Guild Wars 2

These are just a few ideas I had that I thought would make for a good discussion. Some of these changes would effect other classes too, but they will mainly effect thieves so thieves are the main topic for discussion. Hopefully some interesting and helpful new ideas emerge from this.

Here are the changes for discussion:

1) Blindness now stacks in intensity, with a maximum of 5 stacks. One blind stack is removed for each attack you land, and cleansing blindness removes all stacks.

2) Black Powder now only lasts for 2 seconds, pulsing once at the start and once at the end of its lifetime. Each pulse now applies 2 stacks of blindness for 2 seconds to compensate for its shorter lifespan.

3) Combo finishers that grant stealth are now effected by Meld with Shadows.

4) Only the damage/vulnerability portion of Cloak and Dagger can be nullified(blinded, blocked, evaded etc). As long as you are in range of your target and would have landed CnD if not for the nullification, you will still gain stealth.

5) Attacks from stealth that are nullified(blinded, blocked, evaded, etc) will now cause you to lose your current stealth buff. (You do not get revealed, you just lose your current stealth) Successfully landing an attack from stealth will still reveal you like normal.

Related Trait Changes:

• Shadow’s Embrace : Remove a condition when you enter stealth and when you get revealed.

• Shadow’s Rejuvenation : Recover 1 initiative and 450 health when you enter stealth and when you get revealed.

• Cloaked in Shadow : Apply 2 stacks of blindness to nearby foes for 3 seconds when you are revealed.
  -The fall damage portion from the current version of this trait would be merged into a different trait, like Hidden Thief.

Obviously some more traits, skills, etc. could be modified to reflect these changes, but these seem like the main ones for now.

With these changes it will be a little easier to enter stealth, but landing stealth attacks will be a bit more difficult, allowing for more counter play. Since it would be easier to gain stealth, some measures are taken to discourage staying in stealth while rewarding successfully exiting stealth. This should help thieves have a bit better sustain without having to be in stealth as long, not contributing much to fights.

Some of these changes could have pretty big impacts on thief play styles, so I am curious to see what everyone would think about changes like these if they were implemented.

Meld with shadows needs improved. it’s seriously lackluster right now, espescially compared with Mesmer’s PU.

Blinding that stack intensity, each stack removed by each attack. Some professions will be simply shut down by this for several seconds.

Its almost the same as someone asking Stun to stack duration.

Meld With Shadow needs imporved.

Mesmer’s stealth safty, easy, powerful more than thief.

I agree with llias, blind isn’t a chance to miss its 100% of your next attack regardless of targets (unless its a piercing projectile or a channel).

As far as stealth goes, I’d love to see more enter/exit stealth benefits over “while in stealth” that we have. For meld with shadows, I always felt like merging fleet of shadow to it or some revealed bonus/reduction could help show is impact a little more. Either way this trait is rather underwhelming even without comparing it to Mesmer’s PU.

Blind fields already pulse and even though it’s on 2 seconds people still say that it is ‘perma blind’ . Adding blind stacks is a very dangerous thing try to balance. Blind is good as it is.

No to blind stacking, SR needs to give initiative when entering stealth,SE needs to go back to remove all conditions,CiS needs to be merged with Shadow Protector and fall trait needs to be by itself on master tier,CnD needs blindness instead of vulnerability 180 radius.

PU needs to go back to it’s old self same for torch trait bad move Robert or whoever did it.

Just a few counter points to help with the discussion:

Gray.9041:

Meld with shadows needs improved. it’s seriously lackluster right now, espescially compared with Mesmer’s PU.

magi.4687:

Meld With Shadow needs imporved.

Mesmer’s stealth safty, easy, powerful more than thief.

Well this thread wasn’t necessarily about completely fixing the Shadow Arts line, but if it would help the discussion maybe I could include more changes to it. I agree even though mesmer PU is a gm trait, Meld with Shadows feels way weaker. It may also be that PU is just too strong.

Ilias.8647:

Blinding that stack intensity, each stack removed by each attack. Some professions will be simply shut down by this for several seconds.

