Guild Wars 2

Svarty.8019:

Aberrant.6749:

See… I took that more as them all thinking “they just need to l2p against these classes then… why would we balance for such low skill level gameplay?”

To which I would reply that they should balance for such low skill level gameplay because the thieves themselves can be more effective than most other classes with less skill.

EDIT: In fact, the devs say as much right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0togRMEc_o#t=41m06s

What you’re complaining about is basically that not all classes have the same initial learning curve.

This is actually done on purpose to help new players feel like they can hop in a game and have a chance. Complaining about this is like some one complaining about how e-hondas 100h slap or an auto-shotgun in CS just owned them. They are just FOO tatics. Once you learn how to counter these tatics they are easy to deal with.

The guy even says something akin to as a vet this isn’t a problem for me… it’s only new players that have this problem. I also don’t have problems with thieves ganking me from spawn in PvP on any of my classes… because I know how to counter it easily. It didn’t take me long to figure out how either. I could explain the tatics used to counter the thief on the classes I play to the noob to help the person he’s talking about and the noob could pratice with those.

Many other classes have better higher skill gameplay potential than the thief. That’s the downside of foos. That’s why it’s rare you see a thief in a pro team. Same with why you don’t see a vet playing with e-honda or an auto-shotty… there are more powerful tactics available if you choose to practice and learn them.

So the solution? L2P better with your class and you’ll be just fine.

I hope you’ve learned a little bit about game design basics as well ^^

Aberrant.6749:

Svarty.8019:

Aberrant.6749:

See… I took that more as them all thinking “they just need to l2p against these classes then… why would we balance for such low skill level gameplay?”

To which I would reply that they should balance for such low skill level gameplay because the thieves themselves can be more effective than most other classes with less skill.

EDIT: In fact, the devs say as much right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0togRMEc_o#t=41m06s

What you’re complaining about is basically that not all classes have the same initial learning curve.

This is actually done on purpose to help new players feel like they can hop in a game and have a chance. Complaining about this is like some one complaining about how e-hondas 100h slap or an auto-shotgun in CS just owned them. They are just FOO tatics. Once you learn how to counter these tatics they are easy to deal with.

The guy even says something akin to as a vet this isn’t a problem for me… it’s only new players that have this problem. I also don’t have problems with thieves ganking me from spawn in PvP on any of my classes… because I know how to counter it easily. It didn’t take me long to figure out how either. I could explain the tatics used to counter the thief on the classes I play to the noob to help the person he’s talking about and the noob could pratice with those.

Many other classes have better higher skill gameplay potential than the thief. That’s the downside of foos. That’s why it’s rare you see a thief in a pro team. Same with why you don’t see a vet playing with e-honda or an auto-shotty… there are more powerful tactics available if you choose to practice and learn them.

So the solution? L2P better with your class and you’ll be just fine.

I hope you’ve learned a little bit about game design basics as well ^^

I found myself in WvW.. i don’t normally jump into WvW, but i went ahead and gave it a try. As a trapper/condition ranger, it was difficult.. and it just simply wasn’t good for my ranger. Thieves were out of control, i didn’t die from a thief (my toughness and vitality are rather high), but they were almost impossible to kill because of how fast they were able to stealth out immediately. This particular thief was doing a relatively high amount of burst damage. I felt like this was overpowered. Therefore, i respec’d.. bought new gear, change up my stats, changed up my skills. And after careful analysis, i realized that they’re not OP at all if you use the right skills/weapons.

After some practice, i eventually figured out a way to counter them. As long as i survived the first few blows from a thief (as i have many times, being spec’d in toughness/vitality) that i would get out of combat, change my utilities to trap skills, and plant them whilst sitting in the middle of my traps. I did this because they were too quick to stealth out when they attacked me, that i couldn’t get a good hit on them being that i was mainly melee with this build (sword/dagger) with shortbow secondary. BUT when i did this, I noticed that everytime the thief thought he had a great chance at attacking me (because i baited him by being solo), he would hit me, i would dodge, and he would trigger my traps, disorienting and confusing him. This particular thief didn’t expect it, and so when i dodged, i switched to shortbow, stunned him, used Drakehound skill to immobilize, Entangled him, and moved in for the kill.

I used to think they were OP. Until i figured out a way around them. They’re relatively squishy when you can outsmart them. I don’t think they’re OP now, i just think they need to be tweaked a little. Like the one guy said, maybe when the culling issue is gone we can address this, because the culling could be a factor in the perma-stealth.

So in essence, I guess the whole “L2P” thing is true. Just learn how to play your class and outsmart them.

Sebrent.3625:

Against other Thieves I was tearing them up because Thieves don’t like being dazed and I had a closer that immobilized. Weakness and cripple are also an issue for thieves.

Sword thief is a great way to troll other thieves :-)

So it was a divisive question Seb It proves fighting thieves is a L2 kitten ue.

If the ‘class’ was inherently overpowered you should at best get a 50/50 win rate. Yet here you are on a spec that noone considers overpowered destroying thieves who use the overpowered spec… you see where I am coming from?

Aberrant.6749:

Svarty.8019:

Aberrant.6749:

See… I took that more as them all thinking “they just need to l2p against these classes then… why would we balance for such low skill level gameplay?”

To which I would reply that they should balance for such low skill level gameplay because the thieves themselves can be more effective than most other classes with less skill.

EDIT: In fact, the devs say as much right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0togRMEc_o#t=41m06s

What you’re complaining about is basically that not all classes have the same initial learning curve.

This is actually done on purpose to help new players feel like they can hop in a game and have a chance. Complaining about this is like some one complaining about how e-hondas 100h slap or an auto-shotgun in CS just owned them. They are just FOO tatics. Once you learn how to counter these tatics they are easy to deal with.

The guy even says something akin to as a vet this isn’t a problem for me… it’s only new players that have this problem. I also don’t have problems with thieves ganking me from spawn in PvP on any of my classes… because I know how to counter it easily. It didn’t take me long to figure out how either. I could explain the tatics used to counter the thief on the classes I play to the noob to help the person he’s talking about and the noob could pratice with those.

Many other classes have better higher skill gameplay potential than the thief. That’s the downside of foos. That’s why it’s rare you see a thief in a pro team. Same with why you don’t see a vet playing with e-honda or an auto-shotty… there are more powerful tactics available if you choose to practice and learn them.

So the solution? L2P better with your class and you’ll be just fine.

I hope you’ve learned a little bit about game design basics as well ^^

Amen…. I think we can all remember starting out the game and trying to get our legendaries by doing the WvW puzzles. And then your whole party is wiped by one thief. The easiest response , “THIEVES OP”…. The obvious problem with the thief is the argument of “L2P”. I actually recall the same discussion over my class (warrior) and the whole hundred blades issue. Everyone QQs over something because they always die by it and deem it “Op”. After playing for several hundred hours, I’ve realized that thief isn’t OP. it really isn’t even a problem for people that know what they are doing .Anet shouldn’t nerf and dumb down a class just because people whine. Learn to fight the class and then you’ll be fine. If you think thief is SO hard to play against. Go duel your thief friends, take tips, get better. It’s an obvious solution. Don’t ruin the game for all our thief friends just cause you can’t handle it. New players get smashed by thieves , and the vets have no issue and can handle and dismiss it quickly. I wish everyone would understand this.

