Guild Wars 2

To those who don’t know…that is pretty much 1 more second you have to wait to restart your backstab chain. So in the past you can do 4 backstabs in alil over 12 seconds, now you can only do 3.

Even before the nerf we are a bit inferior compared to Warriors in terms of damage, and at cost of half the natural HP. After the nerf this indirectly cut our DPS by at least 1/4th…seriously messed up. That along with critical haste being 50% less effective…I don’t know what our role is in dungeons anymore besides monkeying around dodging and hopping around looking ninja-ish.

And our daggers still don’t cleave whereas Warriors cleave with everything.

Please consider the effects in general PvE/Dungeons before nerfing something for WvW/PvP purposes.

The change does reduce backstab dps. But ONLY backstab dps; you’re total dps does not take a 1/4 hit.

Wing.5819:

The change does reduce backstab dps. But ONLY backstab dps; you’re total dps does not take a 1/4 hit.

True. But I think at melee range the backstab chain was the only reason we were even somewhat close to warrior dps (on single target). Let me know if there’s another alternative that came close to backstab spamming.

Don’t say condition damage because Warriors have a natural 1000+ condition damage from 30 points in Arms and 20+ might stacks (35 condi dmg per stack), they do nice condition damage without even trying.

I wasn’t disagreeing with your overall assessment, just clarifying. ;-)

Wing.5819:

I wasn’t disagreeing with your overall assessment, just clarifying. ;-)

I know. I just thought you had an alternate combo I may fall back on in these hard times. lol

Sad thing is, this change will probably not be reverted…and instead next month patch we will get something to make up for it like the dagger dmg +5% trait becomes +10%…or something silly.

The new nerf to thieves is really wrong with initiative being what it is. Initiative is suppose to not be timed, or use any energy now that they added time to stealth reveal it makes backstab by using cloak and dagger and steal pretty much useless. The time also makes it so if your in a group and you just used a stealth and attacked and someone used an area stealth you are the only one that stays visible. That is going to be terrible in any situation the idea of stealth is to be able to evade attacks because of lower aoe and armor. A thief has a huge disadvantage over all other professions none of their attacks with the exception of short bow hit more than one foe. Thieves need to be able to go back to the stealth it had and the other professions need to figure out how to deal with it instead of crying like little babies. Oh a thief came in and killed me waaaaaa waaaaaaaa waaaaaa. Initiative again is not suppose to be on a timer so please put it back to what it was or make backstab work as long as you click on a stealth skill.

Increase backstab damage in PvE (not WvW, not PvP) by 25% and maybe I’ll be somewhat satisfied.

Wing.5819:

The change does reduce backstab dps. But ONLY backstab dps; you’re total dps does not take a 1/4 hit.

It’s likely more than 1/4 hit. They’re taking a 3s chain and stretching it into a 4s chain, with maybe first AA attack added in the 1s gap (there is a pause between AA chains). Add the reduction of might stacks from “Hidden Assassin” and we’re easily looking at 25%+ loss in DPS. Not to talk about the survivability loss with now less healing in stealth, less condition removal, less aggro management.

Okamakiri.8746:

Wing.5819:

The change does reduce backstab dps. But ONLY backstab dps; you’re total dps does not take a 1/4 hit.

It’s likely more than 1/4 hit. They’re taking a 3s chain and stretching it into a 4s chain, with maybe first AA attack added in the 1s gap (there is a pause between AA chains). Add the reduction of might stacks from “Hidden Assassin” and we’re easily looking at 25%+ loss in DPS. Not to talk about the survivability loss with now less healing in stealth, less condition removal, less aggro management.

Right. I didn’t even think about the defensive aspect of it. The loss in damage alone already had me QQ’ing hard lol.

I play both Warrior and Thief a lot and I was already feeling that Warrior is just overall superior in damage dealing, with an inherent large hp pool to offset mistakes made. Thief comes close second in damage and only limited to certain situations (20% from executioner when <50%, behind the target at all times, single target only)…so it was already quite unfair to begin with…Now this…ugh.

Yeah I’m in the same boat. People already always prefer my warrior over the thief for dungeons. This was just another nail in the coffin.

