Guild Wars 2

Please improve the Signet of Malice’s Heal and add a global cool-down.

Passive: Heals when you attack. (Cooldown: 1s)
Active: Gain health.
Healing: 463 + (0.18 * Healing Power)
Healing: 3,275

Pls no global cooldown. That would probably ruin it. I usually use it when im about to run into a huge mob and pop Dagger Storm. The main point of this skill is that thieves attack fast, so even though the heal is low, you are getting alot of it from the quick attack speed. I would like the Active heal to be boosted slightly though.

So it makes Signet of Malice stop working for builds with high hit-volume in exchange for increased healing on slow-hitting builds.

I have no idea why you would do this.

Daecollo.9578:

Please improve the Signet of Malice’s Heal and add a global cool-down.

Passive: Heals when you attack. (Cooldown: 1s)
Active: Gain health.
Healing: 463 + (0.18 * Healing Power)
Healing: 3,275

Are you kiddin? O.o

Problem is, even high hit rate attacks have several weaknesses, and the thing is, HHR attacks like Pistol Whip would heal about the same, because you would still get 2 procs from the attacks, same with Unload.

So its kind of a nerf, except not really because its healing for about the same.

Daecollo.9578:

Problem is, even high hit rate attacks have several weaknesses, and the thing is, HHR attacks like Pistol Whip would heal about the same, because you would still get 2 procs from the attacks, same with Unload.

So its kind of a nerf, except not really because its healing for about the same.

Then why do it at all? It just makes the skill unnecessarily confusing / restricted and destroys the ‘hit as quickly and frequently as possible’ goal.

Softspoken.2410:

Daecollo.9578:

Problem is, even high hit rate attacks have several weaknesses, and the thing is, HHR attacks like Pistol Whip would heal about the same, because you would still get 2 procs from the attacks, same with Unload.

So its kind of a nerf, except not really because its healing for about the same.

Then why do it at all? It just makes the skill unnecessarily confusing / restricted and destroys the ‘hit as quickly and frequently as possible’ goal.

How is it confusing or restrictive?
It makes all things pretty much viable instead of limiting it to one or two weapon skills.

Punishing you for using other buttons besides ’3-on-two-weapon-combo-skills" and relying on perfect situations in perfect worlds where people stand still is a bad mechanic anyways.

This way, other skills are opened up besides ‘3-on-two-weapon-combo-skills’ and ‘3’ heals for a little less, but almost about the same.

Unload and pistol whip are ideal applicants for the skill, yes. As is the first attack of the dagger auto-chain, the shortbow with its bouncing auto and cluster bomb attacking multiple targets multiple times, and death blossom across multiple enemies. Not to mention the ever-popular caltrops and the anti-zerg healing provided in dagger storm.

I realize that any list I give is going to be both incomplete and still show that the skill shines in limited zones but that is the point. The healing skill has areas that it is strong, and areas that it is weak. It forces a choice, and allows the player to create and use organic combinations that simply don’t exist by default.

By taking signet of malice, a player realizes that for their healing, they need to attack as frequently as possible, or have bursts of high-hit volume that are then interrupted by using the signet for the shot of healing and surrendering the passive. It creates game play styles and alternate priorities in combat.

By homogenizing the skill such that it is procced at mostly the same rate no matter what weapon or battle techniques you use, that depth of play is removed completely.

I don’t even really care about the balance of power in the skill: the healing bases and ratios can always be tweaked. But the suggested change, specifically the cooldown, removes that gameplay dynamic.

Malices strength is in hit volume. It’s meh on an individual level, however the thing is unlike Withdraw and HIS, it gets stronger the more foes you hit.
Meaning Pistol whip goes from 900, to 1700, to 2500 health per hit assuming the 100 heal per hit. Healing 300 health per sword swing. In contrast against two foes even balled up, Unload only heals 800. Trick shot hitting 300 per health from range (no ini involved) is also very significant. Vs Vital shots 1.
The usage with caltrops and Dagger storm is well known.

But it should be rather clear at this time, Signet of Malice, is a heal for groups.
It really shouldn’t be holding it’s own in a 1v1 sense, Unless you’re traiting it to give you effects in line with your build/game plan. It’s strength is being the best Heal out of the three in situations where you’re hitting more than one person at a time.

In that respect it is plenty strong already. A mixture of Caltrops + PW for instance, will heal someone plenty if 3 enemies are hit. In exchange for 1v1 fashion you can trait it to give you 5s of might, 2 ini on use, and 12s RC which will give it marginally better performance when you need a burst heal.

ensoriki.5789:

Malices strength is in hit volume. It’s meh on an individual level, however the thing is unlike Withdraw and HIS, it gets stronger the more foes you hit.
Meaning Pistol whip goes from 900, to 1700, to 2500 health per hit assuming the 100 heal per hit. Healing 300 health per sword swing. In contrast against two foes even balled up, Unload only heals 800. Trick shot hitting 300 per health from range (no ini involved) is also very significant. Vs Vital shots 1.
The usage with caltrops and Dagger storm is well known.

But it should be rather clear at this time, Signet of Malice, is a heal for groups.
It really shouldn’t be holding it’s own in a 1v1 sense, Unless you’re traiting it to give you effects in line with your build/game plan. It’s strength is being the best Heal out of the three in situations where you’re hitting more than one person at a time.

In that respect it is plenty strong already. A mixture of Caltrops + PW for instance, will heal someone plenty if 3 enemies are hit. In exchange for 1v1 fashion you can trait it to give you 5s of might, 2 ini on use, and 12s RC which will give it marginally better performance when you need a burst heal.

