Guild Wars 2

Docherty.8372:

What do I mean? Well, look at the roots of this class and it’s abilities – in D&D, look at how stealth is implemented there:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Stealth

What do we notice? It’s a very complex system with many checks and balances – not saying this is appropriate for GW2, but it does demonstrate the regressive and utterly nonsensical implementation of stealth in GW2.

Here it is less an interesting and flavorsome system than it is a crude client invisibility hack.

I hate to sound mean, but GW2 designers are inexperienced and unimaginative, and need to go back to fantasy-gaming school and learn the lessons of systems developed over the span of decades and millions of hours of play.

Bad example.

D&D (this looks like 3rd edition) isn’t actually a “complex system with checks and balances.” You’re presenting some fairly simple rules — you need to use the environment to stealth while being observed, or a momentary distraction created by using an action to Bluff; the rest is just the bloated mass of modifiers typical of how (that edition of) the game does skills.

How did players actually use these rules in practice? Well, either…
1. Mostly they just used basic stealth checks to sneak and scout a bit, and then when combat started the rogue player would be trying to set up sneak attacks with flaking (since that was an easy-to-resolve and pretty intuitive mechanic that didn’t require four paragraphs about roll modifiers).
2. Look at the ginormous bonuses under “If you are invisible…” If you actually want to abuse in-combat stealth, you just cast a spell or drink a potion and the ridiculous modifier compensates for all that other stuff about -5 this and -10 that. Then you’re totally the D&D (3rd edition) incarnation of a P/D thief, endlessly taking potshots at people who have no idea where you are; don’t even have to close in and use Cloak & Dagger! The only difference is that most GMs will eventually “cheat” a bit, whether consciously or subconsciously, and have the baddies zero in on your location.

So, what is it exactly that GW2 is supposed to learn from Dungeons & Dragons (3rd edition)?

Docherty.8372:

Xae.7204:

Daecollo.9578:

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcMzM9mMgoLMMgoMM0xax0ckqmcoz8khT70z7070c7kIM70V7ow370m

Follow that directly, you will be a TANK that can put the pain on any thief you come across, flamethrower is the thieves WORSE nightmare? hes stealthed but thieves are ALWAYS in melee range, so if he stealths just flame and run in circles until your combat log hits something.

Your almost dead? Switch to heal kit, heal for full, repeat, he will eventually have to run away.

El.
Oh.
El.

You have no clue.

Seriously, I’m cross posting this to the Engineer forum for laughs.

You take conflicting talents. You take broken talents. You ignore good talents. Seriously, this is the funniest thing I have seen in a week.

What exactly did you expect from a Thief player who tries to claim he’s not OP? These guys are FOTMers, and will defend their crutch to the bitter end.

A full-power Thief is not intimidated by 30k HP – I speak from experience – the Mug/C&D/BS combo can hit for up to and over 20k even on full-bunker specs, then it’s a matter of two more landed heartseekers (up to another 10-15k) and nobody will survive. Nobody, hear? I never met a player I couldn’t own with my Thief (even if occasionally I need a second bite at the cherry – simple thanks to stealth).

With quickness on it takes a couple of seconds max – and let’s not forget we aren’t at some LAN party, we’re dealing with undetermined latency of anything up to a full second.

As a D&D player, I’m quite familiar and comfortable with insta-kills, the difference is that they have hard counters in every single case – maybe it’s unfair to compare a game/system that’s been evolving for 30+ years to this game been out for a few months, but the designers need to pull their heads out of their butt for a moment and act before this becomes Thief Wars 2.

Save my Thief, nerf her

It’s just… Wow… You claim thet heart seeker can hit for 10-15k dmg in couple hits through bunker builds… I am not going to give my comments on that anymore… I have done it already ( do you guys follow the forums or just make new posts on it in anger? )

Let me quote from my post from page 29:

“Common mistake: not knowing your weaknesses and not paying attention to them. ( many parts of the clip )

Again from the same clip, let me introduce you the importance of thoughness. at 4:18 a heavy armor wearing warrior with low thoughness is hit for 2600 damage while he is below 25% hp with heartseeker at 4:18 ( this would crit for 5 to 6k ) while an asuran guardian ( yes, there is an asuran guardian on top of the downed norn warrior ) gets hit by two criticals with heartseeker for only 1756 and 2289 below 25% hp at 5:30.

There is a reason why these montage videos rarely include clips where thieves take on tanky builds 1v1."

The clip I am talking about:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9RvLnC6nSR4

She is clearly condition damage isn’t she.

For me the biggest problem with thieves is the culling issue in wvw and their incredible mobility combined with stealth which gives so little feed back that it is impossible to track or catch the thief with a good play. You need to be a thief yourself and play lottery in order to catch one.

thieves are very balanced atm one goes between almost 10 players vanishing every second.

either remove initiative and add cooldowns or slow the regen so it can work as CD
or add 10 sec penalty atleast when they go out of sthealth that prevents them to restealth. and for stealth build lower that time but give all other classes chance to atleast hit them once in a while

Nate Rush.6970:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg&index=4
This video pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with stealth.
Its from extra creditz…actual logic, great group of folks.

Ok, I’ll bite. Balance in this game will never be around WvW play. WvW, as it stands right now is, should be renamed Zerg VS Zerg. You can’t balance anything that revolves around 50 people button mashing vs another 50 people, at least not in a way that makes everyone have 50 million HP with abilities hitting for 50 damage.

Stealth does have “Counter Play” in this game when you are in s/tPvP. When you stealth, you loose your ability to cap points. A Thiefs defense is conceding any point he is trying to defend. By forcing him to stealth, he is effectively giving up ground. Maybe this isn’t as much “Counter Play” as you would like, but posts and links like these don’t do much other then to try and prove a flawed point you are trying to make.

Is stealth 100% balanced atm? Well, depends on what you are talking about. In s/tPvP it sure is. All you need to do to see this is get away from bunny lv. Thieves almost literally disappear. Does this mean stealth somehow changes at this lv? Nope. What it does show is 1 of 2 things. Either all thieves are horrible players and are unable to play in lvs higher then bunny, or players actually learn how to counter/shut down thieves. In WvW, yes it’s OP, but as has been said over and over, this is largely due to the thief gaining up to an additional 2+ seconds of “stealth” before they become “visible”

can anyone see a pattern here or i am missing something ???

Docherty.8372:

I hate to sound mean, but GW2 designers are inexperienced and unimaginative, and need to go back to fantasy-gaming school and learn the lessons of systems developed over the span of decades and millions of hours of play.

This is a little unfair considering most games’ implementation of stealth also uses clienthax invisibility, it just has an on/off switch and a much longer duration.

