breaking down the numbers.
So I think this topic boils down to:
- if you play in a (at least semi-) organized party, where ppl care about might-stacking, boon-sharing, trying to do stuff fast, then you really shouldn’t play P/P
- if you play in an uncoordinated party (pug, friends or guild, doesnt really matter), where pretty much everyone is PHIW (some range, some melee, some play offensive, some rather defensive, time til finish doesn’t matter too much) going P/P is absolutly ok since your dps won’t be lower than the other ones

amirite?

Nope. As a thief you don’t really contribute to max fury and might, you only have a small contribution on Vulnerability. If P/P would give party wide might and fury, then you could be rigtht, but it’s not the case.

D/D will always be 40-50% more dps than P/P, whatever your group is. The reason to take P/P is when you are not able to melee something. You should never use P/P in dungeon because there is no bosses that can’t be melee. For fractals, at higher level in organized group you probably won’t be able to melee some bosses. In that case P/P would be a better option.

Keep in mind that if you still wanna use P/P everywhere you can. Better use P/P in a good dps build/gear than using D/D on a full nomad armor after all. But keep in mind that you take the easy and less efficient way of playing thief in PvE. If you really have difficulty to stay alive in D/D, but still want to improve. Sw/P is a good compromise. With a good timing of your pistol whip you have access to an evade each couple second when you fight harder bosses.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

reinforever.8902:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I personally have a 3rd reason, I hate shortbows.

With that said, the sacrifice of DPS is justified because obviously you have no other choice. Some Thief might defend shortbow but that’s not even a valid choice for me.

I actually was going to ask this question on this post. I’ve been thinking about running p/p as my offhand instead of sb for my wvw roaming build. Reason being is that when I swap to sb for whatever reason when I need the ranged dmg, I do so little compared to when I’m on my d/d. The only trait I would change is quickness on crit to more dmg with pistols. it’s a 26600 d/d build so it just might work? What are the thoughts? To me sb is more of a melee weapon than a ranged weapon because 2 spam.

The problem I have with shortbow is the projectile speed. The time it takes to travel before hitting the target is the same regardless of the range difference. Just for clarification, the arrow takes 1s to hit my target at 900 range — acceptable, but when it take 1s to hit my target at point blank range — we have a problem.

Other than that, P/P gives a lot more options for controlling your target with Body Shot, Head Shot, and Black Powder where shortbow doesn’t really have.

However, shortbow has more access to damage skills with Cluster Bomb and Poison Gas and with better initiative management compare to P/P.

Before ArenaNet nerfed shortbow’s range, it is my go to weapon for a long range target and my P/P for mid-range target. Since now that shortbow has the same range as pistol, there’s no good reason for me to use it — in PvE.

As for WvW, there is no fixed weapon choice because you really have to bring everything from dagger, to pistol, to sword, to traps, etc. to get the job done. Also “roaming” is a broad task. You could be roaming to kill other roamers or take points. Or you could be roaming to scout the enemy forces. Or whatever. So the best choice of weapon is really depends on how you play your Thief and what is important to you.

Mobile Thieves choose shortbow while control Thieves uses P/P.

To me roaming is everything you listed combined into one, not just one of them. So I do my fair share of all that (especially killing). I was having a discussion about it with someone and they brought up a lot of fair points for sb in a roaming wvw situations compared to p/p. A few of the things mentioned
*sb has easy blast finishers which are amazing essential for group roaming/havoc, compared to p/p’s chance at projectile finishers only.
*sb has a kitten ton of AOE. This is important for fighting shatter mesmers, or stealth abusers and has many other applications, whereas again p/p only has single target dmg (assuming I keep my 26600 build instead of traiting into trickery).
*sb allows for some very strong shadowstep map exploitation.
the damage form [unload] is just so insane for ranged pressure that it’s very hard for me to decide between the two.