Sic em cannot be dodged

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ichishi.9613

Ichishi.9613

It’s poor design. Hard counters, unlike soft counters, SHOULD NOT HAVE INSTANT CAST. Just make it 1/4 or 1/2 cast time and I will totally be okay. Not that this skill will ever be anywhere near useful without total redo.

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: rpfohr.7048

rpfohr.7048

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

I actually think its good design. Perhaps on another class that can block or use aegis or evade it would be bad. But on ranger with free hits on pets for permanent stealth and cloak and dagger

In this instance it was good design.

What’s more poorly designed. That your strategy has a counter. To one of 2 classes that couldn’t counter before? Or maybe it’s that cancels itself out every other time.

This is a small picture thing so stop trying to make it big picture

Also here is your way to counter sickem. Kill the pet. The they cannot use skill. Did you think of that? Last time I checked ranger shouts unusable without pet. So kill it. Your a freakin thief. If your concerned about he future I am sure they will have a weakness and be on a weak skill as is he case with this

(edited by rpfohr.7048)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: evilapprentice.6379

evilapprentice.6379

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Dagraan.2854

Dagraan.2854

so do any of the thieves not do any attacking at all? because if i remember correctly when you spam 1 running behind someone and it finally hits you get 3 to 4 seconds of reveal as well.

why are you so bad that a 4 second reveal from a ranger will kill you. and it can’t even do anything while you’re stealthed.
if you’re so bad at the easiest class in the game then you need to roll a cleric guardian and have nothing but heal skills.

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: evilapprentice.6379

evilapprentice.6379

so do any of the thieves not do any attacking at all? because if i remember correctly when you spam 1 running behind someone and it finally hits you get 3 to 4 seconds of reveal as well.

why are you so bad that a 4 second reveal from a ranger will kill you. and it can’t even do anything while you’re stealthed.
if you’re so bad at the easiest class in the game then you need to roll a cleric guardian and have nothing but heal skills.

From this point on, anyone who makes it clear they haven’t read anything I’ve said up until this point is just wasting their breath – more so than usual, as hard as that is to believe from the displayed lack of reading comprehension.

If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Sanduskel.1850

Sanduskel.1850

The philosophy used here is consistent with every other balancing move, stealth lacked a certain counter. That is one that had less than 5% of actually breaking stealth. I almost never got hit while in stealth. That frequency increased last night. I welcome the challenge. Every other class has had to deal with highly certain counters to their key mechanics. So this precedent that bothers you so much has been here since release. Thieves aren’t special. You aren’t special. Move on.

OP’d thief, lol

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: evilapprentice.6379

evilapprentice.6379

The philosophy used here is consistent with every other balancing move, stealth lacked a certain counter. That is one that had less than 5% of actually breaking stealth. I almost never got hit while in stealth. That frequency increased last night. I welcome the challenge. Every other class has had to deal with highly certain counters to their key mechanics. So this precedent that bothers you so much has been here since release. Thieves aren’t special. You aren’t special. Move on.

Name me another skill with the following criteria
- Cannot be dodged
- Cannot be cleansed/broken
- Completely invalidates an entire traitline.

Maybe I’ve missed something, I’m not perfect. Introduce me to a skill that does that to any other class, and we’ll discuss it.

If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Doggie.3184

Doggie.3184

The main issue about the Sic’em thing is the fact that it just discriminates against a group of people. I find it offensive. Even if it was 100% useless the fact that it exist is just immoral.

That and it just adds to the annoyance of Last Refuge, because it’s a similar situation. Why isn’t that Trait removed yet? It’s been reported a billion times. What’s the point of testing anything if you don’t fix it when it’s broken?

| Fort Aspenwood (NA): Sylvari Daredevil Thief Main: All Classes 80. |
Please Remove/Fix Thief Trait: “Last Refuge.”
“Hard to Catch” is a Horrible and Useless Trait. Fixed 6/23/15. Praise Dwayna.

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Sanduskel.1850

Sanduskel.1850

It doesn’t invalidate a trait line. It requires its intelligent use.

OP’d thief, lol

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Dagraan.2854

Dagraan.2854

so do any of the thieves not do any attacking at all? because if i remember correctly when you spam 1 running behind someone and it finally hits you get 3 to 4 seconds of reveal as well.

why are you so bad that a 4 second reveal from a ranger will kill you. and it can’t even do anything while you’re stealthed.
if you’re so bad at the easiest class in the game then you need to roll a cleric guardian and have nothing but heal skills.

From this point on, anyone who makes it clear they haven’t read anything I’ve said up until this point is just wasting their breath – more so than usual, as hard as that is to believe from the displayed lack of reading comprehension.

if you were any good you wouldn’t be kittening about something you already self inflict on yourself.

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: evilapprentice.6379

evilapprentice.6379

It doesn’t invalidate a trait line. It requires its intelligent use.

