Guild Wars 2

Just gonna mention that there was a time, during S/D, when Thief was a farpoint assaulter to 1v1 Hambow (mostly) and to chase off the other thief. Both aspects are gone, thieves aren’t even 1v1ing anymore, so I don’t think “hurr durr +1ing and mobility” is a valid argument for not buffing the 1v1 potential.

laquito.5269:

Just gonna mention that there was a time, during S/D, when Thief was a farpoint assaulter to 1v1 Hambow (mostly) and to chase off the other thief. Both aspects are gone, thieves aren’t even 1v1ing anymore, so I don’t think “hurr durr +1ing and mobility” is a valid argument for not buffing the 1v1 potential.

Thanks for making an intelligent post. Imo thief still has a good amount of 1v1 potential with dp , while not as much as S/D used to it’s still good. It’s just not efficient to do so, as you could be +1ing and decaping. I don’t think the answer is to buff thief if thief truly is too weak to 1v1 in this meta, as I don’t believe in anet’s ability to intelligently buff someone because it could and usually does make the class way too strong. The meta changed (shoutbow is out) and while it’s no longer optimal for a thief to push far and 1v1 an easy matchup (shoutbow was easy for s/d as I remember, it wasn’t to do with how good thief was though, it was just a unique matchup that went in thief’s favor due to how the two specs interacted.) 1v1 servers do still exist where thief is still completely viable if you really want to 1v1.

oEnvy.3064:

Arctarius.2649:

oEnvy.3064:

Arctarius.2649:

oEnvy.3064:

Thief is the fastest and most mobile class not to mention it has near perma stealth making it the very best +1er and decaper in the game. With proper rotations a good thief can easily carry a pvp game EVEN at a top level, I’ve seen Toker single handedly save games for the abjured. If a thief has potential to carry against the best players in the game, then it can definitely carry in random solo q’s it’s just a matter of rotations.

It makes sense that thief isn’t great in 1v1s, it’s not the thief’s job to 1v1. If thief was the best 1v1er in the game on top of having the most mobility/disengage/stealth it’d be straight up OP because not only would they be able to win most 1v1s they’d be able to leave whenever they wanted making them virtually unkillable.

Why do you guys say thief has no survivability when it has more than it’s ever had in pvp with SA and vamp runes? If you’re constantly dying on that than I can definitely see why you’re retiring your thief. I would too.

Anyway thief isn’t terrible at 1v1 the cele classes are obviously better but that’s a given. A thief can take down mesmers, other thieves, non bunker guards, warriors and it’s easily possible for a thief to take down a bad cele necro or ele (though not reasonable to expect to do consistently I’ve done it a fair share even taking out Phantaram’s d/d 1v1 on point once in ESL) you just have to know when you’ve lost and get out.

Anyway so in short this isn’t a 1v1 playstyle but it doesn’t mean that you can’t fight. Thieves can still carry a team fight, just have to play patiently and intelligently. On top of being able to outrotate teams with their mobility, get countless decaps using stealth and mobility, +1 to your heart’s content, as well as having the strongest revive utility in the game through SA minor trait + vamp runes thief can rez through almost anything which is amazing for getting your team back in the game.

With all this in mind I can understand why this playstyle may not seem fun to everyone. If that’s the case I’m sorry, I find it be great fun and I, along with many thieves better than I think thief is in a good place right now. Seriously go to any top thief’s stream (Magic Toker, Caed, Sindrener, etc.) and they will all tell you thief is fine right now, maybe a bit boring sometimes but definitely not underpowered like this forum likes to cry about.

I get that what it offers for this Conquest game mode is good..but that’s no excuse to play a class that cannot kill any other classes in 1v1 pvp. I main thief and I agree with you, it can win in 1v1 in its current state but it takes way too much effort opposed to the warrior one axe auto and were down..like comon. Lets be honest..why the kitten is the thief class the one that is put in this position, the most support like role in the game. it is insanely boring and utterly rediculas that the Assassin archetype class is a kitten support. like are you kidding me? yes i know you will comment with more “play intelligently then” speal….but quite frankly there are allot of us that are not pros and do not ever plan to be that would like to feel like real assassin classes without catering to a freaking game type to feel useful….thanks but no thanks, il take fighting fun 1v1s over mindlessly slapping keys back and forth from point to point acting like im carrying a team because im good at looking at colorful circles change under me and running in circles. PvP should be about combat and player reaction time, not walking fast really well. you and the other 2% thief players that think +1 & decap is fun can go do that then. if things don’t change for thief im out.

“PvP should be about combat and player reaction time” this is exactly what thief is about though. As far as straight up combat and 1v1s go thief has one of the highest skillcaps in the game. Yes, you have to play nearly perfectly or you could die. Doesn’t that make it all the more fulfilling when you get to the level where you don’t die. You seem to think I was saying all pvp thieves or all I do in games is decap while that is completely untrue. That was me justifying thieves not being able to 1v1 as well as other less mobile classes.

Also if you aren’t a true pvp player which, with how you talk about colorful circles and such, then I don’t think you have a reason to complain about thief’s 1v1 ability. Yes, you’re a squishy class you have to play well you can’t just facetank everything and win, but thief has more than enough tools to stay alive. Yes, sometimes you will lose to less skilled players because you didn’t play perfectly. That’s the trade off for an extremely high level skillcap class, if you aren’t capable of consistently playing thief at a high level then please don’t just cry to anet to make the class easier, get better.

No i am not new to pvp.. I am a skilled thief player and have played since lauch , thanks for trying your hand at insult though. I simply do not agree with your outlook on the fact that thiefs duty is to decap. As i said, the assassin archtype in most games is just as versitile as it is in this game, only we are not punished for picking the class for no reason. What sense does it make to you that we are the squishiest class in the game, supposed to do burst but cannot bypass any other classes defenses without flawless gameplay at all times as to where they can easily 1 hit us with absolutely no effort? I love high skill ceilings..what I dont love is me busting my kitten to pull off a single attack on an opponent ( that usually wont finish them) and them simply pressing one button for some insane invulnerably duration, or having some other form of inane active defense with ease of access and low cool down. It is mindless and unfair. Im sorry it should take a class at least some effort and skill to kill something. As i said, I am very skilled at the class, High skill ceilings are what i look for in games. But i draw the line when other classes can kill me by accident because they dropped 20 conditions on me with the click of 2 buttons and i am over here struggling to remove 3 of them so not to die. Its just gotten out of hand and has nothing to do with skill. I jumped on necro after playing thief almost a year straight and it feels so much more rewarding and literally takes a quarter of the skill (no offense to necros, thief is just beyond kittened up balance wise) I was face rolling everything and it felt so easy compared to the effort of even attempting to kill one other skilled player as a thief. I am not asking for thief to be buffed to the point it is not skillful and fun to play anymore, I am asking that I can stand a kitten chance to at least 4 of the freaking 9 professions in the game without having to play at flawless perfection to land a couple hits on a guy and escape before he can one shot me… its just stupid right now.. I love my 1v1’s as do probably most if not almost every thief player ot there. Its why assassins exist, to find the odd men out and try to finish them. Thief doesn’t feel like that anymore, it used to..now its just sad..

Me trying at my hand at an insult would be me saying you are a terrible thief. Which from how you cluelessly describe a lot of matchups it definitely sounds like you are. Ignorantly crying about your profession because you simply can’t play it to it’s full potential. “what I dont love is me busting my kitten to pull off a single attack on an opponent ( that usually wont finish them)” What do you want your autos to one shot enemies or something?

“and them simply pressing one button for some insane invulnerably duration, or having some other form of inane active defense with ease of access and low cool down.” Yes, other classes use their defensive mechanics to survive, learn those defensive mechanics and play around them. Endure pain lasts a few seconds, kite them with your high mobility, high stealth until then. Engi’s shield block and shrink last a few seconds and they can’t attack you in it, again kite, line up your next attack for when they pop out. Guardian’s heal skill as well as their elite skill are invulns, they can’t attack you in them same goes for them, their Shield of wrath blocks 3 attacks and explodes after a few seconds if it doesn’t take 3 attacks. Stealth up and wait for it to pop. Ranger has 2/3 invulns Signet of Stone which is on a 90 second cd, is a skill just like endure pain, lasts a few seconds kite them or stealth up until it’s over, Protect Me is a skill that transfers all damage to it’s pet just AGAIN kite or stealth until it’s over. GS4 on ranger blocks for a few seconds and if you hit them it will knock you back, same goes for it, or use your unblockable shadowshot to blind them and force them into the knockback animation which will fail while they are blinded. Mesmer has Distortion on a 40ish second cd they will most likely pop this after you initially engage on them, chances are if you engage on them with steal + shadowshot they will still be blinded when they pop it, either stealth, use the glob from mesmer, or kite them with mobility until it’s over then re-engage, they have a short cd invuln on sword which locks them into an obvious animation which won’t allow them to move, just wait for it to be over. I won’t go on. What I’m saying is learn specific game mechanics, play the other classses that are giving you trouble, learn what they do in certain scenarios, adapt to those. Don’t play matchups blindly without knowing exactly what your enemy is doing at all times and what that implicates.

If all else fails, maybe you aren’t cut out for thief like you think you are. Just know there other thieves who are successful in all facets of the game Pvp, Dueling, WvW Roaming, GvG, etc. so don’t cry and blame the game for being too hard when you do re-roll.

I’m done replying now as this conversation is going nowhere, you won’t learn anything from what I’m saying. I have never once said I was the best thief nor have I said I was at the skillcap, there are many thieves that are better than me. Swallow your pride, accept your limitations and strive to learn and improve. Accept it and get better, or be ignorant and stay bad.

you are right, the conversation is going nowhere, thank you for listing 1000 things i already knew and once again throwing random insults in attempts to sound as if you know more. I never one said you claimed to be the best thief for one. and you simply cannot grasp what I am saying. I even stated in my last post that I do not want thief to have its skill cap devalued, I simply want a proper fix. You spamming me with possibilities within combat does not fix the problem. It is not blaming the game as i can be a “successful thief” as you put it, I just find it sad excuse for a role to play in a player vs player environment. I have understood your point from the get go, I just strongly disagree with you that this archetype should be in the place it is and you reiterating yourself is not helping your case or making you look the wiser.. so as I said you are right, it is pointless to try to explain my point to you further.

