Guild Wars 2

What else is new? All these “nerf thief” threads make me laugh. Same thing has happened in every MMO I’ve ever played with a stealth class.

Sure and in every MMO that I play the stealth class was stronger in 1 vs 1 than other classes, but not here.

Thiefs can be explained by a simple sentence-
High risk high reward.
And thats about it.

itamar.4690:

Thiefs can be explained by a simple sentence-
High risk high reward.
And thats about it.

Tell this the warrior

To be fair, there are some major issues with the stealth implementation. Stealth should be removed on a failed hit, I.e. one that whiffed against a block or evade. It is also currently far too easy to escape as a thief compared to any other class versus some classes, but that is more a lack of ability to force fights in other classes than a reflection on how easy it is to run away on a thief.

-You can still hit a thief with AOE when he/she is in stealth, AOE stuns and chills are the perfect tool to win.
-There are many ways to counter a backstab, timing the stealth of the thief and dodge can be very useful, the best way to understand this timing is by dueling with thieves or creating a thief and learn by yourself, but if that’s not an option for you, you could evade/block the backstab.
-If we want to have a decent backstab/burst damage, we have to sacrifice a lot of survivability, this means a thief can drop you as fast as you can drop him.

But, I do agree with foofad, a blocked or evaded backstab should reveal the thief. Maybe Anet could make it so that a failed backstab reveals us (not only with blocks and evades, just by hitting the air instead of the enemy), that way it would take more skill to play a backstab thief.

Minutes ago I won 1v5 in wvw. I bet they were mad “omg thief such BS, OP, nerf!”, while they were just terribad. 2 d/d zerk eles(lol), 1 zerk ranger, 1 zerk(I guess? his armor was quite low) guard and 1 upleveled… Every time I downed someone, or cnd-ed someone what they did was stopping moving, stopping attacking and overall being sitting ducks.

Yesterday, a single non buffed mesmer kicked really hard my applied fortitude 25 precision stacked kitten . Not even in one moment of our fight did I feel I was winning. Several days ago same thing did a beastmaster ranger… list goes on – I bet they don’t cry “thief op” on forums.

See a pattern?

if you won 1 v 5 they were the worst of the worst of the worst of players. no insult to you …im sure u are quite good and w.e. but 1 v 5 is impossible with any build against decent or above players.

and you are exactly right pavel. there are times like that against any build or any class or any player. every build has a nemesis. players build in wvw sothey dont die in a zerg…whcih is smart. but thats also not going to allow them to win a 1 v 1. just like the thief builds we roam with wont allow us to zerg.

itamar.4690:

Thiefs can be explained by a simple sentence-
Low risk high reward.
And thats about it.

fixed it for you

Pavel.8531:

Minutes ago I won 1v5 in wvw. I bet they were mad “omg thief such BS, OP, nerf!”, while they were just terribad. 2 d/d zerk eles(lol), 1 zerk ranger, 1 zerk(I guess? his armor was quite low) guard and 1 upleveled… Every time I downed someone, or cnd-ed someone what they did was stopping moving, stopping attacking and overall being sitting ducks.

Yesterday, a single non buffed mesmer kicked really hard my applied fortitude 25 precision stacked kitten . Not even in one moment of our fight did I feel I was winning. Several days ago same thing did a beastmaster ranger… list goes on – I bet they don’t cry “thief op” on forums.

See a pattern?

Im sure they only use dmg skills or trust the passive effect of their signets. No challenge for every class.

Black Teagan.9215:

Pavel.8531:

Minutes ago I won 1v5 in wvw. I bet they were mad “omg thief such BS, OP, nerf!”, while they were just terribad. 2 d/d zerk eles(lol), 1 zerk ranger, 1 zerk(I guess? his armor was quite low) guard and 1 upleveled… Every time I downed someone, or cnd-ed someone what they did was stopping moving, stopping attacking and overall being sitting ducks.

Yesterday, a single non buffed mesmer kicked really hard my applied fortitude 25 precision stacked kitten . Not even in one moment of our fight did I feel I was winning. Several days ago same thing did a beastmaster ranger… list goes on – I bet they don’t cry “thief op” on forums.

