Guild Wars 2

Vanthian.9267:

Doomdesire.9365:

So this is not a thread about the “cheapness” of stealth? Are you sure about that? Because it sure seems like one to me

Also

Definition of argument = “An exchange of diverging or opposite views”

Learn what an argument is before you comment about it.

I am glad you can use google. Now if you could fine the opposite view that actually stands a counter point then I would be happy to converse.

Now I’m completely dumbfounded. I listed the definition and you still deny anything that presents a counter point.

Even the annoying “l2p” comments are counterpoints. Stealth is cheap? “No it’s not, you just need to l2p” That’s a counter point.

Either you are a downright troll, in which case, 10/10 or you are completely ignorant and dismiss arguments that have been presented right in front of your eyes.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

He just explained to you…that, and how? I don’t understand, its right there in front of you. Seriously, I think this ONE guys takes up about 70% of the ignorance on the internet.

I am glad you feel you in compress that much of the internet (70% is quite a bit) but I don’t honestly believe you are that ignorant.

If you read what he wrote, none of those suggestions are counter to the actual being in stealth. They are counters for a Thief trying to go in stealth (sort of). There are no counters for Thieves in stealth. Point stands.

Engineer Grenades are just cheap. 1500 range with massive aoe damage just doesn’t provide any counter play. How can a skinny little girl throw 3 grenades on a point at farther range than I can shoot my firearm or shoot an arrow?

The point of the post is not calling the profession “OP” or amazing in anyway. I am clearly calling out the developers choice on adding a very cheap grenade design to the class. It does nothing but lower the profession to a level of unskilled play that revolves around abusing this ability (which has no true counter in this game from another profession).

OR

Mesmer phantasms and illusions are just cheap. Being able to throw them out constantly with no way to stop the mesmer from making more is unfair.

Vanthian.9267:

The point of the post is not calling the profession “OP” or amazing in anyway. I am clearly calling out the developers choice on adding a very cheap clone design to the class. It does nothing but lower the profession to a level of unskilled play that revolves around abusing this ability (which has no true counter in this game from another profession).

What class do you play? I can do this with any class and make it sound just as dumb as what you’re doing now.

Vanthian, why instead of rejecting those duels because you “know” you will scape from them you go and duel them? Because I can tell you that they’re trying to duel you to show that you won’t be able to escape even if you think you can (they know more about Thief than you do, which means they know what to do agains any Thief trick you throw at them). Duel them instead of asuming they won’t be able to kill you. Rejecting all those duels makes your argument look bad as they’re offering you the chance to prove your point in game against them and you don’t want, that sounds like knowing your point won’t prevail

Of course you will be able to escape if you don’t try to engage them at all (which means you will run even before trying to fight so there wouldn’t be a duel at all) so yeah, that way you could prove your point, but if you try to get the kill against them you will get your stealthy a** handled to you before you can try to scape (I know multiple things they will throw at you but I prefer not spoil the fun to you )

Now about the main point, I’ve said this in other thread in long posts, but I will try to make it quick:

- Thief ability to scape fights isn’t game changing at all and only serves to hurt feelings (like yours for example).

- In PvE it means nothing and in PvP it means your team will lose because you’re getting others capping points while running away.

- In most WvW content it doesn’t matter at all. The only part where it’s effective is when players try to duel each other in WvW as the Thief can scape with so much terrain. But basically that Thief trying to duel players won’t help his team much. There is a place for duels and it’s called pvp. The best use of it in WvW would be to be more effective at scouting, and that’s all. Anyone can go and kill some sentries and cows.

- If you find one of those troll thieves (because they’re not OP, they’re annoying which is different even if it looks the same because they frustrate others and hurt feelings) simply ignore him. He won’t be able to kill you if you know what you’re doing, if you don’t engage him directly blowing all your cooldowns because you want the kill, you will be able to ignore him (and WvW is about your server winning, PvP is where you test yourself against others).

- Only people that will try to kill him in a duel and end up frustrated are: a) players that still don’t know that WvW isn’t about getting more kills than anyone but about army strategy and resoures. b) players that feel the need to kill all players they see. c) players that have something to prove because they just have too much pride, so they will try and try because their pride and feelings will be hurt if he doesn’t got for him and win the fight.

Basically the Thief ability isn’t effective for anything in this game. The only use it has is hurting other prideful players feelings and that’s the reason we got so many QQ threads. Hurt feelings and pride everywhere.

Now if you think about it, in PvP you can perfectly fight a Thief, and in WvW if he’s a troll Thief there is no reason at all to engage him. Ignore him and go for something more rewarding than losing your time against a troll, you will feel better at the end

So yeah, that escaping skill at the end is for nothing. I don’t spend time roaming/trolling in WvW because I find it boring, but I’m sure those still doing it thank the six gods of Tyria everyday for feeding them with prideful players running to their blades

PS: Thieves are not the only ones with amazing scaping skills. I’ve met some others reaaaaaally good at that. But at the end all are the same: ignore them instead of losing a day trying to chase them.

Vanthian.9267:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

He just explained to you…that, and how? I don’t understand, its right there in front of you. Seriously, I think this ONE guys takes up about 70% of the ignorance on the internet.

I am glad you feel you in compress that much of the internet (70% is quite a bit) but I don’t honestly believe you are that ignorant.

If you read what he wrote, none of those suggestions are counter to the actual being in stealth. They are counters for a Thief trying to go in stealth (sort of). There are no counters for Thieves in stealth. Point stands.

How many times are you going to answer you own question in this thread?

Don’t let it happen.

Doomdesire.9365:

Now I’m completely dumbfounded. I listed the definition and you still deny anything that presents a counter point.

Even the annoying “l2p” comments are counterpoints. Stealth is cheap? “No it’s not, you just need to l2p” That’s a counter point.