Making stealth a short-term combat asset is at least trying to break the mould.

The reason they are OP stems from the completely different fighting system they have while everyone else has the same old system.

Topher.1684:

Ok, I’ll bite. Balance in this game will never be around WvW play. WvW, as it stands right now is, should be renamed Zerg VS Zerg. You can’t balance anything that revolves around 50 people button mashing vs another 50 people, at least not in a way that makes everyone have 50 million HP with abilities hitting for 50 damage.

Stealth does have “Counter Play” in this game when you are in s/tPvP. When you stealth, you loose your ability to cap points. A Thiefs defense is conceding any point he is trying to defend. By forcing him to stealth, he is effectively giving up ground. Maybe this isn’t as much “Counter Play” as you would like, but posts and links like these don’t do much other then to try and prove a flawed point you are trying to make.

Is stealth 100% balanced atm? Well, depends on what you are talking about. In s/tPvP it sure is. All you need to do to see this is get away from bunny lv. Thieves almost literally disappear. Does this mean stealth somehow changes at this lv? Nope. What it does show is 1 of 2 things. Either all thieves are horrible players and are unable to play in lvs higher then bunny, or players actually learn how to counter/shut down thieves. In WvW, yes it’s OP, but as has been said over and over, this is largely due to the thief gaining up to an additional 2+ seconds of “stealth” before they become “visible”

As someone in another thread somewhere mentioned, WvW actually focuses much more on Players vs Player encounters than tPvP. Perhaps the mechanic has some minor drawbacks in a tournament setting, but balancing solely on capture the point 5v5 is so insanely lazy.

Would it really be so difficult to add a dash of counter-play for the fight between players?

Are we submitting to the game being in such an awful state that we have to justify a mechanic that ruins the experience of the fight for the opposing player because Thief stealth simply can’t contribute towards capping/decapping points?

Even if a Thief showed up immediately after stealth finished in WvW, where’s the rewarding counter-play?

Cogbyrn.7283:

Topher.1684:

Ok, I’ll bite. Balance in this game will never be around WvW play. WvW, as it stands right now is, should be renamed Zerg VS Zerg. You can’t balance anything that revolves around 50 people button mashing vs another 50 people, at least not in a way that makes everyone have 50 million HP with abilities hitting for 50 damage.

Stealth does have “Counter Play” in this game when you are in s/tPvP. When you stealth, you loose your ability to cap points. A Thiefs defense is conceding any point he is trying to defend. By forcing him to stealth, he is effectively giving up ground. Maybe this isn’t as much “Counter Play” as you would like, but posts and links like these don’t do much other then to try and prove a flawed point you are trying to make.

Is stealth 100% balanced atm? Well, depends on what you are talking about. In s/tPvP it sure is. All you need to do to see this is get away from bunny lv. Thieves almost literally disappear. Does this mean stealth somehow changes at this lv? Nope. What it does show is 1 of 2 things. Either all thieves are horrible players and are unable to play in lvs higher then bunny, or players actually learn how to counter/shut down thieves. In WvW, yes it’s OP, but as has been said over and over, this is largely due to the thief gaining up to an additional 2+ seconds of “stealth” before they become “visible”

As someone in another thread somewhere mentioned, WvW actually focuses much more on Players vs Player encounters than tPvP. Perhaps the mechanic has some minor drawbacks in a tournament setting, but balancing solely on capture the point 5v5 is so insanely lazy.

Would it really be so difficult to add a dash of counter-play for the fight between players?

Are we submitting to the game being in such an awful state that we have to justify a mechanic that ruins the experience of the fight for the opposing player because Thief stealth simply can’t contribute towards capping/decapping points?

Even if a Thief showed up immediately after stealth finished in WvW, where’s the rewarding counter-play?

No, I would say that taking points in WvWvW is MUCH more important then Spvp, if you go stealth, your effectively giving up your ability to take camps and keeps, mostly camps since I can solo them if I take time to do it and kill each npcs one at a time.

If i’m fighting someone and stealthing, I’m effectively giving up my ability to capture that point, since stealthed opponents arn’t counted against it anymore, I can’t keep a point from being captured either.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Topher.1684:

Ok, I’ll bite. Balance in this game will never be around WvW play. WvW, as it stands right now is, should be renamed Zerg VS Zerg. You can’t balance anything that revolves around 50 people button mashing vs another 50 people, at least not in a way that makes everyone have 50 million HP with abilities hitting for 50 damage.

Stealth does have “Counter Play” in this game when you are in s/tPvP. When you stealth, you loose your ability to cap points. A Thiefs defense is conceding any point he is trying to defend. By forcing him to stealth, he is effectively giving up ground. Maybe this isn’t as much “Counter Play” as you would like, but posts and links like these don’t do much other then to try and prove a flawed point you are trying to make.

Is stealth 100% balanced atm? Well, depends on what you are talking about. In s/tPvP it sure is. All you need to do to see this is get away from bunny lv. Thieves almost literally disappear. Does this mean stealth somehow changes at this lv? Nope. What it does show is 1 of 2 things. Either all thieves are horrible players and are unable to play in lvs higher then bunny, or players actually learn how to counter/shut down thieves. In WvW, yes it’s OP, but as has been said over and over, this is largely due to the thief gaining up to an additional 2+ seconds of “stealth” before they become “visible”

As someone in another thread somewhere mentioned, WvW actually focuses much more on Players vs Player encounters than tPvP. Perhaps the mechanic has some minor drawbacks in a tournament setting, but balancing solely on capture the point 5v5 is so insanely lazy.

Would it really be so difficult to add a dash of counter-play for the fight between players?

Are we submitting to the game being in such an awful state that we have to justify a mechanic that ruins the experience of the fight for the opposing player because Thief stealth simply can’t contribute towards capping/decapping points?

Even if a Thief showed up immediately after stealth finished in WvW, where’s the rewarding counter-play?

Are you implying theres no counter to thief or not ‘rewarding’ ?Wth are you talking about?How about you prevent stealth by avoiding getting struck by C&D?Ever heard of crowd control skills?Not rewarding, thats the lamest complaint I’ve ever heard so far.
I realy can’t understand what exacly is the problem whit it.I don’t see thief more of a threat than any other class and I play a lot of them so I don’t see the problem there.When theres nothing you can do against a Thief then you can complain.

I’m implying that while a Thief is in stealth, even if he/she goes into stealth directly in front of me, everything I do when the Thief is in stealth is a complete guessing game. Even if I guess properly and land hits, they’re blind and I have almost no idea I’m landing hits. If the 1 attack is chaining through, I’m landing hits, but why a Thief would allow more than one to ever land is an insane thought to me.

