Guild Wars 2

We already know how powerful they want Thieves to be at range. We have two examples of it in fact. If the rifle is built around longer range then it’ll be even less damaging than the tools we have now and that’s even allowing for the tragically high level of power creep that slipped into the first round of elite specs (a game warping mistake I think you’ll see reigned in quite noticeably in round two…).

Again, that may be necessary for PvP balance but is completely opposite what Thieves need in PvE settings, hence the need for skill-split.

Ghotistyx.6942:

On the subject of sniping with a Rifle. Early in beta there were skills (Meteor Shower was one) where the skill changed the longer the skill was held down. This mechanic survived in siege weapons like the Trebuchet and Catapults. In fact, such a skill has already been used Sniper Shot

A Thief, upon stealthing, could gain access to the sniping skill. The longer it was held down the more powerful the shot becomes. However, a fully charged shot might last longer than stealth. Such an idea would be both similar and different from Warrior’s Killshot while keeping the theming of the Thief. It would certainly make for interesting interactions with current and future traits.

I have to agree that the sniper spec in the Snowball Mayhem game had some really thematically strong abilities for a “long range rifle”. And while it’s a great place to start, it also DIDN’T have a bunch of the Thief Profession’s strengths to leverage those abilities into an OP abomination.

Really, Elite Spec design is about style more that rocketing directly to the top of the charts.

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

For all we know this rifle could be the opisite od what people are saying (high dmg long range) everyone sais hammer was going to be knock down heaven bur look what happened to that.

Sure, but if it’s not high damage long range then it’s junk and I do not want it at all.

If it’s longer range that P/P AND deals more damage than P/P they why have P/P in the game anymore?

True, this rifle cant be a burst type weapon because that would kill p/p purpose, im guessing the weapon will have a mix of long range skills and melee skills, that would sound ok for me.

I don’t see why it’d be a problem. Rapid attack burst is actually very different from single-shot burst, and enemies deal with it in different ways. Additionally, I somehow doubt we’d be looking at another weapon capable of stacking might up to the nines like dual pistol is capable of.

It could start off as a mid range weapon with decent dps, but the 5 skill could root the thief in place. The skills would change to much longer range, slower, yet more powerful shots.

CreedOfGod.9764:

It could start off as a mid range weapon with decent dps, but the 5 skill could root the thief in place. The skills would change to much longer range, slower, yet more powerful shots.

That actually doesn’t sound like a bad idea. But it would be a balancing nightmare, trying to balance what is essentially 9 skills on a single weapon set.

If it’s longer range that P/P AND deals more damage than P/P they why have P/P in the game anymore?

For the Ricochet.

Also, it requires pointing out that the sniper rifle would be restricted to the “Sniper,” so P/P would always have use for Daredevils, and for later Thief specs. Also, P/P is like the Ranger Shortbow, Rifle would be like Ranger Long Bow, you can have both.

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

For all we know this rifle could be the opisite od what people are saying (high dmg long range) everyone sais hammer was going to be knock down heaven bur look what happened to that.

Sure, but if it’s not high damage long range then it’s junk and I do not want it at all.

If it’s longer range that P/P AND deals more damage than P/P they why have P/P in the game anymore?

Same reason there are daggers, even though sword exists. Different utility and way of using it.

Yannir.4132:

CreedOfGod.9764:

It could start off as a mid range weapon with decent dps, but the 5 skill could root the thief in place. The skills would change to much longer range, slower, yet more powerful shots.

That actually doesn’t sound like a bad idea. But it would be a balancing nightmare, trying to balance what is essentially 9 skills on a single weapon set.

Well they wouldn’t necessarily have to fill each skill slot. Since the number 5 would essentially only be used to set up “sniper stance”, they could make it to where only one or two abilities are available in which you would put (insert desired snipe abilities here).

Ohoni.6057:

If it’s longer range that P/P AND deals more damage than P/P they why have P/P in the game anymore?

For the Ricochet.

Also, it requires pointing out that the sniper rifle would be restricted to the “Sniper,” so P/P would always have use for Daredevils, and for later Thief specs. Also, P/P is like the Ranger Shortbow, Rifle would be like Ranger Long Bow, you can have both.

Ricochet is no longer a trait.

P/P is power, Rifle is power so nothing like ranger shortbow and longbow. What you are saying is that this Sniper spec will have a weapon that is superior to P/P and P/P will be useless for it. And you are OK with it.

And off-topic, you were so against a Sword for Elementalists because it would be similar to Dagger. But not against this Rifle although it would be similar to Pistol /Pistol, wow.

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

If it’s longer range that P/P AND deals more damage than P/P they why have P/P in the game anymore?

For the Ricochet.

Also, it requires pointing out that the sniper rifle would be restricted to the “Sniper,” so P/P would always have use for Daredevils, and for later Thief specs. Also, P/P is like the Ranger Shortbow, Rifle would be like Ranger Long Bow, you can have both.

Ricochet is no longer a trait.

P/P is power, Rifle is power so nothing like ranger shortbow and longbow. What you are saying is that this Sniper spec will have a weapon that is superior to P/P and P/P will be useless for it. And you are OK with it.

And off-topic, you were so against a Sword for Elementalists because it would be similar to Dagger. But not against this Rifle although it would be similar to Pistol /Pistol, wow.

P/P is actually a Hybrid set…… can be built for power or Condi you just see more power builds because Unload spam..

BlaqueFyre.5678:

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

If it’s longer range that P/P AND deals more damage than P/P they why have P/P in the game anymore?

For the Ricochet.

Also, it requires pointing out that the sniper rifle would be restricted to the “Sniper,” so P/P would always have use for Daredevils, and for later Thief specs. Also, P/P is like the Ranger Shortbow, Rifle would be like Ranger Long Bow, you can have both.

Ricochet is no longer a trait.

