Guild Wars 2

bhagwad.4281:

Edit: Some here have suggested that BS (and other stealth skills) have a cooldown. I think that’s a reasonable compromise just like a warrior’s adrenaline skill.

the stealth idea was horrible throw it in the trash

the Backstab idea is intresting… id say go with backstab CD, compensate by incr it damage we shouldnt have to be full glass cannon and beg our enemies to be glass cannons for it to show decent damage

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

A backstab can hit a light armored class for 14k damage. So it’s just plain wrong to say that the damage is low. Let me know if you want screenshots.

Go ahead. Like I said, make an argument. Be sure to provide some trait and gear info though and not just damage numbers.

We’ve already established that it’s “light armored”. Unless you’re saying that light armored glass cannons are not viable in sPvP that is…

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

A backstab can hit a light armored class for 14k damage. So it’s just plain wrong to say that the damage is low. Let me know if you want screenshots.

Go ahead. Like I said, make an argument. Be sure to provide some trait and gear info though and not just damage numbers.

We’ve already established that it’s “light armored”. Unless you’re saying that light armored glass cannons are not viable in sPvP that is…

He’s not asking for the armor class. He’s trying to make the point that your claim is a straight up lie, because you simply cannot get your stats high enough for that damage on a single Backstab.
Maybe if you had Berserker’s in every last equipment slot, including weapons and trinkets, had 25 stacks of Might, 25 stacks of Bloodlust, and maybe some Vulnerability on your upleveled, undergeared target in WvW.

bhagwad.4281:

You can’t be serious right? I’ve seen a single BS in sPvP hit for 14k.

Really? Please show me how and when that’s happened after the Assassin’s Signet nerf. It ‘s literally impossible to go over 9k at this point, even running 30/30/x/x/x against full light armor upscaled level 1’s in WvW running 0 traited toughness/vit. I’m a level 80 thief running full exotic gear running power/precision/crit damage on every single item I own, including accessories and I’m fully equipped with superior runes of the scholar and divinity, and I crit for 7k max with assassin’s signet on other level 80’s in WvW. Your 14k is just a flat-out lie and a complete overstatement.

@Topic:
Honestly, the D/D BS build is actually a really weak one-trick-pony build focused around building lots of toughness and vit due to reveal.

I think the bigger issue revolves around the fact that the thief in itself is difficult to balance, and that the fixes might lay somewhere in the traits versus the skill itself. I’ve been playing a lot of WvW lately and noticed that my thief’s performance is just flat-out lackluster in its backstab damage.

While I’m all for causing classes to take a lot of skill (the reason why I played position-based BS nuke all-offense thief to begin with), the suggested idea in making BS remove stealth on block/miss is just unreasonable. Giving allies shadow refuge and having them attack doesn’t cause them to be revealed, so I don’t think it should apply to thieves, either.

Why not just give a t3 trait in the power line which prevents the revealed debuff from occurring? It’d settle all of the QQ about BS because it would force people into going glass cannon for high burst (something I think should be a requirement in the PvP setting tbh – I hate that full tank builds can deal just as much damage as GC’s, as it really subtracts from build viability and takes away from the skill required to play effectively), but it’d also cause non-GC builds to keep their current burst and instead have that extra utility/survivability for group situations.

DeceiverX.8361:

bhagwad.4281:

You can’t be serious right? I’ve seen a single BS in sPvP hit for 14k.

Really? Please show me how and when that’s happened after the Assassin’s Signet nerf. It ‘s literally impossible to go over 9k at this point, even running 30/30/x/x/x against full light armor upscaled level 1’s in WvW running 0 traited toughness/vit. I’m a level 80 thief running full exotic gear running power/precision/crit damage on every single item I own, including accessories and I’m fully equipped with superior runes of the scholar and divinity, and I crit for 7k max with assassin’s signet on other level 80’s in WvW. Your 14k is just a flat-out lie and a complete overstatement.

While I agree that a 14k Backstab crit in sPvP is highly unlikely (Did the math on it, using full Ascended zerker gear + Zerker orbs on weapons and armor + 25 Bloodlust + 25 Might + on kill food + 30/30/0/0/10 build against a target with no armour = 16.5k damage (Not accounting for % damage increases in traits) hitting over 9k is actually possible on upscaled targets. I’ve hit for a 10k backstab on an upscaled Elementalist (No signet usage, just popped into stealth and wham 1-shotted with a 10k hit)

bhagwad.4281:

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Did you knew that the warrior axe 3rd autoattack chain does as much damage as a backstab on the back? :p

stof.9341:

bhagwad.4281:

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Did you knew that the warrior axe 3rd autoattack chain does as much damage as a backstab on the back? :p

/looks

Backstab
-403 (front)
-806 (back)

Triple Chop
-(x3) 858

Sheesh.

