Plus 1 is NOT a Role
This should be stickied. That is one of the few mentalities that got thief where its at right now.
“Please stop complaining about stuff you don’t even know about.” ~Nocta
I don’t normally reply if I haven’t really got much to add, but to this one I feel like I just have to let people know that I fully agree with the statement.
+1 to the +1 neglect we are stuck with.
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
Thief does have a few uses outside "+1"ing but they’re normally tied to specific setups (like shortbow bouncing across maps, ties to specific weapon set and init usage), or are easily countered (burn guardian against 95% of thief builds).
Overall, +1 to the thread.
Yup, +1 this. Any other class can +1 if the player understands how to rotate, it’s not a thief only thing and we shouldn’t be balanced as though it was.
Don’t follow me, unless you enjoy being chased by angry men with sticks.
Power Build Condi Build
When it comes to mobility we are excellent at +1, but the problem is if we go to a point on our own for a 1v1 we are at a serious disadvantage with our reliance on stealth to survive = losing the point even while fighting on it.
Big disadvantage, mesmers dont even suffer from it much because their clones can keep the damage up on their target while stealthed
+ 1 to this post. Over years, patch after patch thief slowly degenerated from assassin/roamer that posed a threat to sad utility pet used for stealth/+1/rezzes, heavily relying on teammates to do the fighting and not capable to hold weight on its own.
Thief is not a class anymore really, only thing that holds them in meta is sb 5.
It relies mainly on single target dmg that is not even highest among other classes and often too complicated to execute. Very low survival (again compared to other classses). Not king of stealth anymore either. Moblity is there but current dd ele and mes can do just as well while having more tools at their disposal. Don’t let me start on team utility/support.
Thief is still balanced around stupid glass cannon mentality while other classes do just as much (if not more dmg) while having absurd high survivability, CCs and good access to moblity.
Bottom line, i think thief could use some changes here and there but mainly Anet should really tone down other classes to thief level and stop handling them out improved versions of all the thief tools.
[Teef] guild :>
(edited by Cynz.9437)
The original perk of the thief having the highest DPS is now outshined by the across the board buffs. SB5, SR are probably the two things holding it up. And backstab of course because it is a high multiplier.
The role of “+1” never made sense nor it was even logical to begin with…it’s not like Thief makes the game 5v5+1.
In any 5v5 sports, the 10 players plays the game and the “plus one” carries the towel and the drinks.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
I don’t have much to add to this post other than agreeing with the OP. I recently switched to thief because I’ve fallen in love with the gameplay for the first time after main-ing Engineer for 2 years. I just don’t like the +1 role that thief is assigned to in PVP, it should at least have one or two more options available to it!
I don’t have much to add to this post other than agreeing with the OP. I recently switched to thief because I’ve fallen in love with the gameplay for the first time after main-ing Engineer for 2 years. I just don’t like the +1 role that thief is assigned to in PVP, it should at least have one or two more options available to it!
That is the joke: +1 isn’t role lol
[Teef] guild :>
+1, or rather a player controlled add.
We’re not Mai Trin…..we’re Horrik
+1, or rather a player controlled add.
We’re not Mai Trin…..we’re Horrik
but Horrik’s got defence.
The role of “+1” never made sense nor it was even logical to begin with…it’s not like Thief makes the game 5v5+1.
In any 5v5 sports, the 10 players plays the game and the “plus one” carries the towel and the drinks.
I think of the plus one like a pick and roll. The numbers are always even but you can create imbalance in certain places. In theory any class could do this, but in reality only maybe 2 has the mobility and retreat mechanisms to do so.
The first time I saw “Thief can +1 the best, so its relevant”, I cringed in disgust.
Glad to see I’m not the only one unwilling to settle to the role of an add.
Somethings wrong with that. Something’s really wrong with it. Especially when, at the same time, getting paired with more than one thief on your team in ranked is a death sentence.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
The role of “+1” never made sense nor it was even logical to begin with…it’s not like Thief makes the game 5v5+1.
