Guild Wars 2

This post can be summarized as: L2Dodge Noob

No joking, I got hit by a 10k ranger autoattack once. It hurted. ( I still have no idea how he did that. Even with sig of the wild, sig of the hunt and moment of clarity, that’s one big auto attack)
Then I came on the forums, complained and.. wait, no. I just dealt with it and learned to pay attention to what was around.

oxtred.7658:

No joking, I got hit by a 10k ranger autoattack once. It hurted. ( I still have no idea how he did that. Even with sig of the wild, sig of the hunt and moment of clarity, that’s one big auto attack)
Then I came on the forums, complained and.. wait, no. I just dealt with it and learned to pay attention to what was around.

as theres no explanation of the fight i can assume he stacked might with elite and bloodlust with offhand then had fire and air sigils on bow then used signet of the wild wich gives stability and 25% damage as well as he used his knock down and interrupted you wich gave him opening strike wich grants 150% damage

MrForz.1953:

aspirine.6852:

CobOfCorn.6352:

Because killshot is the most telegraphed skill in this game and anyone with half a brain dodges it.

Wow you have eyes in your back too.

I wouldn’t ignore a Warrior that is within a radius of 2000 units. Or any enemy actually.

I am not good enough to see 5 or more players in one split second and see what everyone of them is doing though.

aspirine.6852:

MrForz.1953:

aspirine.6852:

CobOfCorn.6352:

Because killshot is the most telegraphed skill in this game and anyone with half a brain dodges it.

Wow you have eyes in your back too.

I wouldn’t ignore a Warrior that is within a radius of 2000 units. Or any enemy actually.

I am not good enough to see 5 or more players in one split second and see what everyone of them is doing though.

Then that’s too bad. Thief can die rather fast and if you missed an important intel, you’ll be lying next to the OP in a down state.

When you play Thief long enough, situational awareness becomes second nature because you have gained some valuable wisdom from your past experience.

This is why we use L2P when so-called-Thief goes in the forum to complain, because they are playing a profession that is not a right match to their play style. The OP is better off playing Warrior, yet he comes here to complain about a profession when the problem exists between the chair and the keyboard.

If a proffesion is harder to play than some other proffesion yet they are equally powerful, then they are not so equal at all.

Thief requires > Lightning reflexes, (try dodging with 400 latency.) ability to see what everyone is doing in 1500 range of you at the same time and/or lucky dodges. Pray that you don’t die to some lucky yet deadly instant cast AoE attack while you are in stealth.

Warrior requires > Stay on top of your enemy, use a rotation of skills to immobilize,stun,knockdown etc., Spam your auto-attack. Bored of facerolling your enemies? Switch to rifle to one-shot from 1500 range.

To people that say “but but thief can also do 15k backstabs and 5k CnD and 2k mug and bla bla”. I never defended one-shotting in any of my post. Actually, I even said that if we are also able to one-shot, then it should also be adressed.

Everyone’s missing the biggest clue here.
The dude plays with a minimum of 170ms latency and it goes to 200-300.

You won’t be able to play thief with that latency.
Reroll or be frustrated.

lazycalm.5186:

Everyone’s missing the biggest clue here.
The dude plays with a minimum of 170ms latency and it goes to 200-300.

You won’t be able to play thief with that latency.
Reroll or be frustrated.

I know. Thing is, I can’t decide which class to play. Game is not friendly towards high latency. Melee auto-attacks doesn’t even hit even though I am a meter away from the guy, because in reality I am not even in the melee range. I tried Ranger with LB, it was much easier and I was able to do much more even though I had almost no real experience with it, still it requires fast reflexes and dodges I if wanna survive in hard fights.

All the tanky proffesions are mostly melee. So it is like a trade off for me. I either go with a more mistake forgiving melee class that is hard to play for me due to high latency OR I go with a ranged class that is less forgiving in mistakes due to being squishy.

So yes, melee and squishy is the worst option for me.

Still, my opinion stands; one-shotting is killing the real fun in this game. Needing to check every single thing on the battlefield just to survive a single shot is just Try Harding.

Seriously… I just started thief,
If that happened, it was unfortunate, but if you can’t see it coming you die.
It’s sort of like a thief shadowstepping to you, gibbing you before you can react, and then shadow returning, just with a little less range. If you don’t see it coming, you die. Even if you see it coming, some thieves will infil arrow to infil strike to scorp wire to get to you. Sometimes you can’t run. But the idea of the thief is that you do see it coming. And if you saw a glass cannon built warrior like that before he saw you, maybe he should be your blow up target. or Just harass with the shortbow. Seriously, it sucks, but it happens…
The forums need a /sage/ equivalent

Tempest.4507:

If a proffesion is harder to play than some other proffesion yet they are equally powerful, then they are not so equal at all.

Thief requires > Lightning reflexes, (try dodging with 400 latency.) ability to see what everyone is doing in 1500 range of you at the same time and/or lucky dodges. Pray that you don’t die to some lucky yet deadly instant cast AoE attack while you are in stealth.

Your latency issue has nothing to do with the Thief. Why are you proposing a change to a profession when your computer or internet provider has the issue?

In the same way, why are you proposing a change to a profession when you have a L2P issue?

Warrior requires > Stay on top of your enemy, use a rotation of skills to immobilize,stun,knockdown etc., Spam your auto-attack. Bored of facerolling your enemies? Switch to rifle to one-shot from 1500 range.

Still has nothing to do with the Thief. I believe that you need to complain in the Warrior forum and tell them how OP their Rifle build is. I won’t be surprise if they laugh at your face.

To people that say “but but thief can also do 15k backstabs and 5k CnD and 2k mug and bla bla”. I never defended one-shotting in any of my post. Actually, I even said that if we are also able to one-shot, then it should also be adressed.