If I don’t use SB why can’t I “1v1 properly”? Are we forced to or did they didn’t even bother with other options?

The “best mobility vs combat efficiency” argument as already been discussed many times with the ending where is the other option? If all the mobility comes from SB shouldn’t at least another weapon make combat effective? Off-topic but let’s buff p/p damage and think as d/d as competitive melee condition weapon.

Kageseigi.2150:

If you wish to run around decapping and avoiding 1vX engagements, that’s fine. But why should everyone else who enjoys the Thief playstyle be limited to that?

Because as far as sPvP is concerned, that is the Thief play-style, and it’s a style that leaves us far from limited. My concern is less about pre-conceived notions about what the Thief class is supposed to be and more about doing the most I possibly can to help my friends, teammates, and myself succeed as a player of GW2. I’m going to play the game the way it ought to be played and as someone who has selected Thief as the class I wish to attempt to excel with, that currently means SA D/P. It also means a whole lot of running away, +1ing, rezzing, decapping, and using most of my attacks at key moments and in conjunction with other players. I appreciate your attempts to help refine the class but resent the naivety of how you cast aside what Thief currently does so well. Ultimately, Thief currently demands a certain degree of humility and it’s incredibly rewarding to those who embrace it. Adapt, quit, or continue to suffer the consequences for attempting to do something in a way that it really shouldn’t be attempted. The choice is yours to make. I hope my words have helped motivate you to adapt, learn, and experience many Eureka effect moments where you go, “Oh! THAT’S what I’m supposed to do in X situation!” Good luck. Thief has the most unique learning curve of all the classes in GW2 and most players give up before they’re able to realize this.

Thieves need help without a doubt. I’ve already opened a post about it click here.

oEnvy.3064:

laquito.5269:

Just gonna mention that there was a time, during S/D, when Thief was a farpoint assaulter to 1v1 Hambow (mostly) and to chase off the other thief. Both aspects are gone, thieves aren’t even 1v1ing anymore, so I don’t think “hurr durr +1ing and mobility” is a valid argument for not buffing the 1v1 potential.

Thanks for making an intelligent post. Imo thief still has a good amount of 1v1 potential with dp , while not as much as S/D used to it’s still good. It’s just not efficient to do so, as you could be +1ing and decaping. I don’t think the answer is to buff thief if thief truly is too weak to 1v1 in this meta, as I don’t believe in anet’s ability to intelligently buff someone because it could and usually does make the class way too strong. The meta changed (shoutbow is out) and while it’s no longer optimal for a thief to push far and 1v1 an easy matchup (shoutbow was easy for s/d as I remember, it wasn’t to do with how good thief was though, it was just a unique matchup that went in thief’s favor due to how the two specs interacted.) 1v1 servers do still exist where thief is still completely viable if you really want to 1v1.

1v1 in meta at a high level on a thief doesn’t exist.

In all the scenarios you’ve listed by the time you even come remotely close to killing your target 1v1 you’re either downed or running b/c of someone rotating to help. That’s even true with your target making multiple glaring mistakes when you play flawlessly.

What people want are minor tweaks to make thieves more viable in the 1v1 area because as of right now every class has the advantage 1v1 vs thief.

Funny thing is while Revenant get 1200 range on melee weapon(hammer) thief still got 900 range with all ranged weapons :s

rennlc.7346:

Kageseigi.2150:

If you wish to run around decapping and avoiding 1vX engagements, that’s fine. But why should everyone else who enjoys the Thief playstyle be limited to that?

Because as far as sPvP is concerned, that is the Thief play-style, and it’s a style that leaves us far from limited. My concern is less about pre-conceived notions about what the Thief class is supposed to be and more about doing the most I possibly can to help my friends, teammates, and myself succeed as a player of GW2. I’m going to play the game the way it ought to be played and as someone who has selected Thief as the class I wish to attempt to excel with, that currently means SA D/P. It also means a whole lot of running away, +1ing, rezzing, decapping, and using most of my attacks at key moments and in conjunction with other players. I appreciate your attempts to help refine the class but resent the naivety of how you cast aside what Thief currently does so well. Ultimately, Thief currently demands a certain degree of humility and it’s incredibly rewarding to those who embrace it. Adapt, quit, or continue to suffer the consequences for attempting to do something in a way that it really shouldn’t be attempted. The choice is yours to make. I hope my words have helped motivate you to adapt, learn, and experience many Eureka effect moments where you go, “Oh! THAT’S what I’m supposed to do in X situation!” Good luck. Thief has the most unique learning curve of all the classes in GW2 and most players give up before they’re able to realize this.

Beautifully written. I agree whole heartedly. Thief is certainly not for everyone — as it requires the time, devotion and patience to get well. Its really a team class where ego takes the back seat and that mentality, unfortunately doesn’t exist in most pvpers.

If you want to be the king of the battle — look else where. If you want to be the MVP (Toker on WTS, anyone?) then surely you have a great chance at it being a thief.

Your team contribution is top notch, eventhough the class is limited and pigeonholed into a single set/build to be viable.

I love how whole l2p, get better, adapt is thrown around. Fact is, in HoT thief won’t have in meta spot due to absurd powercreep. Period. There will be nothing to adapt to when no team wants you. And no i am not talking about lack of ANY 1v1 viability, i am talking about thief completely losing it even at that supposed +1/roamer role.

Oh and it is so lovely how people try to justify current state of thief by Toker, Levin, Sinderer gameplay … I am glad to know that thief class is designed for top 3 players IN ENTIRE game that have best teams in the world to support them and allow them to be viable. Too bad for the rest of the mortals that don’t have luxury to have such teams.

You know what happens when you put those amazing thieves on normal teams in normal soloq or even pug tourneys? Take a guess.

I know.. I’m getting tired of hearing these terrible claims of “that’s what the thief is good at and that’s it’s play style” guess what, about 6 months ago it wasn’t. All these new players coming to the game play a few months, watch a couple of pros and think they are God at thief like that oenvy guy. Little do these foolish players know that we WERE once in a place where we could 1v1 with most classes and have a decent outcome. Between other class power creep and thief continual nerfs, we have been lead to this crappy role now. So please, spare me all the nonsensical “facts” you have about why thief is good at being the teams btch, I have played when they were far more and they still deserve a rightful place in pvp

Cynz.9437:

I love how whole l2p, get better, adapt is thrown around. Fact is, in HoT thief won’t have in meta spot due to absurd powercreep. Period. There will be nothing to adapt to when no team wants you. And no i am not talking about lack of ANY 1v1 viability, i am talking about thief completely losing it even at that supposed +1/roamer role.

Oh and it is so lovely how people try to justify current state of thief by Toker, Levin, Sinderer gameplay … I am glad to know that thief class is designed for top 3 players IN ENTIRE game that have best teams in the world to support them and allow them to be viable. Too bad for the rest of the mortals that don’t have luxury to have such teams.

You know what happens when you put those amazing thieves on normal teams in normal soloq or even pug tourneys? Take a guess.

Do yourself a favor and quit pushing yourself on this sad little class then man… I see it stresses you a lot and you don’t need to play a game to be unhappy.

Thief will still be viable in PvP come HoT, you can be sure of that. Now there are levels of “being viable” so not all classes can have the same importance/impact to the outcome of matches… That being said, with the amount of mobility thief has, I would be shocked if we fall out of meta any time soon.

There’s nothing wrong with referencing strong players of thief community as well, as (in a way) they’re the representation of how a class plays under perfect circumstances. A bad player shouldn’t expect getting carried by the potency of their class… So that kind of example could work with Phantaram for Elementalist — Noscoc for Necro, Chaith for Engi… you get the point.

You can only do your best to play your class to the fullest you can, but PvP will still be a game where the score of the match will be decided by the effort of 5 people. Perhaps why the game will be never balanced around soloqueue, let alone be balanced around to be carried by the effort of 1 thief.

Peace, and take it easy. We’ll be fine.

bliss.4305:

That being said, with the amount of mobility thief has, I would be shocked if we fall out of meta any time soon.

There’s nothing wrong with referencing strong players of thief community as well, as (in a way) they’re the representation of how a class plays under perfect circumstances.

You can only do your best to play your class to the fullest you can, but PvP will still be a game where the score of the match will be decided by the effort of 5 people.

You’re either deluding yourself or missing the point, I don’t know which so I don’t know how strongly to chide you. Let me attempt once more to frame it properly.

Thieves remain in meta. This much is true.

The reason why they remain in meta is itself part of the problem.

Thieves have the best vertical mobility of all classes. When it comes to capturing uncontested points, they are prime choices for the job.

The problem is this is all they are good at. Referencing strong players in the community for proof of thieves viability is practically pointless to do, because of course you will be able to name players that have a tightly knit team and that have their role integrated into the actions of their team.

Not all players want to play decap bot. Some actually want to duel, without needing to be restricted to the role of an add.

So, when it comes to top players being representatives of thieves being played “perfectly”, that is up for debate. The way I see it, those are representations of “thieves that delegated themselves to utility” to support their team. While there is nothing inherently bad about that playstyle existing, the fact that it is the only -viable- one (and noncombat largely at that) is the very core of the issue.

Apparently there is some divide between players that want to actually win one-on-one fights and players that believe that being worlds best backcapper automatically validates the class. It all depends on how you define the word viable. Some players that have team synergy find only decapping as viable. Not knocking that.

There are other players that actually want the satisfaction of being able to down classes in 1v1 with their skills while contesting. There’s no allowance for these players, and the problem is a large portion of the playerbase with some thieves included say that this allowance should not be made.

I mean, why have two weapon slots and five weapon skills if you’re only going to use one skill when not assisted?