In any 5v5 sports, the 10 players plays the game and the “plus one” carries the towel and the drinks.
I think of the plus one like a pick and roll. The numbers are always even but you can create imbalance in certain places. In theory any class could do this, but in reality only maybe 2 has the mobility and retreat mechanisms to do so.
Not really pick and roll, but more like double team…which the concept is the same.
Since the number of players are even on both sides, the imbalance that a “+1” offer is nothing but an illusion since the team thinks that they are creating an imbalance on their favor but in reality they are creating an imbalance on the enemy’s favor at the same time where is is often exploited to their disadvantage.
This is why a man-to-man or a zone defense is more effective than double team (or +1). You’ll see the effectiveness of the zone defense in terms of Necro and Engineer skills that controls any zone. Thief on the other hand would be really good is their role is to stick to one target (man-to-man) and that’s all their role…making sure their target don’t do anything without their permission. In GW1, Mesmer and Assassin are really good at man-to-man defense, they stick to their target and they make sure that their target don’t get to cast any spell on their allies by putting pressure and interrupting any spells.
This is what the Thief role should be. Hide in the shadow and pops out to harass and interrupt their target and more tactical than what it is now. They were going the right direction with S/D build before (until they nerfed it to the ground) because the Thief actually had a role then. S/D was on the right spot controlling their target. But whatever, I’ve already said too much.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
+1ing is a perfectly effective strategy. That’s why you see so many teams taking a thief, because the strategy gets results and Thief does it well.
The main role a thief plays currently is using it’s mobility to +1 or decap. It may not be the role everyone likes to play, but it’s what the meta build is good at.
Saying that what thief is good at is not a role, when it’s actually what thief does to get results is denial.
It’d be better to present constructive feedback on how to improve thief at other roles and ask for more role options than to complain in denial about what actually does work, since it’s better to have 1 meta build than 0.
Norn Guardian – Aurora Lustyr (Lv 80)
Mia A Shadows Glow – Human Thief (Lv 80)
+1ing is a perfectly effective strategy. That’s why you see so many teams taking a thief, because the strategy gets results and Thief does it well.
The main role a thief plays currently is using it’s mobility to +1 or decap. It may not be the role everyone likes to play, but it’s what the meta build is good at.
Saying that what thief is good at is not a role, when it’s actually what thief does to get results is denial.
It’d be better to present constructive feedback on how to improve thief at other roles and ask for more role options than to complain in denial about what actually does work, since it’s better to have 1 meta build than 0.
The point is, +1 is not a role, it is feature. And best joke is there are plenty of classes that can do +1 pretty well w/o being so absurdly squishy (eles, mes).
[Teef] guild :>
The main role a thief plays currently is using it’s mobility to +1 or decap.
See, I think that’s the issue. We are playing the squire while everyone else gets to be the knight.
“You polish my armor. You make the meals. You take care of the horses. You deliver this message. You bandage my wounds after the battle.”
You could say that the following are valid roles…
1. Do 50% of the amount of damage someone else can do.
2. Stand on empty spots if you can find them.
3. If you can’t find an empty spot or you see the enemy, then do this… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWTJ8iZr7ro
The problem with “+1” is that any “1” can do it. And others could probably do it better.
The first problem with (de)capping an empty point is that it’s a passive “role.”
The second problem is that anybody else could do the same. In fact, not only could they (de)cap a point, they could also hold it better.
Really, the only advantage a Thief has in either of the two “roles” is the seconds-shaving Infiltrator’s Arrow. If any other profession had it, why even bring a Thief? Actually, why not bring a perma-Swiftness Engineer instead? Or even trade the role in for yet another Elementalist to hold points instead of (de)cap and leave?
I’ve asked this question once before, but I’ll ask it again. If a Ranger’s pet could (de)cap a point and be sent across the map to do so, would the Ranger replace the Thief in the meta?
I think I’m starting to feel like a poor, little Doorbreaker in Stronghold. Run from spawn to the outer gate. Blow up gate. Run to the inner gate. Blow up gate. Run to the enemy Lord. Die.