This patch nerfed thieves so bad, that when I clicked Summon Thief Guild Elite, nothing happened. Then I got a mail saying the Thief Guild disbanded.

this is because the noobs contine to cry in pvp and the gms listen to them too NICE !(sorry for bad english)

I personally agree.

I feel like the nerf is definitely warranted in WvW and take no issue with it. What I do take issue with is nerfing PvE DPS for the sake of balance in another unrelated aspect of the game.

I guess I wouldn’t be as upset if strong DPS wasn’t one of the only things thieves can bring to a group. I certainly can admit that the blinds, smokescreens and stealth-rezzes are also useful — but everyone knows DPS is king.

I hate to make the comparison again (because it’s been beaten to death) but warriors do way more DPS and support in the form of banners, shouts heals, shout boons and so on.

Perhaps I’m out of line here, but I just don’t think the nerf is fair to us Thieves that really love PvE.

So… just nerfs and nothing to compensate for them in any way… again… wonderful…

-.-

hmm I’m at a loss here. I liked going with my thief to farm cof p1 instead of my warrior (you know mesm signet of inspiration etc…), but now with dps nerf to d/d in there, I’m out of arguments. I mean bringing warrior instead now especially with the banner love they got
“Banner of Defense skill: Increased toughness and vitality granted to allies from 90 at level 80 to 170.
Banner of Discipline skill: Increased precision granted to allies from 90 at level 80 to 170.
Banner of Strength skill: Increased power and condition damage granted to allies from 90 at level 80 to 170.
Banner of Tactics skill: Increased healing granted to allies from 90 at level 80 to 170.”

it also nerfs healing since it take more time between stealthed meaning Shadow Rejuvenation will be healing us less frequently.

Also i noticed that before the patch after CnD+BS i would wait 1 full outo attack rotation before using CnD again, now its non less then 2 rotation before CnD can be effectively used that’s double the time not just 1 sec. you don’t believe me? test it yourselves on a golem in the mists.

WHERE are the buffs and bug fixes!? Where’s the supposed mobility buff they mentioned? Again we get nerfs with nothing positive to give us. Nerfs that also cause more bugs as well apparently. Lovely.

The more I think about it the more I think this is an April Fool’s joke.
Maybe on April 1st there will be an “April Fools!” thread and reverts all the changes…
This nerf is just so unreasonable I’m going crazy.

Doggie.3184:

WHERE are the buffs and bug fixes!? Where’s the supposed mobility buff they mentioned? Again we get nerfs with nothing positive to give us. Nerfs that also cause more bugs as well apparently. Lovely.

they increased the radius of “unreachable” by 50% and gave it a visible area on effect.
if that tinny little circle is now 50% bigger than before.

how big was it before?! smaller than my asura’s shadow?

That was a most unfair and most unlogical nerf I’ve ever seen… :P Espescialy when they put such a thing after HALF YEAR of skilling as a thief! After half year its hard to change your habits fighting in pvp and REMEBER to wait 1 more seconds to not waste your ininciative AND DIE… ARENANET- WHAT WHERE YOU THINKING?! You could give even 5seconds reaveal but not now- after I and other ppl play this game for HALF YEAR. Give me a person who bring this “brilliant” idea and I will convince him that it was the worst nerf for thief and – what is worse- FOR PLAYERS SKILLS you could ever do…

Orpheus.7284:

The more I think about it the more I think this is an April Fool’s joke.
Maybe on April 1st there will be an “April Fools!” thread and reverts all the changes…
This nerf is just so unreasonable I’m going crazy.

I can only hope. The incompetence behind these changes is just unreal.

Wing.5819:

The change does reduce backstab dps. But ONLY backstab dps; you’re total dps does not take a 1/4 hit.

Technically, backstab is a dps loss, if you use C&D to gain stealth for it. It is a good burst but your dps suffers if you use it in a protracted fight.

and pvp heros make videos of themselves exploiting stealth and killing upleveled people in wvw/. then people cry about those videos.

Yep, it’s a nerf to the thieves potential damage output. And obviously not every backstab you do will land, which makes it even worse.