Cynz.9437:

I love how whole l2p, get better, adapt is thrown around. Fact is, in HoT thief won’t have in meta spot due to absurd powercreep. Period. There will be nothing to adapt to when no team wants you. And no i am not talking about lack of ANY 1v1 viability, i am talking about thief completely losing it even at that supposed +1/roamer role.

Oh and it is so lovely how people try to justify current state of thief by Toker, Levin, Sinderer gameplay … I am glad to know that thief class is designed for top 3 players IN ENTIRE game that have best teams in the world to support them and allow them to be viable. Too bad for the rest of the mortals that don’t have luxury to have such teams.

You know what happens when you put those amazing thieves on normal teams in normal soloq or even pug tourneys? Take a guess.

People don’t reference the best Thieves because you need to be that experienced to make Thief viable. People reference them because they’re accessible through their streams and while you may not want to spend as much time playing video games as they do (or you want to and don’t currently have the option to), you can still watch what they do and learn from it. It takes some practice in learning to decipher what you should copy from them and what you shouldn’t. In the current meta, you can watch Toker beat d/d ele’s 1v1 with SA D/P and crit S/P but you’ll also never seen him fully commit to 1v1ing a d/d ele he knows is quite capable. Instead, he’ll go to a location where he can be more productive. To me, this disparity in decisions presents a rather simple rule of thumb. If you aren’t sure you can win a 1v1 and win it in a timely manner, most of the time it will be better for your team and yourself to not attempt it. You can watch Caed, an avid duelist, attempt to 1v1 just about everything in sPvP but even when he has finished decapping a point and a necro rolls up with full death shroud, he’ll pass on the fight and +1 something else. Rule of thumb: don’t 1v1 a necro with full death shroud. By watching the most skilled players, you can start getting a rule of thumb for everything. When to use shadow shot vs steal to connect a backstab, when to go after the forest creatures on Nifel, when to say “We lost this fight” and leave to go decap a node, etc.

When you put a top SA D/P on a worse team, the end result is the same as putting any top player of a class on a worse team. Thieves just get there in a slightly different way. Just watch players like Phantaram, Chaithh, and Tarcis when they play ranked/unranked queues. They’ll carry a team fight, hold a node while outnumbered, and even dominantly win a 1v1 for the far node, but they’ll still regularly lose games because even the builds most benefiting from the “powercreep” have limitations, especially with their mobility and ability to disengage from a losing fight. As for SA D/P, when we play very well, we won’t lose so much because every node we leave gets recaptured or because we get zerged out of every team fight without assistance from our teammates. We’ll lose because people will break the stealth we apply when rezzing, a lack of focus fire to make our single-target burst and CC powerful, or because most people don’t yet know when to team fight offensively (when their Thief is +1ing) versus defensively (when their Thief is decapping).

I’m not trying to tell you it’s a L2P issue over a balance issue. It’s both a L2P issue AND a balance issue. We’re very limited as far as viable builds go AND we have one build in SA D/P that is very powerful in the current meta. People tell you to learn and adapt because your complaints about the Thief class are focused entirely on the lack of build diversity and we’re interpreting this sole focus on what’s not working partially as you being ignorant about what currently does work. We’re trying to help you become a better Thief and we’re trying to encourage you to levee your arguments because it is also a COMMUNICATION issue. By acknowledging that SA D/P is in a relatively good place right now when played in a more supportive way, you’ll seem to be a much more rational and reasoned individual and your complaints about our lack of other viable builds will be taken more seriously and perhaps even heard by the developers. I can only show you the way. It’s up to you to grow and ultimately enhance the gaming experience of those you play with as well as your own. Good luck!

“Oh noz, I’m about to be stomped by this warrior, pls help me!!”
“Sorry, I can’t, I’m a thief”

I’m not sure what issue you’re experiencing with a warrior conducting a stomp or cleave because you chose to not go into any detail about the problem you’re experiencing. If the class being stomped by the warrior is an ele, thief, or mesmer, an SA Thief can use Blinding Powder on the the downed player before they use their downstate escape ability and begin rezzing before it’s effects wear off. Thus, the downed player will have moved without giving any sign as to where he has moved and the warrior can only guess where he should attempt to cleave. If your problem with warrior is interrupting a stomp because he has stability, I would encourage you to play SA D/P (or maybe DD S/D Thief come HoT) with Bountiful Theft so your steal both removes his stability and allows the daze to interrupt the stomp. If the situation is considerably less ideal with your Steal being on cool-down and the downed player being a class that can’t escape a warrior’s stomp or cleave, then that’s unfortunate but it’s hardly game or class-breaking. Finishing downed players is a strength of stance warriors and we’re fortunate to counter them better than other classes.

If your issue is that these counters require a certain degree of team work and using a build centered more around teamwork, then that isn’t the game’s fault. It’s yours. I can’t make you a capable team-player. I can only encourage you to attempt to play more like one. To succeed in the current meta (and perhaps even future metas), you would need to choose to be more of a team player for yourself, Jana. I hope you will. This game is much more fun when we work together than when we fail, whine, cry, and rage.

Not with reveal
Not with D/D
Not when my steal is on cooldown
No team when I’m the only one at the downed team member

I’m just arguing that your arguments about L2P make no sense and that you’re trying to sugarcoat that there is an issue when a class is unable to defeat 8 of 9 classes unless they outskill them by lengths (although outskill all 9 classes probably).

We don’t even know what the final anti-stealth traits will be, whether or not they will be used, or whether or not we will have a counter play to them (such as simply dodging a reveal skill the same way we dodge a Power Block or fear well while in Shadow Refuge). My arguments make no sense because you are currently unwilling to view your role as a Thief as what the present meta most heavily rewards. This is a role defined by teamwork and the versatility of how we’re able work in conjunction with other players. Thief, as a whole, is not weak. Thief is weak at how you’re currently attempting to play it. The meta changed and you didn’t change with it, Jana. If you are not willing to even consider the possibility of this being true, there is nothing more I can do to attempt to help you improve as a player. If so, I’m very disappointed in both your capabilities as a person to adapt and my capability as a person to be of assistance.

Jana.6831:

“Oh noz, I’m about to be stomped by this warrior, pls help me!!”
“Sorry, I can’t, I’m a thief”

Aren’t thieves one of the best classes for interrupting a warrior’s stomp?

Shadow refuge or merciful ambush stealth them, which negates the stomp, and bountiful theft priorities stability, meaning that sleight of hand steals will interrupt through stability.

I mean, if you have your steal, your shadow refuge, and your merciful ambush on cooldown, the warrior in question has stability, you wont be able to. But… that’s not a thief issue.

If any other class has all their interrupts on cooldown, they can’t interrupt either.

rennlc.7346:

We don’t even know what the final anti-stealth traits will be, whether or not they will be used, and whether or not we will have a counter play to them (such as simply dodging a reveal the same way we dodge a Power Block or Fear Well while in Shadow Refuge). My arguments make no sense because you are currently unwilling to view your role as a Thief as what the present meta most heavily rewards. This is a role defined by teamwork and the versatility of how we’re able work in conjunction with other players. Thief, as a whole, is not weak. Thief is weak at how you’re currently attempting to play it. The meta changed and you didn’t change with it, Jana. If you are not willing to even consider the possibility of this being true, there is nothing more I can do to attempt to help you improve as a player. If so, I’m very disappointed in both your capabilities as a person to adapt and my capability as a person to be of assistance.

They are already being used and Lock on is really nasty – that skill completely shuts me down. (I still killed that engi because he forgot to L2P because he’s got such a nifty noob spam skill)
I’m a wvw thief, I don’t care about your “special roles” in pvp.

I personally find you annoying, so maybe work on that instead of taking pity in me- oh and play thief sometimes.

And if you think that pvp is “the end of it all and the best and stuff” try wvw – solo roaming – have fun.

Jana.6831:

rennlc.7346:

We don’t even know what the final anti-stealth traits will be, whether or not they will be used, and whether or not we will have a counter play to them (such as simply dodging a reveal the same way we dodge a Power Block or Fear Well while in Shadow Refuge). My arguments make no sense because you are currently unwilling to view your role as a Thief as what the present meta most heavily rewards. This is a role defined by teamwork and the versatility of how we’re able work in conjunction with other players. Thief, as a whole, is not weak. Thief is weak at how you’re currently attempting to play it. The meta changed and you didn’t change with it, Jana. If you are not willing to even consider the possibility of this being true, there is nothing more I can do to attempt to help you improve as a player. If so, I’m very disappointed in both your capabilities as a person to adapt and my capability as a person to be of assistance.

They are already being used and Lock on is really nasty – that skill completely shuts me down. (I still killed that engi because he forgot to L2P because he’s got such a nifty noob spam skill)
I’m a wvw thief, I don’t care about your “special roles” in pvp.

I personally find you annoying, so maybe work on that instead of taking pity in me- oh and play thief sometimes.

And if you think that pvp is “the end of it all and the best and stuff” try wvw – solo roaming – have fun.

Thieves are playing P/P DD builds in the beta too. It doesn’t mean they’re going to be a regular feature in the upcoming meta or that we won’t learn ways of effectively playing around such skills. I annoy you because I’m challenging you to be better and this requires you to acknowledge your own imperfections (which is very uncomfortable for people who are still currently highly egotistical). It’s not a special role. It’s just a role, and it’s one you are playing poorly because you aren’t even attempting to play it.

I have tried WvW. The opportunities to fight other players are less frequent, more dependent on the number of players involved, and the players are generally considerably less skilled at small engagements. I play sPvP not because I think the game should be balanced around sPvP but because it’s regularly been the most accessible and balanced form of PvP GW2 has to offer. I want challenges and sPvP currently provides them in a better quality and more frequently. If you’re set on only playing WvW, I would encourage you to realize that there are three teams in a given zone and you should attempt to work with some of the other players on your team. This is what Thief currently excels most at regardless of how you feel about it. Adapt, my friend. I know you can.

