Guild Wars 2

Lord Krilik.3692:

So when is A-net planning on responding to this thread to let us know what they were thinking when creating it, and what the purpose of this thread actually serves?

Also, when will they lock it down because it clearly derailed some time ago…

I get that they wanted feedback yes, but there are more than enough common themes appearing in this thread by now.

Should we assume a patch to the class is incoming based on the common trends of this thread?

I only hope they can overlook all the whining.

+1, good sir. I wouldn’t hold my breath though. Frankly, the way this thread has gone, it almost looks like this thread was the extent of their plan.

I’m sure more nerfs will be forthcoming anyway. All while Flanking Strike remains busted, Pistol Whip remains kitten, Dancing Dagger remains initiative expensive, etc. Christ, I’m having flashbacks of playing SAM in XI… and they were hated on like this even without a strong PvP mode in that game.

Revealed debuff should only be given to “Cloak and Dagger.”

All Other Thief skills should ignore reveal, tbh, it breaks too many traits.

Nate.5109:

Lord Krilik.3692:

So when is A-net planning on responding to this thread to let us know what they were thinking when creating it, and what the purpose of this thread actually serves?

Also, when will they lock it down because it clearly derailed some time ago…

I get that they wanted feedback yes, but there are more than enough common themes appearing in this thread by now.

Should we assume a patch to the class is incoming based on the common trends of this thread?

I only hope they can overlook all the whining.

+1, good sir. I wouldn’t hold my breath though. Frankly, the way this thread has gone, it almost looks like this thread was the extent of their plan.

I’m sure more nerfs will be forthcoming anyway. All while Flanking Strike remains busted, Pistol Whip remains kitten, Dancing Dagger remains initiative expensive, etc. Christ, I’m having flashbacks of playing SAM in XI… and they were hated on like this even without a strong PvP mode in that game.

Thieves are being removed from the game, calling it now.

I hope they just totally change the profession into the assassin from GW1 like they should have done in the first place. Honestly, stealth is never a good idea in an MMO even though it’s far more balanced in GW2 than any other.

Inb4 WvW culling.

Oh, add the option to replace useless skills, not just for thieves but for everyone. Seriously. I haven’t touched death blossom once in the past few months. Why? Because I’m a backstab thief and I get my AoE from shortbow. 3 is literally useless, and that just doesn’t feel right at all.

God I hate the skill system in this game. Why can’t we at least change out 3 for another 3? Say, I take flanking strike or pistol whip instead of death blossom. Then I’d actually use every skill on my bar.

Oh wait, I haven’t used dancing dagger since the over zealous nerf. Should fix that too with some sort of balance seeing as how I can kite way better with my shortbow, being on a build that doesn’t have a ton of initiative return unless I’m stealthing. 4 initiative for a weak cripple is not worth it imo.

Revert the damage nerf and add “loses 25% damage per target hit” or knock 1 initiative off, or add a longer range, something. SOMETHING!

Thanks for reading my rant.

Oh, and the profession is boring as a whole. I want a combo system instead of straight up hurrdurr damage. Initiative doesn’t really make gameplay interesting. Take more things from GW1 assassin and implement them here. It will do the thief some justice.

It’s autoattack city up in here. Spamming 5 > 1, 5 >1, 5 >1, 5>1, 5>1 isn’t all that interesting tbh. A rotation in WoW had 10x the variety as this, hell go play a D/D Ele then play a D/D thief and tell us we have a fun profession. Seriously, do it.

I don’t even have time to autoattack on my D/D Ele. I’m too busy hitting skills left and right on each attunement. Why isn’t thief more like this? Needs more action, less “meh.”

Rukia.4802:

I don’t even have time to autoattack on my D/D Ele. I’m too busy hitting skills left and right on each attunement. Why isn’t thief more like this? Needs more action, less “meh.”

I actually lol’d reading this. It’s SO true! I have an Ele alt that isn’t even geared past 70+ green/yellow that I put a signet/aura build on with daggers a few nights ago. I was spamming skills left and right. Also, it’s just so much more forgiving than Thief is if you screw up.

Opportunist: 20% Chance on Critical to Restore 1 Initiative. (1 second CD.)
- Far too random, remove the internal cool-down and make it a 25% chance on any critical hit.

Initial Strike: 7% Chance to Restore 1 Initiative when using ‘1’ Skill.
- Far too random, remove the “1” skill penalty, buff it to 15% chance to gain 1 initiative off any attack. (this will make it about 2 initiative every 10 seconds, making it as good as the other tier 2 traits that restore initiative.)

StugLyfe.2134:

Like it is with all MMO’s …. the only players defending a broken OP class are the ones exploiting it. Anyone who has ever rolled a thief just laughs at how op it is in nearly every way and anyone that says otherwise is simply a liar.

Like it is with all MMO’s… the only players attacking a fine class are the ones who are losing to it and failing to learn from their loss.. Anyone who has ever rolled a thief just laugh at how the QQ about them is mostly due to players just losing to a thief and not being able to accept they lost fair and square.

Same exact argument… I’m sure you heard before.

Just like every class, Thief takes some skills and brains to execute moves that makes some players QQ. Look at this elementalist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzBn32Fqm9w&feature=plcp
He’s good right? I say he has just as much getaway or even more than a thief. It just takes some brains to do it right.
The same goes for stealthing using CnD. Miss or screw up your CnD, you’re going to hurt for it. The people who play thief long enough and trained their timing are rewarded for their skill, just like ANY other class. It’s not a matter of OPness or class imbalance, but more of a GAP in good and skilled player distribution in the professions.
I don’t see too many good thieves in WvW either but that might just be because I know how to kill them. And when I play as my thief, I can tell you that 50% of the players I fight are pretty slow on their feet. I could stab them in the back, follow behind them, and they STILL run with their backs to me… They even try chasing me, and I just double back and then it’s me chasing them. All I take advantage of is movement, and I’m telling you… WvW on average are casual players. I’ve even played against a small group of 3-5, lead them around really cliffy areas, jumped off and since I have reduced fall damage, I was fine, but they didn’t, so they ended up giving themselves to me on a platter.
Fighting them is a breeze on average for seasoned players. However, I really avoid going all out in WvW because people will whine and say OP on the forums and that later brings nerfs. Of course, playing too laid back has gotten me killed sometimes, but it’s fun.