It relies way too much on RNG and how stupid your opponent is, and they won’t improve the heal amount without improving how much it heals for or putting a GCD on it.

Yes, if you have the perfect perfect world where everyone stands still and your not dieing it can heal for a lot. In that perfect world however only exists a few places and most of them are just farming areas for content you don’t even need it for.

In PVP, such situations are rare if not impossible to find. In PvE if your fighting a boss you would still only benefit from one target.

Next I think our skills damage should be increased but have cooldowns on them instead of using initiative.

No this is just bad, its bad enough that the on crit/hit food was somewhat nerfed for thieves and that most on hit things aren’t as effective on us as they really could/should be.

The signet is fine how it is, it works just how its supposed to, if you want bigger on use heals you use the big on use heals, if you want constant healing while you attack rapidly or small burst healing while keeping a burst of healing ready you use signet.

And theres no RNG about it, you heal for every hit you land, landing hits is not a matter of RNG

Dasorine.1964:

Next I think our skills damage should be increased but have cooldowns on them instead of using initiative.

No this is just bad, its bad enough that the on crit/hit food was somewhat nerfed for thieves and that most on hit things aren’t as effective on us as they really could/should be.

The signet is fine how it is, it works just how its supposed to, if you want bigger on use heals you use the big on use heals, if you want constant healing while you attack rapidly or small burst healing while keeping a burst of healing ready you use signet.

And theres no RNG about it, you heal for every hit you land, landing hits is not a matter of RNG

The RNG is relying on your opponents stupidity for healing. Thats the RNG. If you fight anyone smart, SoM becomes immediately worthless.

but thats not a random number generated thing, there is no random number generation determining whether you manage to hit your enemy or not, if your failing to get a tick of healing from signet of malice then your failing to hit your enemy.

That is not because of a random number, its because you did something wrong and failed to hit your target.

If you DONT like healing off your target (which putting a cooldown on wouldn’t stop you missing heals if your missing hits anyway) you use THE OTHER HEALS.

Daecollo.9578:

ensoriki.5789:

Malices strength is in hit volume. It’s meh on an individual level, however the thing is unlike Withdraw and HIS, it gets stronger the more foes you hit.
Meaning Pistol whip goes from 900, to 1700, to 2500 health per hit assuming the 100 heal per hit. Healing 300 health per sword swing. In contrast against two foes even balled up, Unload only heals 800. Trick shot hitting 300 per health from range (no ini involved) is also very significant. Vs Vital shots 1.
The usage with caltrops and Dagger storm is well known.

But it should be rather clear at this time, Signet of Malice, is a heal for groups.
It really shouldn’t be holding it’s own in a 1v1 sense, Unless you’re traiting it to give you effects in line with your build/game plan. It’s strength is being the best Heal out of the three in situations where you’re hitting more than one person at a time.

In that respect it is plenty strong already. A mixture of Caltrops + PW for instance, will heal someone plenty if 3 enemies are hit. In exchange for 1v1 fashion you can trait it to give you 5s of might, 2 ini on use, and 12s RC which will give it marginally better performance when you need a burst heal. If you hit 3 enemies with Pistol whip, you’ll of hit 25 times out of that 56. Another PW is 50, 6 more hits for 56.
You can literally atm, do that under Haste in about 3/4s. In 3/4’s Malice can outperform HiS (30s rc) in raw healing, and still be active to do even more.
Without haste that will take you what, 10s? To punk out HiS? With 20 more seconds in your favor?

It relies way too much on RNG and how stupid your opponent is, and they won’t improve the heal amount without improving how much it heals for or putting a GCD on it.

Yes, if you have the perfect perfect world where everyone stands still and your not dieing it can heal for a lot. In that perfect world however only exists a few places and most of them are just farming areas for content you don’t even need it for.

In PVP, such situations are rare if not impossible to find. In PvE if your fighting a boss you would still only benefit from one target.

There is no RNG involved.
You hit, you heal. You hit two people, you heal twice. Everything is fixed and dependant on you’re own observation skills and positioning.
There is zero aspect of RNG involved in the efficiency of Malice unless you are using Ricochet for some unknown unholy reason.

It’s not about perfect world. I run HiS and rarely, Withdraw. It is incredibly common to cleave 2 or even three enemies with the auto attack or pistol whip. Not unusual at all to hit two people with inf strike. A WvW Zerg? Childs play. What you seem to forget is that it’s not just players as well. Hitting a ranger and their pet simultaneously? Extremely common. Hitting multiple illusions and/or Mesmer? Common. Engineer’s dropping supply kit, and you hit the turret, and the engi? Common.

It is not uncommon in any way to hit more than two people, especially in pvp where the main objective is to confine yourself to a circle which is a prime target for multi-hit skills to begin with.

WvW? Ever taken a supply base and you can’t hit two or three people? Especially if it’s being defended? There are tons of bodies going around, and SoM scales up instead of being static.

Fighting Jormag’s claw? Why take Withdraw, when there is so much to Trick shot, PW, and Daggerstorm? Bleed,burning and poison aren’t present, and the stealth doesn’t help vs a roar. You’re pretty much better of when fighting adds with Malice.
Same with Temple of Grenth.

There’s a reason those lol bleed thieves try to use Malice, Caltrops procs are quite efficient for what they are trying to do.

It’s nothing about “perfect world” it’s just reality, that Malice has it’s uses that it does well.

The thing with Malice to think about. If you get 56 hits in, you beat out HiS in raw healing basically, not counting for the signet boost that if used every 30s after 56, make’s the advantage fairly clear. If you’re goal is to do no more than 10-20 hits (burst) than Malice serves little purpose unless you trait it. In which case Malice can temp boost power and regenerate more Ini than any of the other heals ( 2-6 every 13s).
In the case you hit more, than Malice is the strongest heal right out, bug lack of Condt removal can counter it.

