Guild Wars 2

I agree with that one ! It’s a simple change that doesn’t constraint us to use two trait lines to boost venoms.

I could get behind this as well.

Yes please +1.
With the way a venom build works, there’s really no reason to spec Leeching Venoms. You can slot a venom by itself more effectively now but the one trait doesn’t provide enough utility to take the whole traitline. You just won’t be stealthing around with a venom build.

Revealed is the opposite of Stealth…so it doesn’t belong in Shadow Arts. If it is “Shadow Training” where it gives evasion frames to all shadowstep skills, then sure why not.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Revealed is the opposite of Stealth…so it doesn’t belong in Shadow Arts.

I’m going to disagree with you there. Revealed isn’t the opposite of Stealth, it is an effect of stealth. The more times you break stealth, the more use Revealed Training gets. Shadow Arts helps this by giving a base duration buff on stealth, giving you more time to break stealth without it just expiring (preventing Revealed).

+1

+1 Swapping these two traits would greatly help my stealth/venom support roamer remain viable.

Chrury.4627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Revealed is the opposite of Stealth…so it doesn’t belong in Shadow Arts.

I’m going to disagree with you there. Revealed isn’t the opposite of Stealth, it is an effect of stealth. The more times you break stealth, the more use Revealed Training gets. Shadow Arts helps this by giving a base duration buff on stealth, giving you more time to break stealth without it just expiring (preventing Revealed).

Hidden Killer from CS is more appropriate to be in SA than Revealed Training.

It is my strong opinion that the Revealed mechanic should also be abolished so we don’t have to deal with a nonsensical and gimmicky trait like Revealed Training.

I am not against Leeching going to DA because it makes sense, but if DA don’t want Revealed Training, they can just delete it (or make it baseline) and give SA a more appropriate trait.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Chrury.4627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Revealed is the opposite of Stealth…so it doesn’t belong in Shadow Arts.

I’m going to disagree with you there. Revealed isn’t the opposite of Stealth, it is an effect of stealth. The more times you break stealth, the more use Revealed Training gets. Shadow Arts helps this by giving a base duration buff on stealth, giving you more time to break stealth without it just expiring (preventing Revealed).

Hidden Killer from CS is more appropriate to be in SA than Revealed Training.

It is my strong opinion that the Revealed mechanic should also be abolished so we don’t have to deal with a nonsensical and gimmicky trait like Revealed Training.

I am not against Leeching going to DA because it makes sense, but if DA don’t want Revealed Training, they can just delete it (or make it baseline) and give SA a more appropriate trait.

No, the auto-crit skill belongs more in the trait lined named Critical Strikes than the one that provides mixed bonuses as a consequence of stealth.

I know you don’t like Revealed or stealth, but the mechanics are intertwined and should be. We had this disagreement before on my ES topic, and despite your strong feelings about Revealed, you are in the minority who think this way, because it’s both mechanically and thematically sound.

If SA provided multiple revealed-bonus trait options, it’d be suited best for the line of anything, as then the whole line would encompass all aspects of stealth play. It makes the most sense in DA at the moment, but leeching venoms makes more sense in DA than SA by miles, and RT can be argued to fit it both.

Of course, if they redacted the 1s ICD on stealth skills and put RT in SA, the Deadeye would make even more sense and be even more conceptually sound.

Doggie.3184:

Leeching Venoms goes hand in hand with the theme of Lotus Poison, Potent Poison and Dagger Training traits in Deadly Arts since it’s all related to poisoning your weapons. Revealed Training is related to the stealth mechanic, which Shadow Arts is supposed to augment. Swapping these two positions would allow venom support users to decide weather they want to use a stealth build or an evasion build.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Hidden Killer from CS is more appropriate to be in SA than Revealed Training.

I actually suggested all three of these changes in my Trait Shakeup thread two months ago.

+1
it just looks like someone accidently swichted those traits out

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Chrury.4627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Revealed is the opposite of Stealth…so it doesn’t belong in Shadow Arts.

I’m going to disagree with you there. Revealed isn’t the opposite of Stealth, it is an effect of stealth. The more times you break stealth, the more use Revealed Training gets. Shadow Arts helps this by giving a base duration buff on stealth, giving you more time to break stealth without it just expiring (preventing Revealed).

