Guild Wars 2

This trait i thought was extremely sub par, it’s actually extremely strong. Pair it with the fact that s/d gets a free auto attack chain every time you sword hilt bash, also pistol gets 4 shots of +200 power with the sneak attack. I’m definitely going to be looking into more sword builds. Any rune and armor recommendations?

P.s.: good bye d/d Q.Q

Btw is condi thief now a lot more viable? :o

^ Extremely so. I have a feeling that P/D is going to be the dominant WvW meta soon, thanks to Krait and such.

bye bye d/d QQ! Hello s/p s/d everything else QQ ! xD

panicbutton.1053:

I’m still a little confused about why a few people think Revealed Training is a good trait. It’s something like a 8% damage boost, right? That literally a small 8% damage boost for a few seconds. That surely can’t be enough to call it a godsend for anything — if anything it makes our damage a little closer to what it was pre-patch?

I’m not attacking it, I just don’t see the promise in a 8% boost.

Well, it adds +200 power to sets that spend minimal time in stealth, +8% damage for sword is coupled well with the fact you can CnD then daze and auto attack, giving the high dps auto attack a pretty good boost. Not to mention the third auto attack of sword does cripple and lasts pretty long when you have +30% condi duration and you also get +300 power from the trait line too

i still cant see it in any light :/ like panic said not attacking here, but wouldnt panic strike be oodles upon oodles better for lets say a p/p setup? or even a s/x setup cause you know, free condi that roots them in place for a nice amount of time

Its only when you are revealed you get +200 so no p/p and only s/d unless you want to rely on utilities for stealth then u can s/p burdt

Don’t forget, that when you get revealed by ranger’s sic ‘em or a stealth trap. That’s a free +200 power boost for you.

I just came back from testing it to all holy hell. I’m convinced that it’s a useless trait coupled with the rest of the power lane. I even tried a might stacking S/D build and the killing time for S/D is very slow. I’m not out to make comparisons, but I always compare new builds to my own power p/d build. Maybe I’m more used to power P/D but investing into power for S/D cripples the hell out of S/D thieves. The extra power is literally 200-300 more damage.

Edit: You’re better off investing into critical strikes for S/D imo. More damage to be had through the critical strikes lane.

Yeah I never figured this trait could be all that great. Most 5-point minor traits add 10% DPS with a very forgiving conditional. I don’t see how and 8% increase that can’t even be maintained that much could be all that useful except for PvE D/D builds.

Sure, it might be better than many other Deadly Arts traits but given how crap most of them are, that’s hardly a feat.

So it seems this would only really benefit s/d and p/d. But taking it means you can’t take 30 in Shadow Arts and Trickery in WvW, and you can’t take 30 in Critical Strikes and Trickery in PvP. I’d prefer 30 in any of those trait lines than 30 in Deadly Arts — the 200 power just isn’t worth it.

mango.9267:

So it seems this would only really benefit s/d and p/d. But taking it means you can’t take 30 in Shadow Arts and Trickery in WvW, and you can’t take 30 in Critical Strikes and Trickery in PvP. I’d prefer 30 in any of those trait lines than 30 in Deadly Arts — the 200 power just isn’t worth it.

Why cant you take 6 SA and & Trickery in WvW? And why can’t you take 6CS and 6 Trickery in PvP?

6 Points DA with RT outdamage 6 Points CS with Executioner while the health of the enemy is over 50%.

Azure Prower.8701:

Don’t forget, that when you get revealed by ranger’s sic ‘em or a stealth trap. That’s a free +200 power boost for you.

Funny thing is I don’t think I have ever been revealed by either of these since they came out. No one wants to waste resources on buying the traps and rangers almost never bother with sic ’em.

Dahkeus.8243:

Azure Prower.8701:

Don’t forget, that when you get revealed by ranger’s sic ‘em or a stealth trap. That’s a free +200 power boost for you.

Funny thing is I don’t think I have ever been revealed by either of these since they came out. No one wants to waste resources on buying the traps and rangers almost never bother with sic ’em.

I’ve killed many d/p thieves with sic em on my ranger.

panicbutton.1053:

I’m still a little confused about why a few people think Revealed Training is a good trait. It’s something like a 8% damage boost, right? That literally a small 8% damage boost for a few seconds. That surely can’t be enough to call it a godsend for anything — if anything it makes our damage a little closer to what it was pre-patch?

I’m not attacking it, I just don’t see the promise in a 8% boost.

Exactly this. ;/ I wasn’t impressed by it in the least bit. Wish they’d of given us something with more functionality instead of a small, basic raw stat increase with a gimmick attached to it.

apocom.3172:

mango.9267:

So it seems this would only really benefit s/d and p/d. But taking it means you can’t take 30 in Shadow Arts and Trickery in WvW, and you can’t take 30 in Critical Strikes and Trickery in PvP. I’d prefer 30 in any of those trait lines than 30 in Deadly Arts — the 200 power just isn’t worth it.

Why cant you take 6 SA and & Trickery in WvW? And why can’t you take 6CS and 6 Trickery in PvP?

6 Points DA with RT outdamage 6 Points CS with Executioner while the health of the enemy is over 50%.

There aren’t enough points to take 6 DA, 6 SA, and 6 Trickery. I’d prefer 6 SA and 6 Trickery in WvW if I were playing p/d or s/d. Similarly, I’d prefer 6 CS and 6 Trickery in PvP because Revealed Training relies on being revealed. It won’t affect most backstabs, it won’t affect pistol whips, and it doesn’t boon strip/daze/grant aoe fury/might/swiftness.

this looks like it might work well with a pve thief for an extra 200 power when their cnd+bs is on reveal cd.

mango.9267:

apocom.3172:

mango.9267:

So it seems this would only really benefit s/d and p/d. But taking it means you can’t take 30 in Shadow Arts and Trickery in WvW, and you can’t take 30 in Critical Strikes and Trickery in PvP. I’d prefer 30 in any of those trait lines than 30 in Deadly Arts — the 200 power just isn’t worth it.

