Guild Wars 2

Ryan.8367:

No, but getting a free CND off on ranger pets yields all the rewards of 30 in SA. It’s your case it’s just flipped around. There’s a reason why CND has a high initiative cost, it yields a big reward – it’s supposed to be a risk in terms of getting off as you need to usually get it off on a target that can dodge it (it does have an obvious animation for a reason) , in the case for ranger pets, there isn’t one. It’s guaranteed. That’s all.

Nope, it has nothing to do with my case. CnD did not make the 30 points you put into a trait line (lets use NM as an example) completely useless.

When a CnD that hits your spirits instantly de-spawns all of them and puts them on CD, then we can talk – I mean, ranger wouldn’t be as kittened because the minor traits in NM would still function (as opposed to SA, who’s minor traits are all stealth reliant), but you’d have a valid point.

Since that is not the case, you continue to have no point.

Ryan.8367:

I don’t run spirit builds or run anything in NM, that’s a choice, much like a choice you can make not going 30 in SA as well. There are thieves that do that btw. Having a pet isn’t a choice. What I’m getting at is you’re abusing a mechanic you know doesn’t work to get an easy reward. Stealth isn’t just used to garnish the effects of SA, it’s also a disengage much like mesmers when they stealth.

If you’d like to continue this discussion, feel free to message me privately or start another thread. You’re bringing up off topic points that have nothing to do with why a undodgeable, uncleansable hard counter is a poor design choice, this conversation doesn’t belong here.

Stealth is more of a class feature then a mechanic, given 3 other professions have access to it.

ensoriki.5789:

Stealth is more of a class feature then a mechanic, given 3 other professions have access to it.

When they get stealth attacks that replace their auto attack which the designers took into consideration when designing how the class would play, you’ll be right.

Until then, incorrect.

Edit: Lets also note that those classes don’t have an entire trait line where every single minor trait and every single worthwhile major trait has the prerequisite “On/In Stealth”

Bazzoong.7145:

…
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.

There is the actual value of this change. Stealth was the only sure stomp save in the game. It had no counter play. Really I don’t think it is that big a deal, because if you are a Ranger what are you giving up for “Sic em’”? Probably a spirit. While having a counter play for stealth is valuable the spirits are the crutch that make most ranger builds viable right now, and on the whole I think that the spirits actually carry more value.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Bazzoong.7145:

…
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.

There is the actual value of this change. Stealth was the only sure stomp save in the game. It had no counter play. Really I don’t think it is that big a deal, because if you are a Ranger what are you giving up for “Sic em’”? Probably a spirit. While having a counter play for stealth is valuable the spirits are the crutch that make most ranger builds viable right now, and on the whole I think that the spirits actually carry more value.

The anti-stealth counter should have simply been “The thief is visible, even while in stealth, for 4s” – that would solve everyone’s issue without locking a thief out of their SA traits and stealth attacks.

evilapprentice.6379:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Bazzoong.7145:

…
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.

There is the actual value of this change. Stealth was the only sure stomp save in the game. It had no counter play. Really I don’t think it is that big a deal, because if you are a Ranger what are you giving up for “Sic em’”? Probably a spirit. While having a counter play for stealth is valuable the spirits are the crutch that make most ranger builds viable right now, and on the whole I think that the spirits actually carry more value.

The anti-stealth counter should have simply been “The thief is visible, even while in stealth, for 4s” – that would solve everyone’s issue without locking a thief out of their SA traits and stealth attacks.

^ +1, Sic em should only allow the ranger to see the thief but still allow the thief to be in stealth. It would allow the ranger to 1v1 a thief with more dynamics but it would also introduce some interesting team play and coordination for smaller skirmishes. Completely locking out a trait line is just bad implementation.

All this because rangers don’t know how to manage their pets.

Curious as to what on earth made anyone think you could dodge a shout in the first place? I can’t dodge and make a guardian not gain stability from SYG

Fletch.3572:

Curious as to what on earth made anyone think you could dodge a shout in the first place? I can’t dodge and make a guardian not gain stability from SYG

The skill can be used while a thief is already dodging/evading – it’s dumbed down to the extreme, you can’t even make a mistake via poor play. It always works, and that’s just silly.

It’s the thought process behind the design that concerns me, not so much the application.

