Guild Wars 2

Fixing the forum bug.

To be honest, I hope that they take the opportunity to introduce totally new weapons if they’re gonna do it. Give us something like a crossbow, that way we could on long range, but with smaller, rapid attacks with lots of soft/hard cc, and lock the big damage behind criteria like having to immob an enemy with skill 3 to get access to the big damage skill (for example). That way, since a prerequisite attack is needed the spike can’t come with absolutely zero tell. Much more interesting than a sniper rifle imo.

Which is literally what I proposed >.>

Just rather than a whole new class of weapons (something I doubt we’ll ever see due to the amount of work it’d take), make the specialization weapon a rifle skinned as a black-powder-powered crossbow. Now you’ve got crossbows game-wide on anything with rifle for flavor reasons, and a logical way to introduce it.

A lot of people seem to be looking at this from a PvP perspective, that getting attacked by a Sniper player would be really annoying. And it would be. But what if they significantly split off the class between PvP and PvE?

Like when I was brainstorming how the class could work, it basically involved a #1 attack that was the big “sniper shot”, bursty but slow, and then a rapid fire #2 ability (which would be very cheap and offset by certain Steal bonuses I put in place). What if they did something like that for the PvE version, but then in the PvP version they rebalanced them, so that the sniper shot was relatively weak and largely not worth using, but the rapid fire option was much stronger than in PvP, allowing it to become the bread and butter DPS?

Think of it like Widowmaker in Overwatch, if they determined that sniping was way too OP, they could rebalance her to have weaker sniper shots and much stronger auto-rifle mode.

This would give the rifle a purpose in PvP, as a skirmishing long range option, while also giving it a purpose in PvE, as a way to deal solid DPS to enemies that are deadly in melee range.

DeceiverX.8361:

Which is literally what I proposed >.>

Just rather than a whole new class of weapons (something I doubt we’ll ever see due to the amount of work it’d take), make the specialization weapon a rifle skinned as a black-powder-powered crossbow. Now you’ve got crossbows game-wide on anything with rifle for flavor reasons, and a logical way to introduce it.

A black powder crossbow is called a “gun,” and they are already in the game.

DeceiverX.8361:

On what trait configuration? Current meta in sPvP? Because arbitrary “feels good” damage numbers on the meta non-optimal-damage amulet mean absolutely nothing on the thief, where the current meta builds don’t even run close to optimal damage output, and long range makes such builds very easy and very safe.

Further, you can’t tie a rifle skill to the class mechanic. What if the thief decides not to use the rifle? He gets a snipe shot nuke coming from… Sword/Dagger?

Further, such damage in sPvP on the existing meta build is astronomical. I could make said spec hit for 30k+ per hit in WvW.

The imbalance on the mechanic itself is also far from the mark; to have any counterplay, it’d require being revealed before dealing the damage. Otherwise one could just stack stealth with D/P or use BP/SR and snipe someone down with an unblockable nuke via BV, all of which having no tell. Being in stealth and bursting from such substantial range with the ability to shadowstep is just too powerful.

you get sniper shot when holding a gun if not you get regular steal
you said it correctly . you need someone to reveal the thief as per today. if not you gonna get shot. also today you can stack stealth so nothing change. also today thief attacks from stealth so i dont get your point…
the dmg isnt so high compare to its dps. as the attack are 3/4 sec and from melee are much faster. so yes range is more safer
in pvp i dont think it change the meta d/p weapon set. maybe the sb if they give shadow step ability with the weapon set

On the subject of sniping with a Rifle. Early in beta there were skills (Meteor Shower was one) where the skill changed the longer the skill was held down. This mechanic survived in siege weapons like the Trebuchet and Catapults. In fact, such a skill has already been used Sniper Shot

A Thief, upon stealthing, could gain access to the sniping skill. The longer it was held down the more powerful the shot becomes. However, a fully charged shot might last longer than stealth. Such an idea would be both similar and different from Warrior’s Killshot while keeping the theming of the Thief. It would certainly make for interesting interactions with current and future traits.

Channeled, hold to channel, what ever way they decide to implement what you people say you want from a rifle, it wont work out in the long run unless rifle spec is either completely stealth-less, has no high single hit burst skills and is sustained or rapid attack based, or give every single other class low cooldown reveals. Flat out Stealth + high burst at range will make the masses cry for nerfs and anet will respond with the usual sweeping nerfs that they do this class already. So at best after the first balance pass we’d have a better version of p/d or a much weaker version of warrior rifle from a rifle spec.