I look at your change and all I see is the removal of it’s specialty to fixed performance.
Malice has a niche, that is the reality. Like I said before hit 3 foes with PW, and follow with 2 chains of your auto to beat HiS. If you have caltrops up while you do so, you can easily beat out what HIS or Withdraw can do in 30s, in 10.

Difference between Necro heal?
I can kill the blood fiend in 2 seconds, it’ll never get an attack in and if he doesn’t kill it himself? He won’t get a heal from it either. His entire heal can get blown apart by a stray AOE, hilarious.

I don’t see the problem with the current state of the skill. It hardly heals for anything viable unless you were to stack healing power. Much better to have someone with Regen in the group like a banner/shout warrior if you want good heals. Plus, can’t beat the condition removal of the other skills.

There are hardly any ways for this skill to work in PvP unless you are dueling. I want you to show me a build where a Thief runs in with Shortbow and this and survives a zerg fight without stealthing to avoid being targeted.

Daecollo.9578:

Problem is, even high hit rate attacks have several weaknesses, and the thing is, HHR attacks like Pistol Whip would heal about the same, because you would still get 2 procs from the attacks, same with Unload.

So its kind of a nerf, except not really because its healing for about the same.

except its a huge nerf to the off specs like the deathblossom dodge/heal builds and pve p/p builds. not to mention it procs off cantrops ticks and dagger storm which would be nerf to a thiefs aoe ability in wvw and pve.

tbh i think the current malice is fine. its good for some specs and bad for other….this screams a balanced skill.

It’s already probably the best S/D tank heal in the game. Traited, it’s cooldown is only 12 seconds and it gives you a 5 stack of might. Combined with sword’s cleave proccing it up to 3x per attack makes it just perfect. We already have 2 good large castable heals, these changes would only pigeon-hole our class further.

Adaneshade.2409:

It’s already probably the best S/D tank heal in the game. Traited, it’s cooldown is only 12 seconds and it gives you a 5 stack of might. Combined with sword’s cleave proccing it up to 3x per attack makes it just perfect. We already have 2 good large castable heals, these changes would only pigeon-hole our class further.

Any smart player would realize that it has a hilariously long cast-time, making it prone to almost all CC, which is why nobody in tournament play would ever use it as such. Withdraw is almost 100x better then it is atm for that.

Any smart player would cast it while stealthed…… so some of the CD is used up while invisible >.<

I kinda like the proposed change. Our couple rapid attack channels end up generating about the same passive healing. The only cases where the old passive generates more is Dagger Storm inside a group or shotgunning Cluster Bomb inside a group, in which case the current passive is argued OP by some. But the change makes the passive roughly 2x better for more typical attacks, like #1 spam with pistol or dagger.

Basically, it normalizes the effect to no be lackluster and weak in some cases and not overly strong in others.

Daecollo.9578:

Adaneshade.2409:

It’s already probably the best S/D tank heal in the game. Traited, it’s cooldown is only 12 seconds and it gives you a 5 stack of might. Combined with sword’s cleave proccing it up to 3x per attack makes it just perfect. We already have 2 good large castable heals, these changes would only pigeon-hole our class further.

Any smart player would realize that it has a hilariously long cast-time, making it prone to almost all CC, which is why nobody in tournament play would ever use it as such. Withdraw is almost 100x better then it is atm for that.

Any smart player would realize they have a long cast-time, and take steps to protect it.

BobbyT.7192:

Daecollo.9578:

Adaneshade.2409:

It’s already probably the best S/D tank heal in the game. Traited, it’s cooldown is only 12 seconds and it gives you a 5 stack of might. Combined with sword’s cleave proccing it up to 3x per attack makes it just perfect. We already have 2 good large castable heals, these changes would only pigeon-hole our class further.

Any smart player would realize that it has a hilariously long cast-time, making it prone to almost all CC, which is why nobody in tournament play would ever use it as such. Withdraw is almost 100x better then it is atm for that.

Any smart player would realize they have a long cast-time, and take steps to protect it.

Not to mention, you rarely NEED to cast it if you’re playing right, you aren’t getting hit much.

Adaneshade.2409:

BobbyT.7192:

Daecollo.9578:

Adaneshade.2409:

It’s already probably the best S/D tank heal in the game. Traited, it’s cooldown is only 12 seconds and it gives you a 5 stack of might. Combined with sword’s cleave proccing it up to 3x per attack makes it just perfect. We already have 2 good large castable heals, these changes would only pigeon-hole our class further.

Any smart player would realize that it has a hilariously long cast-time, making it prone to almost all CC, which is why nobody in tournament play would ever use it as such. Withdraw is almost 100x better then it is atm for that.

Any smart player would realize they have a long cast-time, and take steps to protect it.

Not to mention, you rarely NEED to cast it if you’re playing right, you aren’t getting hit much.

True, if I have to pop the heal, something wrong and i ain’t going to last too long unless i have gtfo.

Nope.

Signet of Malice is specifically designed to reward high hit volumes. Normalizing it as such simply makes it an overall worse heal than the other two rather than a situationally better or worse heal.

Thieves already have the best variety of unique heal skills, and all three of them are already very good at their intended purpose whilst simultaneously sucking when that purpose is not met.

• HiS: Awesome when you’re not revealed, kinda crappy when you are. Worse against CC if you haven’t traited for condition removal in stealth.
• Withdraw: Awesome when you’re not bleeding/burning/poisoned/conditioned to death, kinda crappy when you are.
• Signet of Malice: Awesome in target rich/high hit volume scenarios, kinda crappy against single targets/low hit volumes.