Being hit with Sic Em means that any minor trait a thief has in SA is automatically worthless for the duration, because the thief is locked out of stealth. Any major trait worth taking is also automatically useless, because they are also stealth reliant.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Invalidate?s=t

Your “it requires intelligent use” statement is not only a poor argument, it’s also an incorrect one – it’s impossible to take advantage of any SA trait, either intelligently or stupidly, once you’ve been hit with Sic Em.

My initial request still stands – show me another skill that satisfies the criteria I laid out in an earlier post. I know you won’t (because there isn’t one), but that’s where this discussion stands – until you can show me another skill in a similar vein, your counter-argument carries no weight.

If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.

(edited by evilapprentice.6379)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Sanduskel.1850

Sanduskel.1850

Sure. Being hit with knockdown, confusion or dozens of other things have the same effect. Move on. The point is that you now need to use stealth more intelligently.

OP’d thief, lol

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: evilapprentice.6379

evilapprentice.6379

Sure. Being hit with knockdown, confusion or dozens of other things have the same effect. Move on. The point is that you now need to use stealth more intelligently.

-Cannot be cleansed/broken
Both knockdowns and Confusion and the other dozens of skills I’m sure you’re thinking about can be countered by stunbreaks and condition cleanses.

Oh, they can also be dodged. And also, they don’t invalidate an entire trait line. So what you’ve offered meets 0/3 critera. Bravo.

You need to have the barest understanding of what I’m talking about to contribute. This is what I mean when I talk about unrelenting stupidity. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, but you find no shame in shouting it from the rooftops.

If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.

(edited by evilapprentice.6379)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Sanduskel.1850

Sanduskel.1850

You can run, dodge and stealth before the skill is used to avoid it. Try it. You are making a broad claim with blinders on. I see pets malfunction all the the time. If this hadn’t been handled this way, sic em would never work. Maybe you need to comprehend how other classes work.

OP’d thief, lol

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Kaon.7192

Kaon.7192

You can run, dodge and stealth before the skill is used to avoid it. Try it. You are making a broad claim with blinders on. I see pets malfunction all the the time. If this hadn’t been handled this way, sic em would never work. Maybe you need to comprehend how other classes work.

Run – 2000 range away from the Ranger you mean? Even with Thief mobility that is not a small feat and will put important utilities on cooldown and/or use up most of your initiative. All it will accomplish is put Sic Em on a 5 second cooldown.

Dodge – Read the title of the thread

Stealth – So rerolling a perma-Stealth Thief is the only real counter to a skill that is supposed to be a counter to Stealth?

Clearly this skill is ANet game design at it’s finest. /sarcasm

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: evilapprentice.6379

evilapprentice.6379

You can run, dodge and stealth before the skill is used to avoid it. Try it. You are making a broad claim with blinders on. I see pets malfunction all the the time. If this hadn’t been handled this way, sic em would never work. Maybe you need to comprehend how other classes work.

Run – 2000 range away from the Ranger you mean? Even with Thief mobility that is not a small feat and will put important utilities on cooldown and/or use up most of your initiative. All it will accomplish is put Sic Em on a 5 second cooldown.

Dodge – Read the title of the thread

Stealth – So rerolling a perma-Stealth Thief is the only real counter to a skill that is supposed to be a counter to Stealth?

Clearly this skill is ANet game design at it’s finest. /sarcasm

I wouldn’t waste my time anymore Kaon – when asked to provide an example of an undodgeable, uncleansable skill that locked an entire traitline, he offered confusion and stuns. There is literally no reaching him.

If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Kaon.7192

Kaon.7192

so do any of the thieves not do any attacking at all? because if i remember correctly when you spam 1 running behind someone and it finally hits you get 3 to 4 seconds of reveal as well.

why are you so bad that a 4 second reveal from a ranger will kill you. and it can’t even do anything while you’re stealthed.
if you’re so bad at the easiest class in the game then you need to roll a cleric guardian and have nothing but heal skills.

From this point on, anyone who makes it clear they haven’t read anything I’ve said up until this point is just wasting their breath – more so than usual, as hard as that is to believe from the displayed lack of reading comprehension.

if you were any good you wouldn’t be kittening about something you already self inflict on yourself.

Inflicting Revealed on ourselves is a regulation mechanic for Stealth attacks. Analogous to an empty Adrenaline bar preventing Bursts or an empty Life Force bar for DS.

Having Revealed applied for x seconds by an enemy is a hard-counter, comparable to emptying the Adrenaline or Life Force bars for x seconds, effectively disabling the use of either of those mechanics for the duration.

Imagine if the undodgeable, instant-cast, 2000 range Sic Em had either of those effects instead of Revealed. And imagine if ANet has stated that they’re planning to implement other skills with such effects down the pipe.

What does this do for the viability of builds that revolve around these underlying mechanics? This is why reasonable Thieves are up in arms about this change.

(edited by Kaon.7192)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Sanduskel.1850

Sanduskel.1850

So learn to stealth before sic em is applied. Isn’t that what you tell others to do? Dodge before the BS, or swing melee where you think the stealthed thief is?