No, you’re proposing that Thief should have an increase damage as a compensation.

Have you forgotten this already?

My point is, because thieves depend too much on dodges and stealth… to stay alive and Its one of the hardest thing to do again in my opinion, I dont think we have enough damage to compensate for it. Does anyone else feel like this?

I just love how some people troll 24/7 on the forums instead of actually playing the game. Very amusing.

oxtred.7658:

No joking, I got hit by a 10k ranger autoattack once. It hurted. ( I still have no idea how he did that. Even with sig of the wild, sig of the hunt and moment of clarity, that’s one big auto attack)
Then I came on the forums, complained and.. wait, no. I just dealt with it and learned to pay attention to what was around.

this happened.

I notice one thing which is the reason your not getting higher than 6k… Your not running assassins signet. That there my friend is your 9k backstab booster.

You have to remember that Assassins signet boosts your next 5 attacks by 15%.

If you have built your Thief right to be an assassin and do burst damage. Then you would most likely have built it 5/6/0/0/3 taking all the damaging traits like Dagger training, mug, furious retaliation, Executioner etc. So the damage increase alone is 10% when your opponent has a condition (Steal applies poison and poison applies weakness), 10% when initiative is above 6 (You have 15 initiative from trickery so its not a problem. and 20% extra damage when target is below 50% health. That there alone is a killer boost in damage and when fighting beserker players you are going to hit them hard when you pop that Assassins signet.

It boosts your Steal damage, your cloak and dagger damage, and your backstab. Steal and backstab alone combined with sigils of air and fire should be enough to put your opponent to 50% health where executioner is going into play with the extra 15% from assassins signet which is a whooping total of 60% increased damage on that backstab which will melt your opponent. Now the tricky part is of course to set it up and then finish off your opponent because most classes and players now know how to counter or play around it so it just comes down to the better player in reality.

Tempest.4507:

I just love how some people troll 24/7 on the forums instead of actually playing the game. Very amusing.

What’s more amusing is when someone started a thread about buffing the Thief’s damage only because their latency sucks.

Tempest.4507:

If a proffesion is harder to play than some other proffesion yet they are equally powerful, then they are not so equal at all.

Thief requires > Lightning reflexes, (try dodging with 400 latency.) ability to see what everyone is doing in 1500 range of you at the same time and/or lucky dodges. Pray that you don’t die to some lucky yet deadly instant cast AoE attack while you are in stealth.

?

4 pages of this because you lag?

If you have latency issues and that makes playing a thief abysmally hard for you, why not just roll a warrior instead of trying to imply that something is fundamentally wrong with the class?

Cronicle.5691:

I notice one thing which is the reason your not getting higher than 6k… Your not running assassins signet. That there my friend is your 9k backstab booster.

You have to remember that Assassins signet boosts your next 5 attacks by 15%.

If you have built your Thief right to be an assassin and do burst damage. Then you would most likely have built it 5/6/0/0/3 taking all the damaging traits like Dagger training, mug, furious retaliation, Executioner etc. So the damage increase alone is 10% when your opponent has a condition (Steal applies poison and poison applies weakness), 10% when initiative is above 6 (You have 15 initiative from trickery so its not a problem. and 20% extra damage when target is below 50% health. That there alone is a killer boost in damage and when fighting beserker players you are going to hit them hard when you pop that Assassins signet.

It boosts your Steal damage, your cloak and dagger damage, and your backstab. Steal and backstab alone combined with sigils of air and fire should be enough to put your opponent to 50% health where executioner is going into play with the extra 15% from assassins signet which is a whooping total of 60% increased damage on that backstab which will melt your opponent. Now the tricky part is of course to set it up and then finish off your opponent because most classes and players now know how to counter or play around it so it just comes down to the better player in reality.

I tried all of those. Never one-shotted anyone.Also It is still not counted as one-shot. Basilisk Venom stuns for 1.5 sec, after that time if the target still lives, he/she pops immunity or whatever they have and either run or reset the fight. But please show me a recording of a thief that kills upscaled people with this combo in EotM or a recording that is a year or more old and before the crit nerfs.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Tempest.4507:

If a proffesion is harder to play than some other proffesion yet they are equally powerful, then they are not so equal at all.

Thief requires > Lightning reflexes, (try dodging with 400 latency.) ability to see what everyone is doing in 1500 range of you at the same time and/or lucky dodges. Pray that you don’t die to some lucky yet deadly instant cast AoE attack while you are in stealth.

?

4 pages of this because you lag?

If you have latency issues and that makes playing a thief abysmally hard for you, why not just roll a warrior instead of trying to imply that something is fundamentally wrong with the class?

I said about the lag on my very first post. You read that now?

That aside, with latency or not. Dodging is still harder than facerolling your opponent.

Also, nerfing a classes ability to one-shot OR ability to make a combo attack that is close to one-shot doesn’t mean that nerfing its damage.

Increasing the damage of auto-attack, Dancing Dagger, changing or improving Death Blossom to work in power builds while nerfing backstab or changing how it scales with power ( can be made to hit for a percentage of opponents HP, based on the power thief has) can be done at the same time. These are the ideas I came up within seconds. I am sure better things can be done.

Tempest.4507:

Cronicle.5691:

I notice one thing which is the reason your not getting higher than 6k… Your not running assassins signet. That there my friend is your 9k backstab booster.

You have to remember that Assassins signet boosts your next 5 attacks by 15%.

If you have built your Thief right to be an assassin and do burst damage. Then you would most likely have built it 5/6/0/0/3 taking all the damaging traits like Dagger training, mug, furious retaliation, Executioner etc. So the damage increase alone is 10% when your opponent has a condition (Steal applies poison and poison applies weakness), 10% when initiative is above 6 (You have 15 initiative from trickery so its not a problem. and 20% extra damage when target is below 50% health. That there alone is a killer boost in damage and when fighting beserker players you are going to hit them hard when you pop that Assassins signet.

