Guild Wars 2

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

Invulnerability would be so much better than going invisible, I’ll take 1 please!

then escapes will be guaranteed and good players wouldn’t be able to just ignore a large portion of my defense!

I doubt non thieves would prefer to sit there watching a thief /dance while being able to do absolutely nothing to them though, only people like you really find stealth that bad and anyone can check your post history and see what I mean by “people like you”

In reality you really cannot compare the two, only the dregs of pvp see invisibility as anything close to on par with invuln

@OP do you genuinely NOT like fighting good thieves? seriously? No matter what I play, the most fun is vs stealth heavy thieves. All other fights are usually formulaic and end before they start based on spec.

I would rather fight thieves with invulnerability, I main a warrior.

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

LF4M thiefs Fractal 5000+. No noobs. NO WARRIORS!!! NO GAURDIANS!!!

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

Because we currently don’t do any of that with how stealth works but we are still totally vulnerable to any attacks that happen to come our way including cc’s and stuns etc, invuln, specially if it worked every way stealth does now except invulnerable instead of invisible would be infinitely better.

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

As a ranger class, I’m all for fighting an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief.

What a Great Topic and Idea to your experimental illustration OP

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You are estimating your chances under the erroneous assumption that invulnerable thieves would play/fight like stealthed ones.

this is of course working on the assumption that it, like stealth, is not the boon variant (aka uncorruptable)

This would be way too powerful, but if you really wanted I’d take invuln instead of stealth.

I just don’t see the point. Playing with and against stealth requires skill. Throwing the enemy off and slipping in and out of combat is kind of the point of the class, not just going beastmode and staying in the fray the whole time.

Kyrion.2749:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You are estimating your chances under the erroneous assumption that invulnerable thieves would play/fight like stealthed ones.

How would it be different? Invul would be lost on attack just like stealth so the same rules would apply.

bhagwad.4281:

Kyrion.2749:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You are estimating your chances under the erroneous assumption that invulnerable thieves would play/fight like stealthed ones.

How would it be different? Invul would be lost on attack just like stealth so the same rules would apply.

Because then there would be no such thing as a GC thief and everyone would play bunker or some kind of tank offshoot while maximizing their invul duration to just troll around the field and lure people into traps. Stealth is designed to throw people off and allow the class to be slippery if they’re any good, otherwise they just die to AoE damage or lose in a duel to someone who knows how thieves play and understands what their next move would/should be.

The change would just turn them into predictable on/off switches constantly going form full tank to squish with no real escape/disruption mechanic. You might as well just play a GS warrior.

DeceiverX.8361:

bhagwad.4281:

Kyrion.2749:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You are estimating your chances under the erroneous assumption that invulnerable thieves would play/fight like stealthed ones.

How would it be different? Invul would be lost on attack just like stealth so the same rules would apply.

Because then there would be no such thing as a GC thief and everyone would play bunker or some kind of tank offshoot while maximizing their invul duration to just troll around the field and lure people into traps. Stealth is designed to throw people off and allow the class to be slippery if they’re any good, otherwise they just die to AoE damage or lose in a duel to someone who knows how thieves play and understands what their next move would/should be.

The change would just turn them into predictable on/off switches constantly going form full tank to squish with no real escape/disruption mechanic. You might as well just play a GS warrior.

So if you’re a thief would you be more effective or less effective with this change?

invulnerability, lool
then the drama begins………

Build full GC, walk around invulnerable when possible and kill people like Bhagwad easily with absolutely no way to counter them (in fact removing many counters)

Sure they can see you but theres nothing they can do about you unlike stealth where they can’t see you once you enter it but they can do lots to stop you.

Of course people like Bhagwad would have you believe thieves are permanently stealthed and invincible while stealthed already so..

Dasorine.1964:

Build full GC, walk around invulnerable when possible and kill people like Bhagwad easily with absolutely no way to counter them (in fact removing many counters)

Sure they can see you but theres nothing they can do about you unlike stealth where they can’t see you once you enter it but they can do lots to stop you.

Of course people like Bhagwad would have you believe thieves are permanently stealthed and invincible while stealthed already so..

