Guild Wars 2

Shadow step stomping is far from the easiest “cheese” ways to stomp people, at least it was still counter able. Elementalist’s Mist Form stomp has no counter at all.

Sithaco.4673:

Shadow step stomping is far from the easiest “cheese” ways to stomp people, at least it was still counter able. Elementalist’s Mist Form stomp has no counter at all.

Well, thieves could stealth up. But other classes without someone near to stealth them are screwed.

Serious Thought.5394:

"We gotta nerf Thief. Somehow."
"Well we tried steal, but the outcry was potent. How about a utility?"
"Brilliant, ah here is one. Shadowstep. How about-"

Welcome to 2k15.

^This. F*** off thieves already! Anet, go nerf some noob-friendly classes, for once. GDI.

Havent even heard of this. It sounds like mesmer portal-stomping, hope that one is still valid?

Nothing OP about shadowstep stomping. It’s just like popping other stability or invuln cooldowns, portal, etc.

Sword 2 stomping was a bit OP because it was an effectively cost-free action. You gained back the init you spent on the teleport as part of the stomp. That nerf was one of the few thief nerfs that actually made sense.

Shadowstep stomping though, that’s fine. It’s actually way easier for your target’s team to counter than other “protected stomps”, requires blowing a lengthy cooldown to accomplish, and requires that your target doesn’t have any downed-movement abilities.

Puz.8529:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

snip

If it undermines the downed skills, sure why not. Another thing they can do is improve the downed skills so they are actually useful. Or they can just remove the whole downed state since everyone tries to undermine it anyway.

Sadly that means this topic can be closed. You are saying that you find downed state is being ignored by a certain type of skill and it should not be.

Whether we agree or not doesn’t matter, since the design team working on this game just implemented exactly that as their new thing -> Function Gyro.

They can save themselves precious resources by just getting rid of downed state. If your health reaches zero, you’re dead — no more stompping.

What’s really the point of the downed skills if they are going to design skills or allow skills that undermines them?

There are few downed skills that can guarantee to counter a stomp (i.e. Vapor Form, Vengeance) but these are not available for every profession. Downed skills in general are useless skills even more so when they are being bypasssed.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Puz.8529:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

snip

If it undermines the downed skills, sure why not. Another thing they can do is improve the downed skills so they are actually useful. Or they can just remove the whole downed state since everyone tries to undermine it anyway.

Sadly that means this topic can be closed. You are saying that you find downed state is being ignored by a certain type of skill and it should not be.

Whether we agree or not doesn’t matter, since the design team working on this game just implemented exactly that as their new thing -> Function Gyro.

They can save themselves precious resources by just getting rid of downed state. If your health reaches zero, you’re dead — no more stompping.

What’s really the point of the downed skills if they are going to design skills or allow skills that undermines them?

There are few downed skills that can guarantee to counter a stomp (i.e. Vapor Form, Vengeance) but these are not available for every profession. Downed skills in general are useless skills even more so when they are being bypasssed.

Thieves have one one very niche role in pvpo that they excel at currently, and that is stomping. Shadowstep, steal, stealth, and our new elite actually make us very good at stomping, even in a crowded fight. Considering that our previous decap role is completely invalidated by the new (well, returning) super-bunker meta why would you suggest getting rid of the only thing thieves actually bring to a team these days?

PopeUrban.2578:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Puz.8529:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

snip

If it undermines the downed skills, sure why not. Another thing they can do is improve the downed skills so they are actually useful. Or they can just remove the whole downed state since everyone tries to undermine it anyway.

Sadly that means this topic can be closed. You are saying that you find downed state is being ignored by a certain type of skill and it should not be.

Whether we agree or not doesn’t matter, since the design team working on this game just implemented exactly that as their new thing -> Function Gyro.

They can save themselves precious resources by just getting rid of downed state. If your health reaches zero, you’re dead — no more stompping.

What’s really the point of the downed skills if they are going to design skills or allow skills that undermines them?