P/P is power, Rifle is power so nothing like ranger shortbow and longbow. What you are saying is that this Sniper spec will have a weapon that is superior to P/P and P/P will be useless for it. And you are OK with it.

And off-topic, you were so against a Sword for Elementalists because it would be similar to Dagger. But not against this Rifle although it would be similar to Pistol /Pistol, wow.

P/P is actually a Hybrid set…… can be built for power or Condi you just see more power builds because Unload spam..

P/D is better at condi than P/P isn’kitten

maddoctor.2738:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

If it’s longer range that P/P AND deals more damage than P/P they why have P/P in the game anymore?

For the Ricochet.

Also, it requires pointing out that the sniper rifle would be restricted to the “Sniper,” so P/P would always have use for Daredevils, and for later Thief specs. Also, P/P is like the Ranger Shortbow, Rifle would be like Ranger Long Bow, you can have both.

Ricochet is no longer a trait.

P/P is power, Rifle is power so nothing like ranger shortbow and longbow. What you are saying is that this Sniper spec will have a weapon that is superior to P/P and P/P will be useless for it. And you are OK with it.

And off-topic, you were so against a Sword for Elementalists because it would be similar to Dagger. But not against this Rifle although it would be similar to Pistol /Pistol, wow.

P/P is actually a Hybrid set…… can be built for power or Condi you just see more power builds because Unload spam..

P/D is better at condi than P/P isn’kitten

P/D is a better Condi spec in some aspects but mix DD with Bound and P/P is very good as Condi since stealth access is very good which means more Condi pressure from stealth attack and if you have perplex runes and such you can have a good Condi build for WvW. Again it’s a hybrid set it’s neither our power or Condi same with D/D is Hybrid

Implying condi thief specs are part of the meta and that d/d its not better than p/p, i dont see why people are defending p/p poor situation… (off topic, we are discussing about a possible rifle, not p/p in this thread)

Nike.2631:

Ghotistyx.6942:

On the subject of sniping with a Rifle. Early in beta there were skills (Meteor Shower was one) where the skill changed the longer the skill was held down. This mechanic survived in siege weapons like the Trebuchet and Catapults. In fact, such a skill has already been used Sniper Shot

A Thief, upon stealthing, could gain access to the sniping skill. The longer it was held down the more powerful the shot becomes. However, a fully charged shot might last longer than stealth. Such an idea would be both similar and different from Warrior’s Killshot while keeping the theming of the Thief. It would certainly make for interesting interactions with current and future traits.

I have to agree that the sniper spec in the Snowball Mayhem game had some really thematically strong abilities for a “long range rifle”. And while it’s a great place to start, it also DIDN’T have a bunch of the Thief Profession’s strengths to leverage those abilities into an OP abomination.

Really, Elite Spec design is about style more that rocketing directly to the top of the charts.

As it’s been made apparent, a mid-range option that isn’t strictly optimal will be objectively useless.

Granted, “style” was only properly achieved on the reaper – the rest of HoT is so powercreeped – particularly in the case of the Daredevil – that unless the next spec is just totally and absolutely broken, it won’t be played. There is very little they can give the thief to justify not taking Dash/EA/BD/Third Dodge/healing for so little damage loss. Even my super-ultra-ego-maniacally-self-cited idea doesn’t hold a candle to the merits of the Daredevil except to buff niche builds.

Major damage for consumption of initiative would find itself requiring multiple nerfs to the core thief without additional risks and tradeoffs. Given a 25% damage modifier if dumping the full 15 I could push out a 20k Shadow Shot pretty easily in WvW.

And I’d rather not see the core thief get further butchered just because of new elite specs.

Ricochet is no longer a trait.

Ricochet will always be in our hearts.

P/P is power, Rifle is power so nothing like ranger shortbow and longbow. What you are saying is that this Sniper spec will have a weapon that is superior to P/P and P/P will be useless for it. And you are OK with it.

And again, that is not what I’m saying, because Daredevils won’t be able to use Sniper, and XPac 3 Thieves won’t be able to use Sniper, and so on. P/P will remain the goto DPS ranged attack for any Thief build that isn’t using the XPac 2 spec.

I also hope that the XPac 2 Spec actually boosts Pistol directly too, much as a Daredevil P/P is better than a vanilla P/P, there could be trait A that is vital to maximizing a Rifle build but useless for non-Rifles, and then trait B that doesn’t add much for rifles but is great for P/P and other weapons, allowing players to build towards P/P if that’s what they’d prefer.

Also, Pistol is more flexible as a weapon since you don’t have to run P/P to use one, you can use P/D, S/P, or D/P if you prefer.

And off-topic, you were so against a Sword for Elementalists because it would be similar to Dagger. But not against this Rifle although it would be similar to Pistol /Pistol, wow.

. . .

I’m actually fighting AGAINST Rifle being made too similar to Pistol. It’s some of the other guys that want to make it yet another close/medium range weapon that would solve nothing. What I want is a LONG range weapon, something that Thieves have never had since the SB nerf, and even before that SB was not great at extreme distances.

And again, Rifle is not my first choice here, I want OH Focus more, but if we are getting a Rifle, then I want it to fill the need Thieves actually have, being able to do strong damage at standoff ranges, rather than some redundant blunderbuss that just duplicates things we can already do with Pistol or SB.

I just remembered I have the Predator rifle sat on my engi unused atm, so I’m now fully in favour of thief rifle. Hopefully they don’t fluff it up.

Ohoni.6057:

What I want is a LONG range weapon, something that Thieves have never had since the SB nerf, and even before that SB was not great at extreme distances.

