Guild Wars 2

Neko.1860:

I think someone plays a bit too much WoW

If you really want stealth to drop on damage, then make the game exactly like WoW where you have to target someone with all your non-target circle abilities

or else people will just be running around in shadow refuge swinging their kittenty glass cannon greatswords and knocking you out instantly.

And this game isnt WoW so tough luck.

strawman much?

That wasn’t a strawman

“A straw man or straw person … is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.”

The OP stated he wanted stealth to end on any damage and in no way did Nekov misrepresent that opinion.

OP: “Direct, aoe or dot’d, being damaged should take anybody out of stealth”

Neko’s only representation of the op’s opinion (in my view pretty accurate): “If you really want stealth to drop on damage, then …. "

KirinDave.6451:

the majority of the player base is complaining about your mechanics and if that doesn’t change, eventually your revealed debuff time will be increased.

That isn’t how game balance works, despite what people think, and ANet has already demonstrated that they don’t balance on popular opinion.

Pretty much what Frans said, I just felt that I didnt need to explain myself to you Ekove

Neko.1860:

or else people will just be running around in shadow refuge swinging their kittenty glass cannon greatswords and knocking you out instantly.

Hey, even better : guardian staff autoattack. This thing is a 600 range PBAoE every 0.75s. Stealth would be 99.999% useless against any guardian using this weapon.

stof.9341:

Neko.1860:

or else people will just be running around in shadow refuge swinging their kittenty glass cannon greatswords and knocking you out instantly.

Hey, even better : guardian staff autoattack. This thing is a 600 range PBAoE every 0.75s. Stealth would be 99.999% useless against any guardian using this weapon.

I’m sure a Guardian would love to hear how you manage to use that as a PBAoE.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

I’m sure a Guardian would love to hear how you manage to use that as a PBAoE.

Well it does seem to work that way when I use it. Is there something else about it to know? Maybe it’s not exactly a centered AoE around the player but the affected area is wide enough in front to be an issue.

I think you all should sign up for job in Anet, you all are so full of bright ideas.

stof.9341:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

I’m sure a Guardian would love to hear how you manage to use that as a PBAoE.

Well it does seem to work that way when I use it. Is there something else about it to know? Maybe it’s not exactly a centered AoE around the player but the affected area is wide enough in front to be an issue.

A PBAoE would be a circular attack centered on the player, like Earthquake or Purging Flames (untraited).
Wave of Wrath is a cone attack that points toward the target.

Maybe PBAoE doesn’t have to be circular, I mean, it’s Point Blanc Area of Effect, could also be cone shaped, as long as it originated from the character.

frans.8092:

Maybe PBAoE doesn’t have to be circular, I mean, it’s Point Blanc Area of Effect, could also be cone shaped, as long as it originated from the character.

That CAoE. These are older MMO terms.

Stiv.1820:

frans.8092:

Maybe PBAoE doesn’t have to be circular, I mean, it’s Point Blanc Area of Effect, could also be cone shaped, as long as it originated from the character.

That CAoE. These are older MMO terms.

LoL!
You got me!

TLDR….

80 thief here and I agree with the 6 second reveal debuff increase and fix culling issue before any “balancing” can occur on the thief.

-Artemis the Shade – SoS – The Industry

No, dropping stealth on damage would make it useless in combat. Unless, of course, that’s your intention.

Extend the reveal debuff timer, and implement a hard cap of around 5 seconds for all stealth. There’s no justification for having 10 seconds of stackable stealth from Blinding Power + C&D + etc, or from Shadow Refuge. Even if the thief dies from all the AoEs and random attacks thrown at him, that’s still 10 seconds of guesswork the other players have to sit through. Which, in PvP, isn’t acceptable.

Plus, Ranger traps and Necro marks (I think) don’t even trigger on downed opponents.

Pope.1469:

No, dropping stealth on damage would make it useless in combat. Unless, of course, that’s your intention.

Extend the reveal debuff timer, and implement a hard cap of around 5 seconds for all stealth. There’s no justification for having 10 seconds of stackable stealth from Blinding Power + C&D + etc, or from Shadow Refuge. Even if the thief dies from all the AoEs and random attacks thrown at him, that’s still 10 seconds of guesswork the other players have to sit through. Which, in PvP, isn’t acceptable.