See a pattern?

Im sure they only use dmg skills or trust the passive effect of their signets. No challenge for every class.

Not true… the pure dps output from 4 zerker “bots”(can’t qualify them as players) can kill most classes, that have nothing as an option to get some pressure off in some way(like thieves and mesmers) even if the player playing the class is extremely good. And that is why the most experienced roamers have switched to thieves… to be able to evade death from “blob bots”. And here we go – several blob bots, thinking they are so great when they roll with the zerg meet a pro roamer and think “we outnumber him, so we SHOULD win”… crying on forums ensue.

blob bots? thats a new term in my book…can you elaborate?

The difference between Stealth in GW2 and Stealth in old MMOs is that you dont need a target to attack in GW2. So stealth doesnt give as much of an advantage as those old tab targeting games.

In exchange, it won’t matter if you take a scattershot in the face and fly 5m, you won’t be revealed.

DanH.5879:

itamar.4690:

Thiefs can be explained by a simple sentence-
Low risk high reward.
And thats about it.

fixed it for you

In what way in hell thiefs have low risk?

itamar.4690:

DanH.5879:

itamar.4690:

Thiefs can be explained by a simple sentence-
Low risk high reward.
And thats about it.

fixed it for you

In what way in hell thiefs have low risk?

In the sense that no matter what happens, you can pack enough condition clearing and stealth to escape virtually any situation in WvW, bar none. If there’s no chance of death, then the “risk” side of “risk versus reward” is rather limited in scope.

foofad.5162:

itamar.4690:

DanH.5879:

itamar.4690:

Thiefs can be explained by a simple sentence-
Low risk high reward.
And thats about it.

fixed it for you

In what way in hell thiefs have low risk?

In the sense that no matter what happens, you can pack enough condition clearing and stealth to escape virtually any situation in WvW, bar none. If there’s no chance of death, then the “risk” side of “risk versus reward” is rather limited in scope.

I see that you are a guardian, thief can easily escape a guardian, but in no way he should be able to kill him. obviously (you are here, “fixing” stuff in the forums) ur doing something wrong.
i assume ur a traditional MMO player so you wont be able to understand this, but in few circumstances this game is like a rock paper scissors.
rock>scissors>paper>rock etc
as a guardian you have problems against thiefs? a warrior would crush them (just an example) so just the fact that you as a guardian have a problem with thief doesnt apply to all the classes.
and just for the record, obviously you were just getting constantly outplayed by thiefs so this conversation is pointless

I agree to itmar, we are quite the squishy class, and the tankiest I have ever been I had 18.4k health. I honestly think people who think thieves should be nerfed just gotta learn how to fight thieves, but I don’t exactly wanna tell them since I play as a thief

itamar.4690:

foofad.5162:

itamar.4690:

DanH.5879:

itamar.4690:

Thiefs can be explained by a simple sentence-
Low risk high reward.
And thats about it.

fixed it for you

In what way in hell thiefs have low risk?

In the sense that no matter what happens, you can pack enough condition clearing and stealth to escape virtually any situation in WvW, bar none. If there’s no chance of death, then the “risk” side of “risk versus reward” is rather limited in scope.

I see that you are a guardian, thief can easily escape a guardian, but in no way he should be able to kill him. obviously (you are here, “fixing” stuff in the forums) ur doing something wrong.

I see you’ve never fought an offensive Guardian before.

itamar.4690:

DanH.5879:

itamar.4690:

Thiefs can be explained by a simple sentence-
Low risk high reward.
And thats about it.

fixed it for you

In what way in hell thiefs have low risk?

Of all classes, thief has BY FAR the best escape abilities, at least if you run any of the popular specs such as d/d, p/d, s/d or d/p. Only s/p might be differend but hardly anyone runs that.
If you feel very vulnerable as a thief, you are probably not using a very good build.

So the correct saying would be:
thief is low risk, low reward
since there is no rewards for soloing WvW :P

Unless if you run short bow thief and just spam #4 in zergs, then thief becomes
low risk, high reward
xD

Master of Timespace.2548:

Of all classes, thief has BY FAR the best escape abilities,

I disagree, anyone playing a norn has the best escape option in the game. Snow leopard form racial elite. Hit it, stealth (#5), then use the 1600 range dash (hold down #4) and youre out of combat and they have no idea where you are and you can WP away.