Either you are a downright troll, in which case, 10/10 or you are completely ignorant and dismiss arguments that have been presented right in front of your eyes.

I know you are dumbfounded and that is okay. Your counter points you are bringing are not against stealth, they are against people going into stealth (sort of). I am asking for at least counter to the design of stealth in this game itself.

And no, the “l2p” comments are not counter arguements. There is no skill in this game that a profession has that will counter the deign of stealth in this game. There is nothing skill wise in this game a profession (by itself without the aid of a crappy in game item you have to pay for) can use to unveil a sheathed thief.

Again, there are no decent counter arguments posted at this time. I will not pat people on the back for giving posts that missed the point.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

How many times are you going to answer you own question in this thread?

Don’t let it happen.

I will apparently have to answer it as many times as it takes till the other people understand the point.

Not letting it happen is only possible on certain stealth skills. Most notably the CnD skill or dagger 5. Tell me how do you counter someone trying to use blinding powder from a distance? Right, there is none. What about Blackpowder+heartseeker? right there is none.

Stealth is cheap and a easy to use ability. This is why I moved on from the Thief class because it requires no skill to use or play.

Vanthian.9267:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

How many times are you going to answer you own question in this thread?

Don’t let it happen.

I will apparently have to answer it as many times as it takes till the other people understand the point.

Not letting it happen is only possible on certain stealth skills. Most notably the CnD skill or dagger 5. Tell me how do you counter someone trying to use blinding powder from a distance? Right, there is none. What about Blackpowder+heartseeker? right there is none.

Stealth is cheap and a easy to use ability. This is why I moved on from the Thief class because it requires no skill to use or play.

Interrupt the heartseeker. A thief peeling from a team fight (spvp) is naturally going to spike you from far away. But it can only be 900 range with out infiltrators’. Most interrupts or blinds have 900 range.

Good awareness goes a long way.

Blinding Powder only puts a thief in stealth for 3s, if they use it far away that’s useless and would be taken out of it by the time the reach a fight.

why are you letting this guy troll you.

/salute Vanthian

Excellent trolling.

Lokheit.7943:

Vanthian, why instead of rejecting those duels because you “know” you will scape from them you go and duel them? Because I can tell you that they’re trying to duel you to show that you won’t be able to escape even if you think you can (they know more about Thief than you do, which means they know what to do agains any Thief trick you throw at them). Duel them instead of asuming they won’t be able to kill you. Rejecting all those duels makes your argument look bad

Of course you will be able to escape if you don’t try to engage them at all (which means you will run even before trying to fight) so yeah, that way you could prove your point, but if you try to get the kill against them you will get your stealthy a** handled to you before you can try to scape (I know multiple things they will throw at you but I prefer not spoil the fun to you )

Now about the main point, I’ve said this in other thread in long posts, but I will try to make it quick:

- Thief ability to scape fights isn’t game changing at all and only serves to hurt feelings (like yours for example).

- In PvE it means nothing and in PvP it means your team will lose because you’re getting others capping points while running away.

- In most WvW content it doesn’t matter at all. The only part where it’s effective is when players try to duel each other in WvW as the Thief can scape with so much terrain. But basically that Thief trying to duel players won’t help his team much. There is a place for duels and it’s called pvp. The best use of it in WvW would be to be more effective at scouting, and that’s all. Anyone can go and kill some sentries and cows.

- If you find one of those troll thieves (because they’re not OP, they’re annoying which is different even if it looks the same because they frustrate others and hurt feelings) simply ignore him. He won’t be able to kill you if you know what you’re doing, if you don’t engage him directly blowing all your cooldowns because you want the kill, you will be able to ignore him (and WvW is about your server winning, PvP is where you test yourself against others).

- Only people that will try to kill him in a duel and end up frustrated are: a) players that still don’t know that WvW isn’t about getting more kills than anyone but about army strategy and resoures. b) players that feel the need to kill all players they see. c) players that have something to prove because they just have too much pride, so they will try and try because their pride and feelings will be hurt if he doesn’t got for him and win the fight.

Basically the Thief ability isn’t effective for anything in this game. The only use it has is hurting other prideful players feelings and that’s the reason we got so many QQ threads. Hurt feelings and pride everywhere.

Now if you think about it, in PvP you can perfectly fight a Thief, and in WvW if he’s a troll Thief there is no reason at all to engage him. Ignore him and go for something more rewarding than losing your time against a troll, you will feel better at the end

So yeah, that escaping skill at the end is for nothing. I don’t spend time roaming/trolling in WvW because I find it bring, but I’m sure those still doing it thank the six gods of Tyria everyday for feeding them with prideful players running to their blades

PS: Thieves are not the only ones with amazing scaping skills. I’ve met some others reaaaaaally good at that. But at the end all are the same: ignore them instead of losing a day trying to chase them.

1) I don’t take them up because more than likely I will engage them and it will be a decent fight, but I will escape. I hardly ever die as a Thief due to the extreme ease of running away as one.

2) Some of them might understand the class on a deeper level (notice I said some of them) but for the vast majority who are having trouble even connecting the topic of this thread I highly doubt they understand the class better.

3) If they are so useless as they stand right now as you say (and I agree to you to a extent), why not change the class and get rid of this horrible stealth ability. The Thief class could be fun and inventive if they just redo the stealth ability in this game. Would you not prefer a Thief class that actually takes skill over a cheesy “Stealth” Thief?

Vanthian.9267:

Doomdesire.9365:

Now I’m completely dumbfounded. I listed the definition and you still deny anything that presents a counter point.

Even the annoying “l2p” comments are counterpoints. Stealth is cheap? “No it’s not, you just need to l2p” That’s a counter point.