Lol – now you’re just making stuff up. I never said that stealthed thieves were invincible. You made that pretty leap all on your own.

So far though, two responses from non thieves. And both would prefer fighting invuln opponents over stealth. Not counting myself of course.

Any other non thieves would like to weigh in?

As someone who understands and plays well both against and as stealth, I personally know it would be a huge nerf to me and would honestly just kind of make the class boring. It’d take a lot of the strategy away from playing.

What this change effectively does it makes it easier for the bad thieves to do better because they won’t be taking damage anymore (they shouldn’t be to begin with is the issue), and it hinders the good thieves from playing their enemy, meanwhile just making it that much easier for all of their opponents to predict their movement. The unpredictability is what makes the class fun and have a really high skill cap. Yes there are pugs who abuse the spamming of stealth, but honestly, those are really easy to kill because they’re just so predictable, or in most cases, they just run away after you hit them once or twice.

This change is basically like making mesmer clones easily distinguishable from the actual mesmer, but gives the mesmer tons of boons whenever they cast a clone.

Faeyd.5094:

@OP do you genuinely NOT like fighting good thieves? seriously? No matter what I play, the most fun is vs stealth heavy thieves. All other fights are usually formulaic and end before they start based on spec.

correct.

Kyrion.2749:

LF4M thiefs Fractal 5000+. No noobs. NO WARRIORS!!! NO GAURDIANS!!!

D/D THIEF ONLY! Btw op, that suggestion is hilarious. I would LOVE to use it for a day only to make every zerg ever cry tears for this rediculous buff. They would have no one but themselves to blame due to all their stealth qq :P I wouldn’t have to use my brain at all. Just cnd spam all day ftw!

Never gonna happen although it is a very ‘entertaining’ idea. Would have to rework most if not all traits to start and you think thieves get hate now? QQstealth mantra would pale in comparison if this happened. There would be such an uproar- until they replaced dagger and sword with harp. Then I could see this happening.

Acaelus.2138:

Never gonna happen although it is a very ‘entertaining’ idea. Would have to rework most if not all traits to start and you think thieves get hate now? QQstealth mantra would pale in comparison if this happened. There would be such an uproar- until they replaced dagger and sword with harp. Then I could see this happening.

I’d like to see a few more non thieves chip in to ask them how they would react this vis a vis stealth. So far, they’ve said they would prefer it.

C&D chain godmode, also you are invulnerable to be moved out of your SR

dreadlocked.3794:

C&D chain godmode, also you are invulnerable to be moved out of your SR

Same rules would apply as to stealth – you can’t get invuln for upto 4 seconds after you deal damage.

Till then you’re mine

C+D chain = no revealed anyway so… yeah.

It would be ridiculously overpowered, so much more powerful than stealth, after a while it would become boring but it would still be far mor powerful

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

C&D chain godmode, also you are invulnerable to be moved out of your SR

Same rules would apply as to stealth – you can’t get invuln for upto 4 seconds after you deal damage.

Till then you’re mine

Well I can wait 3 seconds in invulnerability and then C&D to deal a little damage and continue being invulnerable, if you dodge that doesnt matter i’ll just heal or use a utility to be invulnerable again, and continue dealing 1’5-4k damage every 3 seconds

dreadlocked.3794:

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

C&D chain godmode, also you are invulnerable to be moved out of your SR

Same rules would apply as to stealth – you can’t get invuln for upto 4 seconds after you deal damage.

Till then you’re mine

Well I can wait 3 seconds in invulnerability and then C&D to deal a little damage and continue being invulnerable, if you dodge that doesnt matter i’ll just heal or use a utility to be invulnerable again, and continue dealing 1’5-4k damage every 3 seconds

Since you’re visible I’ll know when to dodge and where you’re going to be. C&D’ing me won’t be that easy. You obviously can’t spam heals because of CD’s. I’ll like to try this and see what happens.

In any case, still waiting for more non thief input.

bhagwad.4281:

Acaelus.2138:

Never gonna happen although it is a very ‘entertaining’ idea. Would have to rework most if not all traits to start and you think thieves get hate now? QQstealth mantra would pale in comparison if this happened. There would be such an uproar- until they replaced dagger and sword with harp. Then I could see this happening.