Plus, Ranger traps and Necro marks (I think) don’t even trigger on downed opponents.

You can’t stack stealth of blinding powder —> CnD. You can stack CnD —> Blinding powder. 10 seconds of guesswork? Really that impatient? We should also make it so we don’t have to cycle targets anymore either. We should also put big arrows over top of the real mesmers so that we don’t have to figure out which one is which anymore.

Stop chasing the thief and your problem is solved. Not everything is a D/D glass cannon. If you run away from a P/D thief I have to use init to catch you if I want to kill you which means I either pop a invis skill just to suprise shot for imob or devourer venom or I blow my heal just to immob you. If you run away from a P/D thief before you have 12 stacks of bleeds and you didnt burn your condi removal there isn’t much the theif can do to you.

Thief takes 50% less damage when revealed.
A new trait added to the shadow arts master line.

This is when they add 6 seconds of revealed de-buff of course.

oZii.2864:

Pope.1469:

No, dropping stealth on damage would make it useless in combat. Unless, of course, that’s your intention.

Extend the reveal debuff timer, and implement a hard cap of around 5 seconds for all stealth. There’s no justification for having 10 seconds of stackable stealth from Blinding Power + C&D + etc, or from Shadow Refuge. Even if the thief dies from all the AoEs and random attacks thrown at him, that’s still 10 seconds of guesswork the other players have to sit through. Which, in PvP, isn’t acceptable.

Plus, Ranger traps and Necro marks (I think) don’t even trigger on downed opponents.

You can’t stack stealth of blinding powder —> CnD. You can stack CnD --> Blinding powder. 10 seconds of guesswork? Really that impatient? We should also make it so we don’t have to cycle targets anymore either. We should also put big arrows over top of the real mesmers so that we don’t have to figure out which one is which anymore.

Stop chasing the thief and your problem is solved. Not everything is a D/D glass cannon. If you run away from a P/D thief I have to use init to catch you if I want to kill you which means I either pop a invis skill just to suprise shot for imob or devourer venom or I blow my heal just to immob you. If you run away from a P/D thief before you have 12 stacks of bleeds and you didnt burn your condi removal there isn’t much the theif can do to you.

Sorry if the order I stated the skills was confusing, thanks for clearing that up. As for my “impatience,” yes, I feel that waiting 10 seconds for a thief who may or may not be downed to appear in a PvP (whether it be WvW or sPvP) environment is completely unjustifiable. If you walk away, the thief lives, and he may be back for round two, or just walk away without any consequences for a lost fight. If you wait out the 10 seconds, that’s 10 seconds of time not spent capping a point, or working towards an objective in WvW. In short, the thief would have successfully locked you down and forced you to be useless to your team for those few seconds.

What makes this thought process even more difficult to reason out is the uncertainty of the thief’s status: sometimes you don’t even know for sure if the thief is downed or not. As I mentioned before, ranger traps and necro marks don’t even work against a downed opponent, so if you play those classes, you don’t have any way of figuring it out.

Although you make a very good point regarding dealing with P/D thieves, I don’t believe I ever had a problem with them; my objections were to stealth duration specifically. I’ve fought many good control/condition damage thieves who solidly took me to town and you know what? They were great fights; I didn’t feel cheesed at all.

You’ll just have to wait 10 seconds. Shadows Refuge is the support skill for thieves rezzing downed team-members, it works as intended but you’re suggesting to obliterate it so you are never inconvenienced with guessing or waiting for the eternity of 10 seconds.

How the hell is this thread still live….

Drop stealth on damage, you gotta be kidding me!?

frans.8092:

You’ll just have to wait 10 seconds. Shadows Refuge is the support skill for thieves rezzing downed team-members, it works as intended but you’re suggesting to obliterate it so you are never inconvenienced with guessing or waiting for the eternity of 10 seconds.

No guesswork required with shadow refuge. Go attack the circle. Either the thief is still in the circle and you’re getting hit notifications, or the thief left the circle and is visible after having burned a long-CD utility skill for almost nothing.

