Guild Wars 2

Sebrent.3625:

I’ll try to find it. I believe it was in one of their video interviews that was on the frontpage of guildwars2guru. If you find it before me, feel free to post it … date night tonight with the wife (I know, on server reset day, I’m a horrible person!).

As I’ve said before on several posts now, I personally am not having trouble fighting thieves 1v1. A group of 3 noobs that pop haste and spam heartseeker is a different story. I see those thief groups becoming somewhat common and it’s ridiculous. When a group of 3 noobs pops quickness on any other class I don’t care and still kill them. 3 Thieves is bloody annoying. Down one and they will get stealthed by their 2 buds and teleport away to be rezzed. It’s VERY easy to do. If it was hard to do, I wouldn’t mind and I’d commend them … like I do good engineers.

I disagree when caught 1/2 health by a non-thief. I roam solo a good bit and there are plenty of times a non-thief jumps me in the middle of me fighting someone and I escape quite easily. Thief is a different animal because they stealth enough to be very hard to control and they are far faster than me (i’m a bloody mesmer!). My one record on getting away on this is running all the way from the enemy’s north camp to just past Hills (east keep) before the Thief finally ran me down (with his friends dragging butt way behind) … and this was with Focus traited and Centaur runes. I don’t know how many times I crippled him and then pulled him back with Temporal Curtain but it was just never enough. I even tried changing directions and juking with clones but his speed was more than enough.

Elementalist is very fast and can be equally annoying, but when they ride the lightning is the best time to escape from them. You change direction and good day. Thief also has 1,200 range shadowstep, steal, etc.. If they are a sword thief, good God. I will admit to jealousy of Sword thieves. That’s a beautiful weapon.

I agree that full tanks are often useless, unless it’s something like a bubble guardian, hammer warrior, etc. intended to push a zerg, CC, cause mayhem, etc.. Those are some of the thankless heroes of WvW where most people are simply “duh, I hit stuff”, lol.

No worries if you can’t find it or if it’s a pain.

1v3 shouldn’t be any contest and you shouldn’t be able to get away regardless of their class if even 2 of them are even average players. But you’re correct… and I’ve also been able to get away in such situations… including vs 3 thieves (imo it’s not that hard to do as a mesmer with proper stunbreaks/stealth/invuln). I’ve gone str8 into groups of 5+ and been able to get away on all of my 80’s… but in those sorts of situations I would put their skill at about the same as grazing cattle. Sorry that I wasn’t more clear about what I meant. Again… I don’t think the game should be balanced based off of those.

As far as full bunkers… I run knight’s/valk/zerker gear on my guardian and can perform the vast majority of same functions as a full bunker… while being more useful in every other aspect of WvW. I’ll charge into a zerg, cause disruption, and be able to get out (I love you JI). Weapon choices = amount of CC I’m bringing (hammer + scepter/shield is a lot of CC). Even a full GC can do things like line of warding + wall of reflection at a choke point. A full GC mesmer can set up a lot of reflections as well. It does take a bit more thinking than just “Hey… I’m tanky… hit me and not them plz k thx” though… I’m not a fan of either extreme but I see more worth in a GC than a full bunker.

And dude… GW2 > RL… your wife will still be there after GW2 isn’t around anymore… get your priorities str8… :P

Aberrant.6749:

Sebrent.3625:

I’ll try to find it. I believe it was in one of their video interviews that was on the frontpage of guildwars2guru. If you find it before me, feel free to post it … date night tonight with the wife (I know, on server reset day, I’m a horrible person!).

As I’ve said before on several posts now, I personally am not having trouble fighting thieves 1v1. A group of 3 noobs that pop haste and spam heartseeker is a different story. I see those thief groups becoming somewhat common and it’s ridiculous. When a group of 3 noobs pops quickness on any other class I don’t care and still kill them. 3 Thieves is bloody annoying. Down one and they will get stealthed by their 2 buds and teleport away to be rezzed. It’s VERY easy to do. If it was hard to do, I wouldn’t mind and I’d commend them … like I do good engineers.

I disagree when caught 1/2 health by a non-thief. I roam solo a good bit and there are plenty of times a non-thief jumps me in the middle of me fighting someone and I escape quite easily. Thief is a different animal because they stealth enough to be very hard to control and they are far faster than me (i’m a bloody mesmer!). My one record on getting away on this is running all the way from the enemy’s north camp to just past Hills (east keep) before the Thief finally ran me down (with his friends dragging butt way behind) … and this was with Focus traited and Centaur runes. I don’t know how many times I crippled him and then pulled him back with Temporal Curtain but it was just never enough. I even tried changing directions and juking with clones but his speed was more than enough.

Elementalist is very fast and can be equally annoying, but when they ride the lightning is the best time to escape from them. You change direction and good day. Thief also has 1,200 range shadowstep, steal, etc.. If they are a sword thief, good God. I will admit to jealousy of Sword thieves. That’s a beautiful weapon.

I agree that full tanks are often useless, unless it’s something like a bubble guardian, hammer warrior, etc. intended to push a zerg, CC, cause mayhem, etc.. Those are some of the thankless heroes of WvW where most people are simply “duh, I hit stuff”, lol.

1v3 shouldn’t be any contest and you shouldn’t be able to get away regardless of their class if even 2 of them are even average players. But you’re correct… and I’ve also been able to get away in such situations… including vs thieves (imo it’s not that hard to do as a mesmer with proper stunbreaks/stealth/invuln). I’ve gone str8 into groups of 5+ and been able to get away on all of my 80’s… but in both situations I would put their skill at about the same as grazing cattle. Sorry that I wasn’t more clear about what I meant. Again… I don’t think the game should be balanced based off of those.