DanH.5879:

itamar.4690:

Thiefs can be explained by a simple sentence-
Low risk high reward.
And thats about it.

fixed it for you

Thanks , i meant to get around to that.

wish.1027:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Of all classes, thief has BY FAR the best escape abilities,

I disagree, anyone playing a norn has the best escape option in the game. Snow leopard form racial elite. Hit it, stealth (#5), then use the 1600 range dash (hold down #4) and youre out of combat and they have no idea where you are and you can WP away.

but but they so big and clunky

wish.1027:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Of all classes, thief has BY FAR the best escape abilities,

I disagree, anyone playing a norn has the best escape option in the game. Snow leopard form racial elite. Hit it, stealth (#5), then use the 1600 range dash (hold down #4) and youre out of combat and they have no idea where you are and you can WP away.

I have norn warrior and can tell from experience that it’s not as viable as the many options thief has. Basically because of the long cl and because you have to sacrifice the good elite signet for it. That signet is very important for most warrior builds.
It is still a very good skill of course, but it’s very long cl really limits its use.
Also, as a thief you don’t need to wp. Basically any mob group suffices as a good place to hide if you are x/d, and if you are d/p, you only need some space to chain your combo.

Master of Timespace.2548:

I have norn warrior and can tell from experience that it’s not as viable as the many options thief has. Basically because of the long cl and because you have to sacrifice the good elite signet for it. That signet is very important for most warrior builds.
As a thief I also hardly ever have to WP to get out of a fight. For any x/d spec it’s enough to just find a mob to chain stealth from.

What you have to give up to run it doesnt actually matter. Its the best skill in the game for running from fights. Some classes just dont need skills like that, like Warrior and Thief. Its ridiculously OP for some classes though, like Guardian, who dont have the ability to run from 5-6 people the way warriors or thieves do.

I also wasnt trying to imply that you had to WP, I just wanted to point out that the dash actually breaks combat, that it puts you far enough away that you could WP. Sorry for the confusion there.

As far as the 3 minute cooldown… how often do you need to run from fights that it is to long for you? Maybe you have some other issues you should work on.

wish.1027:

Master of Timespace.2548:

I have norn warrior and can tell from experience that it’s not as viable as the many options thief has. Basically because of the long cl and because you have to sacrifice the good elite signet for it. That signet is very important for most warrior builds.
As a thief I also hardly ever have to WP to get out of a fight. For any x/d spec it’s enough to just find a mob to chain stealth from.

What you have to give up to run it doesnt actually matter. Its the best skill in the game for running from fights. Some classes just dont need skills like that, like Warrior and Thief. Its ridiculously OP for some classes though, like Guardian, who dont have the ability to run from 5-6 people the way warriors or thieves do.

I also wasnt trying to imply that you had to WP, I just wanted to point out that the dash actually breaks combat, that it puts you far enough away that you could WP. Sorry for the confusion there.

The difference between a leopard norn and a thief is following:

thief is losing a fight => resets and comes back in under 30 seconds => repeat. (I do this all the time and I don’t seem to be alone :P)
norn is losing a fight => resets but doesn’t come back in a while. Or if he does*, he can’t reset again.

*Since he had to use the leopard form in the first place, it’s unlikely he has enough mobility to catch you anyway.

Namica.2951:

Same thing has happened in every MMO I’ve ever played with a stealth class.

There is a reason that stealth is so consistently complained about in almost all mmos.

On paper, it sounds like stealth would be fun. In reality though, fighting something that you can’t see, or slips away constantly is a test of frustration. The same applies to something that hits without warning, and hits hard and can run away fast.
Put them all into a single class, as is what every mmo seems to do, and complaints will be guaranteed regardless of how balanced the class is. I honestly don’t get why every mmo I play repeats this mistake over and over.

