Guild Wars 2

After I played some PVP again, it didn’t tanke me long to come across a new kind of thief build that seems a bit broken in my opinion.

I’m talking about the new famous 10,0,0,30,30 with S/D.

Thiefs playing with this build can barely be hit, because they have nearly perma evade either through using skill 3 or by using a doge roll, which is nearly always ready thanks to the traits and the constant vigor.

In combination with a well traited steal, they can steal up to 3 boon right at the beginning of the fight togehter with the save boons that are applied.

In case they do a wrong move they can use a stun breaker and get back to a save spot with skill 2.

Resetting the fight works well with Withdraw or Shadow Refuge
. For tough opponents you can use the Basilisk Venom.

Sounds like the perfect build, right? A bit too perfect in my opinion.

I think it’s good for better players to be harder to kill, but decent thiefs with this build are nearly impossible to kill in 1v1 situations. I tried it myself and after some practise, you are basically invincible.

I would love to hear your opinions on this build and if you know some way to counter it.

A good 2/6xx/6 (S/D or D/P) Can counter that sister build. I’ve done it numerous times. But it is very annoying to fight absolutely. Btw, Sizer just played it in ToL this is not “His” build.

~https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Guide-to-Thief-Guides/first

Arganthium was the innovator of this not so “new” build. It’s just popular because a well known Thief is using it now. It never used to be considered good, but now because of this strength rune buff. We now see a build that used to be looked down at and not used, becoming meta.

Note: All of those builds on that guide is over a year old.

After trying this build out for many hours in spvp and tpvp, I find it really fun and strong.

What made me try it out was after I was nearly killed by a keyboard turning turret engineer who was standing on the same spot in my blackpowder field while I was playing D/P. A 2v1 against a turret engineer could even be a tough fight as D/P.

Now with S/D 2/6/0/0/6, I have enough dodges and sustain to survive the turret spam, for extended durations and I can contribute way better. So far I’ve only found good S/D eles to be annoying to fight, instant high burst, instant CC’s and blinds while having high sustain. Instant CC’s followed by high damage are in general the bane of this build.

While fighting 2/0/0/6/6 thieves with D/P 2/6/0/0/6 I used to time Heartseeker to land at the end of their Flanking Strike and dodge their LS, also keep some blinds up, sword is slow to deal with blinds.

I’m not sure what’s worse, the QQ thread of the day about how someone lost to a thief so they want them removed from the game, or the people who feel the need to decide that the 2/0/0/6/6 build is or isn’t sizer’s.

He popularized it. That’s why it’s called his build. Just deal with it. I don’t care about this other random kitten who wants his name on this build.

You’re right. The build is really good, however.. if you make a mistake you get punished very badly for it. For this build to work properly, you need to be very good at it. Anyone who has taken the time to learn it and become good with it. I say hats off to them.

I’ve tried it, and I immediately missed my 6 points in Shadow Arts.

GinghamLion.3614:

I’m not sure what’s worse, the QQ thread of the day about how someone lost to a thief so they want them removed from the game, or the people who feel the need to decide that the 2/0/0/6/6 build is or isn’t sizer’s.

He popularized it. That’s why it’s called his build. Just deal with it. I don’t care about this other random kitten who wants his name on this build.

Hop off his private region

It’s not op, it’s simply so forgiving to play that even a really bad thief can shine with it.

AikijinX.6258:

GinghamLion.3614:

I’m not sure what’s worse, the QQ thread of the day about how someone lost to a thief so they want them removed from the game, or the people who feel the need to decide that the 2/0/0/6/6 build is or isn’t sizer’s.

He popularized it. That’s why it’s called his build. Just deal with it. I don’t care about this other random kitten who wants his name on this build.

Hop off his private region

You said it yourself, it never used to be good. Who cares if you’re the guy who’s been playing the build for a year, it was never good. Now that it’s in the meta, it’s there because sizer brought it there (oh wait, that’s what meta means. someone who has publicity attached to their name started doing it and it trickled down to the masses, holy kitten, guess it’s his build).