Fletch.3572:

Curious as to what on earth made anyone think you could dodge a shout in the first place? I can’t dodge and make a guardian not gain stability from SYG

They never specified how the reveal was being applied. Will it be applied by the shout? will it be applied by the pet attacking that the shout causes? If the reveal is applied by the shout, instantly well they yeah it can’t be dodged. However if the pet was to be doing the reveal application then yeah it would make sense that it could be dodged. Anyways they cleared it up, still think it was a good question.

It’s a shout application on cast I’m sure since they said it can’t be dodged. Also, this is purely for support reasons in group play as this is a mostly support patch, not because rangers can’t manage their pets.

But since it seems to work better for us in 1on1s, well, guess it’s time to go destroy some thieves!

Zacchary.6183:

All this because rangers don’t know how to manage their pets.

As a reminder, rangers pets doesn’t have an Independant skill like in Gw1.

And it’s not a matter of rangers not knowing how to manage their pets, it’s a mater of giving them Value as our pets than being held hostage by a broken Ai mechanic.

(did you also know that ranger s pets; after 14+ months can not attack moving targets?)

In other words, your statements completely Violate the Validaty of the truth about our pets.

Zacchary.6183:

All this because rangers don’t know how to manage their pets.

Did someone forget to take their medicine?

Well, it really shows how incapable Anet is at addressing problems. I agree that the no-risk stealth on d/p was way over the top and it needed a nerf, but “counter-play” mechanics to stealth like the new Sic’ Em are stupid. Just nerfing the black powder duration for example would’ve been more than enough to effectively nerf perma stealth, but instead they take these absurd approaches and poorly thought out changes.

Bottomline is, d/p in WvW actually needs some nerfing, the rest is okay. As far as spvp is concerned, thief might be one of the weakest classes there already, as far as I can tell. Better nerf it even further.

you guys are so ridiculous. The Ranger is SOOO BAD. Youre worried about a Ranger revealing you??? They have to waste a utility slot to use a skill that sucks with a 40s CD. You will never see anyone use this garbage stop crying. If youre terrified of a Ranger keeping you from stealth just quit Thief anyway. We are still so mobile that we can survive 4 seconds, I assure you.

UrMom.4205:

evilapprentice.6379:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Bazzoong.7145:

…
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.

There is the actual value of this change. Stealth was the only sure stomp save in the game. It had no counter play. Really I don’t think it is that big a deal, because if you are a Ranger what are you giving up for “Sic em’”? Probably a spirit. While having a counter play for stealth is valuable the spirits are the crutch that make most ranger builds viable right now, and on the whole I think that the spirits actually carry more value.

The anti-stealth counter should have simply been “The thief is visible, even while in stealth, for 4s” – that would solve everyone’s issue without locking a thief out of their SA traits and stealth attacks.

^ +1, Sic em should only allow the ranger to see the thief but still allow the thief to be in stealth. It would allow the ranger to 1v1 a thief with more dynamics but it would also introduce some interesting team play and coordination for smaller skirmishes. Completely locking out a trait line is just bad implementation.

Its not completely locking out a traitline. Its a 4s reveal and its garbage. Ranger can barely kill a Moa in 4 seconds, let alone a Thief. L2P

evilapprentice.6379:

- scorpion wire ignores block/dodge and removes all adrenaline
- Needle trap ignores block/dodge and despawns ranger pet and puts them on a 4s CD
- Signet of Shadows ignores block/dodge, knocks necro’s out of DS and locks it for 4s.

Yes please, need some equality. Give us some skills to completely disable another class’s function and we can have some exciting GW2 rock paper scissors.

To be fair it can be traited to 32seconds (all you need is 10 points in beastmastery) and it’ll usually be casted, atleast by good rangers when you’ve gotten pretty low in health and they’re expecting a SR / BP / CnD.

Yes, Sic’em shuts down all Shadow Arts minors and some Majors for 4 seconds. No, I don’t see this as bad design, I see it as a counter. I agree that it could have been implemented better, however.

No, bad design is on Necromancers where their class mechanic shuts down their own trait line. A Necro cannot be healed in death shroud, so when the traits are all about health stealing and getting regeneration, well, you get the picture.

I just figured I’d pop into the thief forums to see what was being talked about with the various buffs. I’m amused you are all whining about nerfs.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yes, Sic’em shuts down all Shadow Arts minors and some Majors for 4 seconds. No, I don’t see this as bad design, I see it as a counter. I agree that it could have been implemented better, however.

No, bad design is on Necromancers where their class mechanic shuts down their own trait line. A Necro cannot be healed in death shroud, so when the traits are all about health stealing and getting regeneration, well, you get the picture.