People asking for nerfs, think about it. If someone has to purposely play worse just so the enemies don’t feel too bad and bring nerfs to your class, that’s just wrong isn’t it? Anyways…

Been down this road before with DAOC. I am not worried too much about Thiefs because I know, and everyone that owns a Thief knows, adjustments are coming. Stealth and/or movement will be tightened up, and the FOTM crowd will be onto the next class. The ones that remain with the Thief class will still dominate.

^I really doubt that. Thief movement and stealth right now is pretty fine. It’s on par with many classes, and you could actually get more movement out using an elementalist if you know what you’re doing.

As far as I can see, movement and stealth on a thief is pretty balanced and fair as far as what it can do compared to other classes. I just don’t see Anet or any way for it to be changed there.

kenshinakh.3672:

^I really doubt that. Thief movement and stealth right now is pretty fine. It’s on par with many classes, and you could actually get more movement out using an elementalist if you know what you’re doing.

As far as I can see, movement and stealth on a thief is pretty balanced and fair as far as what it can do compared to other classes. I just don’t see Anet or any way for it to be changed there.

Actually no, it’s not fine. That’s exactly what stealthers said back in the first few months of DAOC days. When if an Assassin one shotted someone, they stayed in stealth. Of course there was an uproar from the masses and predictably the assassins all said it was fine as is (funny how that works). Well that was changed, and a few months later they gave archers a chance to see stealthed assassins ( weird, a skill that actually has a counter). Assassins were still a very powerful class and well represented in the game even after the changes.

Stealth is very powerful….which is fine, it is a class feature. When a Thief decides to attack, and lose stealth, there should be a timer before he can actually restealth….as many many people have suggested. There can even be a get out of jail free card like DAOC had…vanish. Usable on a timer. So if the fight isn’t going well, you can get out of dodge….once. Even then there was a timer before you could attack again.

Watching a Thief whittle down multiple people by leaving and reentering stealth …while those people are spamming aoes, swinging their weapons looking for the thief is laughable….It’s a gong show, and a little embarrassing for the person who designed that feature.

100% chance there will be adjustments.

When a thief attacks to lose stealth there is a timer… It’s a buff called reveal that makes all stealth attempts fail until it reduces. Play a thief and you’ll realize that.
In WvW the culling is a problem, in Spvp/tpvp less so.

They could increase the duration of Reveal in WvW and solely WvW to account for the culling.

Actually, yes it is quite fine o.o. They only have to fix the culling bug more, but mechanic-wise, it’s very balanced.

GW2 already has a pretty good handicap on stealth.
-It has a 2s revealed buff.
-Stealthing consistently requires using CnD, and that can miss and be dodged.

You don’t move fast while stealthed and you’re prone to channel and AOE spells. A skilled thief can whittle down multiple people same as a skilled [insert other class here]. I posted a video above showing what a skilled D/D Elementalist can do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzBn32Fqm9w&feature=plcp
And I can definitely say that I have a really good elementalist friend that can outrun me on my thief.
Stealth is powerful, but once you know what to do to stop it, it is pretty predictable. Thief can only consistently stealth if there are bodies for it to stealth off of. So if you got a really big zerg group that has inexperienced players, it’s going to be used as an advantage. Even so, when a thief goes out of stealth, he/she will be visible for 2 seconds. That’s the attack window. Another way would be to use AOEs as a way to control the thief’s movement.

And I agree that there is 100% chance for adjustments, just not in the thief’s maneuverability like you hoped for.

ensoriki.5789:

When a thief attacks to lose stealth there is a timer… It’s a buff called reveal that makes all stealth attempts fail until it reduces. Play a thief and you’ll realize that.
In WvW the culling is a problem, in Spvp/tpvp less so.

They could increase the duration of Reveal in WvW and solely WvW to account for the culling.

To clarify. A timer that won’t let you restealth until a certain amount of time has happened after the last time you hit someone…or was hit by someone else.

Stealthing multiple times in the middle of a fight is the problem most people have issues with….culling aside, which I know is a problem.

kenshinakh.3672:

And I agree that there is 100% chance for adjustments, just not in the thief’s maneuverability like you hoped for.

Honestly, I am not hoping for any changes to Thiefs. I save my hopes for more important things in life !

Ah, that’s good to hear xD. I like how the thief is with its current mobility and stealth, and I feel it is pretty well made already. It makes me cringe a little when some ask to change that from just a few thief encounters :/.

Pragmatist.1349:

Hey there. My post/s will only concern Thief PVE issues.

Firstly, venom sharing (with leeching venoms) has potential to be a very good PVE support choice, the recent buff to leeching venoms is much apperciated. However i feel that the range of Venomous Aura is far too short for it to be viable in the vast majority of PVE situations. If everyone in your group is not recieving the venoms, then the spec is basically pointless. Also, I feel like the spec needs abit of a damage buff to be viable in PVE, perhaps you could add a trait in Deadly Arts which makes you damage a target whenever a venom is applied to it, this should ofcourse spread to party members whom you have venoms shared with, it should also scale with power or something. Some of the durations on the Venoms could also use a buff. I also find Basilisk Venom to be a very poor excuse for an elite skill, its only really useful in TPVP matches on venomsharing Thieves, for PVE its useless and needs to be reworked. The fact that Basilisk Venom is also our only underwater elite skill needs to be changed also.

Secondly, dual pistols could use a PVE damage buff, or perhaps some kindof buff to Ricochet in the Trickery traitline so the bullets bounce much more often. The recent change to the Body Shot cast timer was nice, but in PVE at the moment P/P is only really usable on ranged single target fights, which does not apply to many situations.

Thirdly, I feel that the 15% nerf to Pistol Whip was unjustified in PVE terms. As far as I can tell, its damage was only nerfed due to burst issues in pvp when stacked with Quickness/Haste against glass cannon players who do not take stunbreaks and do not learn to dodge perhaps the most predictable skill ingame (Pistol Whip). The damage should be refunded in PVE because at the moment you can do almost as much DPS autoattacking with the S/P combo. Pistol Whip is a dual skill that should out DPS autoattack by a decent margin. Black Powder on the pistol offhand is a great dungeon tool and should not be nerfed in any way.

Fourthly, I feel that Traps are very lacklustre at the moment. I have used each Trap maybe five times in PVE and overall I find that the Traps are not worth the utility slots.

