Guild Wars 2

What you are talking about is not having situational awareness. You know what direction people will likely be coming from, it’s not hard to have that in the back of your mind while you are fighting/strafing around.

In sPvP, sure. WvW tends to be more dynamic, especially with culling.

Most thieves run a signet, same with all other professions, takes just targeting them for a second to know what they are.

A second is about twice as long as you have before you die.

It really doesn’t matter because any GC build will ruin your day in a 1vN fight so you need to assume that’s what you dealing with until you know for sure.

You can react to glass specs of any class — except a BS Thief.

I personally always turn my attention to Thieves when they show up for two obvious reasons. They are the highest, fastest burst risk and they are the easiest to kill and stomp.

Warriors are infinitely easier to kill and stomp. Thieves are among the more obnoxious classes.

AoE/Cleave will keep a GC thief downed and cripple their rezer at the same time.

That sounds a lot different from, say, all the other classes in the game.

If you are any good at FPS games

I’m relatively proficient at FPS games.

you should have no problem avoiding this, there is no need to dumb down GW2 for you and others like you for the same reason they will never remove head-shot damage from Counter Strike. The game requires twitch, sorry.

The only real mechanic that “requires twitch” in this entire game is to pre-emptively counter 1 build from 1 class.

I suppose the lesson here is that all players should roll Thieves. Sounds like balance to me.

EasymodeX.4062:

What you are talking about is not having situational awareness. You know what direction people will likely be coming from, it’s not hard to have that in the back of your mind while you are fighting/strafing around.

In sPvP, sure. WvW tends to be more dynamic, especially with culling.

Most thieves run a signet, same with all other professions, takes just targeting them for a second to know what they are.

A second is about twice as long as you have before you die.

It really doesn’t matter because any GC build will ruin your day in a 1vN fight so you need to assume that’s what you dealing with until you know for sure.

You can react to glass specs of any class — except a BS Thief.

I personally always turn my attention to Thieves when they show up for two obvious reasons. They are the highest, fastest burst risk and they are the easiest to kill and stomp.

Warriors are infinitely easier to kill and stomp. Thieves are among the more obnoxious classes.

AoE/Cleave will keep a GC thief downed and cripple their rezer at the same time.

That sounds a lot different from, say, all the other classes in the game.

If you are any good at FPS games

I’m relatively proficient at FPS games.

you should have no problem avoiding this, there is no need to dumb down GW2 for you and others like you for the same reason they will never remove head-shot damage from Counter Strike. The game requires twitch, sorry.

The only real mechanic that “requires twitch” in this entire game is to pre-emptively counter 1 build from 1 class.

I suppose the lesson here is that all players should roll Thieves. Sounds like balance to me.

This isn’t true, elementalist can also instantly kill people. (even faster then a thief can.)

Daecollo.9578:

This isn’t true, elementalist can also instantly kill people. (even faster then a thief can.)

Sounds cool; post the numbers (max glass on glass).

I know they can combo pretty high, but few run full Berserker so I can’t get a good handle on their maximum.

EasymodeX.4062:

Daecollo.9578:

This isn’t true, elementalist can also instantly kill people. (even faster then a thief can.)

Sounds cool; post the numbers (max glass on glass).

I know they can combo pretty high, but few run full Berserker so I can’t get a good handle on their maximum.

I will just let the video show you what elementalist can do.

EasymodeX.4062:

What you are talking about is not having situational awareness. You know what direction people will likely be coming from, it’s not hard to have that in the back of your mind while you are fighting/strafing around.

In sPvP, sure. WvW tends to be more dynamic, especially with culling.

Most thieves run a signet, same with all other professions, takes just targeting them for a second to know what they are.

A second is about twice as long as you have before you die.

It really doesn’t matter because any GC build will ruin your day in a 1vN fight so you need to assume that’s what you dealing with until you know for sure.

You can react to glass specs of any class — except a BS Thief.

I personally always turn my attention to Thieves when they show up for two obvious reasons. They are the highest, fastest burst risk and they are the easiest to kill and stomp.

Warriors are infinitely easier to kill and stomp. Thieves are among the more obnoxious classes.

AoE/Cleave will keep a GC thief downed and cripple their rezer at the same time.

That sounds a lot different from, say, all the other classes in the game.

If you are any good at FPS games

I’m relatively proficient at FPS games.

you should have no problem avoiding this, there is no need to dumb down GW2 for you and others like you for the same reason they will never remove head-shot damage from Counter Strike. The game requires twitch, sorry.

The only real mechanic that “requires twitch” in this entire game is to pre-emptively counter 1 build from 1 class.

I suppose the lesson here is that all players should roll Thieves. Sounds like balance to me.

I can’t tell if you don’t really play against good players or what. Any warrior who simply opens up with Frenzy+Bull+100b is a noob. Good ones are extremely hard to deal with and mix it up a lot more. Usually GS + S/Sh or Ax/Sh. Good warrios either count evades or Bullrush as soon as you start an evade (ermergerd takes twitch) which makes it impossible to avoid. Are you saying it doesn’t take twitch to avoid GS#3? That can down a thief in one shot if it hits more than once.

It takes twitch to avoid mesmer pulls (borderline impossible), hammer hits from both guards and wars. It takes twitch and positioning to avoid mesmer burst, a teleport+churning earth. It takes a ton of awareness to avoid killshot and is especially hard if you didn’t see them start it, just see it mid channel (we are talking about being previously distracted here right?). Tons more examples.. getting out of net+100nades.. it goes on and on.

Yes it takes twitch to avoid Thief burst but the difference between all of the above and Thief is all of those examples are just run of the mill abilities that once used hardly effect those profession’s fighting power. If you avoid thief burst, they are out of the fight for ~45 seconds or dead, their choice (unless there is high mobility or range on the enemy side then just dead). The benefit they get is the most condensed single target burst in the game but yes, it’s avoidable.

As a necro with 22k hp, I was hit for 20k damage, by a thief, in matter of 2 seconds. I was left with 2k health, confused as to what just happened, he stealthed and finished me off. Yes, there is something wrong with this. I don’t care how glass cannony you are, if there is no counter to this, it should be nerfed. Or, if nerfs aren’t planned, give my necro an irremovable debuff/condition that does 1k damage per second every time you move until you have stopped and not moved for 3 seconds. That sounds like a perfect thief counter to me.

