Guild Wars 2

I’m not sure if I’ve already posted this in the forums or not, if so apologies.

Please do something interesting with this skill.

My suggestion is to make it a skill that teleports you directly behind your target by making it a 1 second channeled block. During the channel you can also keep the option to throw the dancing dagger.

I’d start by experimenting with the cost at 3 and 1 for the block and dagger throw respectively. Put the max teleport range at 200 and only trigger the teleport when a melee range block occurs.

In order to make D/D viable you’ll have to change either Death Blossom, Dancing Dagger, or both. Since this affects P/D and S/D it will obvoiusly require more testing, but I feel its a more interesting approach to start with than just changing Death Blossom.

Idk. With all the evades, shadowsteps, shadow returns, dodges, and stealth available to thieves, I think the last thing they need is access to a block.

It already does something interesting. Every hit of the projectile is a 100% projectile finisher. Using it from inside a dark field like shadow refuge or a necro well is a significant heal in a isutation where just using your SR to stealth won’t save you (like, for instance, when you’re staring down a 3v1 and need to stall for a cooldown) even with no traits/points devoted.

However, the intended use of the skill is a gap opener and escapse tool, which is why it’s more effective versus multiple targets and adds cripple.

Maybe adding freezing to it as part of an otherwise unremarkable trait to allow people to spec it in to a better escape tool?

I’d be happy with a dagger that could reliably hit its first target – It doesn’t need to be heat seeking, but my targets shouldn’t be able obstruct it by sneezing while it slowly twirls its way towards them.

PopeUrban.2578:

It already does something interesting. Every hit of the projectile is a 100% projectile finisher. Using it from inside a dark field like shadow refuge or a necro well is a significant heal in a isutation where just using your SR to stealth won’t save you (like, for instance, when you’re staring down a 3v1 and need to stall for a cooldown) even with no traits/points devoted.

However, the intended use of the skill is a gap opener and escapse tool, which is why it’s more effective versus multiple targets and adds cripple.

Maybe adding freezing to it as part of an otherwise unremarkable trait to allow people to spec it in to a better escape tool?

if you’re on a 3v1 and shadow refuge is available, you drop SR and keep dodging inside it, then get the hell out of there, rather than break stealth for some life leeching.

The only thing I would change about Dancing Dagger is the duration of cripple applied. 3s was fine when GW2 came out years ago. But now it’s way to short with all those cripple reduction traits + foods available. Duration should be increased to 4s.

If I would change something about D/D it’s Death Blossom. Increase evade duration to 1/2s + change 3x bleed to 3x vulnerability.

The worse I find on this skill, that makes it so frustrating is that it cannot work as a chasing tool well.

The reason is that, the projectile disapears after a certain distance traveled linked to the max cast range with some extra tolerance I guess. But since the projectile is so slow, when you use it at max range on someone that is fleeing, it cannot reach them before the end of it’s lifetime.

This makes the skill feel a LOT more unreliable than it should. Really, if I’m in range of someone when I cast a skill, unless he’s using a skill to rush out or he dodges it, dancing dagger should not miss due to out of range.

That kinda skill I was hoping to get for a future off hand sword

teg.1340:

The only thing I would change about Dancing Dagger is the duration of cripple applied. 3s was fine when GW2 came out years ago. But now it’s way to short with all those cripple reduction traits + foods available. Duration should be increased to 4s.

If I would change something about D/D it’s Death Blossom. Increase evade duration to 1/2s + change 3x bleed to 3x vulnerability.

But vulnerability is useless on a thief, everybody knows that.

RyuDragnier.9476:

teg.1340:

The only thing I would change about Dancing Dagger is the duration of cripple applied. 3s was fine when GW2 came out years ago. But now it’s way to short with all those cripple reduction traits + foods available. Duration should be increased to 4s.

If I would change something about D/D it’s Death Blossom. Increase evade duration to 1/2s + change 3x bleed to 3x vulnerability.

But vulnerability is useless on a thief, everybody knows that.

maybe it’s just me, but i never really bother with vulnerability on any class. i just can’t tell the impact of it, unlike with might stacks.