There are few downed skills that can guarantee to counter a stomp (i.e. Vapor Form, Vengeance) but these are not available for every profession. Downed skills in general are useless skills even more so when they are being bypasssed.

Thieves have one one very niche role in pvpo that they excel at currently, and that is stomping. Shadowstep, steal, stealth, and our new elite actually make us very good at stomping, even in a crowded fight. Considering that our previous decap role is completely invalidated by the new (well, returning) super-bunker meta why would you suggest getting rid of the only thing thieves actually bring to a team these days?

What I’m talking about is, if a Thief downed someone, that someone is just sent to the respawn — no more stompping. Which means that it’s even better for the Thief since they don’t have to risk themselves trying to stomp someone since the Thief will undermine the counterplay anyway.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

PopeUrban.2578:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Puz.8529:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

snip

If it undermines the downed skills, sure why not. Another thing they can do is improve the downed skills so they are actually useful. Or they can just remove the whole downed state since everyone tries to undermine it anyway.

Sadly that means this topic can be closed. You are saying that you find downed state is being ignored by a certain type of skill and it should not be.

Whether we agree or not doesn’t matter, since the design team working on this game just implemented exactly that as their new thing -> Function Gyro.

They can save themselves precious resources by just getting rid of downed state. If your health reaches zero, you’re dead — no more stompping.

What’s really the point of the downed skills if they are going to design skills or allow skills that undermines them?

There are few downed skills that can guarantee to counter a stomp (i.e. Vapor Form, Vengeance) but these are not available for every profession. Downed skills in general are useless skills even more so when they are being bypasssed.

Thieves have one one very niche role in pvpo that they excel at currently, and that is stomping. Shadowstep, steal, stealth, and our new elite actually make us very good at stomping, even in a crowded fight. Considering that our previous decap role is completely invalidated by the new (well, returning) super-bunker meta why would you suggest getting rid of the only thing thieves actually bring to a team these days?

What I’m talking about is, if a Thief downed someone, that someone is just sent to the respawn — no more stompping. Which means that it’s even better for the Thief since they don’t have to risk themselves trying to stomp someone since the Thief will undermine the counterplay anyway.

Because having to use specific skills to do so makes it a build decision, and require a certain modicum of skill. The primary problem with the current meta is that they spread around far too many passive buffs and effects. What you’re suggesting is even more passive effects. That’s just detrimental to the game as a whole.

PopeUrban.2578:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

PopeUrban.2578:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Puz.8529:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

snip

If it undermines the downed skills, sure why not. Another thing they can do is improve the downed skills so they are actually useful. Or they can just remove the whole downed state since everyone tries to undermine it anyway.

Sadly that means this topic can be closed. You are saying that you find downed state is being ignored by a certain type of skill and it should not be.

Whether we agree or not doesn’t matter, since the design team working on this game just implemented exactly that as their new thing -> Function Gyro.

They can save themselves precious resources by just getting rid of downed state. If your health reaches zero, you’re dead — no more stompping.

What’s really the point of the downed skills if they are going to design skills or allow skills that undermines them?

There are few downed skills that can guarantee to counter a stomp (i.e. Vapor Form, Vengeance) but these are not available for every profession. Downed skills in general are useless skills even more so when they are being bypasssed.

Thieves have one one very niche role in pvpo that they excel at currently, and that is stomping. Shadowstep, steal, stealth, and our new elite actually make us very good at stomping, even in a crowded fight. Considering that our previous decap role is completely invalidated by the new (well, returning) super-bunker meta why would you suggest getting rid of the only thing thieves actually bring to a team these days?

What I’m talking about is, if a Thief downed someone, that someone is just sent to the respawn — no more stompping. Which means that it’s even better for the Thief since they don’t have to risk themselves trying to stomp someone since the Thief will undermine the counterplay anyway.

Because having to use specific skills to do so makes it a build decision, and require a certain modicum of skill. The primary problem with the current meta is that they spread around far too many passive buffs and effects. What you’re suggesting is even more passive effects. That’s just detrimental to the game as a whole.

