Guild Wars 2

Why does Staff have a fantastic gap closer, amazing damage, and really good survivability yet Sword/Dagger is literally just a worse version of it?

It absolutely perplexes me that Sword/Dagger still only rips 1 boon, Cloak and dagger still has no blind on hit in this AOE heavy game where 90% of enemy players will hit you unintentionally with an attack that wasnt even intended for you, and Infiltrators return still has cast time.

With things like Dragonhunters and their instant win traps on Thieves, Scrappers with their multiple reveals, cc’s, aoes, and invulns that can easily outsustain and outdamage thieves, and Revenants that can 2 shot a thief with Precision Strike and Unrelenting Assault, I just don’t understand why a subpar set like Sword/Dagger hasn’t been worked on well enough. Hell, even just blind on cloak and dagger would help a LOT. As for Infiltrator’s Return, I’m not saying it become instant cast while you’re cc’d. I think it’s fine that it doesn’t act as a stunbreak but there’s little reason to use it when you have a condition because by the time you finish casting it while hoping you’re not cc’d, those conditions already melted half your face off.

Anyway, just posting this to hopefully get more attention put on improving S/D because while it is usable, it get’s hard countered so easily by half of the classes out there.

You have to be VERY careful in buffing SD. At one point in time it was entirely TOO strong. In fact SD can easily become too strong today if you buff it a shade too much.

I can understand why anet would be cautious with it and I understand you’re frustration. Just please for overall game health understand why baby steps are needed.

Though flanking/LS needs to rip 2 boons again with proper boon prioritization in place.

and what would be the boon prioritize? same as steal?

Fat Disgrace.4275:

and what would be the boon prioritize? same as steal?

I would say might protection

As a S/D WvW Roamer main, I disagree. This is, of course, my own opinion but I personally think S/D is better than Staff in most ways except damage. But still with my S/D I’m pumping out 4-6k crits with 1-chain swings.

S/D with the right build for it can out perform Staff in many ways. Staff excels in AOE damage and instant burst damage (Weakening Charge + Steal Bug)

I’ve never once died and though: “Man, if only I was using a staff – I could’ve won that fight”.

DH and Scrappers are the same for 90% of Thief builds. They’re simply just our hard counters.

Revenants… Mhmm, nah. I’ve never had any issues with Revs, minus one really good one.

meepeY.2867:

As a S/D WvW Roamer main, I disagree. This is, of course, my own opinion but I personally think S/D is better than Staff in most ways except damage. But still with my S/D I’m pumping out 4-6k crits with 1-chain swings.

S/D with the right build for it can out perform Staff in many ways. Staff excels in AOE damage and instant burst damage (Weakening Charge + Steal Bug)

I’ve never once died and though: “Man, if only I was using a staff – I could’ve won that fight”.

DH and Scrappers are the same for 90% of Thief builds. They’re simply just our hard counters.

Revenants… Mhmm, nah. I’ve never had any issues with Revs, minus one really good one.

1. scenario: ’guess you are a god then!
2. scenario: you fight a bunch of kittens or noobs in wvw and you base your openion on that.

if you ask me, op is right. I have tested every s/d build posible with every posible rune and amulet. Conclusion on the tests was: building for defense is useless, building on damage is not enough.
Atm s/d is underpreforming compared to any other power based meta-ish profession, not to mention it’s in mechanical disadvantage against the rest of the thief builds(if we dont count shlt like p/p and such…).
The thing s/d needs at this moment is some more pressure. this could be brought back with reinplementing some kind of might stacking or buffing key abilitys like c&d or LS or Stealth attack. (i would start with the Stealth attack buff ~200%dmg and finding a way for might stacks.)

While i love S/D it is still underperforming at the moment. My buffs for it would be (can pick more if 1 isnt enough):

- Flanking Strike has 260 range instead of 130
- enable Larcenous Strike when Flanking Strike gets blocked
- Larcenous Strike steals 2 boons or steals 1 boon still but hits max. 3 targets (max. 3 boons stolen – 1 from each target) and prioritize might and protection
- CnD AoE blinds on hit (trivial)
- reduce Infiltrator’s Return’s aftercast
- increase Dancing Dagger’s projectile speed and/or cripple duration (to 5s)
- increase Tactical Strike’s damage to hit as much as Crippling Strike and/or (if CnD gets AoE blind) change the front hit to 1s daze and hitting from behind to 1-2s stun

Rain.9213:

Why does Staff have a fantastic gap closer, amazing damage, and really good survivability yet Sword/Dagger is literally just a worse version of it?

