Guild Wars 2

The problem is that when they stealth they can just pop a lot of damage, they can insta kill you and you dont know what happened at all, so stealth shoul have longer cooldown to re stealth, that and the damage needs a nerf, its not balanced to be killed in 2 seconds by someone that you dont even noticed and dont have any type of counter to this, i played a rougue in WOW, and in there you couldnt do that because IT IS overpowered, even if in that game you can be in stealth indefinitely, you cant burst to death someone, its not possible because it is overpowered, and when you are out of stealth you can not re stealth again while in combat only using a cool down would let you to re stealth, and if for some reason you get hit you get out of stealth , in this game you can stealth at any time in combat, you can burst to death someone, you can not be taken out from stealth if you get hit, so in fact the mechanics are not really balanced.

Invisibility doesn’t offer a massive, massive advantage in a fight. Nope, not at all.

Enmity.3428:

Invisibility doesn’t offer a massive, massive advantage in a fight. Nope, not at all.

I agree its simply annoying.

Zelulose.8695:

Enmity.3428:

Invisibility doesn’t offer a massive, massive advantage in a fight. Nope, not at all.

I agree its simply annoying.

Actually, I was being sarcastic. Of course it offers a massive bloody advantage in a fight.

And yeah, it is annoying too.

Mrbig.8019:

Med.6150:

Stealth is definitely overpowered. It’s not invincibility, but it allows you to potentially be anywhere on the map seen from the perspective of your opponent.

Stealth allows you to regroup after a lost team fight and negate the other team the ability to scout and intercept, slow you down or apply pressure to you. Stealth also gives you the ability to initiate a fight and thus gain the upper hand, because your opponent can not guard both of their nodes with equal numbers.

For many this is accepted counterplay to a very strong position the winner of a team fight will usually find themselves in (being able to scout and react to an attack immediately or slow the enemy down from elevated positions while they are moving towards a node is very strong on many maps quite frankly).

However, being able to totally subtract yourself from the map and coordinate a full burst out of stealth is just beyond strong. We have a ton of abilities that deal instant damage and can be executed within half a second by multiple people. Mathematically right now 3 DPS classes can kill any target in GW2 before they can react (2 is usually enough for any target we see in tournaments). That’s why we are seeing more and more groups using stealth openers.

Now in my opinion stealth is important for some classes. For thieves and mesmers (less so imo) it is a defensive mechanic, that should not simply be taken away, especially in tpvp. Stealth becomes overpowered when it can be maintained for long periods of time (Shadow Refuge) or even permanently (smoke field + blast finishers). Stealth is also overpowered as an out of combat mechanic.

I would welcome two changes to stealth, but I’d already be grateful for one of them to be implemented, as I am not greedy:

1. Stealth can not be stacked

2. Stealth only works, if you’re in combat

PS: I play thief mainly.

the only really OP skill a thief has regarding stealth is shadow refuge.

Remove it and we’ll be happy.

My main is a thief and i agree SR is really OP, and one of the main reason why thieves are brought in high end tPvP: stealth assaults from the whole team are OP as kitten.

Yeah, SR is soo OP. Because, you can’t AoE into it, at all. If you could thief would just run out of it and lose stealth that would be cool. Or the thief would have to use a util like shadowstep to get away. Either way he would get revealed.

Sucks you can’t force the thief to leave his SR or just kill them in it.

EDIT: To the quote of the quote. R.I.P d/p.

Its thief! This class is design to have stealth. In wow rouges have infinite stealth and no one is crying, and this is SPVP forum ye? and all maps are conquest in stealth you can’t cap points so why its OP? if u take away stealth from thief how the hell he can put dmg to you?
one more thing shadow refuge isnt op as long as u have aoe dmg/fear/5 skill on mesmer GS/mele auto attack(watch the animation)

ozzero.3892:

Its thief! This class is design to have stealth. In wow rouges have infinite stealth and no one is crying, and this is SPVP forum ye? and all maps are conquest in stealth you can’t cap points so why its OP? if u take away stealth from thief how the hell he can put dmg to you?
one more thing shadow refuge isnt op as long as u have aoe dmg/fear/5 skill on mesmer GS/mele auto attack(watch the animation)

To be fair, in WoW if the stealthed thief was attacked they came out of stealth. And the thief only had one long cooldown spell that put them in stealth while in combat. Not a great example there.

However, i dont think there’s any problem with stealth right now in sPvP. I DO think there’s a problem with stealth in WvW.

Guys we have a thread for QQ both for thinking the thief is UP or OP.

Can we not clutter up our forum with crap, can’t we be more like the mesmers with their constructive criticism, builds , guides etc…

Frostedblaze.9017:

ozzero.3892:

Its thief! This class is design to have stealth. In wow rouges have infinite stealth and no one is crying, and this is SPVP forum ye? and all maps are conquest in stealth you can’t cap points so why its OP? if u take away stealth from thief how the hell he can put dmg to you?
one more thing shadow refuge isnt op as long as u have aoe dmg/fear/5 skill on mesmer GS/mele auto attack(watch the animation)

To be fair, in WoW if the stealthed thief was attacked they came out of stealth. And the thief only had one long cooldown spell that put them in stealth while in combat. Not a great example there.

However, i dont think there’s any problem with stealth right now in sPvP. I DO think there’s a problem with stealth in WvW.

thats why its spvp forum I dont play wvwvw and dont care.
I dont want to make a off topic but stealth in wow was wayyy op as the rouge class than in GW2

Stealth in WOW was way more OP than it is in GW2? That is a very interesting point of view. WOW stealth was very limited and had somewhat proper counters. Doesn’t seem that way here.

