Guild Wars 2

I say it again:

Mug is the problem. Too powerful, boring to use and makes Steal → CnD → Backstab way to powerful.

My idea: Change mug to a short daze (or just remove it completely) and reverse the CnD-nerf.

Mug is really the problem: A high damage ability with 45 second cooldown, which doesn’t use a Utility-slot, is completely broken.

To give us something back for this nerf you could lower the cooldown of steal drastically (25? seconds) but also nerf the abilities you get with it (Just nerf the duration of all boons, debuffs and abilities by 50% maybe?).

This would also be a nice buff for squishy Dagger/Dagger which just get completely destroyed in teamfights if they used their Steal → CnD → Backstab combo. Stealth is just a kinda kitten defensive abilities with all the AE that gets thrown around. As squishy Dagger/Dagger you have to go in, kill something and out. Also against better players you are usually fried if you don’t have steal ready The change would make the frontburst less but the sustain in a combat better, just because you can make the combo more often.

Teabaker.9524:

I say it again:

Mug is the problem. Too powerful, boring to use and makes Steal -> CnD -> Backstab way to powerful.

My idea: Change mug to a short daze (or just remove it completely) and reverse the CnD-nerf.

Mug is really the problem: A high damage ability with 45 second cooldown, which doesn’t use a Utility-slot, is completely broken.

To give us something back for this nerf you could lower the cooldown of steal drastically (25? seconds) but also nerf the abilities you get with it (Just nerf the duration of all boons, debuffs and abilities by 50% maybe?).

This would also be a nice buff for squishy Dagger/Dagger which just get completely destroyed in teamfights if they used their Steal -> CnD -> Backstab combo. Stealth is just a kinda kitten defensive abilities with all the AE that gets thrown around. As squishy Dagger/Dagger you have to go in, kill something and out. Also against better players you are usually fried if you don’t have steal ready The change would make the frontburst less but the sustain in a combat better, just because you can make the combo more often.

Well, We don’t have anything else besides good burst damage, might as well take that away and destroy the class.

Its already hard enough trying to kill a bunker, if we don’t kill them before they load up on boons then we lose.

Look folks it’s real simple. In a character thieves have:

Damage:
High single target burst damage
Good single target damage
Moderate to good AOE damage

No weak point on damage. They can do some of the best single target damage in the game consistently and have even higher burst from stealth. Yet they remain capable at dealing AOE damage if need be.

Stealth:
spammable stealth
stealth that doesn’t break upon taking damages
stealth that provides additional benefits just for being stealthed
A group stealth/heal with a long duration commonly used to stealth themselves

Stealth, while not infinite, is usable more or less at will and cannot be broken. Stealth drops conditions, keeping in mind merely using the heal to enter stealth drops all bleeding/poison/burning. Mobility does not decrease at all during stealth, it can actually increase leading to an easy 1,200 units or more covered within a couple seconds.

Shadow Refuge is also amazing for solo/group stealth and while many might say “they know exactly where to find you” AOE’s can easily be avoided within the circle (and most AOE has a good cast time, you can also use that “he must be here” against them and gain one tick and use one of your other stealth options.

Movement:
The best mobility in the game
More mobility options than they even use because they do not need them all
Mobility options that they currently do not properly exploit, it’s not needed currently

Mobility combos with stealth and the options seem nearly endless. Perma 25% move speed (Signet of Shadow), Infiltrator’s strike (and return), shadow step (and return), infiltrators arrow, Steal/mug, Infiltrator’s Signet, Shadow Trap, even heartseeker strike adds alot of mobility.

Heck people don’t even have to take advantage of the thief’s evasive roll skills because stealth + extremely high mobility using other things.

Survivability:
Moderate survivability (compare glass cannon thief to glass cannon anything else)
The ability to avoid zergs
The ability to evade ganks
The ability to bail mid fight from nearly any fight that starts to go bad. Repeatedly without having to wait on any long timers.

While on paper thief seems squishy in practice their mobility and stealth actually makes them more survivable than any but the heavy armor users. Even then it’s a tradeoff. My toughness warrior for example can take loads of its, but my toughness thief many times outlives him because I can avoid all those hits while still doing my job. My thief can actually be more brazen knowing that he has a get out of jail free card awaiting him, whilst my warrior must more carefully weigh the risks and time to retreat.

Likewise this translates over to glass cannon. While fairly easy to down if CC and focuses, thieves are rather difficult to pin down and can choose their fights alot better so they tend to easily outlive other glass cannons.

All of this in a single character. It’s obviously not balanced. It’s a situation of too many advantages all at once. Their one weak point is supposed to be they are easy to squish, but they are actually harder to kill than other glass cannons while providing competitive or higher damage and possessing many other advantages over others.

Ralathar.7236:

Look folks it’s real simple. In a character thieves have:

Damage:
High single target burst damage
Good single target damage
Moderate to good AOE damage.

Warriors, Necromancers, Elementalist, Engineers can get permament 33% Movement Speed, compared to Thieves 25%.

No weak point on damage. They can do some of the best single target damage in the game consistently and have even higher burst from stealth. Yet they remain capable at dealing AOE damage if need be.