RyuDragnier.9476:

teg.1340:

The only thing I would change about Dancing Dagger is the duration of cripple applied. 3s was fine when GW2 came out years ago. But now it’s way to short with all those cripple reduction traits + foods available. Duration should be increased to 4s.

If I would change something about D/D it’s Death Blossom. Increase evade duration to 1/2s + change 3x bleed to 3x vulnerability.

But vulnerability is useless on a thief, everybody knows that.

Since when vulnerability is useless on a class like thief… ?

Yea dancing dagger needs a little love. But to make d/d viable id
1.Start with rework death blossom. It needs 1/2sec evade and a toggle skill that prevents spamming evades (low dmg)
2. 3sec revealed in pvp

mao.9832:

RyuDragnier.9476:

teg.1340:

The only thing I would change about Dancing Dagger is the duration of cripple applied. 3s was fine when GW2 came out years ago. But now it’s way to short with all those cripple reduction traits + foods available. Duration should be increased to 4s.

If I would change something about D/D it’s Death Blossom. Increase evade duration to 1/2s + change 3x bleed to 3x vulnerability.

But vulnerability is useless on a thief, everybody knows that.

Since when vulnerability is useless on a class like thief… ?

Since it takes 2-3 uses of Backstab to kill anything really with a glass build, who are the only ones who use D/D other than condi builds. People who abuse Backstab are never going to use Death Blossom since they’re pretty much built glassy to use Backstab effectively, and if you’re trying to use Death Blossom, you’re getting hit, something you never want as a glass cannon build. Plus changing it to vulnerability would kill the condition builds that use D/D since Death Blossom will no longer be viable since vulnerability does no damage. Your change would nerf the skill.

1. D/D unicorn build is not really viable anymore and whoever plays condi uses p/d because is cheesy.
2. Let’s count the fact that the 99% of people running d/d is zerk and doesn’t care a lot about those stacks of bleeding.
3. I’m not saying that death blossom would be nice with vulnerability but I don’t get why you said vuln is useless on a thief… meh.

mao.9832:

1. D/D unicorn build is not really viable anymore and whoever plays condi uses p/d because is cheesy.
2. Let’s count the fact that the 99% of people running d/d is zerk and doesn’t care a lot about those stacks of bleeding.
3. I’m not saying that death blossom would be nice with vulnerability but I don’t get why you said vuln is useless on a thief… meh.

Answering these with numbers so you know what I’m referring to.

#1. With 30 in SA, and due to our overall health and even with Signet of Malice on, a thief can get off only 1-3 Death Blossoms usually before disengaging through stealth to heal. Vulnerabilty is useless during that period because you need something doing damage while you’re not, which is why the bleed is valuable, making it useful for condi-builds, especially if you’re bombing by using a venom with it.

#2: You think they’d care if vulnerability is on the skill? It still wouldn’t be used simply because it leaves the zerker open to be hit, when they can simply just evade for 3 seconds and then stealth again for another backstab. Deathblossom will NEVER be used by zerker or power builds, get over it.

#3: Vulnerability does jack squat when we’re disengaging so often through stealth, and is ONLY useful if we can keep pressure on an enemy for long periods of time (ie sustained fights) without stealthing. That is something the thief class cannot do by itself, it’s one of our weaknesses due to our health pool and lack of defense utilities outside of evasion and dodging.

mao.9832:

1. D/D unicorn build is not really viable anymore and whoever plays condi uses p/d because is cheesy.
2. Let’s count the fact that the 99% of people running d/d is zerk and doesn’t care a lot about those stacks of bleeding.
3. I’m not saying that death blossom would be nice with vulnerability but I don’t get why you said vuln is useless on a thief… meh.

1- really gets on my nerves. i’ve been playing P/D on PvP forever now, and now that it’s finally considered viable (after 1 year + of buffs), everyone disses it as cheesy.
2-yep. might as well tweak death blossom for power builds, since every other skill on D/D is power based.
3- thief is a burst class, vuln is better for sustained dps. burning all your initiative applying AoE vulnerability so that the single target burst skill can try and deal a little extra damage is redundant, and no one would use it.

what i think death blossom needs:

-make it power centric (give it an extra ini cost but make it hit harder than it does now)
-increase the evasion time to match the freaking animation
-reduce that aftercast that leaves you a sitting duck for almost a full second.