And dude… GW2 > RL… your wife will still be there after GW2 isn’t around anymore… get your priorities str8… :P

I agree that it shouldn’t be balanced around 1v3, but 3 mouthbreathers shouldn’t be able to just target me and bash 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 to kill me. Distortion is great but only 4 seconds at most and then I have blurred frenzy for another 2 and maybe another 4 if I’m traited and can get out 3 more illusions quickly. Blinking away they keep hitting it and leaping at me, it’s ridiculous. I have gotten away plenty but there are plenty of times I haven’t as well and it’s ridiculous that hitting 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 does that.

When a group of 3 mouthbreathers just auto-attacks me and uses everything when off-cooldown it isn’t nearly as effective and they are at least using multiple skills that include even some CC.

That’s the advice of a non-married man … i prefer to not have to sleep with one eye open.

Sebrent.3625:

Aberrant.6749:

Sebrent.3625:

I’ll try to find it. I believe it was in one of their video interviews that was on the frontpage of guildwars2guru. If you find it before me, feel free to post it … date night tonight with the wife (I know, on server reset day, I’m a horrible person!).

As I’ve said before on several posts now, I personally am not having trouble fighting thieves 1v1. A group of 3 noobs that pop haste and spam heartseeker is a different story. I see those thief groups becoming somewhat common and it’s ridiculous. When a group of 3 noobs pops quickness on any other class I don’t care and still kill them. 3 Thieves is bloody annoying. Down one and they will get stealthed by their 2 buds and teleport away to be rezzed. It’s VERY easy to do. If it was hard to do, I wouldn’t mind and I’d commend them … like I do good engineers.

I disagree when caught 1/2 health by a non-thief. I roam solo a good bit and there are plenty of times a non-thief jumps me in the middle of me fighting someone and I escape quite easily. Thief is a different animal because they stealth enough to be very hard to control and they are far faster than me (i’m a bloody mesmer!). My one record on getting away on this is running all the way from the enemy’s north camp to just past Hills (east keep) before the Thief finally ran me down (with his friends dragging butt way behind) … and this was with Focus traited and Centaur runes. I don’t know how many times I crippled him and then pulled him back with Temporal Curtain but it was just never enough. I even tried changing directions and juking with clones but his speed was more than enough.

Elementalist is very fast and can be equally annoying, but when they ride the lightning is the best time to escape from them. You change direction and good day. Thief also has 1,200 range shadowstep, steal, etc.. If they are a sword thief, good God. I will admit to jealousy of Sword thieves. That’s a beautiful weapon.

I agree that full tanks are often useless, unless it’s something like a bubble guardian, hammer warrior, etc. intended to push a zerg, CC, cause mayhem, etc.. Those are some of the thankless heroes of WvW where most people are simply “duh, I hit stuff”, lol.

1v3 shouldn’t be any contest and you shouldn’t be able to get away regardless of their class if even 2 of them are even average players. But you’re correct… and I’ve also been able to get away in such situations… including vs thieves (imo it’s not that hard to do as a mesmer with proper stunbreaks/stealth/invuln). I’ve gone str8 into groups of 5+ and been able to get away on all of my 80’s… but in both situations I would put their skill at about the same as grazing cattle. Sorry that I wasn’t more clear about what I meant. Again… I don’t think the game should be balanced based off of those.

And dude… GW2 > RL… your wife will still be there after GW2 isn’t around anymore… get your priorities str8… :P

I agree that it shouldn’t be balanced around 1v3, but 3 mouthbreathers shouldn’t be able to just target me and bash 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 to kill me. Distortion is great but only 4 seconds at most and then I have blurred frenzy for another 2 and maybe another 4 if I’m traited and can get out 3 more illusions quickly. Blinking away they keep hitting it and leaping at me, it’s ridiculous. I have gotten away plenty but there are plenty of times I haven’t as well and it’s ridiculous that hitting 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 does that.

When a group of 3 mouthbreathers just auto-attacks me and uses everything when off-cooldown it isn’t nearly as effective and they are at least using multiple skills that include even some CC.

---

That’s the advice of a non-married man … i prefer to not have to sleep with one eye open.

On my mes I’ll do things like start with decoy, then pop out another clone or 2 (if they are 2222 thieves they won’t be able to tell which one is you and will start to wack at the clones) That’s when I just book it with another stealth + blink then watch for when I get out of combat and then wp home (presuming nothing is close by for me to just run into for cover).

The focus is another great tool for getting away with the swiftness + cripple + suction. If you run runes of the centaur you can get a lot of swiftness to help you without needing to use a focus… but I would highly recommend using a focus if you’re out roaming. The GS iZerker doesn’t require you to be facing them when you cast it and will apply a cripple to them in a line that way as well.

I do a similar tatic on my thief at times when I’m desperate vs a lot of players with thieves guild (they make a GREAT distraction lol).

Again though… any class at all 1v3 should pretty much be able to faceroll you unless they are very unskilled. Just a few CC’s and then smash is all it really takes.

I completely agree that I should die 2v1 if they are my skill level. It’s just against the really bad mouthbreathers that Thieves are still actually dangerous. Horrible players playing other classes don’t really bother me and they don’t seem to bother others either.

Sebrent.3625:

I completely agree that I should die 2v1 if they are my skill level. It’s just against the really bad mouthbreathers that Thieves are still actually dangerous. Horrible players playing other classes don’t really bother me and they don’t seem to bother others either.

That’s just part of the foos elements in this game. I don’t really see a problem with it and it helps those 2222 thieves feel like they can do something while they are still learning. 3 greatsword warriors could do virtually the same thing with as little skill as those thieves can with hearseeker. They just need to press a couple of different buttons vs 2222. Not a whole lot more skill involved. Early on people were complaining about 100b wars as well btw… but people learned there is this dodging thing. You gotta adapt and learn to counter the tatics.