Why cant you take 6 SA and & Trickery in WvW? And why can’t you take 6CS and 6 Trickery in PvP?

6 Points DA with RT outdamage 6 Points CS with Executioner while the health of the enemy is over 50%.

There aren’t enough points to take 6 DA, 6 SA, and 6 Trickery. I’d prefer 6 SA and 6 Trickery in WvW if I were playing p/d or s/d. Similarly, I’d prefer 6 CS and 6 Trickery in PvP because Revealed Training relies on being revealed. It won’t affect most backstabs, it won’t affect pistol whips, and it doesn’t boon strip/daze/grant aoe fury/might/swiftness.

It affects pistolwhip if you use stealth with a different set or utilities though. I tried it a few times (don’t really like it, but used a few tactics to utilize it). D/D first set to get stealth or shadowrefuge for stealth.

Ps: Yes I ’m one of the few people how actually use SR offensively just for a stealth gain when out of initiatives and in need for a backstab or surprise attack.

>>Ps: Yes I ’m one of the few people how actually use SR offensively just for a stealth gain when out of initiatives and in need for a backstab or surprise attack.

And it also loads 8 stacks of might which is 280 (if traited for might on stealth) more power on that backstab or more condition damage. Resilience of shadows works great here as prior to that skill using SR could be a death sentence as the enemy would cleave and AOE the area. You can now better survive that initial period to get full stealth/might. SR is a great attack tool.

If one then has RT thats an extra 480 power after an SR along with that extra 10 percent damage if the enemy has a condition. It adds up.

While it “Only 8 percent more damage” that still more then a sigil of force (though not permanent) yet it can be coupled with a sigil of force.

Regardless of your standpoint, it’s hard to argue that the trait is worth investing 6 into the power lane. There is nothing useful in the power lane — and Revealed Training is not worth dropping 6 points just for an additional 8%.

Sure, you’ll do more damage investing into the power traits, but you’re looking at a massive cripple in survivability if you do so. I would like to believe otherwise, but I invite anyone to try and make a successful build that can work against skilled players.

Also keep in mind that sigil of force is WAY better than Revealed Training because sigil of force is up ALL of the time, and even adds to your opening moves from stealth. Revealed Training wont even work on your first backstab/opener, and it functions for a few seconds after stealth is broken. This is utterly useless combined with the rest of the power lane which generously funnels you into venom based utilities. You’re better off going Critical Strikes if damage is what you want…

>>There is nothing useful in the power lane — and Revealed Training is not worth dropping 6 points just for an additional 8%.

Nothing useful in the power lane?

I disagree entirely. 10 percent more damage for any opponent with a condition is very useful. As is poison on steal/mug/venomous strength.

I find “serpents touch” more useful then “keen Observer”. I find “lotus poison” more useful then “opportunist” . I find “exposed Weakness” more useful then “First strikes”

I find 300 more power useful. I find 30 percent more condition duration more useful.

If one looks at the GM trait sin the CS line , I see only one as really useful given Hidden killer can be replicated with the new sigil of intelligence.

Taking 6 in the power line does not preclude 6 in SA for survivability.

You are NOT spending 6 points just to get revealed training. This a misconception.

You are only spending 1 point unless it your claim that all of the other traits one gets before spending that last point and the extra condition duration and power one gets are all useless.

Does going down the CS line provide more raw damage? Most likely but there are builds that benefit far more from DA. Hybrids in particular benefit from DA.

I see your point, and it’s worth experimenting with. Without equating, it seems like the additional crit damage coupled with additional crit% down the CS lane on average does more damage than a raw power build. Were looking on at a ~50% static chance without additional traits, which means you will hit ~200%, half of the time. Add in some precision based foods with and you’ll be dripping in gold.

I’m struggling to remember which hybrid DA builds you’re referring too.

Update: Just did a quick test on CS versus DA lane. Using normal white attacks from a pistol which applies a weak bleed condition on Red Oozes. Stripped gear… both lanes traited to maximize damage, no other trait lanes were used.

6 in DA: Killed two oozes with 36 hits total = 25062 damage.
=696dps

6 in CS: Killed two oozes with 30 hits total = 23959 damage.
=798dps

>>I’m struggling to remember which hybrid DA builds you’re referring too.

I currently am using 30/10/30/0/0. This using all dire armor and trinkets and weapon sets of p/d and d/d. (the ten in CS line allows me to get might from signets.

It uses Runes of the Noble to stack might. One then picks and chooses foodstuffs based upon whether one solo roams or in a zerg. It really not focused on crit damage but the damage output from the raw attacks is increased substantially.

So just as example ,were I to go 0/0/30/10/30 condition damage pure my vital shot from the p/d weaponset is about half the damage . Heartseeker is about half from the d/d set.

Generally one can keep up 15 stacks of might without too much problem in such a build. Without food/stacks the base power is 1200+ 1200+ for each power and condition in my current setup. You then stack either corruption or bloodlust. Given you have the 30+ duration to conditions you can do well enough with your conditions wherein you do not have to eat condition duration food.

Thus around 500 is added to BOTH condition and power damage from the might stacks along with one of the two getting +250 more from stacks of corruption or bloodlust .

I use marjories chili which gives 50 more damage each to condition and power and adds 6 stacks of might every time I use my heal which was withdraw . That six stacks lasts until my next use of heal.

As to experimenting , that is why I play these games.

I am currently testing the concept of SOM used as heal on this build wherein leeching venoms “fills in” for my healing when I have used my SOM to get 11 might stacks. )

I loved GW1 but never even finished the game. I was just too busy tinkering and experimenting with builds. Some guys like the mouse twitching. I like breaking down builds from everything to traits to sigils to armor to runes to see what I can come up with.