Caom.9251:

Guys we have a thread for QQ both for thinking the thief is UP or OP.

Can we not clutter up our forum with crap, can’t we be more like the mesmers with their constructive criticism, builds , guides etc…

I think it is a sign that there is a real problem with thieves:
-The one who do not want to loose their charming efficient toy
-The others who feel the situation is completely unfair

When you have non constructive discussion it is because someone has no interest on doing it. Guess who whishes that no conclusions can be taken ? Those who want a change or the others ?

Main arguments I saw:
For “Thieves are ok or need a up”:
-Thiefes are squishy
-High risk high reward
-Designed to be high burst / high mobility / high escape
-Anticipate
-Guess when backstab will land
-No place in zergs
-PVE useless
-If the thieve leaves…you won … so be happy (=> I promise I saw this one)
-L2P

For “Thieves have a complete broken mechanic”:
-Thief can reset the match as long as he is not the winner
-High reward / No risk
-OP engagement damage
-Escape when he wants
-Perma stealth
-Uncatchable if the thief wants to leave
-OP condi removal / OP health regen / OP Stun break / OP dodge machine / OP initiative regen
-4 sec to kill a thief otherwise thief stealths / resets fight / restarts fight => impossible on a dodge / teleporting machine

To be honest I agree that thieves are squishy but I fully disagree to the “High risk High reward” => Thief is by far the class with less risk if played with caution (no comparison possible to other professions)

I usually play as thief, but not for PvP advantage. Thief is one of my favorite class mainly because i love shadowy stealth stuff. Constantly growing concern that thief is OP and every balancing attempt made it even difficult to enjoy playing as thief in PvE. Sadly one day i had enough and returned to my warrior, but every day i feel drawn back to my thief as if its the class i am meant to be. It saddens me that i am unable to enjoy this beautiful world ANet put together as a class i always wanted to play…

So am I the only one? Am i the only thief in here who doesn’t care about PvP, and every day struggle to play PvE?

I think Shadow Refuge could use some toning down, since usually the biggest complaint seems to be the fact thieves can stealth and run away when the fight isn’t going in their favor. While I agree that a good player would just aoe the refuge, it’s also true a clever thief will first make sure the enemy can’t reach the refuge fast enough, for example by using a Shadowstep or couple of infiltrator’s arrows first.

Without the refuge we’d be slightly more vulnerable when trying to get away (Smoke field comboing gives away your location and we have no other sources of long duration stealth), but it still wouldn’t hurt us too badly as we could use those couple of seconds we usually get to get behind something. You know, we’d actually have to sneak to be sneaky.

Thoughts?

yski.7642:

I think Shadow Refuge could use some toning down, since usually the biggest complaint seems to be the fact thieves can stealth and run away when the fight isn’t going in their favor.
Without the refuge we’d be slightly more vulnerable when trying to get away (Smoke field comboing gives away your location and we have no other sources of long duration stealth

First, Toning down doesn’t mean the same thing as getting rid of Shadow Refuge.
Second, why should we be the ones to suffer? Shadow Refuge is the only skill I as a thief have to just poof and not die to a zerg. (I realize that I could also use shadowstep, but it just isn’t nearly as effective) Plus it might be a little on the easy side of the game, but I think we deserve a little bit of easy in our lives too.

Never laughed as much before. good topic! bump!

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Mrbig.8019:

Med.6150:

Stealth is definitely overpowered. It’s not invincibility, but it allows you to potentially be anywhere on the map seen from the perspective of your opponent.

Stealth allows you to regroup after a lost team fight and negate the other team the ability to scout and intercept, slow you down or apply pressure to you. Stealth also gives you the ability to initiate a fight and thus gain the upper hand, because your opponent can not guard both of their nodes with equal numbers.

For many this is accepted counterplay to a very strong position the winner of a team fight will usually find themselves in (being able to scout and react to an attack immediately or slow the enemy down from elevated positions while they are moving towards a node is very strong on many maps quite frankly).

However, being able to totally subtract yourself from the map and coordinate a full burst out of stealth is just beyond strong. We have a ton of abilities that deal instant damage and can be executed within half a second by multiple people. Mathematically right now 3 DPS classes can kill any target in GW2 before they can react (2 is usually enough for any target we see in tournaments). That’s why we are seeing more and more groups using stealth openers.

Now in my opinion stealth is important for some classes. For thieves and mesmers (less so imo) it is a defensive mechanic, that should not simply be taken away, especially in tpvp. Stealth becomes overpowered when it can be maintained for long periods of time (Shadow Refuge) or even permanently (smoke field + blast finishers). Stealth is also overpowered as an out of combat mechanic.

I would welcome two changes to stealth, but I’d already be grateful for one of them to be implemented, as I am not greedy:

1. Stealth can not be stacked

2. Stealth only works, if you’re in combat

PS: I play thief mainly.

the only really OP skill a thief has regarding stealth is shadow refuge.

Remove it and we’ll be happy.

My main is a thief and i agree SR is really OP, and one of the main reason why thieves are brought in high end tPvP: stealth assaults from the whole team are OP as kitten.

Yeah, SR is soo OP. Because, you can’t AoE into it, at all. If you could thief would just run out of it and lose stealth that would be cool. Or the thief would have to use a util like shadowstep to get away. Either way he would get revealed.

Sucks you can’t force the thief to leave his SR or just kill them in it.

EDIT: To the quote of the quote. R.I.P d/p.