It boosts your Steal damage, your cloak and dagger damage, and your backstab. Steal and backstab alone combined with sigils of air and fire should be enough to put your opponent to 50% health where executioner is going into play with the extra 15% from assassins signet which is a whooping total of 60% increased damage on that backstab which will melt your opponent. Now the tricky part is of course to set it up and then finish off your opponent because most classes and players now know how to counter or play around it so it just comes down to the better player in reality.

I tried all of those. Never one-shotted anyone.Also It is still not counted as one-shot. Basilisk Venom stuns for 1.5 sec, after that time if the target still lives, he/she pops immunity or whatever they have and either run or reset the fight. But please show me a recording of a thief that kills upscaled people with this combo in EotM or a recording that is a year or more old and before the crit nerfs.

….

Honestly i dont know why you couldn’t search that yourself or did you want me to just prove you a point? If you have 233% crit damage your going to see some good numbers on a crit.

Btw these videos arnt with assassins signet and look at still the damage they do. They are glassy and they would go down fast if they are caught with their pants down.

Tempest.4507:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Tempest.4507:

If a proffesion is harder to play than some other proffesion yet they are equally powerful, then they are not so equal at all.

Thief requires > Lightning reflexes, (try dodging with 400 latency.) ability to see what everyone is doing in 1500 range of you at the same time and/or lucky dodges. Pray that you don’t die to some lucky yet deadly instant cast AoE attack while you are in stealth.

?

4 pages of this because you lag?

If you have latency issues and that makes playing a thief abysmally hard for you, why not just roll a warrior instead of trying to imply that something is fundamentally wrong with the class?

That aside, with latency or not. Dodging is still harder than facerolling your opponent.

Going to address this for now.

Objectively, no it isnt. And when you speak about facerolling and dodging, take into account that these have relevancy related to your class.

Knowing when to dodge is more of a core mechanic for thieves than it is a core mechanic for warriors. Granted, dodging is a core mechanic for all classes, but it has more impact and centrality to the thief playstyle. This does not make the actual class harder or easier to play, there is just more weight centered on evasion.

staying on your opponent is also a playstyle. Warriors have little to no evades, and they usually have their builds centered around damage soaking in exchange for being slow and having their most damaging skills come with a huge windup.

but you knew that.

I don’t think thieves need a damage buff to compensate for this reliance. they already have access to several defensive measures that make it difficult to target them, and good thieves can get the drop on you and escape almost as easily. The worst thing anet could do to thief in terms of balancing is make it possible for them to down heavies from out of nowhere in a couple of seconds if they aren’t full glass. They’d go from being ‘potentially op’ to just plain broken.

There isnt a single person in this thread that agrees with you Tempest. Any person comming here seeking advice would take such into account and be alittle humble about it. Now after 4 pages this should be quite clear, and since you still come back with little things you comment on just to boost your selfpreservation, I suggest leaving it like that. If we are such trolls, and you the bright one, then leave us be, as the answers you seek cant be found in this knowledge base..

Cronicle.5691:

Tempest.4507:

Cronicle.5691:

I notice one thing which is the reason your not getting higher than 6k… Your not running assassins signet. That there my friend is your 9k backstab booster.

You have to remember that Assassins signet boosts your next 5 attacks by 15%.

If you have built your Thief right to be an assassin and do burst damage. Then you would most likely have built it 5/6/0/0/3 taking all the damaging traits like Dagger training, mug, furious retaliation, Executioner etc. So the damage increase alone is 10% when your opponent has a condition (Steal applies poison and poison applies weakness), 10% when initiative is above 6 (You have 15 initiative from trickery so its not a problem. and 20% extra damage when target is below 50% health. That there alone is a killer boost in damage and when fighting beserker players you are going to hit them hard when you pop that Assassins signet.

It boosts your Steal damage, your cloak and dagger damage, and your backstab. Steal and backstab alone combined with sigils of air and fire should be enough to put your opponent to 50% health where executioner is going into play with the extra 15% from assassins signet which is a whooping total of 60% increased damage on that backstab which will melt your opponent. Now the tricky part is of course to set it up and then finish off your opponent because most classes and players now know how to counter or play around it so it just comes down to the better player in reality.

I tried all of those. Never one-shotted anyone.Also It is still not counted as one-shot. Basilisk Venom stuns for 1.5 sec, after that time if the target still lives, he/she pops immunity or whatever they have and either run or reset the fight. But please show me a recording of a thief that kills upscaled people with this combo in EotM or a recording that is a year or more old and before the crit nerfs.

….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc1Kwf89Www

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDvwyljrws

Honestly i dont know why you couldn’t search that yourself or did you want me to just prove you a point? If you have 233% crit damage your going to see some good numbers on a crit.

Btw these videos arnt with assassins signet and look at still the damage they do. They are glassy and they would go down fast if they are caught with their pants down.

…aaaaaand where are the one-shots? The very first fight in the first video; a mesmer probably sorting out his inventory as when a thief CnD and Backstabs him, he just keeps running, a necro that leaves his Full Death Shroud the moment he expect a backstab because “Why the hell not?”, an elementalist that pops out his Earth Shield and turns his back to a thief and keeps running. Not a single dodge from all 3 of them.

OP Thief.

Tempest.4507:

…aaaaaand where are the one-shots? The very first fight in the first video; a mesmer probably sorting out his inventory as when a thief CnD and Backstabs him, he just keeps running, a necro that leaves his Full Death Shroud the moment he expect a backstab because “Why the hell not?”, an elementalist that pops out his Earth Shield and turns his back to a thief and keeps running. Not a single dodge from all 3 of them.