Its almost the same as someone asking Stun to stack duration.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Blind fields already pulse and even though it’s on 2 seconds people still say that it is ‘perma blind’ . Adding blind stacks is a very dangerous thing try to balance. Blind is good as it is.

Currently Black Powder does a total of 4 blind applications including the projectile, and after these changes it would be 5 but over a smaller period of time. Maybe these changes would be slightly too much to Black Powder, but it would probably need to be tested to know for sure. If so Black Powder can just be further tweaked, that wouldn’t immediately discard the blind stack idea or anything.
Edit: Another thing about Black Powder is since the duration for the smoke field is shorter, it would be easier to avoid stepping in it, and thus might actually not be as strong in some cases.

The overall idea for blindness stacking was to make it slightly more threatening possibly, as it is very easy to remove the current one stack of blindness. Also whenever blindness is removed by a condition cleanse it usually feels like a bit of a waste since a single auto attack could have just removed it. Keep in mind that just because blindness can stack in intensity doesn’t mean that all current blind attacks would get buffed to immediately apply 5 stacks of blindness, or even 2. The only related skills changed so far are Black Powder possibly, which only applies 1 extra blind stack over its lifespan, and Cloaked in Shadow, which could use a buff compared to its current form. Blind in general has quite short durations so getting 5 stacks wouldn’t be too common, and blind stacking probably wouldn’t be noticed much at all except in group fights possibly. Even if you did get bombed by blinds you could use a condition cleanse to remove it just like with other conditions if you wanted. Currently when you apply blind from 2 different sources, its usually wasted as adding to the duration doesn’t add much value.

Did you really suggest that CnD can’t be blocked or even evaded?

Thieves are in a good spot right now, for both PvP and WvW. I mean, if you had a class which could not only decap better than anyone else, but also 1v1 anyone, would that be balanced? I don’t think so. As it stands you can 1v1 some people anyway, but obviously it may be a waste of time and you should just go decap something else instead. Not because you can’t beat them, but because it’s just better to decap.

In WvW again you see that most roamers are Thieves or Mesmers (T1 NA, it’s about evenly split), showing that they are in a good spot. Venomshare is nice in zergs too. Note that you can use D/D in WvW, it’s pretty good there for the absurd burst potential.

What does need buffs are builds like P/P and S/D, not buffing the already popular and good builds like D/P (and D/D, which contrary to popular opinion does have a few benefits over D/P like faster stealth (for less init) and higher burst)

Edit: Disclaimer I play thief about 80% of the time, don’t pull that ‘you never play thief’ crap on me

Edit 2: What they should do is massively nerf thieves and mesmers so that their burst zerker builds are on equal footing with other zerker classes defenses (S/D ele, static discharge engi.etc), and give them more stat-based defenses rewarding them for building tanky. Like for example, a trait that says “every point of armor increases your endurance regeneration by x%”

Sunflowers.1729:

Did you really suggest that CnD can’t be blocked or even evaded?

Thieves are in a good spot right now, for both PvP and WvW. I mean, if you had a class which could not only decap better than anyone else, but also 1v1 anyone, would that be balanced? I don’t think so. As it stands you can 1v1 some people anyway, but obviously it may be a waste of time and you should just go decap something else instead. Not because you can’t beat them, but because it’s just better to decap.

In WvW again you see that most roamers are Thieves or Mesmers (T1 NA, it’s about evenly split), showing that they are in a good spot. Venomshare is nice in zergs too. Note that you can use D/D in WvW, it’s pretty good there for the absurd burst potential.

What does need buffs are builds like P/P and S/D, not buffing the already popular and good builds like D/P (and D/D, which contrary to popular opinion does have a few benefits over D/P like faster stealth (for less init) and higher burst)

Edit: Disclaimer I play thief about 80% of the time, don’t pull that ‘you never play thief’ crap on me

Only the stealth granting portion of CnD wouldn’t be blockable, the damage still would be, and you would still have to be in range to stealth. D/P has been able to stealth just as easily without even being in close range forever now, while also applying lots of blinds in the process. To help compensate for this, measures are taken to discourage camping in the easier to access stealth as well as #5. Also, I think a lot of people would disagree about thieves currently being in a good spot right now, other than their mobility potential.