But that’s already where it’s going. Just like how Revealed undermines the whole Shadow Arts trait line — might as well get rid of Shadow Arts if they are going to make skills or allow skills that undermine the trait lines anyway. Same with downed state, they can either stop allowing teleport stomp or get rid of the downed state altogether because really what’s the point.

The downed skill is made to delay a stomp and if I can’t even delay it then it’s pointless to go on that state.

I don’t have any issue with other “safe” stomps like blind, stealth, stab, and invul; but things like, what others have pointed out, mist form, tornado, gyro, etc types of stomps are simply not healthy — especially SS and portal stomps.

They have to draw a line somewhere. Buffs and debuff are good and healthy but not teleport, forms and remote control gyros.

Looks like the Thief forums finally broke Vincent for good.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

But that’s already where it’s going. Just like how Revealed undermines the whole Shadow Arts trait line — might as well get rid of Shadow Arts if they are going to make skills or allow skills that undermine the trait lines anyway. Same with downed state, they can either stop allowing teleport stomp or get rid of the downed state altogether because really what’s the point.

If this logic were applied to everything in the game, then we would be playing pong. “Well, conditions undermines Endure Pain, so you may as well remove Endure Pain! Well, direct damage undermines Berserker Stance, so you may as well remove Berserker Stance! Well, condition cleanses undermine condition application, may as well remove conditions. Well, Stone Heart undermines builds that rely on critical hits, might as well remove the ability to land critical hits.”

The way I see it, part of this game’s balance revolves around countering your opponents abilities with abilities of your own. You cast skill 1, your opponent casts skill 2, you counter that skill with skill 3. The key to winning fights in this game often revolves around minimizing risk to yourself, while maximizing the reward of your actions. If someone is willing to invest in a certain trait or utility to lower the inherent risk of stomping, or tanking, or whatever else, that’s simply part of the game.

Also, you want to know the best counter to being SS stomped, Vincent? Don’t put yourself in a situation where you’ll be in the downed state and the thief will still have SS available.

godz raiden.2631:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

But that’s already where it’s going. Just like how Revealed undermines the whole Shadow Arts trait line — might as well get rid of Shadow Arts if they are going to make skills or allow skills that undermine the trait lines anyway. Same with downed state, they can either stop allowing teleport stomp or get rid of the downed state altogether because really what’s the point.

If this logic were applied to everything in the game, then we would be playing pong. “Well, conditions undermines Endure Pain, so you may as well remove Endure Pain! Well, direct damage undermines Berserker Stance, so you may as well remove Berserker Stance! Well, condition cleanses undermine condition application, may as well remove conditions. Well, Stone Heart undermines builds that rely on critical hits, might as well remove the ability to land critical hits.”

Not even the same logic. You have it backwards.

SS Stomp is similar to denying you your cleanse skill or stun break. The downed skills are created to counter/delay a stomp, just as cleanse is created to counter conditions and stun breaks to counter stun. Undermining the downed skills is like undermining a cleanse and stun breaks.

The way I see it, part of this game’s balance revolves around countering your opponents abilities with abilities of your own. You cast skill 1, your opponent casts skill 2, you counter that skill with skill 3. The key to winning fights in this game often revolves around minimizing risk to yourself, while maximizing the reward of your actions. If someone is willing to invest in a certain trait or utility to lower the inherent risk of stomping, or tanking, or whatever else, that’s simply part of the game.

Yes, you’re right, but a line should be drawn somewhere. As I’ve already mentioned, buffs and debuffs are good; but forms, teleport, and gyros are not.

Also, you want to know the best counter to being SS stomped, Vincent? Don’t put yourself in a situation where you’ll be in the downed state and the thief will still have SS available.

That’s beside the point and is off topic. Even if that is the case, then more the reason why the downed state should just be deleted since everyone will be an expert not going into downed state anyway.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Not even the same logic. You have it backwards.