I’d like to see a few more non thieves chip in to ask them how they would react this vis a vis stealth. So far, they’ve said they would prefer it.

True but when QQheartseeker damage or even QQpistol whip was the fad a lot of the non thieves were good with added stealth duration as compensation and take the d/p hate now. So I tend to take that with a grain of salt.

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

C&D chain godmode, also you are invulnerable to be moved out of your SR

Same rules would apply as to stealth – you can’t get invuln for upto 4 seconds after you deal damage.

Till then you’re mine

Well I can wait 3 seconds in invulnerability and then C&D to deal a little damage and continue being invulnerable, if you dodge that doesnt matter i’ll just heal or use a utility to be invulnerable again, and continue dealing 1’5-4k damage every 3 seconds

Since you’re visible I’ll know when to dodge and where you’re going to be. C&D’ing me won’t be that easy. You obviously can’t spam heals because of CD’s. I’ll like to try this and see what happens.

In any case, still waiting for more non thief input.

15 characters yaaaaay

This would be horribly OP when you consider that stealth does not break channeled moves or prevent aoes or mitigate any well placed moves at all.

This would negate any channelled move, allow a thief that is out of dodges to avoid any attack headed their way, and shadow refuge would get them to full health no matter what. No more ‘trying’ to hit them in or knock them out of refuge – don’t bother. Just run away and let them have their 100% guaranteed fight reset.

Kajiri.8215:

This would be horribly OP when you consider that stealth does not break channeled moves or prevent aoes or mitigate any well placed moves at all.

This would negate any channelled move, allow a thief that is out of dodges to avoid any attack headed their way, and shadow refuge would get them to full health no matter what. No more ‘trying’ to hit them in or knock them out of refuge – don’t bother. Just run away and let them have their 100% guaranteed fight reset.

Out of all the skills I admit that shadow refuge is the only one that will need to be reworked. Otherwise as a non thief I’m willing to give up the chancy damage for the 100% knowledge of exactly where the thief is.

Lol, changing all the skills and traits that we have which currently relate to stealth to be about invulnerability would be hilarious:

• Hide in Shadows: Gain Invulnerable, Regeneration (4s) and cure Bleed, Poison and Burn
• Shadow Refuge: Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and makes them invulnerable
• Hidden Killer:100% critical hit chance while invulnerable
• Meld with Shadows: Invulnerable skills last 1 second longer
• Hidden Assassin: Gain might for 15 seconds when you go into invulnerable
• Shadow Protector: When you make an ally invulnerable, they gain regeneration for 5 seconds
• Shadow’s Embrace: Remove one condition every 3 seconds while invulnerable
• Hidden Thief: Stealing grants you 2 seconds of invulnerable
• Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Regenerate health while invulnerable
• Fleet Shadow: Move 50% faster while invulnerable

Please tell me this is a big troll thread.

Well, I’ll never have the problem of being downed in my shadow refuge again. That’s for sure.

Olba.5376:

Lol, changing all the skills and traits that we have which currently relate to stealth to be about invulnerability would be hilarious:

• Hide in Shadows: Gain Invulnerable, Regeneration (4s) and cure Bleed, Poison and Burn
• Shadow Refuge: Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and makes them invulnerable
• Hidden Killer:100% critical hit chance while invulnerable
• Meld with Shadows: Invulnerable skills last 1 second longer
• Hidden Assassin: Gain might for 15 seconds when you go into invulnerable
• Shadow Protector: When you make an ally invulnerable, they gain regeneration for 5 seconds
• Shadow’s Embrace: Remove one condition every 3 seconds while invulnerable
• Hidden Thief: Stealing grants you 2 seconds of invulnerable
• Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Regenerate health while invulnerable
• Fleet Shadow: Move 50% faster while invulnerable

Please tell me this is a big troll thread.

I’m actually dead serious. I would prefer to fight against an invulnerable thief as opposed to a stealthed one.

Based on non thief feedback this seems to be the case for almost everyone too.