Faeyd.5094:

Sebrent.3625:

Against other Thieves I was tearing them up because Thieves don’t like being dazed and I had a closer that immobilized. Weakness and cripple are also an issue for thieves.

Sword thief is a great way to troll other thieves :-)

So it was a divisive question Seb It proves fighting thieves is a L2 kitten ue.

If the ‘class’ was inherently overpowered you should at best get a 50/50 win rate. Yet here you are on a spec that noone considers overpowered destroying thieves who use the overpowered spec… you see where I am coming from?

You’ll have to elaborate because I don’t see how a Thief killing another Thief proves that a thief is not OP. I think the fact that some of those thieves could present a challenge to my warrior but my thief soundly stomped them is a bit more telling.

I don’t think dagger+dagger is OP. My issue with dagger+dagger is it allows a noob spammer to be more effective than an average player trying to make good use of their skills on any other class. They have one skill that turns them, closes gaps for them, and does good damage. Don’t need wasd, get in range and press 2 2 2 2 2 2. If your target isn’t good, you get a kill. That’s pretty dumb and I hate seeing those players get kills against anyone.

I think sword thieves are much more dangerous than dagger. Sword gives up a little of the raw damage of dagger for more mobility, a built-in stunbreaker/condition removal, and a boon removal that hits almost as hard as backstab. The cripple and weakness from the auto-attack is also quite damaging. It makes it harder to fight back with direct damage and harder to leverage mobility.

<edit>
@ Ant Boogy:
Sounds like you fought a thief who was dumb enough to:

• Be surprised that a ranger had traps
• Not use a stunbreaker to escape from KD, etc.

</edit>

Sebrent.3625:

Faeyd.5094:

Sebrent.3625:

Against other Thieves I was tearing them up because Thieves don’t like being dazed and I had a closer that immobilized. Weakness and cripple are also an issue for thieves.

Sword thief is a great way to troll other thieves :-)

So it was a divisive question Seb It proves fighting thieves is a L2 kitten ue.

If the ‘class’ was inherently overpowered you should at best get a 50/50 win rate. Yet here you are on a spec that noone considers overpowered destroying thieves who use the overpowered spec… you see where I am coming from?

You’ll have to elaborate because I don’t see how a Thief killing another Thief proves that a thief is not OP. I think the fact that some of those thieves could present a challenge to my warrior but my thief soundly stomped them is a bit more telling.

I don’t think dagger+dagger is OP. My issue with dagger+dagger is it allows a noob spammer to be more effective than an average player trying to make good use of their skills on any other class. They have one skill that turns them, closes gaps for them, and does good damage. Don’t need wasd, get in range and press 2 2 2 2 2 2. If your target isn’t good, you get a kill. That’s pretty dumb and I hate seeing those players get kills against anyone.

I think sword thieves are much more dangerous than dagger. Sword gives up a little of the raw damage of dagger for more mobility, a built-in stunbreaker/condition removal, and a boon removal that hits almost as hard as backstab. The cripple and weakness from the auto-attack is also quite damaging. It makes it harder to fight back with direct damage and harder to leverage mobility.

<edit>
@ Ant Boogy:
Sounds like you fought a thief who was dumb enough to:

• Be surprised that a ranger had traps
• Not use a stunbreaker to escape from KD, etc.

</edit>

Actually it’s the perfect illustration. There has to be specs that are simple to play and still get some joy out of or the game dies quickly due to no new players. The fact that the thief is actually far better when played with the stabilizers off is good class design. Now rack up a load of experience on the thief and go back to warrior… bingo, thieves no longer a problem. You have Learned to Play so why is it you think it’s OK for the guy next to you dying to HS spam shouldn’t have to learn to play to stop it?

Faeyd.5094:

Actually it’s the perfect illustration. There has to be specs that are simple to play and still get some joy out of or the game dies quickly due to no new players. The fact that the thief is actually far better when played with the stabilizers off is good class design. Now rack up a load of experience on the thief and go back to warrior… bingo, thieves no longer a problem. You have Learned to Play so why is it you think it’s OK for the guy next to you dying to HS spam shouldn’t have to learn to play to stop it?

First, I disagree. Look at the Mesmer class. Go back in our threads from beta. People thought we were a horrible class, weak, hard to learn, etc.. Still, many of us chose mesmer as our first/main character and now look at that community.

Second, There is a difference between “simple to play” and “simple to be effective”.

Warrior is “simple to play”. However, a warrior can’t spam 1 button and continuously close on someone in melee. A Ranger is “simple to play”, but they can’t just spam 1 button to beat another noob.

The problem with the guy next to me having trouble with HS spam is that he is forced to get better to win. The noob doing noobseeker spam is not forced to get better to win. In fact, the guy dying to noobseeker spam may be the better noob, but still losing because they are at the noob level.

Sebrent.3625:

Faeyd.5094:

Actually it’s the perfect illustration. There has to be specs that are simple to play and still get some joy out of or the game dies quickly due to no new players. The fact that the thief is actually far better when played with the stabilizers off is good class design. Now rack up a load of experience on the thief and go back to warrior… bingo, thieves no longer a problem. You have Learned to Play so why is it you think it’s OK for the guy next to you dying to HS spam shouldn’t have to learn to play to stop it?

First, I disagree. Look at the Mesmer class. Go back in our threads from beta. People thought we were a horrible class, weak, hard to learn, etc.. Still, many of us chose mesmer as our first/main character and now look at that community.

Second, There is a difference between “simple to play” and “simple to be effective”.

Warrior is “simple to play”. However, a warrior can’t spam 1 button and continuously close on someone in melee. A Ranger is “simple to play”, but they can’t just spam 1 button to beat another noob.

The problem with the guy next to me having trouble with HS spam is that he is forced to get better to win. The noob doing noobseeker spam is not forced to get better to win. In fact, the guy dying to noobseeker spam may be the better noob, but still losing because they are at the noob level.

So the guy getting spammed gets better and the thief doesn’t. Win. You are evidence of this. Poor thief, not poor spamee. It’s why we all target thieves first… probably easiest to kill unless they are genuinely experienced.

And besides all classes have 5 buttons there… the difference is the gap closer but as the new player bangs all 5 buttons in sequence on their non thief toon they’ll soon gravitate to the one that roots/gap closes/snares/whatever the other guy in much the same way the thief repeats the gap closer.