Stealth:
spammable stealth
stealth that doesn’t break upon taking damages
stealth that provides additional benefits just for being stealthed
A group stealth/heal with a long duration commonly used to stealth themselves

Stealth, while not infinite, is usable more or less at will and cannot be broken. Stealth drops conditions, keeping in mind merely using the heal to enter stealth drops all bleeding/poison/burning. Mobility does not decrease at all during stealth, it can actually increase leading to an easy 1,200 units or more covered within a couple seconds.

Shadow Refuge is also amazing for solo/group stealth and while many might say “they know exactly where to find you” AOE’s can easily be avoided within the circle (and most AOE has a good cast time, you can also use that “he must be here” against them and gain one tick and use one of your other stealth options.

Movement:
The best mobility in the game
More mobility options than they even use because they do not need them all
Mobility options that they currently do not properly exploit, it’s not needed currently

Mobility combos with stealth and the options seem nearly endless. Perma 25% move speed (Signet of Shadow), Infiltrator’s strike (and return), shadow step (and return), infiltrators arrow, Steal/mug, Infiltrator’s Signet, Shadow Trap, even heartseeker strike adds alot of mobility.

Heck people don’t even have to take advantage of the thief’s evasive roll skills because stealth + extremely high mobility using other things.

Survivability:
Moderate survivability (compare glass cannon thief to glass cannon anything else)
The ability to avoid zergs
The ability to evade ganks
The ability to bail mid fight from nearly any fight that starts to go bad. Repeatedly without having to wait on any long timers.

While on paper thief seems squishy in practice their mobility and stealth actually makes them more survivable than any but the heavy armor users. Even then it’s a tradeoff. My toughness warrior for example can take loads of its, but my toughness thief many times outlives him because I can avoid all those hits while still doing my job. My thief can actually be more brazen knowing that he has a get out of jail free card awaiting him, whilst my warrior must more carefully weigh the risks and time to retreat.

Likewise this translates over to glass cannon. While fairly easy to down if CC and focuses, thieves are rather difficult to pin down and can choose their fights alot better so they tend to easily outlive other glass cannons.

All of this in a single character. It’s obviously not balanced. It’s a situation of too many advantages all at once. Their one weak point is supposed to be they are easy to squish, but they are actually harder to kill than other glass cannons while providing competitive or higher damage and possessing many other advantages over others.

I stopped reading when I heard “High AOE Damage”, “Best Mobility”.

Short-bow is our only AOE weapon and its the slowest weapon in the game. (The velocity speed of the arrows are so slow you might as well give the abilities 6 second cool-downs, in melee range it does high damage but LOL, you might as well switch to sword, the autoattack out damages Short Bow’s Clusterbomb.)

Elementalists and Warriors out-perform us in Mobility.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9wpx9ccsocb

Here is basicly the run down for what every thief gets besides condition thieves.
We have 15 points left for anything else. (good luck.)

Daecollo.9578:

I stopped reading when I heard “High AOE Damage”

Excuse me? You even quoted me as saying moderate to good AOE damage. That’s not high by any means. Moderate meaning passable.

“Best Mobility”

Thief does have, if not the best mobility in the game, then close to it. Elementalist can likely travel a little faster, but they are also far more vulnerable to CC’s of various types. All the more so since this requires them to use 2-3 utility skill just for movement and compared on straight movement they don’t beat a thief by much.

Spammable teleport that works full distance through cripple and immobilize, condition removal during stealth, Passive 25% movement that doesn’t require you to be in a certain attunement, etc.

Stealth heal curing poison/bleed/fire…

Yes, your stealth heal does that. Learn your class. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows . I specifically refered to using the heal to enter stealth.

Short-bow is our only AOE weapon and its the slowest weapon in the game. (The velocity speed of the arrows are so slow you might as well give the abilities 6 second cool-downs, in melee range it does high damage but LOL, you might as well switch to sword, the autoattack out damages Short Bow’s Clusterbomb.)

Arrows are slow, this is why it’s moderate to good. Moderate meaning you have passable AOE damage. It’s not negligible by any means. It’s better if your condition spec’d however. Close range the damage from short bow increases significantly due to the lesser travel time, and it’s still AOE. Yes you could switch to swords but it’s viable both condition and power damage and it’s an offhand weapon used specifically for mobility and AOE damage.

Our stealth heal only gives us regeneration, it does not cure conditions.

I have tested this. It cures poison, bleeding, and burning. This leaves 3 conditions your conditional removal while stealthed do not have to deal with.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9wpx9ccsocb

Here is basicly the run down for what every thief gets besides condition thieves.
We have 15 points left for anything else.

Congratulations, you can still get condition removal during stealth, auto-stealth at low hp, and 1 extra second of stealth for every stealth move!! This is addition to the toughness and healing stat bonuses of course.

Ralathar.7236:

Daecollo.9578:

I stopped reading when I heard “High AOE Damage”

Excuse me? You even quoted me as saying moderate to good AOE damage. That’s not high by any means. Moderate meaning passable.