Dancing Dagger is fine although id like a small bleed added on to it.

Death Blossom just needs its timing reworked like stated above. D/D condi thieves played right are deadly!!!

P/D isn’t cheese. Been using it since launch and finally got a few buffs. D/P is cheese >.>

Why is it that every couple weeks there is some kitten poor D/D thief with no skill comes and complains about my beloved Death Blossom. How they need more power D/D skills so they can one shot people. Here is a clue… thieves, unlike other classes, can use the same skill over and over, so you don’t need to specific weapon sets for power or condition damage. Fix yourself, L2P, before you try and fix the game.

CptnDrunk.8361:

Dancing Dagger is fine although id like a small bleed added on to it.

Death Blossom just needs its timing reworked like stated above. D/D condi thieves played right are deadly!!!

P/D isn’t cheese. Been using it since launch and finally got a few buffs. D/P is cheese >.>

D/D condi thieves “played right” have exactly one skill that does condition damage!

That’s awful, awful design.

CptnDrunk.8361:

Dancing Dagger is fine although id like a small bleed added on to it.

Death Blossom just needs its timing reworked like stated above. D/D condi thieves played right are deadly!!!

P/D isn’t cheese. Been using it since launch and finally got a few buffs. D/P is cheese >.>

as someone that played condi D/D thief for faaaaar too long, having only one skill to use is extremely boring.

NO! slaps Shockwave in the face We do not talk about making teef skills stronger or, god forbid, useful! You will take your mini-Cleave as a counter to all the newly introduced forced reveal and you will like it! Because that is the only buff we will see for a long time.
…making D/D viable, tss tss tss slams door.

I’d rather it just apply poison and not bounce. Its bad for damage and if you’re using d/d heartseeker is a stronger gap closer, and if you’re using p/d body shot is far better than a cripple even if it costs 1 more initiative (so they can’t dodge your cnd while immobilized).

Remove the bounce, and add a ~3 second poison to the mix. So 3 second cripple/poison single target with 100% projectile finisher. It’s slow and thief doesn’t make many fields so the finisher part is situational already. Atleast it would help x/d condition, really do nothing for x/d power aside for the finisher part if it comes up.

It’s a multi-target skill so PvP players always come to the forum and want it changed to be a single target weapon with higher damage and more conditions, etc. Unfortunately, pistol/dagger with multi-target snare is a newbie weapon set that can be used safely in PvE from level 1 with no utilities, no traits, no build. I can’t see that getting broken.

BrunoBRS.5178:

PopeUrban.2578:

It already does something interesting. Every hit of the projectile is a 100% projectile finisher. Using it from inside a dark field like shadow refuge or a necro well is a significant heal in a isutation where just using your SR to stealth won’t save you (like, for instance, when you’re staring down a 3v1 and need to stall for a cooldown) even with no traits/points devoted.

However, the intended use of the skill is a gap opener and escapse tool, which is why it’s more effective versus multiple targets and adds cripple.

Maybe adding freezing to it as part of an otherwise unremarkable trait to allow people to spec it in to a better escape tool?

if you’re on a 3v1 and shadow refuge is available, you drop SR and keep dodging inside it, then get the hell out of there, rather than break stealth for some life leeching.

Which is fine when:

You have endurance avaliable

You’re not already in such desperate need of a heal that any tiny amount of cleave or AoE will faceplant you anyway

You’re not looking at three players who among them have at least one launch.

You weren’t already revealed by your own traits, failing to gank, traps

etc. etc. etc.

Use SR and run is always the go-to of course, but in some situations it just plain doesn’t work. When you end up with your pants down and revealed (which happens about 50% of the time you use SR since this isn’t release and people know how to counter it), a couple dancing dagger combos, and a dodge is sometimes exactly what you need to hang for the time it takes to burn revealed, finish the cooldown on roll for initiative/shadowstep/etc. etc.

I’m not saying it’s PERFECT, it definately needs a little love (I like the idea of adding torment to it) but I wouldn’t be so fast to discount how useful it can be when used in the situations it’s designed for.