No thanks. They didn’t make any kind of contact with anything so no.

For those who’re saying there’s no way backstab can hit for 14k, that’s nonsense. When I was running a GC mesmer, this happened to me. And I’m a r34 player – I know what’s reasonable damage and what isn’t. But this post isn’t about whether or not BS damage is OP, so let’s leave it at that.

Literally happened withing half a second down from 100% health. I no longer run this build, but seriously – it astonishes me that people who’re supposed to be familiar with the thief say it can never hit for that much.

Remember this is sPvP and everyone is fully ranked up.

you have to get the perfect situation to hit that hard and be full out GC yourself and as others have said, other classes can hit just as hard with less limitations.

Dasorine.1964:

you have to get the perfect situation to hit that hard and be full out GC yourself and as others have said, other classes can hit just as hard with less limitations.

No class can hit that hard without me seeing them coming a long way off.

Anyway, this is not about whether or not BS damage is high. That point has been done to death elsewhere. This is just for those who say this damage can never ever happen. Here’s another one with 10k damage. I didn’t even see the thief or know he was there.

We can discuss a lot of things about stealth mechanics, but please don’t say that this kind of damage is impossible or even rare in regular sPvP.

This kind of damage is likely the result of the “+20% damage on a target under 50% HP” trait. In a solo kill, this trait is equivalent to a simple +10% damage that many classes get, except it causes inflated damage values for the last few hits. It’s kind of a trait made to increase the backstab QQ on forums by 20% XD

I prefer much more the guaranteed crit on backstab trait because it makes the combo less RNG and thus more reliable.

bhagwad.4281:

I didn’t even see the thief or know he was there.

But thats the thing I don’t get, how do people not see it coming? If they run upto you and CND then you know its coming, likewise if they steal to stealth you should have seen them in the 900 radius that they need to be in to stealstep.

Dual.8953:

stof.9341:

bhagwad.4281:

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Did you knew that the warrior axe 3rd autoattack chain does as much damage as a backstab on the back? :p

/looks

Backstab
-403 (front)
-806 (back)

Triple Chop
-(x3) 858

Sheesh.

This is hilarious.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Triple_Chop
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab

I’d love to see what build you’re using to be honest. I have more attack, crit chance, and likely crit damage than you, yet you somehow dealt double my BS damage.

If you’re not running the 100% crit chance from stealth trait with only 35% crit chance, you’re not a backstab thief, sorry. You’re praying you get a lucky crit for huge burst 1/3 of the time.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’d love to see what build you’re using to be honest. I have more attack, crit chance, and likely crit damage than you, yet you somehow dealt double my BS damage.

If you’re not running the 100% crit chance from stealth trait with only 35% crit chance, you’re not a backstab thief, sorry. You’re praying you get a lucky crit for huge burst 1/3 of the time.

Thats a mesmer, hes referring to a thief that hit him.

Zikory.6871:

DeceiverX.8361:

I’d love to see what build you’re using to be honest. I have more attack, crit chance, and likely crit damage than you, yet you somehow dealt double my BS damage.

If you’re not running the 100% crit chance from stealth trait with only 35% crit chance, you’re not a backstab thief, sorry. You’re praying you get a lucky crit for huge burst 1/3 of the time.

Thats a mesmer, hes referring to a thief that hit him.

Was his armor repaired?

bhagwad.4281:

For those who’re saying there’s no way backstab can hit for 14k, that’s nonsense. When I was running a GC mesmer, this happened to me. And I’m a r34 player – I know what’s reasonable damage and what isn’t. But this post isn’t about whether or not BS damage is OP, so let’s leave it at that.

Literally happened withing half a second down from 100% health. I no longer run this build, but seriously – it astonishes me that people who’re supposed to be familiar with the thief say it can never hit for that much.

Remember this is sPvP and everyone is fully ranked up.

Couple things, your rank means nothing, stating your a r34 only means you have spent time in sPvP, it doesn’t adjust your stats in anyway or reflect your skill.