“refuging in stealth” is not the point of the skill.

SR point is to stealth your allies and coordinate bursts from stealth. If you’re using it selfishly, you’re losing the skill potential, and you would be better off with Blinding Powder ( istant, can be used to neutralize single shot bursts, strong with S/D since it gives istant interrupts availability /strong with D/P for istant backstab after shadow shot etc ).

Shadow refuge should be removed from the game IMO.

ozzero.3892:

Frostedblaze.9017:

ozzero.3892:

Its thief! This class is design to have stealth. In wow rouges have infinite stealth and no one is crying, and this is SPVP forum ye? and all maps are conquest in stealth you can’t cap points so why its OP? if u take away stealth from thief how the hell he can put dmg to you?
one more thing shadow refuge isnt op as long as u have aoe dmg/fear/5 skill on mesmer GS/mele auto attack(watch the animation)

To be fair, in WoW if the stealthed thief was attacked they came out of stealth. And the thief only had one long cooldown spell that put them in stealth while in combat. Not a great example there.

However, i dont think there’s any problem with stealth right now in sPvP. I DO think there’s a problem with stealth in WvW.

thats why its spvp forum I dont play wvwvw and dont care.
I dont want to make a off topic but stealth in wow was wayyy op as the rouge class than in GW2

Yeah, now we know you dont even played wow or rougues.

Mrbig.8019:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Mrbig.8019:

Med.6150:

Stealth is definitely overpowered. It’s not invincibility, but it allows you to potentially be anywhere on the map seen from the perspective of your opponent.

Stealth allows you to regroup after a lost team fight and negate the other team the ability to scout and intercept, slow you down or apply pressure to you. Stealth also gives you the ability to initiate a fight and thus gain the upper hand, because your opponent can not guard both of their nodes with equal numbers.

For many this is accepted counterplay to a very strong position the winner of a team fight will usually find themselves in (being able to scout and react to an attack immediately or slow the enemy down from elevated positions while they are moving towards a node is very strong on many maps quite frankly).

However, being able to totally subtract yourself from the map and coordinate a full burst out of stealth is just beyond strong. We have a ton of abilities that deal instant damage and can be executed within half a second by multiple people. Mathematically right now 3 DPS classes can kill any target in GW2 before they can react (2 is usually enough for any target we see in tournaments). That’s why we are seeing more and more groups using stealth openers.

Now in my opinion stealth is important for some classes. For thieves and mesmers (less so imo) it is a defensive mechanic, that should not simply be taken away, especially in tpvp. Stealth becomes overpowered when it can be maintained for long periods of time (Shadow Refuge) or even permanently (smoke field + blast finishers). Stealth is also overpowered as an out of combat mechanic.

I would welcome two changes to stealth, but I’d already be grateful for one of them to be implemented, as I am not greedy:

1. Stealth can not be stacked

2. Stealth only works, if you’re in combat

PS: I play thief mainly.

the only really OP skill a thief has regarding stealth is shadow refuge.

Remove it and we’ll be happy.

My main is a thief and i agree SR is really OP, and one of the main reason why thieves are brought in high end tPvP: stealth assaults from the whole team are OP as kitten.

Yeah, SR is soo OP. Because, you can’t AoE into it, at all. If you could thief would just run out of it and lose stealth that would be cool. Or the thief would have to use a util like shadowstep to get away. Either way he would get revealed.

Sucks you can’t force the thief to leave his SR or just kill them in it.

EDIT: To the quote of the quote. R.I.P d/p.

“refuging in stealth” is not the point of the skill.

SR point is to stealth your allies and coordinate bursts from stealth. If you’re using it selfishly, you’re losing the skill potential, and you would be better off with Blinding Powder ( istant, can be used to neutralize single shot bursts, strong with S/D since it gives istant interrupts availability /strong with D/P for istant backstab after shadow shot etc ).

Shadow refuge should be removed from the game IMO.

Why should shadow refuge be removed? Engis can drop a smoke field and enough blast finishers can get 12s worth of stealth. That is more efficient. Should that be removed? Should smoke fields be removed? Thieves will basically be non-existent in tPvP if you remove SR.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Mrbig.8019:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Mrbig.8019:

Med.6150:

Stealth is definitely overpowered. It’s not invincibility, but it allows you to potentially be anywhere on the map seen from the perspective of your opponent.

Stealth allows you to regroup after a lost team fight and negate the other team the ability to scout and intercept, slow you down or apply pressure to you. Stealth also gives you the ability to initiate a fight and thus gain the upper hand, because your opponent can not guard both of their nodes with equal numbers.

For many this is accepted counterplay to a very strong position the winner of a team fight will usually find themselves in (being able to scout and react to an attack immediately or slow the enemy down from elevated positions while they are moving towards a node is very strong on many maps quite frankly).

However, being able to totally subtract yourself from the map and coordinate a full burst out of stealth is just beyond strong. We have a ton of abilities that deal instant damage and can be executed within half a second by multiple people. Mathematically right now 3 DPS classes can kill any target in GW2 before they can react (2 is usually enough for any target we see in tournaments). That’s why we are seeing more and more groups using stealth openers.

Now in my opinion stealth is important for some classes. For thieves and mesmers (less so imo) it is a defensive mechanic, that should not simply be taken away, especially in tpvp. Stealth becomes overpowered when it can be maintained for long periods of time (Shadow Refuge) or even permanently (smoke field + blast finishers). Stealth is also overpowered as an out of combat mechanic.