C&D → Blinding Powder is a little trickier since they aren’t confined to a circle, but you can still check the general area for their presence.

Daecollo.9578:

Thief takes 50% less damage when revealed.
A new trait added to the shadow arts master line.

This is when they add 6 seconds of revealed de-buff of course.

Or an automatic Protection boon for the duration of Revealed. Just thinking of what’s already established – Protection is an obvious choice.

If revealed is extended, some damage mitigation is mandatory. Otherwise, we have no chance of being useful to anyone when running a stealth build.

frans.8092:

You’ll just have to wait 10 seconds. Shadows Refuge is the support skill for thieves rezzing downed team-members, it works as intended but you’re suggesting to obliterate it so you are never inconvenienced with guessing or waiting for the eternity of 10 seconds.

I’m sure I made it clear that waiting 10 seconds is much more than an “inconvenience.” However, I admit that I don’t have a suggestion to reconcile these two applications of Shadow Refuge.

I would be ok with stealth dropping from damage on a big, hit, say 25% of your health or something like that.

Pope.1469:

As for my “impatience,” yes, I feel that waiting 10 seconds for a thief who may or may not be downed to appear in a PvP (whether it be WvW or sPvP) environment is completely unjustifiable. If you walk away, the thief lives, and he may be back for round two, or just walk away without any consequences for a lost fight.

How did the Thief lost in that scenario? He used a Utility skill (Shadow Refuge) to fool you into believing he got away, allowing him to rally. He choosed that utility skill to escape if the fight isn’t going well for him, or to come back for round two.
If you are not to be fooled, he just wasted 10 seconds of your, and his time, except if you have AoE’s to just kill him while he is downed is stealth, which i do multiple times a day, it works perfectly fine.

Pope.1469:

If you wait out the 10 seconds, that’s 10 seconds of time not spent capping a point, or working towards an objective in WvW. In short, the thief would have successfully locked you down and forced you to be useless to your team for those few seconds.

And what was the Thief doing in that time? Capping a point? Working towards an objective in WvW?
No, he’s bloody lying on the ground, trying to get up/buying time for his team with legitimate game mechanics.
Best case scenario it’s a even, not a plus for the Thief.

Pope.1469:

What makes this thought process even more difficult to reason out is the uncertainty of the thief’s status: sometimes you don’t even know for sure if the thief is downed or not. As I mentioned before, ranger traps and necro marks don’t even work against a downed opponent, so if you play those classes, you don’t have any way of figuring it out.

I don’t know what your point is with mentioning Necro and Ranger over and over again.
No ground target trap spell works on any downed profession. Whats your point?
Also have you ever thought about auto attacking the area around the point where the Thief got most likely downed, while watching your combat log or autoattack chain?

You very clearly never played a Thief since you make it look like a Thief can do all those things without perfectly timing them, without planning them, without giving up utility slots just to do that, without wasting time himself and so on.

It’s just about you, and that you don’t like to have trouble while playing, and every mechanic that actually needs skill, and not numbers to counter them is “completely unjustifiable”.

Ignorance is for fools. Don’t be a fool.

Asum.4960:

Pope.1469:

As for my “impatience,” yes, I feel that waiting 10 seconds for a thief who may or may not be downed to appear in a PvP (whether it be WvW or sPvP) environment is completely unjustifiable. If you walk away, the thief lives, and he may be back for round two, or just walk away without any consequences for a lost fight.

How did the Thief lost in that scenario? He used a Utility skill (Shadow Refuge) to fool you into believing he got away, allowing him to rally. He choosed that utility skill to escape if the fight isn’t going well for him, or to come back for round two.
If you are not to be fooled, he just wasted 10 seconds of your, and his time, except if you have AoE’s to just kill him while he is downed is stealth, which i do multiple times a day, it works perfectly fine.

Pope.1469:

If you wait out the 10 seconds, that’s 10 seconds of time not spent capping a point, or working towards an objective in WvW. In short, the thief would have successfully locked you down and forced you to be useless to your team for those few seconds.