Attila.6348:

As a necro with 22k hp, I was hit for 20k damage, by a thief, in matter of 2 seconds. I was left with 2k health, confused as to what just happened, he stealthed and finished me off. Yes, there is something wrong with this. I don’t care how glass cannony you are, if there is no counter to this, it should be nerfed. Or, if nerfs aren’t planned, give my necro an irremovable debuff/condition that does 1k damage per second every time you move until you have stopped and not moved for 3 seconds. That sounds like a perfect thief counter to me.

My necromancer has no problem killing thieves, how much toughness does your necromancer have?

In fact, I don’t think its possible for my necromancer to die to a thief as long as i’m paying attention.

I can’t tell if you don’t really play against good players or what. Any warrior who simply opens up with Frenzy+Bull+100b is a noob. Good ones are extremely hard to deal with and mix it up a lot more. Usually GS + S/Sh or Ax/Sh. Good warrios either count evades or Bullrush as soon as you start an evade (ermergerd takes twitch) which makes it impossible to avoid.

Oh please. You can use any number of effects to still counter that. You can:

1. Steal to another target.
2. Shadow return off Sword2 or the utility.
3. Shadowstep with the utility.
4. Death Lotus or Flanking Strike if it’s an immob / not BR. You could alternatively straight up DL/FS the Bull’s Rush if it’s not Frenzied.
5. Blind the BR.

Pretty sure you can Withdraw/RFI the combo, but not 100% on that.

I’ve actually spent quite a few hours in sPvP on a glass GS Warrior (it’s hilarious to play if nothing else), so I’m fully aware of the timing and how to nail people with BR even when they’re making an effort not to die. Next you’re going to tell me to force a cooldown with Rush. Jfc sit down, son.

In any case, on my Thief I can literally ignore a Warrior for half the kitten fight with random cooldowns.

The difference is that you are reacting to the Warrior. A Thief kills you before pure reaction is possible. Pre-action becomes mandatory, rather than value added.

CND-Mug-BS is basically the only class / attack sequence in the game that fits that profile.

It takes twitch to avoid mesmer pulls (borderline impossible),

Luckily those don’t actually deal >15k damage, and you can use instant abilities out of the knockdown.

hammer hits from both guards and wars.

You are reaching really, really deep.

It takes twitch and positioning to avoid mesmer burst,

Good thing you can see it coming 4-7 seconds in advance.

a teleport+churning earth.

1.5s in advance.

Yes it takes twitch to avoid Thief burst but the difference between all of the above and Thief is all of those examples

Is that you have 0.5s to react to the Thief. You get 1.5-6 seconds to react to all the other nasties in this game.

Not only that, in more dynamic situations such as WvW, you actually have to identify the “add” as a Thief (within 0.25s).

I’ve said it before: there’s not much that needs to be changed. All ANet needs to do is to:

1. Nerf the damage of Mug (I recommend halving the direct damage and adding condition damage to make it more flexible for more builds).
2. Make the CND damage instant rather than delayed, with the stealth taking effect after the cast. E.g. “dagger and cloak”.
3. Increase the cast time of BS by 0.25s [optional].

The second item is the more important part. I include #1 because Mug is silly in the current design and it sucks balls in my heavy condition damage builds. #3 combos with #2 if additional time is necessary.

The gist is that the change makes the CND-Mug-BS combo something that is more reasonable to react to if you are, in fact, paying attention and see it coming.

EasymodeX.4062:

I can’t tell if you don’t really play against good players or what. Any warrior who simply opens up with Frenzy+Bull+100b is a noob. Good ones are extremely hard to deal with and mix it up a lot more. Usually GS + S/Sh or Ax/Sh. Good warrios either count evades or Bullrush as soon as you start an evade (ermergerd takes twitch) which makes it impossible to avoid.

Oh please. You can use any number of effects to still counter that. You can:

1. Steal to another target.
2. Shadow return off Sword2 or the utility.
3. Shadowstep with the utility.
4. Death Lotus or Flanking Strike if it’s an immob / not BR. You could alternatively straight up DL/FS the Bull’s Rush if it’s not Frenzied.
5. Blind the BR.

Pretty sure you can Withdraw/RFI the combo, but not 100% on that.

I’ve actually spent quite a few hours in sPvP on a glass GS Warrior (it’s hilarious to play if nothing else), so I’m fully aware of the timing and how to nail people with BR even when they’re making an effort not to die. Next you’re going to tell me to force a cooldown with Rush. Jfc sit down, son.

In any case, on my Thief I can literally ignore a Warrior for half the kitten fight with random cooldowns.

The difference is that you are reacting to the Warrior. A Thief kills you before pure reaction is possible. Pre-action becomes mandatory, rather than value added.

CND-Mug-BS is basically the only class / attack sequence in the game that fits that profile.

It takes twitch to avoid mesmer pulls (borderline impossible),

Luckily those don’t actually deal >15k damage, and you can use instant abilities out of the knockdown.

hammer hits from both guards and wars.

You are reaching really, really deep.

It takes twitch and positioning to avoid mesmer burst,

Good thing you can see it coming 4-7 seconds in advance.

a teleport+churning earth.

1.5s in advance.

Yes it takes twitch to avoid Thief burst but the difference between all of the above and Thief is all of those examples

Is that you have 0.5s to react to the Thief. You get 1.5-6 seconds to react to all the other nasties in this game.

Not only that, in more dynamic situations such as WvW, you actually have to identify the “add” as a Thief (within 0.25s).

I’ve said it before: there’s not much that needs to be changed. All ANet needs to do is to:

1. Nerf the damage of Mug (I recommend halving the direct damage and adding condition damage to make it more flexible for more builds).
2. Make the CND damage instant rather than delayed, with the stealth taking effect after the cast. E.g. “dagger and cloak”.
3. Increase the cast time of BS by 0.25s [optional].

1. is the more important part. I include #1 because Mug is silly in the current design and it sucks balls in my heavy condition damage builds. #3 combos with #2 if additional time is necessary.

The gist is that the change makes the CND-Mug-BS combo something that is more reasonable to react to if you are, in fact, paying attention and see it coming.

Eh, you didn’t watch that elementalist video where he was killing people faster then a thief could?

EasymodeX.4062:

A Thief kills you before pure reaction is possible.