I would welcome two changes to stealth, but I’d already be grateful for one of them to be implemented, as I am not greedy:

1. Stealth can not be stacked

2. Stealth only works, if you’re in combat

PS: I play thief mainly.

the only really OP skill a thief has regarding stealth is shadow refuge.

Remove it and we’ll be happy.

My main is a thief and i agree SR is really OP, and one of the main reason why thieves are brought in high end tPvP: stealth assaults from the whole team are OP as kitten.

Yeah, SR is soo OP. Because, you can’t AoE into it, at all. If you could thief would just run out of it and lose stealth that would be cool. Or the thief would have to use a util like shadowstep to get away. Either way he would get revealed.

Sucks you can’t force the thief to leave his SR or just kill them in it.

EDIT: To the quote of the quote. R.I.P d/p.

“refuging in stealth” is not the point of the skill.

SR point is to stealth your allies and coordinate bursts from stealth. If you’re using it selfishly, you’re losing the skill potential, and you would be better off with Blinding Powder ( istant, can be used to neutralize single shot bursts, strong with S/D since it gives istant interrupts availability /strong with D/P for istant backstab after shadow shot etc ).

Shadow refuge should be removed from the game IMO.

Why should shadow refuge be removed? Engis can drop a smoke field and enough blast finishers can get 12s worth of stealth. That is more efficient. Should that be removed? Should smoke fields be removed? Thieves will basically be non-existent in tPvP if you remove SR.

The bolded part says it all.

I think that’s enough of a reason to remove the skill and balance the thief profession better.

Revealed must be reverted back to 3 seconds in pvp.
4 seconds revealed makes d/d feel horribly clunky

Mrbig.8019:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Mrbig.8019:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Mrbig.8019:

Med.6150:

Stealth is definitely overpowered. It’s not invincibility, but it allows you to potentially be anywhere on the map seen from the perspective of your opponent.

Stealth allows you to regroup after a lost team fight and negate the other team the ability to scout and intercept, slow you down or apply pressure to you. Stealth also gives you the ability to initiate a fight and thus gain the upper hand, because your opponent can not guard both of their nodes with equal numbers.

For many this is accepted counterplay to a very strong position the winner of a team fight will usually find themselves in (being able to scout and react to an attack immediately or slow the enemy down from elevated positions while they are moving towards a node is very strong on many maps quite frankly).

However, being able to totally subtract yourself from the map and coordinate a full burst out of stealth is just beyond strong. We have a ton of abilities that deal instant damage and can be executed within half a second by multiple people. Mathematically right now 3 DPS classes can kill any target in GW2 before they can react (2 is usually enough for any target we see in tournaments). That’s why we are seeing more and more groups using stealth openers.

Now in my opinion stealth is important for some classes. For thieves and mesmers (less so imo) it is a defensive mechanic, that should not simply be taken away, especially in tpvp. Stealth becomes overpowered when it can be maintained for long periods of time (Shadow Refuge) or even permanently (smoke field + blast finishers). Stealth is also overpowered as an out of combat mechanic.

I would welcome two changes to stealth, but I’d already be grateful for one of them to be implemented, as I am not greedy:

1. Stealth can not be stacked

2. Stealth only works, if you’re in combat

PS: I play thief mainly.

the only really OP skill a thief has regarding stealth is shadow refuge.

Remove it and we’ll be happy.

My main is a thief and i agree SR is really OP, and one of the main reason why thieves are brought in high end tPvP: stealth assaults from the whole team are OP as kitten.

Yeah, SR is soo OP. Because, you can’t AoE into it, at all. If you could thief would just run out of it and lose stealth that would be cool. Or the thief would have to use a util like shadowstep to get away. Either way he would get revealed.

Sucks you can’t force the thief to leave his SR or just kill them in it.

EDIT: To the quote of the quote. R.I.P d/p.

“refuging in stealth” is not the point of the skill.

SR point is to stealth your allies and coordinate bursts from stealth. If you’re using it selfishly, you’re losing the skill potential, and you would be better off with Blinding Powder ( istant, can be used to neutralize single shot bursts, strong with S/D since it gives istant interrupts availability /strong with D/P for istant backstab after shadow shot etc ).

Shadow refuge should be removed from the game IMO.

Why should shadow refuge be removed? Engis can drop a smoke field and enough blast finishers can get 12s worth of stealth. That is more efficient. Should that be removed? Should smoke fields be removed? Thieves will basically be non-existent in tPvP if you remove SR.

The bolded part says it all.

I think that’s enough of a reason to remove the skill and balance the thief profession better.

I will agree with that statement. Thieves need a whole new take on how they are balanced. And instead of SR, a thief could use Black Powder for a 12s stealth, with enough blast finishers.

Initiative needs to change. I don’t know to what, but thief weapon skills need cool-downs like other professions. Until they have them, strong skills will always be too strong. Since they can be used repetitively without any drawbacks (i.e. dodge 2 heartseekers player eats 3 more anyway/ old school pistol whip meta were not having invulnerability meant you probably lost the encounter.) and other skills will be too weak (and you can’t buff them cause then it causes problems). Giving them cool-downs would let them keep strong skills, open up the ability to have skills buffed, without making then open to the abuse that some skills have had in the past and some have today. Honestly things like black-powder> heart-seeker for stealth would not be nearly as annoying as it is if only was happening ever 15-20s rather than all the time.

We’ve had a whole year of the profession just being gimmick after gimmick. Backstab →heartseeker →cloak and dagger silliness → hasted pistolwhip → tactical strike → caltrops + deathblossom → mug burst → now flanking/larcenous strike & dagger pistol builds that stealth and reset the fight often. None of these would be an issue if the skills involved had cool downs.