I want offhand sword block

or offhand torch block :P so i can use rodgort

anyways, pretty much only time I use it is with S/D if I don’t have sword 2 or shadowstep or for a followup with throw gunk confusion or something. I miss when it did lotsa dmg. :O

PopeUrban.2578:

BrunoBRS.5178:

PopeUrban.2578:

It already does something interesting. Every hit of the projectile is a 100% projectile finisher. Using it from inside a dark field like shadow refuge or a necro well is a significant heal in a isutation where just using your SR to stealth won’t save you (like, for instance, when you’re staring down a 3v1 and need to stall for a cooldown) even with no traits/points devoted.

However, the intended use of the skill is a gap opener and escapse tool, which is why it’s more effective versus multiple targets and adds cripple.

Maybe adding freezing to it as part of an otherwise unremarkable trait to allow people to spec it in to a better escape tool?

if you’re on a 3v1 and shadow refuge is available, you drop SR and keep dodging inside it, then get the hell out of there, rather than break stealth for some life leeching.

Which is fine when:

You have endurance avaliable

You’re not already in such desperate need of a heal that any tiny amount of cleave or AoE will faceplant you anyway

You’re not looking at three players who among them have at least one launch.

You weren’t already revealed by your own traits, failing to gank, traps

etc. etc. etc.

Use SR and run is always the go-to of course, but in some situations it just plain doesn’t work. When you end up with your pants down and revealed (which happens about 50% of the time you use SR since this isn’t release and people know how to counter it), a couple dancing dagger combos, and a dodge is sometimes exactly what you need to hang for the time it takes to burn revealed, finish the cooldown on roll for initiative/shadowstep/etc. etc.

I’m not saying it’s PERFECT, it definately needs a little love (I like the idea of adding torment to it) but I wouldn’t be so fast to discount how useful it can be when used in the situations it’s designed for.

idunno, that just sounds like poor planning on your part, if you see an uphill battle getting that bad and stick to it so close to the end :P you’re better off using SR as a decoy if it gets that bad. get in, teleport 1200 units away, SB5 the hell out of there to reset.

i mean, if it got that bad, healing ~4k (including SR pulses) and ending up without any initiative, and still without endurance and still a 3v1 isn’t what’s going to save you. as a thief, you gotta embrace tactical retreats :P

The whole Skill Set set of D/D needs a change.
D/D absolutely is no power Set, nor a clear Condition Set. its currently a Hybrid Set that really works not for none of both preferences.

D/D should become a clear Power Set, that you just can turn with the help of Traits into a Condition Set.

Double Strike > Wild Strike > Lotus Strike.
- Increase the Power of Double Strike form 2x 188 to 2x 250
- Increase the Endurance Gain of Wild Strike from 10 to 20
- Increase the Power of Lotus Strike from 286 to 300, remove the Poison Effect and change it to 5 Stacks of Vulnerability.

When changing to Condition Daggers, Wild Strike gives no Endurance Gain anymore, but instead dazes the foe for a second and deals Poison.
When performing Lotus Strike, it deals then for 5 seconds 3 Stacks of Torment.
D/D should become under Condition Traited Setup a weapon set, that punishes fleeing and alot of moment to make it easier for the D/D to stay near in melee combat without having to rely so muich on Shadow Steps, like playing with the Sword does.

Heart Seeker nearly stays as it is, but should get a trait that makes using it more comfortable and increases its range from 450 to 600. WHat do I mean with more comfortable? By using that said trait, Heart Seeker should receive the same Mechanism like Whirlwind Strike of the Warrior, that Arrow Mechanic, that lets you decide into which direction you leap forward. With the samlike mechanik of HS and such a dquick direction changign mechanic, using HS will become more comfortable for making quick direction changes, so that a Thief could react better with HS on direction changres of a foe to pursuit them better while raising its max range so that they have it easier to pursuit those annoying runaway warriors in WvW

Death Blossom needs a clear buff, in its current form its way too weak and useless in most cases.
While playing it under its Power Setting, Death Blossom should deal an increased amount of Hits.
Instead of 3 hits, it should perform 6 Hits. Instead of peforming 3×201 damage, it should perform 6x 150 Damage. so that this skill benefits more from mechanics that rely on hit chance, critical hits and so that it deals in geneal more damage, so that it actually can do domethign against those total OP self regenerations of warriors for a short moment.
Evade Time should get increase from 0,25 seconds to a full second. 0,25 seconds is ridiculous and helps against nothing in WvW/PvP if you face multiple enemies at the same time.
Under Condition Setup each of the 6 Hits should deal Bleeding (so 6 stacks total to make death blossom more deathly and a real danger. Increase therefore the initiative cost back to 5 under condition setting, This together with the poison and torment of the Auto Attack row should deal with these annoying bunker builds with toal OP self regenerations)