Here is the crux of the problem. This statement is personal to you. They kill you before reaction is possible for you. Not for me, not for many others. I know it’s hard, but not everyone is equal and Anet does not need to balance for the lowest common denominator.

Daecollo.9578:

Attila.6348:

As a necro with 22k hp, I was hit for 20k damage, by a thief, in matter of 2 seconds. I was left with 2k health, confused as to what just happened, he stealthed and finished me off. Yes, there is something wrong with this. I don’t care how glass cannony you are, if there is no counter to this, it should be nerfed. Or, if nerfs aren’t planned, give my necro an irremovable debuff/condition that does 1k damage per second every time you move until you have stopped and not moved for 3 seconds. That sounds like a perfect thief counter to me.

My necromancer has no problem killing thieves, how much toughness does your necromancer have?

In fact, I don’t think its possible for my necromancer to die to a thief as long as i’m paying attention.

I forgot to mention that I didn’t even see the thief. This wasn’t a duel. This was me running towards an herb I wanted to pick, thief pops out of stealth, pulls Steal, Backstab, and Cloak and Dagger, and by the time my heal skill hits 100%, I’m dead.

Attila.6348:

Daecollo.9578:

Attila.6348:

As a necro with 22k hp, I was hit for 20k damage, by a thief, in matter of 2 seconds. I was left with 2k health, confused as to what just happened, he stealthed and finished me off. Yes, there is something wrong with this. I don’t care how glass cannony you are, if there is no counter to this, it should be nerfed. Or, if nerfs aren’t planned, give my necro an irremovable debuff/condition that does 1k damage per second every time you move until you have stopped and not moved for 3 seconds. That sounds like a perfect thief counter to me.

My necromancer has no problem killing thieves, how much toughness does your necromancer have?

In fact, I don’t think its possible for my necromancer to die to a thief as long as i’m paying attention.

I forgot to mention that I didn’t even see the thief. This wasn’t a duel. This was me running towards an herb I wanted to pick, thief pops out of stealth, pulls Steal, Backstab, and Cloak and Dagger, and by the time my heal skill hits 100%, I’m dead.

Can I see a list of your traits please?
I would also like to know how much toughness you have.

I mean, it seems like you weren’t paying attention either, which isn’t the thieves fault.

Daecollo.9578:

Eh, you didn’t watch that elementalist video where he was killing people faster then a thief could?

Actually no, because I don’t watch youtube videos at work, usually.

EasymodeX.4062:

Daecollo.9578:

Eh, you didn’t watch that elementalist video where he was killing people faster then a thief could?

Actually no, because I don’t watch youtube videos at work, usually.

Uh, then can you wait until you put down comments saying they can’t and argue with people about it? it makes your arguments one sided if you don’t even look at the evidence.

Stiv.1820:

EasymodeX.4062:

A Thief kills you before pure reaction is possible.

Here is the crux of the problem. This statement is personal to you. They kill you before reaction is possible for you. Not for me, not for many others. I know it’s hard, but not everyone is equal and Anet does not need to balance for the lowest common denominator.

Hehe lowest common denominator hehe.

You’re the one that has problems with Hundred Blades.

I’ve died to it maybe twice since this game went open beta.

Crux of the problem is that you have a cognitive dissonance where you perceive a Thief’s 0.5s burst to be equivalent to another class’s 3.5 second burst.

You perceive a Warrior’s 1.75s Kill Shot, or almost 1s Bull’s Rush + 3.5s HB, or a Mesmer’s 0.75s MB + 0.75s iB + instant F3 + 0.25 MI + instant dodge + instant F1 …

You perceive these 1.75 – 4.5s sequences to be “as fast” as your own 0.5-0.75s sequence.

This error in perception is personal to you, although you share it with a lot of Thieves.

Daecollo.9578:

Attila.6348:

Daecollo.9578:

Attila.6348:

As a necro with 22k hp, I was hit for 20k damage, by a thief, in matter of 2 seconds. I was left with 2k health, confused as to what just happened, he stealthed and finished me off. Yes, there is something wrong with this. I don’t care how glass cannony you are, if there is no counter to this, it should be nerfed. Or, if nerfs aren’t planned, give my necro an irremovable debuff/condition that does 1k damage per second every time you move until you have stopped and not moved for 3 seconds. That sounds like a perfect thief counter to me.

My necromancer has no problem killing thieves, how much toughness does your necromancer have?

In fact, I don’t think its possible for my necromancer to die to a thief as long as i’m paying attention.

I forgot to mention that I didn’t even see the thief. This wasn’t a duel. This was me running towards an herb I wanted to pick, thief pops out of stealth, pulls Steal, Backstab, and Cloak and Dagger, and by the time my heal skill hits 100%, I’m dead.

Can I see a list of your traits please?
I would also like to know how much toughness you have.

I mean, it seems like you weren’t paying attention either, which isn’t the thieves fault.

Considering I’m a condition/power Necro, my toughness is at 1041. And I always pay attention in WvW, but I was jumped. As in, I didn’t see him in front of me or on the side.

Attila.6348:

Daecollo.9578:

Attila.6348:

Daecollo.9578:

Attila.6348:

As a necro with 22k hp, I was hit for 20k damage, by a thief, in matter of 2 seconds. I was left with 2k health, confused as to what just happened, he stealthed and finished me off. Yes, there is something wrong with this. I don’t care how glass cannony you are, if there is no counter to this, it should be nerfed. Or, if nerfs aren’t planned, give my necro an irremovable debuff/condition that does 1k damage per second every time you move until you have stopped and not moved for 3 seconds. That sounds like a perfect thief counter to me.

My necromancer has no problem killing thieves, how much toughness does your necromancer have?

In fact, I don’t think its possible for my necromancer to die to a thief as long as i’m paying attention.

I forgot to mention that I didn’t even see the thief. This wasn’t a duel. This was me running towards an herb I wanted to pick, thief pops out of stealth, pulls Steal, Backstab, and Cloak and Dagger, and by the time my heal skill hits 100%, I’m dead.

Can I see a list of your traits please?
I would also like to know how much toughness you have.

I mean, it seems like you weren’t paying attention either, which isn’t the thieves fault.

Considering I’m a condition/power Necro, my toughness is at 1041. And I always pay attention in WvW, but I was jumped. As in, I didn’t see him in front of me or on the side.