Zach.3264:

You’re right. The build is really good, however.. if you make a mistake you get punished very badly for it. For this build to work properly, you need to be very good at it. Anyone who has taken the time to learn it and become good with it. I say hats off to them.

I’ve tried it, and I immediately missed my 6 points in Shadow Arts.

Why are you even comparing this build to a 6 points Shadow Arts build?

No one gives a kitten who’s build it is. If we really wanted to get technical, as all content is designed by Arenanet, they own the rights to everything related.
As for this thread, yea it’s a bit powerful but manageable. Withdraw is a bit low of a cd but I honestly could care less. The amount of evades is good but thieves need it or they would be chewed up. SB 3 got some changes so that cut down most of the evades and the rest aren’t too bad. Maybe the sword 3 could use a bit more initiative to promote more thoughtful gameplay.
In my opinion other traits/utilities need some changes or “buffs” so that there’s a bit more build variety. Typical builds have been running 30 deep in trickery and mug since forever while always running sf, ss and inf sig. Basi venom is just the norm so it’s whatever. Then again this isn’t just for thief though, all classes need more variety.

AikijinX.6258:

GinghamLion.3614:

I’m not sure what’s worse, the QQ thread of the day about how someone lost to a thief so they want them removed from the game, or the people who feel the need to decide that the 2/0/0/6/6 build is or isn’t sizer’s.

He popularized it. That’s why it’s called his build. Just deal with it. I don’t care about this other random kitten who wants his name on this build.

Hop off his private region

GinghamLion.3614:

You said it yourself, it never used to be good. Who cares if you’re the guy who’s been playing the build for a year, it was never good. Now that it’s in the meta, it’s there because sizer brought it there (oh wait, that’s what meta means. someone who has publicity attached to their name started doing it and it trickled down to the masses, holy kitten, guess it’s his build).

Pot, meet kettle.

Any who... Just because Bob made a build that Fred was seen using at a later date, doesn’t mean that Fred took the idea. He may have just had the same idea at a later date. Therefore, it’s not necessarily a question of "which one person made it"; it may have been made by both, thus rendering arguments over who’s name to put to it quite pointless. (And before you think to be smart and throw "pot kettle" back at me, I must point out I have said nothing implicitly or explicitly negative toward entering the debate. To me, "pointless" is neither bad nor good with respect to the pointless act.)

Zord.6130:

Why are you even comparing this build to a 6 points Shadow Arts build?

Such a comparison may be warranted. Indeed the argument against using 30 shadow arts for a D/P or S/D build and against those crying about those who did use them, was that the benefits come from stealth, and while you sit in stealth you are not dealing damage, and therefore allowing your opponent time to breathe and their skills (including heals which are likely stronger than yours) to cool down. The point was that it wasn’t able to maintain sufficient offense to beat an equally skilled opponent using a build generally considered decent.

The same argument can be made here, in that while you dodge, you cannot damage (unless you have caltrops, but even then it’s trivial when you aren’t built for condition damage). If you’re going to spam dodge, sure their skills are evaded and enter cooldown, but you’re exchanging one of your resources for one of their’s (in this case endurance for skill cool down). Such is the same as ranger spamming their evades, guardian and warriors blocking, mesmers hiding behind clones, rangers transferring damage to pet, thieves using blinds, mesmers and necromancers spamming interrupts, any class spamming stuns/knockdowns, and necromancers gaining life force. The difference? It’s annoying to miss, and annoyance leads to complaining. The only time spamming dodge is beneficial is to buy time for your heal or help to arrive. Similarly, if you drain your initiative spamming flanking strike and larcenous strike, you’re left with no evasive attacks, and any kiting to avoid damage results in the same as the above: the opponent has breathing room and skills cooling down.