I think the main argument against a long range weapon for Thieves is how broken it would be in PVP settings, snipping people at 1200 range (or even 1500 as some people want a trait to reach Ranger longbow range) while using stealth. Imagine something like Kill Shot, only charging it through Stealth. Madness

How about this: when you swap to the Rifle you are revealed and stay revealed for as long as you are using it. So you can’t combine Stealth and long range snipping, in wouldn’t matter in PVE anyway and it shouldn’t be so broken in PVP

1200 or 1500 sniping from stealth doesn’t have to be broken. Is it harder to balance than other options? sure, but its not impossible. I’ve already mentioned one way a sniping stealing skill can be designed to use but not abuse stealth. It could also be designed closer to Gunflame where you fire the projectile from range, but its the Burn ticks that do the real damage. That would provide more opportunity for damage mitigation than a single packet burst.

As its been said, numbers are easy to balance. Its the theming and design that’s most important. Any concept can be broken by good or bad numbers, but they don’t determine whether its designed well or not. Pick any theme you want and then use math and intuition to determine if the performance is where it should be.

I think the main argument against a long range weapon for Thieves is how broken it would be in PVP settings, snipping people at 1200 range (or even 1500 as some people want a trait to reach Ranger longbow range) while using stealth.

Which is why there needs to be a PvP/PvE Split!!!!!!!!

The exact things that PvE needs would be problematic in PvP.

For that reason, as I’ve proposed several times in this thread, while the class should have a high burst DPS “scoped shot,” and should also have a lower DPS spammable “hip shot”, and the former ability should be lower damage in PvP than in PvE, and the latter higher in PvP so that a PvP Sniper can deal consistent spammable damage whithough having overwhelming burst.

They could also mess with relative impact of Revealed and Stealth.

But again, if they cannot resolve these issues, then Thieves should not get Rifle at all. The only point to a Thief rifle is the sniper angle. There is absolutely ZERO need, from a practical or thematic sense, for a Thief shotgun or whatever. If they cannot make a functional and balanced long range Rifle build, then they should backburner the Rifle as a Thief weapon until they can, and should instead focus on one of the numerous other weapons that could be fun for Thieves.

A potential elite spec that features a Shotgun Rifle and Gadgets (a la Engineer) would thematically fit perfectly as a Spec Ops aesthetic. It could even pay homage to the Commander profession in GW1. Melee Rifle can still fill niches that the Thief is missing and none of it requires gamemode splits. Especially not drastic ones.

A potential elite spec that features a Shotgun Rifle and Gadgets (a la Engineer) would thematically fit perfectly as a Spec Ops aesthetic.

Not for Thief though. No. If that;s the best they can come up with then I want OH Focus, OH Sword, and a half-dozen other weapons before they get there. Do not want.

Ghotistyx.6942:

1200 or 1500 sniping from stealth doesn’t have to be broken. Is it harder to balance than other options? sure, but its not impossible. I’ve already mentioned one way a sniping stealing skill can be designed to use but not abuse stealth. It could also be designed closer to Gunflame where you fire the projectile from range, but its the Burn ticks that do the real damage. That would provide more opportunity for damage mitigation than a single packet burst.

That’s an interesting thought. A rifle thief could be a condi build, with the ‘sniper shot’ being a big stack of bleeds or something rather than massive power damage. That would allow them to still be annoying, but anti-condition can be a counter, and it won’t have the same potential to create ‘fine one moment, dead the next’ spikes.

i dont get the ppl saying rifle is gonna be op in thief hands
ranger has LB with good burst but you aint see them running around in pvp

also p/p is more close range and faster and yet you dont see it in pvp and even wvw

ppl forget about reflects and blocks

also Daredevil wont be use in sniper as both are elite trait line so we lose the dodges abilities and the dmg buff

sniper as i see it will become more stealth approach than speed approach with lots of evades
yes it could be deadly if no one will focus the thief (as for now)
yes it should have more stealth abilities (1 more to be exactly)
yes it should have teleport ability (ditch the sb already after 4 years)
yes it will be huge dmg BUT slower one. so dps should be the same (dmg per second)

also it can buff the p/p set just by using other long range weapon with teleportation like sb
P/P is faster but initiative demanding
rifle will be slower and precise . one shot one kill. if you miss you 80% dead

can be fun

either way i hope anet will challenge themself to try to change the d/p meta to rifle one….

maddoctor.2738:

P/D is better at condi than P/P isn’kitten

Head Shot and Unload with a Venom is a strong condi mechanism in the current meta. Thanks to Pressure Striking, Head Shot is far more deadly than Shadow Strike.

What if a Thief’s Sniper Shot had a nuclear “tell?” Like what if it did a lot of damage, but took a second or more to cast, and put one of those Mordrem Sniper crosshairs over the target’s head? That way, it’d make little difference in PvE, but in PvP, it would be reasonably easy for the target to dodge or throw up a Reflect/block/etc., even if he were distracted by other opponents.

Ohoni.6057:

What if a Thief’s Sniper Shot had a nuclear “tell?” Like what if it did a lot of damage, but took a second or more to cast, and put one of those Mordrem Sniper crosshairs over the target’s head? That way, it’d make little difference in PvE, but in PvP, it would be reasonably easy for the target to dodge or throw up a Reflect/block/etc., even if he were distracted by other opponents.

you will lose the whole idea of sniper…
what if i had and icon which told me when to dodge for a specific huge burst skill…

messiah.1908:

Ohoni.6057:

What if a Thief’s Sniper Shot had a nuclear “tell?” Like what if it did a lot of damage, but took a second or more to cast, and put one of those Mordrem Sniper crosshairs over the target’s head? That way, it’d make little difference in PvE, but in PvP, it would be reasonably easy for the target to dodge or throw up a Reflect/block/etc., even if he were distracted by other opponents.

you will lose the whole idea of sniper…
what if i had and icon which told me when to dodge for a specific huge burst skill…

Yes, but the whole “problem” with a highly bursty sniper in a PvP situation is, players don’t like fighting effective thieves. I mean, no matter how much work you may have to put in to line up a successful assassination, all the opposing player sees is that a Thief appeared out of nowhere, did massive DPS to them that they could do “nothing” about, and then they were downed. Totally “unfair.” But that’s an understandable reaction. Nobody likes to feel, accurately or not, that they were defeated in a way that is out of their hands.