So if that’s the case would smoke fields and blast finishers equal Invulnerability instead of stealth?

EDIT: If so this would mean any group fight would come down to which teams thieves can keep it up better. Lets do this, I’m in! Perma stealth? pfft Invincible army’s.

This is a great example of the psychology behind stealth. And yes, you are right, if stealth was traded for invulnerability, there would be a lot less complains. At least until people realized how many ways/times the Thief can go into stealth, which is the real problem.

Zikory.6871:

So if that’s the case would smoke fields and blast finishers equal Invulnerability instead of stealth?

EDIT: If so this would mean any group fight would come down to which teams thieves can keep it up better. Lets do this, I’m in! Perma stealth? pfft Invincible army’s.

hell yeah! with 15 characters of course

Zikory.6871:

So if that’s the case would smoke fields and blast finishers equal Invulnerability instead of stealth?

EDIT: If so this would mean any group fight would come down to which teams thieves can keep it up better. Lets do this, I’m in! Perma stealth? pfft Invincible army’s.

An invincible army that can’t do damage and can’t cap. Bring it on and watch as your teammates curse you for losing the cap.

I like how he wants opinions from non thieves in the thief forum. Any regular person that doesn’t come cry on the threads about stealth, most of the players, would probably laugh at this idea.

Maybe our shadowsteps should stop teleporting as well and just make us immune to all damage and they can see u s walk to where we want to go.

They could always just give us our 75% block chance skills back from GW1. :P

bhagwad.4281:

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

On demand invulnerability for 3s sounds good to me but you’ll need to make some buffs in exchange for some of the other advantages that stealth gives us.

For example, you’ll need to buff backstab – because people will never let you backstab if they know where you are. Executing that skill relies entirely on my opponent not knowing my location. It will have to be reworked so frontstab gave as much damage as backstab. Fair exchange perhaps still disadvantaging the thief.

There must also be no visual or boon indicators that I am invulnerable. Enemy players only find out I am invulnerable when they “Invulnerable” appearing on their screen. That way players can’t save their dodges for when we are invulnerable and they can’t save their burst damage for the second our invulnerability turns off. They’ll just have to guess when it is gone.

I am assuming this swap from stealth to invulnerability would include buffs to heavy armour (like a guardian) and/or higher base vitality (like a ranger). Given we are primarily a very squishy melee class that avoids all damage via heavy use of stealth – it only seems fair that our lack of stealth is compensated for with increased survivability (how does heavy armour and 13k hp sound?).

I also assume Invulnerable buff would de-target us like Stealth so that the player has to re-target when Invulnerable finishes. i.e., ranger can’t just select us and pew-pew auto attack.. they have to re-target and then trigger the pew pew. Costing them time to reaquire us as a target.

Heartseeker out of black powder will have to make me invulnerable (otherwise you destroy the entire Dagger/Pistol meta). So I assume the Invulnerable can chain like I can with stealth also. So I can be perma invulnerable except for the 3 second ‘Revealed’ debuff following my front/backstab attack on someone.

If you’re happy to give us those extra things then I’ll give it a go.

I am betting my guildies would love 10 seconds of being invulnerable after leaving my refuge to initiate a fight.

bhagwad.4281:

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You’d probably die even easier given most times you go to hit a thief it’ll say “Invulnerable” but at least you can see them killing you.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

bhagwad.4281:

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

On demand invulnerability for 3s sounds good to me but you’ll need to make some buffs in exchange for some of the other advantages that stealth gives us.

For example, you’ll need to buff backstab – because people will never let you backstab if they know where you are. Executing that skill relies entirely on my opponent not knowing my location. It will have to be reworked so frontstab gave as much damage as backstab. Fair exchange perhaps still disadvantaging the thief.

There must also be no visual or boon indicators that I am invulnerable. Enemy players only find out I am invulnerable when they “Invulnerable” appearing on their screen. That way players can’t save their dodges for when we are invulnerable and they can’t save their burst damage for the second our invulnerability turns off. They’ll just have to guess when it is gone.