I just figured I’d pop into the thief forums to see what was being talked about with the various buffs. I’m amused you are all whining about nerfs.

WTF? you call 2 buff various buff? ONLY 2 BUFF: Venomus Aura and Blinding Powder, 2 tweeks: Body Shot and Lotus Poison, end the rest are only nerf or bug corrections. Thives guild getting more hp in PvE is a poor solution, in my opinion, about minions balance. And thives have few Immobilize skills to get someting of that. You are just a troll dude.

Doggie.3184:

evilapprentice.6379:

- scorpion wire ignores block/dodge and removes all adrenaline
- Needle trap ignores block/dodge and despawns ranger pet and puts them on a 4s CD
- Signet of Shadows ignores block/dodge, knocks necro’s out of DS and locks it for 4s.

Yes please, need some equality. Give us some skills to completely disable another class’s function and we can have some exciting GW2 rock paper scissors.

While he has a point with adrenaline.
Both Necro’s Life shroud and the rangers pet can be forced out by damage which we’re already capable of doing. Can’t say anything about Adrenaline though.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yes, Sic’em shuts down all Shadow Arts minors and some Majors for 4 seconds. No, I don’t see this as bad design, I see it as a counter. I agree that it could have been implemented better, however.

No, bad design is on Necromancers where their class mechanic shuts down their own trait line. A Necro cannot be healed in death shroud, so when the traits are all about health stealing and getting regeneration, well, you get the picture.

I just figured I’d pop into the thief forums to see what was being talked about with the various buffs. I’m amused you are all whining about nerfs.

It’s actually much better when you apply those shut downs to yourself because that way, you can control when it happens and play accordingly. Thieves have always been applying revealed to themselves when we attack in stealth. But now, a random ranger can come along at 2000 range and apply an undodgeable revealed?

A necro’s health is untouchable when they go into death shroud and they can gain life force during that time. Why would you still care about health?

ensoriki.5789:

Doggie.3184:

evilapprentice.6379:

- scorpion wire ignores block/dodge and removes all adrenaline
- Needle trap ignores block/dodge and despawns ranger pet and puts them on a 4s CD
- Signet of Shadows ignores block/dodge, knocks necro’s out of DS and locks it for 4s.

Yes please, need some equality. Give us some skills to completely disable another class’s function and we can have some exciting GW2 rock paper scissors.

While he has a point with adrenaline.
Both Necro’s Life shroud and the rangers pet can be forced out by damage which we’re already capable of doing. Can’t say anything about Adrenaline though.

Thieves can be forced out of stealth by being downed while they’re invisible. ;/

ensoriki.5789:

Doggie.3184:

evilapprentice.6379:

- scorpion wire ignores block/dodge and removes all adrenaline
- Needle trap ignores block/dodge and despawns ranger pet and puts them on a 4s CD
- Signet of Shadows ignores block/dodge, knocks necro’s out of DS and locks it for 4s.

Yes please, need some equality. Give us some skills to completely disable another class’s function and we can have some exciting GW2 rock paper scissors.

While he has a point with adrenaline.
Both Necro’s Life shroud and the rangers pet can be forced out by damage which we’re already capable of doing. Can’t say anything about Adrenaline though.

“Killing” a pet or a necro in ds is not the same thing. If we followed your logic, you can say that you can force thieves out of stealth by applying enough damage to them. How much stealthing is the thief going to do when he’s dead? He’s talking about being able to disable an entire class function with a single skill.

12 thieves have already been hunted by my ranger since Sic Em has been buffed…. The best part was watching them flail around helplessly wondering why they couldn’t stealth. Muahahaahah

magom.3275:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yes, Sic’em shuts down all Shadow Arts minors and some Majors for 4 seconds. No, I don’t see this as bad design, I see it as a counter. I agree that it could have been implemented better, however.

No, bad design is on Necromancers where their class mechanic shuts down their own trait line. A Necro cannot be healed in death shroud, so when the traits are all about health stealing and getting regeneration, well, you get the picture.

I just figured I’d pop into the thief forums to see what was being talked about with the various buffs. I’m amused you are all whining about nerfs.

WTF? you call 2 buff various buff? ONLY 2 BUFF: Venomus Aura and Blinding Powder, 2 tweeks: Body Shot and Lotus Poison, end the rest are only nerf or bug corrections.