Next, I think that Thief should be given an elite skill that when equipped provides a passive magic find and money drop boost to all party members, this obviously would not stack if other Thieves were in the party using the same elite skill because that would be overpowered. After all, arent Thieves supposed to be the ones that get the job done then bring back the loot?

Next, I would say that the Sword/Dagger combo is very poor for PVE, I only use it on the Mesmer boss in TA to remove her buffs.

I am glad you only implemented the Backstab nerfs in PVP, if they had been implemented in PVE also it would have destroyed crit daggers. However, I do not see why Dancing Dagger had its damage nerfed in both PVE and PVP, it was only an issue in PVP. The damage should be refunded in PVE.

I also feel that Sword should be available for use in the Offhand slot giving us another few weapon combos. Dual swords would be nice if designed well.

This guy has it spot on, i have thought about same suggestions while playing my thief. At least once a week i wonder to myself why we cant use dual swords….. i think that would me amazing.

I play a thief on SBI WVW player named Devine Syn my thoughts on what needs to be done to keep a thief a thief and get rid of the instagib builds .
1. cap backstab damage to 6k no matter the stacks, traits or boons are
2. the thief stealth debuff on combat should also apply when out of combat
3. the damage of dancing daggers should be increased by 25%
4. the elite skill venom should have a cast time reduction bloody rediculous running around trying to get it up
I think this would solve the problem but still keep the thief viable

I would like to be able to dead fire my cluster bomb without the game telling me that stuff is out of range.

Scenario 1…
I’m on top of a wall defending the front gate. I aim down at the players but I cannot shoot my cluster bomb because they are out of range.

I don’t need it to be in range, I just need to lob it over their heads so I can explode it and surely firing it down won’t put it out of range.

Really, any type of projectile isn’t going to be out of range when you are firing it downward. May not be accurate in some cases but it will still continue to go downward, the direction you fired it. It won’t stop till it hits the ground and I don’t think that really needs to be in range to fire a weapon downward.

Scenario 2…
I’m attacking a wall and trying to keep the defenders from being able to kill us while we attack the gate. I can hit them standing on top of the wall if they are brave enough to get close to the edge. I can hit the top of the wall itself. If I point it straight up with nothing but sky in my sights, I cannot fire because it is out of range. I would like to be able to shoot straight up and keep up suppressing fire by making the bombs explode at just over the top of the wall.

Scenario 3…
I’m shooting at the Shatterer and/or Tequatl but to use cluster bomb on it’s foot, I have to get fairly close to the dragon before it isn’t going to be out of range.

Cluster bomb is something that does not need a target to actually use because it fires a cluster that will hit something, so I should be able to fire it even if the game thinks I’m out of range. If people want the game to continue to tell them that something is out of range, then give me a option to tell the game to stop it for my character.

Forzani.2584:

ensoriki.5789:

When a thief attacks to lose stealth there is a timer… It’s a buff called reveal that makes all stealth attempts fail until it reduces. Play a thief and you’ll realize that.
In WvW the culling is a problem, in Spvp/tpvp

To clarify. A timer that won’t let you restealth until a certain amount of time has happened after the last time you hit someone…or was hit by someone else.
Stealthing multiple times in the middle of a fight is the problem most people have issues with….culling aside, which I know is a problem.

There IS a timer on it. When a Thief uses an attack skill while in stealth, and the attack connects and deals damage, the Thief is removed from stealth and given a 3 second “revealed” debuff, where any skill that grants stealth that is used in that time period will fail.
Comprende?

Forzani.2584:

ensoriki.5789:

When a thief attacks to lose stealth there is a timer… It’s a buff called reveal that makes all stealth attempts fail until it reduces. Play a thief and you’ll realize that.
In WvW the culling is a problem, in Spvp/tpvp less so.

They could increase the duration of Reveal in WvW and solely WvW to account for the culling.

To clarify. A timer that won’t let you restealth until a certain amount of time has happened after the last time you hit someone…or was hit by someone else.

Stealthing multiple times in the middle of a fight is the problem most people have issues with….culling aside, which I know is a problem.

I’d just like to point out that doing this would COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY destroy the Thief in ANY AND ALL PvE.

Also, “revealed” is more than enough.

Zunhar.4079:

Forzani.2584:

ensoriki.5789:

When a thief attacks to lose stealth there is a timer… It’s a buff called reveal that makes all stealth attempts fail until it reduces. Play a thief and you’ll realize that.
In WvW the culling is a problem, in Spvp/tpvp

To clarify. A timer that won’t let you restealth until a certain amount of time has happened after the last time you hit someone…or was hit by someone else.
Stealthing multiple times in the middle of a fight is the problem most people have issues with….culling aside, which I know is a problem.

There IS a timer on it. When a Thief uses an attack skill while in stealth, and the attack connects and deals damage, the Thief is removed from stealth and given a 3 second “revealed” debuff, where any skill that grants stealth that is used in that time period will fail.
Comprende?

Oh I comprende.

If a Thief is in combat, delivering damage and/or receiving damage, he shouldn’t be able to stealth. The timer to restealth should begin after he both stops attacking and stops taking damage.

Your idea of a timer(and Anet) is the Thief unstealths to wack someone. For 3 seconds he is hitting someone and likely being hit by others. During those 3 seconds he cant stealth. Timer is up, he can now restealth smack dab in the middle of a bunch of people hitting him. Correct ?

Auesis.7301:

Forzani.2584:

ensoriki.5789:

When a thief attacks to lose stealth there is a timer… It’s a buff called reveal that makes all stealth attempts fail until it reduces. Play a thief and you’ll realize that.
In WvW the culling is a problem, in Spvp/tpvp less so.

They could increase the duration of Reveal in WvW and solely WvW to account for the culling.

To clarify. A timer that won’t let you restealth until a certain amount of time has happened after the last time you hit someone…or was hit by someone else.

Stealthing multiple times in the middle of a fight is the problem most people have issues with….culling aside, which I know is a problem.

I’d just like to point out that doing this would COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY destroy the Thief in ANY AND ALL PvE.

Also, “revealed” is more than enough.

Which is a paradox all games that combine PvP and PvE have. I had an Assassin in Daoc and I know the damage went way down after the original stealth attack. Positionals helped but stealth attack was better. It is two different games within a game. Very difficult to balance one without hurting the other and vice versa.