So a fully empowered Sniper is just never going to happen, at least not in PvP. The Snipers themselves might have a ball, they might even mange to make it “balanced” in some way that the statstics prove out that these Snipers do not have better kill ratios than other classes and are largely not gamechangers, but even so, all non-Snipers will feel that Snipers are “way too OP,” because the things Snipers are good at are massive triggers to all sorts of logical fallacies.

So the question is, what to do about that fact?

Not have Snipers at all? That’s one option. I’d like to see them, but ANet wouldn’t put them in if they caused nothing but angst among players of the other eight classes.

A significant PvE/PvP split that made Snipers much more open and direct in their attacks, like a longer range but slower P/P build? That might work well enough, they’d be annoying, but you could see them and start to counter them before they could finish you off, and that would allay the basic “I couldn’t do anything about it” complaints.

I kind of like the idea of the head target though. Yes, it lets the target know that you’re coming. Yes, it means that if a single enemy is guarding a point, you couldn’t post up, fire a massive damage shot that downs or near-downs him before he even knows you’re there and allows you to finish him off before he can get his boots on. Just put that fantasy out of your head because I don’t see it ever being offered.

But what role it does provide is as a strong scout Sniper, a very strong +1 in any fight. You post up at the back of the pack, you pick your target wisely, and you take your shot to change the flow of the battle. Your target will know he’s being targeted, and will react to that. Maybe he dodges, pops a Reflect, pops a block, etc. Well that’s fine, it means he’s burned a defense that he would have used later against one of your friends. Maybe you wait to target an enemy after you think he’s already burned his dodges and defenses, and while he sees death coming, there’s nothing he can do about it.

The crosshair provides a necessary amount of counterplay to the killshot, allowing you to use it, but allowing the opposing player to react. And of course it won’t be the only tool available to you, you’ll have other options to use, but the pressure of being able to single an enemy out and make him sweat should not be underestimated.

Ohoni.6057:

messiah.1908:

Ohoni.6057:

What if a Thief’s Sniper Shot had a nuclear “tell?” Like what if it did a lot of damage, but took a second or more to cast, and put one of those Mordrem Sniper crosshairs over the target’s head? That way, it’d make little difference in PvE, but in PvP, it would be reasonably easy for the target to dodge or throw up a Reflect/block/etc., even if he were distracted by other opponents.

you will lose the whole idea of sniper…
what if i had and icon which told me when to dodge for a specific huge burst skill…

Yes, but the whole “problem” with a highly bursty sniper in a PvP situation is, players don’t like fighting effective thieves. I mean, no matter how much work you may have to put in to line up a successful assassination, all the opposing player sees is that a Thief appeared out of nowhere, did massive DPS to them that they could do “nothing” about, and then they were downed. Totally “unfair.” But that’s an understandable reaction. Nobody likes to feel, accurately or not, that they were defeated in a way that is out of their hands.

.

you mean when i see that the enemy team has a thief and i ask the rev to spot him and pressure him.
any thief if left alone will decap or free +1 to kill fast
another example is when i play support and i see enemy thief i target him so my team will know where it is and they are ready for his burst
so with sniper the enemy team has to be more careful and to put out a counter class or build to it
this result in more rotation, more counterbuilds etc..

i dont see any wrong with that

its like you see mesmer in enemy team and you bring no condi cleanse. should we nerf mesmer build ?

and for the other things you wrote. p/p set already brings those this you mentions. it pressure the ele to use reflect and guard to use blocks. still you hardly see them in fight in pvp. why is that?
their effective dps is so low with no defense mechanism . so in 1v1 useless in most cases. in team fight they can +1 but not against reflects and blocks. so they lose again effective dps…

if sniper wont handle it. it wont be used in pvp even if the dmg is higher

Why people keep assuming that rifle will be 1 hit kill weapon? That would quickly cause backlash from community and devs would have to nerf it patch after patch until it will be trash level and people finally happy.
But something with the power of warrior rifle with increased range is completely fine (keep in mind how squishy thieves are compared to warriors).

As someone mentioned before, rangers have 1500 range and nobody is really complaining about it, so why should thief be any different? Gap closers are in game for a reason. Shooting from stealth? Anyone (and I really mean anyone) can do it provided they manage to enter stealth (and we all know thieves aren’t special when it comes to entering stealth). It’s nothing special, and you get revealed after your hit.

Many of you already complaining about spec without even seeing it in action and without even knowing we will get rifle as next weapon.

I’m with Martin here. there seems to be a weird thing where half the detractors are going “but it’d suck!” while the others are going “but it’d be too powerful!”

Why? Why would it be either? I can’t really see them making a weapon we won’t be happy to use, unless it turns into another druid staff, which seems unlikely.

you mean when i see that the enemy team has a thief and i ask the rev to spot him and pressure him.
any thief if left alone will decap or free +1 to kill fast
another example is when i play support and i see enemy thief i target him so my team will know where it is and they are ready for his burst
so with sniper the enemy team has to be more careful and to put out a counter class or build to it
this result in more rotation, more counterbuilds etc..

You don’t have to agree, I’m just explaining why a mega-burst range option won’t happen in PvP, not asking for agreement.

martin.1653:

Why people keep assuming that rifle will be 1 hit kill weapon? That would quickly cause backlash from community and devs would have to nerf it patch after patch until it will be trash level and people finally happy.
But something with the power of warrior rifle with increased range is completely fine (keep in mind how squishy thieves are compared to warriors).

As someone mentioned before, rangers have 1500 range and nobody is really complaining about it, so why should thief be any different? Gap closers are in game for a reason. Shooting from stealth? Anyone (and I really mean anyone) can do it provided they manage to enter stealth (and we all know thieves aren’t special when it comes to entering stealth). It’s nothing special, and you get revealed after your hit.