To be honest they should first fix some of the existing weapons. Like p/p I really don’t know why a weapon which deals mostly power dmg has a condi damaging auto attack. Same with d/d power based autoattack combined with a condi 3. What the thief really lacks (just like the guard) is a condi weapon he has an strong condi bomb but besides that nearly zero reliable condis on his weapons. I thought they will introduce a condi weapon with the last xpac which just didn’t happen yet another power weapon.

Assuming they won’t allow choosing 2 elite traitlines together (because it would be silly and overpowered), long range rifle would be very fitting to the thief and a logical step forward for the class.
People in this thread are over-exaggerating, because right now warrior has a proper rifle build and it can hit like a truck and do one-shots with 1500 range. I see no reason why thief couldn’t have something like that which isn’t op and still usable. With a thief twist, of course, which would be added blinds, stealth and shadowstepping.
Damage here is not even the issue as the numbers are easily changed and balanced. People think that if the specialisation will be called sniper/orsomethinglikethis that it automatically needs to do 20k crits and kill everything in one shot. Sure, it will need to hit at least as much as warrior (remember that thieves have lower HP and lower armor so it’s only natural that damage is at least on the level), but even if it did hit slightly more it wouldn’t really pose an issue because weapon would be slow to compensate and at close range you’d be switching to regular melee anyways.

It’s a shame that pistols and rifles are so neglected in the game and usually pushed to the margin.

P/P is viewed as a hybrid set, as evidenced by the Might stacks it now generates plus the comments when those Might stacks were added. Especially now with Daredevil, P/P can reliably use Sneak Attack similar to P/D. It can still build around Unload, so its Power build remains.

D/D has been pushed more towards the condition role. It has Poison on auto attack and Poison application on any dagger attack. D/P is more reliable to build around Backstab even if Shadow Shot outshines even that.

Earlier in the game’s lifespan weapon sets acted rather differently than they do now. However, each combination has been gradually pushed towards more specific roles. A few people haven’t liked some of these changes, but I think they’re better for the game overall. Now with Elite Specs, its much easier to identify niches where a new weapon and new skills could provide new playstyles. Whether or not a Rifle is a long range sniper, a shotgun style shock trooper, or anything else, it’ll be easier for it to have a defined role.

Sir Mad.1092:

Screw riffles. Give us double torches instead!

That’s what I want the most. Arsonist.

Ohoni.6057:

DeceiverX.8361:

Which is literally what I proposed >.>

Just rather than a whole new class of weapons (something I doubt we’ll ever see due to the amount of work it’d take), make the specialization weapon a rifle skinned as a black-powder-powered crossbow. Now you’ve got crossbows game-wide on anything with rifle for flavor reasons, and a logical way to introduce it.

A black powder crossbow is called a “gun,” and they are already in the game.

Not really. The bolt propulsion can still be done via a string. I was referring more or less to the pulling back of the string. Granted, the physics suggests no reason for this design to be implemented since it’d require a substantial explosion to generate the fore opposite the power stroke of the bow, which would be equivocal to just shooting the projectile via an explosion per a standard gun.

Though we could also just take approach of said skin from not having any detonation element to it at all. I only mentioned it for sound effect integrity being consistent across weapon skins/classes.

Not really. The bolt propulsion can still be done via a string. I was referring more or less to the pulling back of the string. Granted, the physics suggests no reason for this design to be implemented since it’d require a substantial explosion to generate the fore opposite the power stroke of the bow, which would be equivocal to just shooting the projectile via an explosion per a standard gun.

So you’re talking about a device that uses a black powder explosion to rocket the string back towards your face with as much force as the string would use to fire the projectile? Yeah, that sounds safe.

We don’t need crossbows, just let Thieves use the Rifle. If they want to make them stealhier, have the Elite Bonus Weapon be a proper sniper rifle with a suppressor on it, with modified audio to go “pthut, pthut,” instead of “bang, bang.” They already have modified audio on several guns.

LOL thief is going to get a condi spec/weapon stop kidding yourselves.

I am ecstatic for a rifle. It is exactly what thief needs- something that let’s it deal high damage at a good range.

Keep in mind that these leaks may be drastically different to what we actually and eventually get. The same thing happened with HoT. DH was supposed to have a rifle, ele was to get a sword, druid was supposed to be something totally different, etc..

For all we know, everything leaked is already old information.

I would like a rifle thief but honestly, I would more like to see something related to shadow magic. A focus, maybe some kind of shadow consecrations, shadowform..