Dancing Dagger Needs to get its damage increased back to how it was before its nerf.
Under Power Settign I mean. Under Condition Setup Cripple should get exchanged with Chill and it removes Boons if the foe is suffering on more than 3 conditions to have another option to annoy those silly bunker builds.

Cloak and Dagger
Remove Vulnerability from it under its Power Setup and reduce its initiative cost from 6 to 5. Change its functionality under a Condition Setup to become a Shadow Step attack, that deals instead of 3 Stacks of Vulnerability 5 Stacks of Vulnerability and Blindness under the cost of 4 Initiative for the cost of getting no stealth from it anymore for the gain of that blindness and more mobility and a bit more dealt Vulnerability.

And for all of this just needs to be changed for example a useless master trait under the Deadly Arts. Dagger Training
Change Dagger Training to a trait, that changes your Dagger Skills between Power and Condition Setup. The increase of the power setup dagger skills will make up for the loss of the 5% damage increase from the old trait version.
Activate that Trait, thats renamed then to Malicious Strikes and it changes your power setup dagger skilsl then to a condition based Setup like described above so that D/D becomes the real Hybrid Weapon Set, where the player can decide, how he wants to use the Daggers and not where the weapon set self enforces on you a certain way of playing build.

Hahaha, what? A 1 second daze on the autoattack chain? On the second hit? Really?

orpheal, are you trying to purposefully kitten up all the thief options at once?

D/D is OBVIOUSLY a power set. the outlier is death blossom. poison is a utility condition, it’s great for making warriors stop outhealing your damage. heartseeker is an executioner skill to finish off low health enemies. backstab is freaking backstab. dancing dagger needs a revamp, which is what this thread is about. CnD hits hard, applies vulnerability (which i still think is useless), and puts you on stealth for a backstab.

hell, D/D was the highest thief burst in the game, and still is (albeit largely weakened since the mug changes). to say it isn’t a power set right now is ridiculous. and those damage buffs are completely unecessary.

BrunoBRS.5178:

orpheal, are you trying to purposefully kitten up all the thief options at once?

D/D is OBVIOUSLY a power set. the outlier is death blossom. poison is a utility condition, it’s great for making warriors stop outhealing your damage. heartseeker is an executioner skill to finish off low health enemies. backstab is freaking backstab. dancing dagger needs a revamp, which is what this thread is about. CnD hits hard, applies vulnerability (which i still think is useless), and puts you on stealth for a backstab.

hell, D/D was the highest thief burst in the game, and still is (albeit largely weakened since the mug changes). to say it isn’t a power set right now is ridiculous. and those damage buffs are completely unecessary.

It’s Hybrid, let’s leave it at that.

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

Dancing Daggers just need to go back to the root — throw 3 daggers to a single target for the price of 4 init without the bouncing (it’s not “bouncing” daggers after all) and causes stacking cripple.

RyuDragnier.9476:

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Warrior hybrid is a sustainy build. Ele hybrid is sustainy. Engineer hybrid is ranged and sustainy.

Squishy and hybrid doesn’t go together, especially in melee range.

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Warrior hybrid is a sustainy build. Ele hybrid is sustainy. Engineer hybrid is ranged and sustainy.

Squishy and hybrid doesn’t go together, especially in melee range.

Err, you’re wrong. Every time you try to build damage as a Thief, you’ll end up to be squishy.

RyuDragnier.9476:

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

utility conditions doesn’t make it a hybrid set. warrior rifle has vulnerability and cripple as well, doesn’t make it a hybrid set.

poison isn’t used for condi damage, poison is used for the healing denial, which is good on any build. it’s actually more common than you’d think, for a guardian to run the sigil that applies poison on hit just to counter enemies with high healing. and they’re not running condi guardian, they just want the utility aspect of it.