One part of this game that I’m not a fan of is the power multiplier sorts of things though… 1v3… the 3 already have an advantage… so why give the group with a number advantage more cough quickly rub rub rub ressing downed players cough… but whatever, I’ll live and deal with it.

Ha ha, I’m with you there. Only thing in that last post I disagree with is the 3 warriors.

They have to chain together some CC in order to do something to me. Warriors wreck targets that aren’t moving :-p Moving targets generally live. If I create a gap, they have to close it and they can’t spam a single ability constantly to keep doing that. If they hundred blades, fail. whirlwind, good job. Blade throw, decent as well. Rush, lol it’s buggy but I won’t dog them too much. Burst skill? LMAO (for greatsword).

See? The noob thieves just know they can hit 2 2 2 2 2 2 and the person will either blow several defenses to get away from their gangbang party or they’ll get a kill.

Ive put in a number of hours on thief/mez/necro. Ive seen the whole thing from both perspectives.

If heat seeker did minimal damage it would still be a cheap, spammable gap closer and leap finisher. I also dont understand why a spec that is so good at front loading damage needs to be able to back load this much damage as well. I feel that the “finisher” functionality is more in line with the sword mainhand than dagger.

On the other hand I understand why thieves require this level of burst in tpvp. The ability of pure bunkers to mitigate damage requires ridiculous levels of burst to compensate. The burst/bunker dynamic is too extreme on both ends, a problem that is exacerbated in wvw thanks to the ability to stack stats further in each direction.

The result of all this is that wvw plays more like a god kitten fps than an mmo and needs some serious adjustments all around. Adjustments that it will never get because no one important cares.

tl:dr: heart seeker needs to decide if it wants to be damage or utility, it shouldent have both. Compensate in other areas ect…

Add 1 init cost and -100 range to HS, and your problem will pretty much be solved. But really, if you immobilize or even snare those noobs, they are just bleeding init. Just hit them with one of those and dodge away and enjoy the free kill when they peter out.

Acelerion.6820:

tl:dr: heart seeker needs to decide if it wants to be damage or utility, it shouldent have both. Compensate in other areas ect…

I completely agree. S/x gap closer does practically no damage, it is like 90% utility (but it’s utility is second to none). I don’t see how anyone justifies huge range, combo finisher, and ridiculous situational damage. It is especially stupid in the logical progression of being able to do amazing damage with mug>cnd>bs, and just keep on your target until dead with this ability. A choice must be made. Revealed should come up no matter what (no stealth stacking) culling disabled and HS changed… After that, 100% L2P at all the whiners out there.

Laika.8795:

Add 1 init cost and -100 range to HS, and your problem will pretty much be solved. But really, if you immobilize or even snare those noobs, they are just bleeding init. Just hit them with one of those and dodge away and enjoy the free kill when they peter out.

Acelerion.6820:

tl:dr: heart seeker needs to decide if it wants to be damage or utility, it shouldent have both. Compensate in other areas ect…

I completely agree. S/x gap closer does practically no damage, it is like 90% utility (but it’s utility is second to none). I don’t see how anyone justifies huge range, combo finisher, and ridiculous situational damage. It is especially stupid in the logical progression of being able to do amazing damage with mug>cnd>bs, and just keep on your target until dead with this ability. A choice must be made. Revealed should come up no matter what (no stealth stacking) culling disabled and HS changed… After that, 100% L2P at all the whiners out there.

This I can agree with completely.

Dual.8953:

Laika.8795:

Add 1 init cost and -100 range to HS, and your problem will pretty much be solved. But really, if you immobilize or even snare those noobs, they are just bleeding init. Just hit them with one of those and dodge away and enjoy the free kill when they peter out.

Acelerion.6820:

tl:dr: heart seeker needs to decide if it wants to be damage or utility, it shouldent have both. Compensate in other areas ect…

I completely agree. S/x gap closer does practically no damage, it is like 90% utility (but it’s utility is second to none). I don’t see how anyone justifies huge range, combo finisher, and ridiculous situational damage. It is especially stupid in the logical progression of being able to do amazing damage with mug>cnd>bs, and just keep on your target until dead with this ability. A choice must be made. Revealed should come up no matter what (no stealth stacking) culling disabled and HS changed… After that, 100% L2P at all the whiners out there.

This I can agree with completely.

Or you could just learn to counter that very simple & predictable strategy instead of crying out for more HS nerfs…

Aberrant.6749:

Dual.8953:

Laika.8795:

Add 1 init cost and -100 range to HS, and your problem will pretty much be solved. But really, if you immobilize or even snare those noobs, they are just bleeding init. Just hit them with one of those and dodge away and enjoy the free kill when they peter out.

Acelerion.6820:

tl:dr: heart seeker needs to decide if it wants to be damage or utility, it shouldent have both. Compensate in other areas ect…

I completely agree. S/x gap closer does practically no damage, it is like 90% utility (but it’s utility is second to none). I don’t see how anyone justifies huge range, combo finisher, and ridiculous situational damage. It is especially stupid in the logical progression of being able to do amazing damage with mug>cnd>bs, and just keep on your target until dead with this ability. A choice must be made. Revealed should come up no matter what (no stealth stacking) culling disabled and HS changed… After that, 100% L2P at all the whiners out there.

This I can agree with completely.

Or you could just learn to counter that very simple & predictable strategy instead of crying out for more HS nerfs…

Chill, Dagger mainhand has plenty going for it. An adjustment to HS won’t break it.