Permit me to end the debate now though. You see it as a problem, I see it as an enabler for learning and also for new PvP players to actually be effective, but nowhere near as effective as an experienced player. I am waving at you from my side of chasm as we will not meet in the middle.

This thread should be closed.

It only demosntrated that Anet is very slow to react to balancing its product (3 and a half thousand replies on this thread and still no balance to the thief is made).

Even if they try and balance the class it is too late for the following:

1.The class has many OP features and I’m sure they will address one or two and the players will simply gravitate towards other OP builds because..well..the class is broken. Example: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Strike will not be fixed. You can drop it INSTANTLY and WITHOUT any indicator to where it is to anchor u in a spot like a mesmer, walk into a melee, and if the fight goes bad then use it to teleport you back INSTANTLY for more than 1800 range ..oh..and it breaks stun.. Good luck balancing stealth with things like that around..esport..wow..

2.As a consumer of a product, if a company demonstrates that it is too slow or incapable of addressing flaws in the product in a timely fashion, it is an indicator that it will repeat the same performance with other products, e.g. balancing ele, mesmer, guardian etc.

3.It is basically too late. By the time they are done with the thief class and start thinking about another class, other mmorpgs with a bigger fan base such as The Elder Scrolls Online will be out.

MMorpgs are not something new anymore and customers patience with imbalances is much less than before. Hope Elder scrolls doesn’t make the same mistake.

Sebrent.3625:

Faeyd.5094:

Actually it’s the perfect illustration. There has to be specs that are simple to play and still get some joy out of or the game dies quickly due to no new players. The fact that the thief is actually far better when played with the stabilizers off is good class design. Now rack up a load of experience on the thief and go back to warrior… bingo, thieves no longer a problem. You have Learned to Play so why is it you think it’s OK for the guy next to you dying to HS spam shouldn’t have to learn to play to stop it?

First, I disagree. Look at the Mesmer class. Go back in our threads from beta. People thought we were a horrible class, weak, hard to learn, etc.. Still, many of us chose mesmer as our first/main character and now look at that community.

Second, There is a difference between “simple to play” and “simple to be effective”.

Warrior is “simple to play”. However, a warrior can’t spam 1 button and continuously close on someone in melee. A Ranger is “simple to play”, but they can’t just spam 1 button to beat another noob.

The problem with the guy next to me having trouble with HS spam is that he is forced to get better to win. The noob doing noobseeker spam is not forced to get better to win. In fact, the guy dying to noobseeker spam may be the better noob, but still losing because they are at the noob level.

mesmer was since day one considered* an awful PvE class…..(dungeon weren t popular yet)

It still is.

After just a week mesmer was considered OP in PvP etc.
It still is.

(considered*….doesn t mean it is)…

XII.9401:

This thread should be closed.

It only demosntrated that Anet is very slow to react to balancing its product (3 and a half thousand replies on this thread and still no balance to the thief is made).

Even if they try and balance the class it is too late for the following:

1.The class has many OP features and I’m sure they will address one or two and the players will simply gravitate towards other OP builds because..well..the class is broken. Example: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Strike will not be fixed. You can drop it INSTANTLY and WITHOUT any indicator to where it is to anchor u in a spot like a mesmer, walk into a melee, and if the fight goes bad then use it to teleport you back INSTANTLY for more than 1800 range ..oh..and it breaks stun.. Good luck balancing stealth with things like that around..esport..wow..

2.As a consumer of a product, if a company demonstrates that it is too slow or incapable of addressing flaws in the product in a timely fashion, it is an indicator that it will repeat the same performance with other products, e.g. balancing ele, mesmer, guardian etc.

3.It is basically too late. By the time they are done with the thief class and start thinking about another class, other mmorpgs with a bigger fan base such as The Elder Scrolls Online will be out.

MMorpgs are not something new anymore and customers patience with imbalances is much less than before. Hope Elder scrolls doesn’t make the same mistake.

These kinds of posts are a real funny treat 8 months into the game release. No matter how many tutorials and weak spots we’re given OP shall remain OP !

What makes the thief OP ? It has been nerfed every single patch since launch and you still call it OP ? People without class knowledge will call it op everyone else who has abit of practice with it would call it squishy , lowhealth , great mobility and finally a class rendered useless with the upcomming changes to stealth. ANET is doing a great job the problem is the massive qq overflow forces their hand and they need to “please” the carebear central community or else people will be leaving.

Can’t wait for the next patch it’s either make or brake for many thief’s such as myself who invested wayyyy too much time and gear into it. So it’s basically a lose – lose situation either way for the game.

Who will want to continue playing with thief ? It’s basically nerf after nerf after nerf. At this rate would be probably best to just remove the class instead of bleeding it dry.

Sebrent.3625:

Hey Cynical, I’m well-aware of how toughness works. I’m also aware that Mesmers (light armor) are doing quite well in Knight’s armor … as I previously posted. Watch some of SevenMirror’s stuff.

There are also Engineers and Rangers that are wearing +toughness gear.

If you actually know what the differences are between light, medium, and heavy armor it’s a ~14% difference between light and heavy. ~7% difference between medium and heavy. So what’s the issue here? for every 100 damage you’d take, a warrior takes 93. 1,000 to you is 930 to the warrior. Oh no, he took 70 less damage than you. I guess that warrants you being stealth for a majority of the fight while he has to stay visible and dodge roll attacks from people that can actually see him, lol. Just like Rangers, Engineers, Necros, Elementalists, etc. do.

But yeah … If you could backstab a Thief for 10,000 damage, you’d only backstab the warrior in the same set of gear for 9,300. Lol! You sure told me! :-p

But you are forgetting base stats… as that poster mentioned. Sure, its only a 70 dmg difference to the dmg done… but not to the percent of reduction in health pool. For example, a warrior starts with a base health pool that is much… and I do mean much higher than a thief… Since a thief starts with the same health pool as a necro… So 1000 dmg to a thief is usually around 2% of their health pool (assuming a 20k health thief) where as a warrior build with the same vitality stat is only taking 1/2 of a percent of their health pool from that 930 dmg. When you add into the mix a warrior is able to heal as effectively if not more so than a thief… well, that 70 dmg difference becomes a MAJOR difference.

Columba.9730:

Why aren’t thieves in WvWvW balanced as they are in Spvp? It makes no sense that they are much more powerful in WvWvW and can abuse the culling bug to permastealth.

See, Most thieves actually welcome the fix to culling.. there is a reason for that… IT ISNT A THIEF ABILITY!!!! Please grasp that fact before moaning about perma stealth from culling. If you want to moan about an actual ability that a thief can put on their ability bars… fine but make a logical argument… but please… just because Anet has an issue that they implemented to save on their own servers… don’t blame the thief player.
As for your signature quote… Thieves don’t complain that people upset their god mode with nerfs… on the contrary… people complain that thieves are in god mode because they haven’t learned to deal with the thief.