Raiden.1375:

Only the stealth granting portion of CnD wouldn’t be blockable, the damage still would be, and you would still have to be in range to stealth. D/P has been able to stealth just as easily without even being in close range forever now, while also applying lots of blinds in the process. To help compensate for this, measures are taken to discourage camping in the easier to access stealth as well as #5. Also, I think a lot of people would disagree about thieves currently being in a good spot right now, other than their mobility potential.

D/P is also slower and you can interrupt the HS. Making CnD’s stealth unblockable and more importantly unevadeable would catapult D/D to the status of absurdly broken.

And I know a lot of people disagree about Thieves being in a good spot, but just looking at the class distribution in WvW roaming will tell you that currently Thieves and Mesmers are still doing amazingly well. Again, PvP teams always have a Thief. What more do you want?

Sunflowers.1729:

Did you really suggest that CnD can’t be blocked or even evaded?

Thieves are in a good spot right now, for both PvP and WvW. I mean, if you had a class which could not only decap better than anyone else, but also 1v1 anyone, would that be balanced? I don’t think so. As it stands you can 1v1 some people anyway, but obviously it may be a waste of time and you should just go decap something else instead. Not because you can’t beat them, but because it’s just better to decap.

In WvW again you see that most roamers are Thieves or Mesmers (T1 NA, it’s about evenly split), showing that they are in a good spot. Venomshare is nice in zergs too. Note that you can use D/D in WvW, it’s pretty good there for the absurd burst potential.

What does need buffs are builds like P/P and S/D, not buffing the already popular and good builds like D/P (and D/D, which contrary to popular opinion does have a few benefits over D/P like faster stealth (for less init) and higher burst)

Edit: Disclaimer I play thief about 80% of the time, don’t pull that ‘you never play thief’ crap on me

Edit 2: What they should do is massively nerf thieves and mesmers so that their burst zerker builds are on equal footing with other zerker classes defenses (S/D ele, static discharge engi.etc), and give them more stat-based defenses rewarding them for building tanky. Like for example, a trait that says “every point of armor increases your endurance regeneration by x%”

well, that’s nice and all, but there aren’t so many point to decap in say… Arah.

don’t forget that not only is PvE a thing, it’s the single biggest part of this game by far, and even ignoring that, I’d say there are plenty of other things the thief still needs. condition builds could use work (tbh, and condition build without burning needs work), and we still have very little survivability. I don’t want to be melted by world/dungeon bosses just because I’m theoretically strong in PvP…

Sunflowers.1729:

D/P is also slower and you can interrupt the HS. Making CnD’s stealth unblockable and more importantly unevadeable would catapult D/D to the status of absurdly broken.

And I know a lot of people disagree about Thieves being in a good spot, but just looking at the class distribution in WvW roaming will tell you that currently Thieves and Mesmers are still doing amazingly well. Again, PvP teams always have a Thief. What more do you want?

Not sure how D/P is slower than D/D when it has Shadow Shot. You can also interrupt Cloak and Dagger, preventing the damage and stealth. It may have a little shorter cast time, but at least you probably won’t be blinded when trying to interrupt CnD like with BlackPowder->Heartseeker.

I mean, the stealth is slower since you have to cast two skills….not that it’s slower at moving around.

Edit: Yeah PvE is a separate concern, I don’t claim to be very knowledgeable in that area. But it does seem that Thieves are still in the meta, judging from the amount of ’LF1M fractal 50 Meta Thief/Ele/Warrior" posts I see. Not too sure.

Sunflowers.1729:

And I know a lot of people disagree about Thieves being in a good spot, but just looking at the class distribution in WvW roaming will tell you that currently Thieves and Mesmers are still doing amazingly well. Again, PvP teams always have a Thief. What more do you want?

Where does wvw roaming place us exactly for being amazingly well?