Dual.8953:

Aberrant.6749:

Or you could just learn to counter that very simple & predictable strategy instead of crying out for more HS nerfs…

Chill, Dagger mainhand has plenty going for it. An adjustment to HS won’t break it.

The funniest part of this is that chill is a pretty good counter to HS, since it reduces the leap distance so severely.

shimmerless.4560:

I’m still quite curious as to why the Thief is a medium armor class.

Because a thief in extravagant mage robes or in heavy noisy plate armor would feel wrong obviously.

Softspoken.2410:

Dual.8953:

Aberrant.6749:

Or you could just learn to counter that very simple & predictable strategy instead of crying out for more HS nerfs…

Chill, Dagger mainhand has plenty going for it. An adjustment to HS won’t break it.

The funniest part of this is that chill is a pretty good counter to HS, since it reduces the leap distance so severely.

Good thing everyone has a chill slotted? This nerf would severely marginalize the latest D/P trend by forcing them to use their combo field much more situationally over wantonly. It will also completely eradicate the noob thief population, considering this is something only bads spam (straight from the D/x thieve’s mouth).

I don’t understand why D/x won’t just fall on their sword (or should I say dagger) as they are pretty much the ire of the entire community. If it’s such a nooby tactic to spam it from far away, why not put it in stone in the game’s mechanics? This change would not effect anyone who knows how to play, and it would lend a chance to all the people crying that our burst is inescapable.

Hell, revert the damage changes to post nerf status if you want, just increase init to 4 and range to 250 and everyone wins (except for bads).

I think thieves are almost there in terms of balance

They need to give them a few more buffs to achieve this tho

P/P needs a reliable way to stealth without utility usage

Jinks.2057:

I think thieves are almost there in terms of balance

They need to give them a few more buffs to achieve this tho

P/P needs a reliable way to stealth without utility usage

I think P/P would benefit more from a movement buff instead of encroaching on P/D’s territory. Like have Unload grant swiftness, cripple or vigor.

70% speed increase during the channel of unload would be cool, encouraging P/P users to kite.

Laika.8795:

Softspoken.2410:

Dual.8953:

Aberrant.6749:

Or you could just learn to counter that very simple & predictable strategy instead of crying out for more HS nerfs…

Chill, Dagger mainhand has plenty going for it. An adjustment to HS won’t break it.

The funniest part of this is that chill is a pretty good counter to HS, since it reduces the leap distance so severely.

Good thing everyone has a chill slotted? This nerf would severely marginalize the latest D/P trend by forcing them to use their combo field much more situationally over wantonly. It will also completely eradicate the noob thief population, considering this is something only bads spam (straight from the D/x thieve’s mouth).

I don’t understand why D/x won’t just fall on their sword (or should I say dagger) as they are pretty much the ire of the entire community. If it’s such a nooby tactic to spam it from far away, why not put it in stone in the game’s mechanics? This change would not effect anyone who knows how to play, and it would lend a chance to all the people crying that our burst is inescapable.

Hell, revert the damage changes to post nerf status if you want, just increase init to 4 and range to 250 and everyone wins (except for bads).

HS is fine and balanced. It’s been nerfed enough in the past and is where it should be ini/damage wise. On top of that, there are PLENTY of counters to some one HS spamming. Cripple/chill/blowout/teleports/stealth/protection/immobilize/evade can all be used to stop a HS spammer. Pretty much the only thing players can’t do is sit there like grazing cattle.

Just because a lot of people complain about a skill doesn’t mean its not balanced.

Aberrant.6749:

HS is fine and balanced. It’s been nerfed enough in the past and is where it should be ini/damage wise. On top of that, there are PLENTY of counters to some one HS spamming. Cripple/chill/blowout/teleports/stealth/protection/immobilize/evade can all be used to stop a HS spammer. Pretty much the only thing a player can’t do is sit there like grazing cattle.

It is not balanced. It does way too much, and costs way too little. And it’s not all regarding spammers. Getting nailed with 1000’s of damage in a mug>cnd>bs combo and then having to contend with someone’s massive leap that will hit for another couple thousand is cheap.

It incentivizes poor gameplay, and people like you not willing to accept culpability are bringing the crybabies calling for a nerf that will essentially ruin everyone but you.

Heart seeker is a stupid skill. It needs toned down, not in damage but in breadth. Any thief worth his salt doesn’t need a 450 range leap to catch his target.

Fixes that will stop QQ:
Heart seeker original damage ratios restored, range reduced to 300 and cost increased to 4 initiative.

Choking gas has a very small AoE damage component, so it cannot be spammed mid-zerg in stealth.

Caltrops break stealth on deployment.

Sneak attack requires positioning from rear to trigger bleeds, in line with every other stealth attack. (Face it, nothing sneaky about your opponent firing shots right in front of you. Perhaps a cripple on frontal would be more appropriate.)

Revealed on de stealth, no matter what.

Laika.8795:

Aberrant.6749:

HS is fine and balanced. It’s been nerfed enough in the past and is where it should be ini/damage wise. On top of that, there are PLENTY of counters to some one HS spamming. Cripple/chill/blowout/teleports/stealth/protection/immobilize/evade can all be used to stop a HS spammer. Pretty much the only thing a player can’t do is sit there like grazing cattle.

It is not balanced. It does way too much, and costs way too little. And it’s not all regarding spammers. Getting nailed with 1000’s of damage in a mug>cnd>bs combo and then having to contend with someone’s massive leap that will hit for another couple thousand is cheap.

It incentivizes poor gameplay, and people like you not willing to accept culpability are bringing the crybabies calling for a nerf that will essentially ruin everyone but you.