You annoy me because I don’t like hobby shrinks who pretend to know anything about me.
Wvw solo roaming is the hardest there is, sorry to burst your bubble, so if you meet a serious solo roamers (there still are some but they’re rare since June and were even before that) be prepared for a good fight.
It is far more effective if the whole server works as a team, you have to adapt from 1 vs 1 to 1 vs x. It’s not 5 vs 5 and you can call help whenever you need it – you have to do things on your own.
Pvp can’t be called balanced if one class is only taken in because of their mobility – the moment another class will get near equal mobility that class won’t be in pvp anymore.
Same with rangers who argue that their class in underpowered because pvp top teams don’t have them. Nobody seems to spare a thought at how pvp is set up and if it is for every class.
Try wvw harder, unfortunately we depend on what the “perfectly balanced game mode” spits out for us.

It seems that the role of +1’ing and decapping is more or less solidified at this point. Being useful essentially means making correct decision on when to do one or the other (or even 1v1 if you can) – Which is true, and but it’s more of general PvP thing, as in every role has to make correct decisions to be useful. The thing that erks most “old timer” thieves, or at the very least me, is the lack of different roles – not exactly “we want to be more useful”, which can be countered by git gud/l2p/look at streamers and follow suit. Balance is due, but in my opinion, diversification is overdue.

(Now maybe I’m in the wrong to keep comparing to LoL… but here it goes anyways.)
Referencing LoL, they too have set-in-stone roles (top, mid, adc, sup, jungler). If you don’t like playing say top, you can try your hand at the other remaining 4 roles. Found that you love playing Mid? Great, but don’t like playing Akali, no problem choose another mid character among a myriad of them. Found that you like Zed mid, great, there’s a couple (at this point prolly 1-3 builds) with variation on items according to how the game is playing out) of builds out there that you can pick from. And while the roles are set-in-stone, there’s apox. 127 different champs (and a couple builds for each one).

Besides the vast diversity of champs for each role, I don’t think any champ remained at top of the tier for a role for too long – at the very least, a different champ would join the top tier for that role once in a while – which again adds to the diversity of things (you have ~3 options for playing a top tier champ – if that’s what you’re into). (Unlike, here in GW2, the thief has been in meta and continues to be in meta because it’s good at +1’ing and decapping – better than other arguably)

Yes the genres are different, and instead of having 127 champs we have 8(+1) classes. Yes, because it’s an MMORPG, those 8 classes will have somewhat of a specialization on which role they do (tanking/bunkering, roaming, kill, … ) or thinking more open-mindedly how they carry out those roles. What doesn’t make sense to me is why restrict classes to only 1-2 role(s)?

A while ago (good while ago), I made a post complaining that we couldn’t really zerg with the rest, I was met with “it’s not the thief’s role” or “go roll class X instead”. While it’s true that currently it’s not the role for thieves in WvW or that class X can do it better, why does it have to be so? What if “I” don’t like playing class X/Y/Z to fulfill that role (keep in mind we only have 8(+1 coming) and not all can fulfill all the roles). If the thief can zerg just like class X, and both are balanced (more or less, practically), what harm can it bring? Will class X become less viable/not meta? Nope, if it’s balanced. I honestly can’t think of a reason. Diversity in itself is harmless and neutral (just like proper Balance), if not beneficial when it’s lacked in almost it’s entirety (ex. only guards can bunker! only ele’s can kill! thieves roam! (no it’s not true, I know)). Unlike LoL, GW2 isn’t pumping out new clases every few months or so (used to be every few weeks for LoL). So, the only way GW2 can expand diversity within roles is to expand role diversity within classes – More balantly, to have more than 1 class accomplish role X, multiple classes will need to accomplish role X.

Currently the thief’s role is +1’ing and decapping. But why can’t there be more roles? Want to bunker? Let’s give the thief insane evades paired with survivability (good condi cleansing, good life regen, some passive defense (not too much since it’s about dodging but enough to not be 1 mistake = gg – again balanced with other classes – read last portion) at the expanse of damage – via traits and the weapon you pick. Want to duel? Let’s give a mixture of evades, stealth, and damage (balanced). Want to assassinate people, but risk being squished by a piece of paper? Here’s the big damage, some gap closing, and some stealth. Want to roam? Here’s a ton of mobility, but you can’t dish or take much damage. Want to support? Here’s a way for you to better spread your poisons (well, it exists, but, yeah.).

“But Zero Day, not all classes can do all roles!” – Yes, currently, but why does it have to be so? “To make classes unique!” – They can be unique, in how they fulfill the roles (ex. say Pure dodge thief bunker vs Passive heavy guardian bunker vs Some sort of earth ele).

The reason it’s not happening tomorrow, or in one swift blow, is that there would need to be LOTS of reworking across all classes, to both balance and to diversify roles within classes. It’s an understandably big problem, or a hefty amount of work, so yeah it will take time. Do I believe it warrants 3 years and more? No. There’s been hundreds of suggestions for thief and I’m sure across all other classes as well, that can be partially used if there’s an issue with coming up with some. Does it require lots of work? Yes, get a productive dedicated group of people solely devoted to this – but this isn’t my issue as a gamer, it’s the developer’s issue or rather higher-ups that make groups/assign tasks. (Not trashing them, just being frank).

I feel like, that’s the high level issue at hand. As opposed to low level issues like “can’t 1v1” or “don’t have survivability”.

Hope I maintained coherency and articulated myself well enough. I hate writing long posts… I like trolling trolls more.

“Zero Day, you sound like an entitled brat for wanting to do more than 1 (or X, whatever you believe we can do) thing as a thief” – Not sure how, please explain. Last paragraph did note that it’s more of a class wide issue. I want to say, I’m more passionate (despite not playing for reasons) towards the game than entitled. I do wish to see it become that best kitten MMORPG out there, and this is the way I see it becoming better.

“But Zero Day, you can do lots of things with the thief, might not be meta but still viable” – Right, that’s why there’s the complaining about say “1v1’ing” or “survivibility”… “Git gud Zero Day to do those things” – F*** why am I arguing with the other voice inside my head that is trying to undermine what I’ve said, be gone inner self destructive troll.

“Didn’t read cuz you a whiteknight” – At least you can write. Nor am I a “whiteknight” for the thief – last paragraph that you didn’t read kind of points that out…

OMG… one of my brackets are off… must resist editing main portion since it was already quoted…. but… brackets…must resist…

@ zero:
The crucial point for that is the ferocity patch.
I can’t remember at what percentage crit was nerfed 40% and didn’t it hit thieves harder because all traits were nerfed with it?
That patch made condis “op” which made it impossible for thieves to stay in zergs. Not just because of the condis but because the zergs were killing each other more slowly because their direct damage was nerfed. Come to think of it; I used to rally off killed enemies a lot. Not really the case anymore but I’m probably a bit better now anyway so I don’t go all Yolo anymore (lie).
We had a lot of condi roamers in the beginning, after a few weeks most went zerker. And there was a “code of honour” not to go condi. Question is why the direct damage roamers went zerker and not something else.
My nooby feeling back then was that my cooldowns were just too long for anything but zerker.

Then you have the patch now – you can’t kill warriors or guardians
Once you have found a weak spot on any other class they’re dead nearly instantly. (With exception of eles who have too many shields).

So, I guess something with the formulas went wrong in both cases and maybe not every class has to be revised but how everything scales.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

bliss.4305:

That being said, with the amount of mobility thief has, I would be shocked if we fall out of meta any time soon.

There’s nothing wrong with referencing strong players of thief community as well, as (in a way) they’re the representation of how a class plays under perfect circumstances.

You can only do your best to play your class to the fullest you can, but PvP will still be a game where the score of the match will be decided by the effort of 5 people.

You’re either deluding yourself or missing the point, I don’t know which so I don’t know how strongly to chide you. Let me attempt once more to frame it properly.

Thieves remain in meta. This much is true.

The reason why they remain in meta is itself part of the problem.

Thieves have the best vertical mobility of all classes. When it comes to capturing uncontested points, they are prime choices for the job.

The problem is this is all they are good at. Referencing strong players in the community for proof of thieves viability is practically pointless to do, because of course you will be able to name players that have a tightly knit team and that have their role integrated into the actions of their team.

Not all players want to play decap bot. Some actually want to duel, without needing to be restricted to the role of an add.

So, when it comes to top players being representatives of thieves being played “perfectly”, that is up for debate. The way I see it, those are representations of “thieves that delegated themselves to utility” to support their team. While there is nothing inherently bad about that playstyle existing, the fact that it is the only -viable- one (and noncombat largely at that) is the very core of the issue.

Apparently there is some divide between players that want to actually win one-on-one fights and players that believe that being worlds best backcapper automatically validates the class. It all depends on how you define the word viable. Some players that have team synergy find only decapping as viable. Not knocking that.

There are other players that actually want the satisfaction of being able to down classes in 1v1 with their skills while contesting. There’s no allowance for these players, and the problem is a large portion of the playerbase with some thieves included say that this allowance should not be made.

I mean, why have two weapon slots and five weapon skills if you’re only going to use one skill when not assisted?

Best explanation of the current situation

Zero Day.2594:

It seems that the role of +1’ing and decapping is more or less solidified at this point. Being useful essentially means making correct decision on when to do one or the other (or even 1v1 if you can) – Which is true, and but it’s more of general PvP thing, as in every role has to make correct decisions to be useful. The thing that erks most “old timer” thieves, or at the very least me, is the lack of different roles – not exactly “we want to be more useful”, which can be countered by git gud/l2p/look at streamers and follow suit. Balance is due, but in my opinion, diversification is overdue.

(Now maybe I’m in the wrong to keep comparing to LoL… but here it goes anyways.)
Referencing LoL, they too have set-in-stone roles (top, mid, adc, sup, jungler). If you don’t like playing say top, you can try your hand at the other remaining 4 roles. Found that you love playing Mid? Great, but don’t like playing Akali, no problem choose another mid character among a myriad of them. Found that you like Zed mid, great, there’s a couple (at this point prolly 1-3 builds) with variation on items according to how the game is playing out) of builds out there that you can pick from. And while the roles are set-in-stone, there’s apox. 127 different champs (and a couple builds for each one).