OP Thief.

Now you understand how everyone feels about your complaints about rifle warriors being OP

“Knowing when to dodge is more of a core mechanic for thieves than it is a core mechanic for warriors. Granted, dodging is a core mechanic for all classes, but it has more impact and centrality to the thief playstyle. This does not make the actual class harder or easier to play, there is just more weight centered on evasion.” – It kinda does. Dodging is simply harder as it requires more attention on whats going on around you and faster reflexes compared to just staying on the target and doing your 3-4-1 rotations or whatever it is.

“staying on your opponent is also a playstyle. Warriors have little to no evades, and they usually have their builds centered around damage soaking in exchange for being slow and having their most damaging skills come with a huge windup.” – Staying on top of your opponent is also needed by thief in order to deal fair amount of damage. It is a trade off that warriors simply don’t need to do.

“I don’t think thieves need a damage buff to compensate for this reliance. they already have access to several defensive measures that make it difficult to target them, and good thieves can get the drop on you and escape almost as easily. The worst thing anet could do to thief in terms of balancing is make it possible for them to down heavies from out of nowhere in a couple of seconds if they aren’t full glass. They’d go from being ‘potentially op’ to just plain broken.” – Increasing simple skills damage (Death Blossom, Auto-attack, Dancing Dagger or whatever), while reducing the backstab or just changing the way it damages, is kind of removing our “one-shot” ability (not that I think we have) while also puting us on equal foot with other melee classes.

Puck.9612:

Tempest.4507:

…aaaaaand where are the one-shots? The very first fight in the first video; a mesmer probably sorting out his inventory as when a thief CnD and Backstabs him, he just keeps running, a necro that leaves his Full Death Shroud the moment he expect a backstab because “Why the hell not?”, an elementalist that pops out his Earth Shield and turns his back to a thief and keeps running. Not a single dodge from all 3 of them.

OP Thief.

Now you understand how everyone feels about your complaints about rifle warriors being OP

Yet none of thieves attacks were one-shot. Good try though.

nacario.9417:

There isnt a single person in this thread that agrees with you Tempest. Any person comming here seeking advice would take such into account and be alittle humble about it. Now after 4 pages this should be quite clear, and since you still come back with little things you comment on just to boost your selfpreservation, I suggest leaving it like that. If we are such trolls, and you the bright one, then leave us be, as the answers you seek cant be found in this knowledge base..

There were a few, but unfortunately this forum is crawling with trolls since god knows when (probably right after launch), they simply gave up arguing with you. Well, a full fledged troll like Sir Vincent that is on these forums 24/7 kinda leaves no choice.

So full adrenaline kill shot has a 3.25 multiplier. It takes 1.25 seconds to channel now.
CnD has a 1.5 multiplier (0.5 sec) and Backstab has a 2.4 mult (0.25 sec) which is a total of 3.9 in less than a second. We have a higher but riskier burst.

We are a higher risk, higher reward class which requires lower latency. That’s just how it goes.

Tempest.4507:

nacario.9417:

There isnt a single person in this thread that agrees with you Tempest. Any person comming here seeking advice would take such into account and be alittle humble about it. Now after 4 pages this should be quite clear, and since you still come back with little things you comment on just to boost your selfpreservation, I suggest leaving it like that. If we are such trolls, and you the bright one, then leave us be, as the answers you seek cant be found in this knowledge base..

There were a few, but unfortunately this forum is crawling with trolls since god knows when (probably right after launch), they simply gave up arguing with you. Well, a full fledged troll like Sir Vincent that is on these forums 24/7 kinda leaves no choice.

Give it up nacario.9417, he don’t seek knowledge, he seeks pity.

Tempest.4507:

Puck.9612:

Tempest.4507:

…aaaaaand where are the one-shots? The very first fight in the first video; a mesmer probably sorting out his inventory as when a thief CnD and Backstabs him, he just keeps running, a necro that leaves his Full Death Shroud the moment he expect a backstab because “Why the hell not?”, an elementalist that pops out his Earth Shield and turns his back to a thief and keeps running. Not a single dodge from all 3 of them.

OP Thief.

Now you understand how everyone feels about your complaints about rifle warriors being OP

Yet none of thieves attacks were one-shot. Good try though.

Go watch some of the full signet thief videos

nacario.9417:

There isnt a single person in this thread that agrees with you Tempest.

I don’t post here at all, but this comment really pushed my buttons. You and others have done nothing more than laugh and lol at Tempest’s thoughts, yet I haven’t seen a single point that was as genuinely argued as some of his own. Why do you all have to persecute somebody for stating facts of the matter? Thieves are in an unhealthy state at the moment and rely far too heavily on an unfair skill/mechanics-cap in order to overcome keyboard-rolling Warriors and others. If you deny this, you’re indeed either a troll or are delusional, because if that’s not true, there wouldn’t be such a proliferation of patently more powerful classes being played, while the thief is relegated to attempting what used to work well, but is hopelessly impotent.

Our effectiveness in zergs is completely underwhelming and limp, besides keeping downs from rallying. 1v1 requires near flawless play even when against other classes that have the liberty of making mistakes with more “get out of jail free cards” available to them. Would learning to player better help thieves feel more potent? Sure, this goes for every class, but unlike most others, for thieves it is absolutely required to be a mechanics god in order to excel at anything. Thieves are pigeon-holed into playing a style that Anet nerfed into oblivion some time ago, yet we were offered no alternative other than performing a bit-part role.