Sebrent.3625:

Faeyd.5094:

Actually it’s the perfect illustration. There has to be specs that are simple to play and still get some joy out of or the game dies quickly due to no new players. The fact that the thief is actually far better when played with the stabilizers off is good class design. Now rack up a load of experience on the thief and go back to warrior… bingo, thieves no longer a problem. You have Learned to Play so why is it you think it’s OK for the guy next to you dying to HS spam shouldn’t have to learn to play to stop it?

First, I disagree. Look at the Mesmer class. Go back in our threads from beta. People thought we were a horrible class, weak, hard to learn, etc.. Still, many of us chose mesmer as our first/main character and now look at that community.

Second, There is a difference between “simple to play” and “simple to be effective”.

Warrior is “simple to play”. However, a warrior can’t spam 1 button and continuously close on someone in melee. A Ranger is “simple to play”, but they can’t just spam 1 button to beat another noob.

The problem with the guy next to me having trouble with HS spam is that he is forced to get better to win. The noob doing noobseeker spam is not forced to get better to win. In fact, the guy dying to noobseeker spam may be the better noob, but still losing because they are at the noob level.

Have to seriously disagree with your last statement… the Noob would then be forced to learn to get better. For example… in a chess game, player 1 uses the same 6 move check mate over and over… player 2 must learn to counter that move. Once player 2 learns to counter that move, player 1 must learn a new strategy or constantly lose to player 2. In this case, the player forced to get better to win against HS will start winning against the noob using heartseeker… thus the noob will need to learn new strategies to compete against the new learned skills of the player.

Ruggan.4102:

For example… in a chess game, player 1 uses the same 6 move check mate over and over… player 2 must learn to counter that move. Once player 2 learns to counter that move, player 1 must learn a new strategy or constantly lose to player 2.

Because we all know and it’s a public knowledge that if a thief who plays chess didn’t win after the sixth turn 6 doing the same over and over and over again his head explodes and his opponent automatically win…

I’m not very good at english but i’m pretty good at logic and this made me laugh so hard… don’t try to justify the unjustifiable,

Oh… and in a chess game the thief would run away before loosing,

i feel like thief is the “duelist” class, since many of the skills in it are to trade damage while evading incoming damage.

We can roam much more efficiently then other classes thanks too high mobility.

Basically the “assassin” aspect is clearly gone, since bursting someone down quickly is dwindling, but at least we have the “duelist” aspect, where we can control damage to our favor.

Okay looks like the QQ is returning so I’m gonna bump this old boy back on top.

well the gameplay WAS amazing until you nerfed stealth to 4s. Now it just isn’t smooth or natural feeling. Disappointing that we have to deal with it until it gets reverted (pve point of view here).

A concrete note:
Pistol Main Hand skill #1: Vital Shot
This skill has a ‘cast time’ listed as 1/2 second, but is actually significantly longer (0.74 sec by some accounts).

For comparison the very similar Ranger Shortbow skill Crossfire ends up having a much faster rate of fire, and since it has identical direct damage ends up doing far more damage. This is on top of the fact that (we are assuming) Ranger skills are balanced to be ~60% of their damage output since they have a pet.

Well I haven’t read any of this. All I know is that for some odd reason from BW1 to present thieves are still the only profession I cant counter……hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Rainbow.3496:

Aberrant.6749:

Svarty.8019:

Aberrant.6749:

See… I took that more as them all thinking “they just need to l2p against these classes then… why would we balance for such low skill level gameplay?”

To which I would reply that they should balance for such low skill level gameplay because the thieves themselves can be more effective than most other classes with less skill.

EDIT: In fact, the devs say as much right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0togRMEc_o#t=41m06s

What you’re complaining about is basically that not all classes have the same initial learning curve.

This is actually done on purpose to help new players feel like they can hop in a game and have a chance. Complaining about this is like some one complaining about how e-hondas 100h slap or an auto-shotgun in CS just owned them. They are just FOO tatics. Once you learn how to counter these tatics they are easy to deal with.

The guy even says something akin to as a vet this isn’t a problem for me… it’s only new players that have this problem. I also don’t have problems with thieves ganking me from spawn in PvP on any of my classes… because I know how to counter it easily. It didn’t take me long to figure out how either. I could explain the tatics used to counter the thief on the classes I play to the noob to help the person he’s talking about and the noob could pratice with those.

Many other classes have better higher skill gameplay potential than the thief. That’s the downside of foos. That’s why it’s rare you see a thief in a pro team. Same with why you don’t see a vet playing with e-honda or an auto-shotty… there are more powerful tactics available if you choose to practice and learn them.

So the solution? L2P better with your class and you’ll be just fine.

I hope you’ve learned a little bit about game design basics as well ^^

Amen…. I think we can all remember starting out the game and trying to get our legendaries by doing the WvW puzzles. And then your whole party is wiped by one thief. The easiest response , “THIEVES OP”…. The obvious problem with the thief is the argument of “L2P”. I actually recall the same discussion over my class (warrior) and the whole hundred blades issue. Everyone QQs over something because they always die by it and deem it “Op”. After playing for several hundred hours, I’ve realized that thief isn’t OP. it really isn’t even a problem for people that know what they are doing .Anet shouldn’t nerf and dumb down a class just because people whine. Learn to fight the class and then you’ll be fine. If you think thief is SO hard to play against. Go duel your thief friends, take tips, get better. It’s an obvious solution. Don’t ruin the game for all our thief friends just cause you can’t handle it. New players get smashed by thieves , and the vets have no issue and can handle and dismiss it quickly. I wish everyone would understand this.

Thief class is already smashed. Don’t know where you’re going with this.

Svarty.8019:

To which I would reply that they should balance for such low skill level gameplay because the thieves themselves can be more effective than most other classes with less skill.

EDIT: In fact, the devs say as much right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0togRMEc_o#t=41m06s

Editing in a TL:DR – Just because the thief class occupies the lowest tier of play doesn’t mean it takes less skill to play, it just means it doesn’t have a good high tier meta that makes them a viable choice like the elementalist does in the devs example. That’s a problem. Can’t survive on just being able to two/three shot people who don’t invest in toughness and vitality.

That’s not what he said. Nothing he said really suggest that thieves take less skill to play effective, really just that thieves are more effective against unskilled players and stay in the lower tiers of PvP.

What he said represents the fundamental problem with this game right now. There is no high tier meta for thieves like there is for elementalist. Thieves fall off at the top because, surprise, there are classes that just do what we can do better.

World of Warcraft had the Warrior/Druid combo. They dominated the lower tier arena ratings, but once you broke out into the 1800s, it was no longer a viable option. Starcraft 2 had mass mutalisk/roach rushes that dominated the mid level of play, but once you got to the higher tier of play, that strategy no longer worked and you had to try new compositions.

That doesn’t mean any of the things I mentioned above are easy, or take less skill to pull off, it means that they are only viable against unskilled players. Every single time I hear someone cry about getting two shotted by a thief it makes me laugh. There are really three conditions to get ‘two shot’ by a thief.