You should focus on Condition damage or Power, not both. Your a necromancer, so get some toughness.

My necromancer has 1600 toughness, and an additional 400 when i’m paying attention, and I get 33% damage reduction when my health falls below 50% (when thieves do more damage.) thanks to my spec, I have 0 issues handling thieves damage.

With my staff marks, I can lay them under my feet, so if a thief DOES attack me, he gets immediately hit with 2-3 marks, I also create a mark when I dodge as well, making him eat even more damage, and my marks are unblockable as well.

A thief MUST be in melee range to hurt you significantly, so just lay them under your feet and your pretty much un-killable.

I am more afraid of thieves on my own thief then my necromancer, I pretty much turn thieves into a joke.

Auesis.7301:

I genuinely don’t understand

Just commenting on the reaction time post. Anticipation is generally a better approach anyway and if you know what to expect you can skip the evaluation and decision making process.

Daecollo.9578:

EasymodeX.4062:

Daecollo.9578:

Eh, you didn’t watch that elementalist video where he was killing people faster then a thief could?

Actually no, because I don’t watch youtube videos at work, usually.

Uh, then can you wait until you put down comments saying they can’t and argue with people about it? it makes your arguments one sided if you don’t even look at the evidence.

So, after taking a look at the video, it appears that the Ele is getting good hits with with LS and RTL, basically a 10k combo whose cast time is basically dependent on how far he is (RTL travel time at 600 units per second).

The base damages for those two abilities are 403 and 336. The base damage for CND, Mug, and BS are 504, 504, and 403 (806), respectively.

So, the Ele basically does significantly less damage than a Thief (note: it’s hard to see, but it seems like he’s getting up to 13k spikes when you add in Sigil of Air and so on, where a Thief would be combo’ing for >20k — should be up to 25k or so — on a similar upleveled glass target), and takes a variable amount of time up to 2.0s to achieve that.

The Thief takes 0.75 total time to achieve more damage. Luckily, the Ele can recast LS pretty quickly.

You’re not really helping your case.

Edit: Next up someone is going to refer to the power Necro video with “unstoppable 15k bursts” that take 5 seconds to set up. And yet nothing will change.

EasymodeX.4062:

Daecollo.9578:

EasymodeX.4062:

Daecollo.9578:

Eh, you didn’t watch that elementalist video where he was killing people faster then a thief could?

Actually no, because I don’t watch youtube videos at work, usually.

Uh, then can you wait until you put down comments saying they can’t and argue with people about it? it makes your arguments one sided if you don’t even look at the evidence.

So, after taking a look at the video, it appears that the Ele is getting good hits with with LS and RTL, basically a 10k combo whose cast time is basically dependent on how far he is (RTL travel time at 600 units per second).

The base damages for those two abilities are 403 and 336. The base damage for CND, Mug, and BS are 504, 504, and 403 (806), respectively.

So, the Ele basically does significantly less damage than a Thief (note: it’s hard to see, but it seems like he’s getting up to 13k spikes when you add in Sigil of Air and so on, where a Thief would be combo’ing for >20k — should be up to 25k or so — on a similar upleveled glass target), and takes a variable amount of time up to 2.0s to achieve that.

The Thief takes 0.75 total time to achieve more damage. Luckily, the Ele can recast LS pretty quickly.

You’re not really helping your case.

Yes, but Cloak and Dagger and Mug are 60% critical chance, while his combo is always 100% critical chance, therefore Cloak and Dagger has a chance to hit significantly less then his combo.

Your not helping your case.

His utility makes his next 5 hits critical, nomatter what, so he can take Valkyrie gear and be fine, while a thief must give up all his gear for zerkers and rely on chance to finish off an opponent.

he can also take 10 points in Elemental Attunement and get protection for when he goes into earth.

His combo doesn’t change much, and he retains all that damage easilly.

A thief can get 20% damage under 50% health, but he must sacrifice 100% critical chance while in stealth to get this trait, so therefore his Cloak and Dagger, Mug and Backstab combo all require a CHANCE to critical hit.

A thief can do higher damage, but he has to rely on luck to do so, while a elementalist does not.

Yes, but Cloak and Dagger and Mug are 60% critical chance, while his combo is always 100% critical chance, therefore Cloak and Dagger has a chance to hit significantly less then his combo.

Zzzz 15% damage for the next 5 attacks.

As a simple arithmetic exercise: 3113 > 1850.

His combo doesn’t change much, and he retains all that damage easilly.

All the “half a Thief’s damage”, ok.

A thief can get 20% damage under 50% health, but he must sacrifice 100% critical chance while in stealth to get this trait, so therefore his Cloak and Dagger, Mug and Backstab combo all require a CHANCE to critical hit.

Ok and?

You are throwing out a lot of random traits and effects — much like Stiv trying so hard to fabricate potential scenarios where other classes may have almost as much damage in almost as little time (but not really) compared to Thieves.

Are you going to actually put those together into a rational argument to somehow demonstrate that the Ele can output more than half the damage a Thief can in less than twice the timeframe?

Edit:

Anyways, I’m out. This discussion is the same as the last 50 iterations of “lol CND Mug BS” — Thieves fabricate a ton of excuses how significantly more damage in significantly less time is similar to other classes, with random tangents about how other classes should by obligated to run with 2k Toughness / more than 3.1k armor to avoid instant death, etc.

Despite the fact that the numbers are pretty blatantly clear.

Things don’t really change much I guess. Shrug.

EasymodeX.4062:

Yes, but Cloak and Dagger and Mug are 60% critical chance, while his combo is always 100% critical chance, therefore Cloak and Dagger has a chance to hit significantly less then his combo.

Zzzz 15% damage for the next 5 attacks.

As a simple arithmetic exercise: 3113 > 1850.

His combo doesn’t change much, and he retains all that damage easilly.

All the “half a Thief’s damage”, ok.

A thief can get 20% damage under 50% health, but he must sacrifice 100% critical chance while in stealth to get this trait, so therefore his Cloak and Dagger, Mug and Backstab combo all require a CHANCE to critical hit.

Ok and?

You are throwing out a lot of random traits and effects — much like Stiv trying so hard to fabricate potential scenarios where other classes may have almost as much damage in almost as little time (but not really) compared to Thieves.