GL everyone with your newly minted D/D ele’s that i’m sure you’re beginning to level up

What I find “interesting” is that they nerfed stealth and ended up nerfing 20 other things (traits, auto attack chain rotations, damage output) and they did not change durations on traits or anything.

You can’t just blanket nerf stealth and then leave the entire shadow arts tree as-is. That makes zero sense. Every trait affected by on-stealth triggers has been nerfed to smithereens, as well as the critical haste trait/sigil of rage.

All because some of the little noobies in the community rage when they stand still in WvW and die to someone cloak and daggering them over and over again over the course of what…like 40 seconds? Really? You didn’t realize you were being stabbed for 40 seconds?

Anet buckled in and catered to these…well, we’ll just say low IQ people that have 2 APM with their keyboards. -_-

Try and CnD chain people that know what they’re doing and they will /laugh as you’re stuck in place by 5 people immob/CCing you and then you die.

Now they will laugh harder because you’re revealed for 4 seconds if you attack.

And surely this will continue, because more reveal time is not enough for some of you. Some people want you revealed period, but we know the real goal – delete the thief class entirely. Some of the people in the community will not stop their QQ until that occurs.

Oh wells. We all know the master plan here is to turn every thief into this:
http://i50.tinypic.com/2vn3ofb.jpg

The reason i mention the above picture is because that’s apparently the mobility anet promised us…right?

Shucks, you can’t spam Backstab to deal 12K damage any more?

Brb, rerolling.

Arganthium.5638:

Shucks, you can’t spam Backstab to deal 12K damage any more?

Brb, rerolling.

you ever could?

Dasorine.1964:

Arganthium.5638:

Shucks, you can’t spam Backstab to deal 12K damage any more?

Brb, rerolling.

you ever could?

Not sure about 12K, but I’ve seen more than one vid where a player would down a player after 2 Backstabs almost instantaneously after going into battle.

Straegen.2938:

Dasorine.1964:

Arganthium.5638:

Shucks, you can’t spam Backstab to deal 12K damage any more?

Brb, rerolling.

you ever could?

Now we can only do it 5 times every 30 seconds instead of 6. NERFED into oblivion! I am going to my OP Ranger… thanks Anet.

It’s actually longer than 4 second reveal if you wanna finish your second combo before CnD or interrupt your combo with the new crappy timing~ which just looks ugly.
everything feels so unorganized.

Meanwhile, in the land of warriors (Pre-Banner Buff) … 32K crits on a 6 second cooldown. This isn’t my picture, I saw it over in the warrior forum.

This is why dungeon groups with only warriors are so much more efficient than any other group. Between all their shouts, they can easily reach 25 stacks of might, all their auto attacks (including the mesmers) inflict vulnerability keeping the mob at constant 25% extra damage, and then the obvious time warp.

I think maybe the only reason I think the nerf to our PvE damage/viability is so unfair is because of stuff like this.

Bah, who knows.

As a PvE thief I am very much disliking this change, for several reasons that I’ll try to explain in my post.

For starters, like everyone already mentioned in this thread, this is a DPS decrease. Thieves in PvE already are inferior to warriors is almost every aspect, and now we get a more or less 25% DPS nerf.

Second, anyone that’s playing a thief will tell you that 3 seconds was EXACTLY the time it took from the moment your backstab to hit to get off a 3 skill autoattack rotation to the time the swing on Cloak and Dagger hit again. That combo felt really good and really fluid. It is now completely ruined. You have to get off 2 extra autoattacks, and often the third will kick in because it activated really fast after the second. Trying to use C&D reliably in the middle of your autoattack chain feels really clunky. In practice I’ll probably have to wait for 2 autoattack rotations now instead of the one. That means half the normal backstabs, half the might stacks, half the condition removal, half the time I don’t get my faced smashed in my a mob etc.

Please look into this ASAP. This isn’t a issue of stealth anymore, this is an issue of the viability of the thief. This is an issue of good design. This is an issue of things feeling RIGHT when you play.

Right now this feels absolutely horrible. I’d rather have a 1/2 damage nerf on backstab then this because numbers are numbers, but everything would at least feel the right. You need to make all the blocks fit and feel good, and THEN tweak the numbers. This is one of the design philosophies at Riot Games. You have a character feel good, make the skills fit together and have it be fun, then you tweak the numbers. Changing the Revealed Debuff to 4 from 3 seconds breaks EVERYTHING about the most commonly used thief combo.