“Best Mobility”

Thief does have, if not the best mobility in the game, then close to it. Elementalist can likely travel a little faster, but they are also far more vulnerable to CC’s of various types. All the more so since this requires them to use 2-3 utility skill just for movement and compared on straight movement they don’t beat a thief by much.

Spammable teleport that works full distance through cripple and immobilize, condition removal during stealth, Passive 25% movement that doesn’t require you to be in a certain attunement, etc.

Stealth heal curing poison/bleed/fire…

Yes, your stealth heal does that. Learn your class. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows . I specifically refered to using the heal to enter stealth.

Short-bow is our only AOE weapon and its the slowest weapon in the game. (The velocity speed of the arrows are so slow you might as well give the abilities 6 second cool-downs, in melee range it does high damage but LOL, you might as well switch to sword, the autoattack out damages Short Bow’s Clusterbomb.)

Arrows are slow, this is why it’s moderate to good. Moderate meaning you have passable AOE damage. It’s not negligible by any means. It’s better if your condition spec’d however. Close range the damage from short bow increases significantly due to the lesser travel time, and it’s still AOE. Yes you could switch to swords but it’s viable both condition and power damage and it’s an offhand weapon used specifically for mobility and AOE damage.

Our stealth heal only gives us regeneration, it does not cure conditions.

I have tested this. It cures poison, bleeding, and burning. This leaves 3 conditions your conditional removal while stealthed do not have to deal with.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9wpx9ccsocb

Here is basicly the run down for what every thief gets besides condition thieves.
We have 15 points left for anything else.

Congratulations, you can still get condition removal during stealth, auto-stealth at low hp, and 1 extra second of stealth for every stealth move!! This is addition to the toughness and healing stat bonuses of course.

You lose out on getting extra initative, and edited my message after you edited yours.

Ralathar and all you folks saying about the same things, you should really consider learning about the class before writing such assumptions on the forums, thieves have access to what you describe, although you make it to good compared to what it is, but we don’t have access to all of it at once by any mean.

Come on. Be for real man.

Teabaker, trickery already offers a lowered CD on steal as well as a short stun at mastery, although i find the trait distribution very awkward as i stated before this would have to go along with a revamp of the trickery line (which could be a good thing, actually).

Ralathar.7236:

Damage:
High single target burst damage (true)
Good single target damage (true)
Moderate to good AOE damage (poor to good, only good if the opponent doesn’t move at all)

You’re right! the thief has very strong burst and it should be one of the strongest burst classes. I’m not quite sure how you’ve come to the conclusion that we have “moderate to good” aoe damage when we have one decent AOE that is slow moving and easily avoided. I suppose if you include melee in this but then pretty much every class has ‘moderate to good’ aoe damage.

Stealth:
spammable stealth (Nope)
stealth that doesn’t break upon taking damages (Still takes damage)
stealth that provides additional benefits just for being stealthed (If you spec for them)
A group stealth/heal with a long duration commonly used to stealth themselves

Stealth, while not infinite, is usable more or less at will and cannot be broken. Stealth drops conditions, keeping in mind merely using the heal to enter stealth drops all bleeding/poison/burning. Mobility does not decrease at all during stealth, it can actually increase leading to an easy 1,200 units or more covered within a couple seconds.

Shadow Refuge is also amazing for solo/group stealth and while many might say “they know exactly where to find you” AOE’s can easily be avoided within the circle (and most AOE has a good cast time, you can also use that “he must be here” against them and gain one tick and use one of your other stealth options.

Yeppers, thieves can stealth, as they are intended to do so. It isn’t spammable, there is an extremely high initiative cost associated with every attempt to stealth. The abilities that don’t require initiative are on a long timer. I’m not quite sure why you’re railing against the AOE Stealth, when other classes have AOE abilities that work in a bubble and prevent attacks/knock back, etc.

Movement:
The best mobility in the game (in possible options)
More mobility options than they even use because they do not need them all (Yep, we have a lot of options, true)
Mobility options that they currently do not properly exploit, it’s not needed currently (options are always good, unless you truly believe all thieves only play one style)

Mobility combos with stealth and the options seem nearly endless. Perma 25% move speed (Signet of Shadow), Infiltrator’s strike (and return), shadow step (and return), infiltrators arrow, Steal/mug, Infiltrator’s Signet, Shadow Trap, even heartseeker strike adds alot of mobility.

Heck people don’t even have to take advantage of the thief’s evasive roll skills because stealth + extremely high mobility using other things.

Crying about how mobile a thief ‘can’ be is pretty pointless, are you going to tell warriors about how they have too many weapon options next perhaps? I think ele’s have a few to many spell options! some of them aren’t even getting used! Thieves have a lot of options but they can’t all be used and if you’re not specced for it, most of them are on very long timers.

Survivability:
Moderate survivability (compare glass cannon thief to glass cannon anything else)
The ability to avoid zergs (Situational awareness is not a exclusive thief trait)
The ability to evade ganks (Situational awareness is not a exclusive thief trait)
The ability to bail mid fight from nearly any fight that starts to go bad. Repeatedly without having to wait on any long timers. (Most thief abilities are on long timers, SB has a leap but it’s only good for two/three jumps and that’s if you have full int.)