It used to be that if you were a crappy thief, mechanics-wise, you could still be helpful. Now, if you’re such a person, you’re utterly useless, whereas if you’re a crappy Warrior, Necro, Guardian, etc. nowadays, you’re just as much a cheese machine as ever. There are many, many things that could be tweaked in thieves’ kit and gameplay, but for whatever reason nothing changes. Anet seems happy in the fact that we have no real role other than being a kitten collector on battlefields. They’re content even to make a new class that gathers everything unfair in other classes and cramming it into a single one.

Thieves are in a bad place right now, so I don’t know trolls from every corner of the earth feel the need to come out from under their rocks and rave about somebody stating simple truths. I knew this forum was petty and childish, but c’mon…

Tempest.4507:

Yet none of thieves attacks were one-shot. Good try though.

If you don’t have the ability to spot, and dodge a warrior’s attempt to kill-shot you, I highly doubt you’d survive a Thief’s attempt to just Steal-Petrify > CnD > Backstab you. And the said Thief can be far more flexible on top of it, coupling it with stealth before engaging. (A waste most of the time, but the whole Warrior rifle build itself is a waste too)

Seeing how this discussion has been drawn out it’s surprising that you’d still cling to it. You can’t possibly be encountering that many rifle warriors one-shotting you, can you?

Electes.8642:

nacario.9417:

There isnt a single person in this thread that agrees with you Tempest.

Thieves are in a bad place right now, so I don’t know trolls from every corner of the earth feel the need to come out from under their rocks and rave about somebody stating simple truths. I knew this forum was petty and childish, but c’mon…

The reason people are arguing against his point is because Tempest seems unable to understand that the kill shot warrior only one-shot him because Tempest chooses to build extremely glassy and he did not dodge or otherwise avoid the kill shot. If you build for spike damage, you should expect to get spiked once in a while.

Then he tells us that the typical backstab build cannot one shot people because his opponents either have the sense to build for some defence, or from a perceived lack of damage on the thief’s part. Whether the damage comes from an individual hit or from a chain of actions is entirely irrelevant if the damage comes in a split second, especially with the latency he’s talking about, so I’m not sure why this is even a point of debate.

If he wasn’t running around on pure zerk, and his latency wasn’t that bad to the point where he can’t dodge effectively, then he would likely have survived. That’s not the warrior or the thief profession’s fault, it’s his own, and it’s the fact that he refuses to acknowledge this and ignores genuine advice that’s causing people to disregard his argument.

TLDR: He’s entitled to his opinion, we however are not forced to take it seriously.

Electes.8642:

nacario.9417:

There isnt a single person in this thread that agrees with you Tempest.

I don’t post here at all, but this comment really pushed my buttons. You and others have done nothing more than laugh and lol at Tempest’s thoughts, yet I haven’t seen a single point that was as genuinely argued as some of his own.

We tryed to help in the first 2 kitten pages.

There is absolutely nothing else to say in this matter.

Electes.8642:

nacario.9417:

There isnt a single person in this thread that agrees with you Tempest.

I don’t post here at all, but this comment really pushed my buttons. You and others have done nothing more than laugh and lol at Tempest’s thoughts, yet I haven’t seen a single point that was as genuinely argued as some of his own. Why do you all have to persecute somebody for stating facts of the matter? Thieves are in an unhealthy state at the moment and rely far too heavily on an unfair skill/mechanics-cap in order to overcome keyboard-rolling Warriors and others. If you deny this, you’re indeed either a troll or are delusional, because if that’s not true, there wouldn’t be such a proliferation of patently more powerful classes being played, while the thief is relegated to attempting what used to work well, but is hopelessly impotent.

We all recognize the imbalance but the OPs suggestion is not the solution since it will only add to the problem.

I took the liberty to ask in the Warrior forum and this is how it went;
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Warrior-Rifle-build-in-WvW/first#post4895292

The problem lies with the Warrior’s ability to gain so much damage, not with the Thief. However the OP has other issues, mainly his horrible internet connection.

Our effectiveness in zergs is completely underwhelming and limp, besides keeping downs from rallying. 1v1 requires near flawless play even when against other classes that have the liberty of making mistakes with more “get out of jail free cards” available to them. Would learning to player better help thieves feel more potent? Sure, this goes for every class, but unlike most others, for thieves it is absolutely required to be a mechanics god in order to excel at anything. Thieves are pigeon-holed into playing a style that Anet nerfed into oblivion some time ago, yet we were offered no alternative other than performing a bit-part role.

Still doesn’t justify a damage buff when a Thief builds to be a glass cannon. Dying horribly from Kill Shot is the risk he choose to take.

Sure a lot of tweaks and fixes needs to be done, but not towards power creep rather towards adding more diversity in build options.

It used to be that if you were a crappy thief, mechanics-wise, you could still be helpful. Now, if you’re such a person, you’re utterly useless, whereas if you’re a crappy Warrior, Necro, Guardian, etc. nowadays, you’re just as much a cheese machine as ever.

That’s the problem. If a crappy Thief deals a lot of damage, a good Thief will deal exponentially even more damage to a point that the profession is broken.

The Thief is not made to accommodate bad players or bad connections, it requires that the profession is played well and with good connection. Basing the profession’s defense mechanic around dodge and evade is a huge given that you should have a good internet connection (or a good computer) to play it.

There are many, many things that could be tweaked in thieves’ kit and gameplay, but for whatever reason nothing changes. Anet seems happy in the fact that we have no real role other than being a kitten collector on battlefields. They’re content even to make a new class that gathers everything unfair in other classes and cramming it into a single one.

I don’t believe anyone disagree with this.

Thieves are in a bad place right now, so I don’t know trolls from every corner of the earth feel the need to come out from under their rocks and rave about somebody stating simple truths. I knew this forum was petty and childish, but c’mon…

Your defense of the OP is misplaced. The only truth that the OP has posted is the fact that he died from Kill Shot out of “nowhere”. However, suggesting that the Thief should get a damage buff to compensate for his lack of situational awareness and bad latency is where the truth stopped.