We are limited on viable build choices, and we are limited in playstyles entirely. 1v1 depends more so on the enemy’s skill than our own, our defenses have been hacked at for so long with no compensation, and we continue to have issues with existing utilities/traits/weapons that don’t get the slightest adjustment, not even something as simple as a value change.

Only thing thief has ever received as a “buff” in the last year or so is our dps which has always been fine. I don’t think people wanted thief overall to get more dps, they wanted more builds and defensive options and none are delivered. I still try to throw out a random kitten build in pvp every now and then and even pve just to change things up a bit, but I’m bored to death of thief. Wvw roaming didn’t help the slightest, p/d was too easy, d/p disgusts me, and the rest are so-so but I often have to resort to retreating due to incoming zergs or Mesmers readying to pounce.

IMHO, thief is no where near in a good spot in any game mode. They are playable, just not enjoyable without playing anet’s version of thief (d/p roaming ><)

if they changed blind to stack able con then it would have to be changed back to first version 1 of blind. far less OP then new one is.

first version of blind would remove blind status on anything that did physical hit. regardless of it hitting anything.

Oh yes, of course. My point is that the best Thief build (D/P + SB) is still competitive with the top builds of other classes (e.g. D/D ele). And the reason why I bring up WvW roaming is that it shows the actual potential of the class.

In PvP, there is no reason to try to 1v1 people. You can, sure, but it’s usually better to just go +1 a point since you have the best mobility. But when roaming in WvW, you have to fight because there are no circles to capture (well except like guards, but that’s seldom the case). If people still use Thieves there, then it means that they aren’t ‘crap’ like this forum likes to claim, but in fact still very good and even top tier at things that are not decapping - such as actually fighting someone.

That being said other builds like P/P and S/D need a buff. But this is the case with most other classes anyway. When did you last see a non D/D (or D/F) Arcane/Water/X Elementalist? Or a PvP ranger without a Wolf pet, or points in the Wilderness Survival line, or with an off-hand axe? It’s not just Thieves with sub-par builds. Yes these off-meta weapons and trait lines should be buffed, of course. But to pretend that we are being unfairly targeted is absurd.

Edit: Also thieves were stupidly broken back at release, why do you think after so many nerfs the class is still widely played and meta in every game mode (except zerging) even today?

Cloak & Dagger needs it’s casting time removing. The kitten thing should be instant!

Sunflowers.1729:

Oh yes, of course. My point is that the best Thief build (D/P + SB) is still competitive with the top builds of other classes (e.g. D/D ele). And the reason why I bring up WvW roaming is that it shows the actual potential of the class.

In PvP, there is no reason to try to 1v1 people. You can, sure, but it’s usually better to just go +1 a point since you have the best mobility. But when roaming in WvW, you have to fight because there are no circles to capture (well except like guards, but that’s seldom the case). If people still use Thieves there, then it means that they aren’t ‘crap’ like this forum likes to claim, but in fact still very good and even top tier at things that are not decapping - such as actually fighting someone.

I don’t know about that. What’s really the point in roaming? It’s kind of like being a very weak and scared bully at school. Choose your fights VERY carefully. And only pick on the defenseless when they are alone. But if someone stands up to a bully and punches them in the nose, there’s really no course left to take other than to run away.

The reason for Thief and Mesmer roamers is because of stealth and mobility. They can hide and run away. Great for world exploration and scouting, but not much else. Kind of like running around in Minecraft picking on zombies. There’s no real purpose.

But in PvP, not being able to 1v1 on point in a combat-centric game feels like a pretty bad spot to me. Either let me be able to sustain a fight or have the capability to end it in one skillful burst. If I’m really supposed to just decap points when they are empty, then give me some unarmed capture-drones to fly around the map while I’m sitting near my spawn.