I would be fine with change of Death Blossom if I didn’t know thieves using it in solo pve since I really don’t know any war using Rifle for conditions tried using Rifle Butt to proc Distracting Strikes…did not do better than LB.

They would need a compensation.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Warrior hybrid is a sustainy build. Ele hybrid is sustainy. Engineer hybrid is ranged and sustainy.

Squishy and hybrid doesn’t go together, especially in melee range.

Err, you’re wrong. Every time you try to build damage as a Thief, you’ll end up to be squishy.

I did not mention building as damage.

D/D only has 2 issues, death blossom and dancing dagger. The rest fits perfectly into the kit and has no reason to change.

Got your endurance gain AA with poison to hinder their healing, got a gap closer/opener (if need to escape and don’t wish to risk a CnD), and stealth access for your stealth attack (ummm backstab! yeah that’s it.).

Death blossom fits the kit but the numbers are terrible. The evade frame isn’t for either power or condi, all it really does is help a condition build. I can only imagine it was released this way (very few changes, initiative related anyhow) because it has X3 10 second bleeds.

-Make the evade frame cover the full animation and maintain the small aftercast (0.25 seconds? Not even?) to prevent both perma-evading (only to prevent 100% evasion uptime if spammed) and allow it to function as an evasion technique, and lower the bleed duration to 6 seconds. Lastly increase the distance it travels so it has a better chance to connect to enemies (it moves like ~300 units so increase to ~400). Gain some, lose some. As a spam skill it will simply drain you while still having a window to be hit in, but for timed uses it will be reliable.

Dancing dagger conflicts with both p/d and d/d. P/d has body shot which is much better for both catching up and landing a CnD (can’t evade while immobilized) and as a projectile finisher that hits reliably. D/D has heartseeker which is a leap (already stronger than any projectile finisher) and is a suitable gap closer with far more damage tied to it.

-Remove the bounce, increase the projectile speed to hit reliably (but not shoot like a missile) and add poison (3 seconds) to the mix in addition to the short cripple. This helps p/d with condition coverage, it helps d/d condition with both aiding in successfully landing death blossom and adding a condition that you may not of kept on them since cycling an auto attack is risky on any thief build. If need be increase the initiative cost by 1 as well since atm it can be quite frequently tossed but I guarantee that making it hit reliably and adding poison to mix would help out in many ways.

NinjaEd.3946:

D/D only has 2 issues, death blossom and dancing dagger. The rest fits perfectly into the kit and has no reason to change.

Got your endurance gain AA with poison to hinder their healing, got a gap closer/opener (if need to escape and don’t wish to risk a CnD), and stealth access for your stealth attack (ummm backstab! yeah that’s it.).

Death blossom fits the kit but the numbers are terrible. The evade frame isn’t for either power or condi, all it really does is help a condition build. I can only imagine it was released this way (very few changes, initiative related anyhow) because it has X3 10 second bleeds.

-Make the evade frame cover the full animation and maintain the small aftercast (0.25 seconds? Not even?) to prevent both perma-evading (only to prevent 100% evasion uptime if spammed) and allow it to function as an evasion technique, and lower the bleed duration to 6 seconds. Lastly increase the distance it travels so it has a better chance to connect to enemies (it moves like ~300 units so increase to ~400). Gain some, lose some. As a spam skill it will simply drain you while still having a window to be hit in, but for timed uses it will be reliable.

Dancing dagger conflicts with both p/d and d/d. P/d has body shot which is much better for both catching up and landing a CnD (can’t evade while immobilized) and as a projectile finisher that hits reliably. D/D has heartseeker which is a leap (already stronger than any projectile finisher) and is a suitable gap closer with far more damage tied to it.