Either you are a downright troll, in which case, 10/10 or you are completely ignorant and dismiss arguments that have been presented right in front of your eyes.

I know you are dumbfounded and that is okay. Your counter points you are bringing are not against stealth, they are against people going into stealth (sort of). I am asking for at least counter to the design of stealth in this game itself.

And no, the “l2p” comments are not counter arguements. There is no skill in this game that a profession has that will counter the deign of stealth in this game. There is nothing skill wise in this game a profession (by itself without the aid of a crappy in game item you have to pay for) can use to unveil a sheathed thief.

Again, there are no decent counter arguments posted at this time. I will not pat people on the back for giving posts that missed the point.

OH you want a counter to stealth and this is a wvw thread? OKAY, Anti Stealth trap. BOOM! 30 seconds revealed. Every player of every class has access to this. If you don’t want to use one of these then quit being a troll and actually listen to one of the half-dozen posts in here that were actually trying to help you out before you showed how ignorant and unwilling to adapt you are. Darwin said it the best.

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change. In the struggle for survival, the fittest win out at the expense of their rivals because they succeed in adapting themselves best to their environment.”

This is not a l2p issue

Yes it is.

Not letting it happen is only possible on certain stealth skills. Most notably the CnD skill or dagger 5. Tell me how do you counter someone trying to use blinding powder from a distance? Right, there is none. What about Blackpowder+heartseeker? right there is none.

you COULD try, oh I don’t know, NOT letting him get that far away from you in the first place. Then you could stand beside the bp so he can’t leap back into it for added stealth. He COULD walk all the way back and get 1 more hs out of it but he’ll be out of stealth in 2s and have no where to run. Use aoe and aa to find out where he is/punish him for coming in and react accordingly. You saw which way he lept first.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Interrupt the heartseeker. A thief peeling from a team fight (spvp) is naturally going to spike you from far away. But it can only be 900 range with out infiltrators’. Most interrupts or blinds have 900 range.

Good awareness goes a long way.

Blinding Powder only puts a thief in stealth for 3s, if they use it far away that’s useless and would be taken out of it by the time the reach a fight.

Point in the later post being:

Engaged in fight, Thief swaps weapon to short bow. Shortbow 5, Shortbow 5—>Blinding Powder.

Your only hope to stop this would be to stun the thief after the weapon swap, even then you would be lucky to get him stunned in that place. There have been plenty of times I fought decent Thieves who can swap and shortbow 5 fast enough that my stun hits them while they travel and they still make it to their destination (Stun animation are slower than dirt on Warriors). Not many professions can cover 1800 range so quickly and with such ease unless they have every cool down up needed (such as Warrior Sword 2+Greatsword 5). I know that shortbow 5 takes 4 initiative to use, but again Thieves only really spam when they are securing a kill (obvious 2222222) or running away (555555).

I understand awareness is key in ever hoping to kill a thief, but a decent Thief will not be killed by one person.

Vanthian.9267:

3) If they are so useless as they stand right now as you say (and I agree to you to a extent), why not change the class and get rid of this horrible stealth ability. The Thief class could be fun and inventive if they just redo the stealth ability in this game. Would you not prefer a Thief class that actually takes skill over a cheesy “Stealth” Thief?

Because stealth serves a purposse in combat. In fact most builds revolve around the use of Stealth Attacks, I would gladly get rid of them as I knew the day during early development they announced it that most builds would end up in that direction and I prefered the Thief to be more versatile and able to do multiple things in its own way rather than “needing” stealth to optimize his builds because it’s the only way to access those special attacks. In fact in early development they said stealth was meant to be situational utility rather than being needed to access all your skill set. But as the game is right now, stealth is needed for the Thief to use his builds.

In combat it has been proven time and time again that thieves can be killed stealth or not with litle trouble. Being able to run away in WvW is a side effect of being able to stealth and having good (while not really the best) mobility. But as I said and you to some degree agree, being able to do that at the end isn’t changing the game and others can ignore you.

That part is a side effect of how the Thief works in combat. If you eliminate it just to eliminate the (mostly useless) scaping ability you destroy 90% of thief’s competitive builds and you would need a whole overhaul to the profession (I have some good ideas for that if it ever happens), but a-net has stated that they don’t like overhauls so the Thief is going to be this way.

It’s just that, a side effect of thief gameplay, that at the end of the day won’t change the game much but as players still try to get troll thieves, they get frustrated and hate on the thief and at the end of the day that’s the reason of so many hate threads around here.

randomfightfan.4091:

OH you want a counter to stealth and this is a wvw thread? OKAY, Anti Stealth trap. BOOM! 30 seconds revealed. Every player of every class has access to this. If you don’t want to use one of these then quit being a troll and actually listen to one of the half-dozen posts in here that were actually trying to help you out before you showed how ignorant and unwilling to adapt you are. Darwin said it the best.

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change. In the struggle for survival, the fittest win out at the expense of their rivals because they succeed in adapting themselves best to their environment.”

This is not a l2p issue

Yes it is.

Not letting it happen is only possible on certain stealth skills. Most notably the CnD skill or dagger 5. Tell me how do you counter someone trying to use blinding powder from a distance? Right, there is none. What about Blackpowder+heartseeker? right there is none.

you COULD try, oh I don’t know, NOT letting him get that far away from you in the first place. Then you could stand beside the bp so he can’t leap back into it for added stealth. He COULD walk all the way back and get 1 more hs out of it but he’ll be out of stealth in 2s and have no where to run. Use aoe and aa to find out where he is/punish him for coming in and react accordingly. You saw which way he lept first.

I hate to inform you but you have failed yet again…

I have already stated the trap and why it is no good. It is not a l2p issue.

A class should not rely on a in game item to help them in a duel. This shows that it is a unbalanced ability. Your post was pretty much dead before the first paragraph. Read the other posts when you get these “BOOM” moments, because more than likely they have been addressed.