Some work. Some do not. It can be expensive but its fun from my perspective even when I get slaughtered.

I’m seeing a possible use for this in my dire p/d build. I’m usually in stealth for a very short duration, so this would mean that every time I’m revealed my conditions do even more damage. Haven’t put the numbers together yet to see how much damage I’ll get, but I’m definitely going to try this one out! Maybe going away from 6 in SA if 6 in DA and Trickery can give me enough of a condition burst to kill people fast enough.

>>Haven’t put the numbers together yet to see how much damage I’ll get, but I’m definitely going to try this one out! Maybe going away from 6 in SA if 6 in DA and Trickery can give me enough of a condition burst to kill people fast enough.

Yes I have tried 6 in DA and 6 in trickery putting the rest in SA just to get the condition cleanse.

It doable but surviving is tricky. If you good at the dodges and the timing of Cnd this mitigated to an extent.

One trait I swear by is Improv. This can make a huge difference in a fight.

If you have SR on the utility bar along with Shadowstep then RFI and perhaps a venom you then have 3/5 types of skills Improv will recharge. (as in there a 60 percent change ONE of the three types will click and be available to use right away)

If anyone of those fire the battle can change in your favor quite quickly.

I might try that again once I work out which sigil sets work best with it. You have the offensive punch IMHO so I think focusing on defensive type sigils like energy/healing/purity might be the way to go.

panicbutton.1053:

I just came back from testing it to all holy hell. I’m convinced that it’s a useless trait coupled with the rest of the power lane. I even tried a might stacking S/D build and the killing time for S/D is very slow. I’m not out to make comparisons, but I always compare new builds to my own power p/d build. Maybe I’m more used to power P/D but investing into power for S/D cripples the hell out of S/D thieves. The extra power is literally 200-300 more damage.

Edit: You’re better off investing into critical strikes for S/D imo. More damage to be had through the critical strikes lane.

You run p/d power too!!!!!
It’s great to see another one of our rare kind!

babazhook.6805:

>>I’m struggling to remember which hybrid DA builds you’re referring too.

I currently am using 30/10/30/0/0. This using all dire armor and trinkets and weapon sets of p/d and d/d. (the ten in CS line allows me to get might from signets.

It uses Runes of the Noble to stack might. One then picks and chooses foodstuffs based upon whether one solo roams or in a zerg. It really not focused on crit damage but the damage output from the raw attacks is increased substantially.

So just as example ,were I to go 0/0/30/10/30 condition damage pure my vital shot from the p/d weaponset is about half the damage . Heartseeker is about half from the d/d set.

Generally one can keep up 15 stacks of might without too much problem in such a build. Without food/stacks the base power is 1200+ 1200+ for each power and condition in my current setup. You then stack either corruption or bloodlust. Given you have the 30+ duration to conditions you can do well enough with your conditions wherein you do not have to eat condition duration food.

Thus around 500 is added to BOTH condition and power damage from the might stacks along with one of the two getting +250 more from stacks of corruption or bloodlust .

I use marjories chili which gives 50 more damage each to condition and power and adds 6 stacks of might every time I use my heal which was withdraw . That six stacks lasts until my next use of heal.

As to experimenting , that is why I play these games.

I am currently testing the concept of SOM used as heal on this build wherein leeching venoms “fills in” for my healing when I have used my SOM to get 11 might stacks. )

I loved GW1 but never even finished the game. I was just too busy tinkering and experimenting with builds. Some guys like the mouse twitching. I like breaking down builds from everything to traits to sigils to armor to runes to see what I can come up with.

Some work. Some do not. It can be expensive but its fun from my perspective even when I get slaughtered.

I just was thinking about something similiar but with runes of strenght instead of aristocracy. Do you have some videos of your gameplay?

Just gave a 6/6/0/0/2 build a try (d/p sb) and my god I do a lot of damage! Landing a heartseeker when revealed and target below 25% hp is a guaranteed kill. Having an almost constant uptime on poison is a huge benefit for my team as well as thrill of the crime.

As a roamer this is amazing. I can jump in, land a hard hit and move on to close/far because I usually down someone in an instant. Love it in sPvP so far.

If you look at DA, you’ll find that the two innate bonuses are Power and Condition Duration. That being said, it mainly benefit condition builds. If you’re going to rely on damage from auto-attacks, then yes, you’re better off with CS trait line. However, for someone who uses stealth and conditions, mostly using P/D, will appreciate the bonus that Revealed Training offers. Couple this with 6 Trickery – Bewildering Ambush, you have yourself a very power set of condition applicator.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you look at DA, you’ll find that the two innate bonuses are Power and Condition Duration. That being said, it mainly benefit condition builds. If you’re going to rely on damage from auto-attacks, then yes, you’re better off with CS trait line. However, for someone who uses stealth and conditions, mostly using P/D, will appreciate the bonus that Revealed Training offers. Couple this with 6 Trickery – Bewildering Ambush, you have yourself a very power set of condition applicator.

Just played around with 6/0/2/0/6 P/D full dire build. Was pretty awesome how much damage is able to get. The condition burst is insane if coupled with might from venoms and use of two or more venoms. I am considering going for carrion instead of dire (more burst), but not sure if it’s worth losing all that toughness.. Awesome indeed

panicbutton.1053:

I’m still a little confused about why a few people think Revealed Training is a good trait. It’s something like a 8% damage boost, right? That literally a small 8% damage boost for a few seconds. That surely can’t be enough to call it a godsend for anything — if anything it makes our damage a little closer to what it was pre-patch?

I’m not attacking it, I just don’t see the promise in a 8% boost.

If an 8% damage boost is the difference between a dead target and a living one, then I take it.

ninjabiscuit.8052:

panicbutton.1053:

I’m still a little confused about why a few people think Revealed Training is a good trait. It’s something like a 8% damage boost, right? That literally a small 8% damage boost for a few seconds. That surely can’t be enough to call it a godsend for anything — if anything it makes our damage a little closer to what it was pre-patch?

I’m not attacking it, I just don’t see the promise in a 8% boost.

If an 8% damage boost is the difference between a dead target and a living one, then I take it.

Well (and people generally tend to forget this) you are traiting 300 power just to get that 8% damage boost. That in itself will up your damage by a decent amount even without the new GM trait.

ninjabiscuit.8052:

panicbutton.1053:

I’m still a little confused about why a few people think Revealed Training is a good trait. It’s something like a 8% damage boost, right? That literally a small 8% damage boost for a few seconds. That surely can’t be enough to call it a godsend for anything — if anything it makes our damage a little closer to what it was pre-patch?

I’m not attacking it, I just don’t see the promise in a 8% boost.

If an 8% damage boost is the difference between a dead target and a living one, then I take it.

But at what cost? Among executioner, shadow rejuvenation, sleight of hand, and revealed training, I would take any of the other three GM traits over revealed training.

mango.9267:

ninjabiscuit.8052:

panicbutton.1053:

I’m still a little confused about why a few people think Revealed Training is a good trait. It’s something like a 8% damage boost, right? That literally a small 8% damage boost for a few seconds. That surely can’t be enough to call it a godsend for anything — if anything it makes our damage a little closer to what it was pre-patch?

I’m not attacking it, I just don’t see the promise in a 8% boost.

If an 8% damage boost is the difference between a dead target and a living one, then I take it.

But at what cost? Among executioner, shadow rejuvenation, sleight of hand, and revealed training, I would take any of the other three GM traits over revealed training.

Executioner does nothing for stealth build at the first 50% health of your target.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is for trolls. It does not contribute to damage. Taking this will actually reduce your overall damage output.

Sleight of Hand was good, but no longer necessary. The new GM trait for Trickery is 1000 times better in practice since it actually sync with the condition damage you get from Trickery. Sleight of Hand should be in DA to benefit on the condition duration.

Revealed Training will always benefit a stealth build in terms of damage output.

In actuality, the cost you have to pay to take the first three GMs is actually greater than picking RT.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

mango.9267:

But at what cost? Among executioner, shadow rejuvenation, sleight of hand, and revealed training, I would take any of the other three GM traits over revealed training.

Executioner does nothing for stealth build at the first 50% health of your target.

Executioner is much more consistent, offers a much larger damage boost, and benefits all power builds. Revealed training only applies for 3-4 seconds and will hardly benefit stealthless builds.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is for trolls. It does not contribute to damage. Taking this will actually reduce your overall damage output.

And yet, just about every single WvW teef takes it. Obviously, the game isn’t just about who does more dps; the idea is that you need some defensive maneuvers as well. Traiting 30 into DA might mean you give up 30 in SA, which includes 300 toughness, healing power, condi removal, and regen in stealth.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sleight of Hand was good, but no longer necessary. The new GM trait for Trickery is 1000 times better in practice since it actually sync with the condition damage you get from Trickery. Sleight of Hand should be in DA to benefit on the condition duration.

Sleight of hand isn’t used to apply conditions. It reduces stealth recharge by 20% (which is a huge deal) and dazes the target. The new bewildering ambush just applies confusion, which isn’t great on power builds that would benefit from revealed training in the first place. That said, I’d still take sleight of hand over both revealed training and bewildering ambush.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In actuality, the cost you have to pay to take the first three GMs is actually greater than picking RT.

Executioner will benefit all power builds (as opposed to revealed training). Shadow Rejuvenation (SA in general) is crucial in WvW (as opposed to revealed training). And sleight of hand recharges steal, dazes, and helps with sustained dps /group support (as opposed to revealed training).

mango.9267:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

mango.9267:

But at what cost? Among executioner, shadow rejuvenation, sleight of hand, and revealed training, I would take any of the other three GM traits over revealed training.

Executioner does nothing for stealth build at the first 50% health of your target.

Executioner is much more consistent, offers a much larger damage boost, and benefits all power builds. Revealed training only applies for 3-4 seconds and will hardly benefit stealthless builds.

Executioner does nothing for stealth build at the first 50% health of your target.

How can you call that consistent?

Yes, RT doesn’t benefit stealthless build. One would think that this is rather obvious. I guess not to you.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is for trolls. It does not contribute to damage. Taking this will actually reduce your overall damage output.

And yet, just about every single WvW teef takes it. Obviously, the game isn’t just about who does more dps; the idea is that you need some defensive maneuvers as well. Traiting 30 into DA might mean you give up 30 in SA, which includes 300 toughness, healing power, condi removal, and regen in stealth.

Right, “every single WvW teef takes it” — amazing hyperbole.

Yeah, yeah, 300 toughness is nice and heal while in stealth. You’re free to spend all points into SA, but don’t expect that you would out damage someone who didn’t.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sleight of Hand was good, but no longer necessary. The new GM trait for Trickery is 1000 times better in practice since it actually sync with the condition damage you get from Trickery. Sleight of Hand should be in DA to benefit on the condition duration.

Sleight of hand isn’t used to apply conditions. It reduces stealth recharge by 20% (which is a huge deal) and dazes the target. The new bewildering ambush just applies confusion, which isn’t great on power builds that would benefit from revealed training in the first place. That said, I’d still take sleight of hand over both revealed training and bewildering ambush.

You mean, it reduces “STEAL” recharge? I get it.

But my point is about how B.Ambush sync naturally into the Trickery trait line. SoH can keep the reduced cooldown, but it’s more suited to be in the DA trait line.

If you don’t get what I’m suggesting, I’ll explain it slowly.
I…would…like…to…spec…for…both…SoH…and…BA — get it now?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In actuality, the cost you have to pay to take the first three GMs is actually greater than picking RT.

Executioner will benefit all power builds (as opposed to revealed training). Shadow Rejuvenation (SA in general) is crucial in WvW (as opposed to revealed training). And sleight of hand recharges steal, dazes, and helps with sustained dps /group support (as opposed to revealed training).

I’ve ran Executioner for a long time, same with SR, and SoH. I’ve used them all in many different situations that brought me to my conclusion about those traits.

You on the other hand, your conclusion is nothing but theoretical.

I’m not sure why you want to reply to me like I’m 5 years old. I addressed your objections without intimating anything about your intelligence. Sorry if you interpreted disagreement as personal offense.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Executioner does nothing for stealth build at the first 50% health of your target.

How can you call that consistent?

Yes, RT doesn’t benefit stealthless build. One would think that this is rather obvious. I guess not to you.

It’s consistent for two reasons. (1) because it applies regardless of being revealed and (2) because it works well for any power build (as opposed to stealth heavy builds). You can swap to shortbow and still reap the benefits of executioner, for example.

And yes, it’s obvious revealed training doesn’t benefit stealthless builds. That’s precisely WHY I’d prefer executioner — because it benefits more builds.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Right, “every single WvW teef takes it” — amazing hyperbole.

Yeah, yeah, 300 toughness is nice and heal while in stealth. You’re free to spend all points into SA, but don’t expect that you would out damage someone who didn’t.

I didn’t intend that to be hyperbolic. Many, many teefs take it. And I admit it doesn’t improve your damage output, but the idea is, again, that the game isn’t just about who does more damage. You need to consider survivability as well, and if I were playing WvW, I’d prefer not to give up the survivability that comes with SA.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You mean, it reduces “STEAL” recharge? I get it.

But my point is about how B.Ambush sync naturally into the Trickery trait line. SoH can keep the reduced cooldown, but it’s more suited to be in the DA trait line.

If you don’t get what I’m suggesting, I’ll explain it slowly.
I…would…like…to…spec…for…both…SoH…and…BA — get it now?

…thanks for adding periods between your words. I suddenly get it now (>_>). I agree that it’d be nice to have both BA and SoH, but this isn’t a discussion about what an ideal trait spread would look like. Given the actual trait spread, which traits would you take? In this case, the question is whether it’s better to take SoH or BA (not whether you can take both). And between the two, I’d take SoH for the reasons I’ve addressed.

Note also that BA doesn’t inherently “sync” with the trickery line better than SoH. Although trickery’s passive benefit is condition damage, the trait line benefits many power builds — thrill of the crime, bountiful theft, SoH. This is similar to how shatter mesmers have to spec 30 into illusions, which passively improves condition damage.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I’ve ran Executioner for a long time, same with SR, and SoH. I’ve used them all in many different situations that brought me to my conclusion about those traits.

You on the other hand, your conclusion is nothing but theoretical.

I didn’t make any assumptions about how (or whether you play), so I don’t know why you think my conclusions are theoretical. For the record, I’ve been testing revealed training in my builds (along with many of the other GM traits), but I find the tradeoff to be too great for my taste.

Revealed Training is only equal to around 5 and a half stacks of Might, for 3-4 seconds after a stealth attack. And does not apply to Condition Damage like Might does.
That doesn’t seem very impressive to me. The 5-point minor from Shadow Arts is a million times better.

mango.9267:

I’m not sure why you want to reply to me like I’m 5 years old. I addressed your objections without intimating anything about your intelligence. Sorry if you interpreted disagreement as personal offense.

It’s a habit developed over time when posting in this forum. People can quickly misunderstand your meaning if you don’t write it for 5 yr olds.

My apologies, it’s not personal.

It’s consistent for two reasons. (1) because it applies regardless of being revealed and (2) because it works well for any power build (as opposed to stealth heavy builds). You can swap to shortbow and still reap the benefits of executioner, for example.

1) Does it apply regardless of your target’s current HP? Exactly my point. It’s not as consistent as you thought it to be. I can also argue that RT applies regardless of your target being above or below 50% of health — but that will take us nowhere.

2) Again, you can swap to any weapon you want but Executioner will do nothing until you bring that target down to 50% health. RT on the other hand provides benefit that will ensure that your target will go down to 50% and beyond.

And yes, it’s obvious revealed training doesn’t benefit stealthless builds. That’s precisely WHY I’d prefer executioner — because it benefits more builds.

Executioner only benefits crit-based builds, that’s not very much. So I disagree with your notion that it benefits “more” builds.

I didn’t intend that to be hyperbolic. Many, many teefs take it.

Why change what you posted? You said “every single teef”, now only “many”?

And I admit it doesn’t improve your damage output, but the idea is, again, that the game isn’t just about who does more damage.

In the world of Thieves, it is all about who does more damage because you’ll want to put your target into a defensive on engagement.

And if you’re not doing damage as a Thief, when the whole profession revolves around that idea, then you’re trolling. Plain and simple.

You need to consider survivability as well, and if I were playing WvW, I’d prefer not to give up the survivability that comes with SA.

You have this limited view that Thief’s survivability relies on having 6pts into SA — time and time again this had been proven to be inaccurate.

…thanks for adding periods between your words. I suddenly get it now (>_>). I agree that it’d be nice to have both BA and SoH, but this isn’t a discussion about what an ideal trait spread would look like. Given the actual trait spread, which traits would you take? In this case, the question is whether it’s better to take SoH or BA (not whether you can take both). And between the two, I’d take SoH for the reasons I’ve addressed.

If that is your choice then you’re not taking advantage of the condition damage boost from having 6pts into Trickery. SoH was the best pick because honestly, there were no other choice. But now, BA is a best contender for best in slot.

Note also that BA doesn’t inherently “sync” with the trickery line better than SoH.

That statement is trolling. lol.

Although trickery’s passive benefit is condition damage, the trait line benefits many power builds — thrill of the crime, bountiful theft, SoH. This is similar to how shatter mesmers have to spec 30 into illusions, which passively improves condition damage.

How is Thrill of the Crime benefits from Condition Damage boost of Trickery? How about Bountiful Theft? SoH?

None of those benefits from having 6pts into Trickery other than having the ability to unlock them. BA on the other hand, benefits 100% from Trickery’s innate ability, both from reduced cooldown of Steal and Condition Damage.

I didn’t make any assumptions about how (or whether you play), so I don’t know why you think my conclusions are theoretical. For the record, I’ve been testing revealed training in my builds (along with many of the other GM traits), but I find the tradeoff to be too great for my taste.

You talk about “cost” and “tradeoff” without specifying what they are, thus your conclusion is nothing but theoretical. I’ve shown you that your “picks” are lacking in many ways, yet you have not written them off even though you can’t even support your reasoning why your picks are better that RT.

One example is how weak is your reasoning why you would pick 6pts into SA even after admitting that the cost of that choice results to a weaker damage output.

If it’s a personal preference, then say so. No need to post hyperbole and unsupported conclusions.

If you don’t like RT just because you don’t know how to use it, then say so. Someone here may even help you understand why RT is a better pick for their build.

Let’s not pretend that +300 condition damage from Trickery makes Bewildering Ambush some kind of must-have BIS pick. Confusion only has a 7.5% condi ratio in WvW: that investment of +300 only adds 22.5 per stack, or 112.5 damage for the whole Bewildering payload.

Someone is not a degenerate for looking at the 112.5 bonus damage, and deciding that they’d just assume take a Daze and another 5s off Steal’s CD. I run 30 Trickery as a Sword user, and I’ll go either way depending on who I am with.

Interceptor.2653:

Let’s not pretend that +300 condition damage from Trickery makes Bewildering Ambush some kind of must-have BIS pick. Confusion only has a 7.5% condi ratio in WvW: that investment of +300 only adds 22.5 per stack, or 112.5 damage for the whole Bewildering payload.

The thing about Confusion is that it deals more damage the more action your target takes. Coming from a Thief, who can constantly apply pressure, can force the target to take action.

If the target refuse to take action, then Confusion is way better than Daze because it can pacify the target for 6s instead of 1s.

Someone is not a degenerate for looking at the 112.5 bonus damage, and deciding that they’d just assume take a Daze and another 5s off Steal’s CD.

If you put it that way, sure it looks bad, but Confusion has a base 65 damage per stack plus the condition damage bonus. To ignore the 65 base damage is convenient when making BA look bad because 112.5 really looks awful.

BA will always deal 87.5 (65+22.5) base damage per stack and 437.5 (325+112.5) damage for 5 stacks.

At 1500 Condition Damage, 5 stacks of Confusion is not something you can simply ignore.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If the target refuse to take action, then Confusion is way better than Daze because it can pacify the target for 6s instead of 1s.

But even still, sometimes the Daze is better. The Daze itself only lasts 1s, but the interrupted skill is on cooldown for 5s.

If you put it that way, sure it looks bad, but Confusion has a base 65 damage per stack plus the condition damage bonus. To ignore the 65 base damage is convenient when making BA look bad because 112.5 really looks awful.

It’s not “convenient”, it’s the truth. This is what Trickery gives you. If you’re going to argue traitline synergy, this is what that “synergy” is worth. 112.5 damage per skill during the duration.

At 1500 Condition Damage, 5 stacks of Confusion is not something you can simply ignore.

The problem is that you have to itemize for 1200 of that. I can count on +100 from applied Strength, and a variable amount from Might stacks, but my gear is Zerker/Soldier/Knight, not Carrion/Dire.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If the target refuse to take action, then Confusion is way better than Daze because it can pacify the target for 6s instead of 1s.

But even still, sometimes the Daze is better. The Daze itself only lasts 1s, but the interrupted skill is on cooldown for 5s.

Pacifying their whole skill set is better though. Confusion punishes dodge too.

If you put it that way, sure it looks bad, but Confusion has a base 65 damage per stack plus the condition damage bonus. To ignore the 65 base damage is convenient when making BA look bad because 112.5 really looks awful.

It’s not “convenient”, it’s the truth. This is what Trickery gives you. If you’re going to argue traitline synergy, this is what that “synergy” is worth. 112.5 damage per skill during the duration.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here or why are you ignoring the base 65 damage of Confusion.

The comparison is either 1sDaze+20%CDR or 437.5dmg per skill/dodge use for 6s.

At 1500 Condition Damage, 5 stacks of Confusion is not something you can simply ignore.

The problem is that you have to itemize for 1200 of that. I can count on +100 from applied Strength, and a variable amount from Might stacks, but my gear is Zerker/Soldier/Knight, not Carrion/Dire.

Let’s say you don’t itemized, but have access to might. At 25 stacks of might, that’s still 1175 Condition damage — you can’t ignore that either.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Pacifying their whole skill set is better though.

Not necessarily. If I stuff someone’s #6 and put it on cooldown for 5s, that’s very often a gg.

And I also rely on the boons from Thrill/BT, so Steal available more often is useful utility to me. And I can shut down a Stability stomp. Etc. It’s situational, and in no way some decision that is pre-destined to land on the BA side.

Confusion punishes dodge too.

Sometimes.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here or why are you ignoring the base 65 damage of Confusion.

Then refresh your memory:

“The new GM trait for Trickery is 1000 times better in practice since it actually sync with the condition damage you get from Trickery”

BA is 1000x better than SoH in practice because it adds 112 damage to a Confusion stack. That’s what you said. That’s the value of a “sync”: 112 damage.

Let’s say you don’t itemized, but have access to might. At 25 stacks of might, that’s still 1175 Condition damage — you can’t ignore that either.

I’m running Runes and Sigil of Strength, with deep Acrobatics, and not even I can maintain 25 stacks of Might.

You are being ridiculous.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

And I admit it doesn’t improve your damage output, but the idea is, again, that the game isn’t just about who does more damage.

In the world of Thieves, it is all about who does more damage because you’ll want to put your target into a defensive on engagement.

And if you’re not doing damage as a Thief, when the whole profession revolves around that idea, then you’re trolling. Plain and simple.

In WvW, running 6 in SA doesn’t mean you won’t be doing heavy damage. Yes, you’ll be doing less damage than you would with 6 in DA, but you still do VERY good dps. In addition, you gain all the defensive benefits of SA.

If playing teef were about dps alone, you’d see a lot more 5/6/0/0/3 or 6/6/0/0/2 d/d and s/p builds. The reason you don’t, and the reason 6 in SA is so popular, is because even for teefs, survivability IS important.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You need to consider survivability as well, and if I were playing WvW, I’d prefer not to give up the survivability that comes with SA.

You have this limited view that Thief’s survivability relies on having 6pts into SA — time and time again this had been proven to be inaccurate.

True, you can survive without 6 SA, but it’s a lot harder. 6 SA just offers a lot of survivability without sacrificing too much dps. Without it, you’d either have to go acro heavy or spend a lot more time on shortbow.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Although trickery’s passive benefit is condition damage, the trait line benefits many power builds — thrill of the crime, bountiful theft, SoH. This is similar to how shatter mesmers have to spec 30 into illusions, which passively improves condition damage.

How is Thrill of the Crime benefits from Condition Damage boost of Trickery? How about Bountiful Theft? SoH?

None of those benefits from having 6pts into Trickery other than having the ability to unlock them. BA on the other hand, benefits 100% from Trickery’s innate ability, both from reduced cooldown of Steal and Condition Damage.

That’s my point. The usefulness of a trait line isn’t decided by the passive stat bonus it grants. If you think about it, it’s a bit weird that you gain 300 toughness in SA when stealth is about avoiding damage in the first place.

My point is that despite the fact that trickery grants passive condition damage, the actual traits in that line greatly benefit many power builds (thrill of the crime, bountiful theft, sleight of hand), and, in fact, many power builds trait 6 into trickery. The passive stat bonus says nothing about how that trait line is intended to be used.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I didn’t make any assumptions about how (or whether you play), so I don’t know why you think my conclusions are theoretical. For the record, I’ve been testing revealed training in my builds (along with many of the other GM traits), but I find the tradeoff to be too great for my taste.

You talk about “cost” and “tradeoff” without specifying what they are, thus your conclusion is nothing but theoretical. I’ve shown you that your “picks” are lacking in many ways, yet you have not written them off even though you can’t even support your reasoning why your picks are better that RT.

One example is how weak is your reasoning why you would pick 6pts into SA even after admitting that the cost of that choice results to a weaker damage output.

I describe the costs at length. The cost is that taking 6 in DA means you give up 6 elsewhere, be that in CS, SA, or trickery. And for the reasons we’ve discussed, I’d prefer 6 in any of those lines over 6 in DA. In PvP, I’d prefer 6 in CS and 6 in trickery. In WvW, I’d prefer 6 in SA and 6 in either CS or trickery.

The tl;dr is that executioner offers more finishing power, doesn’t rely on stealth, and complement more builds (most power builds are crit based). SA offers a ton of survivability in WvW without sacrificing tons of dps. Trickery offers group support, boon strip, daze, and a stolen item (all on 21 sec cd). Compared to the 200 power while revealed from RT, I think the other options are better for most builds.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If you don’t like RT just because you don’t know how to use it, then say so. Someone here may even help you understand why RT is a better pick for their build.

This has nothing to do with knowing how to use RT. Yes, I understand some builds can work with RT, but, in general, I think the other GM traits are better choices.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Pacifying their whole skill set is better though.

Not necessarily. If I stuff someone’s #6 and put it on cooldown for 5s, that’s very often a gg.

It’s often a gg also when they refuse to take action because they don’t want to take Confusion damage. Often I’ve seen it puts them into a panic mode.

And I also rely on the boons from Thrill/BT, so Steal available more often is useful utility to me.

CDR is a miss and hit especially when spec with SoH. You don’t want to just use it as soon as it goes out of cooldown — even for Thrill/BT.

Often times, Steal just sits there out of CD because you don’t want to waste that precious Daze that can be used as an interrupt.

And I can shut down a Stability stomp.

How so? You can’t daze a stabilized target.

Etc. It’s situational, and in no way some decision that is pre-destined to land on the BA side.

Unlike SoH, where you find yourself saving that Daze, BA encourages you to use Steal as soon as it’s out of cooldown.

Confusion punishes dodge too.

Sometimes.

More like 100% of a time.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here or why are you ignoring the base 65 damage of Confusion.

Then refresh your memory:

“The new GM trait for Trickery is 1000 times better in practice since it actually sync with the condition damage you get from Trickery”

BA is 1000x better than SoH in practice because it adds 112 damage to a Confusion stack. That’s what you said. That’s the value of a “sync”: 112 damage.

Yes, that’s what I said. It’s 1000x better because;
1) BA has a potential to pacify the target for 6s.
2) It actually deals damage.
3) The worth of BA compounds depending on what your target do.
4) 1500 Cond Damg + stacks of might simply sky rockets this trait

While SoH remains constant at 1s Daze + 20%CDR that rarely taken advantage of to save Daze for interrupt.

Let’s say you don’t itemized, but have access to might. At 25 stacks of might, that’s still 1175 Condition damage — you can’t ignore that either.

I’m running Runes and Sigil of Strength, with deep Acrobatics, and not even I can maintain 25 stacks of Might.

You are being ridiculous.

My respond is within the context of WvW where 25 stack of might is easily achieved. You used WvW as your basis, why is it ridiculous?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

And I can shut down a Stability stomp.

How so? You can’t daze a stabilized target.

Bountiful theft prioritizes stability. And the boon strip comes before the daze. So with bountiful theft and and sleight of hand, you can steal to a stability stomp and interrupt it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Etc. It’s situational, and in no way some decision that is pre-destined to land on the BA side.

Unlike SoH, where you find yourself saving that Daze, BA encourages you to use Steal as soon as it’s out of cooldown.

Sleight of hand doesn’t make you preserve your steal just for the daze. D/P and S/P use headshot, S/D uses out of steath auto. The daze is just an added benefit of sleight of hand. The only time I could think of saving the steal is if I expect a team mate to go down and I anticipate needing to interrupt a stability stomp.

Other than that, I still use steal whenever I think it’d be a good situation to do so, and rarely is the daze a deterrent.

mango.9267:

In WvW, running 6 in SA doesn’t mean you won’t be doing heavy damage. Yes, you’ll be doing less damage than you would with 6 in DA, but you still do VERY good dps. In addition, you gain all the defensive benefits of SA.

No you won’t be doing heavy damage no matter how much you try nor your dps would be “very good” — mediocre maybe.

And while you’re in stealth, you’re not doing any damage — you’re just trolling.

If playing teef were about dps alone, you’d see a lot more 5/6/0/0/3 or 6/6/0/0/2 d/d and s/p builds. The reason you don’t, and the reason 6 in SA is so popular, is because even for teefs, survivability IS important.

Again.

You have this limited view that Thief’s survivability relies on having 6pts into SA — time and time again this had been proven to be inaccurate.

True, you can survive without 6 SA, but it’s a lot harder. 6 SA just offers a lot of survivability without sacrificing too much dps. Without it, you’d either have to go acro heavy or spend a lot more time on shortbow.

Again.

You have this limited view that Thief’s survivability relies on having 6pts into SA — time and time again this had been proven to be inaccurate.

That’s my point. The usefulness of a trait line isn’t decided by the passive stat bonus it grants. If you think about it, it’s a bit weird that you gain 300 toughness in SA when stealth is about avoiding damage in the first place.

No it’s not weird at all because the trait also give healing power. Healing power would be worthless if you can’t mitigate the incoming damage.

You don’t avoid damage by going in stealth. Just FYI.

My point is that despite the fact that trickery grants passive condition damage, the actual traits in that line greatly benefit many power builds (thrill of the crime, bountiful theft, sleight of hand), and, in fact, many power builds trait 6 into trickery. The passive stat bonus says nothing about how that trait line is intended to be used.

Builds take those traits for utility. Even a non-power spec can benefit from those traits. What specific benefit that is exclusive to power build from Trickery? None.

What specific benefit that is exclusive to condition damage build from Trickery? Well it’s obvious, a base 300 condition damage.

I describe the costs at length. The cost is that taking 6 in DA means you give up 6 elsewhere, be that in CS, SA, or trickery. And for the reasons we’ve discussed, I’d prefer 6 in any of those lines over 6 in DA. In PvP, I’d prefer 6 in CS and 6 in trickery. In WvW, I’d prefer 6 in SA and 6 in either CS or trickery.

So this IS your personal preference and not something that “every single Thief” choose.

Got it.

The tl;dr is that executioner offers more finishing power, doesn’t rely on stealth, and complement more builds (most power builds are crit based). SA offers a ton of survivability in WvW without sacrificing tons of dps. Trickery offers group support, boon strip, daze, and a stolen item (all on 21 sec cd). Compared to the 200 power while revealed from RT, I think the other options are better for most builds.

6pts in DA gives 300 power + 200 power from RT = 500 power. That’s nothing to sneeze at.

How can you possibly make up that loss of power when you spec for 6pts in to SA?

If you want to look at cost, that’s it there, right there. That’s how much it cost to spec 6pts into SA — 500 power.

This has nothing to do with knowing how to use RT. Yes, I understand some builds can work with RT, but, in general, I think the other GM traits are better choices.

The other GM traits are build specific that cannot be used in “general.”

You like to generalize everything using hyperbole. You’re better off admitting that it is your personal preference than trying to speak for every Thief.

mango.9267:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

And I can shut down a Stability stomp.

How so? You can’t daze a stabilized target.

Bountiful theft prioritizes stability. And the boon strip comes before the daze. So with bountiful theft and and sleight of hand, you can steal to a stability stomp and interrupt it.

Ah I forgot about that, someone did mention that before, thanks.

Sleight of hand doesn’t make you preserve your steal just for the daze. D/P and S/P use headshot, S/D uses out of steath auto. The daze is just an added benefit of sleight of hand. The only time I could think of saving the steal is if I expect a team mate to go down and I anticipate needing to interrupt a stability stomp.

Other than that, I still use steal whenever I think it’d be a good situation to do so, and rarely is the daze a deterrent.

That’s my point. You have to save it for a good use. I used it myself to interrupt a chain stun/kd. So often times, the CDR is rarely taken advantage of.

>>6pts in DA gives 300 power + 200 power from RT = 500 power. That’s nothing to sneeze at.

>>How can you possibly make up that loss of power when you spec for 6pts in to SA?
If you want to look at cost, that’s it there, right there. That’s how much it cost to spec 6pts into SA — 500 power.

Well you DO have to account for the MIGHT on stealth line. Each stealth is 2 stacks of might running 15 seconds. When you get Runes that increase might duration, the ongoing stealths do pile on the might.

These without any other boost see the might runes last 22 seconds and while it NOT the 200 power one gets from RT it IS power and lasts much longer.

If one stealths 3 times in 12 seconds you will have 6 stacks . Venomshare is the other “offensive trait” one can get from the SA line and the increased damage from that can be significant.

Now if one goes 10/0/30/0/30 and includes the might stacks of say 8 up and running for the stealth (SR alone gives then thats 380 power to the 500 from DA which is no longer as significant a loss and it power that lasts a wee bit longer then the revealed trait.

Needless to say one must then compare all the other advantages of each line.

(I too tend to like the DA line. Its underrated IMHO)