It absolutely perplexes me that Sword/Dagger still only rips 1 boon, Cloak and dagger still has no blind on hit in this AOE heavy game where 90% of enemy players will hit you unintentionally with an attack that wasnt even intended for you, and Infiltrators return still has cast time.

With things like Dragonhunters and their instant win traps on Thieves, Scrappers with their multiple reveals, cc’s, aoes, and invulns that can easily outsustain and outdamage thieves, and Revenants that can 2 shot a thief with Precision Strike and Unrelenting Assault, I just don’t understand why a subpar set like Sword/Dagger hasn’t been worked on well enough. Hell, even just blind on cloak and dagger would help a LOT. As for Infiltrator’s Return, I’m not saying it become instant cast while you’re cc’d. I think it’s fine that it doesn’t act as a stunbreak but there’s little reason to use it when you have a condition because by the time you finish casting it while hoping you’re not cc’d, those conditions already melted half your face off.

Anyway, just posting this to hopefully get more attention put on improving S/D because while it is usable, it get’s hard countered so easily by half of the classes out there.

Agreed. S/D no longer has a true play style or role in PvP, and needs a real buff. Even the recent improvements to sword auto-attack were basically bug fixes. Dagger auto got the real buff.

If you want to know the true state of S/D, just look around and ask yourself how many other S/D thieves you see, in ANY game mode. In the last 300+ PvP matches I’ve seen two. And only in those two matches.

Rain.9213:

Why does Staff have a fantastic gap closer, amazing damage, and really good survivability yet Sword/Dagger is literally just a worse version of it?

It absolutely perplexes me that Sword/Dagger still only rips 1 boon, Cloak and dagger still has no blind on hit in this AOE heavy game where 90% of enemy players will hit you unintentionally with an attack that wasnt even intended for you, and Infiltrators return still has cast time.

With things like Dragonhunters and their instant win traps on Thieves, Scrappers with their multiple reveals, cc’s, aoes, and invulns that can easily outsustain and outdamage thieves, and Revenants that can 2 shot a thief with Precision Strike and Unrelenting Assault, I just don’t understand why a subpar set like Sword/Dagger hasn’t been worked on well enough. Hell, even just blind on cloak and dagger would help a LOT. As for Infiltrator’s Return, I’m not saying it become instant cast while you’re cc’d. I think it’s fine that it doesn’t act as a stunbreak but there’s little reason to use it when you have a condition because by the time you finish casting it while hoping you’re not cc’d, those conditions already melted half your face off.

Anyway, just posting this to hopefully get more attention put on improving S/D because while it is usable, it get’s hard countered so easily by half of the classes out there.

What?

S/D has a better gap closer than Staff. Clearly you don’t know how to use S/D right.

S/D is also more mobility friendly than Staff.

S/D also has better survivability than Staff. What’re you talking about?

S/D damage output is not skillshot based like Vault is, and has access to stealth unlike Staff…so, obviously it’s slightly lacking in damage.

What do you define as lacking or viable when it comes to s/d. I am by no means in top teir, nor do I have the time to get to that stage, and tbh if I was I wouldn’t play a thief if it meant winning at any cost.

S/d is still decent in my eyes, it’s great for wvw roaming and dueling people in eb fight clubs, it is probably better them d/p too to gank low health people in enemy zerg with the easy 2K + port and return wich dp can’t.

I guess s/d is lacking for high end teir/turnament play wich I have read even d/p is. But it’s far more exciting and fun to play as a casual pvper/fight play prefreane.

I’m talking specifically about S/D in pvp terms. S/D in WvW is fine for dueling and 1v1 ganking. What I’m saying for pvp though is that it offers nothing better than what Staff does. Aside from ripping 1 boon at a time which barely does anything or giving you an Immob which also doesn’t do much because S/D lacks damage pressure and you will likely take more damage after Infiltrators Strike than giving.

Also, Silverbolt, I’ve been maining S/D Thief since 3 months after launch of GW2. One gap closer that requires a target isn’t better mobility than a spammable leap that deals high damage and is also an evade and Flanking Strike is not as nearly as reliable as Staff 3 which removes Immob and acts just like a regular dodge. Lastly, Stealth is practically useless in the current meta on an S/D Thief as all it does is offer you a daze/blind that while is okay requires you to land a cloak and dagger which does nothing aside from make you invisible while you’re dying to enemy cleave.

Rain.9213:

I’m talking specifically about S/D in pvp terms. S/D in WvW is fine for dueling and 1v1 ganking. What I’m saying for pvp though is that it offers nothing better than what Staff does. Aside from ripping 1 boon at a time which barely does anything or giving you an Immob which also doesn’t do much because S/D lacks damage pressure and you will likely take more damage after Infiltrators Strike than giving.