Lokheit.7943:

Because stealth serves a purposse in combat. In fact most builds revolve around the use of Stealth Attacks, I would gladly get rid of them as I knew the day during early development they announced it that most builds would end up in that direction and I prefered the Thief to be more versatile and able to do multiple things in its own way rather than “needing” stealth to optimize his builds because it’s the only way to access those special attacks. In fact in early development they said stealth was meant to be situational utility rather than being needed to access all your skill set. But as the game is right now, stealth is needed for the Thief to use his builds.

In combat it has been proven time and time again that thieves can be killed stealth or not with litle trouble. Being able to run away in WvW is a side effect of being able to stealth and having good (while not really the best) mobility. But as I said and you to some degree agree, being able to do that at the end isn’t changing the game and others can ignore you.

That part is a side effect of how the Thief works in combat. If you eliminate it just to eliminate the (mostly useless) scaping ability you destroy 90% of thief’s competitive builds and you would need a whole overhaul to the profession (I have some good ideas for that if it ever happens), but a-net has stated that they don’t like overhauls so the Thief is going to be this way.

It’s just that, a side effect of thief gameplay, that at the end of the day won’t change the game much but as players still try to get troll thieves, they get frustrated and hate on the thief.

Then why not petition to change the Thieves instead of settling for this “Troll Profession” as it has been hinted at. I understand that stealth is a big part of the Thief class now, but that is the point of this thread.

You have a class that is molded and shaped by a horrible design choice for a profession ability. It is cheap and uncountable once in stealth. This gives the Thief a glaring advantage (one that when the game was in development they said wouldn’t be) in every fight. A decent Thief, in any fight, will set the pace of combat. It is neither fun nor exciting to continually play against others who have full control over a fight.

Enjoyable combat comes from flow of control. As it stands with the stealth ability in game Thieves stop this flow due to a horrible game mechanic.

It needs to be reworked to open the door for better traits and game play for the Thief class as a whole.

Edit: Before some of you completely miss understand this post.

Control of the fight is in regards to when and how it takes place. The Thief (during the course of any fight) has the option to stall, attack, or flee. The other profession does not have these choices. They are forced to go with what the Thief does. Maybe one or two professions can out run a Thief (and usually only for long distances and not for short burst).

Vanthian.9267:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Interrupt the heartseeker. A thief peeling from a team fight (spvp) is naturally going to spike you from far away. But it can only be 900 range with out infiltrators’. Most interrupts or blinds have 900 range.

Good awareness goes a long way.

Blinding Powder only puts a thief in stealth for 3s, if they use it far away that’s useless and would be taken out of it by the time the reach a fight.

Point in the later post being:

Engaged in fight, Thief swaps weapon to short bow. Shortbow 5, Shortbow 5—>Blinding Powder.

Your only hope to stop this would be to stun the thief after the weapon swap, even then you would be lucky to get him stunned in that place. There have been plenty of times I fought decent Thieves who can swap and shortbow 5 fast enough that my stun hits them while they travel and they still make it to their destination (Stun animation are slower than dirt on Warriors). Not many professions can cover 1800 range so quickly and with such ease unless they have every cool down up needed (such as Warrior Sword 2+Greatsword 5). I know that shortbow 5 takes 4 initiative to use, but again Thieves only really spam when they are securing a kill (obvious 2222222) or running away (555555).

I understand awareness is key in ever hoping to kill a thief, but a decent Thief will not be killed by one person.

Exactly how much initiative do you think a thief has? Holy hell you were just in a fight with a thief and you expect them to be able to swap out and use their entire initiative bar just to blink a maximum of 1800 range (in a real world senario, they’d get maybe 1200) over the course of at least 2 seconds. You’re a warrior. You saw him blink away, use rush and you’ve just covered the majority of the distance and still have 9 more abilities to use. Whirlwind and you’re already on top of the thief and you got there fast enough that he wouldn’t have even left combat.

By the way, get your facts straight. "

I know that shortbow 5 takes 4 initiative to use" " Thieves only really spam when they are securing a kill (obvious 2222222) or running away (555555).

" So so dumb. My head is exploding trying to comprehend the pure stupidity of this statement.

Thieves have 12 -15 initiative. Sbow 5 costs 6 initiative. Heart seeker costs 3 initiative. An average thief can get off 5-6 heart seekers IF a few ini regen traits kick in from criting and what not. How many blinks away can ANY thief get? 2. 2 slow projectile reliant blinks that will often hit the ground in front of your target or get you stuck on some uneven terrain.

I was going to compliment you on this thread as it is hilarious. Then I kept reading and your sheer stupidity on the entire thief everything gave me a headache. I remember you saying you have a thief but never play it cause it’s too easy. I guess we all now see either you don’t have a thief or you do but it’s lvl 2 and you have no idea what anything does because you never use it.

Vanthian.9267:

A class should not rely on a in game item to help them in a duel. This shows that it is a unbalanced ability. Your post was pretty much dead before the first paragraph. Read the other posts when you get these “BOOM” moments, because more than likely they have been addressed.

Addressed and ignored by you. Just because you say you don’t like a certain avenue to counter something does not make it not count as a counter. You’re right though, that wasn’t a BOOM moment. The real BOOM moment was when you refuse to use stealth counters then complain there’s no stealth counters. I also think it’s HILARIOUS that you said MY post was dead after the 1st paragraph.

And I gave you other counters to letting the thief get stealth. Way to ignore them.

For what is worth, during early development, at guildwars2guru many guys including myself raged when they announced the decission of stealth attacks (MrBig was one of them, it has been ages since the last time I saw him arounf Thief sub-forum but I know he still posts in the PvP forums).