And what was the Thief doing in that time? Capping a point? Working towards an objective in WvW?
No, he’s bloody lying on the ground, trying to get up/buying time for his team with legitimate game mechanics.
Best case scenario it’s a even, not a plus for the Thief.

Pope.1469:

What makes this thought process even more difficult to reason out is the uncertainty of the thief’s status: sometimes you don’t even know for sure if the thief is downed or not. As I mentioned before, ranger traps and necro marks don’t even work against a downed opponent, so if you play those classes, you don’t have any way of figuring it out.

I don’t know what your point is with mentioning Necro and Ranger over and over again.
No ground target trap spell works on any downed profession. Whats your point?
Also have you ever thought about auto attacking the area around the point where the Thief got most likely downed, while watching your combat log or autoattack chain?

You very clearly never played a Thief since you make it look like a Thief can do all those things without perfectly timing them, without planning them, without giving up utility slots just to do that, without wasting time himself and so on.

It’s just about you, and that you don’t like to have trouble while playing, and every mechanic that actually needs skill, and not numbers to counter them is “completely unjustifiable”.

Ignorance is for fools. Don’t be a fool.

Indeed, I was ignorant of how “ground target trap spells” don’t target downed players across all professions. Thanks for clearing that up. And yes, I play thief, please don’t assume I haven’t because I don’t share your opinion.

Look, the reason why it isn’t okay for the thief to waste anyone’s time any more than the typical down -> interrupt/teleport -> stomp or just flat out killing the thief is because he should by all rights be dead. He lost the fight, he should be finished off after he exhausts all his downed skills like any other class. He should not have the option to gamble on his survival by forcing the enemy to guess on his status or position and waste the time they earned. The downed state skills should be the only method of stalling your death.

Of course, if you know for certain the thief is downed and where he is, by all means finish him off. But I don’t think it’s as easy as you claim it is.

Pope.1469:

… He lost the fight, he should be finished off after he exhausts all his downed skills _like any other class.

He planned his escape, good player skill and use of his resources, I’d say.
PvP’s goals are not in killing PC’s, so there is no ‘should be finished’, all that counts is meeting the format’s objectives and while killing pc’s can be a means to complete these objectives, it’s not an objective in itself.

frans.8092:

Pope.1469:

… He lost the fight, he should be finished off after he exhausts all his downed skills _like any other class.

He planned his escape, good player skill and use of his resources, I’d say.
PvP’s goals are not in killing PC’s, so there is no ‘should be finished’, all that counts is meeting the format’s objectives and while killing pc’s can be a means to complete these objectives, it’s not an objective in itself.

Yep, I agree with your summary of PvP objectives completely.

Now, if thieves actually did plan their escapes ahead of time and with skill, I wouldn’t have a problem with a good thief getting away repeatedly. The problem is Shadow Refuge has become a sort of knee-jerk, low-skill cap reaction among a good amount of thieves that I’ve tried to argue provides too much benefit for a single utility slot.

Pope.1469:

frans.8092:

Pope.1469:

… He lost the fight, he should be finished off after he exhausts all his downed skills _like any other class.

He planned his escape, good player skill and use of his resources, I’d say.
PvP’s goals are not in killing PC’s, so there is no ‘should be finished’, all that counts is meeting the format’s objectives and while killing pc’s can be a means to complete these objectives, it’s not an objective in itself.

Yep, I agree with your summary of PvP objectives completely.

Now, if thieves actually did plan their escapes ahead of time and with skill, I wouldn’t have a problem with a good thief getting away repeatedly. The problem is Shadow Refuge has become a sort of knee-jerk, low-skill cap reaction among a good amount of thieves that I’ve tried to argue provides too much benefit for a single utility slot.

Your point doesn’t even make sense many classes have get out of jail free cards.

How can you not be monitoring the health of the thief your fighting? How can you not see if he used his heal or not. If you play a thief then I don’t understand your complaints because they sound like someone that has never played one. Your complaint is right before you killed a thief he happened to pop refuge obviously he did it because he was about to die.

You never seen a mesmer running around with a torch, veil, decoy, and mass invis before?