Hidden Killer from CS is more appropriate to be in SA than Revealed Training.

It is my strong opinion that the Revealed mechanic should also be abolished so we don’t have to deal with a nonsensical and gimmicky trait like Revealed Training.

I am not against Leeching going to DA because it makes sense, but if DA don’t want Revealed Training, they can just delete it (or make it baseline) and give SA a more appropriate trait.

You know, I like that idea. Revealed Training becomes baseline, move Leeching Venoms to DA, move Hidden Killer to SA (may have to modify it or change things around since it’s moving a grandmaster to a master trait slot), and then come up with something else for critical strikes. Though Hidden Killer fits the theme of both trait lines, so it might be easier to come up with a master level trait to replace Leeching Venoms, and leave Hidden Killer where it is, as the stealth grandmaster option of the critical strikes line.

That said, something might need to be addressed in SA. With Venomshare going baseline, a lot of people don’t see a need for SA, and aside from mob-skipping in dungeons, I can see why that is. I like the idea of having a trait line dedicated to stealth, but given how little it’s used in PvE (I won’t speak for PvP), this might be a problem. Might. I don’t know how this will actually play out yet.

DeceiverX.8361:

Of course, if they redacted the 1s ICD on stealth skills and put RT in SA, the Deadeye would make even more sense and be even more conceptually sound.

So all these are just setups to make Deadeye a thing. lol

I really hate Revealed and all things built around it. So I guess, we’ll be forever in disagreement.

EDIT: Even the mobs with stealth are not a big fan of Revealed. Those White Mantle Thiefs glitches when revealed. lol

Doggie.3184:

So with recent changes this would make a lot more sense.

Leeching Venoms goes hand in hand with the theme of Lotus Poison, Potent Poison and Dagger Training traits in Deadly Arts since it’s all related to poisoning your weapons. Revealed Training is related to the stealth mechanic, which Shadow Arts is supposed to augment. Swapping these two positions would allow venom support users to decide weather they want to use a stealth build or an evasion build.

The problem really between the SA, DA and ACRO trees. Right now SA modifies 2 utilities lines; venom and deceptions. Acro modifies none. Probably what need to happen is that Traps should move to Acro, Venoms should move to DA and SA should only modify deceptions.

And reincrease the radius tbh. At least on trait, since the might was removed anyway.

NO. Deadly arts is a Dps line (2 direct damage modifiers 10% 20%) +200 power while revealed is the only thing that keeps D/D somewhat viable in pve

This is a good idea

I agree also – the random venom trait in shadow arts does not make sense.

I agree. LV is great, RT is terrible.

Put them in the corresponding trait lines so I have even less reason to ever look at SA!

perry.9645:

NO. Deadly arts is a Dps line (2 direct damage modifiers 10% 20%) +200 power while revealed is the only thing that keeps D/D somewhat viable in pve

If you’re using Stealth to proc Reveal then you could still use RT in Shadow Arts line where it makes more sense and gain the added benefits to stealth that it gives. I don’t use Stealth with Venoms so the rest of the new SA tree never applies to me.

Also; Life Leech = DPS increase.

Great suggestion.

Doggie.3184:

perry.9645:

NO. Deadly arts is a Dps line (2 direct damage modifiers 10% 20%) +200 power while revealed is the only thing that keeps D/D somewhat viable in pve

If you’re using Stealth to proc Reveal then you could still use RT in Shadow Arts line where it makes more sense and gain the added benefits to stealth that it gives. I don’t use Stealth with Venoms so the rest of the new SA tree never applies to me.

Also; Life Leech = DPS increase.

why would you use Shadowarts over a traitline with 2 modifiers in a dps build? and lol to lifeleech being a dps increase yeah sure take venoms instead of signets that give 180 stats and tell me how much more dps that is >.<

perry.9645:

NO. Deadly arts is a Dps line (2 direct damage modifiers 10% 20%) +200 power while revealed is the only thing that keeps D/D somewhat viable in pve

Deadly Arts is also the Condition Damage line with Potent Poison, Dagger Training, and Serpent’s Touch.

I do agree that a different thing should be swapped though. Deadly Trapper.

Given that they can be set while in stealth, traps seem like they fit the shadow arts’ lurk in stealth playstyle a lot better than venoms do.