All while being chased and slaughtered by everyone else.
Thank you Op.
+1’ing a fight is a roll already fulfilled by rangers pet’s, Minions, and other add on npc’s.
+1ing is a perfectly effective strategy. That’s why you see so many teams taking a thief, because the strategy gets results and Thief does it well.
The main role a thief plays currently is using it’s mobility to +1 or decap. It may not be the role everyone likes to play, but it’s what the meta build is good at.
That’s like saying bench-warming is a role.
“Thief, see that node? No one’s there, it’s getting cold. Go there and keep it warm.”
When we’re talking about the Thief role, we’re actually talking about something more than just bench-warming.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
If you think that a thief shouldn’t be +1 a fight, you are new to the game. This is part of my problem with thieves. They literally have no clue how to contribute to a team and are the biggest reason for the loss.
Yes, your role is to +1 a fight. It is much broader than that though as well. Know when to fight, when to distract, and when to decap.
If you think that a thief shouldn’t be +1 a fight, you are new to the game. This is part of my problem with thieves. They literally have no clue how to contribute to a team and are the biggest reason for the loss.
Yes, your role is to +1 a fight. It is much broader than that though as well. Know when to fight, when to distract, and when to decap.
dd ele can +1 just as good as thief atm and has way better dmg, cc and survival
[Teef] guild :>
Yes, your role is to +1 a fight. It is much broader than that though as well. Know when to fight, when to distract, and when to decap.
Its still just a +1 role. You either +1 a fight, +1 an objective (such as animals on forest) or +1 a non-contested point to decap. I watched the EU tourny’s and that what thieves did, sure they were on the team but when it came to their main role in the team it was bouncing from point to point to decap and +1 a fight when an enemy got low or they would get focused and melted.
Thief should have more than that to choose from, we may be good at this role but its the only role and its stale as kitten.
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
It’s like….
Being someone’s kitten. (No ANet, I meant a female dog, not a kitten).
This is part of my problem with thieves. They literally have no clue how to contribute to a team and are the biggest reason for the loss.
I think that is pretty much the entire issue in a nutshell. With the tools the Thief currently has available, how does it contribute to the team more than another profession could?
How does a bicycle contribute to getting an astronaut to the moon?
By him riding it to the launch pad where the rocketship is waiting. And even then, a car is more effective. But I would be willing to bet that the bicycle would much prefer to have some rockets and wings attached to it instead.
What’s this ‘plus 1’ mean anyway? Asking for a friend. :p
What’s this ‘plus 1’ mean anyway? Asking for a friend. :p
Engaging a fight that was already at even numbers.
You make a 1v1 into a 2v1. Or a 2v2 into a 3v2. Etc.
In other words, you always join a fight to give your team the advantage in numbers. You never join a fight to make it even. And you certainly never join a fight where you will be outnumbered.
You played a thief and are upset that your best role is adding pressure for your distracting buddies? Think about how thief has worked in previous games. What do you expect? It IS a role, whether you like the role or not. If you expect to expand to other roles, you’d simply have to do so in such a way that reduces the value of the thief’s mobility and +1 capabilities (diversity, not removing it).
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
You played a thief and are upset that your best role is adding pressure for your distracting buddies? Think about how thief has worked in previous games. What do you expect? It IS a role, whether you like the role or not. If you expect to expand to other roles, you’d simply have to do so in such a way that reduces the value of the thief’s mobility and +1 capabilities (diversity, not removing it).
Or re-roll. Forgot that one.
You played a thief and are upset that your best role is adding pressure for your distracting buddies? Think about how thief has worked in previous games. What do you expect? It IS a role, whether you like the role or not.
Ok, let’s think of it this way…
The original Legend of Zelda. At the very beginning of the game, you are given a wooden sword. Now, you advance through the game and find new, more powerful swords.
Now, let’s say that at the beginning of the game, you were given the choice between the wooden sword and the most powerful sword in the game. What is the role of the wooden sword? What is its purpose? Why would you choose it?