This makes heal selection actually important as a skill selection on a moment-to-moment basis, and Anet has repeatedly said that they want and intend for us to be swapping skills between fights based on the situation (similar to how all of GW1 was designed specifically for you to need to swap skills between areas or for PvP group composition.)

Asking for SoM to be good at something that is counter to its design just plain weakens SoM and actively removes rather than adds build options and combat maneuvers that are the sole reason it’s worth putting on your bar. You’re expecting SoM to “just work” rather than having to “make it work for you” and this isn’t how HiS or Withdraw work either.

PopeUrban.2578:

Nope.

Signet of Malice is specifically designed to reward high hit volumes. Normalizing it as such simply makes it an overall worse heal than the other two rather than a situationally better or worse heal.

Thieves already have the best variety of unique heal skills, and all three of them are already very good at their intended purpose whilst simultaneously sucking when that purpose is not met.

• HiS: Awesome when you’re not revealed, kinda crappy when you are. Worse against CC if you haven’t traited for condition removal in stealth.
• Withdraw: Awesome when you’re not bleeding/burning/poisoned/conditioned to death, kinda crappy when you are.
• Signet of Malice: Awesome in target rich/high hit volume scenarios, kinda crappy against single targets/low hit volumes.

This makes heal selection actually important as a skill selection on a moment-to-moment basis, and Anet has repeatedly said that they want and intend for us to be swapping skills between fights based on the situation (similar to how all of GW1 was designed specifically for you to need to swap skills between areas or for PvP group composition.)

Asking for SoM to be good at something that is counter to its design just plain weakens SoM and actively removes rather than adds build options and combat maneuvers that are the sole reason it’s worth putting on your bar. You’re expecting SoM to “just work” rather than having to “make it work for you” and this isn’t how HiS or Withdraw work either.

I’m not saying what it wasn’t or was intended for, but by statistics alone not many people use the healing because its only good for those things, and the high hit volume specs and attacks are rather low.

A lot of traits back then were also designed for high hit volumes, however even they were changed as well to have 1-second internal cool-downs.

The thief isn’t what it was back in beta, its changed a lot since then, and our high-hit-volume attacks are not used as much.

The system I placed, does add a cool-down, but it also lets the thief have a viable build from using everything, and not just “some-attacks.”.

They want SoM to be a better heal, because honestly its not very good, but they can’t just buff the heal amount because of some of our high-hit-volume attacks. The internal cooldown will resolve that issue.

works great for me, I’ve basically use JUST it for pve since the beginning.

Putting internal cooldown on it is pure and simply nerfing it.

Dasorine.1964:

works great for me, I’ve basically use JUST it for pve since the beginning.

Putting internal cooldown on it is pure and simply nerfing it.

Explain how it does.

which one? how it nerfs or how its pretty ace in pve at the very least?

Dasorine.1964:

which one? how it nerfs or how its pretty ace in pve at the very least?

Both.

well in pve you get a constant heal, when combined with rapid hits (such as auto attack chain, deathblossom, unload etc etc) you can take mob after mob without ever needing to stop to heal.

Throw in multiple enemies with caltrops, aoe attacks (death blossom, swiftshot etc etc) you get lots of healing, more than enough to keep yourself up against a reasonable group of mobs.

This was doubly so when you could have omnom pies triggering without an internal cooldown, with that combo you could actually stay in melee range on most dungeon bosses without having to retreat to heal up or such (unfortunately the pies got nerfed so are no longer that good for thieves)

The moment you put a cooldown on it punishes you for playing a thief who is designed for rapid bursts (burn initiative and back off etc) and it also heavily weakens on of the best skills a thief has for AoE situations as while you may have upped the healing per tick to make it about the same against a single target a cooldown totally stops it working on multiple targets.

There is absolutely NO benefit to putting an internal cooldown on, even if you up the on use heal and everything the ones designed for that purpose will still beat it while those situations that the SoM is for and works brilliantly for will be ruined.

The problem is that the instances where it’s good as of now require tradeoffs to make it that good. For instance, running mad king runes on a condition build, taking caltrops on a crit build, shotgunning cluster bomb in stead of using it for the blast finisher, spamming dancing dagger and losing a pool of initiative, giving up HiS stealth on a P/D build, risking a pistol whip when you’re already beat up, etc.

Normalizing it with cooldowns makes it marginally better for all builds while removing the one thing that it actually does well, and simultaneously removing what’s fun and unique about the skill. It’d be like removing the stealth from HiS or the evade from withdraw.

Doing this just makes high hit volume attacks even less attractive and useful, nerfs the survivability of D/D and P/D condition builds (who already pay dearly in terms of damage) and further pigeonholes thieves in to a 100% burst and escape class with no solid stand and fight options.

if you want to make it more attractive for “general use” I’d in stead reccommend making the active effect a 3-4 second buff that doubles or even triples the heal amount, and possibly increasing the cooldown if it feels to out of line. This would make it a bit more attractive to bursty specs.

You’d have the option of escape actives with HiS and Withdraw, or a “last stand” aggressive active with SoM. This preserves the mechanics of SoM while expanding its potential applications rather than expanding its potential applications while gutting the mechanic completely.

Dasorine.1964:

well in pve you get a constant heal, when combined with rapid hits (such as auto attack chain, deathblossom, unload etc etc) you can take mob after mob without ever needing to stop to heal.

Throw in multiple enemies with caltrops, aoe attacks (death blossom, swiftshot etc etc) you get lots of healing, more than enough to keep yourself up against a reasonable group of mobs.

