Guild Wars 2

Since thief and the word buff often bring tears and anger I suppose this may be a waste. That being said I feel sword #2 needs a buff and a very specific one at that. Now many of us remember the days when sword #2 was a stun breaker. I do not want those days again. We may also remember the days when the infiltrator’s return portion of sword #2 had a extreme range. I do not want that back either. What I would like is the secondary portion of sword #2 (conditional removal) to be buffed.

So how should it be buffed?

Glad you asked. My proposal is that the second portion of sword #2 Infiltrator’s Return be allowed to remove 2 additional conditions at the cost of 2 initiative per condition removed. That is if you remove 3 conditions it would cost you 6 initiative.

Why is it needed?

Well as many of us know much of our damaging condition removal (burning poison bleeding) is tied to 3 skills and 2 trait. Hide in shadows, Shadow Return, and Signet of Agility are the skills. The issue with HiS is that it has a relatively long cd, does not remove torment, and pigeon holes your heal. Shadow Step is also one of our main stun breakers and only removes conditions on the return portion. The cd is 50 seconds untraited and only removed 3 conditions. SoA is good when you are surrounded by many players but is lack luster in solo play. Pain Response, and Shadow’s Embrace are the traits. The main issues with pain response are the cd (30 seconds), the health threshold 75% (given the small hp pool thief has playing with threshold skills is very difficult see last refuge), tier (20 point investment) and the fact it does not remove torment. Shadow’s Embrace has no real issues. It is a cheap investment and works well. That being said the only build that can truly maximize the condi management are stealth heavy builds. There in lies the rub.

S/P and S/D both tend to be played as evasive builds (despite the fact S/D does have access to stealth through CnD). In the case of S/P many players choose to play it with no stealth at all limiting condi burst management options. If sword #2 were to be buffed as I propose it would alleviate some of the risk from conditions with playing these builds but still would cost enough to make it something to debate using in a battle.

Why it won’t be OP?

The keep this short the cost. The initial Infiltrator’s Strike cost 3 initiative. If you were to be dotted up with 3+ condis it would cost a total of 9 initiative to remove 3 of them. That is 75% of the base bar. Heavy cost for a useful skill. The cost additionally means that a heavy opportunity cost arises in a situation where you want to run. S/D and S/P both have limited mobility compared to other thief specs often relying on Infiltrator’s Arrow to get around. The cost for IA is 6 initiative. So in some cases this would present the question whether run of fight given the heavy cost.

Why it is good for those who hate stealth?

Whether you think it is OP or not some people simply hate stealth (thieves included). This change would promote builds that do not heavily build into stealth but still want some form of defense vs condi burst. It would take some of the burden off stealth to be the catch all defensive tool and place it elsewhere. This would also not be a buff to stealth burst builds but evasive hopefully shifting some player away from shadow arts and opening up some builds.

Why I hope you will support this?

Many patches see thief either getting nerfed heavily or buffed in places we do not need to be buffed or want to be buffed. I think my proposed buff has a place. I feel given the cost and what it will be buffing it will not be “OP” but balanced and will buff sets that are not particular popular. I think a buff like this not linked to stealth but other defensive tools would lead to opening builds. It will likely not draw the anger of the community and would give thieves wary of leaving SA, D/P some options.

Thank you for reading & please show your support if you like my idea.

I think it would be problematic if infiltrator’s return costs 6 initiative. I think i would almost never use it again because this one skill alone drains 50% of my initiative, even if i don’t have conditions on me.

By the way, people are still crying about sword thieves being OP in the class balance subforum, i don’t think we’ll ever see any buffs.

Paulo.8459:

I think it would be problematic if infiltrator’s return costs 6 initiative. I think i would almost never use it again because this one skill alone drains 50% of my initiative, even if i don’t have conditions on me.

By the way, people are still crying about sword thieves being OP in the class balance subforum, i don’t think we’ll ever see any buffs.

It would be 6 initiative only if it removed 2 additional conditions which is a fair price for a buff like that.

As far as the class balance forums goes. Th reference is to Spvp and to the feline grace heavy evades point assaulter build. I have 2 comments on this. The first is there is some concern over that but in a group fight there is very little the thief can do. The second is whining about spvp is not a reason to stop a buff. There are 3 game modes and it is by far the least popular and can have the skills there split. Too much of the balance is based on Spvp and Spvp alone concerns and this would do very little to change what is going on. That being said condi management is not ok for non stealth builds.

Imagine you have 2 stacks of bleeding from a power specced opponent, 1 stack of vulnerability and maybe 4 seconds poison.
Would you like to waste 6 initiative on this?

Yeah, i completely agree with you, i didn’t want to say that i’m against a buff but that it will most likely not happen.

Paulo.8459:

Imagine you have 2 stacks of bleeding from a power specced opponent, 1 stack of vulnerability and maybe 4 seconds poison.
Would you like to waste 6 initiative on this?

Yeah, i completely agree with you, i didn’t want to say that i’m against a buff but that it will most likely not happen.

That is simple you would not use it. You would force ably gap yourself from you opponent in the first place in that situation as well so obviously you wouldn’t use it. That is just common sense. Like I said it creates a greater opportunity cost situation for thief. At the same time being logical is a factor. If they buff it someplace else a trait or something it will become a go to for stealth builds as well. I think that there will be obvious trade off but that the benefits outweighs the possible cons.