Rukia.4802:

I’d call you a troll but I honestly do think you believe this. I guess dodging and stun breaks are hard to use. We only need to manage 4 utilities in GW2, seems even that isn’t linear enough for you kids. I haven’t been killed by a glass cannon thief 1on1 since I was new to the game.

Because we are all stacking armor and vitality because there are 50% thieves in every sPvP match.

My thief feels a lot weaker than he initially did, but I am certain this is because nobody but thieves runs low armor builds anymore and there is a recent spate of new Warriors which makes tanky classes a large portion of the 50% that isn’t thieves.

Anytime I want to nerd rage, I quit my Necro and hop onto my thief, get black-out drunk, and do fairly well in every single game.

I really love how the thief works, but the biggest issue i have is it is practically impossible to go melee to heavy armored classes. They can just spam aoe sword swings, it doesn’t matter if you stealth 6 times in the duel, guardians and warriors can just run around swinging their sword without a care because they know you aren’t a threat at all to them. I think the person who should win a duel between thief vs. warrior or thief vs. guardian should be the one with the most skill, not because one is naturally meant to dominate the other no matter what. I want to do more when I go to ninja a point and there is a guardian standing in the middle than shooting my dinky pistol or shortbow at him while he doesn’t even turn his head at me, even if i build pure dps.
I would like thieves to be able to actually win 1v1 fights against those pure tanks if they are more skillful as players. And please don’t assume i wasn’t dodge rolling at the right time or stealthing in and out right. i could blow all initiative and then some and they wouldn’t really give a care. I have done 1v1 versus warriors and guardians about 100 times already, and at this point i give up and try to just avoid them in matches.
It’s not right building full dps and only doing 2 times a tanks damage whereas they can tank more than 4 times the punishment you can. It doesn’t add up.

QSpec.4298:

Because we are all stacking armor and vitality because there are 50% thieves in every sPvP match.

Are we playing the same game? Every game I have played in the hotjoin spvp has had more warriors then thieves every since the 15th’s patch

Rukia.4802:

Thieves are being removed from the game, calling it now.

I hope they just totally change the profession into the assassin from GW1 like they should have done in the first place. Honestly, stealth is never a good idea in an MMO even though it’s far more balanced in GW2 than any other.

Stealth is far more balanced in GW2 then any other? Are you serious? WoW vs GW2, a class that can only stealth with skills for a limited time, can be broken out with DoTs or AoE. Vs a class that can invis whenever the thief pleases.

Please….

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Thieves are being removed from the game, calling it now.

I hope they just totally change the profession into the assassin from GW1 like they should have done in the first place. Honestly, stealth is never a good idea in an MMO even though it’s far more balanced in GW2 than any other.

Stealth is far more balanced in GW2 then any other? Are you serious? WoW vs GW2, a class that can only stealth with skills for a limited time, can be broken out with DoTs or AoE. Vs a class that can invis whenever the thief pleases.

Please….

Rogues have indefinite stealth and tons of defensive abilities, bro.

Thief is balanced completely around stealth unless you’re a unicorn thief, and rogue is balanced around plenty of survival tools outside of stealth. It’s totally different, but rogue also gets 3s vanishes that act the same way as GW2 stealth except they have way more abilities like 4s stun, a long dot, burst damage, sap, etc.

Rukia.4802:

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Thieves are being removed from the game, calling it now.

I hope they just totally change the profession into the assassin from GW1 like they should have done in the first place. Honestly, stealth is never a good idea in an MMO even though it’s far more balanced in GW2 than any other.

Stealth is far more balanced in GW2 then any other? Are you serious? WoW vs GW2, a class that can only stealth with skills for a limited time, can be broken out with DoTs or AoE. Vs a class that can invis whenever the thief pleases.

Please….

Rogues have indefinite stealth and tons of defensive abilities, bro.

Thief is balanced completely around stealth unless you’re a unicorn thief, and rogue is balanced around plenty of survival tools outside of stealth. It’s totally different, but rogue also gets 3s vanishes that act the same way as GW2 stealth except they have way more abilities like 4s stun, a long dot, burst damage, sap, etc.

Indefinite stealth to set up an attack, after that, 3s vanish is a lot better then perma stealth builds in gw2. Culling issues adds to it, no doubt. But you can DoT them OUT of invisbility, thief? no. It doesn’t even matter to them.

A long dot? fine, burst damage(Already have as a thief), sap, fine. 4 second stun? I’d prefer a 4 second stun then a thief you just cannot see. I’m sorry but Thief is absolutely over powered compared to a rogue. So your previous comment is a joke.

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Thieves are being removed from the game, calling it now.

I hope they just totally change the profession into the assassin from GW1 like they should have done in the first place. Honestly, stealth is never a good idea in an MMO even though it’s far more balanced in GW2 than any other.

Stealth is far more balanced in GW2 then any other? Are you serious? WoW vs GW2, a class that can only stealth with skills for a limited time, can be broken out with DoTs or AoE. Vs a class that can invis whenever the thief pleases.

Please….

Rogues have indefinite stealth and tons of defensive abilities, bro.

Thief is balanced completely around stealth unless you’re a unicorn thief, and rogue is balanced around plenty of survival tools outside of stealth. It’s totally different, but rogue also gets 3s vanishes that act the same way as GW2 stealth except they have way more abilities like 4s stun, a long dot, burst damage, sap, etc.

Indefinite stealth to set up an attack, after that, 3s vanish is a lot better then perma stealth builds in gw2. Culling issues adds to it, no doubt. But you can DoT them OUT of invisbility, thief? no. It doesn’t even matter to them.

A long dot? fine, burst damage(Already have as a thief), sap, fine. 4 second stun? I’d prefer a 4 second stun then a thief you just cannot see. I’m sorry but Thief is absolutely over powered compared to a rogue. So your previous comment is a joke.

I disagree. I play both games and even the sorry pathetic state rogues are in right now they are still less balanced than the GW2 thief. But we should probably stop arguing off topic or we’ll both get infracted.

Rukia.4802:

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Thieves are being removed from the game, calling it now.

I hope they just totally change the profession into the assassin from GW1 like they should have done in the first place. Honestly, stealth is never a good idea in an MMO even though it’s far more balanced in GW2 than any other.

Stealth is far more balanced in GW2 then any other? Are you serious? WoW vs GW2, a class that can only stealth with skills for a limited time, can be broken out with DoTs or AoE. Vs a class that can invis whenever the thief pleases.