-Remove the bounce, increase the projectile speed to hit reliably (but not shoot like a missile) and add poison (3 seconds) to the mix in addition to the short cripple. This helps p/d with condition coverage, it helps d/d condition with both aiding in successfully landing death blossom and adding a condition that you may not of kept on them since cycling an auto attack is risky on any thief build. If need be increase the initiative cost by 1 as well since atm it can be quite frequently tossed but I guarantee that making it hit reliably and adding poison to mix would help out in many ways.

to add to what you said…

death blossom: i think that the skill could still be more hybrid. reducing the bleed duration by another second or two isn’t absurd, when the skill hits AoE. then the power scaling could be improved, or just the raw damage outright. point is, this skill needs a place on power builds as well as condi builds.

and on the subject of mobility, i would LOVE if i could aim my death blossom’s direction just like a warrior’s whirlwind attack. no more accidental falls. always have control over where it’s heading. and yeah, i’d like its range to be improved, maybe add a 4th attack to it. of course, all those improvements would mean its cost would have to increase again, but i think it’s a small price to pay for a more mobile, reliable, hybrid skill.

dancing dagger: i don’t think it has to lose its bouncing property just because you added poison to it and a faster speed, especially if the cost would raise to 4 ini. it can’t be overstated how little use this skill sees. personally, i’d also increase its damage just a teensy bit. like, not to make it a damage skill, but just for it to have a somewhat respectable damage. ini cost would be 4 from the current 3.

I’m very sad that death blossom went from one of the best AoE burst directe damange spamable skill in Guild Wars 1 to the current iteration.

Giving dagger autoattack cleave-2 is a bandaid when they should just have given Death Blossom the ability to hit 5 targets and make it do a real amount of direct damage and no bleeds. That way, D/D would have a solution for group content and it’d be good old Death Blossom

stof.9341:

I’m very sad that death blossom went from one of the best AoE burst directe damange spamable skill in Guild Wars 1 to the current iteration.

Giving dagger autoattack cleave-2 is a bandaid when they should just have given Death Blossom the ability to hit 5 targets and make it do a real amount of direct damage and no bleeds. That way, D/D would have a solution for group content and it’d be good old Death Blossom

i loved my GW1 death blossom build T_T

but i’d hardly call it spammable, when you rely on two attacks landing to set it up.

It was VERY spammable in PvE. The core build was even called the “dagger spammer” build : http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dagger_spammer The longest CD of the 3 skills in the chain is 3s.

stof.9341:

It was VERY spammable in PvE. The core build was even called the “dagger spammer” build : http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dagger_spammer The longest CD of the 3 skills in the chain is 3s.

meh, i always saw that as inherent of the assassin profession. i always went for the low CD attacks because otherwise our DPS was crap (which incidentally meant i ended up choosing those 3 skills for my main combo). max out dagger mastery, max out critical strikes, and be the bane of everyone on PvP (except mesmers >.>)

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Warrior hybrid is a sustainy build. Ele hybrid is sustainy. Engineer hybrid is ranged and sustainy.

Squishy and hybrid doesn’t go together, especially in melee range.

Err, you’re wrong. Every time you try to build damage as a Thief, you’ll end up to be squishy.

I did not mention building as damage.

I guess hybrid is no longer a damage oriented build. My bad.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Warrior hybrid is a sustainy build. Ele hybrid is sustainy. Engineer hybrid is ranged and sustainy.

Squishy and hybrid doesn’t go together, especially in melee range.

Err, you’re wrong. Every time you try to build damage as a Thief, you’ll end up to be squishy.

I did not mention building as damage.

I guess hybrid is no longer a damage oriented build. My bad.

You’ll have to clarify what you mean for a meaningful response

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Warrior hybrid is a sustainy build. Ele hybrid is sustainy. Engineer hybrid is ranged and sustainy.

Squishy and hybrid doesn’t go together, especially in melee range.

Err, you’re wrong. Every time you try to build damage as a Thief, you’ll end up to be squishy.

I did not mention building as damage.

I guess hybrid is no longer a damage oriented build. My bad.

You’ll have to clarify what you mean for a meaningful response

You said;

Shockwave.1230:

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Which is wrong, because whether you build power, condition, or hybrid (which means damage + condition) as a Thief you’ll always going to be squishy.

But it seems that the meaning of “hybrid” differs in your interpretation of the word. So it’s my bad for not knowing that the meaning of “hybrid” has shifted from being damage oriented to something else.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Warrior hybrid is a sustainy build. Ele hybrid is sustainy. Engineer hybrid is ranged and sustainy.

Squishy and hybrid doesn’t go together, especially in melee range.

Err, you’re wrong. Every time you try to build damage as a Thief, you’ll end up to be squishy.

I did not mention building as damage.