Besides the vast diversity of champs for each role, I don’t think any champ remained at top of the tier for a role for too long – at the very least, a different champ would join the top tier for that role once in a while – which again adds to the diversity of things (you have ~3 options for playing a top tier champ – if that’s what you’re into). (Unlike, here in GW2, the thief has been in meta and continues to be in meta because it’s good at +1’ing and decapping – better than other arguably)

Yes the genres are different, and instead of having 127 champs we have 8(+1) classes. Yes, because it’s an MMORPG, those 8 classes will have somewhat of a specialization on which role they do (tanking/bunkering, roaming, kill, … ) or thinking more open-mindedly how they carry out those roles. What doesn’t make sense to me is why restrict classes to only 1-2 role(s)?

A while ago (good while ago), I made a post complaining that we couldn’t really zerg with the rest, I was met with “it’s not the thief’s role” or “go roll class X instead”. While it’s true that currently it’s not the role for thieves in WvW or that class X can do it better, why does it have to be so? What if “I” don’t like playing class X/Y/Z to fulfill that role (keep in mind we only have 8(+1 coming) and not all can fulfill all the roles). If the thief can zerg just like class X, and both are balanced (more or less, practically), what harm can it bring? Will class X become less viable/not meta? Nope, if it’s balanced. I honestly can’t think of a reason. Diversity in itself is harmless and neutral (just like proper Balance), if not beneficial when it’s lacked in almost it’s entirety (ex. only guards can bunker! only ele’s can kill! thieves roam! (no it’s not true, I know)). Unlike LoL, GW2 isn’t pumping out new clases every few months or so (used to be every few weeks for LoL). So, the only way GW2 can expand diversity within roles is to expand role diversity within classes – More balantly, to have more than 1 class accomplish role X, multiple classes will need to accomplish role X.

Currently the thief’s role is +1’ing and decapping. But why can’t there be more roles? Want to bunker? Let’s give the thief insane evades paired with survivability (good condi cleansing, good life regen, some passive defense (not too much since it’s about dodging but enough to not be 1 mistake = gg – again balanced with other classes – read last portion) at the expanse of damage – via traits and the weapon you pick. Want to duel? Let’s give a mixture of evades, stealth, and damage (balanced). Want to assassinate people, but risk being squished by a piece of paper? Here’s the big damage, some gap closing, and some stealth. Want to roam? Here’s a ton of mobility, but you can’t dish or take much damage. Want to support? Here’s a way for you to better spread your poisons (well, it exists, but, yeah.).

“But Zero Day, not all classes can do all roles!” – Yes, currently, but why does it have to be so? “To make classes unique!” – They can be unique, in how they fulfill the roles (ex. say Pure dodge thief bunker vs Passive heavy guardian bunker).

The reason it’s not happening tomorrow, or in one swift blow, is that there would need to be LOTS of reworking across all classes, to both balance and to diversify roles within classes. It’s an understandably big problem, or a hefty amount of work, so yeah it will take time. Do I believe it warrants 3 years and more? No. There’s been hundreds of suggestions for thief and I’m sure across all other classes as well, that can be partially used if there’s an issue with coming up with some. Does it require lots of work? Yes, get a productive dedicated group of people solely devoted to this – but this isn’t my issue as a gamer, it’s the developer’s issue or rather higher-ups that make groups/assign tasks. (Not trashing them, just being frank).

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I feel like, that’s the high level issue at hand. As opposed to low level issues like “can’t 1v1” or “don’t have survivability”.

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Hope I maintained coherency and articulated myself well enough. I hate writing long posts… I like trolling trolls more.

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“Zero Day, you sound like an entitled brat for wanting to do more than 1 (or X, whatever you believe we can do) thing as a thief” – Not sure how, please explain. Last paragraph did note that it’s more of a class wide issue. I want to say, I’m more passionate (despite not playing for reasons) towards the game than entitled. I do wish to see it become that best kitten MMORPG out there, and this is the way I see it becoming better.

---

“But Zero Day, you can do lots of things with the thief, might not be meta but still viable” – Right, that’s why there’s the complaining about say “1v1’ing” or “survivibility”… “Git gud Zero Day to do those things” – F*** why am I arguing with the other voice inside my head that is trying to undermine what I’ve said, be gone inner self destructive troll.

Well, as long as we’re having a respectful banter on the problem itself long posts are more than welcomed.

As you’ve already disclaimed on your post, I don’t see how helpful it is to compare a MOBA with an MMO, as its more like comparing an orange and an apple simply because both are similarly round. However, for the sake of understanding the mentality, it serves a point and I will try to elaborate on that point.

Gw2 is certainly, one of the “more successful” MMOs out there that tried EXACTLY what you’re stressing out: “Diversification” (if such word exists)

Take a guardian. Do you want to be a defensive point-holder? Bunker build for you, sir. Do you want to be a power-damage dealer? Medi is perfect for you. Do you want to deal condition-burst damage? Burn guardian… Do you want to be a support guardian? I recall a year ago we had Mercy runes viably letting guardians be a ress-bot in fights and act as a support role only…

You see, there ARE diverse builds that serve different purposes. And I know the problem lies with Thief being pigeonholed on a single role entirely, thus making it difficult to enjoy the game doing something other than said role, right?

There’s nothing that stops you from wearing soldier amulet with intelligence and energy sigils and be a bunkery, dodgy type of thief. There’s nothing that stops you from speccing into Shadow Arts, use Mercy runes and be a designated stealth resser and team support. There’s nothing that stops you from enjoying pistol builds and be a ranged damage dealer.

Although there is clearly something that stops you doing all those, right? The effectiveness and viability of these roles. I think NO thief would argue, if I said we clearly lack on the diversity department. But apart from a few classes which are blessed with multiple viable range of options… all classes suffer this. Some roles are inherently better for specific classes for the conquest 5 versus 5 type of gameplay.

And its like you said, balance is a painful and time consuming process. But I can assure you, in no other MMO with similar popularity will you will find the variety of roles as in Gw2. Even when you’d expect the “role” of Thief wouldn’t be to ress people in team fights, or spread venoms that help their allies in many ways… you’re able to do so.

Is it the most effective role you can accomplish with your class? Probably not. But I don’t see how perfect balance could be achieved unless classes are given identical skills with different visual/sound effects — which imo, would completely destroy the flavour of class variety altogether.

Jana.6831:

…

While they claim and try to change the meta from zerker to something else, that’s great.
I see no indication that they’re diversifying roles within classes aside from really Druid (that’s an amazing support, healer at that too) and Revanant (that might be able to support, tank, or deal damage). And even that I feel like it was accidental rather then intentional.

bliss.4305:

..

Is it the most effective role you can accomplish with your class? Probably not. But I don’t see how perfect balance could be achieved unless classes are given identical skills with different visual/sound effects — which imo, would completely destroy the flavour of class variety altogether.

Thanks for reading the long kitten post. I have read yours, I just don’t want to re-quote 2 giant posts, making a massive giant block of text that’s ugly… and potentially running out of characters/space. Glad we share the same perspective though.

Onto the the real reply on what I did leave quoted…

Perfect anything can’t be achieved (there were some philosophers that tried to look at how an imperfect entity can/could create a prefect entity or how/why a prefect entity would create an imperfect entity – see the note below). In a weird way, perfection means the death/end/stop of things (if animals were to become prefect, they would stop evolving. If computer system were perfectly secure there would be no hackers nor security experts)… Kind of like you said that all classes will be the same with different visual/sound effects. Though, there’s no reason to not strive for it (and since it can’t be achieved, there won’t be self destruction).

Well, we (you and I for instance) can’t conceive the idea of how to both give balance and flavor across classes whilst not making them look bland – but it doesn’t mean that other’s can’t, or with enough thought put into it (think crowd sourced kind of, or ant/hive like intelligence gather of thoughts) that it’s not do-able to just the right degree.

Like the example of evading bunker thief versus a heavily passive guardian bunker, similar things can be applied to other classes. Necros for example can distribute their damage taken onto minions to become bunkers. Engies can build defensive turrets to make a little fort around themselves. Mesmers can, like necros, divert damage to clones, though in a weirder way, like say, if the actual mesmer was to be downed a clone get’s downed in their place. These are just ideas, and with the current state of skills and traits cannot exist. They require reworking and balancing thereafter.

Perhaps a way to achieve this is to start with only one role, distribute it amongst classes, balance the hell out of it amongst the classes, then proceed to the next role.

Oh and League did to a degree achieve a pretty decent diversification. Though, reason I say pretty decent is because some skills on some champs did/do feel like skills on other champs (example, Jinx’s, Draven’s, and Ashe’s ults. To a degree they’re the same, that they’re global in range and are damage dealing, but then all three of them have a twist to them, like Ashe’s stuns, Jinx’s explodes, Draven’s goes through and back again)… At the same time, in a weird way, it’s like a mix-and-match almost…

Why can’t GW2 be as good at it or better? Only solid work stands in the way. Do it and become more awesome and better than before.

The note below:

oEnvy.3064:

Swallow your pride, accept your limitations and strive to learn and improve. Accept it and get better, or be ignorant and stay bad.

I know you’re done here, but I think that quote is kind of the issue. Knowing the limitations of the Thief compared to other professions. No matter what you do in life (video games, sports, warfare), there is almost always someone bigger, better, faster, smarter, more experienced, etc. Sometimes, the only “winning” move is to not play. Think of the movie “Wargames” with its Tic-tac-toe and Thermonuclear War.

A Thief may always be able to engage. A Thief may even always be able to disengage. But can the Thief always defeat the opponent? Unfortunately, it doesn’t always depend on the player of the Thief, it also depends on the player of the opponent.

Personally, I cannot even express how crazy it is for an “assassin” character to attack a target successfully, but actually be punished for it. A Mesmer may have Mirror of Anguish. A Guardian may have Amplified Wrath. A Necromancer may have Reaper’s Protection. How is a Thief supposed to know if he can even safely engage without causing harm to himself? Is he supposed to only use half of his skills or deselect some of his most useful traits?