Are you going to actually put those together into a rational argument to somehow demonstrate that the Ele can output more than half the damage a Thief can in less than twice the timeframe?

Lets compare abilities.
Mug: 504 base damage.
Cloak and Dagger: 504
Backstab: 806 (MUST take time to get behind him.)
Lightning Strike: 403 damage. (about a 40% chance to apply to this combo.)

Total damage if everything goes well: 2217
Chance of everything going well: About 40%, Thieves only have a Critical Chance of 60% if they stack it.

Arcane Power: 0 Damage, makes next 5 attacks critical.
Ride the Lightning: 336 Damage.
Updraft: Knocking them down.
Arcane Blast: 470 Damage. (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Arcane Wave: 470 Damage. (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Lightning Strike: 403 Damage (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Lightning Strike: 403 Damage (20% base damage for knocking them down.) (sigil of air.) (about a 80% chance to apply to this combo.)

Total damage if everything goes well: 2432.
Chance of everything working properly: about 95%, You have a Guarenteed chance to critical on all 5 attacks, and sigil of air, because of how many attacks your doing at once, has a very high chance to proc off any attack.

So Elementalist’s combo actually does more damage then thieves, and it is easier to pull off, because you don’t need to be behind the target to do it.

Attila.6348:

Daecollo.9578:

Attila.6348:

Daecollo.9578:

Attila.6348:

As a necro with 22k hp, I was hit for 20k damage, by a thief, in matter of 2 seconds. I was left with 2k health, confused as to what just happened, he stealthed and finished me off. Yes, there is something wrong with this. I don’t care how glass cannony you are, if there is no counter to this, it should be nerfed. Or, if nerfs aren’t planned, give my necro an irremovable debuff/condition that does 1k damage per second every time you move until you have stopped and not moved for 3 seconds. That sounds like a perfect thief counter to me.

My necromancer has no problem killing thieves, how much toughness does your necromancer have?

In fact, I don’t think its possible for my necromancer to die to a thief as long as i’m paying attention.

I forgot to mention that I didn’t even see the thief. This wasn’t a duel. This was me running towards an herb I wanted to pick, thief pops out of stealth, pulls Steal, Backstab, and Cloak and Dagger, and by the time my heal skill hits 100%, I’m dead.

Can I see a list of your traits please?
I would also like to know how much toughness you have.

I mean, it seems like you weren’t paying attention either, which isn’t the thieves fault.

Considering I’m a condition/power Necro, my toughness is at 1041. And I always pay attention in WvW, but I was jumped. As in, I didn’t see him in front of me or on the side.

I play a necro as well and think that out of all the classes the necro is really good for countering the thief backstab burst – but you do have to be quick. If you don’t see him coming at all you are at a severe disadvantage – but it’s going to be rare that you are full HP and his combo completely kills you. Ways to counter thief on necro:

1) Dodge – requires you seeing them coming
2) Well of Darkness – requires you seeing them coming
3) Spectral stun break
4) Death shroud – requires you to have LF
5) Some good traits for this too like the one that fears when you are disabled and spectral armor at 50% health

All that said, you still have to be on top of things to survive the thief burst – but each class has their strengths and weaknesses and I think the thief burst is not really so far out of balance in the grand scheme of things.. just my opinion though – I know plenty disagreee.

Leadfoot.9071:

Attila.6348:

Daecollo.9578:

Attila.6348:

Daecollo.9578:

Attila.6348:

As a necro with 22k hp, I was hit for 20k damage, by a thief, in matter of 2 seconds. I was left with 2k health, confused as to what just happened, he stealthed and finished me off. Yes, there is something wrong with this. I don’t care how glass cannony you are, if there is no counter to this, it should be nerfed. Or, if nerfs aren’t planned, give my necro an irremovable debuff/condition that does 1k damage per second every time you move until you have stopped and not moved for 3 seconds. That sounds like a perfect thief counter to me.

My necromancer has no problem killing thieves, how much toughness does your necromancer have?

In fact, I don’t think its possible for my necromancer to die to a thief as long as i’m paying attention.

I forgot to mention that I didn’t even see the thief. This wasn’t a duel. This was me running towards an herb I wanted to pick, thief pops out of stealth, pulls Steal, Backstab, and Cloak and Dagger, and by the time my heal skill hits 100%, I’m dead.

Can I see a list of your traits please?
I would also like to know how much toughness you have.

I mean, it seems like you weren’t paying attention either, which isn’t the thieves fault.

Considering I’m a condition/power Necro, my toughness is at 1041. And I always pay attention in WvW, but I was jumped. As in, I didn’t see him in front of me or on the side.

I play a necro as well and think that out of all the classes the necro is really good for countering the thief backstab burst – but you do have to be quick. If you don’t see him coming at all you are at a severe disadvantage – but it’s going to be rare that you are full HP and his combo completely kills you. Ways to counter thief on necro:

1) Dodge – requires you seeing them coming
2) Well of Darkness – requires you seeing them coming
3) Spectral stun break
4) Death shroud – requires you to have LF
5) Some good traits for this too like the one that fears when you are disabled and spectral armor at 50% health

All that said, you still have to be on top of things to survive the thief burst – but each class has their strengths and weaknesses and I think the thief burst is not really so far out of balance in the grand scheme of things.. just my opinion though – I know plenty disagreee.

I play both thief and necro, if my necro isn’t paying attention, he deserves to get killed, but I take traits that makes that combo almost impossible to kill me.

If you played both classes, you would probably see what i’m talking about, Thief is actually underpowered when it comes to most things, as well as necromancer.

I don’t think updraft counts as knockdown, rather a blowout like the big explosions engies make. I’ve tested this in the mists – earthquake counts but not updraft.

Cirax.9231:

I don’t think updraft counts as knockdown, rather a blowout like the big explosions engies make. I’ve tested this in the mists – earthquake counts but not updraft.

Oh, never played Ele, but I played warrior and blowouts still affect traits that increase damage.

I think hes actually knocking them down with his form.

And if that IS the case, then the backstab/ele combo do about the same damage.

Lets compare abilities.
Mug: 504 base damage.
Cloak and Dagger: 504
Backstab: 806 (MUST take time to get behind him.)
Lightning Strike: 403 damage. (about a 40% chance to apply to this combo.)
Total damage if everything goes well: 2217

Bonus 15% on all the attacks. Bonus tick of poison. Three stacks of Vuln. Extra 10 Might [14%].