What are you talking about, Yannir? I followed HoT’s development and leaks to the community, and of those three you mentioned, the only one that’s correct is “ele with sword”. DH was even clearly set up to use the bow from early art that came out of Braham using Eir’s bow long before the Dragon Hunter was revealed.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

So the rumor is that thief is getting the rifle for their elite spec. Anyone else NOT excited about this?

Where can I read this rumor?

maddoctor.2738:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

So the rumor is that thief is getting the rifle for their elite spec. Anyone else NOT excited about this?

Where can I read this rumor?

We’ve got a three week old “leak” by someone who claimed to be an Anet dev here

The veracity of the claims is suspect, but this individual did predict the Eureka mace before it was released, so shrug

The veracity of the claims is suspect, but this individual did predict the Eureka mace before it was released, so shrug

The thing is, the Eureka mace was likely available to a lot of people that would have no idea what’s happening six months or more down the pipe, so knowing a few things soon to release doesn’t mean knowing the long term plans.

Harnel.6810:

What are you talking about, Yannir? I followed HoT’s development and leaks to the community, and of those three you mentioned, the only one that’s correct is “ele with sword”. DH was even clearly set up to use the bow from early art that came out of Braham using Eir’s bow long before the Dragon Hunter was revealed.

I may be wrong on those, I listed things based on what I’ve heard. I didn’t actually play the game during development, and only returned to it during the 1st Beta weekend.

But don’t get caught up on the details, that wasn’t the idea behind that post. It’s hardly relevant whether what I said is true or not. But just to clarify, those are just things I heard somewhere. Can’t even point out the source.

Keep in mind that rifle is currently only available in 2 classes, if its not thief someone will definitely will have to get rifle for the next specialization, what other candidates we have for rifle, i think ranger is the only one no? that makes it a 50/50 chance to get rifle or no…

Although giving Thieves a reliable 1200 ranged weapon would be very nice, especially for zerg modes (general PVE and WvW blob fights) I don’t see how this can be any different to Warrior Rifle. I’d love to have a “sniper spec” with a long range snipe skill but that’s what Warrior Rifle is all about. Also long range + stealth might create some very serious problems in WvW and to some lesser extend in PVP.

Maybe they will surprise us and the Rifle for Thieves (if it’s a rifle) will be a close range weapon like a shotgun. Shotguns are also Rifles.

What thieves need (in my opinion) other than a long range weapon, is party support. They’ve been awesome in the past when things could be skipped with stealth, everyone wanted a Thief to stack stealth and skip entire dungeons, but in non-skip-able content a Thief doesn’t have any kind of good support options.

The question is what kind of support can a Thief provide? Might? We have PS Warriors. Quickness? We have Chronos.

maddoctor.2738:

The question is what kind of support can a Thief provide? Might? We have PS Warriors. Quickness? We have Chronos.

Here is where I chime and point out thief is the only class that does not have a passive aura. Thief is also a class that has been struggling with party support and sustain. I honestly think a siphon as a aura, or siphon as a group mechanic would be an interesting and relevant way to make thief more attractive for groups and help out in other game modes.

Eval.2371:

maddoctor.2738:

The question is what kind of support can a Thief provide? Might? We have PS Warriors. Quickness? We have Chronos.

Here is where I chime and point out thief is the only class that does not have a passive aura. Thief is also a class that has been struggling with party support and sustain. I honestly think a siphon as a aura, or siphon as a group mechanic would be an interesting and relevant way to make thief more attractive for groups and help out in other game modes.

Maybe revamp Venoms to be actual Auras.

Used to be able to at least stack 6+ might on people with venoms but they completely removed it. ~.~ rip Thief’s only support build.

For weapons we need a totally new Dual Weapon for both hands. Focus/Focus h2h Monk, Torch/Torch Arsonist, Axe/Axe Bandit, Scepter/Scepter Trickster, Mace/mace Sabotager with baseball bat skin, lol. Stuff liek that opens up more options. Say if they pick Torch you get;
Torch/Dagger
Torch/Pistol
Dagger/Torch
Pistol/Torch
Sword/Torch
All with their own Dual Attacks.
You pick Rifle and you get;
Rifle…
The absolute best option for Thief is a new Dual weapon.
They could also just add Off-Hand sword without an Elite Spec too imo since we already know how to use one. ;/ I really don’t think making an elite for that is necessary.

We also have two perfectly good Range Weapons that could just get more love rather than throw in a 3rd one.