We knew what kind of repercussion it would have, as giving useful skills (useful enough to build around them) ONLY accessible through stealth would mean that to access ALL your available skills you would need to use stealth making it obligatory for full optimization. Also as it isn’t a Thief only thing, in my personal opinion it doesn’t make sense that the Thief get extra skills with it (would be like Warriors getting new skills when they get Fury or Might).

And many posters told us that we were exagerating and that it wouldn’t change things… so here we are today with 80+ % (and before Larcenous Strike I would say more than 90%) of competitive Thief builds being focused on accessing the stealth attack, and the Thief as the most predictable profession in the whole game because of a combination of lack of weapon sets (nearly less weapon skills in total than an Elementalist with a single weapon) and most playstyles going in this direction.

Would I like a change and more focus on diversity and survivality through evades and teleports (some builds are already incredibly good at that but I would like to see it as the way to go instead of stealth) and a more support orientated use of stealth like the Mesmer has instead of having stupid stealth attacks? Yes (though to be honest, changing the stealth with more teleports and evades wouldn’t eliminate those useless scapists we’re talking about, and with the cooldown stealths still there they might get even better at that, but at the end of the day they don’t serve for anything, but as I said thief and stealth aren’t the only excellent scapists in this game anyway).

But as I said a-net doesn’t want overhauls. The thief in its current status works this way and except for useless trolling (note: with trolls I refer only to those WvW guys that aren’t helping anyone, not the whole profession as you stated) it’s balanced (in fact it even needs help in many areas) and anyone can fight a Thief and win against him in pvp. The WvW scapist is a side effect of this playstyle that really won’t affect you at all if you don’t feed them and ignore them so really it doesn’t matter. A-Net said they don’t want overhauls so it’s kinda pointless and the Thief at the end of the day is as balanced as any other.

You know if you add this you got to twice our damage and give us a lot more weapons and a lot more survablity……..

randomfightfan.4091:

Vanthian.9267:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Interrupt the heartseeker. A thief peeling from a team fight (spvp) is naturally going to spike you from far away. But it can only be 900 range with out infiltrators’. Most interrupts or blinds have 900 range.

Good awareness goes a long way.

Blinding Powder only puts a thief in stealth for 3s, if they use it far away that’s useless and would be taken out of it by the time the reach a fight.

Point in the later post being:

Engaged in fight, Thief swaps weapon to short bow. Shortbow 5, Shortbow 5—>Blinding Powder.

Your only hope to stop this would be to stun the thief after the weapon swap, even then you would be lucky to get him stunned in that place. There have been plenty of times I fought decent Thieves who can swap and shortbow 5 fast enough that my stun hits them while they travel and they still make it to their destination (Stun animation are slower than dirt on Warriors). Not many professions can cover 1800 range so quickly and with such ease unless they have every cool down up needed (such as Warrior Sword 2+Greatsword 5). I know that shortbow 5 takes 4 initiative to use, but again Thieves only really spam when they are securing a kill (obvious 2222222) or running away (555555).

I understand awareness is key in ever hoping to kill a thief, but a decent Thief will not be killed by one person.

Exactly how much initiative do you think a thief has? Holy hell you were just in a fight with a thief and you expect them to be able to swap out and use their entire initiative bar just to blink a maximum of 1800 range (in a real world senario, they’d get maybe 1200) over the course of at least 2 seconds. You’re a warrior. You saw him blink away, use rush and you’ve just covered the majority of the distance and still have 9 more abilities to use. Whirlwind and you’re already on top of the thief and you got there fast enough that he wouldn’t have even left combat.

By the way, get your facts straight. " I know that shortbow 5 takes 4 initiative to use" " Thieves only really spam when they are securing a kill (obvious 2222222) or running away (555555)." So so dumb. My head is exploding trying to comprehend the pure stupidity of this statement.

Thieves have 12 -15 initiative. Sbow 5 costs 6 initiative. Heart seeker costs 3 initiative. An average thief can get off 5-6 heart seekers IF a few ini regen traits kick in from criting and what not. How many blinks away can ANY thief get? 2. 2 slow projectile reliant blinks that will often hit the ground in front of your target or get you stuck on some uneven terrain.

I was going to compliment you on this thread as it is hilarious. Then I kept reading and your sheer stupidity on the entire thief everything gave me a headache. I remember you saying you have a thief but never play it cause it’s too easy. I guess we all now see either you don’t have a thief or you do but it’s lvl 2 and you have no idea what anything does because you never use it.

You reduce to insult because you know the thread to be true. A single mistype doesn’t make one stupid. Yes shortbow 5 takes 6, but they can easily get 2 off in a fight. Only bad thieves will start a fight with spamming abilities. A decent Thief will time them (obviously you don’t understand this from your previous post). In case you are wondering how a Thief times his abilities, I am afraid to inform you that it takes skill to accomplish this so it might not come instantly to you.

Every Thief I have ever fought that used Dagger main hand tries to end the fight on targets with less than 30% health with 2222. That is a simple statement of fact. Either you delude yourself or are what you call others.

When running the majority of Thieves will carry shortbow for skill 5. I have fought plenty of Thieves that only ever swap weapons when they start to run. Flinging direct insults for no other reason than you don’t understand at others is neither bright nor good edicate. I have only “talked back” with wit at people who try to call me “stupid”.

Yes, Thieves have 12-15 initiative. Congratulations on knowing a basic fact about the class. You are well on your way to understanding.

Don’t congratulate me on this thread as I have not done anything but take insults from players who obviously didn’t understand the topic in the first place (aside from a “few” who are intelligent enough to understand the point of the thread and actually discuss it).

Big Tower.5423:

You know if you add this you got to twice our damage and give us a lot more weapons and a lot more survablity……..