Please….

Rogues have indefinite stealth and tons of defensive abilities, bro.

Thief is balanced completely around stealth unless you’re a unicorn thief, and rogue is balanced around plenty of survival tools outside of stealth. It’s totally different, but rogue also gets 3s vanishes that act the same way as GW2 stealth except they have way more abilities like 4s stun, a long dot, burst damage, sap, etc.

Indefinite stealth to set up an attack, after that, 3s vanish is a lot better then perma stealth builds in gw2. Culling issues adds to it, no doubt. But you can DoT them OUT of invisbility, thief? no. It doesn’t even matter to them.

A long dot? fine, burst damage(Already have as a thief), sap, fine. 4 second stun? I’d prefer a 4 second stun then a thief you just cannot see. I’m sorry but Thief is absolutely over powered compared to a rogue. So your previous comment is a joke.

I disagree. I play both games and even the sorry pathetic state rogues are in right now they are still less balanced than the GW2 thief. But we should probably stop arguing off topic or we’ll both get infracted.

Back on topic, I just don’t see the point of having stealth in the game as is, I agree that thiefs should have some sort of stealth ability, but the amount of times they can stealth(with the culling issue) within a short period is over powered. I also believe the class in general is over powered even without stealth, but even removing stealth as its current state would make all the over powered statements dull down.

i play an asura P/P thief in pve. so these changes could be pve only buffs to stop pvp whiners.

make pistols have 1200 base range with out using traits so we can atleast be a true ranged build.
same for short bow make all skills 1200 like the #2 skill. even if its just a pve only change as i understand the 900 range for pvp reasons. but as we have seen you are able to apply “nerfs” to pvp only side of the game so makes sense u can “buff” pve side only of the game.

i dont understand why ppl say gw2 is a "pvp"game when there is more pve cotnent then pvp content atm.

P/P damage could be buffed for pve mostly vital shot. its very lackluster direct dmg and bad bleed applying and apperntly to slow for what its ment to be.

bodyshot could be changed to a snare/cripple so that it becomes worth using

unload could do with a PVE dmg increase

headshot is in a good place for utility

black powder is far to expensive for a utility maybe bring it down to 3 int in PVE only.

now also as an asura when using certain pistols like the glyphic pistols or asura tier 1 culture pistol when we fire a shot the bullet does not fire out of the muzzle it fires high above our heads and is very annoying.

also for unload animation for asura. the muzzle flash on mainhand is fine but for the off hand its firing from half way inside the pistol.

I love the fast paced playstyle of the thief with the combination of stealth and acrobatics. I haven’t enjoyed a class as much as I have with Thief in any other game. The only issues I have currently are with some of their weapon choices mostly. It seems that Thieves don’t get as much versatility in terms of weapons as some other classes do. In my eyes it would seem to make sense if they could at least use more melee weps seeing as how they are a “grab anything and use it as a weapon” type class. As far as the current weapon sets are concerned, sword/pistol and sword/dagger are two sets i feel could use a re work. Sword/pistol seems pretty boring, yes it offers pretty good utility, but the fact that pretty much all of it’s damage comes from “pistol whip” seems a bit boring and if you miss with that ability you can’t do much to make up for it, making it almost mandatory to have “haste” as a utility skill when using it. The other set I feel could be looked at is sword dagger. The only issues I really have with that set are it’s third ability, which seems to not always spin you around close enough to actually hit your target. I feel as though sword on a thief could have some type of block to it. Also in comparison to the other weapon sets it doesn’t appear to do nearly as much damage. Not sure if this was intentional or not, but I feel like the damage output could be increased a bit due to the swords slow attack speed. Other than those things however, I love the class, especially the steal mechanic and the other things I mentioned above.

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Thieves are being removed from the game, calling it now.

I hope they just totally change the profession into the assassin from GW1 like they should have done in the first place. Honestly, stealth is never a good idea in an MMO even though it’s far more balanced in GW2 than any other.

Stealth is far more balanced in GW2 then any other? Are you serious? WoW vs GW2, a class that can only stealth with skills for a limited time, can be broken out with DoTs or AoE. Vs a class that can invis whenever the thief pleases.

Please….

Rogues have indefinite stealth and tons of defensive abilities, bro.

Thief is balanced completely around stealth unless you’re a unicorn thief, and rogue is balanced around plenty of survival tools outside of stealth. It’s totally different, but rogue also gets 3s vanishes that act the same way as GW2 stealth except they have way more abilities like 4s stun, a long dot, burst damage, sap, etc.

Indefinite stealth to set up an attack, after that, 3s vanish is a lot better then perma stealth builds in gw2. Culling issues adds to it, no doubt. But you can DoT them OUT of invisbility, thief? no. It doesn’t even matter to them.

A long dot? fine, burst damage(Already have as a thief), sap, fine. 4 second stun? I’d prefer a 4 second stun then a thief you just cannot see. I’m sorry but Thief is absolutely over powered compared to a rogue. So your previous comment is a joke.

I disagree. I play both games and even the sorry pathetic state rogues are in right now they are still less balanced than the GW2 thief. But we should probably stop arguing off topic or we’ll both get infracted.

Back on topic, I just don’t see the point of having stealth in the game as is, I agree that thiefs should have some sort of stealth ability, but the amount of times they can stealth(with the culling issue) within a short period is over powered. I also believe the class in general is over powered even without stealth, but even removing stealth as its current state would make all the over powered statements dull down.

If you really think that, go sPvP, and do not use any stealthing at all while using D/D. Then play sPvP and use stealth. Do this while specced glass cannon.

After that, you’ll see the point of having stealth. The only issue with stealth is the culling issue in WvW. Other than that, stealth on thief is very well balanced. Unlike Rogues in WoW, you can’t camp and wait. And unlike WoW, GW2 has a LOT more AOE attacks. Also, Rogues in WoW are known for stealthing in hitting you blindside. Thief is completely different. They don’t have perma stealth and the stealth duration is very short requiring you to think fast.

Having stealth in the game is just another defensive/offensive mechanism, and for thieves (which are the squishiest class), it’s a must. (And if you remove it, the mesmers are going to be in a tight spot about not being able to effectively fight using clones and stealthing..)

I am late for this , i doubt i will say anything that wasn’t already said but…
Here are my observations as a thief doing mostly spvp since the release.