So, I guess Roll For Initiative/ Withdraw should be restored to not moving you if you were immobilized, because that was better? Lotus Poison should go back to the global cooldown (this is very much a buff, as all similar traits are global cooldown)? Smoke Bomb should go back to not being a finisher? Well, I guess if you don’t like those buffs…

The only nerfs thieves got was in Larcenous Strike and Shadow Trap. Body Shot was indeed a tweak (not really better or worse, just different).

@Shinjo: Yes, it is better and more controllable (though you can’t control when the regen boon pops up or when other people try to heal you), but that doesn’t make it any less bad design. I agree that Sic’Em’s buff could have been better implemented, but I still call this blown way out of proportion. If a thief can’t survive those four extra seconds, I’m not going to shed a tear for their demise. They got out-played.

evilapprentice.6379:

cyyrix.6105:

Sic’em is a 4s revealed on 40s CD.

If I were you, I’d be more worried about the Shadow’s Embrace nerf the dev accidentally showed in the tooltip (condi removal every 10s in stealth instead of 3s).

Its not about the duration or the CD, its about the basic design principle.

A skill that completely locks out 33% of a thiefs class mechanics, and potentially 42% of their total trait points (if they’re 30 into SA) is kitten poor design. Making it completely unavoidable removes all skill from the equation – it doesn’t matter if I outplay the kitten out of you, you can slot a button that says “you are revealed for 4s, no matter what you do”, and that’s just dumb.

you mean just how thiefs had a skill locking out 90% of other classes’s mechanics and trait points? you know like stealth? 90% of the time? trololol

sic em has a short duration 4s dodge twice and stealth again easy as that
and it has a 40s cd so not it is not as bad as you exagerate

also the sic em skill only applies the debuff if the ranger had you targetted in the first place

Ryan.8367:

12 thieves have already been hunted by my ranger since Sic Em has been buffed…. The best part was watching them flail around helplessly wondering why they couldn’t stealth. Muahahaahah

im an engineer and this skill trolled me hard twice lol

You still steal a 15s water field from rangers. Ranger’s own water field is only 10s now. Please, consider things like that before carrying on too much guys.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

magom.3275:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yes, Sic’em shuts down all Shadow Arts minors and some Majors for 4 seconds. No, I don’t see this as bad design, I see it as a counter. I agree that it could have been implemented better, however.

No, bad design is on Necromancers where their class mechanic shuts down their own trait line. A Necro cannot be healed in death shroud, so when the traits are all about health stealing and getting regeneration, well, you get the picture.

I just figured I’d pop into the thief forums to see what was being talked about with the various buffs. I’m amused you are all whining about nerfs.

WTF? you call 2 buff various buff? ONLY 2 BUFF: Venomus Aura and Blinding Powder, 2 tweeks: Body Shot and Lotus Poison, end the rest are only nerf or bug corrections.

So, I guess Roll For Initiative/ Withdraw should be restored to not moving you if you were immobilized, because that was better? Lotus Poison should go back to the global cooldown (this is very much a buff, as all similar traits are global cooldown)? Smoke Bomb should go back to not being a finisher? Well, I guess if you don’t like those buffs…

The only nerfs thieves got was in Larcenous Strike and Shadow Trap. Body Shot was indeed a tweak (not really better or worse, just different).

@Shinjo: Yes, it is better and more controllable (though you can’t control when the regen boon pops up or when other people try to heal you), but that doesn’t make it any less bad design. I agree that Sic’Em’s buff could have been better implemented, but I still call this blown way out of proportion. If a thief can’t survive those four extra seconds, I’m not going to shed a tear for their demise. They got out-played.

Dont you know to read?

Withdraw and Roll for Initiative: These skills now properly remove immobilize upon execution.

Is a bug fix not a buff.

Smoke bomb is a downed skill that is a crap in PvE and the patch note dont say nothing about that. Maybe you mean Bliding Powder? the one i already say was one of thye only 2 buff we get?

TROLL

I trolled a few Thieves with it….was pretty funny..

Like i suggested to other Rangers though, Don’t use it unless you use Traveler Runes, or you’re a Bear Ranger, as a Bear Ranger has to be useful for something.

evilapprentice.6379:

Ryan.8367:

evilapprentice.6379:

Kaizer.7135:

A hard counter is better than no counter at all, and whoop-de-doo, 4 second reveal isn’t going to get you killed unless you suck at Thief.

Please read all the other posts that have said this.

The CD, the length of the effect, whether or not rangers run it – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT AN UNAVOIDABLE HARD COUNTER TO UP TO 42% OF CLASSES TRAIT POINTS AS WELL AS 33% OF THEIR CLASS MECHANICS IS STUPID DESIGN. It’s following on the poor precedent set by anti-stealth traps in Wvw (Like I said would happen when they announced anti-stealth traps). It’s lazy and it removes skill from the equation, because it can’t be avoided.