SS Stomp is similar to denying you your cleanse skill or stun break. The downed skills are created to counter/delay a stomp, just as cleanse is created to counter conditions and stun breaks to counter stun. Undermining the downed skills is like undermining a cleanse and stun breaks.

Yes, you’re right, but a line should be drawn somewhere. As I’ve already mentioned, buffs and debuffs are good; but forms, teleport, and gyros are not.

That’s beside the point and is off topic. Even if that is the case, then more the reason why the downed state should just be deleted since everyone will be an expert not going into downed state anyway.

The issue that I believe myself, and others posting here, have with your line of thinking, is that you think there should be no counterplay to downed skills. Even more pointedly, you seem to believe that some skills should be allowed as counterplay to downed skilled, just not the methods used by thief. The line that YOU draw appears to be “you need to be in melee range during the entirety of the stomping animation.” Which that’s fine I guess, but it’s just your opinion, and I happen to believe that opinion doesn’t really matter when other classes have a far easier time stomping without having the additional risks that are inherent while playing the thief class. I mean, just look at mesmer if you want to see a class that has a plethora of methods to safely stomp, and then realize SS stomping isn’t that bad at all for game balance, especially in the current meta.

Also, your comparison to SS stomp being like denying a condition cleanse or stun break is kind of silly imo. There are some condition cleanses (usually attached to heals) that actually can be denied through interrupts, and as far as stun breaks go, the whole point of CC is to force your opponent to use stun breaks of suffer the consequences of not avoiding the CC. The point I’m trying to make is, the more options of counterplay that are in a game, the more diverse combat can feel and the more creative you can be with your playstyle. Once you start removing innovative ways to accomplish combat goals, even stomping enemies, you really start dumbing this game down, and I don’t think that’s healthy.

I, and I’m sure many other players, especially in this forum, are just a bit tired of balance decisions being made that seem to be in response to posts that people like you make, which only makes our class weaker and more boring to play.

Vincent’s opinion about what is and isn’t ok is clearly superior to everone else’s opinion. Let the masses bow down to the whim of a single player…now that I think about it, I think I know how Anet balances thief.

Zodryn.4216:

Vincent’s opinion about what is and isn’t ok is clearly superior to everone else’s opinion. Let the masses bow down to the whim of a single player…now that I think about it, I think I know how Anet balances thief.

This is the obvious concern I have, even if does seem a bit exaggerated, but when you look at the history of thief balance change you just see mostly nerfs with the occasional “buff” which is usually just a slight reversion of a previous nerf that doesn’t even return what was nerfed to its full original power. I share your worry that posts like Vincent’s will be the ones the devs look at above others, as they seem to have always done, and then leave the thief in an even weaker state. The only way I would be okay with a change to SS stomping is if thief had compensation somewhere else that brought the thief out of its awful state of irrelevance.

godz raiden.2631:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Not even the same logic. You have it backwards.

SS Stomp is similar to denying you your cleanse skill or stun break. The downed skills are created to counter/delay a stomp, just as cleanse is created to counter conditions and stun breaks to counter stun. Undermining the downed skills is like undermining a cleanse and stun breaks.

Yes, you’re right, but a line should be drawn somewhere. As I’ve already mentioned, buffs and debuffs are good; but forms, teleport, and gyros are not.

That’s beside the point and is off topic. Even if that is the case, then more the reason why the downed state should just be deleted since everyone will be an expert not going into downed state anyway.

The issue that I believe myself, and others posting here, have with your line of thinking, is that you think there should be no counterplay to downed skills.

That’s not it at all. Please re-read my posts rather than jumping to a wrong conclusion.

Even more pointedly, you seem to believe that some skills should be allowed as counterplay to downed skilled, just not the methods used by thief.

I’m sorry but you’re wrong. I don’t agree with Mesmer portal either.

The line that YOU draw appears to be “you need to be in melee range during the entirety of the stomping animation.” Which that’s fine I guess, but it’s just your opinion, and I happen to believe that opinion doesn’t really matter when other classes have a far easier time stomping without having the additional risks that are inherent while playing the thief class.