Heart seeker is a stupid skill. It needs toned down, not in damage but in breadth. Any thief worth his salt doesn’t need a 450 range leap to catch his target.

Fixes that will stop QQ:
Heart seeker original damage ratios restored, range reduced to 300 and cost increased to 4 initiative.

Choking gas has a very small AoE damage component, so it cannot be spammed mid-zerg in stealth.

Caltrops break stealth on deployment.

Sneak attack requires positioning from rear to trigger bleeds, in line with every other stealth attack. (Face it, nothing sneaky about your opponent firing shots right in front of you. Perhaps a cripple on frontal would be more appropriate.)

Revealed on de stealth, no matter what.

Sorry you if don’t find any of the many counters to HS spam to work for you. Maybe you could try to have a friend spam HS on you so you could work on them. I promise you.. they DO work with just a little bit of practice and timing. Not learning to counter such a straight forward tatic and nerfing it instead incentivizes lazy/poor gameplay and complaints on the forums.

Why bother to learn when you can just go complain? I literally can not remember the last time I died to a HS spammer. It’s VERY easy to turn the tables on them as they are VERY predictable.

Also sneak attack is fine, but if they wanted to up the bleed damage/stacks it would be fine to tack on extra requirements.

If you’re having issues vs. P/D thieves, just know the only time they’ll let you get close is when they want to c&d. If you dodge the c&d they’ll be exposed and auto attack bleed damage is weak. It needs to be built up to start doing significant damage. It’s also primarily a bleed damage set up (some poison thrown in there against heals). If you took along some condition removal you can easily mitigate their damage. Along with some dodge timing and it shouldn’t be much of a problem for you. Learn to have the first shot of sneak attack hit you then dodge the rest.

Caltrops not breaking stealth isn’t a big deal either… if it’s the utility just move out of the area and use ranged (don’t just stand in bad fields). At they’ll either sit there and auto attack you from range while being in the field (no big deal) or leave the area to try for a c&d/sneak attack (utility wasted). If it’s on dodge it’s a short small field and it breaking stealth every time you dodge would be ridiculous.

Seems like your stuck on your rationalizations, so I won’t bother. It’s thinking like this that will never get us anywhere.

Laika.8795:

Seems like your stuck on your rationalizations, so I won’t bother. It’s thinking like this that will never get us anywhere.

I guess I’m more from the POV that if you can so easily counter it… it shouldn’t be nerfed. If it’s something that can’t be reasonably countered, ONLY THEN should it be nerfed (call me crazy).

Seems like solid logic and good game design to me… feel free to call that a rationalization if you wish though…

When people talk about spammers it doesent necessarily mean opening on targets with a barrage of 2s.

Anet keeps reducing the damage and people keep complaining about it. Its because the skill combines incredibly high damage and fantastic utility. It gives thieves the ability to front load and back load damage all while being very difficult to shake.

In my opinion hs should hit for less than autoattack all the time and apply a cripple or something. The nerf on dancing dagger should be partially reverted and changed to a poison as a ranged dps option.

Heart seeker as it stands is a silly skill and is absolutely a crutch for not being able to track your targets properly

Acelerion.6820:

When people talk about spammers it doesent necessarily mean opening on targets with a barrage of 2s.

Anet keeps reducing the damage and people keep complaining about it. Its because the skill combines incredibly high damage and fantastic utility. It gives thieves the ability to front load and back load damage all while being very difficult to shake.

In my opinion hs should hit for less than autoattack all the time and apply a cripple or something. The nerf on dancing dagger should be partially reverted and changed to a poison as a ranged dps option.

Heart seeker as it stands is a silly skill and is absolutely a crutch for not being able to track your targets properly

Heartseeker should apply chill for 10 seconds if it does less damage then autoattack.

You talk like thieves are helpless without a high damage heart seeker. The reality is that it would put them right on the target so they could, you know, hit them with auto attack.

I have no argument in principle though. A cripple/chill is something a target can react to while the thief works on setting up higher damage options

The damage is fine really, the leap distance and initiative cost are the problem.

Thief has gap closing utilities, like shadow step and infiltrator signet, as well as steal which is part of our class mechanic.

People treat steal like it has to be front loaded with our damage, so they are entitled to a free weapon based gap closer. This mindset must be dealt with, because people are forgetting its usefulness outside that narrow paradigm.

S/x has an amazing gap closer, but it does no damage to speak of and is just a utility, with a “chase cooldown” of 15secs unless you fancy flying backwards.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Do you want gap closing to damage? No other spec has an execute of this caliber.

I have no problem with that either. Its taking the damage side of the utility/damage coin.

Laika.8795:

Aberrant.6749:

HS is fine and balanced. It’s been nerfed enough in the past and is where it should be ini/damage wise. On top of that, there are PLENTY of counters to some one HS spamming. Cripple/chill/blowout/teleports/stealth/protection/immobilize/evade can all be used to stop a HS spammer. Pretty much the only thing a player can’t do is sit there like grazing cattle.

It is not balanced. It does way too much, and costs way too little. And it’s not all regarding spammers. Getting nailed with 1000’s of damage in a mug>cnd>bs combo and then having to contend with someone’s massive leap that will hit for another couple thousand is cheap.

It incentivizes poor gameplay, and people like you not willing to accept culpability are bringing the crybabies calling for a nerf that will essentially ruin everyone but you.

Heart seeker is a stupid skill. It needs toned down, not in damage but in breadth. Any thief worth his salt doesn’t need a 450 range leap to catch his target.

Fixes that will stop QQ:
Heart seeker original damage ratios restored, range reduced to 300 and cost increased to 4 initiative.

Choking gas has a very small AoE damage component, so it cannot be spammed mid-zerg in stealth.