I’m at r40 currently, doesn’t make me a pro it’s not the point, it means i had a lot of time to evaluate my own class.

I think i figured the BS Build since day two or three, true it wasn’t hard to just pack up with everything that hit the hardest.

Over the last months i’ve seen arise more and more smart players playing a lot better than they used to as opposed as how i would exterminate anyone at the start.
As a thief too i can easily survive a BS burst if my roll for initiative is up, otherwise it’s true most of the time i’m dead meat but, as a glass canon i try to avoid situations that would leave me with no choice but sit and endure, so it really doesn’t happen a lot of time.
As i got destroyed a few times too by the very same build i use, i can tell you i also died as fast to some warriors, mesmers, eles and necros, even a few engies gave me a hell of a hard time. And it’s not a question of toughness or vitality, it’s a question of positioning, awareness of which foe is where on the map, saving the oh kitten buttons for when you really need it and so forth.
From what i can tell now, there is not a single class that doesn’t have anything in stock to prevent getting instagibbed within the 4 seconds of my haste. Even rangers, with skills like protect me and such, so please anyone, avoid trying to get the monopoly of suffering it’s just dishonest.
Actually the easiest class to destroy with that build is eventually the thief class, considering so many of them still rely on 22222222222. Except this, anyone who isn’t packing any defensive will die and i’m really sorry but it’s how it should be, as much as i die in secondswhen exhausted and still sitting in the heat of the battle while i should at the very least lineback with my shortbow if not gone for a safer node.

Now for the review of the thief class itself, here are my observations :

First of all i figured very soon that spvp was all about who can endure the most / who can burst the most. This is how the dynamics are in spvp, and as long as it will, i will stick with this build.
I tried many times to go for something else, dual pistols, pistol / dagger, dagger / pistol, not a fan of sword myself but as it stands it’s the only dcent alternative to dagger/dagger.
Sure i managed to get something out of those other builds but they were in no way as effective as the BS build.

As a BS thief i can burst and immediately switch on my shortbow, which is actually my main weapon, and reposition as fast as i came in because BS doesn’t consume much initiative, which i use then mostly for infiltrator’s arrow. Repositionning. Something that eludes sooo many players in spvp.
I don’t stay and spam HS, as a matter of fact i think i use HS 2-3 times a match at most, maybe a bit more since the C&D nerf.

I would so love to be able to run an efficient build that involves pistols but the trade off is way too huge. Huge loss of damage capacity for about the same survivability, except your foe will absolutely not die if he’s a minimum decent, so you will still be showered with death like fire on paper.

Why ?
Because either you spec with about the same traits, doing the same rotation just to end up with just a subpar BS build, replacing BS with Sneak Attack, dealing about half the damage, a part of it being DoT which is so easily cured, and guess what, you still rely so much on haste to do anything decent anyway.
Either you try to capitalize on bleeding and you get to lose so much direct damage you can’t even kill a mesmer clone within 5 seconds, for a petty bleeding stack that gets of in 4 seconds with which you can count on vital shot to fail to keep stacked.
Sure i’ve played the stealth game and reapplied sneak attack everytime i’m no longer revealed, but it’s just mind blowing how weak you end up, like you’re a glass canon without the canon part.

(more)

Anyway from here i’ll try to sum up :

-The current dynamics force thieves to rely on heavy burst because no matter what you’re still one of the most fragile classes out there, and trying to play anything that a ranger or a warrior does better ends with terrible consequences.
As in, trying to spec deep into pistols, for instance, or anything that rely on you staying out in the open to keep the pressure up, where a sneeze will put you down.

-It’s been a long time since any decent player figured how to protect themselves against a mindless BS burst. I think any capable thief out there will agree with me when i say shortbows are our actual main weapons, we switch on D/D when we managed to create the right opportunity to use it.

-Pistols. You want more diversity, then do something about it. At the very least increase the bleeding duration of vital shot and sneak attack, but, also, you should consider increasing the base attack speed of vital shot, if not of the whole pistol skills.

-HS. I am at a loss of word when, after all this time i still can see most of my fellow thieves relying on 2222222222222 and still get good results from it. It’s just plain sad.
You make weak skills like unload empty your initiative bar in no time, but you still haven’t considered increasing the initiative cost of HS ? 3 Initative, come on… I don’t know how to put it, just, don’t let them turn into spam bots, it’s bad for your game’s reputation. Make it cost 5. Make it a real finish move, that you have to use at the right time.

-Finally : trait distribution forces us into huge bursts revolving around quickness. Don’t invest into lethal arts or critical strikes and you lose so much damage you aren’t even a threat for any minion, clone or pet, out there.
Stacking DoT as in putting 30 points into trickery is just plain stupid since, yes, you will get a boost on your DoTs but the bonus that come with are just so not adapated to a DoT build : why in the world would i want an initiative bonus on a pistol build where my only decent attack, sneak attack, doesn’t cost any ?
This is SO important to me, a lot more than debating of anything else about thieves, the trait distribution is NOT adapted.
There is no way i’d put 30 points, not even 20, into either acobatics, shadow arts or trickery because it comes with a huge damage sacrifice for choosing survivability or DoTS, which in the end does NOT apply since you aren’t made to stay and fight, and the longer you stay in a fight, the more you actually LOSE survivability despite thinking you spec’d for it.
Please if you read anything, this is what you should have.

I could go on for some time but i think i’ll stop here for now, looking forward to see what you will bring on the table for us thieves.

kenshinakh.3672:

Having stealth in the game is just another defensive/offensive mechanism, and for thieves (which are the squishiest class), it’s a must. (And if you remove it, the mesmers are going to be in a tight spot about not being able to effectively fight using clones and stealthing..)

Mesmers can also use stealth, not for long mind you, but around corners or mid battle, you can be fighting 3 clones and the Mesmer legged it with his Glamor stealth, sure it’s only 3 seconds but you don’t exactly focus on the surroundings and players who are running away vs 3 guys beating into you and giving you confusion and other fun conditions who you gonna call? The Mesmer can knock you down, cripple you (if the placement was just right), stealth and teleport instantly (non of this Infiltrator’s arrow delay) 900 whatever-units away. Mind you this uses up all his utilities, but the Mesmer does at least have a full useful weapon set of skills. So what was that about only class able to get out of a losing fight?