Correction, the line should be to only allow buff and debuff. Any actions used while channelling should interrupt the channel. Any changes in range should also interrupt the channel. By setting these rules (or drawing the line), it doesn’t trivialize the whole downed state and stomping.

What you’re not acknowledging are the facts that these “safe stomps” are indeed undermining the whole downed state and denying any counterplay from the downed player. Instead, all the responses to my argument are based on ignoring these facts. And if you believe that these are what the game suppose to be, then my response to do away with the whole downed state and if you health reach zero, consider yourself stomped.

I mean, just look at mesmer if you want to see a class that has a plethora of methods to safely stomp, and then realize SS stomping isn’t that bad at all for game balance, especially in the current meta.

It doesn’t make it ok nor make the game healthy.

Also, your comparison to SS stomp being like denying a condition cleanse or stun break is kind of silly imo. There are some condition cleanses (usually attached to heals) that actually can be denied through interrupts, and as far as stun breaks go, the whole point of CC is to force your opponent to use stun breaks of suffer the consequences of not avoiding the CC.

This response is what is silly. Interrupting a cleanse is not the same as denying a cleanse in a sense of not actually being able to use any skill. This kind of denial is preventing you from even trying to cleanse. An uncleansable condition only exist in this game in a form of environmental effect like Agony. Denying is like watching myself take damage from 10 stacks of poison and the skills given to my profession cannot be used. This is the same feeling when someone is doing an SS Stomp. The skills given to my profession to counter/delay a stomp cannot be used.

Also CC is not to force your opponent to use their stun break, that’s just silly. Not all CC warrants a stun break. The purpose of stun is to put your opponent into a helpless state while you deal damage to them. SS Stomp is placing your opponent into a helpless state but without a stun break.

The point I’m trying to make is, the more options of counterplay that are in a game, the more diverse combat can feel and the more creative you can be with your playstyle. Once you start removing innovative ways to accomplish combat goals, even stomping enemies, you really start dumbing this game down, and I don’t think that’s healthy.

SS Stomp is not even close to a counter play nor it is a diversity in combat. You’re going off the wrong tangent.

I, and I’m sure many other players, especially in this forum, are just a bit tired of balance decisions being made that seem to be in response to posts that people like you make, which only makes our class weaker and more boring to play.

How does not allowing SS Stomp make Thief weaker? I’ve stomped many times without using this method — and yes I got interrupted as I should. SS Stomp is what’s unhealthy since it trivializes stomping by undermining the downed state and denying the use of downed skills.

If my opinion is non-sensical or unhealthy for the game, then the Dev has no reason to balance the game based on the posts made by people like me. My opinion will still remain my opinion, that will not change.

Sorry Vincent, but if you don’t understand how removing SS stomp from thief without compensating the thief somehow would not make the thief weaker, then you’re just not cut out for this type of conversation. I’m starting to understand why others here have been frustrating debating this with you, because you don’t seem to comprehend what a nerf is.

When you remove the ability of a class to do something, that is a nerf, hands down. If you could perform an intended action before, but can longer perform that action, that’s a nerf, a nerf is the term used to describe when a class/build is made weaker. Removing the ability to SS stomp would be a targeted nerf to SS and remove an aspect of thief that has been in the game for years.

You might not like it, as you said, and I can only hope Anet never takes your opinion on this matter seriously, especially since you think there shouldn’t be a downed state at all, but apparently believe that since there is one the player in downed state should have some sort of advantage against someone willing to burn a 50 second utility to stomp them.

godz raiden.2631:

Sorry Vincent, but if you don’t understand how removing SS stomp from thief without compensating the thief somehow would not make the thief weaker, then you’re just not cut out for this type of conversation. I’m starting to understand why others here have been frustrating debating this with you, because you don’t seem to comprehend what a nerf is.

Yes, the typical opt-out instead of arguing against my points.