One thing that irks me is people keep saying that 1200 range is the sensible max, and that’s not true. It’s the max for most classes yeah, like Warrior and guardian, but the actual max range for weapon skills is the ranger’s Longbow, at 1500. If we’re going for a “long range sniper” setup, I really, REALLY don’t see why we wouldn’t have the actual maximum ranger, which is 1500, given sniper rifles are renowned for their ability to hit targets accurately and hard at massive distances.

As for team support, yeah, that’s something thief consistently lacks. What about something similar to what Warrior does? Any time a thief grants a boon to themselves (maybe fury) they also grant it to allies.

Doggie.3184:

Used to be able to at least stack 6+ might on people with venoms but they completely removed it. ~.~ rip Thief’s only support build.

For weapons we need a totally new Dual Weapon for both hands. Focus/Focus h2h Monk, Torch/Torch Arsonist, Axe/Axe Bandit, Scepter/Scepter Trickster, Mace/mace Sabotager with baseball bat skin, lol. Stuff liek that opens up more options. Say if they pick Torch you get;
Torch/Dagger
Torch/Pistol
Dagger/Torch
Pistol/Torch
Sword/Torch
All with their own Dual Attacks.
You pick Rifle and you get;
Rifle…
The absolute best option for Thief is a new Dual weapon.
They could also just add Off-Hand sword without an Elite Spec too imo since we already know how to use one. ;/ I really don’t think making an elite for that is necessary.

We also have two perfectly good Range Weapons that could just get more love rather than throw in a 3rd one.

I don’t think we’d begetting two new weapon slots for exactly that reason, any thief OH weapon opens up more skill than any other class’s one-hands, aside from Ele. We might get one, but two is very unlikely. If we don’t get a 2H weapon, I assume we’ll be getting an OH at most. I still hope Focus.

Harnel.6810:

One thing that irks me is people keep saying that 1200 range is the sensible max, and that’s not true. It’s the max for most classes yeah, like Warrior and guardian, but the actual max range for weapon skills is the ranger’s Longbow, at 1500. If we’re going for a “long range sniper” setup, I really, REALLY don’t see why we wouldn’t have the actual maximum ranger, which is 1500, given sniper rifles are renowned for their ability to hit targets accurately and hard at massive distances.

As for team support, yeah, that’s something thief consistently lacks. What about something similar to what Warrior does? Any time a thief grants a boon to themselves (maybe fury) they also grant it to allies.

I think a Sniper should have 1200 range for basic attacks, but done right they could have a trait that raises some of the attacks to 1500 range, and it shouldn’t be impossible to balance out.

If all rumor is true, Rifle will be broken OP in beta testing for Thief. It’ll be toned down before live to specific use case only (probably only useful from stealth) since it’ll rely on low damage and/or high initiative costs to balance.

maddoctor.2738:

Although giving Thieves a reliable 1200 ranged weapon would be very nice, especially for zerg modes (general PVE and WvW blob fights) I don’t see how this can be any different to Warrior Rifle. I’d love to have a “sniper spec” with a long range snipe skill but that’s what Warrior Rifle is all about.

Ummm, multiple classes have greatswords/swords/axes/whatevers and they are all completely different when used.

Artaz.3819:

If all rumor is true, Rifle will be broken OP in beta testing for Thief. It’ll be toned down before live to specific use case only (probably only useful from stealth) since it’ll rely on low damage and/or high initiative costs to balance.

Or they could simply make it deal reasonable damage and not 10k hits each shot? Also, that’s what beta testing is all about! Balancing and fixing stuff.

Ohoni.6057:

Doggie.3184:

Used to be able to at least stack 6+ might on people with venoms but they completely removed it. ~.~ rip Thief’s only support build.

For weapons we need a totally new Dual Weapon for both hands. Focus/Focus h2h Monk, Torch/Torch Arsonist, Axe/Axe Bandit, Scepter/Scepter Trickster, Mace/mace Sabotager with baseball bat skin, lol. Stuff liek that opens up more options. Say if they pick Torch you get;
Torch/Dagger
Torch/Pistol
Dagger/Torch
Pistol/Torch
Sword/Torch
All with their own Dual Attacks.
You pick Rifle and you get;
Rifle…
The absolute best option for Thief is a new Dual weapon.
They could also just add Off-Hand sword without an Elite Spec too imo since we already know how to use one. ;/ I really don’t think making an elite for that is necessary.

We also have two perfectly good Range Weapons that could just get more love rather than throw in a 3rd one.

I don’t think we’d begetting two new weapon slots for exactly that reason, any thief OH weapon opens up more skill than any other class’s one-hands, aside from Ele. We might get one, but two is very unlikely. If we don’t get a 2H weapon, I assume we’ll be getting an OH at most. I still hope Focus.