More ability to survive if stealth is nerfed? Of course. It would be active defense instead of a cheap stealth skill. Hopefully it would get rid of the over reliance on the stealth and make it more of a situation skill (one time use only that last for a short duration, and yes it would remove it from the Mesmer).

More damage if stealth is nerfed? Doubtful. Hopefully the new defenses that you would receive would be adequate to keep you up and allow your current damage to pull you through.

Lokheit.7943:

For what is worth, during early development, at guildwars2guru many guys including myself raged when they announced the decission of stealth attacks (MrBig was one of them, it has been ages since the last time I saw him arounf Thief sub-forum but I know he still posts in the PvP forums).

We knew what kind of repercussion it would have, as giving useful skills (useful enough to build around them) ONLY accessible through stealth would mean that to access ALL your available skills you would need to use stealth making it obligatory for full optimization. Also as it isn’t a Thief only thing, in my personal opinion it doesn’t make sense that the Thief get extra skills with it (would be like Warriors getting new skills when they get Fury or Might).

And many posters told us that we were exagerating and that it wouldn’t change things… so here we are today with 80+ % (and before Larcenous Strike I would say more than 90%) of competitive Thief builds being focused on accessing the stealth attack, and the Thief as the most predictable profession in the whole game because of a combination of lack of weapon sets (nearly less weapon skills in total than an Elementalist with a single weapon) and most playstyles going in this direction.

Would I like a change and more focus on diversity and survivality through evades and teleports (some builds are already incredibly good at that but I would like to see it as the way to go instead of stealth) and a more support orientated use of stealth like the Mesmer has instead of having stupid stealth attacks? Yes (though to be honest, changing the stealth with more teleports and evades wouldn’t eliminate those useless scapists we’re talking about, and with the cooldown stealths still there they might get even better at that, but at the end of the day they don’t serve for anything, but as I said thief and stealth aren’t the only excellent scapists in this game anyway).

But as I said a-net doesn’t want overhauls. The thief in its current status works this way and except for useless trolling (note: with trolls I refer only to those WvW guys that aren’t helping anyone, not the whole profession as you stated) it’s balanced (in fact it even needs help in many areas) and anyone can fight a Thief and win against him in pvp. The WvW scapist is a side effect of this playstyle that really won’t affect you at all if you don’t feed them and ignore them so really it doesn’t matter. A-Net said they don’t want overhauls so it’s kinda pointless and the Thief at the end of the day is as balanced as any other.

I agree with you on most points except for the Thief being balanced. He is under balanced, but not so much as a Warrior.

I truly wish they would scrape both and start over with them. The current versions of Warriors are …. sad to say the least, and Thieves are just cheap “trolls”. I have run across a couple of good Thieves in sPvP but nothing that blew my mind. It is either heavy stealth or the evade build.

Vanthian.9267:

Jumper.9482:

Actually, there is plenty of play/counter play to entering stealth.
There is Dagger offhand (rarely used) Cloak and Dagger which is a huge tell and dodge/interruptible with a HUGE initiative cost.
There is Thief stolen ability and Hide in Shadows(heal) which both have obvious animations and easily interruptable.
There’s the D/P Black Powder Heartseeker which is again, interruptible and extremely easy to read.
And there’s the most easy of all to counter, Shadow refuge, aka. knock him out of the circle or just kill him.

The only “uncounterable” stealth a thief has is Blinding Powder, a 40sec cd utility noone uses.

There is no counter to stealth. Once they are stealth, that is it. They will only be reveled once they hit something (choose to come out) or the stealth runs out (3 seconds/4 seconds (most thievies)/ or the annoying 16 seconds). None of these things are negative and prove there is 0 skilled play that can counter someone in stealth. The best you can do is guess which way he went and swing in the air.

So what?
The only time stealth is problematic in any sense is when it gets extended/stacked.

randomfightfan.4091:

Addressed and ignored by you. Just because you say you don’t like a certain avenue to counter something does not make it not count as a counter. You’re right though, that wasn’t a BOOM moment. The real BOOM moment was when you refuse to use stealth counters then complain there’s no stealth counters. I also think it’s HILARIOUS that you said MY post was dead after the 1st paragraph.

And I gave you other counters to letting the thief get stealth. Way to ignore them.

Because it is not a acceptable avenue of a counter. No other profession needs a in game item sold at a vender to be countered. Every other profession can be countered with decent play (most of the time minus a few builds), except Thief. You will never kill a decent/skilled Thief 1v1 unless he is akitten or just seriously off his game that day.

You gave poor examples at best. A multitude of people can post a bunch of random situations (as I have shown in my post and pointed out in others), but in all they account for nothing. The fact remains, there is no profession that has a skill that directly counters stealth. The point of the topic yet again. Reading helps.

ensoriki.5789:

So what?
The only time stealth is problematic in any sense is when it gets extended/stacked.

It is when you can so easily hop back into stealth multiple times in one fight. I have easily fought and nearly killed plenty of Thieves for more minutes than I care to say. I don’t mind they can extend stealth while in it. I don’t care if Thieves can attack form stealth. That is not the point. The point of the thread is that the Thief class is based on abusing this skill. They are forced into a cheap ability that has no counter from a profession in game. That is the problem.

A secondary problem of stealth is: The ease at which Thieves can enter stealth and the amount of time in between stealths’. Pure stealth ( GW2 stealth) is a horrible game choice. Leaving nothing to the opponents but swinging in the wind is just bad game design. Making it so a class can do this every 3 seconds (originally) or 4 seconds (now) is just dumb. Making a class rely on this type of cheap skill is even worse.

I have nothing against pure stealth as it has it place, but that place is not 2 feet in front of a opponents face in broad daylight.

They stated strategic stealth (situational stealth not spam-able) was going to be in this game and instead we have pure stealth.