When you remove the ability of a class to do something, that is a nerf, hands down.

Nobody is removing or nerfing anything. You’re the one who’s not comprehending what a nerf is because this is not it.

Interrupting an SS Stomp because the range changed from the time the channel was started is no different than interrupting the channel by moving. The rule is already in existence, it just needs to apply to SS Stomp.

If you could perform an intended action before, but can longer perform that action, that’s a nerf, a nerf is the term used to describe when a class/build is made weaker.

This is not a nerf. Stop confusing the topic.

Removing the ability to SS stomp would be a targeted nerf to SS and remove an aspect of thief that has been in the game for years.

It’s not removing anything. It’s applying the same rule that applies to interrupting a stomp by moving. Why is shadowstepping 1200 away be any different from moving an inch? If moving an ich interrupts a stomp, shadowstep should too.

You might not like it, as you said, and I can only hope Anet never takes your opinion on this matter seriously, especially since you think there shouldn’t be a downed state at all, but apparently believe that since there is one the player in downed state should have some sort of advantage against someone willing to burn a 50 second utility to stomp them.

Stop making things up since that is not even close to what I have posted. It is clear now that reading comprehension is an issue for you.

You have a point, Sir Vincent, but on the other hand, why is one of our elite skills “insta stomp”, why do Revenants get easy access to quickness? Why is there such thing as “rez faster” – all of this is already undermining the play and counterplay of downed state.

Jana.6831:

You have a point, Sir Vincent, but on the other hand, why is one of our elite skills “insta stomp”,

That’s why ArenaNet needs to draw a line. Insta stomp and gyro stomp (and the likes) should not have been released, these are not healthy mechanics.

They need to start realizing that if they design a skill or allow a skill to undermine the downed state — they might as well save themselves some precious resources and do away with downed state.

Why create a feature like downed state, hype about it, to only undermine it?
Why set a rule that if you move while stomping that it will interrupt the channel but allow shadowstep to displace the stomper 1200 away without interruption?

It doesn’t make sense.

why do Revenants get easy access to quickness?

Quickness is a buff and open for counter play.

Why is there such thing as “rez faster” – all of this is already undermining the play and counterplay of downed state.

That’s why a line needs to be drawn somewhere. Quickness while stomping or rezzing doesn’t undermine the downed state, it is a counterplay to downed state, the difference is that no one is being denied anything. The stomper can still stomp and the downed player can still use their skills.

Let’s look at this from a different perspective. Let’s flip the situation. Let’s say ArenaNet created a downed skill called Deny. What this skill does is to interrupt the stomp by making the downed player unstompable. If a stomp is denied, the downed player rallies and the stomper don’t get another chance. Then the question would be; “what’s the point of stomping if Deny will just undermine it?”

I don’t disagree, just kind of merging both your arguments, because you’re both right.
Anet does some dangerous stuff lately and brings in things they then nerf on thief (basically) which doesn’t make that much sense. But (that’s your argument) : does it even make sense to have these things in game?!

There’s not so much counter play to qickness when downed, except if you’re a downed revenant.

Jana.6831:

I don’t disagree, just kind of merging both your arguments, because you’re both right.
Anet does some dangerous stuff lately and brings in things they then nerf on thief (basically) which doesn’t make that much sense. But (that’s your argument) : does it even make sense to have these things in game?!

There’s not so much counter play to qickness when downed, except if you’re a downed revenant.

This actually goes to another issue about downed state. The downed skills should not start with a cooldown. If all 4 skills are available from the start, the downed player can effectively counter a stomp even if the stomper has Quickness. But that’s for another topic.

Yeah, that was just an example as how anet makes it easier to stomp players – I’m not really happy with downed skills as well and also not with traits that buff these skills. On the one hand it’s unfair towards those who won the fight, who then maybe rather 111 to death instead of risking being brought down from nearly full health to 0, on the other hand: on how many useful skills do we miss out because of this?
But yes, that’s another topic.