Edit double post

Electes.8642:

nacario.9417:

There isnt a single person in this thread that agrees with you Tempest.

I don’t post here at all, but this comment really pushed my buttons. You and others have done nothing more than laugh and lol at Tempest’s thoughts, yet I haven’t seen a single point that was as genuinely argued as some of his own. Why do you all have to persecute somebody for stating facts of the matter? Thieves are in an unhealthy state at the moment and rely far too heavily on an unfair skill/mechanics-cap in order to overcome keyboard-rolling Warriors and others. If you deny this, you’re indeed either a troll or are delusional, because if that’s not true, there wouldn’t be such a proliferation of patently more powerful classes being played, while the thief is relegated to attempting what used to work well, but is hopelessly impotent.

Our effectiveness in zergs is completely underwhelming and limp, besides keeping downs from rallying. 1v1 requires near flawless play even when against other classes that have the liberty of making mistakes with more “get out of jail free cards” available to them. Would learning to player better help thieves feel more potent? Sure, this goes for every class, but unlike most others, for thieves it is absolutely required to be a mechanics god in order to excel at anything. Thieves are pigeon-holed into playing a style that Anet nerfed into oblivion some time ago, yet we were offered no alternative other than performing a bit-part role.

It used to be that if you were a crappy thief, mechanics-wise, you could still be helpful. Now, if you’re such a person, you’re utterly useless, whereas if you’re a crappy Warrior, Necro, Guardian, etc. nowadays, you’re just as much a cheese machine as ever. There are many, many things that could be tweaked in thieves’ kit and gameplay, but for whatever reason nothing changes. Anet seems happy in the fact that we have no real role other than being a kitten collector on battlefields. They’re content even to make a new class that gathers everything unfair in other classes and cramming it into a single one.

Thieves are in a bad place right now, so I don’t know trolls from every corner of the earth feel the need to come out from under their rocks and rave about somebody stating simple truths. I knew this forum was petty and childish, but c’mon…

Youre saying i havent done anything but laugh and lol at him? Then may i suggest reading my posts from first page in this thread? I and others have given him fair advice but maybe you should take a look at his wording too in this thread, it goes both ways. nd we are talking about wvw and thieves are not in a bad spot (and pve)here when it comes to their roaming and 1v1 role.

Thieves are all about risk = reward. Hope we are all clear about this. Melee range for damage, since shortbow’s nerf after nerf left us use it mainly for mobility.

Now we can all agree that small scale battles are the most common type of engagement in this game? Wheter in sPvP or WvW. 1v1 is more rare than a Zerg vs Zerg fight.

A Full zerker warrior traited for ultimate damage can easily kill people from a range 1200-1500. That can be behind of his zerg or close to frontlines. Not requiring to jump on the backline of enemy and risk his life. That aside, his high HP pool, Heavy Armor and his all-time HP regen saves his skin enough times even in a huge fights with skill lag.

A thief on the other hand, even if able to do same or let’s assume more damage, he/she needs to jump on enemy, where in a sec or less, will be caught in a AoE from someone that has not even seen the thief untill the thief is dead, or ranger specificly waiting for a thief on the backlines because he knows it’s the only thing a thief can do in a engagement beside being a venom share bot or a medic (pathetic really…) or any class or person actually, that uses a CC or just auto-attack. And the thief will be dead. Last Refuge, Shadow Refuge, Shadowstep or any other thing won’t save the thief in that moment. Because It all happens in a split second. If thief chooses to go more tanky spec, he/she won’t have enough damage output to “assassinate” his/her target and live long enough to get away either.

So if you look at the both proffession and what they can achieve while how much skill or action they require to work, you should be accepting the fact that thieves stay far behind the warrior.

So in all fairness, I really think that;

Thieves are actually; risk > reward

Whereas Warriors, risk = reward, if not risk < reward.

Also, all I suggested was, removing any classes ability to one-shot one another no matter how squishy they are. Jumping on someone unaware of you should give you the advantage yes. And more, if the target is squishy. But it should not win you the fight in that very millisecond.

Second suggestion I made( or the first one since its on my first post) was to increase the damage output a thief can do, in order to turn him in to a proper assassin, unlike the fly they are now. This can be done in a way of modifying some skills or improving the some useless skills we have now. (Death Blossom for power based builds, Dancing Dagger to be usefull other than a Aegis breaker or 2-3 sec cripple). Now I don’t claim these suggestions are perfect or anything. I am sure better modifications can be done to these skills if really wanted.

A side note: I left playing the game on prime times due to having high latency. I get 90-200 latency out of prime times which is not perfect but playable. I decided to main a DPS guardian because I beliave they are the true example of risk = reward gameplay. Also ability to counter almost every thief build is like the cherry on top.

Tempest.4507:

So if you look at the both proffession and what they can achieve while how much skill or action they require to work, you should be accepting the fact that thieves stay far behind the warrior.

You’re close to, but missing the point of what many people are trying to explain to you.

On the surface, yes: Thieves stay far behind the warrior. What the posters against you are trying to mention, though, is that that is not always the case, and in the sense of high tier play, never the case.

While the fact that dps guard is a no-contest against thief and -that- needs to be addressed, it should not be done in a damage buff against the thief. Versus Warrior, Thieves have both a lower skill floor and an exponentially high skill ceiling, which means that worse thief players will suffer against the warrior, and better players will carve them up like swiss cheese.

Average thieves can and will lose to Average (and in some cases, poor) warriors, but even exceptional warriors are heavily limited by their core class concepts and will be easily read and subsequently ruined by exceptional thieves.

Adding damage to thieves will only widen the gap on the already monumental skill ceiling thieves enjoy.