1) You have no vitality/toughness (You are a glass cannon)
2) You are upleveled like crazy.
3) You are at low health already and you aren’t really being two shot.

That’s it. That one style of play, mug + CD + backstab (Which is three hits by the way) works on people that meet the above conditions. The variations of this, the haste pistol whip combo or haste heartseeker spam, only work on a stupidly small portion of the actual playerbase in this game.

Warriors, Mesmers, and elementalist have the ability to do the same exact thing as a thief. Warriors with the stun utility can thousand blade a stunned target for all of his heath. Mesmers can pop mass clones, shatter them for confusion, and throw on their sword two for invulnerability. Elementalist have their own burst combo that might require more buttons, but pays off to be more effective in that it can hit more than one person like the warrior and mesmer but unlike the thief.

Once people figure out, duh I need health and toughness hurr hurr, these tactics are useless. Then you’re just a melee class, with one of the lowest healthpools in the game, in medium armor, sacrificing damage to get your health to a point that is still -lower- than where clothies are and armor to no where near what a warrior or guardian has.

Lemmie tell you, at this point it’s starting to feel like we gotta work really hard to accomplish the same thing as other professions.

So it really is no surprise to see a lot of people just stop playing thieves in favor of other classes at higher tiers.

If thieves were easy to play and had some real viable builds, they’d dominate the higher tier of PvP. That’s not happening though. The thief is just a gimmick class. Watch the video of the guy fighting ‘outnumbered’ with his thief. He does a lot of shanking upleveled players and murdering people who seem completely unaware of his presence. More a gimmick than a class these days.

Personally, I believe they should rework the thief so their class mechanic to include stealth. Never understood why their class mechanic revolved solely around ‘steals a skill’ (which doesn’t make any sense).

As such I would suggest removing all stealth aspects from weapon/utility.

Then give the Thief a new F1-F3. Keep ‘Steal’ on F1 but add an F2-F3 that would change depending on the slotted weapons. For instance C&D being on F3 if an offhand dagger is equipped.

Natually new skills and utilities would need to be introduced to fill the gaps. But I don’t see a problem there.

At present time there are just too many variations on stealth with too great a focus on it through traits while having less variation on the rest. Even the traits seem to reflect ANet’s lack of creativity when they created the class ‘when in doubt, add (stuff to) stealth’. Imagine all those useless trait lines where you wished you had a trait for a certain build but you don’t because it’s all revolving around adding more and more pitifully small benefits to stealth. As far as I know there are like 12 traits that all revolve around stealth. I don’t recall any other class having such a heavy (forced) investment in something that apparently isn’t even considered their actual class-mechanic.

As such I think it would be more beneficial to rework stealth into an actual class-mechanic for the F-keys which might lend itself better to creative counterplay scenarios.

But then we have the ‘we need stealth to survive’ mentality; when in reality you don’t. Those people just got lured into a false sense of security (just as those that think stealth = invulnerable). With increased mobility (and proposed changes by ANet to improve on that even more); you’re looking at a true assassin who can get in under cover of stealth for a period of time and get out before people realize he was there (in theory). Applying stealth every time a Thief sneezes is just a crutch that people lean on because old habit has come to accept that disability in my humble opinion.

Helcor.9527:

Well I haven’t read any of this. All I know is that for some odd reason from BW1 to present thieves are still the only profession I cant counter……hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Maybe you’re not as good as you think you are.

To be honest, I don’t main a thief. I thoroughly enjoy the class, but my heart lies with the warrior. I’m tired of all of these players complaining about how “OP” thieves are after they get 3-shotted by an experienced glass cannon D/D backstab thief. Back about a month after release I got tired of being ganked by thieves so I changed my build a bit to include longbow so that I had some AoE to lean on in the case that a thief decided to Mug + CnD + Backstab me. I created my own little bubble in the meta to counter a single build, and I think that’s one thing in GW2 that’s really missing. Thieves are fine where they are. The 4-second reveal doesn’t affect my rotations on my thief at all in PvE. The only thing I can complain about are the new stealth mechanics where ranged mobs will continue to shoot you after you’ve stealthed.

Going back to the people complaining about not being able to counter thieves, do what I did. Change your build. Create a shift in the meta just like what happened in GW1 when a build was dominating in the GvG arenas. Personally, since I’ve switched to longbow it’s now common for me to swap to my longbow when a thief stealths, use healing surge to fill my adrenaline if I’m not able to use my burst and then lay down a smoldering arrow at my feet. If a thief decides to backstab me they’ll have to stand in fire gaining stacks of burning, which they can’t remove because they’ve already used HiS to stealth for a longer duration. It’s sickening to see people attempt the same things over and over to try to counter thieves expecting a different result. Madness I tell you.

So, in all my experiences playing a thief and some other classes ( I got 2 thiefs, guardian, mesmer and an engineer 80), I think the thief is basically flawed in its design.

To start off we have the lowest HP and medium armor with the premise that we should survive with stealth and dodging, and this have some really big flaws.
1 – We dont really have much more dodges than other classes unless we actually build for it. Rangers/Eles/Guardians have easier access to vigor/end regen than thieves. To have more dodges we actually have to trait for it (getting vigor on heal/bountiful theft and feline grace), take some dodging utilities/heal or spend our initiative in death blossom (who only does dmg if you’re cond plus its expensive) or flanking strike (which is clunky as hell and has a super small invulnerability window).
2 – While you’re dodging, you dont do damage, which makes dodge effectively worse than simply mitigating dmg by another ways.

Now I dont wanna go too deep on stealth problems, it IS a strong tool, but more on the annoying than the strong side. Stealth is annoying to deal with and not totally reliable and a defensive mechanism, dont get me wrong, I love playing the stealthy character but I have to admit how annoying it is for the other players (specially non-competitive ones)

As a good example, when I try to farm some trolls or skelks with my magic find gear both on my thief and guardian, the results are:
Guardian – I facetank 3 – 5 mobs dealing dmg the whole time
Thief – I either kite and kill slow with SB or facetank inside a blackpowder and still do less dmg than my guardian (that is with sword, killing groups of 3)

Side note: Black powder too strong, headshot too weak

Our condition builds are subpar in tpvp, at least in my opinion and we’re limited to power burst because trying to build for attrition fights is kinda suicidal, you either are too squishy or wont do much dmg to be really useful.

If I had to propose changes, they would be:

1 – If we´re supposed to be “De-bunkers”, I think boon-rip and easier access to poison would be the answer instead of burst, I know dagger combo applies poison but you cant affort to stay melee doing your combo for too long with our current defenses.

2 – Tone down the burst and give us more survivability, make thieves work for their dmg. Both sword and dagger are really good weapons for gap-closing and generally being sticky, let us stay alive and do our dmg a little slower to allow some counterplay for our opponents and consequently us too.