Considering Ele gets 8 Weapon skills and 4 F skills for their elite spec I don’t see why it’d be a problem. Dual skills are something exclusive to Thief, they should make the most of it.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Eval.2371:

maddoctor.2738:

The question is what kind of support can a Thief provide? Might? We have PS Warriors. Quickness? We have Chronos.

Here is where I chime and point out thief is the only class that does not have a passive aura. Thief is also a class that has been struggling with party support and sustain. I honestly think a siphon as a aura, or siphon as a group mechanic would be an interesting and relevant way to make thief more attractive for groups and help out in other game modes.

Maybe revamp Venoms to be actual Auras.

Like how they should have been all along? Preposterous!

Considering Ele gets 8 Weapon skills and 4 F skills for their elite spec I don’t see why it’d be a problem.

We’re discussing this exact issue over on the ele board, eles get a minimum of eight new skills when they get any new weapon, and they’re already complaining that they aren’t getting two-handers (ie 20 skills). It’s a problem. Still, no class has recieved two weapons in a single update, so even if they do intend to give Thieves “Torch/Torch” at some point, they’d likely only drop it as an OH or Mainhand in one patch, and the other in another.

As for the long game, Thieves get exponentially crazier each time they update the basic kit. Right now there are nine #3 skills available. If they add one more MH, that grows to twelve. If they add another OH after that, that grows to sixteen. If they add another MH, that grows to twenty.

I think I did the math right, might be off one or two. In any case, that last one would mean that to add a single weapon that normally only adds three new skills, on the Thief it would end up adding six, more than a two-hander (three default, one dagger, one pistol, one OH#3). And it only gets worse from there, the next OH after that bringing seven skills to the party on a two-skill weapon.

Yeah, Ele is by far the stickiest class to work with, and they’ll have to get creative with how they plan to add new weapons there, but Thief has issues too, which is part of the reason Staff and Rifle are so attractive. They give five skills, but do not grow the two-hander pool.

I’m not saying that they should never add new one-handers, there are definitely combos I want to see, but I have reasonable expectations on pacing.

edit: OH! and I totally forgot, but Thieves also automatically get another skill with every 2H or MH attack, the stealth swapped ability. So that would be yet another ability added on each time a MH is introduced.

DeceiverX.8361:

If they copy-pasted my idea, that’s about the only way it’ll work.

Now, my ego IS actually large enough it sets up its own series of tides as the world turns beneath it, but that was impressive. But really, anyone who thinks there’s only one workable solution isn’t exactly wowing me on imagination front. It generally takes a lot more agility and flexibility to really catch the Devs’ eye.

A burst sniper is horrible by design and is totally unwanted. from both the perspective of it not being fun to play against and not very useful to the thief in general.

If only we’d already seen that ANet is willing to treat rifles as shotgun-like weapons with relatively close ranges. I mean, that right there would immediately set up a whole series of possible treatments as 600, 900, 1200, or 1500 range weapons or even some sort of mix. Oooo, crazy talk, I know.

Oh, hello, Engineer.

Personally I think there’s something interesting to be done with a new f3 button that consumes ALL the initiative you have in a single attack (and may even lock out your initiative generation for a few seconds…), producing a beastly huge effect that’s based on whatever your Main-hand or 2-hand weapon is when you click the almighty kaboom. When used with a rifle this f3 ‘alpha strike’ could be some sort of snipe attack even if the 1-5 buttons are otherwise quite different from most expectations.

If only we’d already seen that ANet is willing to treat rifles as shotgun-like weapons with relatively close ranges. I mean, that right there would immediately set up a whole series of possible treatments as 600, 900, 1200, or 1500 range weapons or even some sort of mix. Oooo, crazy talk, I know.

I would really hate it if they gave us a rifle that offered anything less than 1200 range on the major DPS. Not only would it be completely redundant with our existing 900 range options, but it wouldn’t make sense thematically either. If they can’t give us sniper rifles then they shouldn’t give us rifle at all, there are several other weapons that would be more fun and useful to the class than a 900- range rifle.

I do kind of like the idea of burning all your initiative for a single burst, although I still think it would be hard to balance for PvP. I mean, yeah, it may be mathematically balanced in a “damage over time” sense, but it would still NEVER be any fun to be doing just fine and then a Thief blasts you for instantly lethal damage from a distance, no matter how many hoops he had to jump through to get to that point.