Also no one stated 14k was not possible, we were stating that back stab alone can not do 14k. Things like full bloodlust stacks, high stacks of might, and Vulnerability stacks, along with how the thief was traited (which your post doesn’t reflect) could possibly boost back stab to do more. Noting that a thief (by him self) can not stack 25 stacks of might and put high stacks Vulnerability on prier to the opener.

Sorry but your image doesn’t fully support your argument.

Daecollo.9578:

Zikory.6871:

DeceiverX.8361:

I’d love to see what build you’re using to be honest. I have more attack, crit chance, and likely crit damage than you, yet you somehow dealt double my BS damage.

If you’re not running the 100% crit chance from stealth trait with only 35% crit chance, you’re not a backstab thief, sorry. You’re praying you get a lucky crit for huge burst 1/3 of the time.

Thats a mesmer, hes referring to a thief that hit him.

Was his armor repaired?

I could be wrong but I don’t think you need to repair your armor in sPvP…

Zikory.6871:

bhagwad.4281:

For those who’re saying there’s no way backstab can hit for 14k, that’s nonsense. When I was running a GC mesmer, this happened to me. And I’m a r34 player – I know what’s reasonable damage and what isn’t. But this post isn’t about whether or not BS damage is OP, so let’s leave it at that.

Literally happened withing half a second down from 100% health. I no longer run this build, but seriously – it astonishes me that people who’re supposed to be familiar with the thief say it can never hit for that much.

Remember this is sPvP and everyone is fully ranked up.

Couple things, your rank means nothing, stating your a r34 only means you have spent time in sPvP, it doesn’t adjust your stats in anyway or reflect your skill.

Also no one stated 14k was not possible, we were stating that back stab alone can not do 14k. Things like full bloodlust stacks, high stacks of might, and Vulnerability stacks, along with how the thief was traited (which your post doesn’t reflect) could possibly boost back stab to do more. Noting that a thief (by him self) can not stack 25 stacks of might and put high stacks Vulnerability on prier to the opener.

Sorry but your image doesn’t fully support your argument.

I never wanted this to turn into a backstab damage thread. The fact is that it can easily do 5-6k and a skill that offers such damage potential should not be spammable with no costs.

Like I said, I want even ranged stealth attacks like Sneak Attack to come under this umbrella. It’s a bit ridiculous to see the shots coming and having the thief still stealthed and untargettable.

but there is lots of cost for all these attacks…

bhagwad.4281:

Zikory.6871:

bhagwad.4281:

For those who’re saying there’s no way backstab can hit for 14k, that’s nonsense. When I was running a GC mesmer, this happened to me. And I’m a r34 player – I know what’s reasonable damage and what isn’t. But this post isn’t about whether or not BS damage is OP, so let’s leave it at that.

Literally happened withing half a second down from 100% health. I no longer run this build, but seriously – it astonishes me that people who’re supposed to be familiar with the thief say it can never hit for that much.

Remember this is sPvP and everyone is fully ranked up.

Couple things, your rank means nothing, stating your a r34 only means you have spent time in sPvP, it doesn’t adjust your stats in anyway or reflect your skill.

Also no one stated 14k was not possible, we were stating that back stab alone can not do 14k. Things like full bloodlust stacks, high stacks of might, and Vulnerability stacks, along with how the thief was traited (which your post doesn’t reflect) could possibly boost back stab to do more. Noting that a thief (by him self) can not stack 25 stacks of might and put high stacks Vulnerability on prier to the opener.

Sorry but your image doesn’t fully support your argument.

I never wanted this to turn into a backstab damage thread. The fact is that it can easily do 5-6k and a skill that offers such damage potential should not be spammable with no costs.

Like I said, I want even ranged stealth attacks like Sneak Attack to come under this umbrella. It’s a bit ridiculous to see the shots coming and having the thief still stealthed and untargettable.

if you lose against full glass canon thiefs and cant kill them

you have no say in balance or what so ever

i dont care if you reply your rank 900 now delete my friend just delete

the only annoying thing with thief is the one who isnt glass cannon and keeps re stealthing and i uncatchable and can take good dmg

but seriously? that 14k glass cannon thief on a mesmer who is glass cannon PLUS is a moron…?

on a good player that dmg would be much less and the other would whoop the thief

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Oldgrimm.8521:

maybe we can discuss this further when stealth changes is in full application,

regardless, we cant apply stealth either when you dodge block and evade

I’m talking about coming out of stealth not going into it…

with a 3 seconds stealth mechanic, it will be stupid to come out of stealth on a block/miss.