Let’s face it. Thief combat looks cool. Attacks being evaded or missed is more annoying than having them blocked or interrupted. Annoyance leads to anger and frustration, which leads to exaggeration of the facts. Looking cool and being annoying becomes "I don’t want to fight this", exaggerated it becomes "I can’t fight this", and then they rage about it. That’s why people have always raged and cried about thieves, even when other classes are achieving the same effect by a different means. Finally, when it is complained about, "I can’t fight this" gets exaggerated once more so as to make the crier sound the victim, and not like they were just outplayed. It becomes: "overpowered".

You can’t say "spamming dodge doesn’t make you good" but also advocate that "anyone can be good with this build because of all the dodges". Also remember that just because you couldn’t win, you didn’t lose unless you actually lost. If they couldn’t kill you either, they could just as easily complain about you.

Edit: Fixed a tag issue preventing some of the quote from showing.

Sizer is using someone else’s build during a time where it is most effective.

Sizer isn’t that great. He just used the right build at the right time.

The point that bothers me at this build is the fact that it can be played by a pretty inexperienced player resulting in very “good game play”. Also I remember Anet having said something about too much dodge rolls and spamming it with vigor. In my opinion that’s not balanced at all, so I wanted to throw it out into discussion because Anet is constantly balancing the game and they definately should have a look at this particular build.

By the way, I have tried the build myself and played several hours with it in Solo Queue and as someone having played all classes quite a while I’m pretty sure this one is the best so far and I’d also go as far as saying it is OP. I’m just shocked how easy it is and don’t really like it being THAT easy.

There are of cource some really good builds for every class, but this build is really insane…I mean try it yourself and see… Killing a tanky mesmer is easymode compared to fighting a decend glassy thief running this build. Not even to start talking about soldier gear…

GinghamLion.3614:

AikijinX.6258:

GinghamLion.3614:

I’m not sure what’s worse, the QQ thread of the day about how someone lost to a thief so they want them removed from the game, or the people who feel the need to decide that the 2/0/0/6/6 build is or isn’t sizer’s.

He popularized it. That’s why it’s called his build. Just deal with it. I don’t care about this other random kitten who wants his name on this build.

Hop off his private region

You said it yourself, it never used to be good. Who cares if you’re the guy who’s been playing the build for a year, it was never good. Now that it’s in the meta, it’s there because sizer brought it there (oh wait, that’s what meta means. someone who has publicity attached to their name started doing it and it trickled down to the masses, holy kitten, guess it’s his build).

You must be his lover or something. Not sure why you feel the need to defend him so much. Not judging or anything. It is cute.

Its wierd and sad how the Thief players are the only ones that always try to make other thieves looks bad or worse than they are.

Its like they cant admit when someones is good or even better than themselves.

style.6173:

GinghamLion.3614:

AikijinX.6258:

GinghamLion.3614:

I’m not sure what’s worse, the QQ thread of the day about how someone lost to a thief so they want them removed from the game, or the people who feel the need to decide that the 2/0/0/6/6 build is or isn’t sizer’s.

He popularized it. That’s why it’s called his build. Just deal with it. I don’t care about this other random kitten who wants his name on this build.

Hop off his private region

You said it yourself, it never used to be good. Who cares if you’re the guy who’s been playing the build for a year, it was never good. Now that it’s in the meta, it’s there because sizer brought it there (oh wait, that’s what meta means. someone who has publicity attached to their name started doing it and it trickled down to the masses, holy kitten, guess it’s his build).

You must be his lover or something. Not sure why you feel the need to defend him so much. Not judging or anything. It is cute.

Sizer never said it was his build, he’s not the one crying over it’s name so I’m no actually defending anyone. But, there have been other posts claiming “it’s my build I played it when it wasn’t good”

Impact.2780:

GinghamLion.3614:

AikijinX.6258:

GinghamLion.3614:

I’m not sure what’s worse, the QQ thread of the day about how someone lost to a thief so they want them removed from the game, or the people who feel the need to decide that the 2/0/0/6/6 build is or isn’t sizer’s.

He popularized it. That’s why it’s called his build. Just deal with it. I don’t care about this other random kitten who wants his name on this build.