So, the condi build in deadly arts would be: Dagger Training, Leeching Venoms, and Potent Poison
While Power would remain as is with mug, revealed training, executioner.

While also freeing up condi builds to take Trickery instead of shadow arts, which should theoretically help them to get closer to viability.

Eponet.4829:

perry.9645:

NO. Deadly arts is a Dps line (2 direct damage modifiers 10% 20%) +200 power while revealed is the only thing that keeps D/D somewhat viable in pve

Deadly Arts is also the Condition Damage line with Potent Poison, Dagger Training, and Serpent’s Touch.

I do agree that a different thing should be swapped though. Deadly Trapper.

Given that they can be set while in stealth, traps seem like they fit the shadow arts’ lurk in stealth playstyle a lot better than venoms do.

So, the condi build in deadly arts would be: Dagger Training, Leeching Venoms, and Potent Poison
While Power would remain as is with mug, revealed training, executioner.

While also freeing up condi builds to take Trickery instead of shadow arts, which should theoretically help them to get closer to viability.

The issue with that suggestion is now you are taking the Trap traits (Trapper’s Respite and Deadly Traps and separating them into two different lines). This could be fixed by combing those two traits though.

I really really wish venom traits were in deadly arts. They just seem like a deadly arts skill.
But lets be real in this current meta shadow arts is useless so the only good trait (leeching venoms) is probably the only reason people still use it. If they removed leeching venom they would have to rework the entire trait-line to make it usable again. Everything the traitline offers is countered by every revenant that brings legendary dragon stance and all the other reveals around.

Artaz.3819:

Eponet.4829:

perry.9645:

NO. Deadly arts is a Dps line (2 direct damage modifiers 10% 20%) +200 power while revealed is the only thing that keeps D/D somewhat viable in pve

Deadly Arts is also the Condition Damage line with Potent Poison, Dagger Training, and Serpent’s Touch.

I do agree that a different thing should be swapped though. Deadly Trapper.

Given that they can be set while in stealth, traps seem like they fit the shadow arts’ lurk in stealth playstyle a lot better than venoms do.

So, the condi build in deadly arts would be: Dagger Training, Leeching Venoms, and Potent Poison
While Power would remain as is with mug, revealed training, executioner.

While also freeing up condi builds to take Trickery instead of shadow arts, which should theoretically help them to get closer to viability.

The issue with that suggestion is now you are taking the Trap traits (Trapper’s Respite and Deadly Traps and separating them into two different lines). This could be fixed by combing those two traits though.

Combining is fine by me as long as it gets Leeching Venoms into it’s home in Deadly Arts where it belongs. I believe swapping is the best choice though since Revealed Training still makes more sense in Shadow Arts. For Traps I’d rather they all worked better together and on their own so that choosing between them or Venoms for builds would actually mean something more.

Moving that trait into deadly arts is a good idea but changing it with revealed training is bad because sa supposed to be defensive, and i dont want to see +200 power thieves with sa/daredevil

Just delete Revealed Training. Nobody wants it when it was in GM and nobody wants it now that it’s in Master — Panic Strike is obviously more valuable for that slot. Then you can put Leeching in its former spot. Revealed is a complete opposite of stealth, thus it doesn’t belong in SA.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just delete Revealed Training. Nobody wants it when it was in GM and nobody wants it now that it’s in Master — Panic Strike is obviously more valuable for that slot. Then you can put Leeching in its former spot. Revealed is a complete opposite of stealth, thus it doesn’t belong in SA.

You forget majority of thieves…. actually pve and they probably won’t welcome such change.

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just delete Revealed Training. Nobody wants it when it was in GM and nobody wants it now that it’s in Master — Panic Strike is obviously more valuable for that slot. Then you can put Leeching in its former spot. Revealed is a complete opposite of stealth, thus it doesn’t belong in SA.

You forget majority of thieves…. actually pve and they probably won’t welcome such change.

The Devs can give the Thief 10 stacks of might for 5s after a stealth attack and call it Shadow Predator trait or something. This way it benefits both types of damage (power and condition) and not just power, then you can put that in Shadow Arts. I can assure you, there are so much of other buffs in PvE (easy Bloodlust +250 charge) that +200 power will not be missed.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just delete Revealed Training. Nobody wants it when it was in GM and nobody wants it now that it’s in Master — Panic Strike is obviously more valuable for that slot. Then you can put Leeching in its former spot. Revealed is a complete opposite of stealth, thus it doesn’t belong in SA.