Further, in WvW and PvE everyone has access to stealth (or maybe it’s just rangers and thieves, I haven’t noticed this that I remember with other classes) when you pick up a tuft of feathers from the ground. Sure it’s only 3 seconds, but a Warrior can cover a lot of ground in 3 seconds and a Elementalist can channel all of Dragon Fang in that time, and again all it takes is good positioning and it’s brilliantly powerful, a brilliant tactical action. Should black powder not stealth anyone but the thief? It has no range on how far you can go from the AoE before the stealth runs out (to my knowledge) and stealth doesn’t break till you actually hit someone (again allowing for channeling or fun gap closers) so yeah, if you nerf stealth, does tat include all the strategic plays a thief can do as support? Everyone keeps talking about glass canon builds, but all classes can do support, a rune of water, SB and haste and just using utilities you can be the best support, want you’re whole team to disappear? Done. Sure it has limits, but all classes have limits…except Warriors, I haven’t seen the limit to having all the armor and weapons yet, but I digress.

If you want to nerf any ability you have to look at “EVERY” permutation of it’s use. If you keep crippling stealth then the thief looses much of his support potential and all we have left is second best damage spikes and a small weapon pool and the Mesmer loses a utility, Ranger pet pig has less objects he can find and the environmental weapons are only sticks (seriously I only see feathers and sticks, Blind/Stealth and Knockback, which are the effects that are least prolific across normal weapon sets, is it not? [sarcasm] Wow the developers must have noticed that too [\sarcasm]).

(gotta stop editing this post to fix spelling mistakes, I just keep adding to it)

Wickedluck.9248:

2. the thief stealth debuff on combat should also apply when out of combat

I’m not sure what you want here. The “revealed” debuff activates when a thief hits something while stealthed. If you’re not in combat, there’s nothing to hit.

Forzani.2584:

If a Thief is in combat, delivering damage and/or receiving damage, he shouldn’t be able to stealth. The timer to restealth should begin after he both stops attacking and stops taking damage.

Pretty much makes stealth an opener ability and completely unusable in combat. Would require a major retuning of the profession to change mechanics that drastically.

Stealth doesn’t break when taking damage, why should taking damage prevent stealthing?

I believe Thief is currently in a good place, like Warriors.
Damage is adjusted now, there isn’t much else to do beside fixing bugs.

I hate games like WoW where classes are continuously, incessantly, irritatingly overhauled every single patch.
I’m happy Anet is just fixing damage, and I don’t want any change to my class’ mechanics.

This damage, all in 2 seconds, should not be possible with my stats PERIOD no matter what you say.

That’s 18,804 damage in 2 seconds, yea this class/build is fine lol

You were attacked by a glass cannon, and it seems you’re a glassy guardian? Look at your crit chance. That is nearly as high as a thief glass cannons and guardians have pretty big base health to start with, but you only have 18k.

So yes, I agree with you that the class/build is fine. You just need to change your gear with more toughness/vitality stats and you’ll survive a regular burst without a sweat.

kenshinakh.3672:

guardians have pretty big base health to start with

Guardians have “low” base health, same as a thief.

Looks like you’re running mostly glass cannon gear since you have high power and critical chance and not even 16k health and here you are, crying that you lost. He even hit you with 2 Heartseekers several seconds apart from all the other damage and you didn’t dodge or heal in between any of it. The opening damage was around 13k which on any glass cannon is near death already. If you had some more vitality then the burst would have been far less WTF on you and you probably would have recovered at that point and beaten the Thief or he’d have ran away. Then again he looks like he has at least a few friends with him anyway, so either way, you were probably dead.

If you want to run glass cannon, or some hybrid cannon with 1500 more HP like I see a lot of people do, then prepare to die, that’s just how it is. But please stop coming into topics to cry how you lost, and post screenshots of how dead you were because you screwed up. Learn from it, improve yourself and try again later.

Also ProTip! Did you know that if you walk toward a Thief that decides that 2222222 is the best way to kitten and you pass through him between the point where Heartseeker leaps and when it hits, you won’t get hit at all? It’s hard to time, but Heartseeker won’t track you once it leaves the ground so passing through him while he’s in midair means the skill will miss once he actually lands. For fun times you can just hit W/S to watch a Thief leap frog back and forth over you, hitting nothing. Shhh don’t tell anybody or they might fix it!

StugLyfe.2134:

This damage, all in 2 seconds, should not be possible with my stats PERIOD no matter what you say.

That’s 18,804 damage in 2 seconds, yea this class/build is fine lol

A warrior gunned down all 16 thousand of my health in about 2 seconds, somehow I refrained from rushing to the Warriors board to complain about how unfair it is that I died! You should try and exercise the same kind of restraint and maybe take accountability for losing. You’re a glass cannon guardian dying to glass cannon thief, just because you died doesn’t make it unfair.

Mandrew.2853:

I really love how the thief works, but the biggest issue i have is it is practically impossible to go melee to heavy armored classes. They can just spam aoe sword swings, it doesn’t matter if you stealth 6 times in the duel, guardians and warriors can just run around swinging their sword without a care because they know you aren’t a threat at all to them.

This hasn’t been my experience (WvW, mainly). Getting caught by one of their stronger attacks sucks for the thief, but they’re not too bad to control with Sword/Dagger. Harder than rangers, engies, necros, but rather easy compared to fighting mesmers, thieves, or a good D/D ele.

In one-on-one-ish circumstances, I soften them up a little from range, because I personally am pretty bad at melee. This also lets me get a feel for how “tanky” they actually are.

Might this just be the tradeoff between S/D and D/D? Seems like D/D can spike way faster than I can but has a harder time grinding down people it can’t spike.

krixis.9538:

black powder is far to expensive for a utility maybe bring it down to 3 int in PVE only.

You’re crazy. Black Powder wins most of PvE. Just, like, by itself. And it can be kept up continuously as-is.

Aratoa.7398:

StugLyfe.2134:

This damage, all in 2 seconds, should not be possible with my stats PERIOD no matter what you say.

That’s 18,804 damage in 2 seconds, yea this class/build is fine lol

A warrior gunned down all 16 thousand of my health in about 2 seconds, somehow I refrained from rushing to the Warriors board to complain about how unfair it is that I died! You should try and exercise the same kind of restraint and maybe take accountability for losing. You’re a glass cannon guardian dying to glass cannon thief, just because you died doesn’t make it unfair.