This was doubly so when you could have omnom pies triggering without an internal cooldown, with that combo you could actually stay in melee range on most dungeon bosses without having to retreat to heal up or such (unfortunately the pies got nerfed so are no longer that good for thieves)

The moment you put a cooldown on it punishes you for playing a thief who is designed for rapid bursts (burn initiative and back off etc) and it also heavily weakens on of the best skills a thief has for AoE situations as while you may have upped the healing per tick to make it about the same against a single target a cooldown totally stops it working on multiple targets.

There is absolutely NO benefit to putting an internal cooldown on, even if you up the on use heal and everything the ones designed for that purpose will still beat it while those situations that the SoM is for and works brilliantly for will be ruined.

Situationally, its very good. However there arn’t many situations as perfect as the ones you describe, yes you could cleave and get more and more, but thats why the heal itself is so low.

The limit itself is why its so bad, and also good.

In my situations however would make it a lot better for boss fights and PvP, where players do not stand still or glob up (unless they are bad.)

SoM would not really be ruined, it would actually be better for non-situational situations, like fighting a long battle, where you can’t get them in that cleave limit, the bigger burst heals would help a lot more then situational smaller heals.

@Popeurban
Yes, on gimmicks it is amazing, however gimmicks are also situational. My buff makes it less so, sure you could call that decreasing of the skills itself, but to be honest they will never make this healing skill better because of all the gimmicks. (which it needs to be better, right now its … just not enough.)

problem is for those situations there already heals, your basically taking one skill you don’t find that useful and making it like the ones that already exist.

As said I use it as my main heal skill in pve, this is from basic mob farming to fractals, with evasion and high burst hits I can keep myself up against all but instant death attacks for the most part.

The only times I swap it out is when I need the utility the others give (such as stealth and burn removal on HiS or the evasion and cc break of withdraw)

Just like anything it has its uses for some builds and less for others, but changing it to fit a build it probably wasnt designed for will only ruin it not improve it.

If you find its not working for you, stop trying to use it on a slow hitting build (only ones I could think of for thieves would be a backstab style one in which case why wouldn’t you use HiS that heals and sets up your next hit) you don’t use venoms on a non condition build do you? or do you want them changed so they do a big hit as well but conditions get half duration so that non condition builds can use em?

So why would you want it for this skill?

Dasorine.1964:

problem is for those situations there already heals, your basically taking one skill you don’t find that useful and making it like the ones that already exist.

As said I use it as my main heal skill in pve, this is from basic mob farming to fractals, with evasion and high burst hits I can keep myself up against all but instant death attacks for the most part.

The only times I swap it out is when I need the utility the others give (such as stealth and burn removal on HiS or the evasion and cc break of withdraw)

Just like anything it has its uses for some builds and less for others, but changing it to fit a build it probably wasnt designed for will only ruin it not improve it.

If you find its not working for you, stop trying to use it on a slow hitting build (only ones I could think of for thieves would be a backstab style one in which case why wouldn’t you use HiS that heals and sets up your next hit) you don’t use venoms on a non condition build do you? or do you want them changed so they do a big hit as well but conditions get half duration so that non condition builds can use em?

So why would you want it for this skill?

Honestly, the change would bring higher HPS in real fights.

except it wouldn’t, I already get way more than the amount you listed in a single target encounter with my build and way more in multi target encounters.

You mean it would bring in higher HPS for YOUR build, well guess what, yours isn’t the only build in the game.

Dasorine.1964:

except it wouldn’t, I already get way more than the amount you listed in a single target encounter with my build and way more in multi target encounters.

You mean it would bring in higher HPS for YOUR build, well guess what, yours isn’t the only build in the game.

I use S/P, in fractal boss fights fighting one mob, I usually can only hit one.

With my highest hit rate attack, I can only get “900” healing out of P/W with no healing power.

Because my attacks are a bit slower, I can only hit the target with my ‘1’ ability once every second, which is only about 100 HPS, but then burst with 900 again.

However, with the change, I would still get 2 procs out of it with pistol whip, which would be even more then 900, and still face the refire rate of the sword and get another proc from the next autoattack.

again thats YOUR build, what works for you wont work for others and vice versa.

All skills are not equal, you will never be able to have all skills work equally on all builds, trying to do so will ruin not only the skill but the game.

Dasorine.1964:

again thats YOUR build, what works for you wont work for others and vice versa.

All skills are not equal, you will never be able to have all skills work equally on all builds, trying to do so will ruin not only the skill but the game.

What other build is there?
I mean, I just assumed you were PW, you never told me anything besides that.

What I’m trying to figure out is, if you’re fighting a lone boss when you know a heal is meant for hit volume.
Why you didn’t swap out your heal for the situation?

Im wracking my head on it, but it’s not computing. Like you knowingly limited yourself and blame the skill for you not using it when it is appropriate.
What’s it matter if your pulling 900 health total on 1 enemy. You shouldn’t be using it on one enemy, unless arguably you’ve got some caltrops underneath that kid popping up additional Malice procs.

ensoriki.5789:

What I’m trying to figure out is, if you’re fighting a lone boss when you know a heal is meant for hit volume.
Why you didn’t swap out your heal for the situation?

Im wracking my head on it, but it’s not computing. Like you knowingly limited yourself and blame the skill for you not using it when it is appropriate.
What’s it matter if your pulling 900 health total on 1 enemy. You shouldn’t be using it on one enemy, unless arguably you’ve got some caltrops underneath that kid popping up additional Malice procs.

That works, and thats cool. Except a lot of people in PvP don’t stand still.