Again, those of us who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t up in arms about this. I enjoyed my fights last night. Challenging but fun.

OP’d thief, lol

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Kaon.7192

Kaon.7192

So learn to stealth before sic em is applied. Isn’t that what you tell others to do? Dodge before the BS, or swing melee where you think the stealthed thief is?

Again, those of us who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t up in arms about this. I enjoyed my fights last night. Challenging but fun.

It is not possible to LEARN to Stealth before Sic Em is applied because it’s instant cast with absolutely 0 tells, and 0 possible counter play. You can get lucky and Stealth before your enemy decides to randomly use it, but that misplay will only cost him a 5 second cooldown on Sic Em instead of the full cooldown. And if you’re NOT running Perma-Stealth, it’ll be ready to use before you can Stealth again.

Let me reiterate, Sic Em affects Perma-Stealth Thieves the least out of all Thief builds that make use of Stealth due to the lack of targetting opportunities. If you still can’t see a problem with this kind of design, I’ll take evilapprentice’s advice and stop wasting my time.

(edited by Kaon.7192)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Rezzet.3614

Rezzet.3614

you mean just how thiefs had a skill locking out 90% of other classes’s mechanics and trait points? you know like stealth? 90% of the time? trololol

I forgot that stealth completely turned off your brain. It’s impossible to attempt to predict where the thief might be headed on his weaponset, to use AoE’s or auto attacks to attempt to hit him while he’s in stealth.

yup cuz Everyone has greatswords that cleave as well as meteor showers and marks and wells it s not like some use rifles bows longbows pistols wich shoot straight or to the ground if they have no active target . /sarcasm

plus we all know how it goes once thief stealths follow up is an obvious shadowstep followed with stun and the killing blow .

with hardly any counter for some because stealth remains even if thief spams his attacks on a Blocking player so yes 90% mechanics gone to waste by this one stealth mechanic

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Asudementio.8526

Asudementio.8526

So learn to stealth before sic em is applied. Isn’t that what you tell others to do? Dodge before the BS, or swing melee where you think the stealthed thief is?

Again, those of us who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t up in arms about this. I enjoyed my fights last night. Challenging but fun.

It is not possible to LEARN to Stealth before Sic Em is applied because it’s instant cast with absolutely 0 tells, and 0 possible counter play. You can get lucky and Stealth before your enemy decides to randomly use it, but that misplay will only cost him a 5 second cooldown on Sic Em instead of the full cooldown. And if you’re NOT running Perma-Stealth, it’ll be ready to use before you can Stealth again.

Let me reiterate, Sic Em affects Perma-Stealth Thieves the least out of all Thief builds that make use of Stealth due to the lack of targetting opportunities. If you still can’t see a problem with this kind of design, I’ll take evilapprentice’s advice and stop wasting my time.

Don’t waste breath on him, he is willfully ignorant.

I have two principle concerns with regards to this change.

1) the effect it has on my ability to maintain and clear conditions as i am leading zerg sized forces

2) the effect it will have on my ability to heal in clutch circumstances where i would normally be able to disengage, get behind my opponent, and get back in the fight

This change on paper has a chilling effect on both which i think will lessen my capacity to lead in non-havoc groups as well as diminish my ability to remain in a contestable zone fighting enemies with larger sustain than i and will force me to have to actually run ooc to make any meaningful headway into small group fights; which makes me less of an asset to my group. To this end i think that this effect will force me to have to drop my stealth builds in favor of evade builds which is not necessarily a positive change but a stylistic change.

Leader of [Suh]
My moves are fresh, like my groceries.
#TeamEvonforever

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Okaishi.8320

Okaishi.8320

I’d agree perma stealth is probably the least bothered by the new Sic’ Em. I imagine it being far more annoying for D/D thieves, a spec that already has plenty of counterplay to it providing the enemy player is capable (evade/block/blind/cc the thief as he tries to c&d) and as such this change is stupid. D/D doesn’t need nerfing.

As I posted before, perma stealth should be nerfed accordingly, but besides that they need to stop harming thieves. Stealth is already quite useless in spvp and tpvp, it’s only good for roaming in WvW (and roamers have very little impact on WvW score), and in zerg warfare thief is far inferior to all the light and heavy armor professions. And yet those professions can handle themselves well in a 1v1 if the player is good and are getting far more love than the thief class. It would be great if a ‘balance’ patch would actually bring some meaningful changes to the game.

Member of TUP on Gandara

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: UrMom.4205

UrMom.4205

I like how our stealth heal has a 1 second cast time, and sic em is instant. Whats the point of even having stealth on that heal now lol? Cast heal, get sic em’dâ„¢

Team Raven [TR](Dead)
Wu Táng Financial [Táng] – YB

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Doomdesire.9365

Doomdesire.9365

Pretty ridiculous earlier today I had 12seconds of revealed from multiple rangers spamming this crap. Needless to say, melted in less than a second.