You can go ahead and put the C&D card back in the deck. Not only is it one of several different triggers for stealth, I’m a melee warrior. You want to know what strong attack broadcast is? Basically everything I do:

Earthshaker
Backbreaker
Staggering Blow
Bull’s Charge
Fierce Blow
Bladetrail

Every single one of those abilities has a longer cast animation than C&D, and for all intents and purposes, pastes a message on your screen saying “Hey, dodge now, because the Warrior is about to maybe land an ability”.

When a Thief is standing still, C&D broadcasts fairly nicely, with a large step back (at least on humans from my quick test). However, while moving, it’s a subtle arm move, and then the cast finishes in .5 seconds. Combined with being able to Steal in the middle of the cast, what I have to do is completely anticipate the ability. The counter for me is to run into melee range, and immediately dodge, hoping that the Thief just uses C&D.

And yes, I’ve heard of CC. I use a Hammer. Have you heard of the Thief trait that blinds on stealth? Are we done wasting time ignoring the discussion at hand with boring mudslinging?

Most Thieves I fight are also terribads. I trash them more times than not, but that doesn’t mean stealth isn’t poorly designed. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t be rewarded if I anticipate a Thief’s position properly. The fact that I still do damage is incredible shallow, because it would be insane to think a Thief couldn’t be damaged while in stealth.

Also, Dae, I’m still waiting for your answer to the enjoyable counter play regarding Thief stealth. If you think it’s enjoyable to force a Thief to stealth so you can cap a point, then I suppose our roles in the conversation will be to argue different perspectives, because we simply disagree.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m implying that while a Thief is in stealth, even if he/she goes into stealth directly in front of me, everything I do when the Thief is in stealth is a complete guessing game. Even if I guess properly and land hits, they’re blind and I have almost no idea I’m landing hits. If the 1 attack is chaining through, I’m landing hits, but why a Thief would allow more than one to ever land is an insane thought to me.

You can go ahead and put the C&D card back in the deck. Not only is it one of several different triggers for stealth, I’m a melee warrior. You want to know what strong attack broadcast is? Basically everything I do:

Earthshaker
Backbreaker
Staggering Blow
Bull’s Charge
Fierce Blow
Bladetrail

Every single one of those abilities has a longer cast animation than C&D, and for all intents and purposes, pastes a message on your screen saying “Hey, dodge now, because the Warrior is about to maybe land an ability”.

When a Thief is standing still, C&D broadcasts fairly nicely, with a large step back (at least on humans from my quick test). However, while moving, it’s a subtle arm move, and then the cast finishes in .5 seconds. Combined with being able to Steal in the middle of the cast, what I have to do is completely anticipate the ability. The counter for me is to run into melee range, and immediately dodge, hoping that the Thief just uses C&D.

And yes, I’ve heard of CC. I use a Hammer. Have you heard of the Thief trait that blinds on stealth? Are we done wasting time ignoring the discussion at hand with boring mudslinging?

Most Thieves I fight are also terribads. I trash them more times than not, but that doesn’t mean stealth isn’t poorly designed. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t be rewarded if I anticipate a Thief’s position properly. The fact that I still do damage is incredible shallow, because it would be insane to think a Thief couldn’t be damaged while in stealth.

Also, Dae, I’m still waiting for your answer to the enjoyable counter play regarding Thief stealth. If you think it’s enjoyable to force a Thief to stealth so you can cap a point, then I suppose our roles in the conversation will be to argue different perspectives, because we simply disagree.

Alright, then I will counter it this way, whats the point in chasing someone who is in stealth, not hurting anyone? (sure they destealth and pebble some poor low level, but to anyone who is 80, they simply cannot even hurt them!)

Daecollo.9578:

Alright, then I will counter it this way, whats the point in chasing someone who is in stealth, not hurting anyone? (sure they destealth and pebble some poor low level, but to anyone who is 80, they simply cannot even hurt them!)

If you’re in a fight with a Thief, and he stealths, you’re still in a fight. Won’t a good Thief use stealth in a fight not just to escape, but to evade/gain an advantage? Isn’t that the mechanic? Shouldn’t I be rewarded if I counter that with proper anticipating? Shouldn’t a Thief be punished for stealthing inappropriately and being countered by my play?

Shouldn’t Thieves be buffed to compensate for a fun stealth mechanic instead of left with the current mechanic as a crutch because their weapon sets are inferior?

When do we get to have an honest conversation about Thief stealth? Is it never?

Cogbyrn.7283:

Daecollo.9578:

Alright, then I will counter it this way, whats the point in chasing someone who is in stealth, not hurting anyone? (sure they destealth and pebble some poor low level, but to anyone who is 80, they simply cannot even hurt them!)

If you’re in a fight with a Thief, and he stealths, you’re still in a fight. Won’t a good Thief use stealth in a fight not just to escape, but to evade/gain an advantage? Isn’t that the mechanic? Shouldn’t I be rewarded if I counter that with proper anticipating? Shouldn’t a Thief be punished for stealthing inappropriately and being countered by my play?

Shouldn’t Thieves be buffed to compensate for a fun stealth mechanic instead of left with the current mechanic as a crutch because their weapon sets are inferior?

When do we get to have an honest conversation about Thief stealth? Is it never?

A thief is punished for stealthing innapropriately, especially against a warrior, one spin attack, even if it grazes me, can almost kill me if i’m full glass cannon, if your autoattack hits me, there goes 1/4 my health!

Thieves have less sustained damage, less burst damage, and 8k less hp and less armor and less boons then a Warrior, there is no way a thief will be able to stand toe to toe to a warrior and win without using dirty tricks like stealthing to not be seen so the thief can trick the warrior into swinging the wrong way.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m implying that while a Thief is in stealth, even if he/she goes into stealth directly in front of me, everything I do when the Thief is in stealth is a complete guessing game. Even if I guess properly and land hits, they’re blind and I have almost no idea I’m landing hits. If the 1 attack is chaining through, I’m landing hits, but why a Thief would allow more than one to ever land is an insane thought to me.

You can go ahead and put the C&D card back in the deck. Not only is it one of several different triggers for stealth, I’m a melee warrior. You want to know what strong attack broadcast is? Basically everything I do:

Earthshaker
Backbreaker
Staggering Blow
Bull’s Charge
Fierce Blow
Bladetrail

Every single one of those abilities has a longer cast animation than C&D, and for all intents and purposes, pastes a message on your screen saying “Hey, dodge now, because the Warrior is about to maybe land an ability”.