I don’t agree with thieves being the best spike damage. That fits warriors way more (I mean that’s their thing, damage with a side of damage, right?). When I think of a thief I think of disruption and annoyance. Someone causing trouble all the time. Maybe I’ve just spent too much time in the inner city and rough neighborhoods.

^numot suggests that we transform the thief into a dolyak mob?

The thief is fine. In fact we could use a skill that makes us some sort of invulnerable

Numot.3965:

Initiative needs to change. I don’t know to what, but thief weapon skills need cool-downs like other professions. Until they have them, strong skills will always be too strong. Since they can be used repetitively without any drawbacks (i.e. dodge 2 heartseekers player eats 3 more anyway/ old school pistol whip meta were not having invulnerability meant you probably lost the encounter.) and other skills will be too weak (and you can’t buff them cause then it causes problems). Giving them cool-downs would let them keep strong skills, open up the ability to have skills buffed, without making then open to the abuse that some skills have had in the past and some have today. Honestly things like black-powder> heart-seeker for stealth would not be nearly as annoying as it is if only was happening ever 15-20s rather than all the time.

We’ve had a whole year of the profession just being gimmick after gimmick. Backstab ->heartseeker ->cloak and dagger silliness -> hasted pistolwhip -> tactical strike -> caltrops + deathblossom -> mug burst -> now flanking/larcenous strike & dagger pistol builds that stealth and reset the fight often. None of these would be an issue if the skills involved had cool downs.

I don’t agree with thieves being the best spike damage. That fits warriors way more (I mean that’s their thing, damage with a side of damage, right?). When I think of a thief I think of disruption and annoyance. Someone causing trouble all the time. Maybe I’ve just spent too much time in the inner city and rough neighborhoods.

Sorry but this would make thieves the most useless class in the game by far. I’m sorry you think the thief class abilities are gimmicky but honestly you just sound like you dislike fighting against the class. Thief is far from OP. Also no drawbacks? Are you aware that when thieves use up their initiative they can’t use any abilities. Its as though all their abilities are on cool down. That is the drawback. You basically just listed the entire class and all its abilities as being unfair. You realize A-net will never change whole class mechanics like initiative or stealth or they risk entire player-bases leaving.

Black powder on a 15-20 second cooldown? With all weapon abilities on cooldown? Sorry but this is just bad. They would have to buff all of the thief’s stats and increase damage on all abilities and give thieves better utilities. Basically this goes contrary to what you just wanted, and it just makes thieves even more into Warriors, further dumbing this game down.

Wonderer.1790:

Numot.3965:

Initiative needs to change. I don’t know to what, but thief weapon skills need cool-downs like other professions. Until they have them, strong skills will always be too strong. Since they can be used repetitively without any drawbacks (i.e. dodge 2 heartseekers player eats 3 more anyway/ old school pistol whip meta were not having invulnerability meant you probably lost the encounter.) and other skills will be too weak (and you can’t buff them cause then it causes problems). Giving them cool-downs would let them keep strong skills, open up the ability to have skills buffed, without making then open to the abuse that some skills have had in the past and some have today. Honestly things like black-powder> heart-seeker for stealth would not be nearly as annoying as it is if only was happening ever 15-20s rather than all the time.

We’ve had a whole year of the profession just being gimmick after gimmick. Backstab ->heartseeker ->cloak and dagger silliness -> hasted pistolwhip -> tactical strike -> caltrops + deathblossom -> mug burst -> now flanking/larcenous strike & dagger pistol builds that stealth and reset the fight often. None of these would be an issue if the skills involved had cool downs.

I don’t agree with thieves being the best spike damage. That fits warriors way more (I mean that’s their thing, damage with a side of damage, right?). When I think of a thief I think of disruption and annoyance. Someone causing trouble all the time. Maybe I’ve just spent too much time in the inner city and rough neighborhoods.

Sorry but this would make thieves the most useless class in the game by far. I’m sorry you think the thief class abilities are gimmicky but honestly you just sound like you dislike fighting against the class. Thief is far from OP. Also no drawbacks? Are you aware that when thieves use up their initiative they can’t use any abilities. Its as though all their abilities are on cool down. That is the drawback. You basically just listed the entire class and all its abilities as being unfair. You realize A-net will never change whole class mechanics like initiative or stealth or they risk entire player-bases leaving.

Black powder on a 15-20 second cooldown? With all weapon abilities on cooldown? Sorry but this is just bad. They would have to buff all of the thief’s stats and increase damage on all abilities and give thieves better utilities. Basically this goes contrary to what you just wanted, and it just makes thieves even more into Warriors, further dumbing this game down.

No being able to spam 2 – 3 buttons is Over powered and needs to be changed.

Zelulose.8695:

Whats wrong with thief is not stealth. Just the healing from stealth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrVdPMetZ2o
This thief was pressured from confusion and retal and an iswordsman but It would stealth before I could finish.

So the thief couldn’t kill you because your skills (applying confusion, applying retaliation) stopped him from attacking you and allowed you time to heal — and you couldn’t kill him because his skills (stealth) stopped you attacking him and allowed him time to heal.

Mesmer vs Thief looks very well balanced from your video.

MightyMe.1356:

lowfreq.3674:

currently thieves are able to hop in and out of stealth constantly along with the ability to teleport. it feels really overpowered.

Currently Necromancers are able to stack bleeding + poison + dmg on fear with their marks constantly along with the ability to have another hp bar and use plauge for massive dmg. it feels really overpowered.