You can’t even target against D/P users, why add it? It hurts the good builds who rarely rely on stealth. This is a mistake anet. You should have given a passive pet signet that lets pets attack thieves in stealth, not any revealed skill.

I think many thieves realize that ranger is a weak class, but you shouldn’t nerf another class as a “buff” to rangers. You should buff rangers and leave the other classes alone. All this is doing is fixing one problem by adding another.

(edited by Doomdesire.9365)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

Pretty ridiculous earlier today I had 12seconds of revealed from multiple rangers spamming this crap. Needless to say, melted in less than a second.

You can’t even target against D/P users, why add it? It hurts the good builds who rarely rely on stealth. This is a mistake anet. You should have given a passive pet signet that lets pets attack thieves in stealth, not any revealed skill.

I think many thieves realize that ranger is a weak class, but you shouldn’t nerf another class as a “buff” to rangers. You should buff rangers and leave the other classes alone. All this is doing is fixing one problem by adding another.

As a ranger , it’s good to see thief tears in regards to ranger , it only took 1 year to accomplish.

On a side note, the reveal doesn’t stack so if you actually let them chain Sic em on you and anticipated it, then I’m sorry to say this, but you’re really bad and need to learn anticipation on the game. The issue really doesn’t really apply to the rangers themselves, you need to know they can do that now and anticipate it and play smart. Finally, you have to play smart against a ranger now, shocking , I know.

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

Pretty ridiculous earlier today I had 12seconds of revealed from multiple rangers spamming this crap. Needless to say, melted in less than a second.

You can’t even target against D/P users, why add it? It hurts the good builds who rarely rely on stealth. This is a mistake anet. You should have given a passive pet signet that lets pets attack thieves in stealth, not any revealed skill.

I think many thieves realize that ranger is a weak class, but you shouldn’t nerf another class as a “buff” to rangers. You should buff rangers and leave the other classes alone. All this is doing is fixing one problem by adding another.

As a ranger , it’s good to see thief tears in regards to ranger , it only took 1 year to accomplish.

On a side note, the reveal doesn’t stack so if you actually let them chain Sic em on you and anticipated it, then I’m sorry to say this, but you’re really bad and need to learn anticipation on the game. The issue really doesn’t really apply to the rangers themselves, you need to know they can do that now and anticipate it and play smart. Finally, you have to play smart against a ranger now, shocking , I know.

How would he have let them not chain it? Dodging? Stealthing?

Blank Players [BDL]-Anvil Rock
Maugen Rawr- Thief/Ele
Rebalance Ideas for Thief

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: rpfohr.7048

rpfohr.7048

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

I repeat again. Stealth is not our class mechanic initiative is as well as steal. Thief just happens to have lots of stealth access the class mechanic is located in the last trait line check it out for yourself!!

Also thief is my second favorite class. So I love them and play one.
I hate complaining and incomplete thoughts
Think about why it was given to ranger and you will realize that any future skill that would get this would have a more apparent weakness

Lastly once again killing the pet negates the skill. Weakness found now go use it

(edited by rpfohr.7048)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Imagi.4561

Imagi.4561

Pretty ridiculous earlier today I had 12seconds of revealed from multiple rangers spamming this crap. Needless to say, melted in less than a second.

You can’t even target against D/P users, why add it? It hurts the good builds who rarely rely on stealth. This is a mistake anet. You should have given a passive pet signet that lets pets attack thieves in stealth, not any revealed skill.

I think many thieves realize that ranger is a weak class, but you shouldn’t nerf another class as a “buff” to rangers. You should buff rangers and leave the other classes alone. All this is doing is fixing one problem by adding another.

I wasn’t aware that Revealed could stack.

Attachments:

#ELEtism
By Ogden’s hammer, what savings!

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

Pretty ridiculous earlier today I had 12seconds of revealed from multiple rangers spamming this crap. Needless to say, melted in less than a second.

You can’t even target against D/P users, why add it? It hurts the good builds who rarely rely on stealth. This is a mistake anet. You should have given a passive pet signet that lets pets attack thieves in stealth, not any revealed skill.

I think many thieves realize that ranger is a weak class, but you shouldn’t nerf another class as a “buff” to rangers. You should buff rangers and leave the other classes alone. All this is doing is fixing one problem by adding another.

As a ranger , it’s good to see thief tears in regards to ranger , it only took 1 year to accomplish.

On a side note, the reveal doesn’t stack so if you actually let them chain Sic em on you and anticipated it, then I’m sorry to say this, but you’re really bad and need to learn anticipation on the game. The issue really doesn’t really apply to the rangers themselves, you need to know they can do that now and anticipate it and play smart. Finally, you have to play smart against a ranger now, shocking , I know.

How would he have let them not chain it? Dodging? Stealthing?

BP after 1st reveal wears off before the 2nd ranger uses sic em and keep distance and bring shortbow to avoid dmg and escape if necessary.