I rarely post anything relating to balance, because I don’t know better, and numbers are just numbers. But when I see something that’s not just a number change, but a huge, glaring design flaw at it’s core then I have to speak up because I care about games being fun.

You’re kitten kittening right I’m unhappy – a poor PvE profession just got even worse. Obviously you’re too braindead to not notice it – Thieves dominate PvP, but were already sub-par in PvE as it was before they screwed up any chance of solid rotations. I can’t stress this enough – WE ARE NOT OVERPOWERED IN PVE. WE ARE SUB-PAR AND UNDESIRED. If you’re so blinded by pride and inflated self-worth that you can’t see a problem with that, then there is nothing you can provide to this discussion, and I can’t for the life of me imagine why you bothered posting at all. Oh, that’s right, to boost your vapid ego by rejoicing over a change that only affected PvE in the long run, meaning you’re still going to die to Thieves that you died to before. What a nerf for you!

PvP whining resulting in players getting shafted in a PvE environment where they are guilty of none of the crime: a pattern that has existed since every MMO ever. I’m disgusted that you advocate that garbage mentality.

Henrik.7560:

Auesis.7301:

Henrik.7560:

Cry more, you cant see how overpowered you are, you deserve it. Finally those poor defenseless classes who take 6k, 5k, 8k (and if manage to survive) go “what the heck” then they get another backstab and die.

This isn’t even a PvP discussion, and you’re bringing your incessant whining in to a place where it is not warranted.

You are the reason I hate the MMO community in general. Shoving your nose in areas of the game that you are clearly completely clueless about and pretending that you are even slightly knowledgeable. Your complaints are not even SLIGHTLY relevant here. Go cry in sPvP or WvW forums instead. People like YOU are the reason PvE elements fall to pieces.

You’re almost as bad as Columba. Please leave. Now.

You are the one who doesn’t see it. Thieves can’t do that sequence since their stealth is debuffed for once, and by the looks, you are unhappy that i am happy about being nerfed. Nah, im not sooking, im crying for joy that they got nerfed!!! You don’t understand how overpowered you thieves really are.
And yeah, I know you are a thief, any other class wouldn’t whine the way you did.
~Bye! I won’t be reading your next post because its just gonna contain more whining!

This dude is everything that’s wrong with the thief forums. Coming in here and making a post for the sake of drama alone -_-. I wish there was some sort of preventative measure to this kind of unproductive bull-crap.

Mixchimmer.7230:

Henrik.7560:

Auesis.7301:

Henrik.7560:

Cry more, you cant see how overpowered you are, you deserve it. Finally those poor defenseless classes who take 6k, 5k, 8k (and if manage to survive) go “what the heck” then they get another backstab and die.

This isn’t even a PvP discussion, and you’re bringing your incessant whining in to a place where it is not warranted.

You are the reason I hate the MMO community in general. Shoving your nose in areas of the game that you are clearly completely clueless about and pretending that you are even slightly knowledgeable. Your complaints are not even SLIGHTLY relevant here. Go cry in sPvP or WvW forums instead. People like YOU are the reason PvE elements fall to pieces.

You’re almost as bad as Columba. Please leave. Now.

You are the one who doesn’t see it. Thieves can’t do that sequence since their stealth is debuffed for once, and by the looks, you are unhappy that i am happy about being nerfed. Nah, im not sooking, im crying for joy that they got nerfed!!! You don’t understand how overpowered you thieves really are.
And yeah, I know you are a thief, any other class wouldn’t whine the way you did.
~Bye! I won’t be reading your next post because its just gonna contain more whining!

This dude is everything that’s wrong with the thief forums. Coming in here and making a post for the sake of drama alone -_-. I wish there was some sort of preventative measure to this kind of unproductive bull-crap.

Definitely need subforums for PvE/PvP, like guru. Prevents that type of garbage.