Master of Timespace.2548:

wish.1027:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Of all classes, thief has BY FAR the best escape abilities,

I disagree, anyone playing a norn has the best escape option in the game. Snow leopard form racial elite. Hit it, stealth (#5), then use the 1600 range dash (hold down #4) and youre out of combat and they have no idea where you are and you can WP away.

I have norn warrior and can tell from experience that it’s not as viable as the many options thief has. Basically because of the long cl and because you have to sacrifice the good elite signet for it. That signet is very important for most warrior builds.
It is still a very good skill of course, but it’s very long cl really limits its use.
Also, as a thief you don’t need to wp. Basically any mob group suffices as a good place to hide if you are x/d, and if you are d/p, you only need some space to chain your combo.

Warriors have a trait at 10pts that gives passive 25% increased movement speed, your GS #5 skill and Sword #2 skill get you a LOT of distance, I can’t even catch them on a thief unless I want to waste my utility (which I don’t).

DanH.5879:

itamar.4690:

Thiefs can be explained by a simple sentence-
Low risk high reward.
And thats about it.

fixed it for you

Correct!

Well at least

All other Mmo’s Stealth are countered,

Yet

Only

In Guild Wars 2

You will Find Stealh Uncounterable

And Not Forgetting

Only in Guild Wars 2 mmo

You will Find Perma-Stealth

Yet that also is

Uncounterable

And Hated with Malice

Burnfall.9573:

Well at least

All other Mmo’s Stealth are countered,

Yet

Only

In Guild Wars 2

You will Find Stealh Uncounterable

And Not Forgetting

Only in Guild Wars 2 mmo

You will Find Perma-Stealth

Yet that also is

Uncounterable

And Hated with Malice

vs. Scrubs

Fixed*

itamar.4690:

foofad.5162:

In the sense that no matter what happens, you can pack enough condition clearing and stealth to escape virtually any situation in WvW, bar none. If there’s no chance of death, then the “risk” side of “risk versus reward” is rather limited in scope.

I see that you are a guardian, thief can easily escape a guardian, but in no way he should be able to kill him. obviously (you are here, “fixing” stuff in the forums) ur doing something wrong.
i assume ur a traditional MMO player so you wont be able to understand this, but in few circumstances this game is like a rock paper scissors.
rock>scissors>paper>rock etc
as a guardian you have problems against thiefs? a warrior would crush them (just an example) so just the fact that you as a guardian have a problem with thief doesnt apply to all the classes.
and just for the record, obviously you were just getting constantly outplayed by thiefs so this conversation is pointless

Sorry honey, I have an 80 WvW roam Thief as well. S/D+D/P. Nothing catches me if I don’t want to be caught. My 80 Mesmer is even envious of my Thief. Nobody catches my Thief. Not even Warriors. If you’re getting caught by Warriors, you might need to make some changes. It’s not Rock Paper Scissors. It’s Get Out of Jail Free.

So if you’re done being a frothing blowhard, the people who have been on both sides of the issue would like to continue talking about things like adults.

foofad.5162:

It’s not Rock Paper Scissors. It’s Get Out of Jail Free.

This is exactly my problem with stealth in this game in and the thief in general. This shouldn’t be a thing.

Burnfall.9573:

Well at least

All other Mmo’s Stealth are countered,

Yet

Only

In Guild Wars 2

You will Find Stealh Uncounterable

And Not Forgetting

Only in Guild Wars 2 mmo

You will Find Perma-Stealth

Yet that also is

Uncounterable

And Hated with Malice

Oh yeah, let’s take a look at World of Warcraft Wrath of the Lich king.

Rogue: stealth
Player: aoe attack to try unstealth the thief (miss)
Player: aoe attack on cd
Rogue: sap for 9 seconds
Rogue: Premed > Shadowstep > 10k ambush > kidneyshot (stun for 5 seconds)
Player: stunbreak
Rogue: Blind (disorient/disable for 7 seconds)
Rogue: leaves combat > restealth > sap chain to remove dimishing returns on stun
Rogue: Cheap shot (stun for 3 seconds) > hemo/backstab > Kidney shot (stun for 3 seconds) > Vanish > Ambush 7k > Eviscerate 5k

Can’t remember durations and damage numbers fully. But yeah, compared
to GW2 thieves, WoW rogues have so many stuns and disorients that in 1v1
they are hardly counterable, you need a lot of luck and armor/resilience.