Also, the reveal from sic em DOESNT stack , tried and tested. The first reveal needs to actually wear off or the new reveal application simply doesn’t work and it’s wasted. Also, the same applies to a thief that has revealed himself, if you have revealed yourself after an attack , if that ranger applies sic em on you in that reveal timeframe, it doesn’t work either.

To all the thieves, how’s it feel now to have to anticipate a ranger utility now?

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

I repeat again. Stealth is not our class mechanic initiative is as well as steal. Thief just happens to have lots of stealth access

Also thief is my second favorite class. So I love them and play one.
I hate complaining and incomplete thoughts
Think about why it was given to ranger and you will realize that any future skill that would get this would have a more apparent weakness

Lastly once again killing the pet negates the skill. Weakness found now go use it

Nah, they want the pet alive so they can abuse CND’s on a minion they know can’t dodge.

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

I repeat again. Stealth is not our class mechanic initiative is as well as steal. Thief just happens to have lots of stealth access

Also thief is my second favorite class. So I love them and play one.
I hate complaining and incomplete thoughts
Think about why it was given to ranger and you will realize that any future skill that would get this would have a more apparent weakness

Lastly once again killing the pet negates the skill. Weakness found now go use it

Again, just to reiterate, stealth attacks are a mechanic. While other classes may have access to stealth and limited stealth based traits, they do not have access to stealth attacks. So while stealth may or may not be a core mechanic, we definitely have core mechanics based on stealth.

Blank Players [BDL]-Anvil Rock
Maugen Rawr- Thief/Ele
Rebalance Ideas for Thief

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

I repeat again. Stealth is not our class mechanic initiative is as well as steal. Thief just happens to have lots of stealth access

Also thief is my second favorite class. So I love them and play one.
I hate complaining and incomplete thoughts
Think about why it was given to ranger and you will realize that any future skill that would get this would have a more apparent weakness

Lastly once again killing the pet negates the skill. Weakness found now go use it

Again, just to reiterate, stealth attacks are a mechanic. While other classes may have access to stealth and limited stealth based traits, they do not have access to stealth attacks. So while stealth may or may not be a core mechanic, we definitely have core mechanics based on stealth.

Next time don’t bring dagger or pistol mainhand to fight a ranger, it may be less useful now. Now you may have to use s/d instead, it’s kind of cool because instead of spamming 5->2 or 5 on our pet you know can’t dodge you basically just hit 3 now, dodge roll cancel , hit 3 again and you get the option to steal a boon as well if you want to and the plus is with s/d you still get the option manipulate that bad pet ai by CNDing that pet , that once again, you know can’t dodge! It’s a perk and you don’t have to hit as many buttons!

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

(edited by Ryan.8367)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Asudementio.8526

Asudementio.8526

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

I repeat again. Stealth is not our class mechanic initiative is as well as steal. Thief just happens to have lots of stealth access

Also thief is my second favorite class. So I love them and play one.
I hate complaining and incomplete thoughts
Think about why it was given to ranger and you will realize that any future skill that would get this would have a more apparent weakness

Lastly once again killing the pet negates the skill. Weakness found now go use it

Nah, they want the pet alive so they can abuse CND’s on a minion they know can’t dodge.

When your precious ranger is nerfed even further than it is i will take solace in the fact that i am a good enough person not to go to the ranger forums and troll.

Leader of [Suh]
My moves are fresh, like my groceries.
#TeamEvonforever

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

I repeat again. Stealth is not our class mechanic initiative is as well as steal. Thief just happens to have lots of stealth access

Also thief is my second favorite class. So I love them and play one.
I hate complaining and incomplete thoughts
Think about why it was given to ranger and you will realize that any future skill that would get this would have a more apparent weakness

Lastly once again killing the pet negates the skill. Weakness found now go use it

Again, just to reiterate, stealth attacks are a mechanic. While other classes may have access to stealth and limited stealth based traits, they do not have access to stealth attacks. So while stealth may or may not be a core mechanic, we definitely have core mechanics based on stealth.

Next time don’t bring dagger or pistol mainhand to fight a ranger, it may be less useful now. Now you may have to use s/d instead, it’s kind of cool because instead of spamming 5->2 or 5 on our pet you know can’t dodge you basically just hit 3 now, dodge roll cancel , hit 3 again and you get the option to steal a boon as well if you want to! It’s a perk and you don’t have to hit as many buttons!

How can you have so little understanding of what you’re talking about yet ensure, so completely, that everyone knows it? Didn’t your parents teach you shame?

This thread is an excellent example of some of the downright most ignorant players I’ve ever seen. The slapdash, mechanically inaccurate, emotion based arguments contained would be worthy of a stand up comedy tour, is Anet didn’t for some godawful reason take you waste of resources seriously.

Was a response to him saying that thieves contained a unique stealth mechanic (when 4 classes get it, and half of them have traits pertaining to stealth play, that includes rangers in the marksmanship tree) mainly because of stealth attacks. I told him not to run the 2 weapons with one skill on them contribute to stealth attacks against a ranger. That’s all.