You forget majority of thieves…. actually pve and they probably won’t welcome such change.

The Devs can give the Thief 10 stacks of might for 5s after a stealth attack and call it Shadow Predator trait or something. This way it benefits both types of damage (power and condition) and not just power, then you can put that in Shadow Arts. I can assure you, there are so much of other buffs in PvE (easy Bloodlust +250 charge) that +200 power will not be missed.

I would welcome it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just delete Revealed Training. Nobody wants it when it was in GM and nobody wants it now that it’s in Master — Panic Strike is obviously more valuable for that slot. Then you can put Leeching in its former spot. Revealed is a complete opposite of stealth, thus it doesn’t belong in SA.

You forget majority of thieves…. actually pve and they probably won’t welcome such change.

The Devs can give the Thief 10 stacks of might for 5s after a stealth attack and call it Shadow Predator trait or something. This way it benefits both types of damage (power and condition) and not just power, then you can put that in Shadow Arts. I can assure you, there are so much of other buffs in PvE (easy Bloodlust +250 charge) that +200 power will not be missed.

Might means very little in high end PVE. It’s why Power Necro/Reaper has always done so poorly, sure they can self stack 25 might easily, but that nets them 0 extra damage when you’re getting it capped by a PS warrior or one of the other options. Coefficients on attacks, damage modifiers, and stacking stat boosts are where it’s at. So the 200 power would be much better for PVE. If you figure 200 power out of what, a buffed like 4k, that loss is about 5%, when you’re talking about ~30k dps potential that’s a 1500dps loss and would likely make D/D no longer good in the few situations where it was. Can’t say I’m a fan. Replace it with a strait 5% damage modifier and I still wouldn’t be a fan because then staff would get it all the time as well boosting that overall but then there wouldn’t be a secondary option, just staff.

Jerus.4350:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Just delete Revealed Training. Nobody wants it when it was in GM and nobody wants it now that it’s in Master — Panic Strike is obviously more valuable for that slot. Then you can put Leeching in its former spot. Revealed is a complete opposite of stealth, thus it doesn’t belong in SA.

You forget majority of thieves…. actually pve and they probably won’t welcome such change.

The Devs can give the Thief 10 stacks of might for 5s after a stealth attack and call it Shadow Predator trait or something. This way it benefits both types of damage (power and condition) and not just power, then you can put that in Shadow Arts. I can assure you, there are so much of other buffs in PvE (easy Bloodlust +250 charge) that +200 power will not be missed.

Might means very little in high end PVE. It’s why Power Necro/Reaper has always done so poorly, sure they can self stack 25 might easily, but that nets them 0 extra damage when you’re getting it capped by a PS warrior or one of the other options. Coefficients on attacks, damage modifiers, and stacking stat boosts are where it’s at. So the 200 power would be much better for PVE. If you figure 200 power out of what, a buffed like 4k, that loss is about 5%, when you’re talking about ~30k dps potential that’s a 1500dps loss and would likely make D/D no longer good in the few situations where it was. Can’t say I’m a fan. Replace it with a strait 5% damage modifier and I still wouldn’t be a fan because then staff would get it all the time as well boosting that overall but then there wouldn’t be a secondary option, just staff.

Not sure what you’re talking about but 10 stacks of Might = 300 power. It also grants 300 condition damage. When applied to Thief, they benefit from both power and condition which is basically no change in their damage output. The real difference is that Might is usable for both power and condition build, thus +200 power does nothing for condition build — Might buff solves that problem.

Comparing Thief and Necro is not a valid comparison. Power Reaper might not benefit that much from stacks of Might, but I can assure you that Condition Reaper loves it.

10 stacks of might while I have a ps warrior keeping me at 25 stacks of might gives me…. 0 stacks of additional might which means 0 extra damage, simple as that.

The point is, and why I compared it to necro, is that in a solo setting the might is great and benefits everyone in that way. But, when you’re in a team you have access to group might, which you can easily cover the group to 25 stacks with 1 or a few people working together. That’s why I compared to Necro which in a solo setting does pretty well because of all the easy might access but in group play they scale poorly as they don’t have very many modifiers and stackable increases.