With the cap on bleeding stacks as well, bleeds don’t really matter in pve against bosses.

pvp is not the entire kitten game, Im sick of games being balanced around pvp and thus destroying it for many people.

And bleeds, if set up for it, are great against pve bosses, thats why condition builds exist.

Dasorine.1964:

pvp is not the entire kitten game, Im sick of games being balanced around pvp and thus destroying it for many people.

And bleeds, if set up for it, are great against pve bosses, thats why condition builds exist.

Eh… my Warrior alone puts 25 bleeds on the target, and hes power specced, and groups usually have more then 1 Warrior.

I don’t even play my necromancer anymore, because I pretty much get my damage taken away by other classes, because of the caps.

Daecollo.9578:

Dasorine.1964:

problem is for those situations there already heals, your basically taking one skill you don’t find that useful and making it like the ones that already exist.

As said I use it as my main heal skill in pve, this is from basic mob farming to fractals, with evasion and high burst hits I can keep myself up against all but instant death attacks for the most part.

The only times I swap it out is when I need the utility the others give (such as stealth and burn removal on HiS or the evasion and cc break of withdraw)

Just like anything it has its uses for some builds and less for others, but changing it to fit a build it probably wasnt designed for will only ruin it not improve it.

If you find its not working for you, stop trying to use it on a slow hitting build (only ones I could think of for thieves would be a backstab style one in which case why wouldn’t you use HiS that heals and sets up your next hit) you don’t use venoms on a non condition build do you? or do you want them changed so they do a big hit as well but conditions get half duration so that non condition builds can use em?

So why would you want it for this skill?

Honestly, the change would bring higher HPS in real fights.

Against single or highly evasive multiple targets. Where superior heals already exist. Which are already less useful than SoM in large target count situations. The vast, vast majority of fights I’m in in PvE or PvP don’t ever fit this mold. I’m not asking for Withdraw or HiS to be adjusted so they’re better in this situation. SoM isn’t used much because the specs that get the best use out of it are lackluster in damage, and the vast majority of thieves roll specifically for the damage output. Compounded upon that is the fact that the class, due to its reputation and marketing, draws a largely disproportionate number of solo roamers.

There’s nothing wrong with that.

This is a bad change to SoM. Period. It turns a skill that’s fun and unique in to a skill that’s boring and passive. With increased heal with a throttled cooldown, you don’t have the OPTION of setting up a burst heal with SoM any more, and in stead you’re pushing the button for the burst, and you’re getting a burst heal that does… nothing but a heal.

This destroys the entire playstyle of the skill. For what? More faceroll uptime on every thief build? Churning out a thief-base equivalent of the signet warrior? Why?

Could SoM be made more attractive and have greater utility in its non-optimal situations? Yeah. It could. Removing entirely the ability to use it where it’s most optimal is the wrong way to do it.

Using high hit volumes for burst of healing while maintaining a low level of passive healing IS the core mechanic of SoM. Just as much as stealth is the core mechanic of HiS and the long evade is the core mechanic of withdraw. That’s why the active heal is pathetic. Not to just give you the finger, but because the burst heal on SoM is, literally high hit volume attacks.

That mechanic is exactly what makes the skill worth putting on a bar at all. Regardless of the amount healed. That interaction is precisely what makes it an interesting skill. Removing that ability from SoM completely destroys SoM. Heck, you might as well change to effect to “grants X health every Y seconds while in combat” because that’s the general effect with a 1s cooldown.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Dasorine.1964:

problem is for those situations there already heals, your basically taking one skill you don’t find that useful and making it like the ones that already exist.

As said I use it as my main heal skill in pve, this is from basic mob farming to fractals, with evasion and high burst hits I can keep myself up against all but instant death attacks for the most part.

The only times I swap it out is when I need the utility the others give (such as stealth and burn removal on HiS or the evasion and cc break of withdraw)

Just like anything it has its uses for some builds and less for others, but changing it to fit a build it probably wasnt designed for will only ruin it not improve it.

If you find its not working for you, stop trying to use it on a slow hitting build (only ones I could think of for thieves would be a backstab style one in which case why wouldn’t you use HiS that heals and sets up your next hit) you don’t use venoms on a non condition build do you? or do you want them changed so they do a big hit as well but conditions get half duration so that non condition builds can use em?

So why would you want it for this skill?

Honestly, the change would bring higher HPS in real fights.

Against single or highly evasive multiple targets. Where superior heals already exist. Which are already less useful than SoM in large target count situations. The vast, vast majority of fights I’m in in PvE or PvP don’t ever fit this mold. I’m not asking for Withdraw or HiS to be adjusted so they’re better in this situation. SoM isn’t used much because the specs that get the best use out of it are lackluster in damage, and the vast majority of thieves roll specifically for the damage output. Compounded upon that is the fact that the class, due to its reputation and marketing, draws a largely disproportionate number of solo roamers.

There’s nothing wrong with that.

This is a bad change to SoM. Period. It turns a skill that’s fun and unique in to a skill that’s boring and passive. With increased heal with a throttled cooldown, you don’t have the OPTION of setting up a burst heal with SoM any more, and in stead you’re pushing the button for the burst, and you’re getting a burst heal that does… nothing but a heal.

This destroys the entire playstyle of the skill. For what? More faceroll uptime on every thief build? Churning out a thief-base equivalent of the signet warrior? Why?

Could SoM be made more attractive and have greater utility in its non-optimal situations? Yeah. It could. Removing entirely the ability to use it where it’s most optimal is the wrong way to do it.

Using high hit volumes for burst of healing while maintaining a low level of passive healing IS the core mechanic of SoM. Just as much as stealth is the core mechanic of HiS and the long evade is the core mechanic of withdraw. That’s why the active heal is pathetic. Not to just give you the finger, but because the burst heal on SoM is, literally high hit volume attacks.