(504 + 504) * (1 + .6 * 1.1) * 1. * 1.15 * 1.14 + (806 + 403) * (1 + .6 * 1.1) * 1.03 * 1.35 * 1.14

= 5375 avg

Edit: I forgot to throw in the poison. Ohwell.

Arcane Power: 0 Damage, makes next 5 attacks critical.
Ride the Lightning: 336 Damage.
Updraft: Knocking them down.
Arcane Blast: 470 Damage. (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Arcane Wave: 470 Damage. (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Lightning Strike: 403 Damage (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Lightning Strike: 403 Damage (20% base damage for knocking them down.) (sigil of air.) (about a 80% chance to apply to this combo.)
Total damage if everything goes well: 2432.

336
363
628
403
403

(336) * (1 + 1.1) * 1 + (363 + 628 + 403 + 403) * (1 + 1.1) * 1.2

= 5234

Le shocke. Almost as much. I wonder if the autocrit on BS would be better:

(504 + 504) * (1 + .6 * 1.1) * 1 * 1.15 * 1.14 + (403) * (1 + .6 * 1.1) * 1.03 * 1.15 * 1.14 + 806 * (1 + 1.1) * 1.03 * 1.15 * 1.14

= 5357

Not much difference I guess.

Still, not bad all things considered.

Now if RTL didn’t have a travel time and a hugeass obvious animation, combined with the loud sound effect, you’d have a real competitor for CND Mug BS.

Edit:

Although the Norn elite stealth action in the video made me laugh my kitten off.

EasymodeX.4062:

Ok and?

He is saying the ele can have a 100% crit on those 403 and 336 base skills, while a thief has around a 60% crit chance on base 503 and 403 (806) skills. With sufficient +crit damage crit can hit really hard.

… how significantly more damage in significantly less time …

The actual situation, the amount of health, skills on cooldown, you had just before you got backstabbed, lightning smitten or hundred bladed make the real difference.

frans.8092:

He is saying the ele can have a 100% crit on those 403 and 336 base skills, while a thief has around a 60% crit chance on base 503 and 403 (806) skills. With sufficient +crit damage crit can hit really hard.

Thieves can autocrit from stealth. Anyone can autocrit on a weapon swap.

Random mechanics insertions do not an argument make.

Throwing dots on a board doesn’t mean much unless you connect them.

You have to give up the 20% Damage under 50% health for that though, its kind of a toss up.

EasymodeX.4062:

Lets compare abilities.
Mug: 504 base damage.
Cloak and Dagger: 504
Backstab: 806 (MUST take time to get behind him.)
Lightning Strike: 403 damage. (about a 40% chance to apply to this combo.)
Total damage if everything goes well: 2217

Bonus 15% on all the attacks. Bonus tick of poison. Three stacks of Vuln. Extra 10 Might [14%].

(504 + 504) * (1 + .6 * 1.1) * 1. * 1.15 * 1.14 + (806 + 403) * (1 + .6 * 1.1) * 1.03 * 1.35 * 1.14

= 5375 avg

Edit: I forgot to throw in the poison. Ohwell.

Arcane Power: 0 Damage, makes next 5 attacks critical.
Ride the Lightning: 336 Damage.
Updraft: Knocking them down.
Arcane Blast: 470 Damage. (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Arcane Wave: 470 Damage. (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Lightning Strike: 403 Damage (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Lightning Strike: 403 Damage (20% base damage for knocking them down.) (sigil of air.) (about a 80% chance to apply to this combo.)
Total damage if everything goes well: 2432.

336
363
628
403
403

(336) * (1 + 1.1) * 1 + (363 + 628 + 403 + 403) * (1 + 1.1) * 1.2

= 5234

Le shocke. Almost as much. I wonder if the autocrit on BS would be better:

(504 + 504) * (1 + .6 * 1.1) * 1 * 1.15 * 1.14 + (403) * (1 + .6 * 1.1) * 1.03 * 1.15 * 1.14 + 806 * (1 + 1.1) * 1.03 * 1.15 * 1.14

= 5357

Not much difference I guess.

Still, not bad all things considered.

Now if RTL didn’t have a travel time and a hugeass obvious animation, combined with the loud sound effect, you’d have a real competitor for CND Mug BS.

Edit:

Although the Norn elite stealth action in the video made me laugh my kitten off.

Eh? Stealth has an animation and a sound effect as well though if you’ve seen it tons of times, since I played it, I can actually notice the shadowstep sound and react subconciously.

Elementalist usually catches me by suprise more, but I don’t play the class.

At least you take the time to do the math though.

To all the thieves there, how do you against warriors like me (sword/shield | axe/axe) with retaliate and shield block on your opener? Most times ive been jumped they have run off I’m wondering what would happen if they stayed on me more. (Disclaimer, im by no means the best player, I get by)

knyy.6427:

Daendur.2357:

knyy.6427:

The backstab build is mostly a one shot kill every 45s.
Mug+CnD+backstab ~ 4000+6000+10000 in wvw to lvl 80.
Only to bunkers the damage is significant lower, like 2000+4000+7000.
But after the burst just press 2 for heartseeker.
This build is too op, and d/p permastealth is more than op.

And come on seriously? You cant compare backstab to killshot or churning earth for very obvious reasons like cast time,CD and animations.

The backstab build is mostly a one shot kill every 45s on bad players.
Mug+CnD+backstab ~ 4000+6000+10000 in wvw to lvl 80 if they crit and your opponent does nothing (no blind, no dodge, no stun etc etc).
Only to bunkers, and people with fingers, the damage is significant lower, like 2000+4000+7000, or 2000+0+0.
But after the burst just press 2 for heartseeker especially if your opponent is in block or immune.

ok, I fixed it for you.

kill shot in the crowd can be quite unnoticed and usually eles using churning earth teleport on the target to be sure to hit him.

i use basilisk venom in my build and stealth has 900 range. so they dont know the exact time i hit them and if i do, they cant use a stun break fast enough (nobody can) and i can land my full burst.