Also, Silverbolt, I’ve been maining S/D Thief since 3 months after launch of GW2. One gap closer that requires a target isn’t better mobility than a spammable leap that deals high damage and is also an evade and Flanking Strike is not as nearly as reliable as Staff 3 which removes Immob and acts just like a regular dodge. Lastly, Stealth is practically useless in the current meta on an S/D Thief as all it does is offer you a daze/blind that while is okay requires you to land a cloak and dagger which does nothing aside from make you invisible while you’re dying to enemy cleave.

I’m not gonna lie, this made me giggle quite a lot.

What are you closing gap on? Air? No? A target? Yes? Then you have a target to close gap on.

You obviously missed the point my response was making, considering you’re talking about Vault.

It also makes me uncomfortable to think that someone could be playing S/D since 3 months into the game, and still be unable to use the set properly in 2016.

S/D has other problems, but the ones you’re trying to argue for are not them.

Silverbolt.2301:

Rain.9213:

I’m talking specifically about S/D in pvp terms. S/D in WvW is fine for dueling and 1v1 ganking. What I’m saying for pvp though is that it offers nothing better than what Staff does. Aside from ripping 1 boon at a time which barely does anything or giving you an Immob which also doesn’t do much because S/D lacks damage pressure and you will likely take more damage after Infiltrators Strike than giving.

Also, Silverbolt, I’ve been maining S/D Thief since 3 months after launch of GW2. One gap closer that requires a target isn’t better mobility than a spammable leap that deals high damage and is also an evade and Flanking Strike is not as nearly as reliable as Staff 3 which removes Immob and acts just like a regular dodge. Lastly, Stealth is practically useless in the current meta on an S/D Thief as all it does is offer you a daze/blind that while is okay requires you to land a cloak and dagger which does nothing aside from make you invisible while you’re dying to enemy cleave.

I’m not gonna lie, this made me giggle quite a lot.

What are you closing gap on? Air? No? A target? Yes? Then you have a target to close gap on.

You obviously missed the point my response was making, considering you’re talking about Vault.

It also makes me uncomfortable to think that someone could be playing S/D since 3 months into the game, and still be unable to use the set properly in 2016.

S/D has other problems, but the ones you’re trying to argue for are not them.

I said one gap closer that requires a target isn’t better mobility than a spammable leap. I think you missed my point.

I can use the set just fine in 1v1’s and WvW Roaming. I never said it was unusable. What I’m saying is that it is not viable in pvp when staff is basically the same concept but much better. What I’m saying is that S/D offers nothing better or different than what Staff does aside from a weak boon rip, a near useless stealth, and an Immob.

Sure you can argue it has more survivability because it lets you run away in conquest easier by porting back and getting distance but congrats, you are now contributing nothing to your team while the enemy caps a point or wrecks your team.

Given the stealth harder to accomplish on s/d via CND than it is with d/p that stealth attack needs a bit more oomph. it need not be more outright damage but perhaps something like combining the blind and daze on hit rather than the two separate effects , this hit not needing to be from behind.

With the number three return to two boon rips. There way more boons in game and necro recently got yet more boon corruption. I see no reason 2 boon rips would be OP.

the dancing dagger/Cnd stuff already spoken to with all of the x/d threads but if this ever did happen it might push s/d up too high> I do not think s/d hopelessly broken. I think it needs nudges in the right direction.

babazhook.6805:

Given the stealth harder to accomplish on s/d via CND than it is with d/p that stealth attack needs a bit more oomph. it need not be more outright damage but perhaps something like combining the blind and daze on hit rather than the two separate effects , this hit not needing to be from behind.

With the number three return to two boon rips. There way more boons in game and necro recently got yet more boon corruption. I see no reason 2 boon rips would be OP.

the dancing dagger/Cnd stuff already spoken to with all of the x/d threads but if this ever did happen it might push s/d up too high> I do not think s/d hopelessly broken. I think it needs nudges in the right direction.

Exactly what I’m saying. S/D doesn’t have to become top meta with top damage but as long as we can stay in the fight better and punish the enemy more for fighting us in some way, this case stealing their might/stability/protection more reliably while also punishing enemies for letting us land CnD on them in some way besides a weak stealth attack and some vulnerability, I think S/D will become much better. But right now, it’s just underperforming in comparison to Staff or D/P.

As a thief main the game is more fun and in a better spot when s/d isn’t viable. Sorry to say that, but it’s true. That spec just isn’t fun to deal with at all.