I’m not sure what you think being a thief means but the ability to avoid zergs isn’t tied to being a thief. You can avoid zergs and ganks just by being aware of your surroundings. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve gotten in WvW who I simply walked up to and attacked, no stealth, nothing. I walked up and slapped them around because they weren’t paying attention. Thieves do have a pretty great ability to bail mid fight if they want too, but it’s not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination.

All of this in a single character. It’s obviously not balanced. It’s a situation of too many advantages all at once. Their one weak point is supposed to be they are easy to squish, but they are actually harder to kill than other glass cannons while providing competitive or higher damage and possessing many other advantages over others.

What build do you think allows a thief to have all of the mobility, stealth and dodging abilities you seem to believe they all possess? I’ll give you a hint, none. You have to spec to do any of these things with any kind of ability. More damage means less survivability, more survivability means less damage. It’s the same as every other class.

muscarine.5136:

Ralathar and all you folks saying about the same things, you should really consider learning about the class before writing such assumptions on the forums, thieves have access to what you describe, although you make it to good compared to what it is, but we don’t have access to all of it at once by any mean.

Come on. Be for real man.

Teabaker, trickery already offers a lowered CD on steal as well as a short stun at mastery, although i find the trait distribution very awkward as i stated before this would have to go along with a revamp of the trickery line (which could be a good thing, actually).

Everything in my last 2 posts is obtainable within a single character, as is noted in my post. It is but one spec of many. Some of the commentary mentions other options, but the points specifically lined our are all obtainable in one spec.

People can deny all they want, but it’s absolutely verified as fact and can be tested.

I have 4 lvl80, ele,thief,necro, guard, most of the rest classes are close to 80. I only PVE.

Thief does not have the best mobility. Survivability is low. Aoe is good enough to get some drops basically. What some one said, sry cant remember the name, but i liked it “yes that 30/30/30/30/30 builds are very good” , so all haters stop saying that thieves do ALL in one.
What i would like is to have more flexibility in skill selection. If i build a single target high burst, i dont want aoe on my skll bar. If i go condition there is no need for backstab. It’s more game mechanics, but this is what i want. There are 2 sets of weapons anyways, so you can set 2 skill bars, for diferent situations.

Also i don’t really get cond. thief. Running with pistols is a very weak necro or ele. Using daggers for cond. feels kinda silly. Melee, low armor,low health and dots don’t feel right. I know you will dodge and use a couple of skills, but still i rather go war. for melee/cond.

It’s nice that anet asks our opinion, but first fix the bugs so skills work as they intended, then get rid of the haters that call for nerfs (on any class), and just say random “facts” that are nowhere close to the truth, and then ppl with more experience than me in pve and pvp can say what they see. Now we see few build choices, useless skills, and bugs. Maybe fix these first and then nerfkill the thief.

But that’s my opinon. I could say my thoughts about the class, but other problems are more important now, i think.

zeyele.3149:

I only PVE.

That’s your issue right there. Thieve’s are imbalanced in PVP but PVE is another story. It’s gonna be a hard dance for the dev’s on that one. You also won’t see anywhere near the mobility or such being used in PVE because it doesn’t pay the same dividends there.

kenshinakh.3672:

You were attacked by a glass cannon, and it seems you’re a glassy guardian? Look at your crit chance. That is nearly as high as a thief glass cannons and guardians have pretty big base health to start with, but you only have 18k.

So yes, I agree with you that the class/build is fine. You just need to change your gear with more toughness/vitality stats and you’ll survive a regular burst without a sweat.

Obviously you didn’t even look a t my pics I posted did you? I have OVER 2K toughness and OVER 3200 Armor … so yea I guess I am glass cannon. lol

What is it with people that have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER about the Thief profession listing every advantage a Thief CAN get that ever exists, and then somehow claiming that they have access to all of it at once? No, you brainless cretins. If we spec formidably in survivability, we get pitiful damage and become worthless, just a fly that puts out some occasional control. If we spec formidably in to damage, we become sitting ducks at the slightest mistake and explode when sneezed on. It’s extremely tough to find a middle ground. In basically EVERY combination of things, we are subpar to other professions at combinations of damage, control and support since every other class can outperform us at those tasks simultaneously. How about we all re-roll Warriors and just faceroll the keyboard instead?

Honestly, all you whiners want from us is free kills. You don’t really care about balance, because if you did, you would KNOW that you’re completely wrong in your insolent, ridiculous bawling.

Yes, I’m mad.

Auesis.7301:

What is it with people that have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER about the Thief profession listing every advantage a Thief CAN get that ever exists, and then somehow claiming that they have access to all of it at once? No, you brainless cretins. If we spec formidably in survivability, we get pitiful damage and become worthless, just a fly that puts out some occasional control. If we spec formidably in to damage, we become sitting ducks at the slightest mistake and explode when sneezed on. It’s extremely tough to find a middle ground. In basically EVERY combination of things, we are subpar to other professions at combinations of damage, control and support since every other class can outperform us at those tasks simultaneously. How about we all re-roll Warriors and just faceroll the keyboard instead?