Any profession can add pressure. That’s not a Thief role.
Any profession can (de)cap a point. That’s not a Thief role.
Any profession can +1 a fight. That’s not a Thief role.
A true role is something that a given “class” is among the best at that contributes to the team’s goal.
Thieves are great at hiding and running away. But that doesn’t help the team accomplish its goal.
Thieves are great at dying. That doesn’t help the team accomplish its goal.
Let’s go back to another classic game: Dungeons and Dragons. You’d better have a healer to actively keep your party alive. You’d better have Rogue to find traps. You’d better have a tank to absorb damage. Every class can do one thing great or enough things good enough to get them through any given situation.
I would assume that the Thief in GW2 would find its main role as an assassin. A “glass cannon” roamer that can strike down a single target quickly and effectively, especially if catching the target unaware.
Unfortunately, the Thief is too much “glass” with a “cannon” that is relatively weak when compared with those of other professions. When a Thief can quickly burst anyone down except a full bunker build, that is when the Thief will truly have a role to play. Until then, it’s simply doing “chores,” not taking on roles that are suited for it.
Right now, the only thing a Thief does is stop the bleeding during a match. It’s not a nurse, it’s not a healer. The Thief has taken upon the role of “Band-Aid.”
(edited by Kageseigi.2150)
Okay, being one of the highest unexpected (at least in terms of D/P) or relatively unpredictable burst is a role. Not all “roles” have to be tanky and super self sufficient to be a “role”. Unfortunately, Mobility and objective completion IS a role and team beneficial and goal oriented. Toker basically carried WTS to the win. It is a role, you just don’t seem to like or agree with that role.
To sum it up:
- Mobile objective executer
- Unexpected Spike team fight winner (including stealth stomps when necessary)
This is a generalized role D/P thieves fill and yes, they contribute HUGELY to a team, hence why they’re still ran in WTS. The simple matter is Thief is entirely build around a role you don’t seem to agree with. So wait for Daredevil, and hope it brings back the melee stealth fighter who can go toe-to-toe, or reroll…
It’s insane to be upset that the thief fills the mobile objective and team spiker role… I can’t imagine what you even thought it’d do… Like you example of a rogue “finding traps”, being the team unexpecter Spiker (aka Assassin) is a role that has been around for ages.
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Okay, being one of the highest unexpected (at least in terms of D/P) or relatively unpredictable burst is a role. Not all “roles” have to be tanky and super self sufficient to be a “role”. Unfortunately, Mobility and objective completion IS a role and team beneficial and goal oriented. Toker basically carried WTS to the win. It is a role, you just don’t seem to like or agree with that role.
To sum it up:
- Mobile objective executer
- Unexpected Spike team fight winner (including stealth stomps when necessary)This is a generalized role D/P thieves fill and yes, they contribute HUGELY to a team, hence why they’re still ran in WTS. The simple matter is Thief is entirely build around a role you don’t seem to agree with. So wait for Daredevil, and hope it brings back the melee stealth fighter who can go toe-to-toe, or reroll…
It’s insane to be upset that the thief fills the mobile objective and team spiker role… I can’t imagine what you even thought it’d do… Like you example of a rogue “finding traps”, being the team unexpecter Spiker (aka Assassin) is a role that has been around for ages.
It’s partially the fact that the other builds were nerfed while the one that was already performing the best got buffed (D/P). Even if our elite spec is an evasive brawler, we already had it, and it was removed. Being pigeonholed into a specific setup is very frustrating, so even if we accept the premise that we are peripheral support in our role, we’re annoyed because we had the choice to be more in the past and that was eliminated.
Being unpredictable is a trait, not a role. Being an assassin means you are extremely lethal in single combat when you do catch an opponent unaware. Post-patch, the Thief is not lethal enough to take on the role of assassin.
In a team fight, other professions are much more lethal and durable than the current Thief. Can the Thief assist? Yes. That hardly makes it lethal.