It needs to be carefully balanced between allowing solid burst from time to time, but not completely overwhelming burst, and then decent sustain for when the burst isn’t working. And as I said earlier, I think this will require a PvP/PvE split, in which the burst is tuned down and the spam tuned up in PvP relative to PvE.

Why couldn’t a Shotgun Rifle have 450 range autoattack? What about it being Burn and CC based and having a long activating 1500 range snipe as the Stealth skill? Or maybe it fires darts that stick and deal damage over multiple ticks at 600 range and the Stealth skill is an immobilizing bayonet charge followed by point-blank blast?

Rifle can be designed so many different ways that are just as or more thematic and fitting than Laser Greatswords or Phantom Hammers.

A quick aside about PvP/PvE splits… They are one of the single dumbest things you can do to a game. Any time you introduce barriers to player understanding between major gameplay modes, you shave years off that game’s lifespan. Its that bad. You want to create every opportunity for players to migrate between your gameplay options so that when they’re bored with one part, they shift to another… without having to re-learn what their skills do.

And ultimately it’s a sign of weakness in the design… that they’ve made the PvE experience so mind-numbingly easy, so poorly executed in terms of hostile AI that a skill that unremarkable in one arena is overpowered in another. That’s how things like ludicrous NPC HP creep get rolling in the first place. Instead of USING all the nuance already present in your game, you tack on an extra 0 at the end of their hit point value.

For all it’s many sins, one thing SWtOR did exceptionally well was present major bosses that on the whole appeared to be using the same skills as the players used. Sure, you might telekinetically rip loose and hurl a boulder once every 8 seconds and the mean old nutjob jedi might string together six of those attacks, one every 1.5 seconds, but at least you felt like everybody was playing with roughly the same deck. And it worked the other direction two – one boss had an awesome double sword toss (whereas players could only throw one sword at a time) that eventually propagated back to players after a level cap increase. Guild Wars is one of those games that would instantly be 5 times better just by having more typical landscape mobs self-buff or cross-buff (yay Dredge!). Not because they ’d be tougher (well, that would help too in most cases…) but because suddenly boon strip, boon steal, and boon corruption would be RELEVANT in more than just SPvP.

Other players represent the apex predator of the game, the enemy that fights back with cunning and a WIDE array of abilities. Rather than split your mechanics, you need to move NPCs upwards towards that threshold. A skill’s PvP behavior is and should be the benchmark for the skill, with its PvE behavior the afterthought even in a predominantly PvE game.

Nike.2631:

And ultimately it’s a sign of weakness in the design… that they’ve made the PvE experience so mind-numbingly easy, so poorly executed in terms of hostile AI that a skill that unremarkable in one arena is overpowered in another. That’s how things like ludicrous NPC HP creep get rolling in the first place. Instead of USING all the nuance already present in your game, you tack on an extra 0 at the end of their hit point value.

Take a look at PVE blob fights and compare it to sPVP fights, they are very different things, that’s because most skills are balanced for 5 players while in PVE open world encounters there are way more players around. It’s not possible to balance those mob groups for 50 and 2 players at the same time.

In GW1 all mobs had player skills and they always came in big groups, more often than not very well balanced groups, with a variety of builds. That’s great in an instance or small scale fights in general but it doesn’t work very well in huge fights with loads of players.

Nike.2631:

A quick aside about PvP/PvE splits… They are one of the single dumbest things you can do to a game. Any time you introduce barriers to player understanding between major gameplay modes, you shave years off that game’s lifespan. Its that bad. You want to create every opportunity for players to migrate between your gameplay options so that when they’re bored with one part, they shift to another… without having to re-learn what their skills do.

And ultimately it’s a sign of weakness in the design… that they’ve made the PvE experience so mind-numbingly easy, so poorly executed in terms of hostile AI that a skill that unremarkable in one arena is overpowered in another. That’s how things like ludicrous NPC HP creep get rolling in the first place. Instead of USING all the nuance already present in your game, you tack on an extra 0 at the end of their hit point value.

For all it’s many sins, one thing SWtOR did exceptionally well was present major bosses that on the whole appeared to be using the same skills as the players used. Sure, you might telekinetically rip loose and hurl a boulder once every 8 seconds and the mean old nutjob jedi might string together six of those attacks, one every 1.5 seconds, but at least you felt like everybody was playing with roughly the same deck. And it worked the other direction two – one boss had an awesome double sword toss (whereas players could only throw one sword at a time) that eventually propagated back to players after a level cap increase. Guild Wars is one of those games that would instantly be 5 times better just by having more typical landscape mobs self-buff or cross-buff (yay Dredge!). Not because they ’d be tougher (well, that would help too in most cases…) but because suddenly boon strip, boon steal, and boon corruption would be RELEVANT in more than just SPvP.