You never fought a ranger and they pop the stability buff and you can’t CC them as they get away. The only difference is you see them leaving the fight either way they got away. At the point in the fight where a thief pops refuge because he is about to die you should have already figured out what kind of thief your fighting.

oZii.2864:

Pope.1469:

frans.8092:

Pope.1469:

… He lost the fight, he should be finished off after he exhausts all his downed skills _like any other class.

He planned his escape, good player skill and use of his resources, I’d say.
PvP’s goals are not in killing PC’s, so there is no ‘should be finished’, all that counts is meeting the format’s objectives and while killing pc’s can be a means to complete these objectives, it’s not an objective in itself.

Yep, I agree with your summary of PvP objectives completely.

Now, if thieves actually did plan their escapes ahead of time and with skill, I wouldn’t have a problem with a good thief getting away repeatedly. The problem is Shadow Refuge has become a sort of knee-jerk, low-skill cap reaction among a good amount of thieves that I’ve tried to argue provides too much benefit for a single utility slot.

Your point doesn’t even make sense many classes have get out of jail free cards.

How can you not be monitoring the health of the thief your fighting? How can you not see if he used his heal or not. If you play a thief then I don’t understand your complaints because they sound like someone that has never played one. Your complaint is right before you killed a thief he happened to pop refuge obviously he did it because he was about to die.

You never seen a mesmer running around with a torch, veil, decoy, and mass invis before?

You never fought a ranger and they pop the stability buff and you can’t CC them as they get away. The only difference is you see them leaving the fight either way they got away. At the point in the fight where a thief pops refuge because he is about to die you should have already figured out what kind of thief your fighting.

I’m talking only about the thief because I’m on the thief forum. But I’ll bite. I don’t like mesmers stacking stealth either; my opinion is consistent. I did say that I wanted a hard stealth cap of around 5 seconds. But let’s put that aside for a second and take a look at your example: The Prestige + Veil + Decoy + Mass Invisibility. That’s a weapon skill, two utility slots, and an elite slot, (with MI having a 90 second cooldown) as opposed to the one utility slot thieves use to achieve the same result.

As far as stability goes, it doesn’t block immobilize or slows, it can be ripped or converted to fear, and you’re free to not guess where they are and hit them as they run. Definitely not as big of a problem as long duration stealth.

Pope.1469:

The problem is Shadow Refuge has become a sort of knee-jerk, low-skill cap reaction among a good amount of thieves that I’ve tried to argue provides too much benefit for a single utility slot.

As low as the skill floor (cap doesn’t apply here) is on effective use of Shadow Refuge, the counter skill floor is just as low. Go to circle (or aim at circle), use auto attacks until you get an exp message or stop getting hit notifications. A profession that has its defense based on evasion and deception has just confined itself to a tiny circle, this isn’t some masterful use of tactics, this is an opportunity.

urdriel.8496:

yesterday a bunch of thieves (4-5) in WvWvW, casting all time Shadow Refuge (oh yes, 4-5 shadows refuges…) and killing people pressing 2 all time , was “fun” and sad, soo much power in a kitten broken mechanic and a single skill without cooldown, you dont need skill, you need a focking finger………

Sounds to me like someone doesn’t understand how thieves work… Or is making stuff up entirely.

urdriel.8496:

yesterday a bunch of thieves (4-5) in WvWvW, casting all time Shadow Refuge (oh yes, 4-5 shadows refuges…) and killing people pressing 2 all time , was “fun” and sad, soo much power in a kitten broken mechanic and a single skill without cooldown, you dont need skill, you need a focking finger………

Shadow Refuge has a 1 Minute cool down.

It’s a stupid tiny circle in which you have to stay for the full duration if you want to leave it with stealth.

If i see a other Thief using Shadow Refuge in WvW i scream free kill into my mic, switch to my Shortbow, Shadowstep to the Refuge, and Clusterbomb the kitten out of it.

You say they were 4-5 Thieves?

Awesome, thats about 6-8 Badges for me, without any effort whatsoever.

Shadow Refuge is a noob trap (for both sides), not a super uber utility skill.
And if i see a guy just sitting next to me and going brain afk when i use Shadow Refuge instead of using the opportunity to kill me, then i gonna kill him.
Because he deserved it for being a terrible player.