When you stealth, you have to hit quickly and a lot of times you don’t have the time to go in a proper melee range so you hit 1 a couple of time, running towards your opponent.

It will be too easy to counter stealth.

You mean it would have to require the person to pay attention and time their stealth?

GOOD GOD WHAT HAS THIS WORLD COME TO…. I refuse to to see stealth become something that requires skill to use.

Gamblit.5041:

Heres some of my thoughts on this topic.

Beeing revealed vs Block: To a Thief means the end of his Stealth attacks untill next time he gets in to stealth. For a Player with Block it means they gain Immunity to stealth attacks, because every time a player have block buff, stealth attack will automaticly fail. – Block doesn’t have a long cooldown. It can be shared with other players, and reaplied with easy. So the question is – should Block have an Immunity to stealth attacks feature on it, when it is so easy to obtain ?

beeing revealed vs Miss : Would simply penalize Thieves for having a short range on their melee Stealth attacks, while still requiring to be positioned behind the target. It would also reduce thieves mobility in Stealth, by not alowing the use of heartseeker 450 Range. And since Shadowstepping to the target doesn’t automaticly put them behind the target , cathing up to the target and positioning yor self behind it, would be almost impossible.

beeing revealed vs Dodge - this is something that could be implanted in to the game. Dodge evades every attack, why should it be any different for Stealth attacks?

Aegis isn’t easy to obtain at all, at least not compared to stealth. Stealth attacks already bypass aegis, because you can just press backstab again if the first one is blocked. This isn’t considering special blocks like the Guardian’s heal which blocks everything for 2 (or was it 3) seconds, but then again the cooldown on that is pretty long. Sure you can block a whole ton if you use mace + focus + sheltered healing + retreat, but if backstab doesn’t reveal you when it is blocked, then you just made his entire build irrelevant because spamming 1 is easy.

The rest of your points I agree with though. Misses should not ever take you out of stealth because the range of Backstab is way too short.

bhagwad.4281:

I never wanted this to turn into a backstab damage thread. The fact is that it can easily do 5-6k and a skill that offers such damage potential should not be spammable with no costs.

Like I said, I want even ranged stealth attacks like Sneak Attack to come under this umbrella. It’s a bit ridiculous to see the shots coming and having the thief still stealthed and untargettable.

So what damage potential are we talking about here? You do a successful backstab, and hit for 6k (i can testify to this being normal damage, with 100% crit damage and hidden killer to ensure the crit, ~3100 power). Then you get the revealed buff for 3 seconds. Then you have to reapply stealth, reposition again, and try and land your backstab again. Let’s asume you rock like a beast, or let’s asume a more realistic situation, where your target needs to L2P and you manage to do all this successfully, multiple times in a row. Then you do 1 backstab, maybe 1 complete chain with the 1-key, another C&D and another backstab in, say, 7-8 seconds? Thats 6k from BS, another 4k from the chain, 2.5k from C&D and another 6k from your next BS. Thats 18,5k damage in 8 seconds… That really isn’t unmanageable for any class, even glass cannons (you need to know how to avoid damage as a GC, right?).

Now we remove the first backstab, because a lot of times you won’t be able to open with backstab on a target with something like aegis (omg guardians will be unkillable by BS thieves if you get your way, even though it’s hard enough as it is), or them just running away from you leaving you with too little time to catch up while in stealth. The second one is also very unlikely to hit if your target has the slightest idea of what they’re doing, because they will dodge/block/invulnerable your next BS. On top of this it’s actually quite easy to avoid just by using mobility skills which are hard to predict (for example, blink, flash or even GS 3 for a warrior can be detrimental to your positioning). Your damage will become laughable.

IMO you will completely ruin this spec by inserting something like this. Your talking about the need for skill, that need is already there (again, positioning) and will become more important after the stealth nerf. On the other hand, you will lower the need for skill of all classes fighting thieves a lot.

You can remove the passive aegis by shooting him once with a shortbow, then swapping weapons and doing the rest of the combo. Really difficult stuff right there. Besides, that’s 1 out of 8 possible classes.

Anyway, how does that combo even take 8 seconds?