Honestly, all you whiners want from us is free kills. You don’t really care about balance, because if you did, you would KNOW that you’re completely wrong in your insolent, ridiculous bawling.

Yes, I’m mad.

Actually done right the toughness builds are viable as a durable consistent DPS class, provided you spec and play right of course. As well as being able to perform rezzing in insane situations and provide plenty of CC.

Toughness thief also makes a viable rear guard for a group because they have the tools to slow down an enemy horde, bait them, and still live. Concepts like peeling and heal support still apply as well. Though I do think the thief needs another healing option besides spamming stealth on people.

Thrill of the crime works pretty well on a toughness thief as well.

People that only understand “glass cannon >>> gib one person >>>> escape” really shouldn’t try to comment on overall class balance. It’s a far more complex animal than the simplistic build approach of most thieves. This is exactly why most thieves do not take anywhere near full advantage of their class as well.

Lol @ thieves and people who don’t play thieves understating and overstating the profession. We can not take every trait at the same time. However we can take measures to increase survivalbility while keeping high damage in combination with the standard utility choices.
Might as well keep it real.
Hotjoin pvp is 9/10 not real life, people see me enter stealth and literally just freaking stand there. No intention of attacking or defending themselves, and then whine on shout about how broken thieves are when they do jack squat.
On the flip you see thieves who telegraph their every move BRB “Basilisk Venom is up” common sense tells me they lose it within 2 attacks, dodge 2 attacks and it’s gone. Worse comes to worst, Stun break and I’m out of there. Thieves have to deal with thieves too. Elementalists can pop up Shock Aura and disregard the would be spike unless the thief has stability and dagger storm is our only ability that grants it.

Bunker thieves aren’t real life, since stealth makes them pointless to begin with. If they escape so what? Capture your point. You know how much time a thief waste in a 0/0/30/30/10 build with Soldier ammy? Durable as all hell but can’t hold a point because of stealth, and doesn’t deal enough damage to kill anything before reinforcements come 7 times out of 10.

/P sets need some love, srs.

As far as I know, because of how low our traits in other trees are, we are pretty much locked to this as a choice for damage.
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_
_
(this is all there is.) Viable Thief Builds:
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9wpx9MfcsozbV – Direct Damage.
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9wf0fGGVmzsVk – Condition Stealth Dodge Tank. (And many Variations of these!)
Both are D/D and Shortbow, Try anything else and you might as well play the class below.

_
_
_
_
_
_
(And many more!) Viable Warrior Damage Builds:
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcR9wxa9MxVaRzVos – Axe Warrior. (Insane.)
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcRo9fax9MxVzkmVoq – Rifle Warrior. (Insane.)
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcRo9fpp9MGVszaVo – Greatsword Warrior. (…)
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcRo9wax0xzMabVob – Hammer DPS Tank…
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcRo9fGaG0GVRzMkVo – Mace DPS Tank…
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcRo9wG0xGzaVsqVo – Banner Healing Greatsword Warrior!

Theres also Sword Bleeding Condition Warhorn Warrior!
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcRo9wffxaczmsbo (not a very good one.. but i’m tired now..)

ALL THESE BUILDS ARE VERY VIABLE… I’m seriously just making this up as I go!

WHY ARN’T THIEF PISTOLS VIABLE!?

Ralathar.7236:

[snip]

Well, all you said require 150 trait points, 0s CD weapon switching, infinite initiative points and also 4+ weapon skill sets.

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

Taldren.7523:

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

That seems…unlikely, considering that P/P doesn’t have organic stealth.

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

That seems…unlikely, considering that P/P doesn’t have organic stealth.

Ok … so I made a quick movie to prove exactly how wrong you are …

http://youtu.be/v9gjTEFOg0s

Wish all arguments were as easy to win.

Ralathar.7236:

Auesis.7301:

What is it with people that have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER about the Thief profession listing every advantage a Thief CAN get that ever exists, and then somehow claiming that they have access to all of it at once? No, you brainless cretins. If we spec formidably in survivability, we get pitiful damage and become worthless, just a fly that puts out some occasional control. If we spec formidably in to damage, we become sitting ducks at the slightest mistake and explode when sneezed on. It’s extremely tough to find a middle ground. In basically EVERY combination of things, we are subpar to other professions at combinations of damage, control and support since every other class can outperform us at those tasks simultaneously. How about we all re-roll Warriors and just faceroll the keyboard instead?

Honestly, all you whiners want from us is free kills. You don’t really care about balance, because if you did, you would KNOW that you’re completely wrong in your insolent, ridiculous bawling.

Yes, I’m mad.

Actually done right the toughness builds are viable as a durable consistent DPS class, provided you spec and play right of course. As well as being able to perform rezzing in insane situations and provide plenty of CC.

Toughness thief also makes a viable rear guard for a group because they have the tools to slow down an enemy horde, bait them, and still live. Concepts like peeling and heal support still apply as well. Though I do think the thief needs another healing option besides spamming stealth on people.