That mechanic is exactly what makes the skill worth putting on a bar at all. Regardless of the amount healed. That interaction is precisely what makes it an interesting skill. Removing that ability from SoM completely destroys SoM. Heck, you might as well change to effect to “grants X health every Y seconds while in combat” because that’s the general effect with a 1s cooldown.

Kind of sorry to say, but Omnomberry Pie “made” that build, and when it was nerfed that build become “unviable.” or “less-viable.” in almost all situations. Its just not enough. SoM will not be improved either, even though it probably needs to be.

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Dasorine.1964:

problem is for those situations there already heals, your basically taking one skill you don’t find that useful and making it like the ones that already exist.

As said I use it as my main heal skill in pve, this is from basic mob farming to fractals, with evasion and high burst hits I can keep myself up against all but instant death attacks for the most part.

The only times I swap it out is when I need the utility the others give (such as stealth and burn removal on HiS or the evasion and cc break of withdraw)

Just like anything it has its uses for some builds and less for others, but changing it to fit a build it probably wasnt designed for will only ruin it not improve it.

If you find its not working for you, stop trying to use it on a slow hitting build (only ones I could think of for thieves would be a backstab style one in which case why wouldn’t you use HiS that heals and sets up your next hit) you don’t use venoms on a non condition build do you? or do you want them changed so they do a big hit as well but conditions get half duration so that non condition builds can use em?

So why would you want it for this skill?

Honestly, the change would bring higher HPS in real fights.

Against single or highly evasive multiple targets. Where superior heals already exist. Which are already less useful than SoM in large target count situations. The vast, vast majority of fights I’m in in PvE or PvP don’t ever fit this mold. I’m not asking for Withdraw or HiS to be adjusted so they’re better in this situation. SoM isn’t used much because the specs that get the best use out of it are lackluster in damage, and the vast majority of thieves roll specifically for the damage output. Compounded upon that is the fact that the class, due to its reputation and marketing, draws a largely disproportionate number of solo roamers.

There’s nothing wrong with that.

This is a bad change to SoM. Period. It turns a skill that’s fun and unique in to a skill that’s boring and passive. With increased heal with a throttled cooldown, you don’t have the OPTION of setting up a burst heal with SoM any more, and in stead you’re pushing the button for the burst, and you’re getting a burst heal that does… nothing but a heal.

This destroys the entire playstyle of the skill. For what? More faceroll uptime on every thief build? Churning out a thief-base equivalent of the signet warrior? Why?

Could SoM be made more attractive and have greater utility in its non-optimal situations? Yeah. It could. Removing entirely the ability to use it where it’s most optimal is the wrong way to do it.

Using high hit volumes for burst of healing while maintaining a low level of passive healing IS the core mechanic of SoM. Just as much as stealth is the core mechanic of HiS and the long evade is the core mechanic of withdraw. That’s why the active heal is pathetic. Not to just give you the finger, but because the burst heal on SoM is, literally high hit volume attacks.

That mechanic is exactly what makes the skill worth putting on a bar at all. Regardless of the amount healed. That interaction is precisely what makes it an interesting skill. Removing that ability from SoM completely destroys SoM. Heck, you might as well change to effect to “grants X health every Y seconds while in combat” because that’s the general effect with a 1s cooldown.

Kind of sorry to say, but Omnomberry Pie “made” that build, and when it was nerfed that build become “unviable.” or “less-viable.” in almost all situations. Its just not enough. SoM will not be improved either, even though it probably needs to be.

I’m still using SoM

and I never used omnom

because I don’t stack crit, and it was begging for a nerf.

and I still do just fine in dungeons, fractals, and WvW

because I actually built for it and my group actually appreciates that I do the jobs that I do with it

Expecting an omnom-crutch build to work without the omnom is, yes, completely not viable.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Dasorine.1964:

problem is for those situations there already heals, your basically taking one skill you don’t find that useful and making it like the ones that already exist.

As said I use it as my main heal skill in pve, this is from basic mob farming to fractals, with evasion and high burst hits I can keep myself up against all but instant death attacks for the most part.

The only times I swap it out is when I need the utility the others give (such as stealth and burn removal on HiS or the evasion and cc break of withdraw)

Just like anything it has its uses for some builds and less for others, but changing it to fit a build it probably wasnt designed for will only ruin it not improve it.

If you find its not working for you, stop trying to use it on a slow hitting build (only ones I could think of for thieves would be a backstab style one in which case why wouldn’t you use HiS that heals and sets up your next hit) you don’t use venoms on a non condition build do you? or do you want them changed so they do a big hit as well but conditions get half duration so that non condition builds can use em?

So why would you want it for this skill?

Honestly, the change would bring higher HPS in real fights.

Against single or highly evasive multiple targets. Where superior heals already exist. Which are already less useful than SoM in large target count situations. The vast, vast majority of fights I’m in in PvE or PvP don’t ever fit this mold. I’m not asking for Withdraw or HiS to be adjusted so they’re better in this situation. SoM isn’t used much because the specs that get the best use out of it are lackluster in damage, and the vast majority of thieves roll specifically for the damage output. Compounded upon that is the fact that the class, due to its reputation and marketing, draws a largely disproportionate number of solo roamers.

There’s nothing wrong with that.

This is a bad change to SoM. Period. It turns a skill that’s fun and unique in to a skill that’s boring and passive. With increased heal with a throttled cooldown, you don’t have the OPTION of setting up a burst heal with SoM any more, and in stead you’re pushing the button for the burst, and you’re getting a burst heal that does… nothing but a heal.