When a Thief is standing still, C&D broadcasts fairly nicely, with a large step back (at least on humans from my quick test). However, while moving, it’s a subtle arm move, and then the cast finishes in .5 seconds. Combined with being able to Steal in the middle of the cast, what I have to do is completely anticipate the ability. The counter for me is to run into melee range, and immediately dodge, hoping that the Thief just uses C&D.

And yes, I’ve heard of CC. I use a Hammer. Have you heard of the Thief trait that blinds on stealth? Are we done wasting time ignoring the discussion at hand with boring mudslinging?

Most Thieves I fight are also terribads. I trash them more times than not, but that doesn’t mean stealth isn’t poorly designed. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t be rewarded if I anticipate a Thief’s position properly. The fact that I still do damage is incredible shallow, because it would be insane to think a Thief couldn’t be damaged while in stealth.

Also, Dae, I’m still waiting for your answer to the enjoyable counter play regarding Thief stealth. If you think it’s enjoyable to force a Thief to stealth so you can cap a point, then I suppose our roles in the conversation will be to argue different perspectives, because we simply disagree.

You have no right to complain lol.Specialy as a Warrior.5 seconds invulnerability stun break.Enough said.
You can easily wreck a thief in that period or any proffesion for that matter.I would know since I play a Warrior too.You have tones of Block abilities and offensive ,specialy offensive.A whirl from greatsword is enough to destroy any of those cheesy BS thieves in WvW regardless if they are stealth or not.How is being able to deal damage to stealted thieves shallow rofl.Considering most of them have 900 toughness and 10k hp they go down in a few normal hits .And you know where they are lol.Close to you since they are trying to hit you.
If you think you don’t have any interesting counters to stealth its probaly your proffesion.I sugest you play an elementalist if you find Warrior boring.

NightyNight.1823:

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m implying that while a Thief is in stealth, even if he/she goes into stealth directly in front of me, everything I do when the Thief is in stealth is a complete guessing game. Even if I guess properly and land hits, they’re blind and I have almost no idea I’m landing hits. If the 1 attack is chaining through, I’m landing hits, but why a Thief would allow more than one to ever land is an insane thought to me.

You can go ahead and put the C&D card back in the deck. Not only is it one of several different triggers for stealth, I’m a melee warrior. You want to know what strong attack broadcast is? Basically everything I do:

Earthshaker
Backbreaker
Staggering Blow
Bull’s Charge
Fierce Blow
Bladetrail

Every single one of those abilities has a longer cast animation than C&D, and for all intents and purposes, pastes a message on your screen saying “Hey, dodge now, because the Warrior is about to maybe land an ability”.

When a Thief is standing still, C&D broadcasts fairly nicely, with a large step back (at least on humans from my quick test). However, while moving, it’s a subtle arm move, and then the cast finishes in .5 seconds. Combined with being able to Steal in the middle of the cast, what I have to do is completely anticipate the ability. The counter for me is to run into melee range, and immediately dodge, hoping that the Thief just uses C&D.

And yes, I’ve heard of CC. I use a Hammer. Have you heard of the Thief trait that blinds on stealth? Are we done wasting time ignoring the discussion at hand with boring mudslinging?

Most Thieves I fight are also terribads. I trash them more times than not, but that doesn’t mean stealth isn’t poorly designed. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t be rewarded if I anticipate a Thief’s position properly. The fact that I still do damage is incredible shallow, because it would be insane to think a Thief couldn’t be damaged while in stealth.

Also, Dae, I’m still waiting for your answer to the enjoyable counter play regarding Thief stealth. If you think it’s enjoyable to force a Thief to stealth so you can cap a point, then I suppose our roles in the conversation will be to argue different perspectives, because we simply disagree.

You have no right to complain lol.Specialy as a Warrior.5 seconds invulnerability stun break.Enough said.
You can easily wreck a thief in that period or any proffesion for that matter.I would know since I play a Warrior too.You have tones of Block abilities and offensive ,specialy offensive.A whirl from greatsword is enough to destroy any of those cheesy BS thieves in WvW regardless if they are stealth or not.How is being able to deal damage to stealted thieves shallow rofl.Considering most of them have 900 toughness and 10k hp they go down in a few normal hits .And you know where they are lol.Close to you since they are trying to hit you.
If you think you don’t have any interesting counters to stealth its probaly your proffesion.I sugest you play an elementalist if you find Warrior boring.

As a player of both an 80 thief and warrior, I usually destroy thieves by using hammer, it has such a huge aoe range on the f1 ability and if I hit with it, I know because I will lose adrenaline, even if the thief is stealthed, he is stunned, meaning he can’t move from that area, thats when I either switch to greatsword and 100b the area hes stunned or use my hammers ‘5’ ability to knock down whoever I stunned and interrupted from F1, that usually destealths the thief seeing as he was stealthed for too long, its all done in a matter of seconds, and after that he usually destealths, thats when I whirl into him and finish him.

If I miss Hammers F1, it has a short CD (10 seconds.) and I know I missed because I didn’t lose adrenaline, so I know the thief is not there and must be behind me, but i’ve limited his hiding places by almost half.

Cogbyrn.7283:

If you’re in a fight with a Thief, and he stealths, you’re still in a fight. Won’t a good Thief use stealth in a fight not just to escape, but to evade/gain an advantage? Isn’t that the mechanic?

You are so right! I’m on board. Go on…

Cogbyrn.7283:

Shouldn’t I be rewarded if I counter that with proper anticipating? Shouldn’t a Thief be punished for stealthing inappropriately and being countered by my play?

Wait, wut? So dodging his C&D and having him blow half of his initiative isn’t countering with proper anticipation? Maybe you mean Shadow Refuge? But isn’t knocking/pulling the thief out with one of the many abilities that can do just that pretty f-ing rewarding?

I support crits flashing on stealthed targets. I support fixing culling. Hell, I even support a reduction on the time one can stay stealthed. Quit trying to make it out like you need a way around everything. If C&D lands on you, guess what, it’s your fault. If you didn’t interrupt the long cast time for the heal stealth, it’s your fault. If you didn’t use the abilities inherently built into the game to punt them out of their SR, it’s your fault.

Counter what puts them into stealth, not stealth itself.

If you’re looking for a counter-play against thief stealth, don’t look too hard o.O. Every class has it, and it’s called “Dodge”. If you dodge 2 DnD, you pretty much depleted the thief’s basic initiative store. Even if they toss shadow’s refuge for a reset, you can still get the upper hand again by taking it slow and not panicking.

(By the way, video game design classes do NOT teach you these specific things like stealth mechanics LOL. They only teach you basics like, “Oh, balance the game by… that’s up to you to figure out.”)

So from a design perspective, there’s a TON of factors in stealth that balances it out BUT they’re not that obvious to your average players. That’s the tricky part because for great players who know the fight style, thieves are pretty easy to beat in 1v1.

Here’s some explanations:
If a thief is going for stealth, most of the times they will need a Dagger equiped to their offhand. This limits their main to Sword, Pistol, or Dagger. Since thieves do not have cooldowns and use initiative, this is a MAJOR disadvantage to them if they switch weapons out mid-battle with low initiative. Now, if they do switch weapons out, they might not be able to stealth since many of their alternate weapons is the shortbow to cover their long distance attacks.
The initiative system is actually a check on stealth. You can’t stealth so often, and missing your CnD leaves you pretty defenseless. You COULD blow a utility and stealth, but that means you have another cooldown while the great player you’re fighting can prepare for the next attack.
Also, thieves have a 3s reveal buff. This makes it much easier to read their attack pattern and plan a counter-attack. This is key to countering thieves. Know their timing and attack patterns because they are quite restrained in those.

I can go on and on, with almost each class with counters (I’m still working on Necro, Engi, and Ranger though).
But clearly there’s a skill gap if all the complaints are from WvW, and not tPvP where things are balanced.
Stealth isn’t a easy thing to counter if you’re not experienced, but if you are, then you’ll enjoy beating it.

I don’t mean to say L2P, but for people who complain about it to reflect on themselves and take a moment.

nerf backstab builds, show some love for sword builds. Oh, and fix flanking strike.

kenshinakh.3672:

I can go on and on, with almost each class with counters (I’m still working on Necro, Engi, and Ranger though).

The poster in question wants to be “rewarded” for proper “anticipation” of the stealth. In that case, any channeled ability will do SPLENDIDLY, especially ranger who can rapid-fire over half our life in one channel, and put a crown of birds over our heads for a majority of our stealth’s duration, each giving amazing visual cues to our whereabouts.

And yes, people, channeled skills do continue to do damage in stealth. Two-fold counter, you’re welcome.

Laika.8795:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If you’re in a fight with a Thief, and he stealths, you’re still in a fight. Won’t a good Thief use stealth in a fight not just to escape, but to evade/gain an advantage? Isn’t that the mechanic?

You are so right! I’m on board. Go on…

Cogbyrn.7283:

Shouldn’t I be rewarded if I counter that with proper anticipating? Shouldn’t a Thief be punished for stealthing inappropriately and being countered by my play?

Wait, wut? So dodging his C&D and having him blow half of his initiative isn’t countering with proper anticipation? Maybe you mean Shadow Refuge? But isn’t knocking/pulling the thief out with one of the many abilities that can do just that pretty f-ing rewarding?

I support crits flashing on stealthed targets. I support fixing culling. Hell, I even support a reduction on the time one can stay stealthed. Quit trying to make it out like you need a way around everything. If C&D lands on you, guess what, it’s your fault. If you didn’t interrupt the long cast time for the heal stealth, it’s your fault. If you didn’t use the abilities inherently built into the game to punt them out of their SR, it’s your fault.

Counter what puts them into stealth, not stealth itself.

Almost every time I see Shadow Refuge, I Earthshaker right on top of it. Many times, I’ll be blinded mid-animation because Stealth ticks and the Thief has the trait that blinds on Stealth. Then, ES misses, and I’m blinded again in a follow-up tick.

I get that countering C&D with a pre-emptive dodge is anticipating for reward. However, why is everything against a Thief a completely anticipatory action? Does it have to be such that if I guess incorrectly, I just put myself at a large disadvantage? If that’s the case, why don’t all classes get similar mechanics?

Why is it that a Thief flickering upon taking direct damage while in stealth would be so bad? I don’t recall seeing any rational arguments against it, just dodges around the issue. Instead of aggressively defending it with “Well why do you need it? A thief going into stealth is clearly your fault for doing something wrong”, just answer the question.

EDIT – @Dae: I’m still waiting for you to just answer the question.

Also, if you ES onto a location and lose adrenaline, you know the Thief is somewhere in the AoE. The 100B cone could cover where the Thief is, or it could completely whiff. The Hammer 5 has such a tiny little impact zone that you’d have to just get lucky to land it. Hammer 4 is a better option for continuing the CC, but then you aren’t sure if that even hits (4’s AoE is smaller than F1’s). Even if you were, you wouldn’t be sure which direction the Thief was knocked towards.

If the ES misses, it could mean the Thief just dodged it, so you’ve narrowed your range of possibilities for the Thief’s location to “anywhere around me”, in practice. Also, if you happened to be blinded by the stealth (trait), you have to burn time on a Hammer 1.

I regularly kill Thieves on my Hammer. Thieves probably regularly kill Hammer Warriors. What’s your point about Stealth, again?

Can you please answer the question, maybe? You’ve spent this much time engaging my posts personally that I don’t see why it’d be such drastic for me to ask you address one simple question.

100b on the shadow refuge area .You don’t get a better target than a thief trying to shadow refuge.
3 seconds stealth , Thats what you’re whining about?
Easy counterable too.But nooooo , you wanna turn him visible too in that period.Do you even hear how ridiculous you sound?
Its as if thief can perma stealth .
Culling is the only thing that needs a fixing.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Almost every time I see Shadow Refuge, I Earthshaker right on top of it. Many times, I’ll be blinded mid-animation because Stealth ticks and the Thief has the trait that blinds on Stealth. Then, ES misses, and I’m blinded again in a follow-up tick.

Earthshaker is a stun, and does nothing against Shadow Refuge. If you used Staggering Blow, you will knock the thief OUT of the SR, triggering the trip-wire and causing a 3 second revealed debuff on the thief. This is the absolute downfall of SR, and hardly anyone tries to counter it. And don’t try and use Cloaked in Shadow as a way out, not everyone uses it and all you need to do is clear the blind BEFORE you cast.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I get that countering C&D with a pre-emptive dodge is anticipating for reward. However, why is everything against a Thief a completely anticipatory action? Does it have to be such that if I guess incorrectly, I just put myself at a large disadvantage? If that’s the case, why don’t all classes get similar mechanics?

How are you putting yourself at a large disadvantage? And what are you guessing? God forbid you have to try and think when fighting a thief. Most dagger offhand thief fights will consist of autoattacks (most thief weapon abilities are utility), with blatant attempts to try and enter stealth via C&D. Furthermore, dodge just one, and it is HE that is at a large disadvantage. Think that is a pretty fair trade-off. Dodge two, and he’s almost completely depleted.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Why is it that a Thief flickering upon taking direct damage while in stealth would be so bad? I don’t recall seeing any rational arguments against it, just dodges around the issue. Instead of aggressively defending it with “Well why do you need it? A thief going into stealth is clearly your fault for doing something wrong”, just answer the question.

At what point in my agreeing that crits should flicker on damage in stealth did you twist that to mean the exact opposite? All ignorance aside, people would still complain about stealth if this was implemented, so the point is rather moot.

Daecollo.9578:

Alright, then I will counter it this way, whats the point in chasing someone who is in stealth, not hurting anyone?

This isn’t always the case. Sorry to say it, but to some people, classes, or other cannon builds, a cloaked thief is still plenty of dps to take them down.

Bottom line it doesn’t matter if 5-10-100-2000 people say it’s fun and balanced to play a stealth thief in this game. If even 10% the number are saying how not fun it is, the design was poorly implemented.
I personally don’t give a kitten if a thief can or cannot survive x,y,z while killing 1,2,3. What I care about is the fact that swinging wildly into the air trying to hit the invisible man is simply not fun to do.
From experience its fun as hell to play a stealth-troll. Trying to kill one on the other hand is really something you just pass on. And that is the defense most are trying to make….which is even more sad.
People’s idea of defending a working mechanic is you should just ignore the cloaked thief as he doesn’t do too much damage. Does that sound right?
Is it so hard to see how incredibly wrong that statement is?

Nate Rush.6970:

Daecollo.9578:

Alright, then I will counter it this way, whats the point in chasing someone who is in stealth, not hurting anyone?

This isn’t always the case. Sorry to say it, but to some people, classes, or other cannon builds, a cloaked thief is still plenty of dps to take them down.

Bottom line it doesn’t matter if 5-10-100-2000 people say fun and balanced to play a stealth thief in this game. If the same number is saying how not fun it is, the design was poorly implemented.
I personally don’t give a kitten if a thief can or cannot survive x,y,z while killing 1,2,3. What I care about is the fact that swinging wildly into the air trying to hit the invisible man is simply not fun to do.
From experience its fun as hell to play a stealth-troll, trying to kill one on the other hand is really something you just pass on the opportunity. And that is the defense most are trying to make….which is even more sad.
People’s idea of defending a working mechanic is you should just ignore the cloaked thief as he doesn’t do too much damage. Does that sound right?
Is it so hard to see how incredibly wrong that statement is?

I will awnser you this truthfully and honestly.
People “want to win.” and thats why you lose.

A thief does not have the upfront dps to kill anything, they are however very good at getting away from pretty much anything, the reason many lose is because they believe that they “must” chase the thief down and win.

For example, fighting a P/D thief, has the idea ever occured to you to simply ignore him, in a zerg, he would just get destroyed, 1v1 if you stay and fight him, he will slowly wittle you down and destroy you, so before the fight even starts, and he attacks you, why fight back? you can simply walk away and avoid him, or walk towards an objective you took, if he follows you… LOL the NPCs will attack him, and you win.

The reason you lose is you let him pick the location, you let him start the fight, you let him use the area he knows he can run from, if you run from him, hes not going to beat you, P/D has no high upfront damage, they must be constantly melee attacking you with C/D to hurt you, if you run with swiftness, that is impossible.

Use your brain, this isn’t a 1v1 game.

As long as you retain your “THIS IS BROKEN I CAN’T EVER WIN WHAT DO I DO WHAT DO I DO, ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO CATCH THE THIEF, I MUST FIGHT HIM I MUST FIGHT HIM!” you will lose, you let him pick the area, your following him to where he wants you to go, your letting him pick the fight… now put yourself in his mind, he realizes your running away, and theres nothing he can do, because if he follows you to try and kill you, he will have to wittle you down in an area of your choosing AND waste initiative and precious skills like shadowstep and shortbow 5 to chase you, rather then his choosing, your in turn making the thief make a choice, follow you into your hell or stay in his, this gives you the advantage, because now your picking the area, and it can have more of your allies or even better, npcs, because npcs don’t give a **** about stealth, they never did.

o\ (<—That’s a facepalm btw.)

I just finished typing out why it is such a terrible defensive argument to simply say ignore him, in fact you quoted me saying it. Yet, you write a longer post on why you should just ignore him.
WHAT AREN’T YOU GETTTING?

I never said I personally HAVE to kill the thief. Infact, if you dig for it, I say I often AM the one who just continues running as they aren’t worth my time. That being said, you can’t tell me that a game mechanic is a good one if the targets its being used on defense is ignorance.

Laika, you aren’t the only other person in the discussion, so taking the last bit so personally is a little extreme. In fact, you’re the only person who has directly addressed it, and I appreciate that much openness at least.

Also, ignoring Cloaked in Shadow because “not everyone uses it” is insane. You don’t want to account for all of the variables when discussing counters and balance? With a Hammer, you cannot knock anyone out of Shadow Refuge when they have Cloaked in Shadow. Clearing blind takes .5 seconds, Staggering blow takes .75 seconds, and the Stealth application proc what, every second?

Which, honestly, is fine. A trait that counters melee aggression in Shadow Refuge isn’t necessarily a problem, but people trying to pawn off a particular counter to Shadow Refuge ignorant of the trait is, in fact, a problem.

And there’s no reason to get indignant about the whole situation. If I wanted, I could say “God forbid you have to think when fighting a Warrior instead of simply reacting to the obvious visual cues”, but that doesn’t help the discussion along. All it does is make you look like the victim in some vain attempt to “win”.

Why can’t we just discuss mechanics?

Maybe a culling fix, or perhaps some patch that applies specifically to stealth re-rendering, would alleviate a lot of the problem. I just think it would be fun for both the Thief and the opponent. Thieves have to be wary when they make good their escape, and opponents have to make educated guesses as to where the Thief ended up.

I say this because I want to play my Thief, but have absolutely no desire because the Stealth mechanic isn’t fun to me. It just feels like a cop out instead of a strategic advantage that can be countered. I played several hours of Assassin in Forge, and if you took a tick of DoT damage, or were hit in any way by anything while you were in stealth, you are popped out. It was an extreme version of dealing with Stealth, and a direct translation wouldn’t necessarily carry over to GW2 because Forge stealth is on a 3 second cooldown and lasts until you are popped out or choose to pop out, but it felt amazing when I was required to use LoS and actual escape maneuvers to evade the enemy. Heck, if you were shot with an arrow before you went stealth, your location would be highlighted by arrows floating around in the air for a few seconds.

I think it could be a lot more fun and interesting than it currently is, and I’m curious to see why people think flickering (even just on crit, that’s fine) upon taking direct damage only would be so insanely detrimental to the Thief stealth experience?

Nate Rush.6970:

Bottom line it doesn’t matter if 5-10-100-2000 people say it’s fun and balanced to play a stealth thief in this game. If even 10% the number are saying how not fun it is, the design was poorly implemented.

These are two very different things. Fighting stealth is balanced, but it isn’t (and likely won’t ever be) fun. It is akin to sniper balance in FPS’, ultimately you can create a balanced system but low-feedback combat (being killed without knowing who did it or how) is always going to be un-fun. The only real way to allow being ambushed to be “fun” is to sufficiently degrade the advantage of dictating the terms of an engagement to the point where ambush play doesn’t really exist anymore.

Yet the argument consistently brought up is that stealth is imbalanced, not that it isn’t fun to fight against.

I think that is my point exactly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg&index=4
I’ll just keep linking this till the kiddies get it.

And with that edit,- I see what you were trying to say. From there, I can completely disagree with you. Apposed to the counter-play being, “he has stealth, he has an advantage I can do nothing about.” How hard would it to be to implement, “he has stealth, I have things that counter stealth, now we have a meta-game.”?

Is it right to say that because they have an ambush, it is and always will be un-fun to play against? No, its poor design, there are countless ways to add to the game and henceforth the choices of the gamer that could make stealth, and fighting against stealth a welcomed part of the game. As it sits, in its basic form it is nothing better than paper to rocks without scissors to stop.

Snipers and Stealthers are completely different.

The video you linked was all about snipers right?

I think i’d rather get killed by a thief, then safely from 1500 range.

@Dae: Do you not see how being forced to just run back to a camp of NPCs every time you encounter a P/D Thief is bad design? You aren’t having fun because you’re just running away, the P/D Thief isn’t having fun because he can’t fight you with NPCs around. If you try to fight the Thief, odds are you aren’t having fun because he whittles you down until you die.

So the Thief’s personal hell is a little area of WvW where your NPCs exist. Your personal hell is the rest of the map. What beautiful and engaging counter play mechanics.

What if they removed C&D and replaced it with something that lets you shadowstep to an opponent’s back? What would have to change to make sure Thieves were appropriately compensated? I’m guessing some damage would have to go up, condition or otherwise. It just occurred to me that having the ability to stealth on a weapon attack creates more problems than solutions.

Daecollo.9578:

Snipers and Stealthers are completely different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_rXq2LYg0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg&index=4

The video you linked was all about snipers right?

I think i’d rather get killed by a thief, then safely from 1500 range.

o\

Do you ever watch something all the way through, or do you consistently read/watch things for the first piece of dirt you can make an uneducated response to? Just curious.

Daecollo.9578:

The video you linked was all about snipers right?

Not really, the main point was that every ability should be engaging for both the user of that ability and whoever is trying to counter it.

You can focus all day on the things that make sniping and stealth attacks different, but their commonality is important: they’re both (or at least have the capability to be) mechanically balanced systems that players still find un-fun because, psychologically, low-feedback deaths aren’t fun. FPS tried to solve this issue with kill cams, but that sort of mechanical fix wouldn’t really be a good solution to trying to make stealth more fun to fight.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Dae: Do you not see how being forced to just run back to a camp of NPCs every time you encounter a P/D Thief is bad design? You aren’t having fun because you’re just running away, the P/D Thief isn’t having fun because he can’t fight you with NPCs around. If you try to fight the Thief, odds are you aren’t having fun because he whittles you down until you die.

So the Thief’s personal hell is a little area of WvW where your NPCs exist. Your personal hell is the rest of the map. What beautiful and engaging counter play mechanics.

What if they removed C&D and replaced it with something that lets you shadowstep to an opponent’s back? What would have to change to make sure Thieves were appropriately compensated? I’m guessing some damage would have to go up, condition or otherwise. It just occurred to me that having the ability to stealth on a weapon attack creates more problems than solutions.

Well, then you would have to change the sneak attack itself to work after you did such a shadow step, and then give thieves things like “protection” when they use this shadow step, and then add things like regeneration and more healing abilities, and then give thieves more access to knock downs and other things, so they can bunker down like every other class.

Also, you should also give them some group buffs too, besides the trash they have now.

You would also have to give them access to plenty of condition removal as well.

Then again, you might as well just remove the thief class and go D/D Elementalist, because that is what that is.

The thieve little area where he attacks you is his comfortable zone, if you make him leave it, he is forced to relearn the area your fighting, and learn the perils of what your dragging him into.

I would give thieves anything they asked for if they made fighting stealth an engaging experience.

Nate Rush.6970:

I would give thieves anything they asked for if they made fighting stealth an engaging experience.

The ability to not de-stealth when you hit your opponent, but if your hurt it destealths you.

Daecollo.9578:

Snipers and Stealthers are completely different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_rXq2LYg0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

The video you linked was all about snipers right?

I think i’d rather get killed by a thief, then safely from 1500 range.

Then nerf Kill Shot’s multi-second preparation damage requiring full adrenaline on glass cannons. I honestly don’t care. If sniping with Kill Shot is unfun, regardless of the opportunity the ability provides for blocking/absorbing/reflecting/dodging the shot, then fix it.

But you’re dodging the issue of Stealth not being fun once again.

Also, give Thieves all of the imbalanced things you spewed out just to try to avoid actually discussing the issue. That’s fine. They’d still be far more fun to fight.

I’d actually like to see them test out a mechanic to “reveal” stealthed characters as translucent models similar to how allied stealthed characters are seen. Put it on some utility skills. It’d only do that though, the thief would retain all stealth benefits and be untargetable.

But the main reason I’d like to see it is so I can watch people who don’t know how to aim attacks without a locked tab target shoot and stab the ground over and over.

The problem is that even a mechanic like this won’t “solve” the major problems people have with thieves because, in actuality, most of them aren’t related to stealth. Thief survivability is mostly mobility-based, and thieves’ ability to destroy people in 2-3 seconds is, again, not really based in stealth as much as mobility and frontloaded burst.

Daecollo.9578:

Nate Rush.6970:

I would give thieves anything they asked for if they made fighting stealth an engaging experience.

The ability to not de-stealth when you hit your opponent, but if your hurt it destealths you.

I would take that in 0 heartbeats. I wouldn’t even have to debate the pros/cons with myself, my acceptance would be so incredibly fast.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Daecollo.9578:

Snipers and Stealthers are completely different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_rXq2LYg0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

The video you linked was all about snipers right?

I think i’d rather get killed by a thief, then safely from 1500 range.

Then nerf Kill Shot’s multi-second preparation damage requiring full adrenaline on glass cannons. I honestly don’t care. If sniping with Kill Shot is unfun, regardless of the opportunity the ability provides for blocking/absorbing/reflecting/dodging the shot, then fix it.