Thrill of the crime works pretty well on a toughness thief as well.

People that only understand “glass cannon >>> gib one person >>>> escape” really shouldn’t try to comment on overall class balance. It’s a far more complex animal than the simplistic build approach of most thieves. This is exactly why most thieves do not take anywhere near full advantage of their class as well.

I run an S/D build with high DPS, aggro drawing and stealth support, and I agree that we do have middle grounds and good balances. You’re missing my point. Yes, we have options, but other professions have BETTER options. If you want to run any forms of support, all you have is boon sharing from steals and stealths. It’s almost an afterthought. Also, good luck with a venomshare build that has the range of a fingernail. I’m just sick of people that think we can do literally everything at once and dominate all aspects of play. We don’t. Not even close.

Taldren.7523:

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

That seems…unlikely, considering that P/P doesn’t have organic stealth.

Ok … so I made a quick movie to prove exactly how wrong you are …

http://youtu.be/v9gjTEFOg0s

Wish all arguments were as easy to win.

That is D/D+D/P, not P/P+P/D. You literally got none of the weapon combos right.

Taldren.7523:

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

That seems…unlikely, considering that P/P doesn’t have organic stealth.

Ok … so I made a quick movie to prove exactly how wrong you are …

http://youtu.be/v9gjTEFOg0s

Wish all arguments were as easy to win.

They would be if you noticed that it’s not P/P. Which was his point.

Tulsin there is a P/D thrown in there but again no PP which again spits on his counter argument.

On his point of stealth uptimes, that’s inherit to /D thieves who strike you in melee range, and you’d have to show the the stealth itself available to them is too much, not just give a % of it’s upkeep, lol worthy.

Bardes.1870:

Ralathar.7236:

[snip]

Well, all you said require 150 trait points, 0s CD weapon switching, infinite initiative points and also 4+ weapon skill sets.

Like I said it can be tested. I’m swimming in the river of reality. Get your feet wet sometime. Hyperbole is not always your friend and this is a step beyond that. Hyperbole requires a grain of truth.

Auesis.7301:

I run an S/D build with high DPS, aggro drawing and stealth support, and I agree that we do have middle grounds and good balances. You’re missing my point. Yes, we have options, but other professions have BETTER options. If you want to run any forms of support, all you have is boon sharing from steals and stealths. It’s almost an afterthought. Also, good luck with a venomshare build that has the range of a fingernail. I’m just sick of people that think we can do literally everything at once and dominate all aspects of play. We don’t. Not even close.

A toughness support thief is a downed person’s best friend and is far less limited then the long cooldown downed skills.. Stealth has many and varied uses be they tactical, defensive, or offense. You’d be surprised how much even a simple blinding powder at the right time can do.

Venomshare isn’t so bad with a coordinated group, with mindless pugs it’s near useless. With normal people it’s somewhere in between. Get them to stack up a couple times and they will come running to you when you call out [Venom Sharing] in 10, stack on me.

Still it’s a tough balance, They have a PVP ruleset and a PVE ruleset but no WvW ruleset. They might have to make one if they can to have any chance of balancing thief in all. Alternatively they may surprise me.

Thief can’t do literally everything at once, but as far as WvW goes they do close enough most times. The risk vs reward balance is a bit off once you throw more than 5 people in there.

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

That seems…unlikely, considering that P/P doesn’t have organic stealth.

Ok … so I made a quick movie to prove exactly how wrong you are …

http://youtu.be/v9gjTEFOg0s

Wish all arguments were as easy to win.

That is D/D+D/P, not P/P+P/D. You literally got none of the weapon combos right.

Yes, because Unload in my combat log is a D/D ability. /sarcasm

And since I run a P/P + P/D build myself I know what it can and can not do thank you very much.

Once I went down the thief just never swapped back to the P/P set.

Taldren.7523:

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

That seems…unlikely, considering that P/P doesn’t have organic stealth.

Ok … so I made a quick movie to prove exactly how wrong you are …

http://youtu.be/v9gjTEFOg0s

Wish all arguments were as easy to win.

That is D/D+D/P, not P/P+P/D. You literally got none of the weapon combos right.

Yes, because Unload in my combat log is a D/D ability.

And since I run a P/P + P/D build myself I know what it can and can not do thank you very much.

Who cares what’s in your log, watch your own video that you use as evidence
Edit: How did he weapon swap…while in combat? Lol wot. If he did that just discredits again your statement on PP.

ensoriki.5789:

Taldren.7523:

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

That seems…unlikely, considering that P/P doesn’t have organic stealth.

Ok … so I made a quick movie to prove exactly how wrong you are …

http://youtu.be/v9gjTEFOg0s

Wish all arguments were as easy to win.

They would be if you noticed that it’s not P/P. Which was his point.

Tulsin there is a P/D thrown in there but again no PP which again spits on his counter argument.

On his point of stealth uptimes, that’s inherit to /D thieves who strike you in melee range, and you’d have to show the the stealth itself available to them is too much, not just give a % of it’s upkeep, lol worthy.