Henrik.7560:

Auesis.7301:

Henrik.7560:

Cry more, you cant see how overpowered you are, you deserve it. Finally those poor defenseless classes who take 6k, 5k, 8k (and if manage to survive) go “what the heck” then they get another backstab and die.

This isn’t even a PvP discussion, and you’re bringing your incessant whining in to a place where it is not warranted.

You are the reason I hate the MMO community in general. Shoving your nose in areas of the game that you are clearly completely clueless about and pretending that you are even slightly knowledgeable. Your complaints are not even SLIGHTLY relevant here. Go cry in sPvP or WvW forums instead. People like YOU are the reason PvE elements fall to pieces.

You’re almost as bad as Columba. Please leave. Now.

You are the one who doesn’t see it. Thieves can’t do that sequence since their stealth is debuffed for once, and by the looks, you are unhappy that i am happy about being nerfed. Nah, im not sooking, im crying for joy that they got nerfed!!! You don’t understand how overpowered you thieves really are.
And yeah, I know you are a thief, any other class wouldn’t whine the way you did.
~Bye! I won’t be reading your next post because its just gonna contain more whining!

This changes nothing in pvp. You have no idea what you are talking about. This nerf effects pve far more than anything.

Vargs.6234:

Henrik.7560:

Auesis.7301:

Henrik.7560:

Cry more, you cant see how overpowered you are, you deserve it. Finally those poor defenseless classes who take 6k, 5k, 8k (and if manage to survive) go “what the heck” then they get another backstab and die.

This isn’t even a PvP discussion, and you’re bringing your incessant whining in to a place where it is not warranted.

You are the reason I hate the MMO community in general. Shoving your nose in areas of the game that you are clearly completely clueless about and pretending that you are even slightly knowledgeable. Your complaints are not even SLIGHTLY relevant here. Go cry in sPvP or WvW forums instead. People like YOU are the reason PvE elements fall to pieces.

You’re almost as bad as Columba. Please leave. Now.

You are the one who doesn’t see it. Thieves can’t do that sequence since their stealth is debuffed for once, and by the looks, you are unhappy that i am happy about being nerfed. Nah, im not sooking, im crying for joy that they got nerfed!!! You don’t understand how overpowered you thieves really are.
And yeah, I know you are a thief, any other class wouldn’t whine the way you did.
~Bye! I won’t be reading your next post because its just gonna contain more whining!

This changes nothing in pvp. You have no idea what you are talking about. This nerf effects pve far more than anything.

That was the intent as has been most nerfs for thieves. Devs don’t really want to fix the problem with thieves in WvW so they throw in a nerf that effects PvE more. Same with some of mesmer nerfs. They did not fix issue just appeased the whining/clueless masses. Devs will not fix OP nature of specs/class they actually play.

I recently went into PvP to see how I did against 1 v 2s. Usually, I can handle that pressure since I know that I can get out of the situation when things get hairy. With the buff, everything felt so out of place and combos felt completely wrong. I run p/d and I noticed that I can’t keep that constant pressure on opponents as well as I did before. Since I got used to 3 seconds revealed, I ended up blowing a lot of initiatives whenever I tried CnD and even caltrops couldn’t help me keep the bleed stacks up.

As for PvE…… well, thieves weren’t as desired for dungeon runs for dps before, and now… :l

For all the people who QQ-ed about thieves being OP, why don’t you take the time to play the thief and get to know the kitten class before you kitten.

Mixchimmer.7230:

Meanwhile, in the land of warriors (Pre-Banner Buff) … 32K crits on a 6 second cooldown. This isn’t my picture, I saw it over in the warrior forum.

This is why dungeon groups with only warriors are so much more efficient than any other group. Between all their shouts, they can easily reach 25 stacks of might, all their auto attacks (including the mesmers) inflict vulnerability keeping the mob at constant 25% extra damage, and then the obvious time warp.

I think maybe the only reason I think the nerf to our PvE damage/viability is so unfair is because of stuff like this.

Bah, who knows.

What da!? 32k Crit hit by aprox. 20k life? I wanna see a Thief doing that. ^^

Mixchimmer.7230:

Meanwhile, in the land of warriors (Pre-Banner Buff) … 32K crits on a 6 second cooldown. This isn’t my picture, I saw it over in the warrior forum.