Many of you already complaining about spec without even seeing it in action and without even knowing we will get rifle as next weapon.

Typically the association to a “sniper” involves firing one shot and killing your target right then and there.

Doing this from stealth is just busted. Bring a full zerk berserker GF friend maximizing damage into WvW, have him run SoF or other major adrenaline sources, and play pure support to give him stealth in combat. Seems strong, right? Now give the warrior permanent stealth access and no need to build adrenaline. That’s effectively the sniper concept in a nutshell.

A comparison to the ranger isn’t a proper one, either, since it both has less scaling damage sources for its bursts than the thief does, and its bursts are all primarily multi-hit channels, revealing the player from stealth and allowing for the enemy to dodge and negate most of the damage. A single burst from stealth doesn’t allow this.

Stealth before the shot isn’t the issue. Its that Thief is hands down the SINGLE BEST DISSENGAGE PROFESSION IN THE GAME.

The only thing remotely keeping them in balance is that for the most part they have to dive in to make kills. That’s the risk for the substantial reward. Eliminate that risk, and you deserve NO rewards.

Nike.2631:

Stealth before the shot isn’t the issue. Its that Thief is hands down the SINGLE BEST DISSENGAGE PROFESSION IN THE GAME.

The only thing remotely keeping them in balance is that for the most part they have to dive in to make kills. That’s the risk for the substantial reward. Eliminate that risk, and you deserve NO rewards.

Good players already do that. A little while ago when i was playing my necromancer, a viper/minions build that normally completely destroys thieves (and the majority of other classes), I got stomped on all match by a D/P thief that would blitz me and my teammates before moving on. Sometimes I’d see her coming and get my death shroud up, and then she’d still kill me because Death Shroud doesn’t offer enough protection against the kind of madness a great thief is capable of. Then, of course, there’s the recent Magnum Opus 2, which shows what a thief is capable of with the right build, quick fingers, and picking your fights.

The trick here is that thieves are a skill based class. Bad thieves are cannon fodder at best, and at worst they’re entirely useless cretins who actually help the enemy team by dying at bad times. good thieves are hard to pin down, capable of serious disruption, and will tear you apart if you don’t lock them down and deny their burst. Great thieves just blitz everyone they come across, potentially even in team fights if they’re using a more AoE focused weapon such as staff.

The only change giving thieves access to a powerful slow shot rifle would do is bring up the skill floor so that the crappy thieves can contribute in a meaningful way because they can stay far enough out not to risk getting slaughtered and do enough damage to make a kill now and then. That, to me, is a good thing.

DeceiverX.8361:

martin.1653:

Why people keep assuming that rifle will be 1 hit kill weapon? That would quickly cause backlash from community and devs would have to nerf it patch after patch until it will be trash level and people finally happy.
But something with the power of warrior rifle with increased range is completely fine (keep in mind how squishy thieves are compared to warriors).

As someone mentioned before, rangers have 1500 range and nobody is really complaining about it, so why should thief be any different? Gap closers are in game for a reason. Shooting from stealth? Anyone (and I really mean anyone) can do it provided they manage to enter stealth (and we all know thieves aren’t special when it comes to entering stealth). It’s nothing special, and you get revealed after your hit.

Many of you already complaining about spec without even seeing it in action and without even knowing we will get rifle as next weapon.

Typically the association to a “sniper” involves firing one shot and killing your target right then and there.

Doing this from stealth is just busted. Bring a full zerk berserker GF friend maximizing damage into WvW, have him run SoF or other major adrenaline sources, and play pure support to give him stealth in combat. Seems strong, right? Now give the warrior permanent stealth access and no need to build adrenaline. That’s effectively the sniper concept in a nutshell.

A comparison to the ranger isn’t a proper one, either, since it both has less scaling damage sources for its bursts than the thief does, and its bursts are all primarily multi-hit channels, revealing the player from stealth and allowing for the enemy to dodge and negate most of the damage. A single burst from stealth doesn’t allow this.

Ok, then call it ‘Long-range-gun-guy’ so it won’t be associated with 15k crits. People here are making funeral for the spec before it even got announced based on assumptions like yours. Spec could be bleed/vuln/utility oriented, not pure raw killing power.
Gunflame already does unholy crits, but it’s balanced nevertheless. Sure, you might be the unlucky zerker eating the load every once in a while in WvW, but many classes have easy access to one-shot combos without too much hassle. But there is usually large caveat to that – they are one trick pony and we all know one trick ponies aren’t really meta.
And since you mention perma stealth, tell me please how would rifle thief have that? If there isn’t stealth skill on the weapon itself like CnD is, then there will be little to none stealth with the spec. And pretty sure they wouldn’t give smoke field access to rifle (and even with it, you can’t leap as you won’t have Daredevil).

In close range people would probably just switch to D/P and finish the job rifle started.

Nike.2631:

Stealth before the shot isn’t the issue. Its that Thief is hands down the SINGLE BEST DISSENGAGE PROFESSION IN THE GAME.

The only thing remotely keeping them in balance is that for the most part they have to dive in to make kills. That’s the risk for the substantial reward. Eliminate that risk, and you deserve NO rewards.

This statement is actually slightly funny. Ask yourself: why does thief need so much disengage to begin with?
Easy, if it stays in fray too long it dies. If someone just looks at you angrily you lose half your hp. Sneeze and you’re dead. You can’t have long range rifle and then expect no defensives whatsoever.

martin.1653:

Ok, then call it ‘Long-range-gun-guy’ so it won’t be associated with 15k crits. People here are making funeral for the spec before it even got announced based on assumptions like yours. Spec could be bleed/vuln/utility oriented, not pure raw killing power.
Gunflame already does unholy crits, but it’s balanced nevertheless. Sure, you might be the unlucky zerker eating the load every once in a while in WvW, but many classes have easy access to one-shot combos without too much hassle. But there is usually large caveat to that – they are one trick pony and we all know one trick ponies aren’t really meta.