Except I very specifically said “The Thief PP/PD build”. He was the one that said “P/P” … never me.

ensoriki.5789:

Taldren.7523:

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

That seems…unlikely, considering that P/P doesn’t have organic stealth.

Ok … so I made a quick movie to prove exactly how wrong you are …

http://youtu.be/v9gjTEFOg0s

Wish all arguments were as easy to win.

That is D/D+D/P, not P/P+P/D. You literally got none of the weapon combos right.

Yes, because Unload in my combat log is a D/D ability.

And since I run a P/P + P/D build myself I know what it can and can not do thank you very much.

Who cares what’s in your log, watch your own video that you use as evidence
Edit: How did he weapon swap…while in combat? Lol wot. If he did that just discredits again your statement on PP.

Do you even play the game?

Oh does PP in the build stand for Partyparty? Lol. /sarcasm.
I’d ask you the same question, when you put P/P as if it matters for Stealth discussion.

Taldren.7523:

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

That seems…unlikely, considering that P/P doesn’t have organic stealth.

Ok … so I made a quick movie to prove exactly how wrong you are …

http://youtu.be/v9gjTEFOg0s

Wish all arguments were as easy to win.

You’re looking at a pretty decent thief. Anyone who knows their class well can really make you want a nerf on a class.

Here’s how I tell. Look at that your teammate necro. He’s standing still and not even trying to dodge. Compare that to the thief who’s always moving and tossing in a dodge here and there.
Now, compare that thief to the thief on your own team. Their movements are noticeably different.

Now, I’m about to make a point that OTHER classes can also be good.
Elementalist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzBn32Fqm9w&feature=plcp
Warrior: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR8jjDlM4rs

If you want a fair comparison of classes, play SPVP. There, everyone’s gear is normalized. You’ll see that in sPvP there’s not that many thieves and they’re not overpowered at all. They’re quite normal and balanced.

Just… do your self a favor. Don’t ask for nerfs to classes whenever you lose. Good players exists in WvW, and it’s a literal waste of time to make unnecessary nerfs to a okay spec.

Anyways, back on topic.

P/P could really use some adjustments. I think it’s a rather lacking weapon combo at the moment due to how slow unload shoots and the damage amount isn’t that great. Headshot could use a buff since it does cost a bit of Initiative.

S/P is okay in PvE… It’s restrictive in PvP.

D/D is mostly fine, but every since the damage change to Dancing Dagger, I just skip out on using that attack because it costs too much.

StugLyfe.2134:

kenshinakh.3672:

You were attacked by a glass cannon, and it seems you’re a glassy guardian? Look at your crit chance. That is nearly as high as a thief glass cannons and guardians have pretty big base health to start with, but you only have 18k.

So yes, I agree with you that the class/build is fine. You just need to change your gear with more toughness/vitality stats and you’ll survive a regular burst without a sweat.

Obviously you didn’t even look a t my pics I posted did you? I have OVER 2K toughness and OVER 3200 Armor … so yea I guess I am glass cannon. lol

Sorry, I meant you’re not a full tank. I’ve just asked my friend (who’s an awesome guardian).
He told me that you didn’t have enough HP. Too much focus on Power, Precision, and Toughness. And that you probably traited for toughness to get that much, but lacked traits in vitality. He said without that much toughness, you’d probably get hit 7-8k crit from that thief. He also said whatever hit you is a full on glass cannon, which means someone should’ve yelled glass thief and targeted him and down him before he hits people. Oh, and he also said you should go Mace and Shield. Focus and 1h sword is small DPS and speed (teleporting), and doesn’t benefit the team.

kenshinakh.3672:

You’re looking at a pretty decent thief. Anyone who knows their class well can really make you want a nerf on a class.

Here’s how I tell. Look at that your teammate necro. He’s standing still and not even trying to dodge. Compare that to the thief who’s always moving and tossing in a dodge here and there.
Now, compare that thief to the thief on your own team. Their movements are noticeably different.

That is a pretty average Thief to be honest. I play the same build and know at some point it is going to be nerfed. It isn’t the stealthing and movement that is the problem , its the fact that you heal and remove conditions every time you stealth … so you lose 1-2 conditions and break target every 6 or so seconds just by stealthing without needing ShadowStep which is then always available when you need it. If the conditions persisted it would be a much closer, and fair, fight.

Well, I don’t have much to say, because the first few pages seem to really explain my issues with thief.

I can only reply from a PvE perspective, but I do think dual pistol feels a little weak. I do think it works nicely for dungeons, which is really the only place where I run P/P. I sacrifice a bit of damage for a bit more control/utility for my party.
I think 1’s bleed is a bit lackluster and I’m lucky to get at a 5 max stack with it, contrast to the shortbow I think I can stack bleeds faster and better (and that thing is pretty slow/requires timing). Perhaps a remedy for P/P #1 could be to add a small stacking bleed onto the #3 skill? I don’t mind if pistol isn’t some godly condition machine, but I think it could use a little buff for the stacks applied.