From what I’ve seen in PvP post-patch, damage has gone through the roof for everyone. That makes Thieves feel even squishier than before, especially with conditions like Burn and Confusion. It also feels like the Thief’s damage potential did not keep up with other professions’ defensive increases. It’s a “glass cannon” vs. “steel cannons.”

honestly i dont understand why thiefs want more blinds and more stealth (yes i know mesmer has almost perma stealth which is bullkitten also) what thiefs need from my pov is none of the above..

we dont need stealths or buffs on it we dont need blinds or buffs on it.
we need to be able to move along with the latest patch with insane damage increase i have hard time to enjoy my thief when im around (not inside cus thats insta dead) the Blob 1 wrong move and i end up between few people and if im out of endurance im pretty much done, yes im a S/D thief and i know its prolly worst set out there atm but i honestly think D/P or D/D sitting back perma on hide tactics is really dumb gameplay and bit to easy..

so for me they need to add something for thief to be able to keep up with latest update damage which is defense but we dont need the defense in some kind of skills they could just give us a HP boost or toughness boost passive the kitten i know..

but last thing Anet should do is touch stuff like blinds/stealths these 2 things are fine on thief, a well played D/P thief will kill most classes or just gtfo and restart the fight constantly.
a well played D/D thief will do the same with lil more struggle but still

basically a D in main hand for thief with w/e off hand is still kind of playable mainly cus of that Backstab burst while the rest of weapons in mainhand seem to fail horrible if u compare it to a Dagger

Kageseigi.2150:

I don’t know about that. What’s really the point in roaming? It’s kind of like being a very weak and scared bully at school. Choose your fights VERY carefully. And only pick on the defenseless when they are alone. But if someone stands up to a bully and punches them in the nose, there’s really no course left to take other than to run away.

The reason for Thief and Mesmer roamers is because of stealth and mobility. They can hide and run away. Great for world exploration and scouting, but not much else. Kind of like running around in Minecraft picking on zombies. There’s no real purpose.

But in PvP, not being able to 1v1 on point in a combat-centric game feels like a pretty bad spot to me. Either let me be able to sustain a fight or have the capability to end it in one skillful burst. If I’m really supposed to just decap points when they are empty, then give me some unarmed capture-drones to fly around the map while I’m sitting near my spawn.

From what I’ve seen in PvP post-patch, damage has gone through the roof for everyone. That makes Thieves feel even squishier than before, especially with conditions like Burn and Confusion. It also feels like the Thief’s damage potential did not keep up with other professions’ defensive increases. It’s a “glass cannon” vs. “steel cannons.”

You’re missing the point completely – I still kill people 1v1 in WvW all the time. In T1 NA, where the roamers are pretty good (usually). Sometimes I do it solo, sometimes in a small group of 2-3. And it’s not just me, you still see tons of Thieves dominating people because they figured out the proper builds to do so. Basically we aren’t weak, you just haven’t figured out how to adapt to the patch, either through playstyle or build.

Also, not being able to 1v1 doesn’t even mean everything. Let’s take LoL or Dota as an example. Some characters are unable to 1v1 anybody but are still #1 priority in every game because of how strong they are in certain facets. Similarly bunker Guardian isn’t going to kill anybody but they can hold a point for ages.

Being able to both 1v1 (even better than we can right now) and decap would permanently seal in the current meta of always having one thief in every pvp team, because why take any other class which can “1v1” you but doesn’t also have the super fast decapping potential? Even now you see Thief is more popular than Mes in competitive games.

reddie.5861:

honestly i dont understand why thiefs want more blinds and more stealth (yes i know mesmer has almost perma stealth which is bullkitten also) what thiefs need from my pov is none of the above..

we dont need stealths or buffs on it we dont need blinds or buffs on it.
we need to be able to move along with the latest patch with insane damage increase i have hard time to enjoy my thief when im around (not inside cus thats insta dead) the Blob 1 wrong move and i end up between few people and if im out of endurance im pretty much done, yes im a S/D thief and i know its prolly worst set out there atm but i honestly think D/P or D/D sitting back perma on hide tactics is really dumb gameplay and bit to easy..

so for me they need to add something for thief to be able to keep up with latest update damage which is defense but we dont need the defense in some kind of skills they could just give us a HP boost or toughness boost passive the kitten i know..