Vanthian.9267:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Interrupt the heartseeker. A thief peeling from a team fight (spvp) is naturally going to spike you from far away. But it can only be 900 range with out infiltrators’. Most interrupts or blinds have 900 range.

Good awareness goes a long way.

Blinding Powder only puts a thief in stealth for 3s, if they use it far away that’s useless and would be taken out of it by the time the reach a fight.

Point in the later post being:

Engaged in fight, Thief swaps weapon to short bow. Shortbow 5, Shortbow 5—>Blinding Powder.

Your only hope to stop this would be to stun the thief after the weapon swap, even then you would be lucky to get him stunned in that place. There have been plenty of times I fought decent Thieves who can swap and shortbow 5 fast enough that my stun hits them while they travel and they still make it to their destination (Stun animation are slower than dirt on Warriors). Not many professions can cover 1800 range so quickly and with such ease unless they have every cool down up needed (such as Warrior Sword 2+Greatsword 5). I know that shortbow 5 takes 4 initiative to use, but again Thieves only really spam when they are securing a kill (obvious 2222222) or running away (555555).

I understand awareness is key in ever hoping to kill a thief, but a decent Thief will not be killed by one person.

I have given up on humanity’s intellect on this post. You are either a troll, or really, really, unintelligent.

Please answer this. How much initiative do you think a thief has ?

EoNxBoNx.9213:

I have given up on humanity’s intellect on this post. You are either a troll, or really, really, unintelligent.

Please answer this. How much initiative do you think a thief has ?

I understand you have a hard time reading now (I apologize for assuming you could read and comprehend basic English), so I will take this slow and easy for you. Baby steps and all.

A Thief has 12 initiative unless traited which boost his total pool to 15. Now… let me break it down…

A new Thief has 12 initiative. A traited Thief has 15 initiative (if he has traited into the tricky line).

You need me to go slower? Perhaps smaller words would help?

Edit: Encase you still fail to grasp what I have just wrote:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative

I also refrained from telling you this, but since you are being … who you are I guess, only a idiot Thief would try to peel with Heartseeker spams. Heartseeker spams leave you vulnerable for the duration of the leap. Where as with shortbow 5 you are teleported instantly (given the animation is what 1 second?). Meanwhile, you would choose to use Heartseeker (animation of 3/4 a second) to cover half the ground while vulnerable to attacks.

While timing: Heartseeker spam (4 times): Roughly 3.5 seconds to completion while being vulnerable to attacks.
Infiltrator’s Arrow (2 times): Roughly 2.0 seconds to completions while teleporting to target location. This skill can also be used “skillfully” to shadow step to places you would other wise have to walk around a hill to or walk up stairs/ramps.

Meaning, ofcourse, if you see a thief BP>Heartseeker and interrupt it, he will have just wasted 9/12 or 9/15 initiative. This is both assuming he has full initiative.
The former leaves the thief only with enough initiative to heartseeker. Let alone shortbow away for 6 or try the previous BP>Seeker combo again for another 9.

So let’s try asking this again.
You have the option to severely cripple a thief by interrupting/dodging/blocking their stealth.
You don’t do this because ____?

Vanthian.9267:

Thief is by far the class that needs the least amount of skill to achieve.

I stopped here. You sir are incredibly wrong. Almost everyone on the forums that complains first, and then gives it a try QUICKLY eat their words. And realize just how difficult the thief profession is. If it was really as op as you say why isn’t it ranked tier 1 among the professions. I’m not mad or anything just give it a good weeks play and come back with results. I bet your prospective will change. Ill even give you a pretty good dagger/dagger build (assuming that’s the one you don’t like so much).

Rastaman.9015:

Vanthian.9267:

Thief is by far the class that needs the least amount of skill to achieve.

I stopped here. You sir are incredibly wrong. Almost everyone on the forums that complains first, and then gives it a try QUICKLY eat their words. And realize just how difficult the thief profession is. If it was really as op as you say why isn’t it ranked tier 1 among the professions. I’m not mad or anything just give it a good weeks play and come back with results. I bet your prospective will change. Ill even give you a pretty good dagger/dagger build (assuming that’s the one you don’t like so much).

You should stop assuming and perhaps read the post then you might know what I am complaining about.

Even one of your own asked me how many times I have to repeat myself, and regrettable it seems I will have to forever with this group.

I never claimed the Thief is OP. Not once did I complain that the Thief is a “OP” profession. I simply stated what many people have said, the Thief has a cheap profession ability. That ability in question is stealth. It is not the Thief but how he relies on stealth for everything that is bad design. To make the matter worse, they saw fit to give no profession in this game a skill that can counter a in stealth person.

That is a rough summary, perhaps reading before assuming will help.

Vanthian.9267:

Reduktion.5791:

cheapest thread
play thief please or just leave this place

You have the fear of stealth nerf. I have a thief and it doesn’t change the fact stealth is cheap.

you have right – YOU are cheap

(thx for delete in time

Jumper.9482:

Meaning, ofcourse, if you see a thief BP>Heartseeker and interrupt it, he will have just wasted 9/12 or 9/15 initiative. This is both assuming he has full initiative.
The former leaves the thief only with enough initiative to heartseeker. Let alone shortbow away for 6 or try the previous BP>Seeker combo again for another 9.

So let’s try asking this again.
You have the option to severely cripple a thief by interrupting/dodging/blocking their stealth.
You don’t do this because ____?

Because not all professions have the ability to do this. Some professions don’t’ have many options for ranged cc believe it or not.

Perhaps you are using your selective memory on the above situation. How is one suppose to “stun/disable” the Thief when he uses his blackpowder which not only leaves a smoke field but also blinds the current target. Sure it is only one auto attack away from getting the blind off, but by the time you wipe the blind he is already half way through his heartseeker (basically in stealth). Yes, you could dodge the initial blackpowder but the dodge animation will surely hamper your timing on the “stun/disable”.