You would think theres a limit of ignorance and stupidity a human mind can achieve.
But there really isn’t.

How can you complain about something if you don’t even know how it works. And why would you complain about something, instead of just fixing it, or at least trying so.

Mimi, i don’t like it, i can’t see him anymore, how OP is that, i can’t do anything to counter it.

Mind blown.
Every day in this forum section.

Asum.4960:

Shadow Refuge is a noob trap (for both sides), not a super uber utility skill.

Shadow Refuge is a super uber utility skill, truly the thief’s sonic screwdriver … but using it in plain sight in an attempt to escape is like using your sonic screwdriver to hammer in nails.

Tulisin.6945:

Asum.4960:

Shadow Refuge is a noob trap (for both sides), not a super uber utility skill.

Shadow Refuge is a super uber utility skill, truly the thief’s sonic screwdriver … but using it in plain sight in an attempt to escape is like using your sonic screwdriver to hammer in nails.

I disagree, due to how many counters Shadow Refuge has.

The first one is obvious, it’s just AoE bombing the area.

But if you have a Guardian, you can just push the Thief out of his cute little circle, making him destealth, and getting revealed.
A Mesmer can just pull some one out.
A Necro will simply fear you out…
..and so on.

This skill is only good if you are fighting people who don’t know their class, and neither the Thief profession.

All this skill can be used for in high PvP play, is to prevent stomps on allies for a few seconds (while pretty much every other class has better ways doing so, on shorter CD’s).

I have yet to see any Thief in a tournament match pulling off even one Shadow Refuge against my sPvP team.

In WvW, yes, you can walk behind a bush and stealth with Shadow Refuge for 10 seconds, running rather safely away. That is if nobody reaches you before Refuge ends (which means you probably could have run away just like that anyway).
Not a super uber skill imo.

The Thieves “sonic screwdriver”, as you call it, is cleary Shadowstep (the utility skill), since it doesn’t depend on the enemy being terrible at his class, while granting you 2 stun breaks, a condition removal and mobility on top of confusing the enemy.

Asum.4960:

I disagree, due to how many counters Shadow Refuge has.

The first one is obvious, it’s just AoE bombing the area.

But if you have a Guardian, you can just push the Thief out of his cute little circle, making him destealth, and getting revealed.
A Mesmer can just pull some one out.
A Necro will simply fear you out…
..and so on.

These are all counters that can be used if you drop shadow refuge in plain sight with the intent to stand in it and soak up stealth. While that is one use of it that is, like I said, using it as a hammer.

You can also:
As you mentioned, use it to stop stomps on buddies or cover a revive/stomp.
Use it as a heal.
Leap or cluster bomb it for blind.
Drop it on yourself and shoot out of it for healing.
Drop it on an opponent and let everyone else shoot them for healing (particularly nice if you’re downing someone via concentrated ranged fire).
Use it out of combat for relatively long term stealth for an ambush or travel purposes.
Drop it as a decoy, stealth by another means and watch people target an empty circle.
Put caltrops in it and stand in it with the full knowledge that people will come in after you.

The fact that it does so many things makes it a great multipurpose tool with a high skill cap. Same with Shadowstep, of course.

Laika.8795:

urdriel.8496:

yesterday a bunch of thieves (4-5) in WvWvW, casting all time Shadow Refuge (oh yes, 4-5 shadows refuges…) and killing people pressing 2 all time , was “fun” and sad, soo much power in a kitten broken mechanic and a single skill without cooldown, you dont need skill, you need a focking finger………

Sounds to me like someone doesn’t understand how thieves work… Or is making stuff up entirely.

i leveled a thief to 80, only to try thief class, actually im playing with a ranger (main pj), because thief is really op, is too easy to kill with him, you can literally spam any skill (Hb,discharge,etc)to kill people, if you have any problem, stealth and backstab, +1 kill….