0 seconds – Backstab
3 seconds – 1-auto-attack chain completed + CnD
3.5 seconds- Backstab

As I said – missing your attack shouldn’t take you out of stealth, but blocking should. Consider that backstab has a pretty short effective cooldown while most skills that give invulnerability or aegis have much, much longer ones.

Sunflowers.1729:

You can remove the passive aegis by shooting him once with a shortbow, then swapping weapons and doing the rest of the combo. Really difficult stuff right there. Besides, that’s 1 out of 8 possible classes.

Anyway, how does that combo even take 8 seconds?

0 seconds – Backstab
3 seconds – 1-auto-attack chain completed + CnD
3.5 seconds- Backstab

As I said – missing your attack shouldn’t take you out of stealth, but blocking should. Consider that backstab has a pretty short effective cooldown while most skills that give invulnerability or aegis have much, much longer ones.

To have a powerfull stealth you have to spend 30 trait points… it’s silly that a stupid block would break stealth. Regardless how short the stealth cooldown.

Daendur.2357:

To have a powerfull stealth you have to spend 30 trait points… it’s silly that a stupid block would break stealth. Regardless how short the stealth cooldown.

So you’re saying that to land backstab you need 30 points in Shadow Arts?

I think it’s silly that my 90 second cooldown virtue is negated by a thief being able to press #1 twice.

Omg man if somebody manage to place backstab on you in 0.5 seconds…. L2P (even some mobs do better)

Sunflowers.1729:

Daendur.2357:

To have a powerfull stealth you have to spend 30 trait points… it’s silly that a stupid block would break stealth. Regardless how short the stealth cooldown.

So you’re saying that to land backstab you need 30 points in Shadow Arts?

I think it’s silly that my 90 second cooldown virtue is negated by a thief being able to press #1 twice.

I’m not talking about backstab, i’m talking about stealth, since the whole thread is about break stealth on a stupid block or miss or evade …

Sunflowers.1729:

I think it’s silly that my 90 second cooldown virtue is negated by ANY CLASS USING ANY ATTACK EVER being able to press #1 twice.

/fix’d.
Seriously though, that’s more of a Guardian class issue than it is a Thief issue. I’m not sure why Virtue of Courage has a 90s cooldown for what is effectively a single target reactionary blind.

bhagwad.4281:

It’s a bit ridiculous to see the shots coming and having the thief still stealthed and untargettable.

Good point bro.
That is rediculous. It’s also rediculous that an Engineer can throw a glass of water at the ground that magically resses anyone it spashes near (including a recently downed Engineer, maychance.)
It’s completely ridiculous that a full-sized adult human could turn themselves into a cohesive ball of super-charged electrons and zip through the air at a target and discharge kinetic energy on impact (without simultaneously killing the Elementalist).

It’s a kittened video game and these are basic mechnics of the game.
LEARN.
ADAPT.
OVERCOME.

Why do people so vehemently resist this simple mantra?

Aervius.2016:

Why do people so vehemently resist this simple mantra?

Because everyone goes shatter….

Sunflowers.1729:

You can remove the passive aegis by shooting him once with a shortbow, then swapping weapons and doing the rest of the combo. Really difficult stuff right there. Besides, that’s 1 out of 8 possible classes.

Anyway, how does that combo even take 8 seconds?

0 seconds – Backstab
3 seconds – 1-auto-attack chain completed + CnD
3.5 seconds- Backstab

As I said – missing your attack shouldn’t take you out of stealth, but blocking should. Consider that backstab has a pretty short effective cooldown while most skills that give invulnerability or aegis have much, much longer ones.

First of all, any class can get aegis through runes, even though that might not be popular (which this proposal might change single handedly). Secondly, that was just an example of how easy it would become to completely ruin the opening game for any BS thief.

The difference between aegis completely ruining a stealth opener (in this case BS) and just ruining 1 move of any other class is huge. When I play another class, I can simply use the 1-key to remove aegis before I rain down hell. For the BS thief to really rain down hell, you need BS. For BS, you need stealth. Well, no need for more explaining here, difficult stuff right?

The reason those invulnerability and aegis moves should have longer cooldowns then BS, is not that difficult either I think?

We are one of the only classes that need to rely on using the auto-attack a lot for damage. Using your defensive utilities to block or evade the first 2 BS can very well decide the outcome of a battle against a thief. After the stealth nerf is implemented the thief won’t be able to run if this happens either. Which is a good thing, because that will actually promote skilled-play. Unlike this.