3 – Thieves rely too much on their weapon sets (moreso than other classes), Id love to see a 5Cd on swap like warriors get, it increases our skill cap since we’re limited by initiative and fits the profession, imo. ( The 3 initiative on swap from acro 30 will need some tone down tho)

4 – Please give us some QoL changes on flanking strike, headshot and pistol whip, our resource is precious and we need good reasons to spend it.

5 – Id say make stealth a lot more situational and give us decent survivability mechanisms. Fighting a thief that stealths every 3 – 4s isnt cool at all. Needing to stealth every 3 – 4s to stay alive isnt cool too, imo. (Some might like it tho)

6 – Some love to our ranged options please, unload isnt that strong and man thats a boring skill to use. Its cool the first 4 or 5 times but try to use an unload build for long and you’ll probably end up sleeping in your keyboard. Id like to see some less-boring ranged dmg options. (Shortbow is awesome for its mobility, but the damage is lackluster)

tl:dr is: Bad defensive mechanisms, extremely annoying and strong vs medium-low skill players but downright impractical against good ones, and still annoying. lol

…
Can you guys please revert the 4 second reveal?
I don’t even log into my thief anymore just because of this, I used to love doing WvW and PvP on my thief but now I’ll use my mesmer, engi or guardian.
I don’t find anything else wrong with the class, but seriously stealth is NEEDED as a thief.
I have a legendary on my thief and it’s pretty lame that it’s basically going to waste, if you guys are gonna keep nerfing classes can you at least make legendaries account bound so peoples hard work doesn’t go to waste.

Also you guys should swap out the 4 traps we have and replace them with more useful utilities, such as maybe a ‘dash forward’ type skill. Like, dash forward and attack something, much like Bulls Rush for warrior, minus the CC. Or maybe a skill that grants fury and vigor, call it ‘survival instinct’ or something. Either way just please do something with traps, as of right now they’re a waste of 4 utility slots.

Aveneo.2068:

Personally, I believe they should rework the thief so their class mechanic to include stealth. Never understood why their class mechanic revolved solely around ‘steals a skill’ (which doesn’t make any sense).

As such I would suggest removing all stealth aspects from weapon/utility.

Then give the Thief a new F1-F3. Keep ‘Steal’ on F1 but add an F2-F3 that would change depending on the slotted weapons. For instance C&D being on F3 if an offhand dagger is equipped.

Natually new skills and utilities would need to be introduced to fill the gaps. But I don’t see a problem there.

At present time there are just too many variations on stealth with too great a focus on it through traits while having less variation on the rest. Even the traits seem to reflect ANet’s lack of creativity when they created the class ‘when in doubt, add (stuff to) stealth’. Imagine all those useless trait lines where you wished you had a trait for a certain build but you don’t because it’s all revolving around adding more and more pitifully small benefits to stealth. As far as I know there are like 12 traits that all revolve around stealth. I don’t recall any other class having such a heavy (forced) investment in something that apparently isn’t even considered their actual class-mechanic.

As such I think it would be more beneficial to rework stealth into an actual class-mechanic for the F-keys which might lend itself better to creative counterplay scenarios.

But then we have the ‘we need stealth to survive’ mentality; when in reality you don’t. Those people just got lured into a false sense of security (just as those that think stealth = invulnerable). With increased mobility (and proposed changes by ANet to improve on that even more); you’re looking at a true assassin who can get in under cover of stealth for a period of time and get out before people realize he was there (in theory). Applying stealth every time a Thief sneezes is just a crutch that people lean on because old habit has come to accept that disability in my humble opinion.

What you say makes perfect sense. As the thief is designed, however, a stealth build IS needed in order to survive. With the changes you suggest, I would hope the thief would then have a Hit Point Base higher than a necro (which it is currently tied with), a damage base on par at least with Ranger (who with pet can deal considerable more dmg than a thief who isn’t full glass cannon)… and I can say that because every single patch has reduced the thief damage output by 33% or greater on at least 1 ability.

Ruggan.4102:

What you say makes perfect sense. As the thief is designed, however, a stealth build IS needed in order to survive. With the changes you suggest, I would hope the thief would then have a Hit Point Base higher than a necro (which it is currently tied with), a damage base on par at least with Ranger (who with pet can deal considerable more dmg than a thief who isn’t full glass cannon)… and I can say that because every single patch has reduced the thief damage output by 33% or greater on at least 1 ability.

Well, ofcourse. After my proposed rework they would have to review the class from a balance perspective. That might mean more base-health, some more front-load damage on certain abilities etc. etc.

I mean, the Thief (I prefer the term Assassin though) should be a competitive class that can stand on its own given a scenario without being dragged down by stealth as if it’s their ball-and-chain.

So I offer a potential base where ANet can work from in order to turn the Thief class from something that behaves like a crippled old man relying on his cane into something truly enjoyable and dynamic for everyone.

I still think it is funny that our best ranged weapon, the shortbow, also happens to be the only weapon that does not benefit for dual wield traits or have a dual wield ability since, hurr hurr, it’s a single weapon.

I feel like that sums up the amount of thought that went into the thief profession.

Hi all guys,
sorry for my bad english :P

I often read that you think that thieves are OP. I hated and i hate mesmer with their clones make me crazy but to learn to distinguish between them and learn their game I created a mesmer and I played a little bit.

Before you say that a class is OP or not I think it is necessary to know the limits and abilities.

Yesterday i tried to play Cannon Glass build for thief. Uaoo it’s Amazing. But when i attacked a Guardian it was not so Amazing. Every class and every build have situations where are OP and others in which they are weak.

Ruggan.4102:

[snip]
With the changes you suggest, I would hope the thief would then have a Hit Point Base higher than a necro (which it is currently tied with)
[snip]

Necromancers actually have the highest hp, along with Warriors. (base 18k at 80)
Rangers, Engineers and Mesmers have the medium HP. (base 15k at 80)
Thief shares its lowest HP with Elementalist and Guardian (base 10k at 80)

The thing is, Guardians wear heavy with a ton of defensive/heals, and Eles are far more mobile and ranged, as well as having access to some tanking skills. Thus in terms of survivability, Thief falls on the bottom.

My guess as to how ANet wants us to play Thief:
Do quick bursts of damage, then avoid/evade/stealth from enemy and then burst again.

It’s great in theory, but it fails miserably in PvE where the burst is mediocre at best, and where taking on large mobs is common (yet extremely hard with any stealth builds)

In PvP/WvW, where doing damage to one target is significantly more important, the Thief can do allright, if played exactly as ANet wants it to be.

I see very little other viable options for a Thief build – no amount of points invested in Defense and Vitality would make the thief significantly more survivable – and even if they do, without a glass cannon build, the Thief’s damage output in those builds is laughable.