I guess hybrid is no longer a damage oriented build. My bad.

You’ll have to clarify what you mean for a meaningful response

You said;

Shockwave.1230:

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Which is wrong, because whether you build power, condition, or hybrid (which means damage + condition) as a Thief you’ll always going to be squishy.

But it seems that the meaning of “hybrid” differs in your interpretation of the word. So it’s my bad for not knowing that the meaning of “hybrid” has shifted from being damage oriented to something else.

All I was pointing out with that statement is why hybrid doesn’t work with D/D on thief. D/D lacks survivability because of how squishy it is. This makes building as a hybrid not work well. squish + hybrid + melee is no bueno.

I see best results with D/D building as power, but it’s still not great.

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Warrior hybrid is a sustainy build. Ele hybrid is sustainy. Engineer hybrid is ranged and sustainy.

Squishy and hybrid doesn’t go together, especially in melee range.

Err, you’re wrong. Every time you try to build damage as a Thief, you’ll end up to be squishy.

I did not mention building as damage.

I guess hybrid is no longer a damage oriented build. My bad.

You’ll have to clarify what you mean for a meaningful response

You said;

Shockwave.1230:

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Which is wrong, because whether you build power, condition, or hybrid (which means damage + condition) as a Thief you’ll always going to be squishy.

But it seems that the meaning of “hybrid” differs in your interpretation of the word. So it’s my bad for not knowing that the meaning of “hybrid” has shifted from being damage oriented to something else.

All I was pointing out with that statement is why hybrid doesn’t work with D/D on thief. D/D lacks survivability because of how squishy it is. This makes building as a hybrid not work well. squish + hybrid + melee is no bueno.

I see best results with D/D building as power, but it’s still not great.

That’s why you’re wrong. Regardless of which damage build you choose (power, condition, hybrid) as a Thief, you’ll still be squishy. So basically what you’re saying is, hybrid is a “no bueno” for Thief because there’s no other weapon set that will allow hybrid at range — oh wait, P/P and Shortbow are godly as a hybrid weapon of choice. Please…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shockwave.1230:

RyuDragnier.9476:

METAShift.2913:

Eh, I wouldn’t call it hybrid, it’s on the same level as the warrior rifle – bleed on autoattack while the rest of the set had nothing to do with conditions whatsoever. Since anet changed the warrior rifle to be more consistent, I think d/d should get the same treatment.

Poison on autoattack, Bleeding on Death Blossom, Cripple on Dancing Dagger. It also does good DD. It’s a hybrid sir, deal with it.

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Warrior hybrid is a sustainy build. Ele hybrid is sustainy. Engineer hybrid is ranged and sustainy.

Squishy and hybrid doesn’t go together, especially in melee range.

Err, you’re wrong. Every time you try to build damage as a Thief, you’ll end up to be squishy.

I did not mention building as damage.

I guess hybrid is no longer a damage oriented build. My bad.

You’ll have to clarify what you mean for a meaningful response

You said;

Shockwave.1230:

The problem with considering it hybrid is that, unlike any other hybrid build, it’s melee range on a squish profession.

Which is wrong, because whether you build power, condition, or hybrid (which means damage + condition) as a Thief you’ll always going to be squishy.

But it seems that the meaning of “hybrid” differs in your interpretation of the word. So it’s my bad for not knowing that the meaning of “hybrid” has shifted from being damage oriented to something else.

All I was pointing out with that statement is why hybrid doesn’t work with D/D on thief. D/D lacks survivability because of how squishy it is. This makes building as a hybrid not work well. squish + hybrid + melee is no bueno.

I see best results with D/D building as power, but it’s still not great.

That’s why you’re wrong. Regardless of which damage build you choose (power, condition, hybrid) as a Thief, you’ll still be squishy. So basically what you’re saying is, hybrid is a “no bueno” for Thief because there’s no other weapon set that will allow hybrid at range — oh wait, P/P and Shortbow are godly as a hybrid weapon of choice. Please…

I don’t agree with shortbow, but pistol is good as a hybrid weapon, because it’s ranged, which is part of what I’ve been saying.

Dagger/Dagger puts the thief in a situation where you are melee and squishy, which means hybrid damage is no bueno. Perhaps I should have been more clear.