About your shortbow comment to remove aegis… Yeah, really difficult stuff… You can do that with dagger 4 as well. But that’s completely missing the point. Any BS build is based for a great deal on the element of surprise, during but also before the battle begins. Shooting them with your shortbow for a whopping 900 (IT’S OVER 900!!!!) damage is going to ruin that for you. Opening like this is simply saying ‘hey, run the other way because otherwise I will BS you and bake a pancake on my hotness afterwards’.

Daendur.2357:

Aervius.2016:

Why do people so vehemently resist this simple mantra?

Because everyone goes shatter….

If I had a womb, it would bare your child.

The problem with your argument is that you assume backstab instant-death build is the only thief build.

What if I play a more tanky, survivable build which also uses backstab? I’ll use D/P as an example because I play that build. Currently there is no way to avoid the backstab – if you aegis I will just press it again. You can run around and try to face me (which works, sometimes), but using a defensive move intended to block powerful 1-hit attacks doesn’t.

Your argument of ‘that passive aegis counters a burst D/D thief hard’ doesn’t work anymore. Yes it does counter that one build, but to use a quote from above, just learn, adapt, and overcome. Must you absolutely pull of the combo of instant death within 3 seconds of the fight starting?

Maybe it’s a sign that that build has a counter – just like how using a condition build against a necromancer is generally a bad idea? Dunno maybe I shouldn’t have put 10 bleeds on that necro, cause he sent them all back. Maybe I shouldn’t have tried to shatter on a thief as he just pressed blinding powder and negated the whole thing.

Also the rune that grants aegis is on activation of an elite skill. So unless he is lucky enough to have pressed it just before you went in, it’s not gonna be up.

Sunflowers.1729:

The problem with your argument is that you assume backstab instant-death build is the only thief build.

I don’t, and I play 0/30/30/10/0, BS, with HK instead of Exec.

Sunflowers.1729:

Your argument of ‘that passive aegis counters a burst D/D thief hard’ doesn’t work anymore. Yes it does counter that one build, but to use a quote from above, just learn, adapt, and overcome. Must you absolutely pull of the combo of instant death within 3 seconds of the fight starting?

Not pulling it off quickly will destroy said thief, yes, or at least so after the stealth patch. Ask any experienced D/D player, not being able to C&D out of stealth right after getting revealed will be a tremendous blow to D/D thief survivability and offensive capability as well (as you will not be able to position yourself to land BS a lot of times).

Not being able to attack zergs solo as we are now is a good thing in my opinion, so no rant about that. But this proposal right here will hammer us in 1v1 situations as well. Again, just run in the other direction, and the thief only has so much utility to catch up… All the while being visible right after the chase, getting stomped by w/e skills all other classes can spam at you.

Sunflowers.1729:

Maybe it’s a sign that that build has a counter

Come on man, try harder. Every build has a counter, as does the BS build without this farfetched nerf. If anything, the BS build has more counters then any other build (because it get’s hampered so much by missing just a few C&D’s or BS, and every class has ample ways to achieve this, again with the running). To be sure we’re in the same book here (not gonna say as much as same page), I’m talking about players with half a brain. Ganking newbies is a universal wvw thing.

The discussion is taking on a rather cynical form, so I’d like to end with an advice. Just wait out the stealth nerf, then suggest more nerves. It’s the way of (no)life…

Those screen shots prove the backstab damage thing, I’ll give you that, but I meant screen shots that would make a good argument for the change you’re suggesting. I don’t really feel like spending time testing, taking screen shots, etc. and if you don’t want to either, then let’s just agree to disagree.

Dual.8953:

/looks

Backstab
-403 (front)
-806 (back)

Triple Chop
-(x3) 858

Sheesh.

This is a good point in my opinion. One of the thief’s strengths is that they can do damage in single strikes while other classes, like the warrior, need multiple hits to deal damage. If thief unstealthed when they failed a sneak attack, using a single block attack or a one blind would be all it would take to nullify all the damage while doing the same to a warrior would only nullify one strike. So it kind of makes sense that you would need to use multiple defensive skills and abilities to dodge the stab. But in the end, you really need to look at the thief and all the other classes as a whole rather than a few skills.

bhagwad.4281:

I never wanted this to turn into a backstab damage thread. The fact is that it can easily do 5-6k and a skill that offers such damage potential should not be spammable with no costs.