I understand such passive defenses are needed for their survival. But the Thief is unique. An assassin should be able to at least avoid harming himself with his own attacks.

rennlc.7346:

My concern is less about pre-conceived notions about what the Thief class is supposed to be and more about doing the most I possibly can to help my friends, teammates, and myself succeed as a player of GW2. I’m going to play the game the way it ought to be played and as someone who has selected Thief as the class I wish to attempt to excel with, that currently means SA D/P. It also means a whole lot of running away, +1ing, rezzing, decapping, and using most of my attacks at key moments and in conjunction with other players. I appreciate your attempts to help refine the class but resent the naivety of how you cast aside what Thief currently does so well. Ultimately, Thief currently demands a certain degree of humility and it’s incredibly rewarding to those who embrace it. Adapt, quit, or continue to suffer the consequences for attempting to do something in a way that it really shouldn’t be attempted. The choice is yours to make. I hope my words have helped motivate you to adapt, learn, and experience many Eureka effect moments where you go, “Oh! THAT’S what I’m supposed to do in X situation!” Good luck. Thief has the most unique learning curve of all the classes in GW2 and most players give up before they’re able to realize this.

Honestly, that’s very insulting and quite arrogant as well, in fact, quite the opposite of the “humility required for a Thief,” but I will not press those issues further.

Be that as it may, you said yourself that they are your own concerns. I do not share them. However, I am not opposing them either. Like I said, if you want to play it that way, then do. Though, others should have the opportunities that they desire also.

The Thief was not always in this situation, I’m sure you are aware. They were not created for this single “role.” They have been transformed into a condition where this “role” alone was delegated to them.

Again, if you want to play “team” and get your fulfillment out of playing a support role in a VIDEO GAME, that’s fine. I chose the Thief because it is the closest thing this game has to an assassin. That means I’m here to sneak around and kill things… just as Thieves used to do. I already get my fill of humility in the real world. I don’t need lectures about how I lack it.

You seem to be speaking in the sense of “how things are” at this moment. I know fully well how things are, and I oppose them. This is a video game, and it will change as time goes onward. You can speak of how Thieves work in the current game, and that’s fine. But I can list issues and reasons why and how the Thief should change in the future. If you don’t agree, that’s fine. But to imply I’m playing the game incorrectly because I have a different agenda or goal than you do, that’s quite far from the truth.

Once again, I’m not here telling you how to play or how you should play. I’m here saying that others should be given the same respect and opportunities.

Sword/Dagger acrobatics thief used to be able to defend points and win straight fights, it’s also incompatible with the burst that makes the current thieves so good at ending fights quickly when they +1.

I wouldn’t mind if acrobatics were restored to its pre-nerfed state. The nerf really felt unjustified when it was only used by the second most common build, while the most common one remained at more or less the same level.

Kageseigi.2150:

rennlc.7346:

My concern is less about pre-conceived notions about what the Thief class is supposed to be and more about doing the most I possibly can to help my friends, teammates, and myself succeed as a player of GW2. I’m going to play the game the way it ought to be played and as someone who has selected Thief as the class I wish to attempt to excel with, that currently means SA D/P. It also means a whole lot of running away, +1ing, rezzing, decapping, and using most of my attacks at key moments and in conjunction with other players. I appreciate your attempts to help refine the class but resent the naivety of how you cast aside what Thief currently does so well. Ultimately, Thief currently demands a certain degree of humility and it’s incredibly rewarding to those who embrace it. Adapt, quit, or continue to suffer the consequences for attempting to do something in a way that it really shouldn’t be attempted. The choice is yours to make. I hope my words have helped motivate you to adapt, learn, and experience many Eureka effect moments where you go, “Oh! THAT’S what I’m supposed to do in X situation!” Good luck. Thief has the most unique learning curve of all the classes in GW2 and most players give up before they’re able to realize this.

Honestly, that’s very insulting and quite arrogant as well, in fact, quite the opposite of the “humility required for a Thief,” but I will not press those issues further.

Be that as it may, you said yourself that they are your own concerns. I do not share them. However, I am not opposing them either. Like I said, if you want to play it that way, then do. Though, others should have the opportunities that they desire also.

The Thief was not always in this situation, I’m sure you are aware. They were not created for this single “role.” They have been transformed into a condition where this “role” alone was delegated to them.

Again, if you want to play “team” and get your fulfillment out of playing a support role in a VIDEO GAME, that’s fine. I chose the Thief because it is the closest thing this game has to an assassin. That means I’m here to sneak around and kill things… just as Thieves used to do. I already get my fill of humility in the real world. I don’t need lectures about how I lack it.

You seem to be speaking in the sense of “how things are” at this moment. I know fully well how things are, and I oppose them. This is a video game, and it will change as time goes onward. You can speak of how Thieves work in the current game, and that’s fine. But I can list issues and reasons why and how the Thief should change in the future. If you don’t agree, that’s fine. But to imply I’m playing the game incorrectly because I have a different agenda or goal than you do, that’s quite far from the truth.

Once again, I’m not here telling you how to play or how you should play. I’m here saying that others should be given the same respect and opportunities.

I don’t think anything he said was insulting or lacked respect. He’s pointing out very accurate things regarding the state our class is in at this point in time.

I want to paraphrase you on what you said, because games indeed do change. As a 3 year main thief, I’ve been a part of the transition and remember everything quite vividly.

The problem here lies with how satisfied you are with what you expect from the class after its been redefined. Yes, especially in the PvP scene, thief can’t hold his/her ground as good as they used to. The previous huge overhaul which transformed every classes’ opportunity to trait into 3 traitlines benefited every class, including thief. That being said, the way other classes scale in terms of gaining defensive and offensive abilities definitely outshined thief, and thus we are having problems “sneaking and killing things”.

So what happened is, as a community we’ve redefined what’s ideal for us to do in the pvp scene to maximize our chances of success (winning the game or fights for the team). Would we all switch to masters of combat and choose to support our team by winning many 1v1 fights if we could? We might have. But in the current state of the thief, that doesn’t seem likely to happen, thus we do what we can do best.

I can assure you if you step into WvW scene and roam for kills, with the abundance of stats, foods buffs and supplements, you can successfully hold your ground / assassinate anyone with a fair chance. That being said, it wouldn’t be acceptable to shift your enjoyment of the game simply because of the changes the class undergoes, so you should play the game mode you desire.

The whole problem I take with this topic in general, is the massive outrage that seems to claim thieves are in need of saving. Every class have problems. Maybe thieves have more than other classes… So what? Its an MMO, and balance will never be fully achieved. However, I will oppose anyone self-declaring the class unviable. That’s simply not true. The class is not viable the way you want to play it. And if you don’t have the patience to wait or rely on the developers to hopefully change that, you can choose to find yourself another class/game/activity.

Its that simple.

bliss.4305:

The class is not viable the way you want to play it. And if you don’t have the patience to wait or rely on the developers to hopefully change that, you can choose to find yourself another class/game/activity.

I don’t believe it’s a matter of patience. It’s the ability to lobby for those changes without being told I shouldn’t do so… like it’s wrong to want to play the way I desire. I’m not out to play in the top-level tournaments. I’m just here to fight.

I started in WvW, but moved to PvP to learn how to fight better, because it was taking forever to find 1v1’s in WvW so I could improve. Hopefully, I’ll be able to enjoy it more when I return.

Again, my whole point is this… I hope ANet broadens the viability of the Thief. I don’t want to take away anyone’s playstyle… not a single one. I’m not against “+1 and decapping.” But I would prefer other viable playstyles and roles in addition to it, and I don’t see why that would be a bad thing. Until then, I’m still working to learn how to fight as a Thief, trying different builds and such, but I’m focusing on learning to succeed in combat, not to avoid it. It may not be meta, but neither am I.

Kageseigi.2150:

Again, my whole point is this… I hope ANet broadens the viability of the Thief. I don’t want to take away anyone’s playstyle… not a single one. I’m not against “+1 and decapping.” But I would prefer other viable playstyles and roles in addition to it, and I don’t see why that would be a bad thing. Until then, I’m still working to learn how to fight as a Thief, trying different builds and such, but I’m focusing on learning to succeed in combat, not to avoid it. It may not be meta, but neither am I.

We have to define things within its respective game-mode, though. And in the pvp-scene, the reason thieves can’t commit to fights is the constant rotation teams are capable of producing. In a truly balanced PvP, no matter what class, 1v1 should result with the victory of the better “player”. And while gw2 is no where near perfectly balanced, in a 1v1 scenario, the closer both opponents’ level is to each other, the fights tend to last longer. This results in an enemy coming to aid so a 1v1 results in a 1v2. Since Thief, mechanically, can’t contest an area while “holding its ground” its not effective for them to spend their time in that aspect of gameplay.

That’s why its good to have examples from top-tier PvP scenes where events unfold much closer to what it would if personal level of players are very high and close to each other. In most top tournaments, 1v1s usually take very long and the difference is made when teams rotate well and support the defender or attacker. In some ESL fights its not uncommon to see 2 players just sit in the node (after realizing the duel is moot), waiting for that support. Currently, thief is one of the fastest classes capable of providing that support which ends the loop of “duels” in PvP tourneys. In that way, I still think thief has one of the most important roles in PvP. To shift the balance in favor of your team.

Outside of the conquest game type which PvP really is… In a dueling scenario, in my experience, both S/D and D/P weapon sets have a good chance of beating their opponents if both players are close in personal experience. Any experienced duelist would agree with me on that.

bliss.4305:

Outside of the conquest game type which PvP really is… In a dueling scenario, in my experience, both S/D and D/P weapon sets have a good chance of beating their opponents if both players are close in personal experience. Any experienced duelist would agree with me on that.

As an experienced outside pvp duellist I disagree.

ETA: Any thief who kills any class in this game either outskills their opponent by far or caught them completely off guard (as the damage went up alot with the June patch). Please don’t pretend this game hasn’t issues. It’s not just thief but thief may suffer the most from what went wrong.

Jana.6831:

bliss.4305:

Outside of the conquest game type which PvP really is… In a dueling scenario, in my experience, both S/D and D/P weapon sets have a good chance of beating their opponents if both players are close in personal experience. Any experienced duelist would agree with me on that.