but last thing Anet should do is touch stuff like blinds/stealths these 2 things are fine on thief, a well played D/P thief will kill most classes or just gtfo and restart the fight constantly.
a well played D/D thief will do the same with lil more struggle but still

basically a D in main hand for thief with w/e off hand is still kind of playable mainly cus of that Backstab burst while the rest of weapons in mainhand seem to fail horrible if u compare it to a Dagger

The suggestions here aren’t really about buffing stealth. Only offhand dagger users would have a bit easier time of gaining stealth, and to compensate, it would be slightly harder to land a stealth attack allowing for some counter play. With the trait changes, if you just stay in stealth for long periods at a time, you will not benefit as much as you would currently. However, if you quickly enter stealth and pull off a stealth attack more often you will be rewarded a bit more compared to doing that right now, which discourages staying in stealth.

I don’t think the core aspects of thieves like their base health pool or armor type will be changed.

I do agree our current weapon sets, aside from D/P and SB, are pretty under performing. I think these changes would at least help make D/D on par with D/P, and it could maybe even slightly help S/D. The changes to Black Powder could also help P/P builds in having a more reliable defense if you use it at the right moment. That leads to a problem with P/P though, which is when you use initiative on any skill other than Unload, it hurts your overall dps too much because the auto attack is balanced around a condition build, so the direct damage is low.

By the way, though its not really related to the changes in this thread, you can check out the Proposed Acrobatics Changes link in my signature. Acrobatics focuses on our out of stealth defenses, and thus the changes listed there should be more towards helping weapon sets like S/D etc. if that is your main concern.

i have seen acrobatics thread but i just try to adopt to what Anet changes i mean, yes the only thing i miss from acro is feline grace (which is for me nerfed to the bone), for the rest the trait line is perfect for me but the rest what acro gives is just not enough at the moment to drop what i use at the moment.. saw what u suggested but it just doesnt cut it for me, i can evade stuff succesfull and still not get the bonus cus of how the game works old feline grace was much more rewarding and played a huge roll in thiefs deffence, then again like i said im just trying to adopt. Just nowadays i have harder time to get the kitten out when i make a error since i cant relay on my dodges anymore pretty hard to time perfect dodges when ur fighting some 1 1 1 1 1 class

tho i have to admit in sPvP thief is okay with the changes Anet did, but i prefer WvW where this feline grace nerf had such a massive impact in my opinion. anyway going off topic so ill shush :p

Raiden.1375:

These are just a few ideas I had that I thought would make for a good discussion. Some of these changes would effect other classes too, but they will mainly effect thieves so thieves are the main topic for discussion. Hopefully some interesting and helpful new ideas emerge from this.

Here are the changes for discussion:

1) Blindness now stacks in intensity, with a maximum of 5 stacks. One blind stack is removed for each attack you land, and cleansing blindness removes all stacks.

2) Black Powder now only lasts for 2 seconds, pulsing once at the start and once at the end of its lifetime. Each pulse now applies 2 stacks of blindness for 2 seconds to compensate for its shorter lifespan.

3) Combo finishers that grant stealth are now effected by Meld with Shadows.

4) Only the damage/vulnerability portion of Cloak and Dagger can be nullified(blinded, blocked, evaded etc). As long as you are in range of your target and would have landed CnD if not for the nullification, you will still gain stealth.

5) Attacks from stealth that are nullified(blinded, blocked, evaded, etc) will now cause you to lose your current stealth buff. (You do not get revealed, you just lose your current stealth) Successfully landing an attack from stealth will still reveal you like normal.

Related Trait Changes:

• Shadow’s Embrace : Remove a condition when you enter stealth and when you get revealed.

• Shadow’s Rejuvenation : Recover 1 initiative and 450 health when you enter stealth and when you get revealed.

• Cloaked in Shadow : Apply 2 stacks of blindness to nearby foes for 3 seconds when you are revealed.
  -The fall damage portion from the current version of this trait would be merged into a different trait, like Hidden Thief.

Obviously some more traits, skills, etc. could be modified to reflect these changes, but these seem like the main ones for now.