Like I said, I want even ranged stealth attacks like Sneak Attack to come under this umbrella. It’s a bit ridiculous to see the shots coming and having the thief still stealthed and untargettable.

Sure, if the first shot of Sneak Attack does not hit, the player does not go out of stealth, however, it shoots 5 shots. Any shot that lands after that does bring the Thief out of stealth. You don’t get any extra shots back. If only 1 out of 5 shots lands, you lose stealth. 90% of the time I have not had Sneak Attack bring me out of stealth was either when the target is out of range, or if they were being blocked by terrain.

Gamblit.5041:

vs Miss : Would simply penalize Thieves for having a short range on their melee Stealth attacks, while still requiring to be positioned behind the target. It would also reduce thieves mobility in Stealth, by not alowing the use of heartseeker 450 Range. And since Shadowstepping to the target doesn’t automaticly put them behind the target , cathing up to the target and positioning yor self behind it, would be almost impossible.

If you support all other classes not getting melee abilities, which have the same range, on CD if they miss, because of positioning or because of blind, I would agree with you (your hundred blades missed because of being short range, root and long channel, no cool down).

As it is a thief can repeat their big attack every 3 seconds (faster than any other burst attack) after the upcoming changes, and spam it until it connects if their opponent properly countered them.

Let treat classes equally please. Thief should be punished for a missed and blocked attack like everyone else.

purpleskies.3274:

Gamblit.5041:

vs Miss : Would simply penalize Thieves for having a short range on their melee Stealth attacks, while still requiring to be positioned behind the target. It would also reduce thieves mobility in Stealth, by not alowing the use of heartseeker 450 Range. And since Shadowstepping to the target doesn’t automaticly put them behind the target , cathing up to the target and positioning yor self behind it, would be almost impossible.

If you support all other classes not getting melee abilities, which have the same range, on CD if they miss, because of positioning or because of blind, I would agree with you (your hundred blades missed because of being short range, root and long channel, no cool down).

As it is a thief can repeat their big attack every 3 seconds (faster than any other burst attack) after the upcoming changes, and spam it until it connects if their opponent properly countered them.

Let treat classes equally please. Thief should be punished for a missed and blocked attack like everyone else.

In that case using 2 big cooldown moves should lock all cooldown moves for other classes as initiative use does for thieves, they should also not be allowed to chain together any of the same defensive moves without a forced gap between them that will put them on cooldown without the effect if used and of course they need their health, defense and CC lowered.

Dasorine.1964:

In that case using 2 big cooldown moves should lock all cooldown moves for other classes as initiative use does for thieves, they should also not be allowed to chain together any of the same defensive moves without a forced gap between them that will put them on cooldown without the effect if used and of course they need their health, defense and CC lowered.

If you want to give the mesmer the ability to spam mirror blades repeatably like heart seeker from an initiative system, and give all long cool downs abilities the ability to come up in 5 seconds, you have yourself a deal!

Also thieves have more defenses than just stealth. Without stealth I can dodge constantly on my p/d thief and jump back if anyone gets close. Our heal is a very good dodge. With a bow I can basically be jumping away from someone the entire fight and kite them for ages. Not to mention blinds and venom which can be used for control and for defense. Combining these with stealth every 3 seconds which is more frequent access to a defensive than most classes and it can be stacked to 10 seconds, I find there is a rather decent amount of defense on my thief.

never said it was there only one and you seem to think initiative is unlimited which it is not.

If someone miss you he was just clumsy and you were lucky. But to evade or block you need to be aware of the incoming threat, I.E you have spotted the thief, so it makes perfect sense.

Barock.7183:

So in other words: having 1 block on your character means —-> immune to thief?

no it means the thief has to hit you first and actually think about when they want to stealth…. removing a block aint tough(in terms of aegis) and people should be rewarded for trying to counter something that is currently uncounterable.

Also stealth is SO readily available if someone blocks just cloak and dagger again, who cares. They wasted a cd (10-20sec) and u didnt usually. Initiative can be replenished so quickly I rarely even look at mine. My skills are all pretty much readily available as a thief unless im spamming something like an idiot and drain myself.

I think the OP’s idea is a fantastic one. It would cause thieves to actually think and be skilled to land huge combo hits instead of just spamming buttons and being lucky or eventually getting a hit.