It is common sense you have other methods to avoid damage from a power build so if you aren’t being pressured you really wouldn’t use it.

BTW pain response regardless of the build would kick in once he got you to 75% eliminating any type of control you have over you condi management.

Something has to change. No one is coming up with good ideas and all I hear is whine everywhere. Balance comes with a cost.

Nice idea in spirit, way too clunky in execution.

As Paulo said, who wants to spend 6 init to drop low damage conditions/conditions that are soon expiring? You’ll also run into the situation where you suddenly lose access to IR because someone hit you with a condition – not a good thing.

Even discounting those above situations, 6 init is alot – you won’t have initiative for anything else. If there was some intuitive, smooth way to pick and choose when you spent additional init for condi removal it would be nice, but that just isn’t possible with the way the game is designed.

evilapprentice.6379:

Nice idea in spirit, way too clunky in execution.

As Paulo said, who wants to spend 6 init to drop low damage conditions/conditions that are soon expiring? You’ll also run into the situation where you suddenly lose access to IR because someone hit you with a condition – not a good thing.

Even discounting those above situations, 6 init is alot – you won’t have initiative for anything else. If there was some intuitive, smooth way to pick and choose when you spent additional init for condi removal it would be nice, but that just isn’t possible with the way the game is designed.

Well that isn’t true. It is 4 + the current cost and would change the way we deal with condi specs. I could say the same about shadowstep 50 seconds is a long cd to deal with 3 condi.

Let me break it down. We are really talking about 4 seconds. 4 seconds of initiative where you could have anywhere from 15 to 0 to start with. The return would still work at 2 but would remove just the one base condition. Depending on how you mange your initiative this would be the right buff.

Every assumption I have seen so far seems to deal with this from the perspective you have blown all you initiative in that case you were playing badly in the first place and you could still return at 2.

Instead of focusing on playing crappy imagine a non reliance on lyssa runes to deal with spikes. Or the actual counter play a change like this would add.

everyone and their mother runs sword in pvp atm, doubt any buffs will happen lol

Cynz.9437:

everyone and their mother runs sword in pvp atm, doubt any buffs will happen lol

Does that include WvW?

Cynz.9437:

everyone and their mother runs sword in pvp atm, doubt any buffs will happen lol

D/D + SB all the way! (least likely to get nerfed)

Maugetarr.6823:

Cynz.9437:

everyone and their mother runs sword in pvp atm, doubt any buffs will happen lol

D/D + SB all the way! (least likely to get nerfed)

….because they have already been nerfed? /nod

Nope. I don’t want variable costs for my skills. I have enough things to keep track of in combat as it is.

a doubtful idea,
well look from another view of your Point:
I Play with 12 INitattive s/p build (which alsready has high cost init. skills)
I wouldnt use it because of the Point of Managing INitiative wiseley and in high engage combat you could mistakenly activating that skill and wasting INit. on “low conditions” which will get instant punished by you Opponent.
I would prefer a Change on #2 sword but more into the direction of Transfer 1 condition to your Opponent ….. after all These nerfs. Maybe we get something good at the next Balance patch …. maybe … or not … or never.

it should remove 2 condi for 2 init. anything more is OP or Too costly.

This is a nerf hidden under the pretense of a buff. This proposal will successfully become an Initiative drain given that condition builds are everywhere. 6 initiatives = 6s of down time = not acceptable.

If I have some negligible conditions on me, it will effectively lock my out of Infiltrator’s Return only because the cost of using it will leave me with no Initiatives left to do anything productive. If ever that Anet applied this, I will never use it — maybe even abandon Sword altogether.

Infiltrator’s Strike was meant to be a gap closer. The condition removal is just a bonus, thus this skill should not be used for that purpose.

What Anet needs to do is expand our skill library with more utilities and more weapon skills. There shouldn’t be one weapon set per weapon; we should be able to pick a default set from several weapon sets for D/D, for example.

Trying to tweak, nerf, buff, etc any of the existing skills will only bring this balancing act going around in circles.

Take a look at the new healing skills. They introduced new functionality by leaving the existing skills alone. This is the way to do this. More new skills.

I don’t think 2 per condition removed would at all be balanced. We would be spending 50% of our resource, and what if I don’t want to waste the initiative clearing those conditions (short duration, gana wear off soon anyways). I wouldn’t mind it costing 1 per condition cleared, atleast it won’t destroy any chance at counter play just to clear a condition. If the 2nd part costed 0 initiative, +1 per condition removed (up to 2) I feel like it would bring sword far up from its overrated builds. They removed the stun break and now added a cast time, its lost almost everything with no compensation (same story with #3 on s/d).

Id rather them add a trait: clear a condition on signet use. this would allow people to drop HiS for SoM,
and : clear a condition when using a trick, which would allow thieves to drop HiS for withdraw + RfI.

Yes we all hate passives but what else can we do

The only “buff” (id Call it bugfix) sword 2 needs is inf return back to no casttime but disabled while stunned/dazed. It says you clean 1 condi..fear is a condi…
Oh…forgot bout that evil ss-stomping (only pistol offhand is allowed to safestomp!) ridiculous.