On another note, it’s difficult to argue against one shots, due to the fact toughness and vitality are stats widely available, but often foregone by many classes, and running without toughness should carry the risk of being insta-melted with it.

So if thief use berserker armors he have to use berserker jewelery and weapons too?

Tempest.4507:

A thief on the other hand, even if able to do same or let’s assume more damage, he/she needs to jump on enemy, where in a sec or less, will be caught in a AoE…

This type of comment is what shows everyone that this issue boils down to the Thief not knowing what they can and cannot do, which falls into the realm of L2P.

And if the Warrior is aiming a Kill Shot at 1500 range, it only takes one step back to get out of range. No Warrior uses Kill Shot at point blank range unless they risk getting interrupted. So a lot of the OPs arguments are moot because they are based on his misguided assumptions.

Junkpile.7439:

So if thief use berserker armors he have to use berserker jewelery and weapons too?

To get the right amount of damage and survivability, valk or soldier’s acessories are mixed in, but zerk is usually used as the base. More defensive pieces swapped in until you reach a health pool you’re comfortable with, but power is still usually the main stat.

Electes.8642:

nacario.9417:

There isnt a single person in this thread that agrees with you Tempest.

I don’t post here at all, but this comment really pushed my buttons. You and others have done nothing more than laugh and lol at Tempest’s thoughts, yet I haven’t seen a single point that was as genuinely argued as some of his own.

Yes, why would you argue with topic as simple as 1+1=2
please, tell me why 1+1=2, tell me, please, if you don’t tell me then 1+1 is not 2.

btw people have actually given him advice, but hes the one who laughs at everyone else for not agreeing with him.

I can’t beliave all people here still try to hang on to the scenario of 1v1 with the warrior to prove themselves right.

It never was and never will be about dueling with the warrior.

My latency is not the issue here. The issue is your lack of ability to understand what is written.

Nobody is talking about dueling. Except you.

There isnt even a 1v1 mode in this game also.

Small scale fights is what this game is all about.

In Small scale fights, a zerker kill-shot warrior is able to do the same of a zerker thief, only easier and safer.

Not a single thief even though I am the squishest thing on the battlefield, was able to one-shot me with any of said combos. 1.5 sec of stun and a lot of damage yes. BUT I can easily use Shadowstep or Withdraw plus Shadow Refuge to get away right after stun ends. A bullet that hits you more than your Max HP, does not allow you to use any of your abilities. Because you are downed the moment it hits you.

IF it was 1v1, dodging would have been easy. Even though its A LOT harder with high latency, it is still possible. Nothing would have been an issue here.

BUT

It wasn’t 1v1. This post was never about 1v1.

And NO, your claims about how you can see 10+ people at the SAME time and understand what they are doing, while also focusing on your target does not save you. It is humanly not possible.

Kill-shot is an issue on anything from small scale to zerg battles. Because it is one-shot from a safe range.

Instead of a thief that needs to get in melee range in order to deal close to the damage of kill-shot, Warrior do it from 1500 range. No need to get in melee range. No need to risk getting hit by knockbacks or AoE. It is NO RISK = HIGH REWARD for the warrior.

The issue is this and nothing else. There is no latency. It is simple logic. The topic is this and ONLY this.

BUT THATS NOT ALL;

I also agreed to nerf on one-shotting of any classes. And that includes thieves as well. (still no example of that though). But removing ones ability to one-shot does not mean nerfing its total damage. Those are 2 diffrent things.

Lol, small scale full zerer warrior is safer? please, in a small scale when endure pain is gone, a full zerker warrior is a dead warrior

thief has on demand stealth application to remove focus and that’s why i only play thief in wvw to avoid getting gang kittened
l2p k thx bye.

lighter.2708:

Lol, small scale full zerer warrior is safer? please, in a small scale when endure pain is gone, a full zerker warrior is a dead warrior

thief has on demand stealth application to remove focus and that’s why i only play thief in wvw to avoid getting gang kittened
l2p k thx bye.

I think real persons need more than stealth to forget about a thief in the battlefield. Kill-shot warrior can use his second set to run away also. Power rangers are able to live, why would a min 1200 range warrior be dead?

To much focus on what damage thief and warrior does compared to each other, remind yourself of what each class has that is unique, and also counting the other 6 classes, not thief vs warr. I would agree the zerker rifle warr being op if he would be as strong single target dmg like with survivability, but it doesnt add up. A thief can shadowstep larger distances with its unique initiative mechanic, stealth features, with ability to dodge more. A rifle warrior cannot do that. But now were just repeating ourselves. Maybe tempest could make this thread in warrior forum, since its not going anywhere here than sheer entertainment.

nacario.9417:

To much focus on what damage thief and warrior does compared to each other, remind yourself of what each class has that is unique, and also counting the other 6 classes, not thief vs warr. I would agree the zerker rifle warr being op if he would be as strong single target dmg like with survivability, but it doesnt add up. A thief can shadowstep larger distances with its unique initiative mechanic, stealth features, with ability to dodge more. A rifle warrior cannot do that. But now were just repeating ourselves. Maybe tempest could make this thread in warrior forum, since its not going anywhere here than sheer entertainment.

A zerker warrior can also one-shot a thief, then start kiting if he is being focused.

A zerker warrior also has 3 utilities 2 dodges and an elite.

A zerker warrior is no way behind of thief in terms of mobility. While a thief needs initiative to do damage, this means he won’t have initiative to run away in that moment (see the risk=reward right here?) But a zerker warrior can use 1 set of weapon for kiting( just like thief with SB except not needing initiative) and his utilities, while having high HP and high armor and regen.

A thief can dodge more, because he needs to dodge more just to be able to survive. A warrior doesn’t need to dodge that more either.

But yeah, I am also keep repeating myself because even though original post is right there, people keep changing the scenario and modifying it to their like to show how right they are.