As an experienced outside pvp duellist I disagree.

ETA: Any thief who kills any class in this game either outskills their opponent by far or caught them completely off guard (as the damage went up alot with the June patch). Please don’t pretend this game hasn’t issues. It’s not just thief but thief may suffer the most from what went wrong.

I’m baffled how as an experienced OS/WvW duelist you’d find it difficult to stand a fair chance against another class of equal personal experience. Oh well, I suppose I just outskill the majority of my opponents then. Gotcha.

And I’ve actually admitted that game didn’t have perfect balance and all classes are in need of various helps.

edit: Looking at your signature I see you’re a D/D roamer. Well then there’s your answer. Don’t expect running a marathon with 1 leg.

bliss.4305:

I’m baffled how as an experienced OS/WvW duelist you’d find it difficult to stand a fair chance against another class of equal personal experience. Oh well, I suppose I just outskill the majority of my opponents then. Gotcha.

edit: Looking at your signature I see you’re a D/D roamer. Well then there’s your answer.

I actually doubt that you are as experienced as you claim. But yes, you probably outskill them – I have no idea as I don’t know you. I just know that the usual spot for duellists in wvw is deserted and I fight a lot, so I disagree on your claim that every experienced duellist would agree with you.
I know that D/P thieves can do a lot more than D/D but even they lose (unless they outskill) – the reason why there’s hardly any solo roamers anymore.

bliss.4305:

Since Thief, mechanically, can’t contest an area while “holding its ground”

I think this is what it all boils down to. The Thief is currently mechanically inferior in its ability to fight. And it seems to have gotten worse. The June patch brought a lot of defensive abilities and offensive power to other professions. But the Thief’s Acrobatics got gutted, and its survivability and lethality went down in relation to everything else.

I’m not saying that “+1 and decap” is something that should not be done. I’m saying that it shouldn’t be the ONLY thing available to a Thief. It’s just a difference between “what is” and “what should/could be.”

While it in no way exemplifies the realities of the Thief as a whole, even I could “bunker” down with a fully defensive non-stealth Sword build pre-patch. Against whatever low-skilled players I may have been fighting, I could 1v2 them for an extended period of time on point. Many times, I could do so indefinitely. After patch, I’m fortunate if I can even last a little while in a 1v1 with the same type of build as before.

I don’t even care for the ability to 1v1 in a fair fight. But a Glass Cannon assassin seems like it should be able to make quick work of an “unaware” straggler. Or I should say… when the assassin attacks a lone target from advantage. The Thief just seems too weak offensively to offset being so weak defensively. I would just like some balance to be brought in whichever direction. I can’t speak for Daredevil, but the base Thief needs some help.

Gunnar’s Hold must be an interesting community. In Desolation, we have nothing but solo thieves, mesmers and dedicated roamers who’re dueling and scrimming against each other (excluding the large scale GvGs or zerg fights that take place on a regular basis).

Few things to note as far as Thief vs X 1v1 goes:

1-You’re saying that “even” D/P thieves lose, which says you agree on its superiority as a weapon set. Yet you still use D/D and lower your chances of winning and generalize the outcome as thieves being inferior (BTW- I wish all weapon sets were viable and equally balanced, but lets face it, nope).
2-I’ve claimed that thieves especially in WvW scenario have an easier time having fair duels in 1v1 — eventhough the game is hardly balanced around 1v1. (Because I think foods and stat distributions of gear ---not pvp amulets—- are more complimentary for thieves)
3-A build that’s directly a counter to you will always give you a hard time and lower your chances of victory because…. see note #2. I’m not saying you can never win against a Lock on Engi or Sick ‘em Ranger or soon Revenants, Dragon Hunters or Scrappers… but it will tilt the odds in their favour for sure.
4-We all lose fights and win fights and the outcome is generally always decided by “outskilling” the opponents. There are margins of imbalances that favour 1 class against the other but like I’ve said in note #2, I don’t believe this to be as dramatic and apocalyptic as you and lately most thieves make it sound especially in WvW aspect.

Don’t you guys think thieves survivability also has to do with queueing solo and in a premade. In a premade environment, the roles are clearly defined and assistance is readily available.

But for solo queueing thieves, a buff in survivability is needed.

Maybe the ones that say thieves are in a right spot don’t queue solo like most.

bliss.4305:

Gunnar’s Hold must be an interesting community. In Desolation, we have nothing but solo thieves, mesmers and dedicated roamers who’re dueling and scrimming against each other (excluding the large scale GvGs or zerg fights that take place on a regular basis).

I don’t think my server has anything to do with it – I have been to a few although not lately.
And I can’t imagine that things are vastly different in gold although those on gold servers always claim it is.

bliss.4305:

1-You’re saying that “even” D/P thieves lose, which says you agree on its superiority as a weapon set. Yet you still use D/D and lower your chances of winning and generalize the outcome as thieves being inferior (BTW- I wish all weapon sets were viable and equally balanced, but lets face it, nope).

I’m a good player and D/P bores me. I’m also able to watch others and I also know of quite a few in FPs who have been asked to switch to mesmer. Me admitting that D/P is “superior” doesn’t mean that I only lose because of my weaponset – although I might have better chances with D/P still I’d have to outskill my opponent – that is the point.

bliss.4305:

2-I’ve claimed that thieves especially in WvW scenario have an easier time having fair duels in 1v1 — eventhough the game is hardly balanced around 1v1. (Because I think foods and stat distributions of gear ---not pvp amulets—- are more complimentary for thieves)

Don’t forget that the opponents also have access to food and stuff and they don’t have to take full offensive stats in most cases – even when it comes to food. So in the end it either evens out or the difference between the classes becomes even worse.

bliss.4305:

3-A build that’s directly a counter to you will always give you a hard time and lower your chances of victory because…. see note #2. I’m not saying you can never win against a Lock on Engi or Sick ’em Ranger or soon Revenants, Dragon Hunters or Scrappers… but it will tilt the odds in their favour for sure.

Right now every build is a counter to me, I guess. Or maybe every build is a counter to everything or whatever – what is a direct counter to my build and what other options do I have?

bliss.4305:

4-We all lose fights and win fights and the outcome is generally always decided by “outskilling” the opponents. There are margins of imbalances that favour 1 class against the other but like I’ve said in note #2, I don’t believe this to be as dramatic and apocalyptic as you and lately most thieves make it sound especially in WvW aspect.

You’re partly right, just that I have to even outskill upscaled wvw scouts (<- rank). That was my point.

ETA: To make it clear for you: A thief fighting any class played by someone of equal skill will lose. Before June: Most classes vs thief, equal skill = 50/50 after a few rounds.
Although I mostly won against mesmers, don’t know if they were that UP or if I won because it was my favourite class to fight.

The balance of overpowered may have shifted, but thief will always be the most fun for me, and though it has become an actual challenge, and certain enemies may be unbeatable, it isn’t hard to avoid those select few, and the rest just become more fun. I believe thief will always be viable, but it’s more of a fair fight now for everyone else.

Tbh at this point i actually hope that my worst predictions (thief inviable in pvp/pve) will come true in expac, maybe then devs will aknowledge that there is elephant in the room. Otherwise what i see from them atm is:
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SvWH7M5RIHs/maxresdefault.jpg

Things that probably need to happen to put this class on same level with other classes:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Things-we-really-need

Kageseigi.2150:

bliss.4305:

The class is not viable the way you want to play it. And if you don’t have the patience to wait or rely on the developers to hopefully change that, you can choose to find yourself another class/game/activity.

I don’t believe it’s a matter of patience. It’s the ability to lobby for those changes without being told I shouldn’t do so… like it’s wrong to want to play the way I desire. I’m not out to play in the top-level tournaments. I’m just here to fight.

I started in WvW, but moved to PvP to learn how to fight better, because it was taking forever to find 1v1’s in WvW so I could improve. Hopefully, I’ll be able to enjoy it more when I return.

Again, my whole point is this… I hope ANet broadens the viability of the Thief. I don’t want to take away anyone’s playstyle… not a single one. I’m not against “+1 and decapping.” But I would prefer other viable playstyles and roles in addition to it, and I don’t see why that would be a bad thing. Until then, I’m still working to learn how to fight as a Thief, trying different builds and such, but I’m focusing on learning to succeed in combat, not to avoid it. It may not be meta, but neither am I.

I don’t mind people attempting to seek improvements to the class. I want a build I can solo less selectively with and even Rambo with too on occasion (I also don’t want to win because my class is overpowered). What I mind is the way people go about seeking those improvements. Many of us here are assuming DD won’t provide a viable build for more sustained fighting. Many of us are assuming the new reveal mechanics will get used regularly and be extremely difficult to counter or play around. We’re saying things along the lines of “Thief is broke” rather than “SA Thief is versatile support but everything else is weak at the moment”.

Collectively we haven’t yet realized we’re basically asking the developers to attempt to balance the game more accurately all while being very inaccurate ourselves when we attempt to communicate our current problems. If we’re truly weak overall, making an argument that acknowledges the strengths of the current Thief builds as well as their weaknesses will make a much more compelling case than an argument which focuses only on the weaknesses. They can’t dismiss the former argument for seeming biased anywhere near as easily as they can the latter. People would prefer to not take the time to do this, but if we’re right about the weaknesses of non-SA D/P builds, it’s very important for us to not seem incredibly biased when we say so. This is how that’s done.

PvP is about running the most optimal build at the time of the meta, at least from what i have understood. If you run standard DA/TR/SA D/P i see no problem with thief in pvp, it has great survival and damage. Honestly i don’t see what more people could ask for in this weapon set.

If your complaining about lack of build diversity thats pretty much every class out there in pvp. This becomes about thief builds which aren’t stealth reliant being weak, not the class in general. I main S/P in wvw because i enjoy it and in pvp you will find me running the optimal build D/P.

I agree with most of what renncl and beyond b have said, please stop confusing the class as weak, but blame the real culprit lack of build diversity.