To put it in numerical form which I think makes it easiest to understand. Say might gives 1% per stack. So I do 4k dps base, I get 10 stacks of might making it 4.4k dps, alternatively I get a 10% damage increase doing 4.4kdps. Now put me in a group with 25 stacks of might on both options. The first already had 10 so only gets 15 additional stacks for a total of 25% increase and 5k total dps. The damage modifier stacks, so the 25% increase from might, getting the full 25 because he had no previous stacks would net you 4.4k * 1.25 = 5500dps.

So yeah, might is nice but not a replacement for damage modifiers and stackable additions.

Jerus.4350:

10 stacks of might while I have a ps warrior keeping me at 25 stacks of might gives me…. 0 stacks of additional might which means 0 extra damage, simple as that.

Um, what if 10 of those 25 is from you own? O.o?

The point is, and why I compared it to necro, is that in a solo setting the might is great and benefits everyone in that way. But, when you’re in a team you have access to group might, which you can easily cover the group to 25 stacks with 1 or a few people working together. That’s why I compared to Necro which in a solo setting does pretty well because of all the easy might access but in group play they scale poorly as they don’t have very many modifiers and stackable increases.

To put it in numerical form which I think makes it easiest to understand. Say might gives 1% per stack. So I do 4k dps base, I get 10 stacks of might making it 4.4k dps, alternatively I get a 10% damage increase doing 4.4kdps. Now put me in a group with 25 stacks of might on both options. The first already had 10 so only gets 15 additional stacks for a total of 25% increase and 5k total dps. The damage modifier stacks, so the 25% increase from might, getting the full 25 because he had no previous stacks would net you 4.4k * 1.25 = 5500dps.

So yeah, might is nice but not a replacement for damage modifiers and stackable additions.

This argument is flawed. If that is the case, then why bother adding Might stacks when the Thief use Unload? Or why even have traits like Signet of Power or Deadly Trapper? They exist because it benefits the Thief regardless whether they are in a team or not.

Besides going in stealth just to trigger Revealed Training is already a DPS loss, so the benefit that you think you’re getting from Revealed Training is nothing but imaginary.

Jerus.4350:

10 stacks of might while I have a ps warrior keeping me at 25 stacks of might gives me…. 0 stacks of additional might which means 0 extra damage, simple as that.

---

So yeah, might is nice but not a replacement for damage modifiers and stackable additions.

This is exactly why PvP needs to be balanced separately from PvE.

The Thief is suffering from an identity-crisis. It is not built for team-fighting, but it requires a team in order to fight.

Personally, I view the Thief as an independent roamer. In that case, Might can be very advantageous compared to simple increases to power.

Only when supported by Might from teammates would the boon-cap be an issue. But the Thief isn’t really built for that… at least not in 5v5 Conquest.

My own desire is for the Thief to be given more independence. Being able to fight more effectively without support from teammates. But that goes far beyond a simple damage increase.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jerus.4350:

10 stacks of might while I have a ps warrior keeping me at 25 stacks of might gives me…. 0 stacks of additional might which means 0 extra damage, simple as that.

Um, what if 10 of those 25 is from you own? O.o?

The point is, and why I compared it to necro, is that in a solo setting the might is great and benefits everyone in that way. But, when you’re in a team you have access to group might, which you can easily cover the group to 25 stacks with 1 or a few people working together. That’s why I compared to Necro which in a solo setting does pretty well because of all the easy might access but in group play they scale poorly as they don’t have very many modifiers and stackable increases.

To put it in numerical form which I think makes it easiest to understand. Say might gives 1% per stack. So I do 4k dps base, I get 10 stacks of might making it 4.4k dps, alternatively I get a 10% damage increase doing 4.4kdps. Now put me in a group with 25 stacks of might on both options. The first already had 10 so only gets 15 additional stacks for a total of 25% increase and 5k total dps. The damage modifier stacks, so the 25% increase from might, getting the full 25 because he had no previous stacks would net you 4.4k * 1.25 = 5500dps.

So yeah, might is nice but not a replacement for damage modifiers and stackable additions.

This argument is flawed. If that is the case, then why bother adding Might stacks when the Thief use Unload? Or why even have traits like Signet of Power or Deadly Trapper? They exist because it benefits the Thief regardless whether they are in a team or not.