With these changes it will be a little easier to enter stealth, but landing stealth attacks will be a bit more difficult, allowing for more counter play. Since it would be easier to gain stealth, some measures are taken to discourage staying in stealth while rewarding successfully exiting stealth. This should help thieves have a bit better sustain without having to be in stealth as long, not contributing much to fights.

Some of these changes could have pretty big impacts on thief play styles, so I am curious to see what everyone would think about changes like these if they were implemented.

I agree with a lot of your idea’s! Keep up the good feedback, everyone!

Sunflowers.1729:

Also, not being able to 1v1 doesn’t even mean everything. Let’s take LoL or Dota as an example. Some characters are unable to 1v1 anybody but are still #1 priority in every game because of how strong they are in certain facets. Similarly bunker Guardian isn’t going to kill anybody but they can hold a point for ages.

Being able to both 1v1 (even better than we can right now) and decap would permanently seal in the current meta of always having one thief in every pvp team, because why take any other class which can “1v1” you but doesn’t also have the super fast decapping potential? Even now you see Thief is more popular than Mes in competitive games.

I think you’re missing what people are complaining about with thieves. Being unable to 1v1 means when roamer x meets roamer y, unless they are both thieves it will depend on the competence of the non-thief player for that thief to dominate and move to the next point to decap. Then you say they are great at roaming saying you find good fights sometimes which tells me not all roamers are bright (and from past experience T1 wasn’t a good place to find challenging roamers). What if I want to use thief for something other than roaming? Why am I forced into 1 role or suffering from being sub-par? Where is the build diversity that works?

I don’t think people want thief to be top of the line for decapping and 1v1’ing and +1’ing all at once, they want options and for new things to work. For me, I don’t care about getting another dps build, I want defensive options and a variety of playstyles that don’t involve blind/stealth spam. I don’t want to just decap points and +1 fights and focus on resetting fights with stealth just to win, I want something new for once.

The only reason you’re seeing thief is because the people who are passionate about it still want it to succeed and because you look for them (since you like roaming I take it). Are they good? In the right hands, but as a class its gone nowhere for a very long time and people are getting annoyed with the same builds. Took them 3 years to “fix” last refuge and that is 1 from a long list of kitten thief has had to work with. From what I can recall (only a small list):

-adding F2+ for stolen abilities. Suggested a ton, finally done. Ty

-Removing last refuge from minor trait slot. Suggested a ton, finally done. Ty

-Distinguishing pistol from power and conditions and reworking the p/p set to not be a 3 spam. Still waiting.

-Reworking d/d to become higher reward given its higher risk. Still waiting.

-More enter/exit stealth benefits. Still waiting.

-Reworking venoms to be a little more useful and fill some role without dependency on venomous aura. Still waiting.

-Reworking our elites to either be useful (Thieves guild) or behave as an elite (BV). Still waiting.

-Reverting the sloppy animations from sb to be more fluid. Not sure who changed it or why, but since day 1 people wanted it back. Still waiting.

-Finding an excuse to slot various traits/utilities/healing skills with alternatives that greatly outperform them (even more apparent for traits since you cannot slot more than 1 trait from each tier now). Still waiting.

Not saying other professions don’t have some list of kitten they’d love to shove into the anet mailbox but atleast they got some common builds that work well without being extremely risky. I laugh when I see p/p thieves……

Sunflowers.1729:

You’re missing the point completely – I still kill people 1v1 in WvW all the time. In T1 NA, where the roamers are pretty good (usually). Sometimes I do it solo, sometimes in a small group of 2-3. And it’s not just me, you still see tons of Thieves dominating people because they figured out the proper builds to do so. Basically we aren’t weak, you just haven’t figured out how to adapt to the patch, either through playstyle or build.