Hop off his private region

You said it yourself, it never used to be good. Who cares if you’re the guy who’s been playing the build for a year, it was never good. Now that it’s in the meta, it’s there because sizer brought it there (oh wait, that’s what meta means. someone who has publicity attached to their name started doing it and it trickled down to the masses, holy kitten, guess it’s his build).

Pot, meet kettle.

It seems you missed what I was saying, or you don’t understand the pot/kettle idiom.

What you all aren’t understanding is what it means for something to be “in the meta” it better yet, how things actually end up there.

For a much better example, look at the much larger online game, league of legends. When dyrus uses a new top lane build in the LCS, it doesn’t matter AT ALL who has used it before him. He’s on a stage, in a tournament, in front of hundreds of thousands of people. So when the rest of the community that play X champion starts using this build, it’s because dyrus popularized it.

NOW BRINGING THIS TO CURRENT EVENTS:

Sizer used this build in a tournament that was popular enough in the guild wars community that when he did well, people started referring to it as his build. It’s as simple as that.

This is what the meta is, deal with it. If you want to shake things up. Why don’t you join the tournament of legends and use an unpopular build.

you know if you want ppl to call your name… just sign up weekly tournaments and win it or even up coming ToL

calling other ppl bad while yourself haven’t done anything….. it’s pathetic . . .

btw while evading you still contest the point which SA can’t do that

I like to gravitate to overpowered things… it makes me feel like a big man.

So… I will try this one out as I have generally steered clear of x/x/x/6/6 builds up until now as they make you look like you are permanently about to get your head bashed in as you leap around like a button mashing muppet.

However – I see on the build suggestion that is a berserker amulet. That really the best option on this one?

Well, of course it’s hard to kill, you’ve taken trait trees dedicated to survivability and utility. That’s like complaining a bunker guardian is hard to kill when their build revolves around being hard to kill. The issue is the much higher damage you can now achieve in PvP with that build.

The entire reason it’s meta is because the fire and air sigil change and the ferocity change in PvP meant we could get good damage in PvP without critical strikes. Arganthium tried for a long time before that patch to get this build popular to no effect, as has been pointed out. Who actually came up with the build is a side issue: investment in critical strikes was needed before the patch for thief to fulful it’s role as a high dps roamer, now it is not, and that’s what makes the build viable.

The other reason this build is strong is that it directly counters the boon heavy meta that’s going on atm. People use strength runes for silly stacks of might, so of course a build that steals those stacks is going to be strong.

I personally think it’s only that strong in the hands of a very skilled player, I regularly get my kitten handed to me when using this spec by players that simply outplay me.

If you want to change something then by all means do, but nerfing 2/0/0/6/6 S/D thieves because of the sigil/rune/ferocity change makes as much sense as nerfing D/D ele because strength runes made that spec much stronger.

Walker.3056:

Its wierd and sad how the Thief players are the only ones that always try to make other thieves looks bad or worse than they are.

Its like they cant admit when someones is good or even better than themselves.

Pretty much this.

GinghamLion.3614:

It seems you missed what I was saying, or you don’t understand the pot/kettle idiom.

Not at all. Apologies, some parts seemed to have been omitted from my post. I don’t know how that happened. I intended to quote this with it:

GinghamLion.3614:

I’m not sure what’s worse, the QQ thread of the day about how someone lost to a thief so they want them removed from the game, or the people who feel the need to decide that the 2/0/0/6/6 build is or isn’t sizer’s.

He popularized it. That’s why it’s called his build. Just deal with it. I don’t care about this other random kitten who wants his name on this build.

You implied the act of discussing to decide whether the build is or isn’t that guy’s is negative, and the downward talking manner implicitly placed you above the act. Basically it was tantamount to: "this is bad and should not be done". Then you proceeded to do it yourself.

Do note I only said it once; this is just an explanation. It remains merely an observation stated, not an attack in any way.

This thread should get locked soon lol.

I prefer the mine
Not notice my video is the first of many, your opinion helps me a lot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b63b6ngXBEU

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Well, of course it’s hard to kill, you’ve taken trait trees dedicated to survivability and utility. That’s like complaining a bunker guardian is hard to kill when their build revolves around being hard to kill. The issue is the much higher damage you can now achieve in PvP with that build.

The entire reason it’s meta is because the fire and air sigil change and the ferocity change in PvP meant we could get good damage in PvP without critical strikes. Arganthium tried for a long time before that patch to get this build popular to no effect, as has been pointed out. Who actually came up with the build is a side issue: investment in critical strikes was needed before the patch for thief to fulful it’s role as a high dps roamer, now it is not, and that’s what makes the build viable.

The other reason this build is strong is that it directly counters the boon heavy meta that’s going on atm. People use strength runes for silly stacks of might, so of course a build that steals those stacks is going to be strong.

I personally think it’s only that strong in the hands of a very skilled player, I regularly get my kitten handed to me when using this spec by players that simply outplay me.

If you want to change something then by all means do, but nerfing 2/0/0/6/6 S/D thieves because of the sigil/rune/ferocity change makes as much sense as nerfing D/D ele because strength runes made that spec much stronger.

This! This! One Hundred times this! xD

FYI sizer changed his rune setup. He’s using Pack runes instead of strength and using Hard to Catch master trait.

Fyi for anyone struggling against the build, Sizer’s Build is fairly sustainy, so like any other sustain build the best way to counter it is via spike damage.

The difference between this build and say a Warrior build is that a thief will have more access to endure pain (evades), but less survivability when it’s not available.

For whatever class you’re playing learn how to time your spikes, and learn what the windows are available for applying damage.

It’s important to know that perma vigor means recharging your dodges every 5 seconds. Vigor + feline grace means recharging dodges every 3.5 seconds. A thief can Dodge 3 times in a row with this setup, if they have signet of agility they can Dodge 6 times in a row if they use the signet.

The other important thing to know is that, after flanking strike there’s about 1.5 seconds between evade frames and spamming the skill.

The final important thing to know is that after an infiltrator’s return to teleport away a thief is likely to feel safe for 1-2 seconds. So you potentially have another window here to utilize depending upon your cool-downs.

Basically analyze the player, keep these Windows in mind, and don’t worry too much about counting dodges, stay focused on when you have a window of opportunity.

This build is still on a thief so it will always have the option of running away.

Hachiman.2470:

FYI sizer changed his rune setup. He’s using Pack runes instead of strength and using Hard to Catch master trait.

Pack runes I can understand, but Hard to Catch? Interesting.

Shockwave.1230:

Fyi for anyone struggling against the build, Sizer’s Build is fairly sustainy, so like any other sustain build the best way to counter it is via spike damage.

The difference between this build and say a Warrior build is that a thief will have more access to endure pain (evades), but less survivability when it’s not available.

For whatever class you’re playing learn how to time your spikes, and learn what the windows are available for applying damage.

It’s important to know that perma vigor means recharging your dodges every 5 seconds. Vigor + feline grace means recharging dodges every 3.5 seconds. A thief can Dodge 3 times in a row with this setup, if they have signet of agility they can Dodge 6 times in a row if they use the signet.

The other important thing to know is that, after flanking strike there’s about 1.5 seconds between evade frames and spamming the skill.

The final important thing to know is that after an infiltrator’s return to teleport away a thief is likely to feel safe for 1-2 seconds. So you potentially have another window here to utilize depending upon your cool-downs.

Basically analyze the player, keep these Windows in mind, and don’t worry too much about counting dodges, stay focused on when you have a window of opportunity.

This build is still on a thief so it will always have the option of running away.

This highlights the problem with this build. To counter you need to play well above the thief who can just spam evades the reset/disengage.

This build is just as kittened as your standard cheese builds that are OP cept it’s viable in a tPvP setting

Zacchary.6183:

Sizer is using someone else’s build during a time where it is most effective.

Sizer isn’t that great. He just used the right build at the right time.

See, I find the whole “build” idea in this game a bit funny.