This destroys the entire playstyle of the skill. For what? More faceroll uptime on every thief build? Churning out a thief-base equivalent of the signet warrior? Why?

Could SoM be made more attractive and have greater utility in its non-optimal situations? Yeah. It could. Removing entirely the ability to use it where it’s most optimal is the wrong way to do it.

Using high hit volumes for burst of healing while maintaining a low level of passive healing IS the core mechanic of SoM. Just as much as stealth is the core mechanic of HiS and the long evade is the core mechanic of withdraw. That’s why the active heal is pathetic. Not to just give you the finger, but because the burst heal on SoM is, literally high hit volume attacks.

That mechanic is exactly what makes the skill worth putting on a bar at all. Regardless of the amount healed. That interaction is precisely what makes it an interesting skill. Removing that ability from SoM completely destroys SoM. Heck, you might as well change to effect to “grants X health every Y seconds while in combat” because that’s the general effect with a 1s cooldown.

Kind of sorry to say, but Omnomberry Pie “made” that build, and when it was nerfed that build become “unviable.” or “less-viable.” in almost all situations. Its just not enough. SoM will not be improved either, even though it probably needs to be.

I’m still using SoM

and I never used omnom

because I don’t stack crit, and it was begging for a nerf.

and I still do just fine in dungeons, fractals, and WvW

because I actually built for it and my group actually appreciates that I do the jobs that I do with it

Expecting an omnom-crutch build to work without the omnom is, yes, completely not viable.

The build you use sounds like a bleed-stacking build that abuses caltraps.
It is good in PvE, except when you main a warrior or necromancer. If you have any of these classes, just assume your not doing damage, because your probably not due to the bleed cap, therefore your probably easily replaceable. I mean your not really doing anything for your group, except decreasing the necromancers dps (if you have one.).

Daecollo.9578:

The build you use sounds like a bleed-stacking build that abuses caltraps.
It is good in PvE, except when you main a warrior or necromancer. If you have any of these classes, just assume your not doing damage, because your probably not due to the bleed cap, therefore your probably easily replaceable. I mean your not really doing anything for your group, except decreasing the necromancers dps (if you have one.).

Wow… just wow… I was half joking when I suggested you think only your spec works and everything should cater to it but… that.. wow… your an kitten

Dasorine.1964:

Daecollo.9578:

The build you use sounds like a bleed-stacking build that abuses caltraps.
It is good in PvE, except when you main a warrior or necromancer. If you have any of these classes, just assume your not doing damage, because your probably not due to the bleed cap, therefore your probably easily replaceable. I mean your not really doing anything for your group, except decreasing the necromancers dps (if you have one.).

Wow… just wow… I was half joking when I suggested you think only your spec works and everything should cater to it but… that.. wow… your an kitten

I play an 80 necromancer and an 80 thief. I am just stating the truth, your not really doing anything for the group besides healing yourself.

However if they removed the bleeding cap or made a mechanic that helps it, then your build would be very very good.

Daecollo.9578:

The build you use sounds like a bleed-stacking build that abuses caltraps.
It is good in PvE, except when you main a warrior or necromancer. If you have any of these classes, just assume your not doing damage, because your probably not due to the bleed cap, therefore your probably easily replaceable. I mean your not really doing anything for your group.

Actually our group includes:
Thief
Necro
GuardianX2
Ele

Our warriors rerolled guardian pretty early on and the necro and I actively avoid stacking condition duration because the bleed cap makes it completely pointless. In stead it’s overall more useful for dungeons/wvw in our situation to up our respective survivability and utility. We’ve essentially got two utility+DoT toons, a single pure GC, and two utility+raw damage. This is absolutely a case of “build adjusted to team composition” at the expense of “build for solo roaming.” There’s very little we’ve run in to we can’t handle with the “shutdown” composition we’ve set up.

Similarly, despite the horror stories I’ve heard of people running condi builds in DEs and getting bronze and whatnot I’ve never had problems with it.

Caltrops is pretty nice for PvE and some zerg fights, but it often gets replaced with scorpion wire, smokescreen, or blinding powder depending on the situation.

Again, your experiences may vary but the point is that changing the core function of SoM is not a good way to make it more useful for more builds/situations.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

The build you use sounds like a bleed-stacking build that abuses caltraps.
It is good in PvE, except when you main a warrior or necromancer. If you have any of these classes, just assume your not doing damage, because your probably not due to the bleed cap, therefore your probably easily replaceable. I mean your not really doing anything for your group.

Actually our group includes:
Thief
Necro
GuardianX2
Ele

Our warriors rerolled guardian pretty early on and the necro and I actively avoid stacking condition duration because the bleed cap makes it completely pointless. In stead it’s overall more useful for dungeons/wvw in our situation to up our respective survivability and utility. We’ve essentially got two utility+DoT toons, a single pure GC, and two utility+raw damage. This is absolutely a case of “build adjusted to team composition” at the expense of “build for solo roaming.” There’s very little we’ve run in to we can’t handle with the “shutdown” composition we’ve set up.

Similarly, despite the horror stories I’ve heard of people running condi builds in DEs and getting bronze and whatnot I’ve never had problems with it.

Caltrops is pretty nice for PvE and some zerg fights, but it often gets replaced with scorpion wire, smokescreen, or blinding powder depending on the situation.

Again, your experiences may vary but the point is that changing the core function of SoM is not a good way to make it more useful for more builds/situations.

Then why are you arguing about my change? Your hit-volume is low, the change would increase your healing a lot due to being able to heal every second and not relying on gimmicks or high hit volume attacks, not decrease it.