Other players represent the apex predator of the game, the enemy that fights back with cunning and a WIDE array of abilities. Rather than split your mechanics, you need to move NPCs upwards towards that threshold. A skill’s PvP behavior is and should be the benchmark for the skill, with its PvE behavior the afterthought even in a predominantly PvE game.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Its another feather in the cap of GW1. Enemies and bosses to the largest extent would use actual player skills (which you’d then capture, especially Elite skills). Certain skills were worth interrupting, certain enemies would use almost player-worthy builds. Its an immensely important aspect in a game that isn’t quite used as much as it should.

maddoctor.2738:

Take a look at PVE blob fights and compare it to sPVP fights, they are very different things, that’s because most skills are balanced for 5 players while in PVE open world encounters there are way more players around. It’s not possible to balance those mob groups for 50 and 2 players at the same time.

In GW1 all mobs had player skills and they always came in big groups, more often than not very well balanced groups, with a variety of builds. That’s great in an instance or small scale fights in general but it doesn’t work very well in huge fights with loads of players.

From a design standpoint, it isn’t that particularly hard. GW2 is already deep into scaling anything based on level or players. Random Centaur mobs, for example, could be further designed to be Warriors, Engineers, Guardians, etc rather than the same thing with different auto attacks. There’s enough that pop up during any given event that they can afford to use the exact same skills the players are. Let Rifle wielders use the Warrior or Engineer skills. Let Torch users display the same animations as the Guardian, Ranger, or Mesmer. Even simple builds of 3 skills only brings more variety than what’s displayed. Champions and other higher level “bosses” can scale their attacks based on the event scaling system already in place. At Maw (since its on my mind), the Svanir Shaman can cast a normal Ice Spike, but it appears once per 3 players. Code in a pattern for it to fill and you’re golden. Some enemies are already close, like Rotbeard and the Balthazar Champion in Cursed Shore. They have a skill similar to Mind Stab just without the boon removal and way too much damage. Increase the attack rate of the average enemy so that Confusion and Retaliation have more usefulness.

I’ve been typing longer and going off-topic a bit more than I wanted to, so I’ll try to bring it back. A Rifle on Thief can be designed many ways, particularly in ways different to the current Warrior and Engineer offerings. I hope that in the next expansion, we’ll be able to see enemies using the theoretical new skills, and the current ones we have now.

It also helps with immersion. When your opponents – roughly humanoid opponents, anyway – are using the same skills as those that are available to the PCs, or at least recognisably in the same general categories, it reinforces that the PCs and NPCs are each part of the same consistent world.

Ohoni.6057:

As for the long game, Thieves get exponentially crazier each time they update the basic kit. Right now there are nine #3 skills available. If they add one more MH, that grows to twelve. If they add another OH after that, that grows to sixteen. If they add another MH, that grows to twenty.

Don’t forget that you can only have one elite specialisation at once. Which means you can only have the weapon from one elite specialisation at once.

This, in turn, means that the exponential growth in dual skills you speak of can’t happen. A new MH would have three new slot-3 skills associated with it: X/- (which will probably just be a weaker version of one of the others, and they may not bother at all since the X/- skills usually only get used in the really early levels), X/dagger, and X/pistol. A new OH would have three: sword/X, dagger/X, and pistol/X. If they have both MH and OH versions of the same weapon in an elite spec, then it’s seven.

Unless there’s a change in policy, that will be the case if it’s the first elite specialisation to introduce a non-2H weapon or the thirteenth. They don’t need to create dual skills for combinations of weapons that can’t happen because you can only have one elite specialisation at once.

Why couldn’t a Shotgun Rifle have 450 range autoattack? What about it being Burn and CC based and having a long activating 1500 range snipe as the Stealth skill? Or maybe it fires darts that stick and deal damage over multiple ticks at 600 range and the Stealth skill is an immobilizing bayonet charge followed by point-blank blast?

Ugh, that all sounds awful, do not want. I already have two barely useful ranged options to choose from, I don’t need another.

A quick aside about PvP/PvE splits… They are one of the single dumbest things you can do to a game. Any time you introduce barriers to player understanding between major gameplay modes, you shave years off that game’s lifespan. Its that bad.

PvP is dead. We can’t allow it to drag down PvE, but at the same time we want to cause it as little damage as possible. PvE needs a strong DPS long range weapon for Thieves. PvP doesn’t particularly need this. Anything that would make Rifle fun and useful to a PvE player would make it OP, or at the very least annoying to victims in PvP, and annoyed victims are the worst criers. A PvP/PvE split is almost inevitable to have any chance at a fun Thief Rifle.

I would try to keep it simple and easy to grasp, well informed to the players. Basically, the abilities should function identically, but the big burst “headshot” kind of skill in PvE would do less damage in PvP, so that it doesn’t lead to as many one-shots, while the chip-damage rapid attacks would do lower damage in PvE, while being quite effective in PvP, allowing players to keep pressure on the enemy without that insta-gib attack that the PvE side gets. Both attacks would still be useful in either mode, just in different situations, and players should be able to grasp this, as NO power is used identically in both modes.

Other players represent the apex predator of the game, the enemy that fights back with cunning and a WIDE array of abilities. Rather than split your mechanics, you need to move NPCs upwards towards that threshold. A skill’s PvP behavior is and should be the benchmark for the skill, with its PvE behavior the afterthought even in a predominantly PvE game.

And players that enjoy that can find them in PvP. That many players do NOT PvP should tell you that many players do not seek out that experience. Different players enjoy different things. Just because you do not seem to enjoy the gameplay of Guild Wars 2 does not mean that it’s not the best gameplay for Guild Wars 2 to have.

Personally, I could see some enemies raised up a bit, I mean the new Sloth Queen is clearly a bit of a snore, and even played at it’s most fun, dodging from lava rock to rock, the Mursat Jade is a bit of an HP sponge, but I would take them any day of the week over NPCs that behaved like PvP opponents.

Unless there’s a change in policy, that will be the case if it’s the first elite specialisation to introduce a non-2H weapon or the thirteenth. They don’t need to create dual skills for combinations of weapons that can’t happen because you can only have one elite specialisation at once.

Ok, fair point, we’ll have to see if they eventually open up sets with multiple weapon unlocks.

For all we know this rifle could be the opisite od what people are saying (high dmg long range) everyone sais hammer was going to be knock down heaven bur look what happened to that.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

For all we know this rifle could be the opisite od what people are saying (high dmg long range) everyone sais hammer was going to be knock down heaven bur look what happened to that.

Sure, but if it’s not high damage long range then it’s junk and I do not want it at all.

Ohoni.6057:

Sure, but if it’s not high damage long range then it’s junk and I do not want it at all.

Your opinion doesn’t prevent something from having the potential to be different.

Ohoni.6057:

Sure, but if it’s not high damage long range then it’s junk and I do not want it at all.

The bottom line is your not getting that and you’re NEVER getting that.

We already know how powerful they want Thieves to be at range. We have two examples of it in fact. If the rifle is built around longer range then it’ll be even less damaging than the tools we have now and that’s even allowing for the tragically high level of power creep that slipped into the first round of elite specs (a game warping mistake I think you’ll see reigned in quite noticeably in round two…).

And remember the basic rule of ALL GW2 is ‘ranged sucks’. It’s a universal constant that reaches across all professions and all weapons. They weight the value of range really, really extremely high when balancing abilities. Plus they’ve recently had a unmistakable lesson in what the most logical ‘sniper’ ability is going to do in practice: the Dragonhunter LB #2. Locked in place, bit of a cast time, high damage. People whined like dogs with their hips crushed by a passing bus at how “unplayable” being locked in place would be… and then they put it in the game, players figured out how to play it (as the early adopters assured everyone they would…), and the Devs ended up having to nerf the amplified damage three times.

Been there, done that, have no illusions about them doing it to themselves AGAIN. And certainly not on the game’s preeminent distance control class…

Your opinion doesn’t prevent something from having the potential to be different.

Nobody’s saying it can’t be different, just that if it’s different it can’t be worth making. If they’re going to make some lame mid-range shot-gunny sort of rifle then they may as well not even bother. I’d rather have OH Focus, OH Sword, MH Focus, OH Torch, Greatsword, MH Mace, MH Focus, OH Mace, Shield, and Longbow in that order, before we get around to another useless mid-range weapon. A mid-range Rifle would be a waste of a good Rifle.

Ohoni.6057:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

For all we know this rifle could be the opisite od what people are saying (high dmg long range) everyone sais hammer was going to be knock down heaven bur look what happened to that.

Sure, but if it’s not high damage long range then it’s junk and I do not want it at all.

If it’s longer range that P/P AND deals more damage than P/P they why have P/P in the game anymore?