This is why dungeon groups with only warriors are so much more efficient than any other group. Between all their shouts, they can easily reach 25 stacks of might, all their auto attacks (including the mesmers) inflict vulnerability keeping the mob at constant 25% extra damage, and then the obvious time warp.

I think maybe the only reason I think the nerf to our PvE damage/viability is so unfair is because of stuff like this.

Bah, who knows.

You do realize he has 25 stacks of might? Right?

You also realize that warriors versus most thieves is an easy kill for a thief? Right?

You do realize that 100b in SPVP is laughable? Right?

Please…

Thea Cherry.6327:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Meanwhile, in the land of warriors (Pre-Banner Buff) … 32K crits on a 6 second cooldown. This isn’t my picture, I saw it over in the warrior forum.

This is why dungeon groups with only warriors are so much more efficient than any other group. Between all their shouts, they can easily reach 25 stacks of might, all their auto attacks (including the mesmers) inflict vulnerability keeping the mob at constant 25% extra damage, and then the obvious time warp.

I think maybe the only reason I think the nerf to our PvE damage/viability is so unfair is because of stuff like this.

Bah, who knows.

What da!? 32k Crit hit by aprox. 20k life? I wanna see a Thief doing that. ^^

Not before warriors can chain spam stealth.

That one extra second in the champions face equals a dead thief, at least with our current health pool and toughness. We lost a ton of our damage in PvE, and in PvP it looks like they all want us to go super squishy backstabbers. That’s about the only vial build right now. It requires you to stealth one time and then burst the kitten out of the enemy. (CnD → Steal → Assassins Signet → Backstab → Heartseek to death). They pretty much killed our rotations, especially the P/D thieves rotation. Now they lost 33% of their bleed damage output, which is a lot since they didn’t deal that much damage before.

wookie.8934:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Meanwhile, in the land of warriors (Pre-Banner Buff) … 32K crits on a 6 second cooldown. This isn’t my picture, I saw it over in the warrior forum.

This is why dungeon groups with only warriors are so much more efficient than any other group. Between all their shouts, they can easily reach 25 stacks of might, all their auto attacks (including the mesmers) inflict vulnerability keeping the mob at constant 25% extra damage, and then the obvious time warp.

I think maybe the only reason I think the nerf to our PvE damage/viability is so unfair is because of stuff like this.

Bah, who knows.

You do realize he has 25 stacks of might? Right?

You also realize that warriors versus most thieves is an easy kill for a thief? Right?

You do realize that 100b in SPVP is laughable? Right?

Please…

You do realize that we’re talking about the PvE aspect right? Keep your PvP/WvW comments out because most of us don’t care how Warrior VS Thief goes in PvE. Point is when they nerf stuff like this for PvP/WvW, PvE should not suffer.

Orpheus.7284:

wookie.8934:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Meanwhile, in the land of warriors (Pre-Banner Buff) … 32K crits on a 6 second cooldown. This isn’t my picture, I saw it over in the warrior forum.

This is why dungeon groups with only warriors are so much more efficient than any other group. Between all their shouts, they can easily reach 25 stacks of might, all their auto attacks (including the mesmers) inflict vulnerability keeping the mob at constant 25% extra damage, and then the obvious time warp.

I think maybe the only reason I think the nerf to our PvE damage/viability is so unfair is because of stuff like this.

Bah, who knows.

You do realize he has 25 stacks of might? Right?

You also realize that warriors versus most thieves is an easy kill for a thief? Right?

You do realize that 100b in SPVP is laughable? Right?

Please…

You do realize that we’re talking about the PvE aspect right? Keep your PvP/WvW comments out because most of us don’t care how Warrior VS Thief goes in PvE. Point is when they nerf stuff like this for PvP/WvW, PvE should not suffer.

Meanwhile in the land of Mesmer, you can portal through the fire trap. How come I can’t do that on my thief. However, I can stealth my entire group in the raving asura fractal and bypass those stupid harpies. How come a warrior can’t do that! Stop kittening over a small nerf (it could’ve been worst). Go check the ranger forum if you want to feel better.