Caltrops break stealth on deployment.

Sneak attack requires positioning from rear to trigger bleeds, in line with every other stealth attack. (Face it, nothing sneaky about your opponent firing shots right in front of you. Perhaps a cripple on frontal would be more appropriate.)

Revealed on de stealth, no matter what.

if you got heartseeker range reduced to 300 , and init increased to 4 you will be able to jump 900 range with weapon skill
warrior can jump 1200 +450 with greatsword + 600 with sword
elem can already kite an thief when ever they feel like

Rayya.2591:

if you got heartseeker range reduced to 300 , and init increased to 4 you will be able to jump 900 range with weapon skill
warrior can jump 1200 +450 with greatsword + 600 with sword
elem can already kite an thief when ever they feel like

Infiltrator signet= 900, Shadow Step= 1200, Steal= 900 (1200 traited)

Again, you feel entitled to a massive gap closer because utility is utility and steal should only be used for damage.

You can chase down ANYONE with those skills, and 300 afterwards is plenty enough.

Stop acting like spoiled brats. Ele’s RTL got nerfed, rush is on 20 second CD. Hey, you have other weapon sets too, why not switch? Oh, because you won’t hurt them enough when you catch them.

The choice should be yours. These utilities aren’t optimal for your build? Don’t take them, but struggle to catch the two classes with better mobility than you. If you want to be on top, learn to make sacrifices.

Laika.8795:

Rayya.2591:

if you got heartseeker range reduced to 300 , and init increased to 4 you will be able to jump 900 range with weapon skill
warrior can jump 1200 +450 with greatsword + 600 with sword
elem can already kite an thief when ever they feel like

Infiltrator signet= 900, Shadow Step= 1200, Steal= 900 (1200 traited)

Again, you feel entitled to a massive gap closer because utility is utility and steal should only be used for damage.

You can chase down ANYONE with those skills, and 300 afterwards is plenty enough.

Stop acting like spoiled brats. Ele’s RTL got nerfed, rush is on 20 second CD. Hey, you have other weapon sets too, why not switch? Oh, because you won’t hurt them enough when you catch them.

The choice should be yours. These utilities aren’t optimal for your build? Don’t take them, but struggle to catch the two classes with better mobility than you. If you want to be on top, learn to make sacrifices.

ok since you are smart , let’s make real calculation
warrior :
whirlwind 450 , rush 1200
you use infiltration signet 1200 and 2 heartseekers ( 8 initiative)
warrior use kick , and bullchrge in another direction
you recover with shadowstep and use steal
warrior does whirlwind wich is already reused
you do 2 heartseeker and you are toe to toe with 0 initiative vs an warrior (with no utility available )
1.Good fight , eat the burst you desirve it.
2. fight back with 0 initiative
3. try to run ( ops you burned up all your utility skills)
4. He ignore you and do savage leap . OPS

How come the discussion has shifted into making heartseeker the ranger sword autoattack? Not to mention if they bumped up the cost our cost distribution across all the abilities (for D/D) would be 0/4/5/4/6, whereas S/D already has only 0/3(2)/4/4/6 and is more unified. If heartseeker broke CC, cured chill/cripple/immobilize, then upping the cost might be justified, but as it is, it’s such an easy counter to the ability, why nerf it?

Rayya.2591:

ok since you are smart , let’s make real calculation
warrior :
whirlwind 450 , rush 1200
you use infiltration signet 1200 and 2 heartseekers ( 8 initiative)
warrior use kick , and bullchrge in another direction
you recover with shadowstep and use steal
warrior does whirlwind wich is already reused
you do 2 heartseeker and you are toe to toe with 0 initiative vs an warrior (with no utility available )
1.Good fight , eat the burst you desirve it.
2. fight back with 0 initiative
3. try to run ( ops you burned up all your utility skills)
4. He ignore you and do savage leap . OPS

So in this hypothetical situation where you are fighting an extraordinarily cowardly warrior which is just absolutely a work of fiction, first of all, you may have blown a lot of CDs, but so did he. You can certainly stealth, via heal or utility. This is where you should be getting your dps from anyway, HS is just a means to an end.

You make it seem like you are owed the ability to catch him with one weapon set when he used two. Have a sword in your second slot, bam, 600 range and immobilize. If he backtracks, shadow return.

This is pathetic thief mentality, assuming that everything should be accomplished in one weapon set. Furthermore, and most importantly, ask yourself… In that scenario, what would anyone else do?? Why should you, as a thief, have exclusive rights to catch someone with that mobility and have plenty of means to put up a fight when over half the classes in the game would have have to give up pursuit after the first Rush?

Christ…

Maugetarr.6823:

How come the discussion has shifted into making heartseeker the ranger sword autoattack? Not to mention if they bumped up the cost our cost distribution across all the abilities (for D/D) would be 0/4/5/4/6, whereas S/D already has only 0/3(2)/4/4/6 and is more unified. If heartseeker broke CC, cured chill/cripple/immobilize, then upping the cost might be justified, but as it is, it’s such an easy counter to the ability, why nerf it?

Because it is a leap finisher, auto directs, goes 450 range, and can hit for ridiculous damage. Sword can go 600 range in pursuit, and hit like a wet noodle, before they are forced to switch weaponset’s to catch a fleeing target. No other weaponset can front load damage AND backload damage like D/x, which is just absurd.

It would force people to spend it more wisely, especially smoke leap combo users which are the new fotm and getting ever so slightly out of hand.

As for switching the conversation, this thread is about fixing the class, the is no linear topic that I’m deviating from, unless I’m missing something… I’m not suggesting game breaking mechanics here. I’d even be willing to go back to the previous damage ratios should these changes be in effect.