Yea, and GF is balanced why? Because of its huge visual tells. Take those away and it’s ridiculously overpowered. Oh wait, that’s what stealth conveniently does.

martin.1653:

And since you mention perma stealth, tell me please how would rifle thief have that? If there isn’t stealth skill on the weapon itself like CnD is, then there will be little to none stealth with the spec. And pretty sure they wouldn’t give smoke field access to rifle (and even with it, you can’t leap as you won’t have Daredevil).

In close range people would probably just switch to D/P and finish the job rifle started.

That’s exactly it, you answered your own question: D/P + SA already achieves permanent stealth uptime. No elite spec needed, best melee set already used as alternate or even as the main weapon aside from engage. Just stack 12s of stealth and swap rifle OOC. Permanent stealth and crazy engages.

So then what, force reveal on the snipe? Then it’s pretty horrible without synergy to reveal, and if you provide that, now you’ve got what I proposed to begin with, except moved to a rework of the profession mechanic for more diversity/flavor, since then D/P and Rifle aren’t both effectively required.

Quite honestly, anyone thinking the Daredevil won’t ever not be meta unless it’s massively nerfed/new content is ridiculously and game-breakingly-creeped is vastly under-valuing the Daredevil.

I do think that if they make a long range DPS spec, part of the core kit should be something that reduces the Thief’s mobility in exchange for better ability to stand and fight. Even a “melee” Sniper could benefit from that if played right, but a highly mobile ranged Sniper could be too problematic.

Yea, and GF is balanced why? Because of its huge visual tells. Take those away and it’s ridiculously overpowered. Oh wait, that’s what stealth conveniently does.

That’s why I suggested giving the scoped shot a Mordrem Sniper style overhead tell. Even if you’re stealthed and they don’t know where it’s coming from, they know it’s coming and can react.

Ohoni.6057:

I do think that if they make a long range DPS spec, part of the core kit should be something that reduces the Thief’s mobility in exchange for better ability to stand and fight. Even a “melee” Sniper could benefit from that if played right, but a highly mobile ranged Sniper could be too problematic.

That’s something I’d actually go for, myself.; it’s actually something I simply assumed would be a thing if they did do a sniper rifle setup.

For the auto-attack, I’m thinking you could still move, sure, but the other skills would likely have high grade effects in exchange for making you stop moving while the attack animation goes off – risky business for a thief, but potentially valuable if the attacks are good enough. It fits the nature of the thief due to the high-risk, high-reward sort of playstyle the class encourages, just in a different form than typical. It’d encourage thinking about your position and where would be safe to set down for a moment to take action. I actually really like the sound of that.

DeceiverX.8361:

Yea, and GF is balanced why? Because of its huge visual tells. Take those away and it’s ridiculously overpowered. Oh wait, that’s what stealth conveniently does.

Thief has stealth, warrior has immunity to everything. So there’s that. And warrior has double hp. And armour.

No matter the GF visual tell, if you’re not paying attention to the warrior you gonna get shot. Same thing with any one-shot build. If you’re focused on something/someone else you will get killed no matter how long they wind up their attack.

For the auto-attack, I’m thinking you could still move, sure, but the other skills would likely have high grade effects in exchange for making you stop moving while the attack animation goes off – risky business for a thief, but potentially valuable if the attacks are good enough.

But remember that it has to go beyond just the rifle weapon. That’s the flexibility, positive and negative, that elite specs allow over just handing the rifle to a vanilla build. If all the Rifle does is root you while firing or something, then a player could just go Rifle/Shortbow, fight until they’re at risk, swap, and start dashing and #5-ing, and using Shadowstep utilities, and dropping stealths, and things like that to get out of dodge.

To make Snipers strong without being OP, they may have to actively reduce the Theif’s innate movement options, like giving some penalty to any shadowstepping, or applying a temporary debuff in which you cannot shadowstep, applying reveal to prevent Stealth, things like that. It would mean that you couldn’t engage in the usual tactics while playing as a Sniper.

That may not be the only route available, but it’s one that might work.

Of course the class would need to offer benefits to all builds, not just rifle builds, but these benefits would be in making thieves stronger somehow in a direct fight, so they would less need to scurry off. One thing I’ve been playing around with is the ability to “steal ammo.” Instead of shadowstepping to a target and picking up a bundle to use, Steal would be changed to leave you in place, reducing mobility, and not create a “stolen” bundle, but would instead create a “pack of initiative,” perhaps 5 Ini that you can activate at will. This would allow Snipers to burn Initiative much faster than other classes, especially when paired with other traits.

No matter the GF visual tell, if you’re not paying attention to the warrior you gonna get shot. Same thing with any one-shot build. If you’re focused on something/someone else you will get killed no matter how long they wind up their attack.

That’s why the overhead tell would be good, you don’t need to be paying attention to the Thief, you don’t even have to know where he is, you’d just see the target and could react accordingly.

Ohoni.6057:

For the auto-attack, I’m thinking you could still move, sure, but the other skills would likely have high grade effects in exchange for making you stop moving while the attack animation goes off – risky business for a thief, but potentially valuable if the attacks are good enough.

But remember that it has to go beyond just the rifle weapon. That’s the flexibility, positive and negative, that elite specs allow over just handing the rifle to a vanilla build. If all the Rifle does is root you while firing or something, then a player could just go Rifle/Shortbow, fight until they’re at risk, swap, and start dashing and #5-ing, and using Shadowstep utilities, and dropping stealths, and things like that to get out of dodge.

To make Snipers strong without being OP, they may have to actively reduce the Theif’s innate movement options, like giving some penalty to any shadowstepping, or applying a temporary debuff in which you cannot shadowstep, applying reveal to prevent Stealth, things like that. It would mean that you couldn’t engage in the usual tactics while playing as a Sniper.