ZenonSeth.5739:

Ruggan.4102:

[snip]
With the changes you suggest, I would hope the thief would then have a Hit Point Base higher than a necro (which it is currently tied with)
[snip]

Necromancers actually have the highest hp, along with Warriors. (base 18k at 80)
Rangers, Engineers and Mesmers have the medium HP. (base 15k at 80)
Thief shares its lowest HP with Elementalist and Guardian (base 10k at 80)

The thing is, Guardians wear heavy with a ton of defensive/heals, and Eles are far more mobile and ranged, as well as having access to some tanking skills. Thus in terms of survivability, Thief falls on the bottom.

My guess as to how ANet wants us to play Thief:
Do quick bursts of damage, then avoid/evade/stealth from enemy and then burst again.

It’s great in theory, but it fails miserably in PvE where the burst is mediocre at best, and where taking on large mobs is common (yet extremely hard with any stealth builds)

In PvP/WvW, where doing damage to one target is significantly more important, the Thief can do allright, if played exactly as ANet wants it to be.

I see very little other viable options for a Thief build – no amount of points invested in Defense and Vitality would make the thief significantly more survivable – and even if they do, without a glass cannon build, the Thief’s damage output in those builds is laughable.

That was a typo I did actually mean to type ele not necro.

Pistols could use a definite rework. I use them cause I want to and they look cool, but it is so pointless. They have no defense almost and don’t really do anything. So they’re only benefit is range basically and mass blind from skill#5 and unload. but that’s it I feel. Need more of incentive to not go sword/pistol, dag/dag, and secondary with shortbow. Right now they are the only class to be balanced in the trinity mindset, in that they only have one role. Not die and spike someone down when they’re basically dead anyway.

Aberrant.6749:

Svarty.8019:

I saw this and lolled. Unbelievably the devs actually try to justify the thief: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCUvIrH2BlU#t=1h28s
That stunned silence at 1h 2m 19s made me laugh my kitten off.

See… I took that more as them all thinking “they just need to l2p against these classes then… why would we balance for such low skill level gameplay?”

playandchill.3908:

When i want to own someone in WvV,

I log my thief.

Most absurd burst in the game (if you know how to precast c/d)

Once you get better at other classes you can own WvW-ers on many more classes than just thief. I do it equally as well on all 4 of my 80’s. On my guard I pre-cast RoW to trap them then rotflstomp which is a lot of fun. It’s just different playstyles/tatics.

I just get the feeling they made a huge mistake with the thief class and are unable to fix it without overhauling the whole class. Always the best defense to doing a bad class balance is to tell the customers to deal with it=l2p then working on super adventure box. That always goes down well..into pushing pvpers to other games.

XII.9401:

I just get the feeling they made a huge mistake with the thief class and are unable to fix it without overhauling the whole class. Always the best defense to doing a bad class balance is to tell the customers to deal with it=l2p then working on super adventure box. That always goes down well..into pushing pvpers to other games.

The dev’s sounded like they did want to do a pretty large shift in thief gameplay in the last state of the game.

(I’m paraphrasing) Thief needs to have more ways of staying in the fight… only THEN can the damage can be lowered, but the damage will still be high (which sounds like a lot more play/fun for me and my opponent imo).

They also agreed that the thief needs to be able to reliably apply more conditions in cond specs.

I can’t wait ^^

Thief is just so very one trick pony as it is atm. Lower skilled players will keep dying to the one trick that thief is built for (and complain) and the more skilled players will easily counter it. It’s just too predictable… to the point where in a thief vs. thief fight you’ll often see one thief c&d off of the other while he’s still stealthed.

When on another class I can easily use that high predictability against them. I have SO many more options with how I wish to act/react on all my other characters and my opponent has far less of an idea to what will come next. They also have better options for team support/tactics than my thief. I hope thieves are changed to where they are more flexible with their abilities in the future as well.

Also… the people in charge of balance aren’t also the same people making events. They are two totally different teams. One team doesn’t go over to the other and say “Hey… we’re having problems with X… QUICK! Put out an event!” lol These events take a lot of time to put together and it’s not reasonable to assume they are at all related.

i think that most players think that if a thief stealths, he becomes invincible

so much for having a high IQ population…
sad we must carry the nerf burden each patch :/

DanH.5879:

i think that most players think that if a thief stealths, he becomes invincible

so much for having a high IQ population…
sad we must carry the nerf burden each patch :/

Just do what I do, re-roll and come back when Anet finally figures it out. If you love playing a thief, pick up Deus-Ex Human Revolution or Dishonored. Return when A-net finally gets their class balance right.

From the perspective of someone who mainly plays PvE with a little WvW/PvP on the side:

PVP thief I think is balanced as-is. PVE on the other hand, needs stealth moved back a few patches. The 4 second revealed completely breaks any hope of a combo and the fluidity the thief used to have. P/D just feels broken now.

I’m sure this has been said way too many times, but this is what I believe.

DanH.5879:

i think that most players think that if a thief stealths, he becomes invincible

so much for having a high IQ population…
sad we must carry the nerf burden each patch :/

I haven’t seen anyone claim invisibility = invincibility and I sincerely doubt you have either. If you really think that’s what people are arguing then I’d suggest being careful about whose intelligence you start questioning, glass houses and all that.

What you have seen is people complain about stealth’s ability to enable quick and easy escape from the consequences of losing a battle. You can hit a stealthed character with AOE, but you still need to have an AOE attack not on cooldown, at least have a rough idea where they are, and they also need to be in range assuming you’ve correctly guessed where they’ve gone. Suddenly we have less reliance on skill and more of a 1 in 5 chance of even damaging them (assuming you simplify your options to: the thief went/is [forward/back/left/right/on top of me]).

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to be able to play WvW knowing that if I’m about to lose I can choose to leave and head for the hills, but given my frustrations at facing those tactics I wouldn’t feel right about using them so I don’t just roll a thief.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure its not as easy as it looks (I certainly hope not) there’s little doubt that you need a degree of skill and practice to be able to reliably disengage from any and every fight, but it doesn’t change the fact that other classes have to resign themselves to the fact that sometimes you get outskilled or make a mistake and there’s no way to escape being downed and stomped.

Personally I find there is a lack of variety in weapon skills/sets compared to other classes at the moment; underwater even more so – I can’t stand underwater combat as a thief.

Utilities, elites and traits are all fun to use/spec, with options for great mobility and stealth. But I really don’t like any of the main weapons and their skills.

Considering deleting my thief (first character from 3 day headstart), because of the weapons(or lack of weapons) available.

randomfightfan.4091:

well the gameplay WAS amazing until you nerfed stealth to 4s. Now it just isn’t smooth or natural feeling. Disappointing that we have to deal with it until it gets reverted (pve point of view here).