Laika.8795:

So in this hypothetical situation where you are fighting an extraordinarily cowardly warrior which is just absolutely a work of fiction, first of all, you may have blown a lot of CDs, but so did he. You can certainly stealth, via heal or utility. This is where you should be getting your dps from anyway, HS is just a means to an end.

Smart = Coward only in your opinion
Mobile strikes ( savage leap , whirlwind , bull charge, rush ) break imobilize
ask yourself how many warriors use that in wvw , and the answer will be over 70%
What you do call "hypothetical situation " other consider "tactical advantage "

Laika.8795:

You make it seem like you are owed the ability to catch him with one weapon set when he used two. Have a sword in your second slot, bam, 600 range and immobilize. If he backtracks, shadow return.

i Did not took in consideration only 1 weapon set when i pointed you the calculation.
regarding imobilize " check mobile strikes"
regarding weapon swap in combat mode " check " fast hands" same trait line with mobile strikes

Laika.8795:

This is pathetic thief mentality, assuming that everything should be accomplished in one weapon set. Furthermore, and most importantly, ask yourself… In that scenario, what would anyone else do?? Why should you, as a thief, have exclusive rights to catch someone with that mobility and have plenty of means to put up a fight when over half the classes in the game would have have to give up pursuit after the first Rush?
Christ…

you can post the calculation for 2 weapon sets.But of course the result be even worse.
Cause i got poor acces to stability , protection , knockbacks , knockdowns , and other forms of CC ,Cause i got poor acces to aoe, low armor and base hp.
And cause all those compensate with thieves mobility and stealth ability’s.

And wich are the classes who would gave up.
Maybe you need to study other classes gap closers as well .

Tell me what every other class would do to succeed in catching them in that exact same situation then, and I’ll concede to you. Promise.

And it is cowardly. I’ve never seen a warrior fight like that, rofl.

And you still have amazing mobility, and stealth is apparently god mode to anyone on these forums.

Your argument is weak, and I don’t know a single person here that would buy it. I applaud you for trying, however.

let me check guardian, they are slow aren’t they ?

Flashing blade -teleport to enemy 600 range
leap of faith -leap to your enemy 600 range
judge’s intervention -teleport to your enemy 1200 range
bane signet -knockdown your target -1200 range /2 seconds
sanctuary – form an protective shelter -900 range enemy’s cannot enter – they got knocked back when they try to pas intro it (1/4 seconds cast time)
p.s. I doubt you have seen lot of thieves going on direct damage build – stealth trained for 1200 range and 2 stun breakers ( infiltrator signet and shadowstep)
*Edit * my argument is for the lvl i aim to play at . if you are happy to kill ppls with green arrow near name, is your perosnal choice.
If an player is going to leave an pvp just cause enemy rushed in the other direction he is not looking to improve himself only to complain regarding other’s ability’s.

I haven’t seen anyone with that build because it isn’t necessary, they have no need to do it. If they did have to, I promise you they would be much more popular.

As for guardian, the mere notion that they haveore mobility than thief makes me laugh, heart seeker or no.

Again, if you want to chase someone that is going to be cris-crossing back and forth, chase with sword, use those utilities, and switch to dagger when you get close.

You also forget elites, can use basilisk venom for stun, thieves guild for pull.

they have no need for it, cause heartseeker is an – 450 – range leap with 3 initiative cost.
if they did had too , they would become not viable (far from popular)
Guardians do not have more mobility , they have ability to chase. They also have vigor on critical , wich makes them able to dodge as much as thieves( just for your information, since it looks like, you do not know very much regarding other classes)
I am sorry yes, i forgot elites . an thief who will pull your enemy, if he is in under attack by you, after 1 second cast time .
Or an basilik wich will stun your target when you hit him. 1 second cast time for 1.5 seconds stun,
Against warrior elite 30 seconds swiftness (reuse 48 )

You wouldn’t play D/x because you can’t heart seeker to your target without consequence?

Guess we have our answer as to why you’re fighting me on this.

Laika.8795:

You wouldn’t play D/x because you can’t heart seeker to your target without consequence?

Guess we have our answer as to why you’re fighting me on this.

the answer is :
I woudn’t play thief without dagger
I started game when i saw thief promo movie , It had dual dagger
i made an thief ingame to play with dagger
I call the thief clas -dagger
For me thief = dagger, and i am not the only 1
*Edit * why would they change the heartseeker . To make happy few players that will find another subject to complain about in next 3 days and make unhappy 90% of thieves population ?
I got no reason to argue with you, cause A-net takes in consideration those
“hypothetical situations” when they balance an clas.

I grow weary of the back and forth.

The changes I proposed would in no way BREAK the thief, it would just require more ingenuity and effort to achieve the results you currently do, and trust me when I say the class currently needs it.

Thief in its current state is extremely noob friendly, and that should be corrected to put an end to the whining within a reasonable capacity. The changes I’ve outlined before would be an excellent step in this direction, and put an end to the mindless play style most people put into it.

Any other suggestions over l2p and l2counter would be welcome, because its just not that easy sometimes.

thieves are newb friendly , cause random wvwwv pvps where , even if they got poor play style they can do 1 hit and get credit for kill , and escape with stealth.
However when you find 1-2-3 newbie theives you will have no problem to counter them with classic bull charge /frenzy/100 blades , or spawn 2 clones dodge roll for 3’rd and burst.
Since the most complains regarding thieves comes from wvwvw, i will tell you what happens over there. 2-3 thieves (full glas 12k hp / 1900 defence) hide and zerg 1 poor guy. If there are 2 roamers warriors /guardians /elementarists , thieves go back on the conner .