We must wait til Anet fix Culling to nerf or not stealth ( mesmer use stealth culling bug ofc).

urdriel.8496:

Laika.8795:

urdriel.8496:

yesterday a bunch of thieves (4-5) in WvWvW, casting all time Shadow Refuge (oh yes, 4-5 shadows refuges…) and killing people pressing 2 all time , was “fun” and sad, soo much power in a kitten broken mechanic and a single skill without cooldown, you dont need skill, you need a focking finger………

Sounds to me like someone doesn’t understand how thieves work… Or is making stuff up entirely.

i leveled a thief to 80, only to try thief class, actually im playing with a ranger (main pj), because thief is really op, is too easy to kill with him, you can literally spam any skill (Hb,discharge,etc)to kill people, if you have any problem, stealth and backstab, +1 kill….

We must wait til Anet fix Culling to nerf or not stealth ( mesmer use stealth culling bug ofc).

You are playing the easiest class to play, because Thief (the class with the highest skill cap, together with elementalists) was to easy for you?

Wups..

Also you realise that Rangers can kill just as quick as Thieves?
The only difference is that the Thief sits in melee range, and the ranger at 1200 range.

I’d like to see you kill anything spamming head shot.

Daecollo.9578:

I’d like to see you kill anything spamming head shot.

HS = Heartseeker.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Daecollo.9578:

I’d like to see you kill anything spamming head shot.

HS = Heartseeker.

I think he was referring to this quote:

you can literally spam any skill (Hb,discharge,etc)to kill people

Which doesn’t make any sense for a number of reasons.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Daecollo.9578:

I’d like to see you kill anything spamming head shot.

HS = Heartseeker.

I like to see you killing anything spamming heartseeker.

I mean, the enemy could, accidently of course, everything else would be skill, press the dodge button, and you did absolutely nothing other than wasting your whole initiative to be a free kill.

If you die to a spam Thief, then why the hell do you play PvP in the first place?
And even more so, how do you dare to complain about something that killed you, when the reason you died was clearly that you suck.

Asum.4960:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Daecollo.9578:

I’d like to see you kill anything spamming head shot.

HS = Heartseeker.

I like to see you killing anything spamming heartseeker.

I mean, the enemy could, accidently of course, everything else would be skill, press the dodge button, and you did absolutely nothing other than wasting your whole initiative to be a free kill.

If you die to a spam Thief, then why the hell do you play PvP in the first place?
And even more so, how do you dare to complain about something that killed you, when the reason you died was clearly that you suck.

Wow you take so much based on a simple correction.
Where in that post did I say ANYTHING about the validity of the statements involved?
The only thing I said was that HS means Heartseeker, since it seemed like the person thought that everyone was whining about Headshot, not Heartseeker.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Asum.4960:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Daecollo.9578:

I’d like to see you kill anything spamming head shot.

HS = Heartseeker.

I like to see you killing anything spamming heartseeker.

I mean, the enemy could, accidently of course, everything else would be skill, press the dodge button, and you did absolutely nothing other than wasting your whole initiative to be a free kill.

If you die to a spam Thief, then why the hell do you play PvP in the first place?
And even more so, how do you dare to complain about something that killed you, when the reason you died was clearly that you suck.

Wow you take so much based on a simple correction.
Where in that post did I say ANYTHING about the validity of the statements involved?
The only thing I said was that HS means Heartseeker, since it seemed like the person thought that everyone was whining about Headshot, not Heartseeker.

It was aimed at the statement, not your person.

sachiel.8051:

So, let’s use our story-telling imagination here: You’re bleeding like a stuck pig and turn yourself invisible. Does the blood that hits the ground and separates from you remain invisible? How about your vomit from the poisoning? What about the fire burning your invisible body?

Let’s put on our imagination hats again. I just stabbed you in the back with a big sharp knife… Your spinal cord was just severed in two parts, you can’t move your arms, you collapse in a heap because your legs and your brain can’t communicate anymore. You’re dead.

If you want it to be like TF2 Where you can see a thief on fire then thieves will get the ability to 1 shot you.

Grizledorf.5290:

If you want it to be like TF2 Where you can see a thief on fire then thieves will get the ability to 1 shot you.

The ability to 1 shot anyone, without having to go into stealth at all to do it, just by hitting someone in the back with a dagger Now that would be great.

Grizledorf.5290:

If you want it to be like TF2 Where you can see a thief on fire then thieves will get the ability to 1 shot you.