If a warrior specs for it and goes full berzerker just kill shot can hit more then 16k in wvw and besides the cast time its instant, at least with the thief you have a chance to react if they sneak up on you.

There’s nothing wrong with the thief class, there’s just some stuff wrong with what it’s able to do right now. Fix those and the class is fine.

Played several duels vs a thief today, me as a ranger. I run a defensive build, just to be able to withstand at least some damage. Or so I thought.

Here’s how almost every duel played out:

Thief going stealth → first attack takes a large chunk of health, I’m stunned and can’t really do anything. Manage to get away, trying to land cripple, pet knockdown, traps, in short everything I have at my disposal. If I’m lucky I can manage to get away a few yards. Thief goes stealth again, and next attack that hits me and I’m down.

This goes on for a few rounds. I’m trying different skills, different traits, different weapons, different pets, nothing seems to help me in any way. I can’t outrun the thief, he’s always in my face. I can’t outdamage in melee, not even close. I can’t cc enough to keep my distance. I can’t put enough traps to do any significant damage, he seems to be able to loose all conditions I put on him easily. I’m lucky if I can get him down to half health before he’s bursted my sorry azz to the ground, again and again and again.

It was a useful lesson for sure. L2P? Indeed, I need to improve. But, even when I burn everything I have at my disposal, 90% of the time I’m not even close. Not even the entangle elite skill can keep the thief off of me – he simply entered stealth again and slipped passed my 150 second cd elite.

In one game, both of us got to the downed state (he must’ve been slackin’!), and I though now I can outlast him! But hell no, even when I called my pet to “lick wounds”, all the while I tossed throw dirt and thunderclap at him, he won that duel as well.

L2P? Possibly.
OP? Imho – without a doubt, at least vs rangers.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Played several duels vs a thief today, me as a ranger. I run a defensive build, just to be able to withstand at least some damage. Or so I thought.

Here’s how almost every duel played out:

Thief going stealth -> first attack takes a large chunk of health, I’m stunned and can’t really do anything. Manage to get away, trying to land cripple, pet knockdown, traps, in short everything I have at my disposal. If I’m lucky I can manage to get away a few yards. Thief goes stealth again, and next attack that hits me and I’m down.

This goes on for a few rounds. I’m trying different skills, different traits, different weapons, different pets, nothing seems to help me in any way. I can’t outrun the thief, he’s always in my face. I can’t outdamage in melee, not even close. I can’t cc enough to keep my distance. I can’t put enough traps to do any significant damage, he seems to be able to loose all conditions I put on him easily. I’m lucky if I can get him down to half health before he’s bursted my sorry azz to the ground, again and again and again.

It was a useful lesson for sure. L2P? Indeed, I need to improve. But, even when I burn everything I have at my disposal, 90% of the time I’m not even close. Not even the entangle elite skill can keep the thief off of me – he simply entered stealth again and slipped passed my 150 second cd elite.

In one game, both of us got to the downed state (he must’ve been slackin’!), and I though now I can outlast him! But hell no, even when I called my pet to “lick wounds”, all the while I tossed throw dirt and thunderclap at him, he won that duel as well.

L2P? Possibly.
OP? Imho – without a doubt, at least vs rangers.

Trait for protection. (3.5 Protection every time you dodge with boon duration lol..)
Use Greatsword/Shortbow
Use a Ranged Pet with a lot of Immobilizes/Snares.
Use skills like channal that track your target.
Also, make sure to use Rampage as One, and when you see a thief roll immediately when he reaches a shortbow firing range, the first thing a thief ever does is steal.

Rukia.4802:

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Thieves are being removed from the game, calling it now.

I hope they just totally change the profession into the assassin from GW1 like they should have done in the first place. Honestly, stealth is never a good idea in an MMO even though it’s far more balanced in GW2 than any other.

Stealth is far more balanced in GW2 then any other? Are you serious? WoW vs GW2, a class that can only stealth with skills for a limited time, can be broken out with DoTs or AoE. Vs a class that can invis whenever the thief pleases.

Please….

Rogues have indefinite stealth and tons of defensive abilities, bro.

Thief is balanced completely around stealth unless you’re a unicorn thief, and rogue is balanced around plenty of survival tools outside of stealth. It’s totally different, but rogue also gets 3s vanishes that act the same way as GW2 stealth except they have way more abilities like 4s stun, a long dot, burst damage, sap, etc.

Indefinitely stealth vs unbreakable stealth with many bonuses such as condition cleansing (even the base heal stealth cleanses all DOTS), movement speed, regen, as well as having multiple opener options.

As well the thief can be in a single spec and be useful in most areas of the game and both AOE and single target damage. As well the thief is much more escapeable and tons more mobile. Thieves also have a multitude of defensive skills, most just don’t use more than 1 or 2. Their inherent stealthing and mobility abilities make them not need to.

Don’t cherry pick X vs Y. It doesn’t work that way.

Ralathar.7236:

Rukia.4802:

Cloud.7613:

Rukia.4802:

Thieves are being removed from the game, calling it now.

I hope they just totally change the profession into the assassin from GW1 like they should have done in the first place. Honestly, stealth is never a good idea in an MMO even though it’s far more balanced in GW2 than any other.

Stealth is far more balanced in GW2 then any other? Are you serious? WoW vs GW2, a class that can only stealth with skills for a limited time, can be broken out with DoTs or AoE. Vs a class that can invis whenever the thief pleases.

Please….

Rogues have indefinite stealth and tons of defensive abilities, bro.

Thief is balanced completely around stealth unless you’re a unicorn thief, and rogue is balanced around plenty of survival tools outside of stealth. It’s totally different, but rogue also gets 3s vanishes that act the same way as GW2 stealth except they have way more abilities like 4s stun, a long dot, burst damage, sap, etc.

Indefinitely stealth vs unbreakable stealth with many bonuses such as condition cleansing (even the base heal stealth cleanses all DOTS), movement speed, regen, as well as having multiple opener options.

As well the thief can be in a single spec and be useful in most areas of the game and both AOE and single target damage. As well the thief is much more escapeable and tons more mobile. Thieves also have a multitude of defensive skills, most just don’t use more than 1 or 2. Their inherent stealthing and mobility abilities make them not need to.

Don’t cherry pick X vs Y. It doesn’t work that way.

These 30/30/30/30/30 Specs are out of control…