That may not be the only route available, but it’s one that might work.

Of course the class would need to offer benefits to all builds, not just rifle builds, but these benefits would be in making thieves stronger somehow in a direct fight, so they would less need to scurry off. One thing I’ve been playing around with is the ability to “steal ammo.” Instead of shadowstepping to a target and picking up a bundle to use, Steal would be changed to leave you in place, reducing mobility, and not create a “stolen” bundle, but would instead create a “pack of initiative,” perhaps 5 Ini that you can activate at will. This would allow Snipers to burn Initiative much faster than other classes, especially when paired with other traits.

No matter the GF visual tell, if you’re not paying attention to the warrior you gonna get shot. Same thing with any one-shot build. If you’re focused on something/someone else you will get killed no matter how long they wind up their attack.

That’s why the overhead tell would be good, you don’t need to be paying attention to the Thief, you don’t even have to know where he is, you’d just see the target and could react accordingly.

Just something to note, having stealth and a long range damage skill could be more balanced than you realise, simply because taking this elite spec locks you out of daredevil. So what you should be thinking about is what would core thief look like with a rifle. This has several repercussions:

1) Mobility and evades will be significantly lower than what most thieves are probably used to by now.
2) Reveals are probably going to mean death for this spec, which combined with the lack of defenses on core thief means any druid with sic ‘em will likely hard counter this build.
3) You can’t play pulmonary impact for interrupt damage, so if the spec is CC/support based it loses that damage source.
4) This build will have zero condi cleanse outside of stealth, due to not being able to take EA from daredevil and core thief being too reliant on SA for cleanse. See 2 on reveals.
5) Rifle thieves will have to take that spec, leaving a choice of two from DA, SA and trickery. So it’s either going to be glass or lose significant damage modifiers to gain condi cleanse and minimal damage reduction.
6) I’m assuming that the ICD on stealth attacks was implemented with this elite spec in mind (think of the acro nerfs while daredevil was in development). So if we have a long range sniper, I’d bet that it’s boon steal will be deliberately limited, making aegis/blocks/protection/reflects much more useful vs this build.

So, if they make the rifle DPS based, they simply have to avoid giving evades, mobility or massive damage modifiers in the elite spec traits. Making the traits support/CC based (with both a power and condi line) but the weapon DPS based would be an interesting way to introduce more builds, while leaving limits on the power of a glass rifle spec.

Ohoni.6057

…
To make Snipers strong without being OP, they may have to actively reduce the Theif’s innate movement options, like giving some penalty to any shadowstepping, or applying a temporary debuff in which you cannot shadowstep, applying reveal to prevent Stealth, things like that. It would mean that you couldn’t engage in the usual tactics while playing as a Sniper.

…

That’s why the overhead tell would be good, you don’t need to be paying attention to the Thief, you don’t even have to know where he is, you’d just see the target and could react accordingly.

So, you’re saying in order for thief to get a rifle it would need to be crippled in every other possible way?

No need to pay attention to thief? Should we then just dunk every rifle thief in tar and feathers so everyone knows what to avoid?

These arguments are ridiculous. With so much power creep that happened in game, thief is the only one that in order to get somewhat strong range damage needs to be made useless on all other fronts? Pls.

martin.1653:

Ohoni.6057

…
To make Snipers strong without being OP, they may have to actively reduce the Theif’s innate movement options, like giving some penalty to any shadowstepping, or applying a temporary debuff in which you cannot shadowstep, applying reveal to prevent Stealth, things like that. It would mean that you couldn’t engage in the usual tactics while playing as a Sniper.

…

That’s why the overhead tell would be good, you don’t need to be paying attention to the Thief, you don’t even have to know where he is, you’d just see the target and could react accordingly.

So, you’re saying in order for thief to get a rifle it would need to be crippled in every other possible way?

No need to pay attention to thief? Should we then just dunk every rifle thief in tar and feathers so everyone knows what to avoid?

These arguments are ridiculous. With so much power creep that happened in game, thief is the only one that in order to get somewhat strong range damage needs to be made useless on all other fronts? Pls.

I believe he meant while using the Sniper Rifle you will have the “debuffs” and only then. No need to destroy the entire Thief profession.

It would mean that you couldn’t engage in the usual tactics while playing as a Sniper.

So, you’re saying in order for thief to get a rifle it would need to be crippled in every other possible way?

Perhaps, although Juggle makes a good point.

But I did say, this shouldn’t mean that ONLY the Rifle would be worth using. Whatever traits are in the Sniper line, some should obviously benefit Rifle, but others should benefit the other weapons as well. I would expect a D/P or D/D or S/P Sniper to play differently than a vanilla or DD version, but I would expect for there to be goodies that would allow them to fight differently in a way that is viable. Maybe more facetankiness than Thieves are used to. Maybe faster attacks. Basically stuff that would encourage a Thief to stand and fight, rather than stick and move, which would open up an entirely new playstyle using familiar attacks.

Like what if the Sniper line carried a “Gain Power based on Toughness” trait or something, and ideal Sniper builds actually encouraged building for Toughness? A Thief that would be at least as tanky as a glassy Warrior or something. I don’t want or need a class that replaces Daredevil, and if you want to play the mobile assassin striker then I think DD should remain the best at that for a while, but I could see a Sniper, even a melee one, as being a good counterpart to the DD, allowing either some other class with high mobility to play the decapper role, or allowing double-Thief teams to be highly effective too. A Sniper running scout and a DD running point could be a very formidable combination.

No need to pay attention to thief? Should we then just dunk every rifle thief in tar and feathers so everyone knows what to avoid?