And stealth is permanent, you go in stealth, attacks channeling on you stops,
and only way to unstealth you is offensive aoes which have cooldowns, and
sap has good range so is really easy to avoid AoE’s. No one can dodge your attacks, and your stealth attack can’t fail. WoW rogues can escape 25 ppl if they’d like.

In GW2 we don’t have any disables besides 1½ seconds basilisk and immobilize,
we can stealth a lot, but people can also swing at us, channel attacks at us, and
and knock us down while in stealth. What makes us a bit stronger is that we have
access to heals which all other classes have as well.

Ah and yeah, undergeared ppl on WoW are one shotted by ambush,
glass cannons are 2 shotted.

Master of Timespace.2548:

thief is losing a fight => resets and comes back in under 30 seconds => repeat. (I do this all the time and I don’t seem to be alone :P)
norn is losing a fight => resets but doesn’t come back in a while. Or if he does*, he can’t reset again.

Let me make this a little clearer since it’ll be the second time I say it, if a 3 minute timer is to long for you, maybe you should look into adjusting your playstyle, because youre not very good. lol

In all of these topics there is just one thing to say, really. Perma-stealth needs to be removed. Really.

And thereafter, buff thieves.

Stealth class is always hated in mmos because at start devs never get it right. Devs cant seem to grasp how powerful tool stealth is. When WoW were launched during vanilla I played thief and I could kill fully geared people, naked with starter dagger. One guy even made successful series about it and its still on Wcm.

When Gw2 launched stealth was horrible. People couldnt see who killed them only when thief was stomping them game showed thief. In WvWvW it was even worse. Few times I knew I was fighting thief because I could hear his attack sounds but I never managed to see them not even after they stomped me.

Both games had typical mmo flaws with thief/rogue class. Stealth and high burst damage combined. Which result in total mess. Which in result ended in hatered of stealth class.

wish.1027:

Master of Timespace.2548:

thief is losing a fight => resets and comes back in under 30 seconds => repeat. (I do this all the time and I don’t seem to be alone :P)
norn is losing a fight => resets but doesn’t come back in a while. Or if he does*, he can’t reset again.

Let me make this a little clearer since it’ll be the second time I say it, if a 3 minute timer is to long for you, maybe you should look into adjusting your playstyle, because youre not very good. lol

Well it is long enough for my opponents to get away, dolyak to slip away, camp to be flipped and most importantly, long enough for my opponents skills to come out of cl xD.

because youre not very good. lol

Yay, now it’s all about me !

Sil.4560:

foofad.5162:

It’s not Rock Paper Scissors. It’s Get Out of Jail Free.

This is exactly my problem with stealth in this game in and the thief in general. This shouldn’t be a thing.

if u say something like this….its fine if u feel this….but tell us the consequence….. :P

dont just say he can leave combat and it makes me grumpy bumpy :< lol

what does it change as far as game tactics go or how does it give one side an advantage. last time i checked 1 v 1 doesnt change anything. and last time i checked group play does. also if i remember right thieves dont really play well with others so the consequently dont really change much of the flow of the game. they might get roamers out n about but then again why is that person roaming? there are plenty of peopleto run with :P

Travlane.5948:

Sil.4560:

foofad.5162:

It’s not Rock Paper Scissors. It’s Get Out of Jail Free.

This is exactly my problem with stealth in this game in and the thief in general. This shouldn’t be a thing.

if u say something like this….its fine if u feel this….but tell us the consequence….. :P

dont just say he can leave combat and it makes me grumpy bumpy :< lol

what does it change as far as game tactics go or how does it give one side an advantage. last time i checked 1 v 1 doesnt change anything. and last time i checked group play does. also if i remember right thieves dont really play well with others so the consequently dont really change much of the flow of the game. they might get roamers out n about but then again why is that person roaming? there are plenty of peopleto run with :P

But then why are you complaining about the basilisk venom in the other topic? Why even play a thief? Just roll a guard and run in a zerg if that’s all that matters in this game…