You’re bad for trying to make that comparison.

Dasenthal.6520:

First, Toning down doesn’t mean the same thing as getting rid of Shadow Refuge.
Second, why should we be the ones to suffer? Shadow Refuge is the only skill I as a thief have to just poof and not die to a zerg. (I realize that I could also use shadowstep, but it just isn’t nearly as effective) Plus it might be a little on the easy side of the game, but I think we deserve a little bit of easy in our lives too.

That’s exactly I suggested it only be toned down instead of removed. I probably could have worded it better, but I wanted to point out why it is a problem in its current state so I decided to do the whole “if it exists vs if it doesn’t” comparison

The fact we can use it to just go poof and vanish is slightly imbalanced IMO, especially with the mobility we have. All you really need to survive a zerg anyway is a dagger off hand – get inside the zerg and C&D until you can safely run away.

The point is, with all the mobility and short duration stealths we have a good thief still has the tools to survive even without the refuge. The biggest reason people are complaining about thieves atm seems to be the ability to stealth and run so easily, so odds are stealth in general will be nerfed instead if we are allowed to keep our guaranteed get away button.

I’m not really sure what should be done about refuge, but perhaps lowering the stealth duration would do the trick?

Dat massive damage on plague…

Shadow-Refuge is definitely a very strong utility, but makes the game really interesting and not that predictable. I think without shadow-refuge, the thief loose much viability for a team.
But in general I agree with stealth being a problem. It should be decreased slightly in its duration.

ozzero.3892:

if u take away stealth from thief how the hell he can put dmg to you?

the way every other class does

Iceflame.5024:

Dat massive damage on plague…

lol

In my opinion stealth is fine, just need some adjustments when losing target, it should work also for the stealth player, and only be able to target again when get out of stealth.

LeetSauce.7210:

Quick suggestion for the devs to help fix thieves, Can we get expeditious dodger and fleet shadow out of Acrobatics and into the Shadow Arts line.. Thieves are lacking effective builds against hybrid bunker/condition builds.. These two traits could at least give us a way to run a viable build that is not overpowering but competitive with other class builds.. I find the ability to keep almost a permanent swiftness during a fight is key for thief combat positioning since current changes we need more leverage to match our survivability/damage ratio compared to other classes

No thanks, leave Fleet Shadow where it is. My Shadow Arts line is already full of great traits – Shadow’s Embrace, Infusion of Shadow and Shadow’s Rejuvenation. I don’t want to give any of those up.

Rather than re-work traits they need to fix Signet of Shadows so we are fast again. Plenty of professions have virtual perma swiftness (I know I can keep my warrior permaswift and engineer with speedy kits trait has permaswiftness). Others have swiftness signets – about the only profession without easy access to swiftness is a mesmer (I think).

Arenanet said in SOTG they want thieves to be the most mobile profession in the game yet other professions have more access to swiftness than us.

So Signet of Shadows should be buffed to have 33% swiftness.

So that begs the question – why would you lose 33% swiftness by activating the signet? You wouldn’t unless the active skill was very good/useful. So the active needs a buff at the same time.

So I would suggest:

Passive: 33% swiftness
Active: AoE blind + cure immobilise, cripple, chill + breaks stun

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Shadow-Refuge is definitely a very strong utility, but makes the game really interesting and not that predictable. I think without shadow-refuge, the thief loose much viability for a team.
But in general I agree with stealth being a problem. It should be decreased slightly in its duration.

I can agree with that.

But you also have to think that shadow refuge is a MUST HAVE for any thief and, as you said, the thief will lose too much viability without it, meaning its a SINGLE SKILL which makes the class viable ( even S/D doesn’t really offer that much in terms of team utility).

It’s pretty much the same with mesmers, forced to bring IoL and Portal + random stunbreaker mostly because other u-skills are , yes strong, but not on par.

With the thief that’s is not even the case: there’s nothing as strong as shadow refuge, you’re basically a moron if you don’t pick it and are severely hampering your team capabilities.

Back in beta an engi could stack 20 + secs of stealth ( now there’s a cap ) with smoke fields+blasts, i believe it’s time to nerf shadow refuge+ shortbow and balance the thief profession better, because currently we’re helded back by these things ( devs will always say, regarding thief sucking, " but hey, they have massive mobility/AoE + massive AoE stealth, they’re fine !!! " when in reality, we’re not).

Otaur.9268:

No being able to spam 2 – 3 buttons is Over powered and needs to be changed.

All profession specific mechanics are OP – that’s why they are profession specific mechanics. I’d love myself some OP Virtues, Illusions, Death Shroud and Kits — they gave thieves Steal and Initiative instead. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession_mechanic

This thread should be deleted and reposted. 72 pages of people kittening because a thief stabbed them in the kitten causing but_hurt!

Enmity.3428:

@lowfreq -

You’ll never hear a Thief admit that their class actually has some strong abilities. The only reason they’re part of the unholy-trinity (along with Mesmers and Guardians) is that they’re all really, really skilled players or that everyone else just needs to L2P.

Keep this in mind before posting in the future, thanks.

Keep in mind that really really skilled players still use the top 3 classes, you want to show me a really really skilled player, hand them the worst class and have them come out top player every time.

Mrbig.8019:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Shadow-Refuge is definitely a very strong utility, but makes the game really interesting and not that predictable. I think without shadow-refuge, the thief loose much viability for a team.
But in general I agree with stealth being a problem. It should be decreased slightly in its duration.

I can agree with that.