Just fyi, you guys get unavoidable CND’s on our pets that can’t dodge too. I guess abusing bad design only works one way.

If you’d like to make a case that pets that you chose to bring to the fight (Excluding Ranger pets, since they can’t choose to not bring their pet) are too easy to CnD, please do so, only elsewhere. It has no bearing on this conversation.

Being able to CnD a pet that can’t dodge is in no way comparable to an undodgeable, uncleansable hard counter to stealth, because a thief going stealth off your pet doesn’t have the potential to negate 30 trait points and part of your class mechanics.

It has lots of bearing

Your point is faulty if you think stealth is your class mechanic and this locks you out. Stealth is a choice you make and your class just happens to have significant access to it.

Your unique class mechanic is really initiative and stealing.

Sickem is a hard counter to the stealth strategy and secs considered this for ranger because ranger has no ability to counter cloak and dagger on pets that dodge or be stowed. Not to mention ranger has no access to agegis to block it.

Sorry they were given a way to counter a thief strategy they were unable to counter before

I also want you to know that the rebuff does not stack in duration. By no means is this op. besides the skill wasn’t evadable before. If it was evadable the other half of this skill would work even less properly than it already does.

And if you feel pigeon holed into stealth. Think about how ele feels with their trait line.

I’ve run minimal stealth build like s d with withdraw and you know what. You don’t have to spam stealth to win or even feel forced down that trait line

End rant

Rezzet.3614:

you mean just how thiefs had a skill locking out 90% of other classes’s mechanics and trait points? you know like stealth? 90% of the time? trololol

I forgot that stealth completely turned off your brain. It’s impossible to attempt to predict where the thief might be headed on his weaponset, to use AoE’s or auto attacks to attempt to hit him while he’s in stealth.

It’s a wonder I’ve been managing to do it so consistently for nearly a year – I’m not even that good. It’s strange though, all my traits continue to work when a thief uses stealth…maybe I should bug report that? You know, seeing as it’s been completely shutting you and so many others down where anyone with the barest understanding of the games mechanics would have figured this out months ago.

If you can’t dodge people while stealthed on a Thief, you’re bad…its really that simple..

Chopps.5047:

You still steal a 15s water field from rangers. Ranger’s own water field is only 10s now. Please, consider things like that before carrying on too much guys.

Not sure where you’re pulling this 15s number from, because the stolen water field lasts 5 seconds. Please, consider this before pretending to know what you’re talking about.

(Not that this is even relevant to the discussion, I just can’t stand such blatant misinformation.)

rpfohr.7048:

And if you feel pigeon holed into stealth. Think about how ele feels with their trait line.

Many of us feel exactly the opposite. Stealth was always unviable in sPvP, and it’s becoming more and more worthless as a mechanic to build around in this game mode because of the changes that they’re making to appease the WvW crowd.

And the only only valid complaints the WvW crowd has is against the perma-Stealth D/P Thief abusing a broken mechanic that most reasonable Thieves would agree should have been fixed ages ago.

To add insult to injury, the change that they’ve implemented affects perma-Stealth builds the least out of all possible builds that make use of Stealth to varying degrees, because Sic Em requires a target and being in Stealth forever is the only way to avoid ever getting hit by it.

I feel like you are helping my argument by stating the weakness of sickem. It adds an anticipation factor to the skill.

And if you are concerned about trait lines not being used. Well I don’t even remember the power trait line for guardian because the bottom 3 are just so good. All classes at different points of the game have been forced away from certain trait lines this complaint I get. I have been there and understand you just want viable trait lines. But then sickem isn’t an issue. Maybe only an inconvenience. The real issue is the trait line is in need of buffs

Azure.8670:

UrMom.4205:

evilapprentice.6379:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Bazzoong.7145:

…
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.

There is the actual value of this change. Stealth was the only sure stomp save in the game. It had no counter play. Really I don’t think it is that big a deal, because if you are a Ranger what are you giving up for “Sic em’”? Probably a spirit. While having a counter play for stealth is valuable the spirits are the crutch that make most ranger builds viable right now, and on the whole I think that the spirits actually carry more value.

The anti-stealth counter should have simply been “The thief is visible, even while in stealth, for 4s” – that would solve everyone’s issue without locking a thief out of their SA traits and stealth attacks.

^ +1, Sic em should only allow the ranger to see the thief but still allow the thief to be in stealth. It would allow the ranger to 1v1 a thief with more dynamics but it would also introduce some interesting team play and coordination for smaller skirmishes. Completely locking out a trait line is just bad implementation.

Its not completely locking out a traitline.

Its Exactly that – 4s reveal means no accessing anything in SA for 4s, because all of the minor traits and all the major traits worth running are stealth reliant – how you missed an obvious fact plain as day is beyond me.

evilapprentice.6379:

Azure.8670:

UrMom.4205:

evilapprentice.6379:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Bazzoong.7145:

…
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.

There is the actual value of this change. Stealth was the only sure stomp save in the game. It had no counter play. Really I don’t think it is that big a deal, because if you are a Ranger what are you giving up for “Sic em’”? Probably a spirit. While having a counter play for stealth is valuable the spirits are the crutch that make most ranger builds viable right now, and on the whole I think that the spirits actually carry more value.

The anti-stealth counter should have simply been “The thief is visible, even while in stealth, for 4s” – that would solve everyone’s issue without locking a thief out of their SA traits and stealth attacks.

^ +1, Sic em should only allow the ranger to see the thief but still allow the thief to be in stealth. It would allow the ranger to 1v1 a thief with more dynamics but it would also introduce some interesting team play and coordination for smaller skirmishes. Completely locking out a trait line is just bad implementation.

Its not completely locking out a traitline.

Its Exactly that – 4s reveal means no accessing anything in SA for 4s, because all of the minor traits and all the major traits worth running are stealth reliant – how you missed an obvious fact plain as day is beyond me.

Then don’t run everything in SA? It’s a choice to run traits in SA.

lol 4 sec revealed on 40 s cool down in the hands of a weak class. If you can’t learn to deal with it, you have some serious l2p issues.

Ryan.8367:

evilapprentice.6379:

Azure.8670:

UrMom.4205:

evilapprentice.6379:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Bazzoong.7145:

…
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.

There is the actual value of this change. Stealth was the only sure stomp save in the game. It had no counter play. Really I don’t think it is that big a deal, because if you are a Ranger what are you giving up for “Sic em’”? Probably a spirit. While having a counter play for stealth is valuable the spirits are the crutch that make most ranger builds viable right now, and on the whole I think that the spirits actually carry more value.

The anti-stealth counter should have simply been “The thief is visible, even while in stealth, for 4s” – that would solve everyone’s issue without locking a thief out of their SA traits and stealth attacks.

^ +1, Sic em should only allow the ranger to see the thief but still allow the thief to be in stealth. It would allow the ranger to 1v1 a thief with more dynamics but it would also introduce some interesting team play and coordination for smaller skirmishes. Completely locking out a trait line is just bad implementation.

Its not completely locking out a traitline.

Its Exactly that – 4s reveal means no accessing anything in SA for 4s, because all of the minor traits and all the major traits worth running are stealth reliant – how you missed an obvious fact plain as day is beyond me.

Then don’t run everything in SA? It’s a choice to run traits in SA.

Yes, it is choice between survivabiltiy and a lack of……..

Asudementio.8526:

Ryan.8367:

evilapprentice.6379:

Azure.8670:

UrMom.4205:

evilapprentice.6379:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Bazzoong.7145:

…
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.

There is the actual value of this change. Stealth was the only sure stomp save in the game. It had no counter play. Really I don’t think it is that big a deal, because if you are a Ranger what are you giving up for “Sic em’”? Probably a spirit. While having a counter play for stealth is valuable the spirits are the crutch that make most ranger builds viable right now, and on the whole I think that the spirits actually carry more value.

The anti-stealth counter should have simply been “The thief is visible, even while in stealth, for 4s” – that would solve everyone’s issue without locking a thief out of their SA traits and stealth attacks.

^ +1, Sic em should only allow the ranger to see the thief but still allow the thief to be in stealth. It would allow the ranger to 1v1 a thief with more dynamics but it would also introduce some interesting team play and coordination for smaller skirmishes. Completely locking out a trait line is just bad implementation.

Its not completely locking out a traitline.

Its Exactly that – 4s reveal means no accessing anything in SA for 4s, because all of the minor traits and all the major traits worth running are stealth reliant – how you missed an obvious fact plain as day is beyond me.

Then don’t run everything in SA? It’s a choice to run traits in SA.

Yes, it is choice between survivabiltiy and a lack of……..

Get good, shrug, that’s what thieves have told rangers when they’ve come to your threads asking for help on beating a thief in duels or having issues with thieves in general as a ranger.

Get good and come back to me

You’re not going to get sympathy from me or any other ranger really regarding the Sic Em buff, it’s lackluster at best anyway and a good thief still has insane advantages over the ranger class in general. Not to mention most builds that can even go toe to toe with a thief is a condi build because of the survivability WS brings (you know, you’re not the only class being pidgeonholed into one trait line for condition removal) which steals completely destroys, and with BP being a blast now – well , I think you get the picture.. So with that in mind, an op steal that completely counters most builds you’ll face a good ranger as in a 1on1, constant CND’s on a pet that you know can’t dodge, lack of aoe (traps were nerfed too this patch btw) , and pet AI against constant stealthing targets (you do realize it takes the pet 1 1/2 seconds to register that you’ve come out of stealth right? that’s a major dps loss – we’ll compare that 1 second to the PW nerf due to para, it now is at 0.55% when stunning , that makes or breaks a combo of dmg vs 1 full second).

I’d say we’re about even now, and even then , still not really even. I don’t think you realize how much of advantage you have on rangers even going into the fight. I know thief really well, I play one, and I know the weaknesses rangers face against thieves. So please, spare me the victim game.

Kaon.7192:

Chopps.5047:

You still steal a 15s water field from rangers. Ranger’s own water field is only 10s now. Please, consider things like that before carrying on too much guys.

Not sure where you’re pulling this 15s number from, because the stolen water field lasts 5 seconds. Please, consider this before pretending to know what you’re talking about.

(Not that this is even relevant to the discussion, I just can’t stand such blatant misinformation.)

Source: I asked this question to a twitch streamer (docMed) “is it more than 10s?” And he responded “5s”. I interpreted that answer as 10s + 5s. It’s not blatant misinformation just a misunderstanding. Why don’t you just relax hmmmm, I have 80s but not thief yet.

Ryan.8367:

Asudementio.8526:

Ryan.8367:

evilapprentice.6379:

Azure.8670:

UrMom.4205:

evilapprentice.6379:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Bazzoong.7145:

…
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.

There is the actual value of this change. Stealth was the only sure stomp save in the game. It had no counter play. Really I don’t think it is that big a deal, because if you are a Ranger what are you giving up for “Sic em’”? Probably a spirit. While having a counter play for stealth is valuable the spirits are the crutch that make most ranger builds viable right now, and on the whole I think that the spirits actually carry more value.

The anti-stealth counter should have simply been “The thief is visible, even while in stealth, for 4s” – that would solve everyone’s issue without locking a thief out of their SA traits and stealth attacks.

^ +1, Sic em should only allow the ranger to see the thief but still allow the thief to be in stealth. It would allow the ranger to 1v1 a thief with more dynamics but it would also introduce some interesting team play and coordination for smaller skirmishes. Completely locking out a trait line is just bad implementation.

Its not completely locking out a traitline.

Its Exactly that – 4s reveal means no accessing anything in SA for 4s, because all of the minor traits and all the major traits worth running are stealth reliant – how you missed an obvious fact plain as day is beyond me.

Then don’t run everything in SA? It’s a choice to run traits in SA.

Yes, it is choice between survivabiltiy and a lack of……..

Get good, shrug, that’s what thieves have told rangers when they’ve come to your threads asking for help on beating a thief in duels or having issues with thieves in general as a ranger.

Get good and come back to me

You’re not going to get sympathy from me or any other ranger really regarding the Sic Em buff, it’s lackluster at best anyway and a good thief still has insane advantages over the ranger class in general. Not to mention most builds that can even go toe to toe with a thief is a condi build because of the survivability WS brings (you know, you’re not the only class being pidgeonholed into one trait line for condition removal) which steals completely destroys, and with BP being a blast now – well , I think you get the picture.. So with that in mind, an op steal that completely counters most builds you’ll face a good ranger as in a 1on1, constant CND’s on a pet that you know can’t dodge, lack of aoe (traps were nerfed too this patch btw) , and pet AI against constant stealthing targets (you do realize it takes the pet 1 1/2 seconds to register that you’ve come out of stealth right? that’s a major dps loss – we’ll compare that 1 second to the PW nerf due to para, it now is at 0.55% when stunning , that makes or breaks a combo of dmg vs 1 full second).