@SIL.4560

there are plenty of other classes that can reset or flee too. ill list them in order of cowardice prowess

ANY NORN lol
warrior
ele
mesmer
ranger
guardian
engineer
necro

yes thief is in the top tied with warriors but usually the thief doesnt reset. hes right there in range and just biding time. just sayin :P

yes thief is in the top tied with warriors but usually the thief doesnt reset. hes right there in range and just biding time. just sayin :P

This kind of behavior is exactly what separates someone who just runs away with norn leopard elite and a thief. Thief can just move away enough for the cls to recharge, and then come back, and repeat this till the world ends if necessary.

and only a ding dong would entertain that and stand there waiting. go on to more important stuff. if they were smart like that then the person invis would be at the disadvantage :P oh well. some people never learn

Travlane.5948:

and only a ding dong would entertain that and stand there waiting. go on to more important stuff. if they were smart like that then the person invis would be at the disadvantage :P oh well. some people never learn

Like goto work?

Master of Timespace.2548:

yes thief is in the top tied with warriors but usually the thief doesnt reset. hes right there in range and just biding time. just sayin :P

This kind of behavior is exactly what separates someone who just runs away with norn leopard elite and a thief. Thief can just move away enough for the cls to recharge, and then come back, and repeat this till the world ends if necessary.

And the person with snowleopard only runs when he suddenly becomes vastly outnumbered, otherwise he wins. And when he suddenly becomes vastly outnumbered, hes not going to go back into the large group… so 3 minutes is more than fine. Thieves who need to constantly reset fights when not greatly outnumbered are just pathetic.

wish.1027:

Master of Timespace.2548:

yes thief is in the top tied with warriors but usually the thief doesnt reset. hes right there in range and just biding time. just sayin :P

This kind of behavior is exactly what separates someone who just runs away with norn leopard elite and a thief. Thief can just move away enough for the cls to recharge, and then come back, and repeat this till the world ends if necessary.

And the person with snowleopard only runs when he suddenly becomes vastly outnumbered, otherwise he wins. And when he suddenly becomes vastly outnumbered, hes not going to go back into the large group… so 3 minutes is more than fine. Thieves who need to constantly reset fights when not greatly outnumbered are just pathetic.

many d/p [players go invis 10 secs at a time to heal up. :P i run p/d currently ankitten ever invis more than 1.5 seconds.

Travlane.5948:

wish.1027:

Master of Timespace.2548:

yes thief is in the top tied with warriors but usually the thief doesnt reset. hes right there in range and just biding time. just sayin :P

This kind of behavior is exactly what separates someone who just runs away with norn leopard elite and a thief. Thief can just move away enough for the cls to recharge, and then come back, and repeat this till the world ends if necessary.

And the person with snowleopard only runs when he suddenly becomes vastly outnumbered, otherwise he wins. And when he suddenly becomes vastly outnumbered, hes not going to go back into the large group… so 3 minutes is more than fine. Thieves who need to constantly reset fights when not greatly outnumbered are just pathetic.

many d/p [players go invis 10 secs at a time to heal up. :P i run p/d currently ankitten ever invis more than 1.5 seconds.

Yes, it’s the ridiculous d/p crap I’m talking about. I run p/d too, and you can’t sit in stealths because if you do, you can’t put enough pressure on the opponents with the somewhat low damage of that build.

And the person with snowleopard only runs when he suddenly becomes vastly outnumbered, otherwise he wins.

If he needs the snowleopard to escape, his opponent can probably escape from him too though. This isn’t true when fighting thieves .

exactly which is why i left lame kitten D/P

WoW took a slow methodical class, and turned it into the kitten we see in games today, High Burst/Multiple Stealths/High Mobility super class that generally gets complained about a lot.

There is nothing remotely challenging about playing a class that can escape at will and requires a zerg of people to actually kill. I have a thief..It is not challenge, there is little risk to playing it…To pretend it requires skill is hilarious

I’m going to link you guys to the greatest Stealther Video in a game to date…this is why no one takes anyone who plays a stealther past WoW seriously

wiw DAOC looks sooo lame