As for (de)capping, it is a chore, not a role. It takes everyone the same amount of time to do. The Thief just has one skill that allows it to get there a little faster. It is mop-up duty. Does it have to be done? Yes. Does that make the Thief so powerful? Not at all. It’s putting lipstick on a pig. Other professions can actually hold points or contest them.
Yes, you can point to one of the greatest players in the game. Whatever he may do does not make the Thief any more lethal than it is. And that is really the point of the original post. The current Thief is inferior in a team fight compared to other professions including +1 engagements.
Decapping is an absolute non-combat task in a combat-centric game. It’s the equivalent of having a new profession called the Hacker whose “role” is to sit in spawn and cause the other team to lag and be disconnected.
That is the state of the Thief right now. Performing one “role” that a cowardly, unarmed NPC could do, and another that is much better left to many other peofessions.
Attaching yourself to your team’s bunker guard works. He will keep you both alive while holding the point. And he will survive on his own when you have to stealth for a while to heal. It’s like being a parasite. Just find an experienced bunker guard and hold onto him. It’s so sad it’s funny.
You know, I don’t think they mind this +1’ing and de-capping:
yeah except he forgot to mention that mes has way more survival and dmg than thieves and is actually a threat, meanwhile thieves are a joke as far as combat goes
[Teef] guild :>
Well +1 role looks really a lot like a MOBA roaming ganker. It IS a role really :p
Well +1 role looks really a lot like a MOBA roaming ganker. It IS a role really :p
yeah except roamers in moba can 1v1 and even 1v3 (depending how well fed they are)….. thieves on other hand….
[Teef] guild :>
Well +1 role looks really a lot like a MOBA roaming ganker. It IS a role really :p
yeah except roamers in moba can 1v1 and even 1v3 (depending how well fed they are)….. thieves on other hand….
^
Well +1 role looks really a lot like a MOBA roaming ganker. It IS a role really :p
yeah except roamers in moba can 1v1 and even 1v3 (depending how well fed they are)….. thieves on other hand….
Not all. Support roamers do it at like level 1 and can only gank by helping a lane in an unexpected way.
Well +1 role looks really a lot like a MOBA roaming ganker. It IS a role really :p
yeah except roamers in moba can 1v1 and even 1v3 (depending how well fed they are)….. thieves on other hand….
Not all. Support roamers do it at like level 1 and can only gank by helping a lane in an unexpected way.
you are not srsly talking about roamer tanks in thread about thieves? is this a joke?
[Teef] guild :>
Well +1 role looks really a lot like a MOBA roaming ganker. It IS a role really :p
yeah except roamers in moba can 1v1 and even 1v3 (depending how well fed they are)….. thieves on other hand….
Not all. Support roamers do it at like level 1 and can only gank by helping a lane in an unexpected way.
So what you’re saying is… we’re support roamers?
(Thief being the archetype for Assassin/Ninja/Rogue/Thief)
Well +1 role looks really a lot like a MOBA roaming ganker. It IS a role really :p
yeah except roamers in moba can 1v1 and even 1v3 (depending how well fed they are)….. thieves on other hand….
Not all. Support roamers do it at like level 1 and can only gank by helping a lane in an unexpected way.
Everything must be suport then.
The Dhuumfire thread
Well supports are heroes that can do much, but really not THAT much alone :p And they are usually the easiest to kill.
So yeah, thieves really look like roaming supports in MOBAs XD
Well supports are heroes that can do much, but really not THAT much alone :p And they are usually the easiest to kill.
So yeah, thieves really look like roaming supports in MOBAs XD
not true….. roaming supports (if they are played by good players) can kill enemies in 1v1
easiest to kill are squishy supports that babysit apc; you don’t roam on those tho
[Teef] guild :>
Why are you even arguing about another game?
I think GW2 might be pretty unique but it’s headed into a direction I really don’t like. That not because of my favourite class (and spec) having been nerfed into the ground but the recent and upcoming changes will be hard to undo and they will have to undo it – question is why do they implement it in the first place.
@Jana
That direction is MOBAs… Hence the talk about them.