Laika.8795:

I grow weary of the back and forth.

The changes I proposed would in no way BREAK the thief, it would just require more ingenuity and effort to achieve the results you currently do, and trust me when I say the class currently needs it.

Thief in its current state is extremely noob friendly, and that should be corrected to put an end to the whining within a reasonable capacity. The changes I’ve outlined before would be an excellent step in this direction, and put an end to the mindless play style most people put into it.

Any other suggestions over l2p and l2counter would be welcome, because its just not that easy sometimes.

Because the dev’s shouldn’t nerf/buff just based on the complaints on the forums. That’s silly.

How easy a class is to pick up has nothing to do with higher end balance (where it actually matters and thief is a bit weaker than other classes).

Again… there are MANY ways to counter heartseeker. It’s been nerfed in the past down to what it is now… and it deserved it… but it’s fine as is now. Why further nerf something that lazy people just simply refuse to learn how to play against.

If one can’t counter something as simple as HS spam… then the thief isn’t the mindless player. They are using a skill that their opponent has problems countering. That’s smart. It’s akin to a street fighter player not being able to counter E-Hondas 100h slap and then complaining about it as their opponent uses it against them repeatedly instead of learning to counter it. However a vet will find it laughable and just rotflstomp the 100h slap spammer. Same EXACT thing happens with heartseeker. It’ll work at low ends of skill but not against higher skilled players. Therefore it’s fine and balanced as is.

In the case of heartseeker spam.
Why not just make the skill only usable on a target (afterall, mid air doesn’t have a heart to aim at).
And when target is out of range, your skill fails, no leap and you loose your 3 initiative.
Thieves would actually have to check their range then if they don’t want to burn ini for nothing. And getting yourself out of range fast enough would seriously screw up a HS spammer for that reason as hed be left with no ini.

Ironvos.9014:

In the case of heartseeker spam.
Why not just make the skill only usable on a target (afterall, mid air doesn’t have a heart to aim at).
And when target is out of range, your skill fails, no leap and you loose your 3 initiative.
Thieves would actually have to check their range then if they don’t want to burn ini for nothing. And getting yourself out of range fast enough would seriously screw up a HS spammer for that reason as hed be left with no ini.

is an leap http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap not an teleport
all those skills should fail if they don’t hit the target ?
what you ask is like , mesmer should not spawn clone on dodge unless they avoid an hit
blurred frenzy should not make you invulnerable unless you hit your target?

Rayya.2591:

Ironvos.9014:

In the case of heartseeker spam.
Why not just make the skill only usable on a target (afterall, mid air doesn’t have a heart to aim at).
And when target is out of range, your skill fails, no leap and you loose your 3 initiative.
Thieves would actually have to check their range then if they don’t want to burn ini for nothing. And getting yourself out of range fast enough would seriously screw up a HS spammer for that reason as hed be left with no ini.

is an leap http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap not an teleport
all those skills should fail without an target ?
what you ask is like , mesmer should not spawn clone on dodge unless they avoid an hit

+1…

Not even all teleports fail if the target isn’t in range… just look at Guard’s JI…

Rayya.2591:

Ironvos.9014:

In the case of heartseeker spam.
Why not just make the skill only usable on a target (afterall, mid air doesn’t have a heart to aim at).
And when target is out of range, your skill fails, no leap and you loose your 3 initiative.
Thieves would actually have to check their range then if they don’t want to burn ini for nothing. And getting yourself out of range fast enough would seriously screw up a HS spammer for that reason as hed be left with no ini.

is an leap http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap not an teleport
all those skills should fail if they don’t hit the target ?
what you ask is like , mesmer should not spawn clone on dodge unless they avoid an hit
blurred frenzy should not make you invulnerable unless you hit your target?

That’s true, HS would then not behave similar anymore to the other leap skills of other classes.
But the thief class has intentionally been made very different than all the other classes in terms of resource managing, so they might aswell go all the way and threat the thief ini skills also differently from other classes cooldown skills.

and you did not took in consideration a lot of builds.
Since you did not played an thief i understand it
For example: Dagger / pistol thief use combo field smoke combined with LEAP to stealth – you would not nerf this build – you would delete it from the game
thieves would be forced to use utility skills " shadow step" to counter weapon skills of other classes
Thieves are made to be most mobile clas in game. They got burst they got mobility.
Same way like mesmers got burst and clones +utility and guardians got defence +healing +utility … that’s 1 of the thieves specific .

Oh yes i took into consideration how this would affect the thief permastealth build.
It would solve two problems at once.
No more HS spam, less permastealth trolling.
Thieves would be less of a faceroll class and would require more thinking to be played.
That shouldn’t be a problem for good thieves since they already don’t use these gimmicky mechanics.

Ironvos.9014:

Oh yes i took into consideration how this would affect the thief permastealth build.
It would solve two problems at once.
No more HS spam, less permastealth trolling.
Thieves would be less of a faceroll class and would require more thinking to be played.
That shouldn’t be a problem for good thieves since they already don’t use these gimmicky mechanics.

Heartseeker is fine, if a thief wants to blow all his ini to spam it then let him. Heartseeker is good but it isn’t great. None of the thief weapon skills require a target for you to use them. No need to make an exception for heartseeker.

oZii.2864:

Heartseeker is fine, if a thief wants to blow all his ini to spam it then let him. Heartseeker is good but it isn’t great. None of the thief weapon skills require a target for you to use them. No need to make an exception for heartseeker.

It’s a fine crutch. Infiltrator Strike needs a target or it goes nowhere, whereas HS can be a gap closer, an escape, a leap finisher, and a damage skill.

It’s not all about spamming, but it’s pointless arguing because it comes right back to that.