But you also have to think that shadow refuge is a MUST HAVE for any thief and, as you said, the thief will lose too much viability without it, meaning its a SINGLE SKILL which makes the class viable ( even S/D doesn’t really offer that much in terms of team utility).

It’s pretty much the same with mesmers, forced to bring IoL and Portal + random stunbreaker mostly because other u-skills are , yes strong, but not on par.

With the thief that’s is not even the case: there’s nothing as strong as shadow refuge, you’re basically a moron if you don’t pick it and are severely hampering your team capabilities.

Back in beta an engi could stack 20 + secs of stealth ( now there’s a cap ) with smoke fields+blasts, i believe it’s time to nerf shadow refuge+ shortbow and balance the thief profession better, because currently we’re helded back by these things ( devs will always say, regarding thief sucking, " but hey, they have massive mobility/AoE + massive AoE stealth, they’re fine !!! " when in reality, we’re not).

Shadow refuge has DARK combo field no SMOKE.
Again here shows how people like mystification.

Evilek.5690:

Mrbig.8019:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Shadow-Refuge is definitely a very strong utility, but makes the game really interesting and not that predictable. I think without shadow-refuge, the thief loose much viability for a team.
But in general I agree with stealth being a problem. It should be decreased slightly in its duration.

I can agree with that.

But you also have to think that shadow refuge is a MUST HAVE for any thief and, as you said, the thief will lose too much viability without it, meaning its a SINGLE SKILL which makes the class viable ( even S/D doesn’t really offer that much in terms of team utility).

It’s pretty much the same with mesmers, forced to bring IoL and Portal + random stunbreaker mostly because other u-skills are , yes strong, but not on par.

With the thief that’s is not even the case: there’s nothing as strong as shadow refuge, you’re basically a moron if you don’t pick it and are severely hampering your team capabilities.

Back in beta an engi could stack 20 + secs of stealth ( now there’s a cap ) with smoke fields+blasts, i believe it’s time to nerf shadow refuge+ shortbow and balance the thief profession better, because currently we’re helded back by these things ( devs will always say, regarding thief sucking, " but hey, they have massive mobility/AoE + massive AoE stealth, they’re fine !!! " when in reality, we’re not).

Shadow refuge has DARK combo field no SMOKE.
Again here shows how people like mystification.

The smoke field was refered to the engineers skill “Smoke Bomb”, which is indeed a Combo-Field: Smoke. But yes you’re right.

Evilek.5690:

Mrbig.8019:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Shadow-Refuge is definitely a very strong utility, but makes the game really interesting and not that predictable. I think without shadow-refuge, the thief loose much viability for a team.
But in general I agree with stealth being a problem. It should be decreased slightly in its duration.

I can agree with that.

But you also have to think that shadow refuge is a MUST HAVE for any thief and, as you said, the thief will lose too much viability without it, meaning its a SINGLE SKILL which makes the class viable ( even S/D doesn’t really offer that much in terms of team utility).

It’s pretty much the same with mesmers, forced to bring IoL and Portal + random stunbreaker mostly because other u-skills are , yes strong, but not on par.

With the thief that’s is not even the case: there’s nothing as strong as shadow refuge, you’re basically a moron if you don’t pick it and are severely hampering your team capabilities.

Back in beta an engi could stack 20 + secs of stealth ( now there’s a cap ) with smoke fields+blasts, i believe it’s time to nerf shadow refuge+ shortbow and balance the thief profession better, because currently we’re helded back by these things ( devs will always say, regarding thief sucking, " but hey, they have massive mobility/AoE + massive AoE stealth, they’re fine !!! " when in reality, we’re not).

Shadow refuge has DARK combo field no SMOKE.
Again here shows how people like mystification.

dude, what are you talking about ? stealth is obtained via smoke combo filed+ blast/lrap finisher.

that’s what i said.

I’m talking about thief must haves (shadow refuge and shortbow) that are in needing of a nerf in order to balance the thief profession better.

if you don’t know the only reasons why thieves are brought in competitive tPvP are mobility (shortbow) and AoE stealth, then i would question your knowledge about the class

I fought these two thieves a bit ago in wvw, 2v2, they just kept stealthing and warping around all over the place. I was on the bunkerish side so they weren’t able to kill me (I was close enough to a supply camp for npcs to run to), but they could kill my ally war pretty easily and we certainly couldn’t kill one of them. They weren’t bunker specced either, so they could deal decent damage, either spend some initiative at and make it bursty, or drag it out by repeatedly stealthing and warping. They start losing? They just stealth and warp away with shadow return. Worst part was that I wouldn’t know where shadow return would lead them to, since they used they laid the initial skill while stealthed too. Only chance was bursting them down, but even then the other would use aoe stealth and the downed would use the downed state warp to move. Going glass wouldn’t have been an option either. Sure it would have made downed one easier, but thieves are usually better at getting that faster burst in, and love chasing. It only ended when they decided not to run away for whatever reason and finally died.

Now what does this experience reinforce to me? Sure they aren’t strong, actually kind of weak, but they’re freaking annoying and rather unfun to fight against.

What do people what nerfed? Things that annoying them, which is often OP things, but not always, gimmicks being the prime target of non OP nerfing.

edit: …basically they need straightforward builds buff a bit so we don’t see annoying things as often :p

Mrbig.8019:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Shadow-Refuge is definitely a very strong utility, but makes the game really interesting and not that predictable. I think without shadow-refuge, the thief loose much viability for a team.
But in general I agree with stealth being a problem. It should be decreased slightly in its duration.