Wing.5819:

The change does reduce backstab dps. But ONLY backstab dps; you’re total dps does not take a 1/4 hit.

The whole point of D/D was to use Backstab, no one uses Leaping Death Blossom unless its a mob, so what they gonna do now? Spam heartseeker, we all know what happened the last time they did that.

wookie.8934:

You do realize he has 25 stacks of might? Right?

You also realize that warriors versus most thieves is an easy kill for a thief? Right?

You do realize that 100b in SPVP is laughable? Right?

Please…

You do realize that glass cannon warrior can actually stay in close range the whole time spamming 1 and 2 for that insane damage, right?

You realize when the thief does that he gets downed in 2 hits, right?

You realize thieves and warriors are not comparable in PvE, right? Like, at all?

You’re complaning about 100b in sPvP. It is laughable. But does that mean thieves can’t be viable in PvE, because warriors are crap in pvp? What kind of reasoning is that? Should we all just play warriors in PvE and thieves in pvp?

Warriors need a pvp buff, true. Not another PvE buff like this patch. It really does seem Anet wants us to play warriors in PvE only (and only warriors). The quickness nerf hit them more then any other class. I mean, even the prolonged duration is bad news for the warrior. It was already hard for them to burst something down with 100% increased speed, now that will be harder, and they will be vulnerable that much longer……………….

I got bored with my warrior the second I realized it’s just a farmcow in this game, no offense.

Sifu.6527:

Orpheus.7284:

wookie.8934:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Meanwhile, in the land of warriors (Pre-Banner Buff) … 32K crits on a 6 second cooldown. This isn’t my picture, I saw it over in the warrior forum.

This is why dungeon groups with only warriors are so much more efficient than any other group. Between all their shouts, they can easily reach 25 stacks of might, all their auto attacks (including the mesmers) inflict vulnerability keeping the mob at constant 25% extra damage, and then the obvious time warp.

I think maybe the only reason I think the nerf to our PvE damage/viability is so unfair is because of stuff like this.

Bah, who knows.

You do realize he has 25 stacks of might? Right?

You also realize that warriors versus most thieves is an easy kill for a thief? Right?

You do realize that 100b in SPVP is laughable? Right?

Please…

You do realize that we’re talking about the PvE aspect right? Keep your PvP/WvW comments out because most of us don’t care how Warrior VS Thief goes in PvE. Point is when they nerf stuff like this for PvP/WvW, PvE should not suffer.

Meanwhile in the land of Mesmer, you can portal through the fire trap. How come I can’t do that on my thief. However, I can stealth my entire group in the raving asura fractal and bypass those stupid harpies. How come a warrior can’t do that! Stop kittening over a small nerf (it could’ve been worst). Go check the ranger forum if you want to feel better.

Let’s do this over shall we? I understand every class has things they can do and can not do. We can come up with different scenarios all day. All classes however, do damage, and this is a damage nerf to Thieves in PvE that seemed unaccounted for by the balance team. This is not a ‘small’ nerf, it’s at least a 25% DPS reduction for most thief rotations whether you are P/D or D/D…and this is not “kittening”, it’s an attempt to get an answer from the balance team why they think a 25% dps nerf is fair for thieves.

I have a Ranger too, so no, I won’t feel better. The unreasonable Quickness nerf however, should be treated on a higher priority than this as it affects many more classes and perhaps destroyed a fun mechanic in the game.

Wing.5819:

The change does reduce backstab dps. But ONLY backstab dps; you’re total dps does not take a 1/4 hit.

Unless you were running P/D in which case the change is more like a 33% nerf to total dps… (max 8 bleed stacks from rotation instead of ~12)

: /

It’s not a 25% DPS nerf. It’s roughly a 15% DPS nerf for D/D, not so much a damage nerf as a CC nerf for S/D (who runs S/D in PvE?), and, well, yeah P/D just got kicked in the teeth really hard. It’s also a big sustain and utility nerf.

Even that said I would have rather taken a straight 15% DPS nerf in the teeth than gumming up all the timings that had flowed so smoothly before.

Ensign.2189:

(who runs S/D in PvE?)

I do (or did). I found it to be by far the best dungeon set in the game for a Thief. Now that the timing behind it is so awkward and unwieldy, I’m still experimenting.