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Sanduskel.1850

Sanduskel.1850

So learn to stealth before sic em is applied. Isn’t that what you tell others to do? Dodge before the BS, or swing melee where you think the stealthed thief is?

Again, those of us who don’t rely on perma stealth aren’t up in arms about this. I enjoyed my fights last night. Challenging but fun.

It is not possible to LEARN to Stealth before Sic Em is applied because it’s instant cast with absolutely 0 tells, and 0 possible counter play. You can get lucky and Stealth before your enemy decides to randomly use it, but that misplay will only cost him a 5 second cooldown on Sic Em instead of the full cooldown. And if you’re NOT running Perma-Stealth, it’ll be ready to use before you can Stealth again.

Let me reiterate, Sic Em affects Perma-Stealth Thieves the least out of all Thief builds that make use of Stealth due to the lack of targetting opportunities. If you still can’t see a problem with this kind of design, I’ll take evilapprentice’s advice and stop wasting my time.

As a thief, it’s impossible for my victims to learn how to avoid my attacks from stealth either. This isn’t any different. Again, learn to thrive with less stealth. Other thieves do it, you can too!

OP’d thief, lol

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

I repeat again. Stealth is not our class mechanic initiative is as well as steal. Thief just happens to have lots of stealth access

Also thief is my second favorite class. So I love them and play one.
I hate complaining and incomplete thoughts
Think about why it was given to ranger and you will realize that any future skill that would get this would have a more apparent weakness

Lastly once again killing the pet negates the skill. Weakness found now go use it

Nah, they want the pet alive so they can abuse CND’s on a minion they know can’t dodge.

When your precious ranger is nerfed even further than it is i will take solace in the fact that i am a good enough person not to go to the ranger forums and troll.

We’ve been nerfed to oblivion and have gotten trolls before, it’ll be nothing new. We have one , maybe 2 builds that actually work in the game in terms of viable combat so your crying will get no sympathy from me or any other ranger for that matter.

Also, I main ranger but only because it was my 1st character I made – he’s hardly precious , but it has been fun trolling thieves with Sic Em. I actually like my thief, mesmer more. I have an elementalist as well that is quite fun.

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

(edited by Ryan.8367)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: rpfohr.7048

rpfohr.7048

I am sorry Ryan and I are right
The definition of a unique class mechanic Is that no class except yours has access to it
Hunters shot is a longbow 3 attack skill yhat grants ranger 3 secs of stealth
Dont blow your mind up though maug.
my point stands

You should know that I’m like this on all forums including ranger
Especially ranger because the doom and gloom there often leads to tons of inaccurate statements

(edited by rpfohr.7048)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

I am sorry Ryan and I are right
The definition of a unique class mechanic Is that no class except yours has access to it

Quick! Name another class with stealth attacks!

Dear lord, how do you remember to breath?

Rangers get a longbow attack that grants us stealth, and traits that also work off of stealth. If we get sic em’d before we do that attack, it’s rendered useless. Shrug.

Also, like it’s been said before , don’t rely on stealth so much and you may not be able to bring dagger/pistol mainhand to a ranger fight and if you do, know that the 1 attack can be rendered useless every 40 seconds and that’s if it’s spammed. Best suggestions I could give to ya really – you have to improvise now against rangers, because Sic Em is probably going no where. Now adapt, like many good thieves have told you already from all your pointless rants from other threads.

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Xsorus.2507

Xsorus.2507

Rofl, there is a counter to this ability, Using one of your many teleports to run away while Reveal is up.

I know I know, I have a Thief…I know the joy of being able to just pop one of the many Stealth’s we have over and over and just heal back up in stealth while dropping Conditions, Now you may have to actually think when playing the class.

Its a Huge step, going from a non thinking class to one that actually requires a bit of thought…but you’ll get there.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos?view=0
Natures Ninja and Pain Inverter – Ranger PvP movies
http://www.twitch.tv/xsorovos

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

I am sorry Ryan and I are right
The definition of a unique class mechanic Is that no class except yours has access to it

Quick! Name another class with stealth attacks!

Dear lord, how do you remember to breath?

Rangers get a longbow attack that grants us stealth, and traits that also work off of stealth. If we get sic em’d before we do that attack, it’s rendered useless. Shrug.

A “Stealth attack” is a special attack that can only be launched from stealth. It’s an extremely basic definition of an extremely basic concept, and you still managed to mess it up.

I should thank you though – a correct argument isn’t nearly as helpful in exposing how silly something is as the unrestrained enthusiasm of the terminally ignorant.

So, thank you for proving my point so completely and irrevocably.

You argument is that sic em doesn’t allow you to get the benefit of this attack. I provided an example of an attack that gets negated by sic em and has the exact same effect the only difference is they’re opposite from each other , one puts you into stealth, one doesn’t allow you to go stealth to get the attack – virtually the same thing, I’m sorry you fail to see it.

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

Rofl, there is a counter to this ability, Using one of your many teleports to run away while Reveal is up.