I don’t think that was quite my point. For background info, I started out playing a lot of WvW. In fact, I played it more than PvE when I was leveling up. The only real reason I did PvE was to rank up to 80 so I’d have more of a shot in WvW. I finally started to get the hang of doing a lot of damage. I wanted to become a great lone roamer. So I was always looking for an isolated enemy to ambush. Unfortunately, it took me so long to find them, that it become quite boring. I didn’t mind the wait, but the issue was I wanted to practice my fighting skills. Because of that, I ended up moving to PvP with the intention of moving back to WvW as a much more capable fighter. So I haven’t actually touched WvW since a while before the patch (except to kill a dolyak or capture a ruin for dailies). I’ve been strictly PvP for combat practice.

What I was saying about roaming, however, is that it doesn’t really accomplish anything. It’s mainly for kicks. Soloing a camp is more beneficial to the team. But even to be a successful roamer, a thief has to use its advantages to cover for its disadvantages. That means surprise, stealth, and escape.

Yes, the Thief can be much deadlier in WvW compared to PvP, but so can everything else. The goal remains to bully the weak and isolated targets while avoiding getting hit by powerful and multiple targets. But again, the reason why the Thief is capable of being a successful roamer is because it can remain hidden in order ambush the enemy or escape if needed.

Sunflowers.1729:

Also, not being able to 1v1 doesn’t even mean everything. Let’s take LoL or Dota as an example. Some characters are unable to 1v1 anybody but are still #1 priority in every game because of how strong they are in certain facets. Similarly bunker Guardian isn’t going to kill anybody but they can hold a point for ages.

Being able to both 1v1 (even better than we can right now) and decap would permanently seal in the current meta of always having one thief in every pvp team, because why take any other class which can “1v1” you but doesn’t also have the super fast decapping potential? Even now you see Thief is more popular than Mes in competitive games.

I think that’s the thing. The bunker Guardian isn’t supposed to be able to kill things, but it can still kill Thieves relatively easy. We are just too fragile. I started out with the new patch running a DA/CS/T build with the Assassin amulet. I could hit HARD. But I still couldn’t hit hard enough to fight on point. I’m even a heathen Thief, I ran with Dagger/Pistol and Sword/Dagger, so if one style wasn’t working, I would switch to the other in mid fight. That had more success, but I still couldn’t hit hard enough to take out some bunkers, but they could take me out in 2 or 3 hits.

Currently, I’ve moved to a CS/SA/T Marauder build. My sustainability has improved, but my damage has decreased. I still get 3-shot a lot, but my problem of late has been conditions. 4 of 5 utilities remove a condition or more. 1 of my weapon skills removes a condition. Staying in stealth removes conditions. But when going 1v1 against a Guardian or Elementalist, I can’t clear the Burning fast enough. Against Mesmers, it’s Confusion that’s the problem. And against bunkers? Well, let’s just say I feel like I’m punching a brick wall… that punches back like Mike Tyson.

As for the superior decapping ability, that’s due to the mobility of the Shortbow. The reason it’s meta is because it’s the only thing a Thief CAN do better than others. That’s the problem. I can’t even trade in mobility for lethality or decent survivability. At least before the patch, I could decently hold a point 1v2 with a Sword/Dagger “bunker” build. Now, not so much. The Thief’s defenses went down while those of other professions went up, and they also gained a lot of damage output.

My gripe isn’t that a Thief can’t go 1v1 in a fair fight against any given opponent. It’s more that a Thief can’t even use dirty, unfair, sneaky tactics combined with skillful play to beat an equally skilled player who is using certain builds on point… or even off point sometimes.

I’ve heard the Thief being called a “Burst or Die” class. In my observation, it’s more of a “Burst AND Die” class… depending on the target. The “glass cannon” is just too glassy and without enough gunpowder.

Hmm, here’s something to ponder. If a Ranger’s pet could (de)cap a point and could be sent across the map to do so, would the Ranger overtake the Thief in the meta? In other words, could an entire profession be replaced by mindless AI moving from point to point?

EDIT: The new Stronghold game mode is a breath of fresh air. Thieves are still squishy as can be, but we aren’t forced on point. I kind of wish all points in Conquest were the size of the Graveyard in Legacy of the Foefire. Swords and Shortbow Thieves would be so much more capable of fighting on point then.