Orpheus.7284:

Sifu.6527:

Orpheus.7284:

wookie.8934:

Mixchimmer.7230:

Meanwhile, in the land of warriors (Pre-Banner Buff) … 32K crits on a 6 second cooldown. This isn’t my picture, I saw it over in the warrior forum.

This is why dungeon groups with only warriors are so much more efficient than any other group. Between all their shouts, they can easily reach 25 stacks of might, all their auto attacks (including the mesmers) inflict vulnerability keeping the mob at constant 25% extra damage, and then the obvious time warp.

I think maybe the only reason I think the nerf to our PvE damage/viability is so unfair is because of stuff like this.

Bah, who knows.

You do realize he has 25 stacks of might? Right?

You also realize that warriors versus most thieves is an easy kill for a thief? Right?

You do realize that 100b in SPVP is laughable? Right?

Please…

You do realize that we’re talking about the PvE aspect right? Keep your PvP/WvW comments out because most of us don’t care how Warrior VS Thief goes in PvE. Point is when they nerf stuff like this for PvP/WvW, PvE should not suffer.

Meanwhile in the land of Mesmer, you can portal through the fire trap. How come I can’t do that on my thief. However, I can stealth my entire group in the raving asura fractal and bypass those stupid harpies. How come a warrior can’t do that! Stop kittening over a small nerf (it could’ve been worst). Go check the ranger forum if you want to feel better.

Let’s do this over shall we? I understand every class has things they can do and can not do. We can come up with different scenarios all day. All classes however, do damage, and this is a damage nerf to Thieves in PvE that seemed unaccounted for by the balance team. This is not a ‘small’ nerf, it’s at least a 25% DPS reduction for most thief rotations whether you are P/D or D/D…and this is not “kittening”, it’s an attempt to get an answer from the balance team why they think a 25% dps nerf is fair for thieves.

I have a Ranger too, so no, I won’t feel better. The unreasonable Quickness nerf however, should be treated on a higher priority than this as it affects many more classes and perhaps destroyed a fun mechanic in the game.

I like you Orpheus, not only are you not rude (Even in the face of rudeness directed at you) but you kinda took the words right out of my brain :P. Your explanation for why many PvE thieves are upset is right on point (at least in my opinion).

Oh, and as I side note, I’m very well aware that the warrior in the screenshot has 25 stacks of might, as I specifically mentioned it in the post — this is very obtainable with a group of all warriors because they all can use shouts — which I was pointing out to support the claim about there being a little inequity around PvE class balance.

And again, I realize everyone’s really passionate about telling people they suck on the internet, but a lot of us, myself included, are trying to discuss this from a PvE balance position only; I think the nerf is perfectly fair for PvP and WvW.

Orpheus brings up a good point when he says different classes can do different things in many different scenarios and everyone can do DPS — it’s just that this nerf from a PvE perspective only feels a bit unwarranted.

At least that’s where I’m coming from.

Poki.8235:

Second, anyone that’s playing a thief will tell you that 3 seconds was EXACTLY the time it took from the moment your backstab to hit to get off a 3 skill autoattack rotation to the time the swing on Cloak and Dagger hit again. That combo felt really good and really fluid. It is now completely ruined. You have to get off 2 extra autoattacks, and often the third will kick in because it activated really fast after the second. Trying to use C&D reliably in the middle of your autoattack chain feels really clunky. In practice I’ll probably have to wait for 2 autoattack rotations now instead of the one. That means half the normal backstabs, half the might stacks, half the condition removal, half the time I don’t get my faced smashed in my a mob etc.

Please look into this ASAP. This isn’t a issue of stealth anymore, this is an issue of the viability of the thief. This is an issue of good design. This is an issue of things feeling RIGHT when you play.

I rarely post anything relating to balance, because I don’t know better, and numbers are just numbers. But when I see something that’s not just a number change, but a huge, glaring design flaw at it’s core then I have to speak up because I care about games being fun.

Perfectly stated, you can C+D again now after the first 2 weak attacks of the aa rotation, but the only spot it makes any sense is now after 2 full aa rotations.