I know I know, I have a Thief…I know the joy of being able to just pop one of the many Stealth’s we have over and over and just heal back up in stealth while dropping Conditions, Now you may have to actually think when playing the class.

Its a Huge step, going from a non thinking class to one that actually requires a bit of thought…but you’ll get there.

Pretty much this

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: rpfohr.7048

rpfohr.7048

I appologize I thought you were arguing that stealth and attacks that grant stealth are a unique class mechanic. Stealth attacks are unique to thief and I admit my fault and the soundess of what you said

Regardless the op was concerned about how sickem had no weakness because it is not block able. Just to reiterate kill the pet to nullify skill. The skill has an exploitable weakness in this regard and can be countered. Especially by thiefs who can deal single target dps so fast

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Imagi.4561

Imagi.4561

Honestly, the issue isn’t with the skill, it’s the premise for this change—as several people have stated. I don’t even use a stealth-based build, and I think it was a bad design decision.

Mainly, I feel that Rangers getting a skill that applies an instant, unavoidable Revealed is the first step to all classes having some form of instant Reveal, making stealth useless as a survival mechanic in PvP. And if it spreads out to PvE via mob/NPC skills, then stealth will be significantly less viable there, as well.

This in and of itself is fine, if Thieves are compensated in some other fashion. Given the way that balancing has been over the past year, I’m afraid that stealth will be removed and Thieves won’t receive anything to replace it.

#ELEtism
By Ogden’s hammer, what savings!

(edited by Imagi.4561)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

I repeat again. Stealth is not our class mechanic initiative is as well as steal. Thief just happens to have lots of stealth access

Also thief is my second favorite class. So I love them and play one.
I hate complaining and incomplete thoughts
Think about why it was given to ranger and you will realize that any future skill that would get this would have a more apparent weakness

Lastly once again killing the pet negates the skill. Weakness found now go use it

Again, just to reiterate, stealth attacks are a mechanic. While other classes may have access to stealth and limited stealth based traits, they do not have access to stealth attacks. So while stealth may or may not be a core mechanic, we definitely have core mechanics based on stealth.

Next time don’t bring dagger or pistol mainhand to fight a ranger, it may be less useful now. Now you may have to use s/d instead, it’s kind of cool because instead of spamming 5->2 or 5 on our pet you know can’t dodge you basically just hit 3 now, dodge roll cancel , hit 3 again and you get the option to steal a boon as well if you want to and the plus is with s/d you still get the option manipulate that bad pet ai by CNDing that pet , that once again, you know can’t dodge! It’s a perk and you don’t have to hit as many buttons!

Actually, before this patch my build revolved around using S/D and using every skill on the bar, not just evade spamming (you know, our full kitten nal (really filters?) to stay effective against people who knew how to press a dodge button during LS). But rangers can put up boons faster than I can strip them with that now though so the better option has become trying to burst one before they can react. For now I’ve gone back to a semi-burst D/D build as taking 1 boon for 5 initiative is subpar which is why it was increased to 2 because of the boon bunker meta that existed before the change.

As for your suggestion of using BPS then using heartseeker after it wears off….the stealth is applied at the end of that combo, meaning that the ranger will still have 3/4 of a second to use an instant cast ability. I haven’t tried testing it but even if it doesn’t stack does the new revealed not replace the old one meaning you could overlap them?

Blank Players [BDL]-Anvil Rock
Maugen Rawr- Thief/Ele
Rebalance Ideas for Thief

(edited by Maugetarr.6823)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

I repeat again. Stealth is not our class mechanic initiative is as well as steal. Thief just happens to have lots of stealth access

Also thief is my second favorite class. So I love them and play one.
I hate complaining and incomplete thoughts
Think about why it was given to ranger and you will realize that any future skill that would get this would have a more apparent weakness

Lastly once again killing the pet negates the skill. Weakness found now go use it

Again, just to reiterate, stealth attacks are a mechanic. While other classes may have access to stealth and limited stealth based traits, they do not have access to stealth attacks. So while stealth may or may not be a core mechanic, we definitely have core mechanics based on stealth.

Next time don’t bring dagger or pistol mainhand to fight a ranger, it may be less useful now. Now you may have to use s/d instead, it’s kind of cool because instead of spamming 5->2 or 5 on our pet you know can’t dodge you basically just hit 3 now, dodge roll cancel , hit 3 again and you get the option to steal a boon as well if you want to and the plus is with s/d you still get the option manipulate that bad pet ai by CNDing that pet , that once again, you know can’t dodge! It’s a perk and you don’t have to hit as many buttons!

Actually, before this patch my build revolved around using S/D and using every skill on the bar, not just evade spamming (you know, our full kitten n a l (really filters?) to stay effective against people who knew how to press a dodge button during LS). But rangers can put up boons faster than I can strip them with that now though so the better option has become trying to burst one before they can react. For now I’ve gone back to a semi-burst D/D build as taking 1 boon for 5 initiative is subpar which is why it was increased to 2 because of the boon bunker meta that existed before the change.