I can agree with that.

But you also have to think that shadow refuge is a MUST HAVE for any thief and, as you said, the thief will lose too much viability without it, meaning its a SINGLE SKILL which makes the class viable ( even S/D doesn’t really offer that much in terms of team utility).

It’s pretty much the same with mesmers, forced to bring IoL and Portal + random stunbreaker mostly because other u-skills are , yes strong, but not on par.

With the thief that’s is not even the case: there’s nothing as strong as shadow refuge, you’re basically a moron if you don’t pick it and are severely hampering your team capabilities.

Back in beta an engi could stack 20 + secs of stealth ( now there’s a cap ) with smoke fields+blasts, i believe it’s time to nerf shadow refuge+ shortbow and balance the thief profession better, because currently we’re helded back by these things ( devs will always say, regarding thief sucking, " but hey, they have massive mobility/AoE + massive AoE stealth, they’re fine !!! " when in reality, we’re not).

I don’t know if the right way to go about it by nerfing SB, but maybe buffing other weapons to give them mobility and blast finishers or more ways to survive. Currently SB can do all this for the thief; be very mobile around a map, stealth you with pistol 5 and SB 2, tons of evade, and good damage in team fights. The reason it seems so good is because no other weapon set can compare. And no other weapons have as much synergy as the SB do.

The same goes for D/P. That is the perfect example of how a weapon set should be. Using every single weapon skill together at all times.

Auesis.7301:

dovrak.4376:

Auesis.7301:

Penguin.5197:

Auesis.7301:

Sure, stealth is a nuisance…in hot-joins. You know, where nobody gives a rat’s kitten about capturing points.

Any Thief using Stealth extensively in a tournament team is contributing nothing and should be kicked. The mechanic prevents you interacting with the main objective of the kittening game.

Sounds like an easy fix then. Replace traits that reward you for being stealthed with traits that reward you for being unstealthed/ general survival traits and everyone wins! Less stealth and thieves get to interact with the main objective! Yay!!

I would be perfectly happy with that. I’ve always hated Stealth as a mechanic. I want Assassin back.

Problem is you have an unstealthed assassin already, known as S/D S/D runes of lyssa/energy sigils and massive dodge thief.

A class with one build.

AMAZING.

A class with at least 2 very viable builds, AMAZING!

meanwhile elementalist only viable one is D/D. EVEN MORE AMAZING!

Fortus.6175:

A class with at least 2 very viable builds, AMAZING!

meanwhile elementalist only viable one is D/D. EVEN MORE AMAZING!

Do you even S/D ele bro?

Asomal.6453:

Fortus.6175:

A class with at least 2 very viable builds, AMAZING!

meanwhile elementalist only viable one is D/D. EVEN MORE AMAZING!

Do you even S/D ele bro?

yes, and considering that if you want to do damage you need to be melee, everyone would rather use D/D for better CC and no fillers.

Once again, only viable build is D/D, water arcana with 10 in air for BttH

Stealth is fine in short durations. 3-4s without problem.
Long term the game would probably be better off if stealth didn’t stack in duration (with the stealth increased on blast finish) and SR was more of a revive than a long duration stealth.

However it’s not a huge issue any stealth changes would ideally come in with general thief improvements so not to kick the class into the curb.

Fortus.6175:

Auesis.7301:

dovrak.4376:

Auesis.7301:

Penguin.5197:

Auesis.7301:

Sure, stealth is a nuisance…in hot-joins. You know, where nobody gives a rat’s kitten about capturing points.

Any Thief using Stealth extensively in a tournament team is contributing nothing and should be kicked. The mechanic prevents you interacting with the main objective of the kittening game.

Sounds like an easy fix then. Replace traits that reward you for being stealthed with traits that reward you for being unstealthed/ general survival traits and everyone wins! Less stealth and thieves get to interact with the main objective! Yay!!

I would be perfectly happy with that. I’ve always hated Stealth as a mechanic. I want Assassin back.

Problem is you have an unstealthed assassin already, known as S/D S/D runes of lyssa/energy sigils and massive dodge thief.

A class with one build.

AMAZING.

A class with at least 2 very viable builds, AMAZING!

meanwhile elementalist only viable one is D/D. EVEN MORE AMAZING!

I’m talking about the hypothetical GW2 Assassin, not Thief.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

I don’t know if the right way to go about it by nerfing SB, but maybe buffing other weapons to give them mobility and blast finishers or more ways to survive. Currently SB can do all this for the thief; be very mobile around a map, stealth you with pistol 5 and SB 2, tons of evade, and good damage in team fights. The reason it seems so good is because no other weapon set can compare. And no other weapons have as much synergy as the SB do.

The same goes for D/P. That is the perfect example of how a weapon set should be. Using every single weapon skill together at all times.

Yeah, the way to balance Thieves better is to buff their other weapons.

Are you for real?

Enmity.3428:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

I don’t know if the right way to go about it by nerfing SB, but maybe buffing other weapons to give them mobility and blast finishers or more ways to survive. Currently SB can do all this for the thief; be very mobile around a map, stealth you with pistol 5 and SB 2, tons of evade, and good damage in team fights. The reason it seems so good is because no other weapon set can compare. And no other weapons have as much synergy as the SB do.

The same goes for D/P. That is the perfect example of how a weapon set should be. Using every single weapon skill together at all times.

Yeah, the way to balance Thieves better is to buff their other weapons.

Are you for real?

Naw, you know what, instead nerf SB, and thief should have 5 useless weapon sets. Great idea. We have achieved balance.