I do…

I play a tanky condition thief, and those pesky D/D thieves try to backstab me all the time. Seeing as I’m traited for stealth on steal, and my reaction time, I usually end up destroying the little rats

In fact, the last time I got killed by a D/D thief was a month and a half ago, in the middle of a zerg fight.

Never lost a 1v1 to a GC D/D thief. There is this D/P thief permastealth thief I played in which neither of us could kill each other, however.

EasymodeX.4062:

Stiv.1820:

EasymodeX.4062:

A Thief kills you before pure reaction is possible.

Here is the crux of the problem. This statement is personal to you. They kill you before reaction is possible for you. Not for me, not for many others. I know it’s hard, but not everyone is equal and Anet does not need to balance for the lowest common denominator.

Hehe lowest common denominator hehe.

You’re the one that has problems with Hundred Blades.

I’ve died to it maybe twice since this game went open beta.

Crux of the problem is that you have a cognitive dissonance where you perceive a Thief’s 0.5s burst to be equivalent to another class’s 3.5 second burst.

You perceive a Warrior’s 1.75s Kill Shot, or almost 1s Bull’s Rush + 3.5s HB, or a Mesmer’s 0.75s MB + 0.75s iB + instant F3 + 0.25 MI + instant dodge + instant F1 …

You perceive these 1.75 – 4.5s sequences to be “as fast” as your own 0.5-0.75s sequence.

This error in perception is personal to you, although you share it with a lot of Thieves.

I never said I have a problem with it. Utilities can be used by all professions to get out of these things. Bads have problems with it the same as they have problems with thief burst. It’s just differing levels of bads. Some can handle .5 sec reactions, some can handle 1 sec reactions, some can handle all. You happen to be somewhere in the middle therefore you perceive anything beyond your reaction time as OP. When in reality you are just a tad slow.

Half the burst you mentioned is AoE, thief is single target. Hundred blades happens to be one of the best “stomping” abilities in the game. Mesmer burst can down many players at once for the price f their 1 second longer burst, they also can do it twice as often while having much more tank as a GC spec. It’s called balance.

Downed state makes it balanced

Lets compare abilities.
Mug: 504 base damage.
Cloak and Dagger: 504
Backstab: 806 (MUST take time to get behind him.)
Lightning Strike: 403 damage. (about a 40% chance to apply to this combo.)

Total damage if everything goes well: 2217
Chance of everything going well: About 40%, Thieves only have a Critical Chance of 60% if they stack it.

Arcane Power: 0 Damage, makes next 5 attacks critical.
Ride the Lightning: 336 Damage.
Updraft: Knocking them down.
Arcane Blast: 470 Damage. (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Arcane Wave: 470 Damage. (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Lightning Strike: 403 Damage (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Lightning Strike: 403 Damage (20% base damage for knocking them down.) (sigil of air.) (about a 80% chance to apply to this combo.)

Total damage if everything goes well: 2432.
Chance of everything working properly: about 95%, You have a Guarenteed chance to critical on all 5 attacks, and sigil of air, because of how many attacks your doing at once, has a very high chance to proc off any attack.

You seem to ignore the fact that the elementalist needs all of his utility skills and his best movement skill to pull this off where the thief still got all 3 utilities and enough initiative to escape.

The ele has to kill with this combo or he is just dead, the thief stealths away.

Iavra.8510:

Lets compare abilities.
Mug: 504 base damage.
Cloak and Dagger: 504
Backstab: 806 (MUST take time to get behind him.)
Lightning Strike: 403 damage. (about a 40% chance to apply to this combo.)

Total damage if everything goes well: 2217
Chance of everything going well: About 40%, Thieves only have a Critical Chance of 60% if they stack it.

Arcane Power: 0 Damage, makes next 5 attacks critical.
Ride the Lightning: 336 Damage.
Updraft: Knocking them down.
Arcane Blast: 470 Damage. (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Arcane Wave: 470 Damage. (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Lightning Strike: 403 Damage (20% base damage for knocking them down.)
Lightning Strike: 403 Damage (20% base damage for knocking them down.) (sigil of air.) (about a 80% chance to apply to this combo.)

Total damage if everything goes well: 2432.
Chance of everything working properly: about 95%, You have a Guarenteed chance to critical on all 5 attacks, and sigil of air, because of how many attacks your doing at once, has a very high chance to proc off any attack.

You seem to ignore the fact that the elementalist needs all of his utility skills and his best movement skill to pull this off where the thief still got all 3 utilities and enough initiative to escape.

The ele has to kill with this combo or he is just dead, the thief stealths away.

A thief must do the same, and explain how you can “stealth away?” Thieves do not have an ability that teleports and stealths them.

An Elementalist can’t switch to fire attunement and burning speed away?

This argument isn’t about getting away, its about “BURST.” people don’t care if the thief can get away or not, they don’t want insta-killed.

This is a strawman argument, and i’m afraid with your logic, there is no way I can win.

Thief nerfs don’t apply to WvW so CnD hit still has hard as before the nerf.
WvW isn’t supposed to be balanced anyways.

A thief must do the same, and explain how you can “stealth away?” Thieves do not have an ability that teleports and stealths them.

Come on…he has all 3 utility skills off CD after executing your combo.

An Elementalist can’t switch to fire attunement and burning speed away?

No, because it never takes him far enough away. And being visible with all utility skills + RtL on CD, he just dies.

This argument isn’t about getting away, its about “BURST.” people don’t care if the thief can get away or not, they don’t want insta-killed.

Exactly, but burst is only half the problems people have with the thief.

Iavra.8510:

A thief must do the same, and explain how you can “stealth away?” Thieves do not have an ability that teleports and stealths them.

Come on…he has all 3 utility skills off CD after executing your combo.

An Elementalist can’t switch to fire attunement and burning speed away?

No, because it never takes him far enough away. And being visible with all utility skills + RtL on CD, he just dies.

This argument isn’t about getting away, its about “BURST.” people don’t care if the thief can get away or not, they don’t want insta-killed.

Exactly, but burst is only half the problems people have with the thief.

Please read the title of the thread.

As cute as these numbers are, you forgot 10% bonus damage for being attuned to air, and 5% bonus damage for being within melee range which occurs after Ride the Lightning, which applies to it, and the 30% chance on crit to cause burning, which results in a 10% additional bonus to damage (+5% from a minor and a major talent.)

That’s another 15% guaranteed, with 10% more on chance.