As for your suggestion of using BPS then using heartseeker after it wears off….the stealth is applied at the end of that combo, meaning that the ranger will still have 3/4 of a second to use an instant cast ability. I haven’t tried testing it but even if it doesn’t stack does the new revealed not replace the old one meaning you could overlap them?

No I said to use BP , blinding powder. And no, the reveal doesn’t overlap if it casted. If you get revealed from sic em casted on you and somebody else does it say, 2 seconds in, it has no effect at all and is wasted and the original reveal stays in place. It has to wear off completely before another sic em reveal can be used. The same applies if you apply reveal yourself once attacking out of stealth, sic em can’t be used on you within that reveal time, they have to wait until that wears off before applying it to you.

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

(edited by Ryan.8367)

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Ryan.8367

Ryan.8367

Honestly, the issue isn’t with the skill, it’s the premise for this change—as several people have stated. I don’t even use a stealth-based build, and I think it was a bad design decision.

Mainly, I feel that Rangers getting a skill that applies an instant, unavoidable Revealed is the first step to all classes having some form of instant Reveal, making stealth useless as a survival mechanic in PvP. And if it spreads out to PvE via mob/NPC skills, then stealth will be significantly less viable there, as well.

This in and of itself is fine, if Thieves are compensated in some other fashion. Given the way that balancing has been over the past year, I’m afraid that stealth will be removed and Thieves won’t receive anything to replace it.

They’ve already said, when implementing sic em to rangers that rangers will be the only class to get this debuff. I don’t think they’ll extend , if they extend to more classes then I’m sure thieves will be compensated for it. Sic em was given to rangers as a group utility, it’s to keep thieves from picking off people in group combat , it effectively renders them useless in this fashion for 4 seconds then they can get back into the group play once the 4 seconds is up.

Tanbin 80 Ranger
Maguuma

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Imagi.4561

Imagi.4561

Honestly, the issue isn’t with the skill, it’s the premise for this change—as several people have stated. I don’t even use a stealth-based build, and I think it was a bad design decision.

Mainly, I feel that Rangers getting a skill that applies an instant, unavoidable Revealed is the first step to all classes having some form of instant Reveal, making stealth useless as a survival mechanic in PvP. And if it spreads out to PvE via mob/NPC skills, then stealth will be significantly less viable there, as well.

This in and of itself is fine, if Thieves are compensated in some other fashion. Given the way that balancing has been over the past year, I’m afraid that stealth will be removed and Thieves won’t receive anything to replace it.

They’ve already said, when implementing sic em to rangers that rangers will be the only class to get this debuff. I don’t think they’ll extend , if they extend to more classes then I’m sure thieves will be compensated for it. Sic em was given to rangers as a group utility, it’s to keep thieves from picking off people in group combat , it effectively renders them useless in this fashion for 4 seconds then they can get back into the group play once the 4 seconds is up.

I was under the impression that “Sic ’Em!” was much more useful in a 1v1 scenario.

#ELEtism
By Ogden’s hammer, what savings!

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: vincecontix.1264

vincecontix.1264

lol 4 sec revealed on 40 s cool down in the hands of a weak class. If you can’t learn to deal with it, you have some serious l2p issues.

They’re just crying because their “Get out of jail free” card was countered. As a ranger main (and loving my new 80 thief to become 2nd main) I have a hard time killing a thief in WvW. It is NOT because they kill me, It’s because when they are losing, they stealth and run for their mommies. I asked my friend who mains a thief, “how can I kill a thief?”, his reply… “If he’s a stealth build, you never can.”

Will I be using Sic’em in WvW when I solo roam? Nah. It’s only useful in 1vs1 situations and it’s hardly 1vs1 in WvW.

Totally wrong in 1v1 sic’em wont be an issue. Its when you are doing 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, etc very easy to call target on thief and take him out. Ever been hit by condi necro burst? well even for the tankiest of thiefs you can go from full to almost zero in a couple of seconds, stealth heavily traited in the SA trait line is generally what will let you live by the skin of teeth.

Its in group play sic’em is really going to shine. These days with everyone running tanky builds with high regen its already easier to kill a thief or mesmer than it is to kill a tanky War, Guard, Necro, engi, Ele. Sic’em at the very lest should be avoidable if you dodge at the right time. The really stupid thing is that dp perma stealth thiefs aren’t going to be that badly affected compared to other thief builds.

Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: Stx.4857

Stx.4857

I think making any skill in the game un-dodgable is bad design, but that doesn’t change the fact that this new stealth counter wont really make a difference.

Who cares. /shrug

2x 80 Necro, 80 Ranger, 80 Thief

Sic em cannot be dodged

in Thief

Posted by: vincecontix.1264

vincecontix.1264

I think making any skill in the game un-dodgable is bad design, but that doesn’t change the fact that this new stealth counter wont really make a difference.

Who cares. /shrug

1v1 and maybe 2v2 yea no really difference but more than that the sic’em is very effective.

Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir