Guild Wars 2

Collin Jones.9781:

Cheesiest class in the game for PvP.

Not 30 minutes ago i chased a Thief for 10-15 mins (ima Guard). catching her skirmishing over and over again. I’d win the skirmishes, shed smoke bomb, use her safe house or whatever these abilities are. She had about 3-5 ways to go into stealth or displace herself without a short bow. Basicly pressing her, “I dont lose ever” buttons and walking away, stalling for her HP to regen or her heal to come back up.

I don’t think Thieves should regen while stealthed. It’s being abused. Or the timer for being in combat shouldnt run out while in stealth because them maintaining stealth is for a combat reason.

-Note, at any point in time she could stall like this and WP away from a bad engagement. No skill required.

How is this fun or fair for the opposition? The ammount of skill it takes to press your invisibility button is quite low, while you could argue theres not much you can do to ensure a kill on a good thief.

Stealth is super strong in every MMO it comes out with. The ability to pick and chose who and when you fight, and also when you pull out of combat is incredibly powerful. Where is the balance? This is next gen gaming right? Why is this still an issue? Deminishing returns on stealth, slow their movespeed significantly, nerf the ammount of ways they can aquire it.

Or maybe melees should have a way to see stealth or atleast get a hint at which way shes going briefly. Going invisible in plain sight 2 inches infront of a guy hammering on you is pretty rediculous.

Currently, I have to use my gap closers once she on the map again. Then she uses hers to get away and stall for her cooldowns to run even more. How fun. Good job designing this. This must be intended, cause even in theorycrafting you could tell this was the end result.

I did get her down though, cause she engaged again for no real reason. Thats another issue. For “balance” purposes, you should be able to outplay your opponent OR Capitalize on their mistakes.

Theres no way for me to outplay someone who is this elusive. I have to wait for her to slip up (a smart thief wouldnt) and THEN i get to have a chance. Thats dumb. This class should require finess not just button mashing to spam invis when real competition comes along.

Anyway, once downed guess what she did. She stealthed away again. Didn’t reappear until she was healed about 90-95%, I judges interventioned over, too late, she disapeared. Didn’t catch her the last time, had no idea where she went. I think she WP’d away. This was an issue that they said they would fix back in the freaking Beta. Do you all play Thieves? wtf.

After catching this stupid person who cant fight or pvp worth a kitten about 8 times or more, she gets away. Thanks. I deserved it I guess right? For daring to fight a Thief at any particular skill level?

Cheesiest class in the game for PvP

Im never going to pvp in any form ever again. Your game is good. Your PvP sucks. Just because i don’t like being the pansy who stabs people in the back, i don’t get a fair chance at a fight. Thanks for punishing me

All you want is the guaranteed kill. Which it would be if she didn’t have stealth. You couldn’t walk up go swish swish and she falls over and it annoyed you. Terrible post. Your challenge is to figure it out without just expecting to waft your sword around and win all the time. And even if there is no possible way for you to win this 1v1, that’s fine… game isn’t balanced 1v1 congrats on meeting the rock to your scissors, now go group up and fight another group. There are builds a thief can’t kill either. It’s how the game works.

IMHO, the biggest complaint people have against stealth is the that thieves appear to be able to go permanent invisibility and there <strong>appears</strong> to be no counter for it. Sya what you may about eles at least you can target them for CCs unlike thieves.

That being said, I think stealth needs to be calibrated and I have a few ideas. These are just my friendly opinions:

1) Increased reveal time to 4 or 5s. I think this could work but it should be tested before rolling out.
2) Revealed debuff refreshes when attacked by foe. I’m basing this off the assumption that thieves are skilled enough to run away. That being said I am guessing ranged weapons could undo this quite quickly.
3) Stealth breaks on bleed/burn. Not a very popular one I think but you have to admit it’s weird that I can’t see an invisible man on fire or leaving a trail of blood

Another thing I believe should be removed is execution while in stealth. I reserve a special hatred in my heart for this. Possibly because that means I cannot stop a thief from executing a team mate. Also, perhaps only thieves can do this and quite often too. Personally, I think executions should count as an attack.

Anyways, just my opinion.

Scorael.8952:

IMHO, the biggest complaint people have against stealth is the that thieves appear to be able to go permanent invisibility and there <strong>appears</strong> to be no counter for it. Sya what you may about eles at least you can target them for CCs unlike thieves.

That being said, I think stealth needs to be calibrated and I have a few ideas. These are just my friendly opinions:

1) Increased reveal time to 4 or 5s. I think this could work but it should be tested before rolling out.
2) Revealed debuff refreshes when attacked by foe. I’m basing this off the assumption that thieves are skilled enough to run away. That being said I am guessing ranged weapons could undo this quite quickly.
3) Stealth breaks on bleed/burn. Not a very popular one I think but you have to admit it’s weird that I can’t see an invisible man on fire or leaving a trail of blood

Another thing I believe should be removed is execution while in stealth. I reserve a special hatred in my heart for this. Possibly because that means I cannot stop a thief from executing a team mate. Also, perhaps only thieves can do this and quite often too. Personally, I think executions should count as an attack.

Anyways, just my opinion.

The counter to it is he can’t do anything while perma-stealthed, and to perma-stealth you have to sacrifice almost all your damage.

As a necromancer player, I would Lul if thieves got taken out of stealth by damage, stealth would just become the most useless ability in the game and thieves would need massive buffs in survivable and damage to compensate.

I would laugh even more if it broke on bleed and burn, because then they couldn’t even stealth at all, or do anything to my necromancer, MARKS FTW!

Collin Jones.9781:

1 – No bow, stated that.
2 -

Your saying it costs half your pool like its a big deal

3 -Swinging wildly hoping to hit an invisible person. Good strat. I don’t doubt it’s validity, just rediculous what your resorted to. What I want is a mechanic for people who say, got knocked down while the person is in stealth or maybe they are crippled and are not in immediate melee range to capitalize on your strategy. Some signal to keep an eye open for.

4 -

1) Didn’t read that part sry, what weapon WAS she wielding then? I’d assume either P/D or she has traited “run 50% faster while stealthed”

2) How much dmg did she actually do to you? From what I read, it seems like she is traited into regaining initiatives and into stealthing (when she was downed, she’d throw a smokescreen which lasts a second or 2 again). Traiting into these things means she has to take out her damage output.

But yeah, it is a big deal. We don’t have cooldowns, but all our weapon skills derive from the same pool. If you’re not sparse with it, you’d end up only being able to use your auto-attack for a period of time.

3) Seriously, when in melee range, this is a great strategy and not ridiculous. How often I killed a thief just by guessing where he is. As for ranged locating, guess you have a point there. Although I’d hate being found when I am using my stealth to make ppl BELIEVE I went a certain way, while I just was luring them away from the spot I want to get to …

4) I think I already said what she used in point two, stealth on downed. It’s a trait. Since a recent update you can shadowstep and stay in stealth (wasn’t like this in the early few months). But how she got to 95% before you saw her is still a mystery to me. The stealth on downed doesn’t last long, and the second stealth’s cooldown wouldn’t be up yet.

Scorael.8952:

2) Revealed debuff refreshes when attacked by foe. I’m basing this off the assumption that thieves are skilled enough to run away. That being said I am guessing ranged weapons could undo this quite quickly.

How would this be fair in Wv3?

Collin Jones.9781:

Cheesiest class in the game for PvP.

Not 30 minutes ago i chased a Thief for 10-15 mins (ima Guard). catching her skirmishing over and over again. I’d win the skirmishes, shed smoke bomb, use her safe house or whatever these abilities are. She had about 3-5 ways to go into stealth or displace herself without a short bow. Basicly pressing her, “I dont lose ever” buttons and walking away, stalling for her HP to regen or her heal to come back up.

I don’t think Thieves should regen while stealthed. It’s being abused. Or the timer for being in combat shouldnt run out while in stealth because them maintaining stealth is for a combat reason.

-Note, at any point in time she could stall like this and WP away from a bad engagement. No skill required.

Combat timer doesn’t end when you stealth. If anything, it bugs out most of the time and we don’t leave combat for a minute of not fighting or being hit. Thief has a trait that regens HP while in stealth, but this is only taken by the more tankier thieves.

Collin Jones.9781:

How is this fun or fair for the opposition? The ammount of skill it takes to press your invisibility button is quite low, while you could argue theres not much you can do to ensure a kill on a good thief.

Stealth is super strong in every MMO it comes out with. The ability to pick and chose who and when you fight, and also when you pull out of combat is incredibly powerful. Where is the balance? This is next gen gaming right? Why is this still an issue? Deminishing returns on stealth, slow their movespeed significantly, nerf the ammount of ways they can aquire it.

Or maybe melees should have a way to see stealth or atleast get a hint at which way shes going briefly. Going invisible in plain sight 2 inches infront of a guy hammering on you is pretty rediculous.

You find “Going invisible in plain sight 2 inches infront of a guy hammering on you is pretty rediculous.”, and yet accept the fact that the game has talking cats, green/pink/blue midgets, walking talking plants, fireballs, clones, portals, zombies, force fields, instant travel between 2 places…should I continue?

What you fail to realize Mr. Guardian, is that stealth and movement are the thief ONLY defense. We can’t stand their and take punishment like you can (or most other classes). We don’t have access to protection, or retaliation, or stability (outside of an elite), or swiftness (without trait and using a dodge/situational steal). Thieves aren’t the only class with the ability to get out of combat when they choose (Ele (d/d for best results), warrior, ranger and mesmer can all disengage at will with pretty decent success rates).

Collin Jones.9781:

Currently, I have to use my gap closers once she on the map again. Then she uses hers to get away and stall for her cooldowns to run even more. How fun. Good job designing this. This must be intended, cause even in theorycrafting you could tell this was the end result.

I did get her down though, cause she engaged again for no real reason. Thats another issue. For “balance” purposes, you should be able to outplay your opponent OR Capitalize on their mistakes.

Theres no way for me to outplay someone who is this elusive. I have to wait for her to slip up (a smart thief wouldnt) and THEN i get to have a chance. Thats dumb. This class should require finess not just button mashing to spam invis when real competition comes along.

Your problem here is that you thought you deserved the kill…and chased the thief by yourself for 10-15 (?) minutes. Guardians are one of the worse classes to try and catch a thief. Period. As for you outplaying them, they way you described it, they outplayed you. Guardians do best in groups, as they can throw out of LOT of buffs for their party (or nearest 4-5 people). Thieves are best in 1v1 situations. This thief pulled you away (or found you alone) and kept you busy for a long time. You were definitely not outplaying this thief (from what you’ve described here).

Also, that “house like ability” you were talking about is Shadow Refuge. If you knew what other classes abilities did, you would know that as a guardian, you can destroy people who use this ability. Whirl around or smack the ground where the house appears, you have a good chance of hitting the thief since the thief cannot leave this area until the “house” disappears without getting the revealed debuff.

cont…

Collin Jones.9781:

Anyway, once downed guess what she did. She stealthed away again. Didn’t reappear until she was healed about 90-95%, I judges interventioned over, too late, she disapeared. Didn’t catch her the last time, had no idea where she went. I think she WP’d away. This was an issue that they said they would fix back in the freaking Beta. Do you all play Thieves? wtf.

Thief cannot do this unless your last few hits before he went down took the thief from over 25% to down (last refuge trait).

Collin Jones.9781:

After catching this stupid person who cant fight or pvp worth a kitten about 8 times or more, she gets away. Thanks. I deserved it I guess right? For daring to fight a Thief at any particular skill level?

Cheesiest class in the game for PvP

Im never going to pvp in any form ever again. Your game is good. Your PvP sucks. Just because i don’t like being the pansy who stabs people in the back, i don’t get a fair chance at a fight. Thanks for punishing me

Rest of this is just not needed, and only serves to underline why posts like this don’t (hopefully) get noticed by ANET. If you don’t like something, suggest something. Don’t come crying nerfs when clearly you don’t know anything about the class you are QQing about.

By the by, s/tPvP if you don’t like thieves. Once you get out of bunny, thieves are a very very VERY rare class. You’ll be fighting your brethren most of the time, it’s like 90% guardian/warrior/ele/ranger, 9% mandatory 1 mes, 1%thief/eng/necro (only reason I don’t have mes at 25% like you would expect as a “mandatory 1” is sPvP, kinda rare to see them there vs the number of matches you get with 4/4 guardians or warriors).

(sorry for double post, but the one I was replying to was rather lengthy)

NinjaEd.3946:

@ Kasma, I don’t think you’re fully understanding. Thieves, in order to do the “OP dmg” they do, sacrafise a ton of defensive stats and with such low health pool and only access to medium armor (not complaining about that) it balances out. Warrior on the other hand, can go full power/vit/toughness, have minimal crit dmg and still plow through people. They’re brutes in both defence and damage nothing to sacrafise for them so they hardly even need mobility with how much damage they can take. I’ve messed around on a bunker build warrior with a hammer in spvp a couple times. I lived, with 3 or so players attacking me for almost a minute. Was hardly fighting back, I just would dodge, stun break, or knock down/back a couple times. I also managed to down a player but he got back up since I was unable to finish them off. Point being, even a complete idiot at warrior (me) they can perform greatly. Thief takes knowledge to get the skill you’re describing, which not many have (talking to you, HS spamming thieves out there).

The majority of stats do not come from the trait tree. You honestly think that losing 50-200 power is going to make a big difference, considering the great burst a Thief has?

You’re comparing two different playstyles here. The Thief doesn’t really need a ton of vitality or toughness, when they have next to permanent stealth, and a ton of movement skills on top.

Daecollo.9578:

I will just quote everything you said, its pretty much proof that you don’t play either of the classes.

This is why we have such a problem, people are just screaming OP when they have no idea how to deal with thieves.

Its more of a learn to play problem then anything.

I mean, everything you said in the post above is absolutely ridiculous, none of that is viable, why would you waste your heal/your dodges/and be forced to TURN 180 degrees to roll back, do you have ANY idea how clunky and stupid that alone sounds?

Screaming overpowered? Did you even read what I wrote? None of what any of these professions do, in terms of movement, is overpowered. I was simply just debating that the Thief is the best when it comes to traveling and mobility, as it should be. I don’t know what you’re talking about?

It is perfectly viable. You use your healing skill as the first skill, when you have to move from one place to the next, so it will have recharged when you get there (Withdraw has a recharge of only 15 seconds). The effects I mention come from traits: Vigorous Recovery gives you get 10 seconds of vigor when you use a healing skill, meaning you aren’t wasting your dodges at all. Expeditious Dodger gives you 2 seconds swiftness whenever you evade/dodge. Preparedness gives you 3 extra initiative, which you can easily save. And Kleptomaniac gives you 3 initiative whenever you use Steal. Roll for Initiative automatically gives you 6 initiative.

Yes, I realize how awkward it sounds, but having play it, I also know how easy it is to turn 180. If you seriously think that pressing three keys in rapid succession is difficult, you must not be very good at this game. No offense meant.

@Topher: Disagreed on sPvP though, amounts of thiefs in sPvp is high :P Agreed in tpvp though

Kasama.8941:

NinjaEd.3946:

@ Kasma, I don’t think you’re fully understanding. Thieves, in order to do the “OP dmg” they do, sacrafise a ton of defensive stats and with such low health pool and only access to medium armor (not complaining about that) it balances out. Warrior on the other hand, can go full power/vit/toughness, have minimal crit dmg and still plow through people. They’re brutes in both defence and damage nothing to sacrafise for them so they hardly even need mobility with how much damage they can take. I’ve messed around on a bunker build warrior with a hammer in spvp a couple times. I lived, with 3 or so players attacking me for almost a minute. Was hardly fighting back, I just would dodge, stun break, or knock down/back a couple times. I also managed to down a player but he got back up since I was unable to finish them off. Point being, even a complete idiot at warrior (me) they can perform greatly. Thief takes knowledge to get the skill you’re describing, which not many have (talking to you, HS spamming thieves out there).

The majority of stats do not come from the trait tree. You honestly think that losing 50-200 power is going to make a big difference, considering the great burst a Thief has?

You’re comparing two different playstyles here. The Thief doesn’t really need a ton of vitality or toughness, when they have next to permanent stealth, and a ton of movement skills on top.

Daecollo.9578:

I will just quote everything you said, its pretty much proof that you don’t play either of the classes.

This is why we have such a problem, people are just screaming OP when they have no idea how to deal with thieves.

Its more of a learn to play problem then anything.

I mean, everything you said in the post above is absolutely ridiculous, none of that is viable, why would you waste your heal/your dodges/and be forced to TURN 180 degrees to roll back, do you have ANY idea how clunky and stupid that alone sounds?

Screaming overpowered? Did you even read what I wrote? None of what any of these professions do, in terms of movement, is overpowered. I was simply just debating that the Thief is the best when it comes to traveling and mobility, as it should be. I don’t know what you’re talking about?

It is perfectly viable. You use your healing skill as the first skill, when you have to move from one place to the next, so it will have recharged when you get there (Withdraw has a recharge of only 15 seconds). The effects I mention come from traits: Vigorous Recovery gives you get 10 seconds of vigor when you use a healing skill, meaning you aren’t wasting your dodges at all. Expeditious Dodger gives you 2 seconds swiftness whenever you evade/dodge. Preparedness gives you 3 extra initiative, which you can easily save. And Kleptomaniac gives you 3 initiative whenever you use Steal. Roll for Initiative automatically gives you 6 initiative.

Yes, I realize how awkward it sounds, but having play it, I also know how easy it is to turn 180. If you seriously think that pressing three keys in rapid succession is difficult, you must not be very good at this game. No offense meant.

Re: Withdraw.

On my condition build I roll with Balthazar and use it as an aimed fire blast burst and rarely ever miss. It’s an amazing healing skill that just takes a lot of skill and practice to aim it at exactly where you want it to go without wasting time. Call it a high skill ceiling.

On a different note, I already posted this in its own thread fearing that it’d get drowned by all the noise here. But as a formality, I’ll drop this idea here too anyways:

Leap finisher on infiltrator strike. This should give some much needed synergy between the offhand pistol and main hand sword and access to stealth albiet a costly one like that in dagger pistol.

Thoughts?

Some of my issues with thief atm.

High Condition damage p/d thief is OP right now due to culling and culling only. This could be said about d/d thief, but to a lesser extent because you can easily avoid Backstab, while Sneak Attack is much harder to mitigate.

Shadowstep should not show the animation of breaking stealth if it doesn’t actually break stealth. Very confusing.

Traps are bugged and do not work 50-80% of the time.

That’s it for now.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Scorael.8952:

2) Revealed debuff refreshes when attacked by foe. I’m basing this off the assumption that thieves are skilled enough to run away. That being said I am guessing ranged weapons could undo this quite quickly.

How would this be fair in Wv3?

By not attacking a group of people, lol?

Kidding, I do see your point but I have seen many thieves attack 1 person who is surrounded by friendlies though and seem to have no trouble running away to do it again.

Daecollo.9578:

The counter to it is he can’t do anything while perma-stealthed, and to perma-stealth you have to sacrifice almost all your damage.

As a necromancer player, I would Lul if thieves got taken out of stealth by damage, stealth would just become the most useless ability in the game and thieves would need massive buffs in survivable and damage to compensate.

I would laugh even more if it broke on bleed and burn, because then they couldn’t even stealth at all, or do anything to my necromancer, MARKS FTW!

I don’t see how not being able to do anything in stealth would count as a counter. I consider a counter to stealth to be something a player can do to break a rogue’s stealth. On the permastealth builds, so far the rogue’s I have encountered are quite capable of delivering solid damage and appear to be invisible 90% of the fight.

If I had my way with thieves I would probably make stealth break on damage just for the lulz. However, I do recognise that stealth is an essential part of the thief’s class mechanic and that tweaking it too far would ruin the class.

I would also like to add that I hope the devs can fix the culling issue. It would unlikely destroy the nerf cries but I can hope that it makes it easier to fight thieves.

bladie.5084:

I do not understand the animation of it, where you’re shooting “powder” from your gun but it drops to your feet?

The original gunpowder, called “black powder” today, wasn’t smokeless. So when you fired a really-old-timey firearm, it would create a little cloud of smoke around the gun. The thief’s Black Powder shot is supposed to represent what happens when you “overdo it.” You’re not shooting the smoke; you’re using a side-effect of discharging the weapon to create the smoke.

As for the people saying im just QQing and being outplayed. Once again some stupid chick Thief from the guild Noir on Devonas Rest is just killing people. Whoever she likes. Its not me getting outplayed theres 8 people here vs 2 thieves and nobody can get a kill. Once they down anyone they safeguard/finish. The Commanders pulled the zergs off of them cause we couldnt kill them.

CHEESIEST CLASS IN THE GAME

I know you want to defend your cheap kitten class but its undeniably easy. Assassin classes are suppost to be high risk, high reward. Where the kitten is the risk. They dont even run away when the zerg shows up. They keep their distance and linger like vultures. Heaven forbid they have a gear advantage vs anyone.

Theres no outplaying them. Invis, Invis, Invis, Invis. 4 of us doing that other guys strat of swinging wildly to no success at all. Cause you have to be directly ontop of them when they stealth to have a chance at that but you cant because they dodge roll caltrops to slow or shadow step or steal to something. They make sure your not in melee range when they go in stealth. Wow. Talent.

I’ve played 15 different MMO’s and MMO’s in general for like 10 years. this is too 1 sided. There shouldnt be a class that can freely dance around all the other professions in the game.
Too easy.

Collin jones. Ok now I’m confused. You said that in 8 vs 2 thiefs yall spent all that time fighting and chaseing but couldnt kill one of the thiefs. But earler you said you fought one of them 1 on 1 for 15 min and droped her several tmes but couldnt finish her and in the end she ran away. Which is it? Sounds to me that YOUR the one that is op. Being able to go toe to toe and do something 8 people couldnt. Also and here is something you don’t understand. She fought you for 15 min and couldnt drop you either. Two people fought two people lived sounds like a draw. That sounds balanced to me.

2 diff scenarios sorry, the time 4 of us were chasing swinging wildly happened before the 8v2. I just sat back and watched the 8v2 cause clearly im a bad. I dont know how to play,. My meta skills that are terrible thats why thieves seem so broken… >_>

When i saw 2 thieves downing my faction members and the commander trying to pull the zerg away it became pretty clear you guys are just lying to defend your class.

When i 1v1’d that thief i downed her “when she came at me” yes. I have full exotic gear with 3300 toughness 50% crit and 2900 Power. Pretty sure i just out geared her.

How many times do you figure she meets a guy that powerful? That she can’t drop? Probobly doesn’t happen too often i’d say by the way she struts around fearless of zergs. Why should she be afraid? She wont die.

Two people fought yes, only the thief controls when it happens, where it happens, and when she wants it to stop. I have no say in the matter and am just there for the ride. If i tried to run she could easily catch, if i try to chase, she easily eludes. Theres no punishment for her making a bad call. No risk. No balance.

There are other games out there guys where the stealthy class only gets 1 maybe 2 stealths and are just as squishy. They have to pick their targets carefully and execute them quickly or else they get killed. It’s more of an art and im sure gw2 thieves would fall flat on their faces.

Thieves should be more than spam invis and rely on lag so their character doesn’t load to win fights IMO. Just sayin’

Wtb other half of my traps working.
wtb corrosive trap working on ambush
wtb working scorpion wire.
wtb removal of filler traits.
wtb a more wholesome body-shot.
Wtb more consideration for the lack of stealth in an acrobatic build.
wtb my infiltrator strike not flopping on me unexpectedly.
wtb 3 ini dancing dagger or something can it get some scalability like the mesmers pistol shot? Very lackluster when there’s only 1 opponent.
Wtb some less Stealth oriented focus in SA or acrobatics, brah I teleport Why do I have to specialize the stealth all the bloody time or get just a higher health buffer that won’t mean anything except taking 1 extra shot at the start of a battle.

A bit squishy, with high skill initiative cost! but for the most part i likeeee!!!!

Collin Jones.9781:

As for the people saying im just QQing and being outplayed. Once again some stupid chick Thief from the guild Noir on Devonas Rest is just killing people. Whoever she likes. Its not me getting outplayed theres 8 people here vs 2 thieves and nobody can get a kill. Once they down anyone they safeguard/finish. The Commanders pulled the zergs off of them cause we couldnt kill them.

CHEESIEST CLASS IN THE GAME

I know you want to defend your cheap kitten class but its undeniably easy. Assassin classes are suppost to be high risk, high reward. Where the kitten is the risk. They dont even run away when the zerg shows up. They keep their distance and linger like vultures. Heaven forbid they have a gear advantage vs anyone.

Theres no outplaying them. Invis, Invis, Invis, Invis. 4 of us doing that other guys strat of swinging wildly to no success at all. Cause you have to be directly ontop of them when they stealth to have a chance at that but you cant because they dodge roll caltrops to slow or shadow step or steal to something. They make sure your not in melee range when they go in stealth. Wow. Talent.

I’ve played 15 different MMO’s and MMO’s in general for like 10 years. this is too 1 sided. There shouldnt be a class that can freely dance around all the other professions in the game.
Too easy.

NOt sure it’s the cheesiest all of the time. In WvWvWm it certainly is. Highest dps, permastealth and best mobility are a bit much.

^ People not aware of stealth mesmers, having their phantasm’s troll you while they themselves are stealthed. Or abusing culling/loadng to chain clone creation target break temporary invisibility with utility stealth… then dropping the portal and 12 asura golems pop out like wtf.

Oh well whatever.

i can see mesmers though. that’s a big difference.

does make sense that i eat thieves in wvw for breakfast, lunch and dinner ?
in worst case scenario they got downed/died in stealth
so, if i may ask, where is the OP’ness here ?
in my humble opinion, crying on forums instead of learning how thieves can be countered, makes the thief community angry
is that what you really want ?

ensoriki.5789:

^ People not aware of stealth mesmers, having their phantasm’s troll you while they themselves are stealthed. Or abusing culling/loadng to chain clone creation target break temporary invisibility with utility stealth… then dropping the portal and 12 asura golems pop out like wtf.

Oh well whatever.

The Mesmer balance stealth by having horrible movement. You only have the focus for guaranteed swiftness and two teleportation skills, unlike the Thief who can get close to permanent swiftness, superior endurance regeneration, and several shadow stepping skills on top. The Mesmer also only has three stealth skills with a combined duration of 11 seconds, and with a recharge of 40 or 90 seconds. Meanwhile, the Thief have seven ways to get stealth, and can have permanent stealth! Further more, the Mesmers clones die very easily, and phantasms are obvious and easy to dodge after their first attack.

So yeah, not really the best comparison.

^ not getting it.
It’s not entirely on the basis of stealth, but that Mesmers can take stealth in WvW to replicate similar feats at the same time having illusions to support them and having better boon support and inheritely higher health to mitigate the loss of frequent stealth. Just because you can see them for longer does not mean you are denting them more % wise and clone creation rendering them momentarily invisible is emphasized in WvW. If issue is escaping without qualm, Eles and Mesmers can do that quite well themselves. Contrary to Mesmer arguments, their lack of stealth doesn’t equate to having no mobility. It just requires greater consciousness.
If it’s getting damaged without being seen, Mesmers can also do it, even through simple clone creation target break.
In other words: If issues of invisibility/escape/damage are problems, the thief does not exist alone in that, and while other professions may not have stealth or situational access (engineer) to it, they have they’re own nonsense. D/D eles being one of the best escape artists in the game. Switch to air, press 4. switch to fire, leap out, lightning flash. Gone.

Posting here at moderator’s request: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Remove-stealth-on-miss-evade-block/first#post1356947

There have been times when a thief stealths and I start moving around, dodging etc to avoid a backstab. It works and I see a “Evade” or “Block” or “Miss” or “Invulnerable” message on my screen, but still no thief. This gives them yet another chance to fix the botched attack.

It seems to me that these missed attacks should unstealth the thief. They mucked up. Now pay the price. How do they get to have yet more shots when I lucked out once by dodging at the right time?

bhagwad.4281:

Posting here at moderator’s request: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Remove-stealth-on-miss-evade-block/first#post1356947

There have been times when a thief stealths and I start moving around, dodging etc to avoid a backstab. It works and I see a “Evade” or “Block” or “Miss” or “Invulnerable” message on my screen, but still no thief. This gives them yet another chance to fix the botched attack.

It seems to me that these missed attacks should unstealth the thief. They mucked up. Now pay the price. How do they get to have yet more shots when I lucked out once by dodging at the right time?

As a thief myself, I absolutely agree with this.
If you miss a backstab you shouldn’t be allowed to repeat it every half a second until you land it.

Miss should bring you out of stealth at the very least, so you can’t spam any more stealth attacks. Revealed debuff probably shouldn’t be applied here since there’s no damage being done.

With this changed, those GC BS builds might finally have a high enough skill barrier to match that burst potential.

Yes, I’ve left WvWvW because of thieves on many occasions. It’s no fun fighting a perma stealthed enemy with the best dps in the game. With culling, thieves give up nothing to get perma stealth.

Kaon.7192:

bhagwad.4281:

Posting here at moderator’s request: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Remove-stealth-on-miss-evade-block/first#post1356947

There have been times when a thief stealths and I start moving around, dodging etc to avoid a backstab. It works and I see a “Evade” or “Block” or “Miss” or “Invulnerable” message on my screen, but still no thief. This gives them yet another chance to fix the botched attack.

It seems to me that these missed attacks should unstealth the thief. They mucked up. Now pay the price. How do they get to have yet more shots when I lucked out once by dodging at the right time?

As a thief myself, I absolutely agree with this.
If you miss a backstab you shouldn’t be allowed to repeat it every half a second until you land it.

Miss should bring you out of stealth at the very least, so you can’t spam any more stealth attacks. Revealed debuff probably shouldn’t be applied here since there’s no damage being done.

With this changed, those GC BS builds might finally have a high enough skill barrier to match that burst potential.

Agreed and disagreed. “Miss” on itself shouldn’t bring us out of stealth, what if I accidentally pressed attack while my enemy was still on the horizon? (for example my cat tripped on my keyboard). I’m a thief, and I wouldn’t mind being unstealthed when the attack is blocked, blinded or evaded however.

ensoriki.5789:

^ not getting it.
It’s not entirely on the basis of stealth, but that Mesmers can take stealth in WvW to replicate similar feats at the same time having illusions to support them and having better boon support and inheritely higher health to mitigate the loss of frequent stealth. Just because you can see them for longer does not mean you are denting them more % wise and clone creation rendering them momentarily invisible is emphasized in WvW. If issue is escaping without qualm, Eles and Mesmers can do that quite well themselves. Contrary to Mesmer arguments, their lack of stealth doesn’t equate to having no mobility. It just requires greater consciousness.
If it’s getting damaged without being seen, Mesmers can also do it, even through simple clone creation target break.
In other words: If issues of invisibility/escape/damage are problems, the thief does not exist alone in that, and while other professions may not have stealth or situational access (engineer) to it, they have they’re own nonsense. D/D eles being one of the best escape artists in the game. Switch to air, press 4. switch to fire, leap out, lightning flash. Gone.

The fact that the Mesmer is visible allows you to react to something, as opposite to a Thief thats invisible for the majority of a fight, mostly thanks to Cloak and Dagger. The Mesmer uses stealth in the way it is suppose to be used; to change positioning while avoiding damage, for a short duration. Clones do not make Mesmer invisible in any way. There are several ways to find a Mesmer easily; a lot of Mesmers make the mistake of moving around too much, you can use “call target” on the Mesmer if you are in a party, the clones auto attack is much slower then the Mesmers, the Mesmer very often is the one who is standing the farthest away from you, once you’ve found a Mesmer he has limited ways of losing track of you again (three stealth skills and two teleportation skills) and he moves slowly, clones die very easily to AoE attacks. Notice how most of these examples talks about something that is visible, while the counter attack against a Thief basically bears down to; “try and guess”.

The Mesmer being slow is what makes all the difference when it comes to stealth, because it allows you to predict where the Memser is going to come out of stealth, as opposite to a Thief that has so much speed and movement, it is next to impossible to predict a pattern. And when the Thief does go out of stealth, you will have already been dealt damage before you can react, thanks to the burst from stealth skills. 3 seconds later, the Thief is back in stealth again. Opposite to Mesmers, the Thief also gets several stealth bonuses from traits, like condition removal, regeneration, and even more speed. The Mesmer has one trait that improves stealth. Have you ever tried running away from a player with a Mesmer, while using stealth? If you haven’t, I can tell you that it doesn’t make any difference at all, because your are too slow to outrun your foe, and you have too little stealth to lose track of your foe. Meanwhile, all the Thief has to do is place down Shadow Refuge (as in one utility skill), and wait until he has 10+ seconds of stealth. Then he can go wherever he wants to, while having swiftness and several shadowstep skills to help him.

All professions have an easy way to escape. The Ranger can also use Swoop, Monarch’s Leap+Hornet Sting, and Call of the Wild. The Warrior can use Rush, Whirlwind Attack, Savage Leap, and Charge. The Necromancer has Spectral Walk and Death Shroud…and so on. But the Thief is still the best profession when it comes to movement, with next to permanent swiftness, several shadowstep skills, and movement skills like Roll for Initiative. Which is fine on its own. The problem comes when you add next to permanent stealth and incredible burst damage on top.

^^ Agreed. good escape would be one thing. Perma stealth and massive dps on top of that is laughable.

Kasama.8941:

The fact that the Mesmer is visible allows you to react to something, as opposite to a Thief thats invisible for the majority of a fight, mostly thanks to Cloak and Dagger. The Mesmer uses stealth in the way it is suppose to be used; to change positioning while avoiding damage, for a short duration. Clones do not make Mesmer invisible in any way. There are several ways to find a Mesmer easily; a lot of Mesmers make the mistake of moving around too much, you can use “call target” on the Mesmer if you are in a party, the clones auto attack is much slower then the Mesmers, the Mesmer very often is the one who is standing the farthest away from you, once you’ve found a Mesmer he has limited ways of losing track of you again (three stealth skills and two teleportation skills) and he moves slowly, clones die very easily to AoE attacks. Notice how most of these examples talks about something that is visible, while the counter attack against a Thief basically bears down to; “try and guess”.

The Mesmer being slow is what makes all the difference when it comes to stealth, because it allows you to predict where the Memser is going to come out of stealth, as opposite to a Thief that has so much speed and movement, it is next to impossible to predict a pattern. And when the Thief does go out of stealth, you will have already been dealt damage before you can react, thanks to the burst from stealth skills. 3 seconds later, the Thief is back in stealth again. Opposite to Mesmers, the Thief also gets several stealth bonuses from traits, like condition removal, regeneration, and even more speed. The Mesmer has one trait that improves stealth. Have you ever tried running away from a player with a Mesmer, while using stealth? If you haven’t, I can tell you that it doesn’t make any difference at all, because your are too slow to outrun your foe, and you have too little stealth to lose track of your foe. Meanwhile, all the Thief has to do is place down Shadow Refuge (as in one utility skill), and wait until he has 10+ seconds of stealth. Then he can go wherever he wants to, while having swiftness and several shadowstep skills to help him.

All professions have an easy way to escape. The Ranger can also use Swoop, Monarch’s Leap+Hornet Sting, and Call of the Wild. The Warrior can use Rush, Whirlwind Attack, Savage Leap, and Charge. The Necromancer has Spectral Walk and Death Shroud…and so on. But the Thief is still the best profession when it comes to movement, with next to permanent swiftness, several shadowstep skills, and movement skills like Roll for Initiative. Which is fine on its own. The problem comes when you add next to permanent stealth and incredible burst damage on top.

Well the Stealth is main part of the theif class. You receive those same benefits from the main part of your class stealth is just extra. You can get might on shatter, invulnerability, remove condition on shatter and remove condition on heal (actually anyone can get this with a food) random condition from clones killed, confusion from clones killed, cripple from clones killed, more damage for each active clone, move faster for each active clone etc.

Notice the theme is clones you also have the most stun breaks in the game which are really good and useful. Notice thieves don’t have clones so I cant compare them because they aren’t the same class. You can’t compare classes like that.

You get 1200m range access pretty easily you have spells (phantasms) that basically auto cast for you almost every 6 seconds and do alot of damage (berserker) really. Come on man! At a fight starting out at 1200m range against a target that you can see you can have so many clones out that you almost die trying to get to the real mesmer. I’m not complaining about mesmers as that was my first class level 80 with a legendary and all. Now I play thief level 80 with a legendary on it also. You can’t compare thieves and mesmers its different.

I wish I had access to stability, a invulnerable spell, good aoe damage, protection, etc. I don’t have access to those.

Also a mesmer has access to 5 ways to go invisible Blink, Mass invis, The prestige, Veil, and the trait for invis at 25% health. Nobody runs that trait that I know of so lets say 4 instead of just the 3 you listed.

Lets use a typical backstab thief on his hotbar he probably has Cloak and Dagger, and either refuge or Blinding powder. 2 skills but he could have 3. Now this should pretty much show you that you can’t compare the 2 in a vacuum like you did.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Kaon.7192:

bhagwad.4281:

Posting here at moderator’s request: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Remove-stealth-on-miss-evade-block/first#post1356947

There have been times when a thief stealths and I start moving around, dodging etc to avoid a backstab. It works and I see a “Evade” or “Block” or “Miss” or “Invulnerable” message on my screen, but still no thief. This gives them yet another chance to fix the botched attack.

It seems to me that these missed attacks should unstealth the thief. They mucked up. Now pay the price. How do they get to have yet more shots when I lucked out once by dodging at the right time?

As a thief myself, I absolutely agree with this.
If you miss a backstab you shouldn’t be allowed to repeat it every half a second until you land it.

Miss should bring you out of stealth at the very least, so you can’t spam any more stealth attacks. Revealed debuff probably shouldn’t be applied here since there’s no damage being done.

With this changed, those GC BS builds might finally have a high enough skill barrier to match that burst potential.

Agreed and disagreed. “Miss” on itself shouldn’t bring us out of stealth, what if I accidentally pressed attack while my enemy was still on the horizon? (for example my cat tripped on my keyboard). I’m a thief, and I wouldn’t mind being unstealthed when the attack is blocked, blinded or evaded however.

Missing means the thief failed to land the attack, plain and simple. It is a mistake on the thief’s part, whether it be from a genuine positioning error, misclick, cat on keyboard, or any combination of the above. Mistakes should have opportunity costs. And the opportunity cost for missing a backstab right now is about half a second before you can backstab again by just spamming 1, which I honestly don’t think is enough for a skill that can easily turn the tides of battle once it landed.

Kaon.7192:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Kaon.7192:

bhagwad.4281:

Posting here at moderator’s request: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Remove-stealth-on-miss-evade-block/first#post1356947

There have been times when a thief stealths and I start moving around, dodging etc to avoid a backstab. It works and I see a “Evade” or “Block” or “Miss” or “Invulnerable” message on my screen, but still no thief. This gives them yet another chance to fix the botched attack.

It seems to me that these missed attacks should unstealth the thief. They mucked up. Now pay the price. How do they get to have yet more shots when I lucked out once by dodging at the right time?

As a thief myself, I absolutely agree with this.
If you miss a backstab you shouldn’t be allowed to repeat it every half a second until you land it.

Miss should bring you out of stealth at the very least, so you can’t spam any more stealth attacks. Revealed debuff probably shouldn’t be applied here since there’s no damage being done.

With this changed, those GC BS builds might finally have a high enough skill barrier to match that burst potential.

Agreed and disagreed. “Miss” on itself shouldn’t bring us out of stealth, what if I accidentally pressed attack while my enemy was still on the horizon? (for example my cat tripped on my keyboard). I’m a thief, and I wouldn’t mind being unstealthed when the attack is blocked, blinded or evaded however.

Missing means the thief failed to land the attack, plain and simple. It is a mistake on the thief’s part, whether it be from a genuine positioning error, misclick, cat on keyboard, or any combination of the above. Mistakes should have opportunity costs. And the opportunity cost for missing a backstab right now is about half a second before you can backstab again by just spamming 1, which I honestly don’t think is enough for a skill that can easily turn the tides of battle once it landed.

That’s just it. Under the current set of mechanics, thieves get all the rewards for zero risk.

Columba.9730:

That’s just it. Under the current set of mechanics, thieves get all the rewards for zero risk.

You are so clueless about the thief class it’s getting to be ridiculous… Far from ZERO risk I can tell you… When I go P/D 1v2 or more I’m hitting anywhere from 2-3 buttons per second just about the whole fight and that’s not counting dodge. If I slip up just once, i’m finished. High Risk – High Reward… Thief class….

My warrior on the other hand is a breeze to play and at most times feels like a welcomed vacation after being on my thief for a while. So, can you explain your “thieves get all the rewards for zero the risk” statement a little more in depth for us. And I don’t mean for you to simply say “uhhh, perma stealth and culling” since those are the only two things you can seem to say about thieves.

I’m sorry, but since culling provides perma stealth, thieves can boost other stats/traits. a thief in our guild claims that he can stay perma stealthed, has 100% crit, 16k health, 3k armor and 2800 attack. he agrees that he can pretty much get into a full group and take out an enemy, escaping unscathed. so yes, culling allows thieves to get full stealth without speccing for it.

Columba.9730:

I’m sorry, but since culling provides perma stealth, thieves can boost other stats/traits. a thief in our guild claims that he can stay perma stealthed, has 100% crit, 16k health, 3k armor and 2800 attack. he agrees that he can pretty much get into a full group and take out an enemy, escaping unscathed. so yes, culling allows thieves to get full stealth without speccing for it.

I’m willing to bet most of his targets are underleveled, other thieves, or whatever he feels is the softest target there is. He probably gets in downs someone and probably gets no stomp.

really so he doesn’t have 15 points in shadow arts? Gotta be running d/p, blinding powder, shadow refuge, maybe smoke screen.

The weapons set that gives you the most uptime on stealth is d/p if he isnt running that then he isn’t this perma stealth build you speak of.

To do what you claim he has to trait for stealth which is the shadow arts tree there is no way to keep it up without traiting into shadow arts for infusion of shadow.

What is running some 30/30/0/10 build or maybe its 30/30/0/0/10 rofl totally optimal and not 1 trick at all.

A glass ele can do the same thing you know that right go in kill someone and leave. Want a video of that? I can grab it easily as well as other classes going in killing someone in a group and leaving or killing more than 1 person in a group and leaving.

Glass cannons purpose is to burst someone down and leave. Who specs glass and tries to fight a full group? I’m assuming full group is 5.

oZii.2864:

Columba.9730:

I’m sorry, but since culling provides perma stealth, thieves can boost other stats/traits. a thief in our guild claims that he can stay perma stealthed, has 100% crit, 16k health, 3k armor and 2800 attack. he agrees that he can pretty much get into a full group and take out an enemy, escaping unscathed. so yes, culling allows thieves to get full stealth without speccing for it.

I’m willing to bet most of his targets are underleveled, other thieves, or whatever he feels is the softest target there is. He probably gets in downs someone and probably gets no stomp.

really so he doesn’t have 15 points in shadow arts? Gotta be running d/p, blinding powder, shadow refuge, maybe smoke screen.

The weapons set that gives you the most uptime on stealth is d/p if he isnt running that then he isn’t this perma stealth build you speak of.

To do what you claim he has to trait for stealth which is the shadow arts tree there is no way to keep it up without traiting into shadow arts for infusion of shadow.

What is running some 30/30/0/10 build or maybe its 30/30/0/0/10 rofl totally optimal and not 1 trick at all.

A glass ele can do the same thing you know that right go in kill someone and leave. Want a video of that? I can grab it easily as well as other classes going in killing someone in a group and leaving or killing more than 1 person in a group and leaving.

Glass cannons purpose is to burst someone down and leave. Who specs glass and tries to fight a full group? I’m assuming full group is 5.

his spec doesn’t look like a glass cannon to me. the toughness is decent as is the health. Also he claims that he doesn’t need to spec high to get perma stealth since the culling bug does most of the work for him.

Columba.9730:

100% crit, 16k health, 3k armor and 2800 attack.

These numbers aren’t possible in order to get 3k armor he has to be in all Knights gear head to toe with the exception of 1 rampager trinket to help with crit chance. Then your only getting to 79.85% lets round up for fun to 80% crit chance. With 1.98 crit damage, health is 10,805 health. This is 30/30/0/0/10 since you said he didnt spec into stealth which means he has no points in the toughness tree at all.

This is factored with runes of the eagle(165 precision,8%crit damage) and I gave a generous 240 precision from foods(maintenance oils and butternut squash).

With sigil of accuracy your looking at 85% crit chance and if he gets 25 stacks on a sigil of perception we are looking at about 97% chance to crit. All of this with 10,805 health.

With that health, maybe 10/30/0/30/0 when not traiting into stealth/toughness. To get that toughness though, he’s probably in full knights armor and knights trinkets along with taking the 5% precision to vitality trait. His 100% chance is probably referring to the 30 point trait that only makes the next hit after stealthing crit. At 3k armor and 16k health, he’s not the burst you keep complaining about, he’s a bunker (about as much of a bunker as thieves can go).

Columba.9730:

a thief in our guild claims that he can stay perma stealthed, has 100% crit, 16k health, 3k armor and 2800 attack. he agrees that he can pretty much get into a full group and take out an enemy, escaping unscathed. so yes, culling allows thieves to get full stealth without speccing for it.

Well oZii, you have to understand that Columba clearly has no idea about thieves let alone thief traits, uses, or builds, nor does he care to learn them. But then again, he believes what he is told by another thief only when it suits his purpose to bring negativity to our boards and our profession.

With the BS this thief in your guild is feeding you Columba, it’s no wonder you are so negative towards thieves. Roll a thief so you’ll understand how a thief functions instead of just speculating and qqing about it.

True true I know what he is trying to do. My computer is currently in the shop so I can’t actually play at the momentn have to do something on my little net book.

This is not the first game that Columba plays almost exclusively on a forum using theorycrafting rather than in the actual game.

For those of you that have mastered or are putting forth the time and effort to master the thief, I commend you on it. For others who are quick to judge and want the thief made easier to play, I have a quote from the The Making of Guild Wars 2 book that came with the Collector’s Edition, Page 93:

UP FOR A CHALLENGE?
Many on the team always expected the mesmer to be the most challenging profession to play. And though it still may be, other professions turned out to be harder to master than expected. According to Isaiah Cartwright, both the thief and necromancer wound up being more challenging than anticipated. “The mesmer is the most difficult to play, but the necromancer is probably the most challenging to master,” Cartwright says. One thing is for sure: the mesmer, elementalist, thief, and necromancer all provide plenty of potential for complicated play.

My point is that people seem to complain more about the thief and necromancer being underpowered or unstable or whatever. But in my opinion it comes down to people wanting the game to adapt to them. Personally I Love the Mesmer and am not yet a huge fan of the thief, yet my friend has totally mastered the thief and at the same time he doesn’t care for the Mesmer. So just remember that the thief is supposed to be difficult, if you don’t like how it is working out then either alter your strategy or make another character type that fits your gameplay.

My observations:

I am farming some mobs in frostgorge and saw a thief kill a lvl 80 mob in 1 hit with backstab. So I asked him if he does that in WvW and his reply was all the time. Screenshot attached for proof of this. Sure, he could just be saying that, but I’ve seen the exact same thing happen in WvW. Maybe not 1 hit, but I’ve seen them kill in 2. The fact that they can stealth from what roughly seems every 5 seconds is also slightly ridiculous. A thief without any support set can solo a supply camp as well. If you’re any other class, you will most likely need some support equipment to take a supply camp yourself.

I’m sure I’m going to get flamed for this, but this is just my observations.

Maybe its just because I’m a condition build, but I wish I could kill a lvl 80 as a ranger in 1 hit.

I was typing the following post on your original topic magiofdeath .. guess I’ll post it here

First of all, why the censuring? We don’t need your character name to annoy you ingame .. By posting here we have your accountname .. :P

2: Indeed he can be lying
3: What you see, could be a GC killing a GC. The victim can be under-geared, he can be already down 20% health if you just look at them without hovering your mouse over the victim to see his health bar.
4: A backstab build doesn’t kill anyone in 1 or 2 hits, they actually need 3 hits minimum for the combo alone. Most of them also run “Assassin’s signet”, so 3 skills and 1 utility already.
5: Do some homework before posting, a thief stealth for 3 seconds. 4 seconds when traited, 12 seconds when using shadow refuge (which requires them to stay in an area for 4 seconds first, just counted it)
6: I don’t see how you know that the thief doesn’t use a support set for the supply camp? Because you see a thief use a certain set, doesn’t mean he also runs a certain set. We don’t have many weapon options. That thief that soloes a supply camp is traited to be able to do that just like any other profession has to.

These are my observations from your post.

Oh, I was censoring for the sake of the other player and people in my guild, not sure why I included myself – habit I guess.

Your point 5, ok yeah I was probably exagerrating, but going 2v1 against a thief in the past, it definitely felt like they were stealthing every 5 secs (even if it was only for 3 secs or w/e at a time per stealth). Its still annoying, because that means I have to start blindly throwing traps and I drop target. It happens frequently, hence why it felt like every 5 secs or w/e.

Your point 6, ok fair enough. Can a necro solo a supply camp with a PVT minion build? I dunno, but I’m willing to try it once my gear setup is complete. What does a thief do to solo a camp?

Ergh, keep on thinking of more things. If I understand correctly, a thief can spam skills based on initiative. If I could spam rapid fire with longbow without a recharge, that wouldn’t be OP? (My rapid fire tops out at I think 5k for a non power build). Yeah, being able to do 5k total dmg without waiting on a recharge would be a bit much.

its stupid to have profession who’s final auto attack doing 4-6k dmg and his skill 2 doing 2-4k dmg after that….(2-2-2-2-2) spam because of fast regen of initiative.
I could see future nerfs of autoattack final chain to 1 1/4 sec cast and HS 1 sec cd…this could be good nerf cheers

dude, i have to melee with med armor and lowest hp pool, wtf….

DanH.5879:

dude, i have to melee with med armor and lowest hp pool, wtf….

you have stealth 90% of the time so don’t complain
lowest have guardian.