Guaranteed crit on attacks along with all that bonus damage and thieves are the ones who can kill you before you react? Hahahaha.

Updraft comin’ ta take the wind out of your argument.

Please read the title of the thread.

I did, more than once to be clear. But if those two classes are capable of executing a combo that damaging in about the same time you also have to consider other factors trying to find the…um…“better” class.

The elementalist in your example would probably suck in fights against more than 1 opponents and if his opponent dodges RtL whereas the thief only loses his steal and a bit of initiative.

Iavra.8510:

Please read the title of the thread.

I did, more than once to be clear. But if those two classes are capable of executing a combo that damaging in about the same time you also have to consider other factors trying to find the…um…“better” class.

The elementalist in your example would probably suck in fights against more than 1 opponents and if his opponent dodges RtL whereas the thief only loses his steal and a bit of initiative.

You really need to watch the video that was linked. That elementalist was clearly having no trouble running into big groups and taking out multiple targets.

Willfully ignoring the evidence and pretending it doesn’t exist won’t help your argument.

Also, updraft knocks you up, taking away your ability to dodge. So really, no, you’re wrong.

Yuujin.1067:

Iavra.8510:

Please read the title of the thread.

I did, more than once to be clear. But if those two classes are capable of executing a combo that damaging in about the same time you also have to consider other factors trying to find the…um…“better” class.

The elementalist in your example would probably suck in fights against more than 1 opponents and if his opponent dodges RtL whereas the thief only loses his steal and a bit of initiative.

You really need to watch the video that was linked. That elementalist was clearly having no trouble running into big groups and taking out multiple targets.

Willfully ignoring the evidence and pretending it doesn’t exist won’t help your argument.

Also, updraft knocks you up, taking away your ability to dodge. So really, no, you’re wrong.

Everytime he charges into a group the current scene ends and he isn’t even shown finishing his target. I guess that’s because the other players ripped him to shreds after he used all 3 utilities, his elite + his escape skill to down a single opponent. Also he mainly targets twinks.

Also….dodge before updraft? It’s not like you wouldn’t notice a huge ball of lightning moving towards you while making loud and easily recognizable noises.

A lot of beautiful numbers here but you are not fighting target dummies…
A reaction is possible, the only problem is if a player is fast enough; apparently EasymodeX isn’t so he would liketo see thieves toned down.

You happen to be somewhere in the middle therefore you perceive anything beyond your reaction time as OP. When in reality you are just a tad slow.

Human reaction to something they are prepared and waiting for is 0.18-0.3 seconds.

Watching for a Thief CND at 900 range gives you 0.2s of slack time.

Also, this assumes:

1. The player is drawn (lol WvW).
2. You identify the player.
3. You identify the player as a Thief.
4. You identify the player as a Thief with a Dagger offhand (can be assumed after #3).
5. You can discern the CND animation at 900 range (can be assumed with risk after #3 — e.g. wasting dodges just because you see a Thief is kind of silly, but this is where you want to go with your argument, so why not).

The basic model is “dodge by premonition, or die”. At least the CND-Mug-BS combo no longer deals 35,000 damage like it did back with Orbs in WvW.

RTL has a 2.0s travel time (max range) down to 1.0s travel time (midrange).

I’ve been 100-0’d by Ele burst something like twice since release. The animation is rather obvious, you know?

I never said I have a problem with it.

You cite it as dangerous. What is a poor scrub like me to think when a random poster on the forum is citing the biggest joke of a burst damage ability as dangerous?

Unfortunately I’m just a random baddie, so I need big flashy animations like a hugeass ball of lightning hurtling towards me to react properly, and my feelings are hurt when I insta-die from scary Thieves.

EasymodeX.4062:

1. The player is drawn (lol WvW).
2. You identify the player.
3. You identify the player as a Thief.
4. You identify the player as a Thief with a Dagger offhand (can be assumed after #3).
5. You can discern the CND animation at 900 range

If you are not able to do that, it’s not our problem, nor a balance problem.

EasymodeX.4062:

Unfortunately I’m just a random baddie, so I need big flashy animations like a hugeass ball of lightning hurtling towards me to react properly, and my feelings are hurt when I insta-die from scary Thieves.

finally you wrote a meaningful sentece.

EasymodeX.4062:

frans.8092:

He is saying the ele can have a 100% crit on those 403 and 336 base skills, while a thief has around a 60% crit chance on base 503 and 403 (806) skills. With sufficient +crit damage crit can hit really hard.

Thieves can autocrit from stealth. Anyone can autocrit on a weapon swap.

That is one crit – and requires a grandmaster trait which might have a better use. Same can be said on the sigil. Having one or 5 guaranteed crits is rather different

Random…

I’ll ignore the rest of you gibberish as it’s borderline infraction material.

Just so people are aware, the ability that elementalists have to crit on the next 5 abilities? It’s not the next 5 abilities actually its the next 5 hits after you activate it. So if you RTL and you hit 3 people with that RTL explosion at the end, 3 charges are used. If arcane wave hits 5 people, all 5 charges are used. It isn’t per ability it’s per hit.

And to whomever asked if he cant burning speed away, no he can’t. He’s using a scepter, thats a dagger mainhand ability.

Plus, that elementalist is out of luck. He used every single escape mechanism he has in his arsenal plus all of his utilities to kill one person. He’s a free kill now. Sneeze on him to make him go away. That’s a gimmick build that has no real purpose but to be a gimmick and point and laugh at.

frans.8092:

That is one crit – and requires a grandmaster trait which might have a better use. Same can be said on the sigil. Having one or 5 guaranteed crits is rather different

The Ele capability requires a utility slot which might have a better use. How mind-blowing is that ?!

And the Thief, amazingly enough, has a similar Signet for 15% damage :O. Omgrz! And that’s mathematically stronger than 5 autocrits!

TOO MUCH INFORMATION MELTDOWN.

Wait … all of this was captured a dozen posts ago.

Oh right, I’m slow. Wait, someone’s slow. All I know is that there’s some slowness here.

Edit:

So, like I said before, the only thing that really needs to be changed is to invert CND and/or nerf BS to a 0.5s attack. Nerf to Mug is generally a good idea as well, but more optional. With all 3 I would say also increase the arc of Backstab to include sides as well for more reliable hits.

Zzzzz.