//sign

Well I’ve shelved/stasised my thief – all gear and money transferred to my mesmer. Only thing he has now are the town clothes, living like a beggar in lion’s arch! :p

He’ll stay like that until we get some new land and underwater weapons and 1-5 skills – that’s the only thing keeping me from deleting him, the prospect of either a two-handed melee weapon, an offhand sword, or something else. So that might be a while…

Curunen.8729:

Well I’ve shelved/stasised my thief – all gear and money transferred to my mesmer. Only thing he has now are the town clothes, living like a beggar in lion’s arch! :p

He’ll stay like that until we get some new land and underwater weapons and 1-5 skills – that’s the only thing keeping me from deleting him, the prospect of either a two-handed melee weapon, an offhand sword, or something else. So that might be a while…

Why do you even bother saying that.

^Why do you bother replying? It’s personal feedback – I want to enjoy this class, but don’t because of the weapon sets.

I feel that the most powerful aspect of the thief profession should be the initiative system. The ability to use skills as needed to respond to another player to create a high skill cap and where your aptitude with the profession depends on how well you predict/react to another player and well you manage your initiative. Unfortunately the current weapon skills available to the thief don’t really support this, or are too clunky to be used effectively.

Infiltrators strike sort of achieves this where you can set up a shadow return if dealing with a shatter mesmer for example to avoid the burst damage. Due to the way skills queue though, often many evade skills wont go off quickly enough to avoid the damage, rendering them useless.

Providing a melee weapon with a short duration block skill, such as the spear gives, could enable thieves to be much more resilient when dealing with dungeon bosses as well.

Aberrant.6749:

XII.9401:

I just get the feeling they made a huge mistake with the thief class and are unable to fix it without overhauling the whole class. Always the best defense to doing a bad class balance is to tell the customers to deal with it=l2p then working on super adventure box. That always goes down well..into pushing pvpers to other games.

The dev’s sounded like they did want to do a pretty large shift in thief gameplay in the last state of the game.

(I’m paraphrasing) Thief needs to have more ways of staying in the fight… only THEN can the damage can be lowered, but the damage will still be high (which sounds like a lot more play/fun for me and my opponent imo).

They also agreed that the thief needs to be able to reliably apply more conditions in cond specs.

I can’t wait ^^

Thief is just so very one trick pony as it is atm. Lower skilled players will keep dying to the one trick that thief is built for (and complain) and the more skilled players will easily counter it. It’s just too predictable… to the point where in a thief vs. thief fight you’ll often see one thief c&d off of the other while he’s still stealthed.

When on another class I can easily use that high predictability against them. I have SO many more options with how I wish to act/react on all my other characters and my opponent has far less of an idea to what will come next. They also have better options for team support/tactics than my thief. I hope thieves are changed to where they are more flexible with their abilities in the future as well.

Also… the people in charge of balance aren’t also the same people making events. They are two totally different teams. One team doesn’t go over to the other and say “Hey… we’re having problems with X… QUICK! Put out an event!” lol These events take a lot of time to put together and it’s not reasonable to assume they are at all related.

What one trick poney?

-Weapon skills with no cooldowns

-Multiple teleport hacks (shadowsteps) with NO range on returning or marking of where the shadowstep got anchored.
Repeated stealth.

-Being able to use abilities, Revive, finish AND attack while still remaining stealthed (pistol 5: Black powder then spam Heartseaker 3-4 times and STILL stay stealthed! Just..wow..)

-Instant group stealth. Have you ever seen a thief drop it before they die? They get downed while stealthed and keep teleporting arounf for 15 seconds. So you have to run around smacking the air for 15 seconds: whack whack whack whack whack whack -get the picture?- hoping they don’t revive without you killing them thus COMPLETELY bypassing the finishing system..nice..

-And the biggest advantage of all..completely bypassing the dodge system which is essential for the pvp. Can’t dodge what you can’t see.
As for the less skilled comment which is a veiled attempt at telling someone to L2P..have you ever played against a skilled player who utilizes the broken mechanics of a sword thief? Skill has nothing to do with it.

Next thing we will be saying a server should be able to grab the orb from a hacking player..Oh wait..they can’t and they it got removed from the game .

The fix is very simple..Thieves getting attack should be revealed. Like every other game in the multiverse. It was a grave oversight and should be corrected.

XII.9401:

Aberrant.6749:

XII.9401:

I just get the feeling they made a huge mistake with the thief class and are unable to fix it without overhauling the whole class. Always the best defense to doing a bad class balance is to tell the customers to deal with it=l2p then working on super adventure box. That always goes down well..into pushing pvpers to other games.

The dev’s sounded like they did want to do a pretty large shift in thief gameplay in the last state of the game.

(I’m paraphrasing) Thief needs to have more ways of staying in the fight… only THEN can the damage can be lowered, but the damage will still be high (which sounds like a lot more play/fun for me and my opponent imo).

They also agreed that the thief needs to be able to reliably apply more conditions in cond specs.

I can’t wait ^^

Thief is just so very one trick pony as it is atm. Lower skilled players will keep dying to the one trick that thief is built for (and complain) and the more skilled players will easily counter it. It’s just too predictable… to the point where in a thief vs. thief fight you’ll often see one thief c&d off of the other while he’s still stealthed.

When on another class I can easily use that high predictability against them. I have SO many more options with how I wish to act/react on all my other characters and my opponent has far less of an idea to what will come next. They also have better options for team support/tactics than my thief. I hope thieves are changed to where they are more flexible with their abilities in the future as well.

Also… the people in charge of balance aren’t also the same people making events. They are two totally different teams. One team doesn’t go over to the other and say “Hey… we’re having problems with X… QUICK! Put out an event!” lol These events take a lot of time to put together and it’s not reasonable to assume they are at all related.

What one trick poney?

-Weapon skills with no cooldowns

-Multiple teleport hacks (shadowsteps) with NO range on returning or marking of where the shadowstep got anchored.
Repeated stealth.

-Being able to use abilities, Revive, finish AND attack while still remaining stealthed (pistol 5: Black powder then spam Heartseaker 3-4 times and STILL stay stealthed! Just..wow..)

-Instant group stealth. Have you ever seen a thief drop it before they die? They get downed while stealthed and keep teleporting arounf for 15 seconds. So you have to run around smacking the air for 15 seconds: whack whack whack whack whack whack -get the picture?- hoping they don’t revive without you killing them thus COMPLETELY bypassing the finishing system..nice..

-And the biggest advantage of all..completely bypassing the dodge system which is essential for the pvp. Can’t dodge what you can’t see.
As for the less skilled comment which is a veiled attempt at telling someone to L2P..have you ever played against a skilled player who utilizes the broken mechanics of a sword thief? Skill has nothing to do with it.

Next thing we will be saying a server should be able to grab the orb from a hacking player..Oh wait..they can’t and they it got removed from the game .

The fix is very simple..Thieves getting attack should be revealed. Like every other game in the multiverse. It was a grave oversight and should be corrected.

In that case, why not make all boons get removed when you get hit? Same thing right? No defense should last when you get attacked.