Jana.6831:

You annoy me because I don’t like hobby shrinks who pretend to know anything about me.
Wvw solo roaming is the hardest there is, sorry to burst your bubble, so if you meet a serious solo roamers (there still are some but they’re rare since June and were even before that) be prepared for a good fight.
It is far more effective if the whole server works as a team, you have to adapt from 1 vs 1 to 1 vs x. It’s not 5 vs 5 and you can call help whenever you need it – you have to do things on your own.
Pvp can’t be called balanced if one class is only taken in because of their mobility – the moment another class will get near equal mobility that class won’t be in pvp anymore.
Same with rangers who argue that their class in underpowered because pvp top teams don’t have them. Nobody seems to spare a thought at how pvp is set up and if it is for every class.
Try wvw harder, unfortunately we depend on what the “perfectly balanced game mode” spits out for us.

I didn’t mean to come off as insulting of WvW and those who roam in it. I was attempting to communicate that I have different priorities as a player than you do. I don’t care much for the heroic moments where I may win 1vX as much as I care about getting the little things right more consistently. sPvP is more steam-lined for offering regular opportunities to get the little things right than WvW and thus, I spend what time I can playing sPvP instead of WvW. If Thief were designed to once again be more a of dueling specialist and fighting roamer, I would play that style too, but I wouldn’t forego the numerous advantages of teamwork to do so.

I’m not a hobbie shrink. I’m a hobbie consultant! “Hardest” is relative to the player in question. If someone is really socially minded and team-oriented, the hardest activities are going to tend to be the ones they have to do by themselves because of how unrewarding it can be. Similarly, for the more expertise-oriented player, the hardest activities aren’t going to be the ones you take part in as a solo WvW player. The hardest thing for you would seem to be doing something that doesn’t seem to take as much perceived skill/practice but is really beneficially to a team, like a playing a Mercy Rune rez bot build. I would bet this would be harder for you because I imagine it would basically bore you to sleep. I know it would bore me to death, which is largely why I only play Thief. Even our support builds in sPvP have high offensive stats and a great capacity for taking advantage of the mistakes of others. Perhaps you should try it if you want to see first-hand what the current optimal Thief build and style is all about. At the very least, it would allow you to put your very valid arguments against Thief viability in a more proper context.

rennlc.7346:

snip

Wvw is something differently than pvp – we have the same goal but we need to do different stuff. I think if I’d ask my server whether or not they think I’m team oriented, they’d say I very much am. But to achieve that I need to be able to defend myself alone. x
And even if a 1 vs 1 in pvp is useless, we pretty much share the same abilities in both game modes. And that’s why I argue – because I can’t play my preferred game mode like I used to and like I need to.

Not sure if that covers everything – not in a good mood today, so I’m not really concentrated.

ETA: x I need to do so no matter my role in wvw, whether 1 vs 1, 5 vs 5, zerg vs zerg, zerg vs blob, blob vs blob.

Jana.6831:

Although I mostly won against mesmers, don’t know if they were that UP or if I won because it was my favourite class to fight.

It’s not that they were underpowered, it’s just that thief was uniquely designed to counter them. A squishy target with low sustain and less access to stealth, and illusions that made cloak and dagger reliable to hit even if the thief wasn’t dagger/pistol.

Basically, they were forced to rely on jedi like-anticipation reflexes when 1v1ing thieves. With the baseline illusionary persona, they’re able to pick up prismatic understanding without too much of a cost, and combined with the pledge, they can stealth for more or less the same amount of time (With the exception of shadow refuge vs mass invisibility post PU nerf.) Additionally, the steal skill vs mesmers was one of the better ones, though personally I still preferred the whirling axe on warriors. So many didn’t have the presence of mind to not run in and try to melee me in my smoke field while blinding bolts were flying everywhere.

Not sure how people are continuing to argue against each other…

If you read careful, most people seem to support role/build diversification for the thief even when they’re arguing against the same point – for instance (yeah call you guys out) rennlc, Kageseigi, and bliss.

Like:

Kageseigi.2150:

…
Again, my whole point is this… I hope ANet broadens the viability of the Thief. I don’t want to take away anyone’s playstyle… not a single one. I’m not against “+1 and decapping.” But I would prefer other viable playstyles and roles in addition to it, and I don’t see why that would be a bad thing.
…

rennlc.7346:

…
I don’t mind people attempting to seek improvements to the class. I want a build I can solo less selectively with and even Rambo with too on occasion (I also don’t want to win because my class is overpowered).
…

bliss.4305:

…
Although there is clearly something that stops you doing all those, right? The effectiveness and viability of these roles. I think NO thief would argue, if I said we clearly lack on the diversity department. But apart from a few classes which are blessed with multiple viable range of options… all classes suffer this. Some roles are inherently better for specific classes for the conquest 5 versus 5 type of gameplay.
…

Pretty sure you’re on the same page …

What S/D (for instance) does or doesn’t currently is a bit irrelevant, since that can change as it could be switched to another role should the developrs see fit.

My take on it:

S/x could fill (and to a degree it already does/tries to) our melee dueling role. Give it a mixture of evades, stealth, damage, CCs, and some passive defensives (hp regen included in that) so it can go teo-to-teo with whomever it’s dueling. Our defensives currently are really stealth and evade, mess up once or twice and you’re done. Dealing with condis isn’t pleasant either, again either via stealth or via traits in DrD. For instance, we should be able to be part of the WvW frontline, or in sPvP we should be able to be participant of 1v1 or a team fight.

D/x could fill (and again, to a degree it already does/tries to) our melee assassination role. Give it stupid damage, a way to engage (shadowsteping, stealthing), barely any defense, and a “risky” way of disengaging. But the damage has to be worth DIEING for, because after the assassination attempt we might not get away. This can double up as the current +1. As in, since going in 1v2 is risky, since although you can kill 1 of the 2 targets the 2nd target might (good probability) kill you after you’re finished with 1. So, if there are X duelists engaged in a 1v1 or 3v3, you can hope in to +1 and drop one of the opponents, having your allies increase the chance of you making it alive post assassination. Or being the damage for a bunker buddy. Besides +1’ing, it should also be able to solo cappers/decappers, first strike/“surprise” matters.

Staff could fill the dodge/evade tank role, give it superb survivability (out of stealth, shouldn’t rely much on stealth), some CCs, but not so much damage. Sure it can kill (give it time) but it’s point is to hold the ground for as long as it can (hoping for allies to come and lend a hand).

SB could fill (and again, to a degree it already does) our decapping/roaming/scouting/mobility role. Give it superb mobility, some survivability (not a lot, but some, in case it takes a bit of hits here and there whilst running), but not a lot of damage. Point of this is to get around quick. Scouting in WvW, decapping in PvP. +1’ing is not benificial, since you will be hitting equal to a bunker, not surviving much, and the D/x assassin role can +1 much better.

P/x could fill our ranged dueling role. Same as S/x just a bit less survivability to encourage playing at range and some position just ranged. In WvW this role should be the back/mid line. Perhaps, P/P should be a straight up backline role. In a duel against a melee duel somehow encourage kiting or positioning out of melee range.

Rifle – just want to bring it up, in relation to the roles above – could be ranged assassination role. Again stupid damage, no way to engage (as in get close to the target), I would be against lots of stealth, and an “iffy”/“risky” way to disengage/get away from melees. It should be that, if a melee assassin gets the first strike (sneaking up) the ranged one dies, if the range one gets the first strike. Straight up backline in WvW. Same thing for sPvP as melee assassin.

X/X – not weapon dependent, or maybe a new weapon… like … scepter? – could be a support. Via providing boons, CC’ing, and/or venoms. >.> I dislike supporting, so … yeah… no ideas from my side. :P

Traits and spec lines would need to be overhauled. And I would argue to go back to the old “60/60/20/0/0” or “6/6/2/0/0” system minus the stats on lines. Perhaps even adding more depth into the lines or additional lines. It could also be a hybrid like between the current/new and the old. As in have pick and choose 5 trait lines but not enough points to complete them all. The idea would be to provide enough traiting “depth” to enable you to trait specifically for said roles and supporting said weapons… The reason for this is that we cannot choose weapon skills, so a D/D will have the same playstyle. Yeah you can argue about the minor tactical differences you make between different D/D “builds”, but you’re still following what D/D allows you to do. And here if you mix your traits too much, you will get kitten, if you mix them just right you can make a duelist and so forth. 2nd weapon set could become a supplement to the main, but again, if you mix the traits too much trying to make both the main weapon set and 2nd viable, you will make both of them sub-par as to what they individually/when mained could do.

Once again… Kind of restating from my other long kitten post, which like 2 people read and replied… Roles would need to be balanced across classes. So our melee assassin role should be balanced with other class’ melee assassins, same for bunker, duelist and so forth… Which means, sitting down and coming up with role-to-weapons (similar to how I did above) for other classes.

Jana.6831:

rennlc.7346:

snip

Wvw is something differently than pvp – we have the same goal but we need to do different stuff. I think if I’d ask my server whether or not they think I’m team oriented, they’d say I very much am. But to achieve that I need to be able to defend myself alone. x
And even if a 1 vs 1 in pvp is useless, we pretty much share the same abilities in both game modes. And that’s why I argue – because I can’t play my preferred game mode like I used to and like I need to.

Not sure if that covers everything – not in a good mood today, so I’m not really concentrated.

ETA: x I need to do so no matter my role in wvw, whether 1 vs 1, 5 vs 5, zerg vs zerg, zerg vs blob, blob vs blob.

On paper, it seems like Thief would be one of the strongest WvW solo roaming classes with a condi P/D trapper rune build. The burst combo of Needle Trap + Steal w/ confusion + Sneak Attack looks like it could be the kind of combo people would want nerfed. It also seems like everything that makes SA D/P great for coordinated play in sPvP, particularly the stealth rezzes and the ability to disengage from focus fire with the instant stealth from Steal or Blinding Powder, would be just as good (if not better) for coordinated play in WvW. Some builds are hurting in a bad way (and the way of playing them is hurt along with it) but it also seems like you’re pigeon-holing yourself into playing those builds and roles unnecessarily.