Besides going in stealth just to trigger Revealed Training is already a DPS loss, so the benefit that you think you’re getting from Revealed Training is nothing but imaginary.

It’s called opportunity cost and we’re comparing revealed training which is a +200 power increase that naturally happens in the D/D rotation of CnD into backstab every 2-3 auto chains.

I’m not saying + might effects are bad, it’s that saying “giving +might will work and make them just as good in PVE” which is simply false considering that the net gain would be zilch in high end PVE.

Simply put, losing Revealed training would result in a very rough estimate of 5% damage loss on D/D thief in a raid (or really any organize PVE group) setting even with the +10 might you offer as an alternative.

Kageseigi.2150:

Jerus.4350:

10 stacks of might while I have a ps warrior keeping me at 25 stacks of might gives me…. 0 stacks of additional might which means 0 extra damage, simple as that.

---

So yeah, might is nice but not a replacement for damage modifiers and stackable additions.

This is exactly why PvP needs to be balanced separately from PvE.

The Thief is suffering from an identity-crisis. It is not built for team-fighting, but it requires a team in order to fight.

Personally, I view the Thief as an independent roamer. In that case, Might can be very advantageous compared to simple increases to power.

Only when supported by Might from teammates would the boon-cap be an issue. But the Thief isn’t really built for that… at least not in 5v5 Conquest.

My own desire is for the Thief to be given more independence. Being able to fight more effectively without support from teammates. But that goes far beyond a simple damage increase.

The question is not as complex or philosophical as you’re going. It was pointed out that reveal training is important to the PVE D/D build, an alternative of Might was suggested, and I’m just pointing out that in the PVE meta it’s more or less ineffective thanks to PS warriors mainly but even Ele, Engi, Rev, and even Guard providing solid group might that as a team is easy to cap with just 1 or 2 of these.

Jerus.4350:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jerus.4350:

10 stacks of might while I have a ps warrior keeping me at 25 stacks of might gives me…. 0 stacks of additional might which means 0 extra damage, simple as that.

Um, what if 10 of those 25 is from you own? O.o?

The point is, and why I compared it to necro, is that in a solo setting the might is great and benefits everyone in that way. But, when you’re in a team you have access to group might, which you can easily cover the group to 25 stacks with 1 or a few people working together. That’s why I compared to Necro which in a solo setting does pretty well because of all the easy might access but in group play they scale poorly as they don’t have very many modifiers and stackable increases.

To put it in numerical form which I think makes it easiest to understand. Say might gives 1% per stack. So I do 4k dps base, I get 10 stacks of might making it 4.4k dps, alternatively I get a 10% damage increase doing 4.4kdps. Now put me in a group with 25 stacks of might on both options. The first already had 10 so only gets 15 additional stacks for a total of 25% increase and 5k total dps. The damage modifier stacks, so the 25% increase from might, getting the full 25 because he had no previous stacks would net you 4.4k * 1.25 = 5500dps.

So yeah, might is nice but not a replacement for damage modifiers and stackable additions.

This argument is flawed. If that is the case, then why bother adding Might stacks when the Thief use Unload? Or why even have traits like Signet of Power or Deadly Trapper? They exist because it benefits the Thief regardless whether they are in a team or not.

Besides going in stealth just to trigger Revealed Training is already a DPS loss, so the benefit that you think you’re getting from Revealed Training is nothing but imaginary.

It’s called opportunity cost and we’re comparing revealed training which is a +200 power increase that naturally happens in the D/D rotation of CnD into backstab every 2-3 auto chains.

I’m not saying + might effects are bad, it’s that saying “giving +might will work and make them just as good in PVE” which is simply false considering that the net gain would be zilch in high end PVE.

Simply put, losing Revealed training would result in a very rough estimate of 5% damage loss on D/D thief in a raid (or really any organize PVE group) setting even with the +10 might you offer as an alternative.

In raid, D/D simply auto-attack if you’re interested in overall damage. In the same time frame it takes D/D to CnD→BS, their auto attack could have dealt more damage. The same reason why Staff don’t use Vault as part of their rotation even though it deals more damage than BS in a shorter amount of time of execution.