Since they binded skills to weapons, gave us a hand full of weapons, traits and stated-gear… I kind of always felt that every build is a clone of another build…
One weapon set will “hop” in one way, another weapon set will “hop” in another way… while gear provides the “robustness” (more damage/survivability), traits seem to provide how “smooth” ((defensive/offensive?)utility almost…) the weapon set hops…. At the end of the day the weapon set you picked will determine mainly how you “hop”. To a point it feels like it’s already been pre-cookie-cut even before you made your own version.

Kind of hard to explain. But I sort of wish they allowed us to at least choose from a pool of weapon skills.

I’ve seen people change 1 utility skill or literally 1 trait and post it like he has just invented something completely new (detailed instructions on how to play “his” way).

X.x O well. Not trying to undermine the Sizer guy or anything.

T raw.4658:

Shockwave.1230:

Fyi for anyone struggling against the build, Sizer’s Build is fairly sustainy, so like any other sustain build the best way to counter it is via spike damage.

The difference between this build and say a Warrior build is that a thief will have more access to endure pain (evades), but less survivability when it’s not available.

For whatever class you’re playing learn how to time your spikes, and learn what the windows are available for applying damage.

It’s important to know that perma vigor means recharging your dodges every 5 seconds. Vigor + feline grace means recharging dodges every 3.5 seconds. A thief can Dodge 3 times in a row with this setup, if they have signet of agility they can Dodge 6 times in a row if they use the signet.

The other important thing to know is that, after flanking strike there’s about 1.5 seconds between evade frames and spamming the skill.

The final important thing to know is that after an infiltrator’s return to teleport away a thief is likely to feel safe for 1-2 seconds. So you potentially have another window here to utilize depending upon your cool-downs.

Basically analyze the player, keep these Windows in mind, and don’t worry too much about counting dodges, stay focused on when you have a window of opportunity.

This build is still on a thief so it will always have the option of running away.

This highlights the problem with this build. To counter you need to play well above the thief who can just spam evades the reset/disengage.

This build is just as kittened as your standard cheese builds that are OP cept it’s viable in a tPvP setting

A thief can always disengage and reset unless he/she chooses to give up the initiative/cooldowns of mobility for more damage. That is not exclusive to Sizer’s build. Normally thieves can have a lot of utility, damage, and mobility in combination. What this build adds to that combination is sustain, which is unlike any other build that currently exists, besides the meta D/D ele (which has a tradeoff of some mobility for team support).

AikijinX.6258:

A good 2/6xx/6 (S/D or D/P) Can counter that sister build. I’ve done it numerous times. But it is very annoying to fight absolutely. Btw, Sizer just played it in ToL this is not “His” build.

~https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Guide-to-Thief-Guides/first

Arganthium was the innovator of this not so “new” build. It’s just popular because a well known Thief is using it now. It never used to be considered good, but now because of this strength rune buff. We now see a build that used to be looked down at and not used, becoming meta.

Note: All of those builds on that guide is over a year old.

he doesn’t run arganthium’s build… Sizer doesnt run roll for initiative, he runs agility sig. He doesn’t run quick recovery or assassin’s reward. He runs pain response and power inertia. He doesn’t run lyssa, he runs pack/strength (usually runs strength, but has been trying pack runes). Yeh the trait diversification is the same, but its not the same traits.

Sizer has been running that build for a very long time, you can even argue that he was running it before Argan put this build up (even though it’s irrelevant because it’s not the same build utility wise and trait wise).

Shad’s pistol whip setup can beat it if played nicely. He’s done it alot in king of the hill while sizer has streamed before.

@ Title, no. I see many fools running it, and failing. Sometimes they get something going but they are often played by awful players, and when focus fired after jumping into a group fight have to run constantly. It’s basically a kid trying to join an adult fight club, just gets chased out. And yes this is from watching more than 1 person run this “sizer” build or whoever the kitten chipped it into stone.

In the right hands, no its still not op. It’s just the person knows how to play the game well so they’d probably be good with any build.