I am assuming this swap from stealth to invulnerability would include buffs to heavy armour (like a guardian) and/or higher base vitality (like a ranger). Given we are primarily a very squishy melee class that avoids all damage via heavy use of stealth – it only seems fair that our lack of stealth is compensated for with increased survivability (how does heavy armour and 13k hp sound?).

I also assume Invulnerable buff would de-target us like Stealth so that the player has to re-target when Invulnerable finishes. i.e., ranger can’t just select us and pew-pew auto attack.. they have to re-target and then trigger the pew pew. Costing them time to reaquire us as a target.

Heartseeker out of black powder will have to make me invulnerable (otherwise you destroy the entire Dagger/Pistol meta). So I assume the Invulnerable can chain like I can with stealth also. So I can be perma invulnerable except for the 3 second ‘Revealed’ debuff following my front/backstab attack on someone.

If you’re happy to give us those extra things then I’ll give it a go.

I am betting my guildies would love 10 seconds of being invulnerable after leaving my refuge to initiate a fight.

bhagwad.4281:

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You’d probably die even easier given most times you go to hit a thief it’ll say “Invulnerable” but at least you can see them killing you.

Umm…no. The fact that you require all of these changes in addition to being invulnerable is precisely my point.

Currently many thieves prefer stealthing to invulnerability. And that to me illustrates the heart of the problem.

the thieves that prefer stealthing over invulnerability are those that don’t want the class dumbed down and made ridiculously OP, those that are going with the invuln suggestion are mostly just trolling the troll thread.

The fact that you think being able to see them will make a blind bit of difference while they are invulnerable is just funny, sure you can dodge an attack slightly better (even tho some people already can dodge those attacks) doesn’t change the fact that you can’t do anything to them if they don’t want to, unlike now where if you actually put a modicum of thought into it instead of complaining about being ganked by people sitting around an empty path for the entire match or people that came around a corner while you where looking you’d know that you’d be able to shut down a large portion of the low tier thief population… but hey ho

If you want thieves to be actually overpowered and then complain even more when you realize that you still can’t stop em then go ahead keep making posts like this where the only non thieves that will really respond are only here to complain as well.

Dasorine.1964:

the thieves that prefer stealthing over invulnerability are those that don’t want the class dumbed down and made ridiculously OP, those that are going with the invuln suggestion are mostly just trolling the troll thread.

The fact that you think being able to see them will make a blind bit of difference while they are invulnerable is just funny, sure you can dodge an attack slightly better (even tho some people already can dodge those attacks) doesn’t change the fact that you can’t do anything to them if they don’t want to, unlike now where if you actually put a modicum of thought into it instead of complaining about being ganked by people sitting around an empty path for the entire match or people that came around a corner while you where looking you’d know that you’d be able to shut down a large portion of the low tier thief population… but hey ho

If you want thieves to be actually overpowered and then complain even more when you realize that you still can’t stop em then go ahead keep making posts like this where the only non thieves that will really respond are only here to complain as well.

Information is power. Giving up the ability to damage in exchange for knowledge of whereabouts is a fair trade. Actually it’s more than fair. If you ask for stuff in addition to being undamageable…well then I don’t know what more to say.

tbh if everything worked exactly as it does now but instead of going invisible you just become invulnerable in an unremovable way thieves would be unstoppable, no matter how much “knowing where they are” would stop that, compared to now where players can actually counter (unless they aren’t paying attention and such)

Kyrion.2749:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You are estimating your chances under the erroneous assumption that invulnerable thieves would play/fight like stealthed ones.

Yeah, Blinding Powder = cancel-able Mist Form on half the cooldown. Or pop “stealth” anytime on low health and walk around rezzing allies/stomping enemies until your heal is back up. Sounds balanced, right?

bhagwad.4281:

So far though, two responses from non thieves. And both would prefer fighting invuln opponents over stealth. Not counting myself of course.

Any other non thieves would like to weigh in?

Thing is, add “non thieves, who know thieves” to that part. People who don’t know them and their playstyles don’t really have the knowledge to suggest changes.

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

Yeah, pop SR on 3 downed allies, rez all of them safely while all of you are invulnerable for the desired duration. Shadow Refuge would totally be balanced too, right?