He keeps on insisting that the Warrior is at the maximum range possible of Kill Shot without realizing that at that range, Kill Shot is easy to avoid — even without knowing that the Warrior is using the skill.

At 1500 range, a small step to the side or to the back will interrupt the skill.

So to get killed at 1500 range, it’s either the Thief is oblivious to the world, or the Thief is trying to lay an egg in the middle of the fight.

This is why the Thieves who learn to play the profession knew, instinctively, that the safe place in a fight — large or small — is at the outside perimeter, where they can do so much damage to stragglers and force the zerg to divide.

I was in a WvW the other day and we’ve engaged a group of enemy who have build a couple Trebs trying to cap one of our tower. It was a zerg vs. zerg, not as big as it was before, but I’ll say about 150 vs 150 — more or less.

So should I jump in the middle of the pandemonium, where AoE and Rifle Warrior are blasting the area, so that I’d end up like the OP? Of course not! I don’t have a L2P issue.

As the enemy try to counter our advance, I sneak behind them and took out the Trebs — it was an automatic rout and I was picking-off the stragglers pulling them in with scorp-wire. One of the benefits of learning how to play Thief.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Versus Warrior, Thieves have both a lower skill floor and an exponentially high skill ceiling, which means that worse thief players will suffer against the warrior, and better players will carve them up like swiss cheese.

Average thieves can and will lose to Average (and in some cases, poor) warriors, but even exceptional warriors are heavily limited by their core class concepts and will be easily read and subsequently ruined by exceptional thieves.

Pretty much this.

Thieves have plenty of tools in their kit to ruin a warrior, and it doesn’t take a super-precise thief to take down an average warrior either.

Sure, you’ll be in trouble if you get caught with your pants down by a zerk warrior burst, but the same is true for the warrior against a burst thief. Warriors can be read pretty easily, and the big skills mostly have big telegraphs.

But if you’re having trouble with them just run a pistol build and keep your distance. Doesn’t take a lot of skill or precision to do that. In fact, I’ve seen considerably less skilled thieves take down warrior builds run by more skilled players doing just that.

(I’ve been both the less skilled thief and the more skilled warrior)

Tempest.4507:

Small scale fights is what this game is all about.

In Small scale fights, a zerker kill-shot warrior is able to do the same of a zerker thief, only easier and safer.

You’re absolutely right. Small scale is really where it’s interesting and 1 v 1 almost always comes down build v build. Besides zerker warriors, fresh air eles, shatter mesmers, Med guardians, zerker rangers, etc. can also instant gib glass thieves while glass thieves cannot do the same back (most of the time :P). Why do you think that is?

I’ll try to explain at least why i think they made it like that. I just do not think it’s a thief’s role.

While other classes might have higher burst, sometimes much higher or even higher aoe burst compared to our single target burst! They could never do what a thief (especially d/d thieves) can do in wvw (small scale or even in GVGs) which is… have the staying power to be behind enemy groups nearly 100% of the time, far from any type of support, have the damage pressure to make squishies do stupid things, and the mobility to get to the exact target whenever needed. The ability to get to the right place, at the right time, stay there, have enough to get the job done (whatever it might be), while outnumbered, and do it over and over again. If these things are what we get for trading away big big numbers then… well that’s fine no?

Obviously there are limits to that. but no other class can do it nearly as well as thieves can. I made an super ugly paint picture of what I think a thief’s job is in a small scale fight and it is not solo down and finish all the things!

And NO, your claims about how you can see 10+ people at the SAME time and understand what they are doing, while also focusing on your target does not save you. It is humanly not possible.

I think what some of the others might be trying to say (in a more aggressive manner :P) is that if you must see 10+ people at the same time a track them… you’re already in a horrible spot… get out! (you’re in the headbutt space… thieves don’t like being in the headbutt space…)

Instead of a thief that needs to get in melee range in order to deal close to the damage of kill-shot, Warrior do it from 1500 range. No need to get in melee range. No need to risk getting hit by knockbacks or AoE. It is NO RISK = HIGH REWARD for the warrior.

I don’t think it’s fair to compare the classes like that. Indeed at the start of a fight, a warrior standing at 1000+ range is “no risk + high reward”. it’s your job to turn it into “high risk + no reward”. By no means do i mean solo down and finish!! Pressure them into situations where “high risk + no reward” becomes true, same goes for other “no risk + high reward” builds (staff ele, power necros, power rangers, etc.) this is the thief’s job!

I’m not entirely sure why this thread got to 4 pages. Eating a killshot isn’t something that should happen that often, but if it does happen just accept that either they capitalized on your current situation distracting you or you made a mistake by not dodging or reflecting.

Pretty sure up until a 1v4 I am able to keep track of all the enemies abilities that have a medium → high cast time, and killshot definitely falls under this category. If you can observe the ks/rifle warrior the build is easy to counter by thieves.

Steal gives an excellent reflect on the warrior, which can be timed to really mess up the warrior if they don’t react in time (though they do have I believe signet of might to make their bullets unreflectable). Most thief builds have access to a blind field, which can be comboed with the reflect when the warrior’s zerker stance is down to neuter their damage through the blinding projectile.

If the OP is talking about getting ksed from 1500 range without noticing, then thats part of playing a zerker spec. If another zerker class gets the jump on you as a zerker (pretty much any class) you have to outplay the opponent to a certain extent to come out ahead. That is entirely WAI, and is part of the risk reward of zerker specs. In fact, thieves have a huge advantage in this category due to the access to stealth allowing them to easily get the jump on pretty much every class and use this to their advantage.

Lastly, if you’re complaining about lag messing you up, just don’t play until the lag is fixed or accept the fact you’re playing at a slight disadvantage.