I’d say we’re about even now, and even then , still not really even. I don’t think you realize how much of advantage you have on rangers even going into the fight. I know thief really well, I play one, and I know the weaknesses rangers face against thieves. So please, spare me the victim game.

I’ll spare you nothing, you certainly aren’t a victim. And i am not talking about small group encounters or duels. When i am commanding i rely on SA to quickly clear conditions if we are in poor placement to group cleanse. Anything hat negates that pushes me close to lyssa runs and full anti condition building which is stupid. Get over yourself.

Chopps.5047:

Kaon.7192:

Chopps.5047:

You still steal a 15s water field from rangers. Ranger’s own water field is only 10s now. Please, consider things like that before carrying on too much guys.

Not sure where you’re pulling this 15s number from, because the stolen water field lasts 5 seconds. Please, consider this before pretending to know what you’re talking about.

(Not that this is even relevant to the discussion, I just can’t stand such blatant misinformation.)

Source: I asked this question to a twitch streamer (docMed) “is it more than 10s?” And he responded “5s”. I interpreted that answer as 10s + 5s. It’s not blatant misinformation just a misunderstanding. Why don’t you just relax hmmmm, I have 80s but not thief yet.

Then don’t speak as an authority or at least double check your information beforing stirring kitten up.

Asudementio.8526:

Chopps.5047:

Kaon.7192:

Chopps.5047:

You still steal a 15s water field from rangers. Ranger’s own water field is only 10s now. Please, consider things like that before carrying on too much guys.

Not sure where you’re pulling this 15s number from, because the stolen water field lasts 5 seconds. Please, consider this before pretending to know what you’re talking about.

(Not that this is even relevant to the discussion, I just can’t stand such blatant misinformation.)

Source: I asked this question to a twitch streamer (docMed) “is it more than 10s?” And he responded “5s”. I interpreted that answer as 10s + 5s. It’s not blatant misinformation just a misunderstanding. Why don’t you just relax hmmmm, I have 80s but not thief yet.

Then don’t speak as an authority or at least double check your information beforing stirring kitten up.

Clearly you don’t understand what a misunderstanding is. I’m sorry life is so complicated for you. Also, who said I’m an authority? My signature says “Ranger Extraordinare”. I know reading is hard, I won’t get on your case too badly.

Mogar.9216:

lol 4 sec revealed on 40 s cool down in the hands of a weak class. If you can’t learn to deal with it, you have some serious l2p issues.

They’re just crying because their “Get out of jail free” card was countered. As a ranger main (and loving my new 80 thief to become 2nd main) I have a hard time killing a thief in WvW. It is NOT because they kill me, It’s because when they are losing, they stealth and run for their mommies. I asked my friend who mains a thief, “how can I kill a thief?”, his reply… “If he’s a stealth build, you never can.”

Will I be using Sic’em in WvW when I solo roam? Nah. It’s only useful in 1vs1 situations and it’s hardly 1vs1 in WvW.

Chopps.5047:

Asudementio.8526:

Chopps.5047:

Kaon.7192:

Chopps.5047:

You still steal a 15s water field from rangers. Ranger’s own water field is only 10s now. Please, consider things like that before carrying on too much guys.

Not sure where you’re pulling this 15s number from, because the stolen water field lasts 5 seconds. Please, consider this before pretending to know what you’re talking about.

(Not that this is even relevant to the discussion, I just can’t stand such blatant misinformation.)

Source: I asked this question to a twitch streamer (docMed) “is it more than 10s?” And he responded “5s”. I interpreted that answer as 10s + 5s. It’s not blatant misinformation just a misunderstanding. Why don’t you just relax hmmmm, I have 80s but not thief yet.

Then don’t speak as an authority or at least double check your information beforing stirring kitten up.

Clearly you don’t understand what a misunderstanding is. I’m sorry life is so complicated for you. Also, who said I’m an authority? My signature says “Ranger Extraordinare”. I know reading is hard, I won’t get on your case too badly.

When you comparing a thief steal ability to your class ability you are using your knowledge as a ranger to contrast perceived imbalances. If you don’t know what those differences actually don’t comment on them as if you know them- it is that simple. If you don’t have a firm understanding of a topic you should be cautious in discussing it; you instead chose to be brazen.

Sanduskel.1850:

He’s right and you are wrong. Deal with the changes. Decent thieves never relied on permastealth to begin with. Buck up!

I think it’s the second time I ask you: can you link a video of your playstyle ?

You keep acting with superiority, implying that stealth thieves are bad.

I’d like to improve, so please, show me some decent thiefing…