As I said earlier in the thread, the point of the Thief in PvP wouldn’t be to decapitate opponents, it would be to force them to move. It would be more about the Check than the Checkmate. You wouldn’t want to sneak up to a solo guard on a none, assassinate him, and decap that node. Instead, you would want to roll in with 1-2 others, post up on the sidelines of the fight, and target enemy players, not to deal massive damage, but to force them to throw out their best defensive options, so that your team can follow up. Knowing that you could demolish them if they don’t react quickly then forces them to react quickly, making them more vulnerable to the rest of your team. And of course if you do see one who’s already used a lot of defenses, you might just pop his head off.

I see this as a useful role, a Thief threat that can be dealt with, giving the target a sense of agency in the encounter, but also one who must be dealt with, forcing the opponent’s hand.

Juggle makes an in-depth point, and don’t forget, a Thief spamming SB5 to get out of dodge is a Thief that’s not dealing damage. If all you have to do is get close to a Thief to make him stop attacking, that’s a pretty effective counterplay that doesn’t require doing anything to the Thief himself.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Juggle makes an in-depth point, and don’t forget, a Thief spamming SB5 to get out of dodge is a Thief that’s not dealing damage. If all you have to do is get close to a Thief to make him stop attacking, that’s a pretty effective counterplay that doesn’t require doing anything to the Thief himself.

Exactly this. And then on top of that some would want terrible visual tells when thief is doing attack, rooting hen attack is performed etc. Come on people, I know thief is blamed for all the woes in this game, but it’s just a rifle they are getting (maybe), not a tank.

I keep suggesting things. I am not arguing that ALL of these things would be necessary at once. I think that only some would be necessary, but it’s worth brainstorming the various options. I tend to think that if Snipers were telegraphing their decapitation strike, then maybe the fair tradeoff would be that they wouldn’t have to run when based. Maybe they could be hardy enough that they could just stand and fight off whoever comes after them.

Again, the goals are:

1. Create a ranged DPS spec that is fun for Thieves to play (although not necessarily by playing them similarly to other Thief specs).

2. Make sure that it’s not so frustrating to fight for the other classes that they throw a fit.

The important part with #2 is that other players need to feel that the fights are “fair,” that they had a reasonable ability to counter-play, and that if they lost the fight, it was because the Thief was a better player than they were, not because his moves were “cheap.”

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Just something to note, having stealth and a long range damage skill could be more balanced than you realise, simply because taking this elite spec locks you out of daredevil. So what you should be thinking about is what would core thief look like with a rifle. This has several repercussions:

1) Mobility and evades will be significantly lower than what most thieves are probably used to by now.
2) Reveals are probably going to mean death for this spec, which combined with the lack of defenses on core thief means any druid with sic ‘em will likely hard counter this build.
3) You can’t play pulmonary impact for interrupt damage, so if the spec is CC/support based it loses that damage source.
4) This build will have zero condi cleanse outside of stealth, due to not being able to take EA from daredevil and core thief being too reliant on SA for cleanse. See 2 on reveals.
5) Rifle thieves will have to take that spec, leaving a choice of two from DA, SA and trickery. So it’s either going to be glass or lose significant damage modifiers to gain condi cleanse and minimal damage reduction.
6) I’m assuming that the ICD on stealth attacks was implemented with this elite spec in mind (think of the acro nerfs while daredevil was in development). So if we have a long range sniper, I’d bet that it’s boon steal will be deliberately limited, making aegis/blocks/protection/reflects much more useful vs this build.

So, if they make the rifle DPS based, they simply have to avoid giving evades, mobility or massive damage modifiers in the elite spec traits. Making the traits support/CC based (with both a power and condi line) but the weapon DPS based would be an interesting way to introduce more builds, while leaving limits on the power of a glass rifle spec.

Ranged core thief isn’t much of an issue. I understand that the thief will not have access to Daredevil, which is why I don’t think any subsequent elites they make will be used in competitive play, unless it’s somehow made even more mobile (which I doubt). The issue is whether or not we’re seeing huge damage on a single ability come bundled with the rifle as part of this “sniper” concept that people keep asking for.

While the sacrifices to take the next elite are going to be many for the Daredevils out there, and you’re correct about general viability, the question with weight is whether or not it’s equally-bad design to make an entire weapon and potentially elite spec a gimmick. Camping in stealth bursting people from range isn’t particularly engaging, and quite frankly, coming from the already-core-thief perspective, just seems like another case of upgrading the core thief rather than providing different ways of playing it, which were the initial specialization design goals, and ones which I still think should be maintained.

Ranged core thief isn’t much of an issue. I understand that the thief will not have access to Daredevil, which is why I don’t think any subsequent elites they make will be used in competitive play, unless it’s somehow made even more mobile (which I doubt).

I don’t buy in to the idea that a Thief must be as mobile as possible to be competitive. Yes, the current Thief meta tactics rely on mobility to zip around, decap empty places, +1 fights out of nowhere, etc., but there’s nothing that says that this is the only way that a Thief can ever contribute to a team. If the new Spec is worse than DD at doing what Thieves currently do, but is better at providing Thieves some other role on the team that is also valid, then players would have no issue choosing the style that they enjoyed best.

The issue is whether or not we’re seeing huge damage on a single ability come bundled with the rifle as part of this “sniper” concept that people keep asking for.

And I assert that without such an ability, there’s just no point to the concept at all. It would be like if they gave Warriors Greatsword, but only as a soft condi, support heavy option with no real DPS to speak of. It’d just defeat the entire purpose. So I think there should be no question whatsoever of if the Sniper build should have at least one “huge damage on a single ability,” that should be taken as a given. The question is what to do to balance that ability with the rest of the class in a way that’s fun for Thief players and also tolerable for everyone else.

This massive burst shouldn’t be the only tool in the Sniper’s kitten nal, they should have plenty of other things they can do during a fight, but it is the most iconic and necessary. If they can’t get that much right, then they shouldn’t bother with Rifle at all.