“Punished for short melee range” good… so you have to actually use positioning

“Makes it hard cuz you also have to be behind ur target!” You mean u need timing to pull off combos?

“BUT GUYS STEALTH IS SO HARD TO GET INTO THIS WOULD BE A HUGE NERF” LOL

I mean come on… basically the complaints are people just saying they dont want to have to actually try or think to pull off Backstab combos

ninja.4139:

Those screen shots prove the backstab damage thing, I’ll give you that, but I meant screen shots that would make a good argument for the change you’re suggesting. I don’t really feel like spending time testing, taking screen shots, etc. and if you don’t want to either, then let’s just agree to disagree.

Dual.8953:

/looks

Backstab
-403 (front)
-806 (back)

Triple Chop
-(x3) 858

Sheesh.

This is a good point in my opinion. One of the thief’s strengths is that they can do damage in single strikes while other classes, like the warrior, need multiple hits to deal damage. If thief unstealthed when they failed a sneak attack, using a single block attack or a one blind would be all it would take to nullify all the damage while doing the same to a warrior would only nullify one strike. So it kind of makes sense that you would need to use multiple defensive skills and abilities to dodge the stab. But in the end, you really need to look at the thief and all the other classes as a whole rather than a few skills.

dont forget that the CRIT ratios (% dmg boosted by crits) is higher than that of triple chop from the axe. Therefor a critting backstab is worth MUCH more than all 3 hits of triple chop critting.

I’ve been backstabbed for 9000 before on a glassy build and i can guarantee you against the same build I’d never hit 3000 3000 3000 with triple chop.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

dont forget that the CRIT ratios (% dmg boosted by crits) is higher than that of triple chop from the axe. Therefor a critting backstab is worth MUCH more than all 3 hits of triple chop critting.

I’ve been backstabbed for 9000 before on a glassy build and i can guarantee you against the same build I’d never hit 3000 3000 3000 with triple chop.

How do you work that out then hmm? Smells like bad math to me

Rump Buffalo.2594:

dont forget that the CRIT ratios (% dmg boosted by crits) is higher than that of triple chop from the axe. Therefor a critting backstab is worth MUCH more than all 3 hits of triple chop critting.

I’ve been backstabbed for 9000 before on a glassy build and i can guarantee you against the same build I’d never hit 3000 3000 3000 with triple chop.

There’s no such thing as variable crit damage bonus per skill. The crit damage bonus is exactly and only what is written on your character sheet and the same for every attack.

stof.9341:

There’s no such thing as variable crit damage bonus per skill. The crit damage bonus is exactly and only what is written on your character sheet and the same for every attack.

If anything, warriors Axe would have a bonus since there’s a trait that gives 10% crit damage with axes…

Rump Buffalo.2594:

ninja.4139:

Those screen shots prove the backstab damage thing, I’ll give you that, but I meant screen shots that would make a good argument for the change you’re suggesting. I don’t really feel like spending time testing, taking screen shots, etc. and if you don’t want to either, then let’s just agree to disagree.

Dual.8953:

/looks

Backstab
-403 (front)
-806 (back)

Triple Chop
-(x3) 858

Sheesh.

This is a good point in my opinion. One of the thief’s strengths is that they can do damage in single strikes while other classes, like the warrior, need multiple hits to deal damage. If thief unstealthed when they failed a sneak attack, using a single block attack or a one blind would be all it would take to nullify all the damage while doing the same to a warrior would only nullify one strike. So it kind of makes sense that you would need to use multiple defensive skills and abilities to dodge the stab. But in the end, you really need to look at the thief and all the other classes as a whole rather than a few skills.

dont forget that the CRIT ratios (% dmg boosted by crits) is higher than that of triple chop from the axe. Therefor a critting backstab is worth MUCH more than all 3 hits of triple chop critting.

I’ve been backstabbed for 9000 before on a glassy build and i can guarantee you against the same build I’d never hit 3000 3000 3000 with triple chop.

Percentages are multipliers. Multipliers have unchangable ratios. If the crit boost was additive it’d be a different story but not. So both skills have an equally scaled maximum damage potential. Now on that note Backstab does have a higher likelyhood of reaching it’s damage potential because it’s all in one shot but triple chop has a higher potential and is more readily accessible.

My mathematical proof is.
9•1.5= 13.5
(3•1.5)•3= 13.5