But you’re dodging the issue of Stealth not being fun once again.

Also, give Thieves all of the imbalanced things you spewed out just to try to avoid actually discussing the issue. That’s fine. They’d still be far more fun to fight.

You act like full adrenaline is the hardest thing ever, honestly, with the new heal they added and precision signet and the shout, I can refill the bar 4 times and use kill shot back to back every time its up.

Exactly, I thought it would be really clever to give the ranger and really the ranger alone a couple stealth counters, like ability to track them, or their pet hunts them down….something. It would in very least close the “stealth loop” of rock-paper-scissors.
(while simultaneously buffing the under-used ranger win/win)

Nate Rush.6970:

Bottom line it doesn’t matter if 5-10-100-2000 people say it’s fun and balanced to play a stealth thief in this game. If even 10% the number are saying how not fun it is, the design was poorly implemented.
I personally don’t give a kitten if a thief can or cannot survive x,y,z while killing 1,2,3. What I care about is the fact that swinging wildly into the air trying to hit the invisible man is simply not fun to do.
From experience its fun as hell to play a stealth-troll. Trying to kill one on the other hand is really something you just pass on. And that is the defense most are trying to make….which is even more sad.
People’s idea of defending a working mechanic is you should just ignore the cloaked thief as he doesn’t do too much damage. Does that sound right?
Is it so hard to see how incredibly wrong that statement is?

Well, 10% isn’t a very large number, and I’m sure I would be able to find 10% of any population that doesn’t like one thing or another. Does that mean everything ever created is horribly implemented? If you are trying to created/implement something and your target is such that you need less then 10% of your customers to no like something for it to be a success, then I’m sorry to say you will live a very bitter life.

I don’t like facing Mesmers and Bunker Guards/Eles. I’m sure at least 10% of the PvP population don’t like facing one of those classes too. Does that mean they were all horribly implemented? I’d wager that at least 10% of the GW2 population don’t like the smilingly endless HP of a lifesteal Necro. Horribly implemented?

As for the ignore the thief statement. If I’m correct, that was against P/D thieves, and it’s an accurate statement. The longer you try and kill those kinds of thieves, the greater the chance he will end up killing you. Don’t ignore the GC BS thieves, and that will almost certainly kill you. Instead, dodge their CnD (not hard to do once you learn the timing) and spank them hard as they panic trying to restealth.

For the record, I’m currently playing Ele in PvP, and dodging CnD isn’t hard at all. Thief got put on hold (I get bored playing the same class for too long, so it’s on the bench with my Guardian).

Nate Rush.6970:

Exactly, I thought it would be really clever to give the ranger and really the ranger alone a couple stealth counters, like ability to track them, or their pet hunts them down….something. It would in very least close the “stealth loop” of rock-paper-scissors.
(while simultaneously buffing the under-used ranger win/win)

Then necromancers should be given the ability to corrupt the rangers pet and fully take control of it, using it on the ranger to kill him.

Thieves should beable to steal warriors weapon and leave him helpless as the thief beats on him with it.

Guardians should beable to encase the necromancer in holy fire and leave him stunned for 10 seconds so he can’t do anything.

Mesmers should beable to trick the guardian and make all of his damage against him against his clones instead.

Warriors should be able to ignore the elementalists stuff because its for sissys and stomp em.

Elementalist should beable to light mesmers on fire and burn all there cloths off, they are so ashamed they have to stand there and try to cover themselves!

Nice Rock Paper Scissor balance, right?

Daecollo.9578:

Nate Rush.6970:

Exactly, I thought it would be really clever to give the ranger and really the ranger alone a couple stealth counters, like ability to track them, or their pet hunts them down….something. It would in very least close the “stealth loop” of rock-paper-scissors.
(while simultaneously buffing the under-used ranger win/win)

Then necromancers should be given the ability to corrupt the rangers pet and fully take control of it, using it on the ranger to kill him.

This is exactly the type of person trying so adamantly to defend Thieves irrationally, and it’s exactly the problem with trying to have any sort of positive discussion on the topic.

You still haven’t answered my question, Dae.

Daecollo.9578:

Nate Rush.6970:

Exactly, I thought it would be really clever to give the ranger and really the ranger alone a couple stealth counters, like ability to track them, or their pet hunts them down….something. It would in very least close the “stealth loop” of rock-paper-scissors.
(while simultaneously buffing the under-used ranger win/win)

Then necromancers should be given the ability to corrupt the rangers pet and fully take control of it, using it on the ranger to kill him.

Thieves should beable to steal warriors weapon and leave him helpless as the thief beats on him with it.

Guardians should beable to encase the necromancer in holy fire and leave him stunned for 10 seconds so he can’t do anything.

Mesmers should beable to trick the guardian and make all of his damage against him against his clones instead.

Warriors should be able to ignore the elementalists stuff because its for sissys and stomp em.

Nice balance, right?

Those are all drastic examples because your definition of a “stealth counter” is pretty drastic. There is a pretty wide range of things that could be done to create a mechanical stealth counter that would help the stealth fighting meta instead of weakening it. “Stealth counter” means so many things to different people and most of the ideas are straight-up bad, but that doesn’t mean all mechanical counters are unreasonable.

That’s fine that’s fair. It would be a lot more engaging than again, swinging wildly into the air hoping I am getting lucky. (AGAIN NOT THAT I DO THIS, GET IT THROUGH SKULL)

I would accept a balanced mechanical stealth counter in the same sense that I accepted more professions getting a 25 % runspeed signet. The good ones don’t need it, and the bad ones will be weaker at actually fighting for having taken it. If everyone gets a utility skill that reveals one use of stealth (or a short duration), it’ll be easier for good thieves to get kills than it is now, and harder for bad thieves, there is really no downside here unless you’re a bad thief.

Why are we bringing up kill shot when we’re talking about the thief? Is kill shot imbalanced? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, that has absolutely no bearing on whether the thief is unbalanced or not.

In addition, coming up with numbers out of nowhere is always going to be pure conjecture. That’s another stupid thing. If that’s “exactly what you meant perfectly and simply”, perhaps you have absolutely no clue about what you’re talking about.

We get that the strategy to use against a P/D Thief is just running away. We’re saying that isn’t fun and interesting design.

Im in blacktide you said your name (Nnaqu) and i cant PM you., you just waste my time and then i spend for 7 days here on this server! Lol this issue will never end unless arena net do something., as i said this game have 3 different kind of player 1. Weak 2. Normal 3. Insane., what if arena net build 3 another server so that this game will be balance., playing the game that is not your level make imbalance to you., maybe this be a good idea again