The DPS loss in performing non-instant skill is not worth doing. The benefit you think you have under Revealed Training is a myth, because in that three seconds, you’re simply catching up to the DPS loss you’ve suffered performing CnD→BS. Besides, Revealed Training only benefits one full auto-attack chain then it’s gone.

In non-raid circumstances, Might outperforms the +200 power from Revealed Training — and raid is such a small percentage of the game in terms of size and impact.

Don’t forget Lead attacks which requires that you use initiative to obtain. Making the BS rotations even more important. I haven’t really sat down and tested it but I do know the rotation is higher damage than strait autos. How much is revealed training and lead attacks though I’m not sure.

And it’s not just raids, any organized grouping will have some form of group might production, there are enough options. Guardians can actually stack 20+ stacks now for the group between Empowering Might and Scepter Symbol.

Anyways, if you want to change it so badly, 5% damage while wielding a dagger would work

Jerus.4350:

Don’t forget Lead attacks which requires that you use initiative to obtain. Making the BS rotations even more important. I haven’t really sat down and tested it but I do know the rotation is higher damage than strait autos. How much is revealed training and lead attacks though I’m not sure.

And it’s not just raids, any organized grouping will have some form of group might production, there are enough options. Guardians can actually stack 20+ stacks now for the group between Empowering Might and Scepter Symbol.

Anyways, if you want to change it so badly, 5% damage while wielding a dagger would work

Yes, a straight up buff to Dagger (again…) is better than what Revealed Training can give. However, the problem with that is Stealth Attacks are not exclusive to daggers.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jerus.4350:

Don’t forget Lead attacks which requires that you use initiative to obtain. Making the BS rotations even more important. I haven’t really sat down and tested it but I do know the rotation is higher damage than strait autos. How much is revealed training and lead attacks though I’m not sure.

And it’s not just raids, any organized grouping will have some form of group might production, there are enough options. Guardians can actually stack 20+ stacks now for the group between Empowering Might and Scepter Symbol.

Anyways, if you want to change it so badly, 5% damage while wielding a dagger would work

Yes, a straight up buff to Dagger (again…) is better than what Revealed Training can give. However, the problem with that is Stealth Attacks are not exclusive to daggers.

Yeah, and they’ll do what they’ll do. I just had to point out that might doesn’t have the same value in organized PVE and additions to dagger specifically would be the only way to maintain the status quo on that end. Didn’t mean for it to turn into a long debate

Jerus.4350:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jerus.4350:

Don’t forget Lead attacks which requires that you use initiative to obtain. Making the BS rotations even more important. I haven’t really sat down and tested it but I do know the rotation is higher damage than strait autos. How much is revealed training and lead attacks though I’m not sure.

And it’s not just raids, any organized grouping will have some form of group might production, there are enough options. Guardians can actually stack 20+ stacks now for the group between Empowering Might and Scepter Symbol.

Anyways, if you want to change it so badly, 5% damage while wielding a dagger would work

Yes, a straight up buff to Dagger (again…) is better than what Revealed Training can give. However, the problem with that is Stealth Attacks are not exclusive to daggers.

Yeah, and they’ll do what they’ll do. I just had to point out that might doesn’t have the same value in organized PVE and additions to dagger specifically would be the only way to maintain the status quo on that end. Didn’t mean for it to turn into a long debate

It’s more like a brainstorming than a debate. lol

I heard the next balance update is coming soon (next month?)
Hope this is considered. =))

I’m sad naow, guiz.

Late to the party here, but I’m in favour of the proposal.

As people have pointed out, the more venoms you have, the less likely that you are to actually be able to fit any stealth into your build. Set up a venoms build with LV as it currently stands, and there’s a good chance that the remaining SA traits are basically a matter of choosing the least useless for you. Particularly if you’re using staff or sword/pistol as your melee choices.

+1 Switch these traits

As Jerus pointed out this might be a bad idea. It would mean screwing over the only viable Raid builds thieves have in order to help out a build designed around roaming in WvW. A simple switch would not suffice.

They already killed Rev’s raid viability because of WvW.

Ging.6485:

They already killed Rev’s raid viability because of WvW.

This has already been proven as mathematically false. People seriously overreacted because something blatantly OP got nerfed into being reasonable.

Hell, if it exposes the rest of the power creep from HoT and gets it nerfed, win-win for everyone.