Is it possible to stop this type of stealth from happening? Sometimes, yes. Is it possible to revel the Thief once in stealth with a profession ability? No. (which is the point of the thread).

Reduktion.5791:

you have right – YOU are cheap

(thx for delete in time

It seems you have reading comprehension problems…. I usually don’t respond to these types of “posts” (if you can call it that) but this one is so bad.. I actually feel sorry for you.

It is neither witty nor on topic. It does a very poor job of insulting the one intended (it reflects back on his poor reading skills more than on me being “cheap”).

Perhaps a comment on how my topic is not correct and how the stealth in this game is fine the way it is? Or maybe a comment on how to better improve the Thief next time.

Vanthian.9267:

2) Increase the reveled de-buff to at least 8 to 10 seconds. Make them actually fight and think about what they are going to do instead of allowing them to just stealth backstab, teleport around while evading back into stealth just to have all of their conditions removed and fill their initiative to full. To all of you who will whine that this will ruin the class… you still have the most evades on any weapon set. You have them for a reason. You have another skills beside 2 and 1. Learn to use them.

3) Remove the unbalanced pure stealth from the game and make it a silhouette stealth. This way skilled players can actually do something about stealth; instead of letting bad players completely benefit from having a advantage the entire fight.

The fight is always in the Thiefs hands no matter who they face. They choose who they fight and don’t. No class should be able to do this with such ease as they do. No class should be able to get away when they have been beaten by a more skillful player just by using stealth. Stealth allows this class to just poke and prod the opponent with no draw backs. Since all of their skills rely on the very cheap initiative system, they rarely have to think about what to do since it will all be restored in a short order of time (much shorter than all the other classes good skills with 20+ second cooldowns).

4) If you get hit in stealth you are removed from stealth. This one is harsh but the best for the current system since you can just spam stealth anyway. You only have to be visible for 4 seconds so if someone is skilled enough to follow you and hit you, he deserves to be rewarded.

None of these suggestions would make Thief horrible and useless like all of you will claim. You fear actually having to use slight skill and thought before you engage someone. In the current situation of the game you have 0 risk involved in engaging anyone.

Edit: There is no argument against stealth being a cheap class ability. You have no defense and you know it is true. This is why the majority of the first comments are mere mocking comments more than discussion about the ability.

everyone fell for the troll
same kitten like every qq thread about thieves
2/10 made me giggle
op obviously has nothing better to do
inb4 reply

No Walking.6349:

TL;DR – I don’t know how to fight thieves and they always kill me. Instead of learning how to fight them I think they should be nerfed!

Well said. Goes right along with my MMORPG saying:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed

I knew the majority of decent players left this game early on, but I did not realize it was so many. Time to stop responding to the “leet players”.

It is a sad day for a MMO when players would rather keep a cheap profession ability than see the game improved into something that could be actually fun and exciting.

Keep on stealthing around uselessly…. one day you will understand the point of this thread.

Best of luck I suppose.

Vanthian.9267:

Jumper.9482:

Meaning, ofcourse, if you see a thief BP>Heartseeker and interrupt it, he will have just wasted 9/12 or 9/15 initiative. This is both assuming he has full initiative.
The former leaves the thief only with enough initiative to heartseeker. Let alone shortbow away for 6 or try the previous BP>Seeker combo again for another 9.

So let’s try asking this again.
You have the option to severely cripple a thief by interrupting/dodging/blocking their stealth.
You don’t do this because ____?

Because not all professions have the ability to do this. Some professions don’t’ have many options for ranged cc believe it or not.

Pretty sure most currently viable tPvP builds carry around 2 or more interrupts.

What you’re basically asking is that while there are 2 options to avoiding most damage in this game (avoiding the Shield Bash/BullCharge/iLeap/Updraft vs stunbreaking the damage portion Eviscerate/100b/BF/BurningSpeed), you not only want Thieves to be able to countered from going into stealth losing the majority of their initiative (skilled play, similar to dodging the setup of other classes), getting cleaved down by aoe or block/invulned/dodged (avoiding the damage portion), but also you want some third option because you’re too bad to react to the situation.

No Walking.6349:

TL;DR – I don’t know how to fight thieves and they always kill me. Instead of learning how to fight them I think they should be nerfed!

+1

Vanthian.9267:

The fact remains, there is no profession that has a skill that directly counters to stealth.

There’s no profession that has any direct counter to ranger pets, shouts, clones, invulnerability and so on. We are incredibly vulnerable while in stealth – we can take damage but doesn’t deal any.. Many other players have given plenty of counters to stealth that should be more than sufficient to kill a thief. I can’t count how many times good players have killed me while I was stealthed. As far as I see it, stealth is something that scare new players (humans fear what they can’t see) but amuse good players. I find it fun and challenging to fight a good thief, trying to predict his moves and position is heightening my skill level too.

I see a discussion regarding I initiative and skill spamming, so I’ll respond to that one too. Any good thief will never spam heart seeker – they use it once, to finish off their target ( nothing makes me more afraid seeing a thief with dagger main hand while I have 10% hp). As for initiative, it’s not never ending. For us to get more initiative we have to sacrifice damage – so that’s fair. While other professions have blown their cool downs they can just swap weapon sets and have new fresh cool downs, if a thief blow all his initiative (enemy evade, block and stuff while thief use his skills) he’s out of skills to use. It’s a pro in some points, but initiative also has its downsides.

Hey, everybody.
We have decided to lock this thread, as it is clearly a non-constructive thread with high risk of being derailed. Please keep in mind to create threads that provide constructive feedback and the possibility to start a healthy conversation.