Just like he said.
If you take away a Thieves crutch they have no other way to kill you unless they get to do it in just one hit.

frans.8092:

That wasn’t a strawman

“A straw man or straw person … is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.”

The OP stated he wanted stealth to end on any damage and in no way did Nekov misrepresent that opinion.

OP: “Direct, aoe or dot’d, being damaged should take anybody out of stealth”

Neko’s only representation of the op’s opinion (in my view pretty accurate): “If you really want stealth to drop on damage, then …. "

Then you played too much WoW and you are trying to make this game WoW 2.0…..

Strawman…I never played WoW nor am I arguing to make this game like it.

Tulisin.6945:

Pope.1469:

The problem is Shadow Refuge has become a sort of knee-jerk, low-skill cap reaction among a good amount of thieves that I’ve tried to argue provides too much benefit for a single utility slot.

As low as the skill floor (cap doesn’t apply here) is on effective use of Shadow Refuge, the counter skill floor is just as low. Go to circle (or aim at circle), use auto attacks until you get an exp message or stop getting hit notifications. A profession that has its defense based on evasion and deception has just confined itself to a tiny circle, this isn’t some masterful use of tactics, this is an opportunity.

Skill floor, thanks for the correction. You’ve definitely listed many of the more situational – and skillful – uses of SR, and I have no problem with any of those.

As for your advice, I’ve had this method of “countering” Shadow Refuge suggested to me multiple times, but it’s easy enough to dodge a few times, heal, soak a hit or two, and continue on your merry way stealthed.

Asum’s advice to use knockbacks or pulls is highly effective on certain classes, but this effectiveness is inconsistent across classes. I am biased, of course, since my main is a Ranger whose only knockback/hard CC option is longbow-4, which has a high chance of missing anyway if you shoot it into SR. The longbow itself isn’t the best weapon to use against melee-oriented (the majority of) thieves, so plenty of rangers don’t have that option when fighting a thief.

Anyway, all my points were made with the assumption of a 1v1 fight, without team coordination. That’s why SR is so ineffective in tPvP, but garners so many complaints in WvW and to a lesser extent sPvP scenarios.

Asum.4960:

urdriel.8496:

Laika.8795:

urdriel.8496:

yesterday a bunch of thieves (4-5) in WvWvW, casting all time Shadow Refuge (oh yes, 4-5 shadows refuges…) and killing people pressing 2 all time , was “fun” and sad, soo much power in a kitten broken mechanic and a single skill without cooldown, you dont need skill, you need a focking finger………

Sounds to me like someone doesn’t understand how thieves work… Or is making stuff up entirely.

i leveled a thief to 80, only to try thief class, actually im playing with a ranger (main pj), because thief is really op, is too easy to kill with him, you can literally spam any skill (Hb,discharge,etc)to kill people, if you have any problem, stealth and backstab, +1 kill….

We must wait til Anet fix Culling to nerf or not stealth ( mesmer use stealth culling bug ofc).

Also you realise that Rangers can kill just as quick as Thieves?
The only difference is that the Thief sits in melee range, and the ranger at 1200 range.

oh yes, a ranger can kill 100% of hp in 1 sec?? how??

ofc it is possible, if you have 10k base attack…….

so there are people suggesting aoe reveals stealth, and some people suggesting only direct hit reveals stealth, but one thing that bugs me is… how does one define whether a skill is an AOE or a direct hit?

i have a staff ele so i think my meteor shower is an AOE skill since its got a big green circle and hits multiple targets. but what about my Churning Earth? does my Churning Earth counts as AOE as well? they both hits multiple targets, the only difference is that one has green circle to target and the other one is centered at the chanter. If Churning Earth is considered as an AOE then what about other skills that hits multiple targets around the caster? ie: auto-attack of a warrior using sword, or gs, or hammer, axe, mace, staff guardian auto-attack, do these auto-attacks count as AOE as well? if they are AOE and AOE breaks stealth, then as long as the warrior or guardian is whooping his weapon(which is always, during fights) there is no point of using CnD. (staff guard auto-atk only covers the front , but axe war auto-atk covers almost 360 degress)