Now that that is out of the way, I mainly want to talk about underwater combat for thieves. This arises more after I played fractals between my thief and mesmer. Our spear is fantastic and the harpoon gun is a great kiting tool. I love them both death (although I’d rather be on my Mesmer if I had the choice). The one thing that really bums me out about our underwater combat is that we have almost no skills to pick from! Maybe it’s just my imagination, but I feel like my mesmer has better picks than my thief.
I mean there’s a decent selection for the standard underwater skills… but don’t get me started on our elite! Last I checked my thief can only pick from Basilisk Venom. That’s one… one! only one! option for underwater and that venom is pure garbage! I’m pretty sure most people have at least 2 underwater elite choices. (I’m also human thief, so I don’t know if other races and their racials give them other options, but none of mine work underwater). If anything were added for underwater combat option, I would love to see thieves guild as a logical choice. The melee thief could use a spear, and the ranged one could use a harpoon gun.

I’m leveling a thief right now and so far they are the most mobile class I’ve played so far. You are rewarded very well if you move around your targets and many of your abilities do it automatically for you. I would have to say the Thief class is the only class that isn’t “throttled” back and that’s why they are so powerful in the right hands.

Playing my Guardian in comparison is dumbed down. You push your buttons on cooldown for maximum damage and your survivability is activating 30s++ cooldown abilities that last only 5 seconds. You don’t have to move around likes thiefs to survive, you just soak it up.

Damage wise nothing beats thiefs right now. I’m a “bunker” Guardian and a Thief can open me up like a can opener dropping 4-6k crits back to back in a short span while being invisible to me half the time.

Also, the problem with burst damage right now has to do with toughness not scaling properly against power, might, critical damage, vulnerability, and +damage% boosts. You can literally stack 100% toughness gear, traits, and food and still be hit for excessive amounts of damage in short periods of times.

This is literally the only MMO I’ve played where you’re allowed to get 50++% crit chances and 75% crit damage without any diminishing returns. Almost everyone is able to pop out those stats while running around in high toughness.

I mean, once you eat your first 10k+ Kill Shot you just shake your head and wonder what was in Anets head.

Elementalists beat thieves in mobility hands down.
Elementalists do AMAZING damage (ITS AOE TOO!) and can tank 20 people easilly when they get there rotation up.

Currently the only way to kill them really is to burst them down before they can get that godmode up, once they have 50 seconds of protection/regeneration, Good Game… they do amazing AE damage (downing 3-4 people with one attack.. lol…)

Daecollo.9578:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzBn32Fqm9w

Elementalists beat thieves in mobility hands down.
Elementalists do AMAZING damage (ITS AOE TOO!) and can tank 20 people easilly when they get there rotation up.

Currently the only way to kill them really is to burst them down before they can get that godmode up, once they have 50 seconds of protection/regeneration, Good Game… they do amazing AE damage (downing 3-4 people with one attack.. lol…)

Don’t get me wrong, bunker dagger/dagger is tough and will likely receive it’s own set of nerfs but the biggest thing they could have done to kill her was not done. In minutes worth of fighting that Elementalist only got hit with a handful of CC abilities, most of them cripple. If the elementalist would have been properly CC locked down they would have died on many occasions.

Like I said elementalist is a little more mobile but has to give up more to be so and is vulnerable to CC. Thief gives up less and is less vulnerable to CC.

Part of why the damage is still so good on dagger/dagger elementalist is because condition damage scales the way it does. You still get most of the condition damage baseline. So if you go power you can still reap plenty of damage off of conditions. Both churning earth and drakes breath still do quite heavy condition damage even with a power build.

I faced plenty of these elementalists before. They are annoying when not properly dealt with, but are much more killable than that video leads you to believe.

Ralathar.7236:

All of this in a single character. It’s obviously not balanced. It’s a situation of too many advantages all at once. Their one weak point is supposed to be they are easy to squish, but they are actually harder to kill than other glass cannons while providing competitive or higher damage and possessing many other advantages over others.

Thieves need all those ability options in a competitive situation when deadly coordinated burst can annihilate a GC thief in a second or less. Stealth and the mobility are fantastic, but people fail to mention that thieves don’t have access to absolutely integral boons like stability(leaving them open to CC unless stun breakers are up, which can be instant death if they aren’t), and protection(a big reason why thieves are so squishy overall). These inherent benefits also invalidate them as an adequate point holder, because either a thief is in stealth(no point cap), or on the move dancing on and off the point which can lead to a de-cap. Other boons can be applied through some ability usage(steal mainly), or stealth might stacking, but thieves to have to rely on their key active defense mechanisms to stay alive. Even in stealth, a thief is still vulnerable, except he can’t be actively targeted.

Conditions are also a sore spot against thieves with their low HP totals, and no reliable form of removal besides traits and certain utilities. Which again, lends to their overall un-sustainability in longer encounters like in team fights over a point.

So what does these options imply to thieves? Roam. This post isn’t to state thieves are weak, far from it, but weaken their mobility, damage, and stealth will keep them from performing competitively in their only viable position atm.

Taldren.7523:

ensoriki.5789:

Taldren.7523:

Tulisin.6945:

Taldren.7523:

The Thief PP/PD build needs to be majorly toned down. They never spend more than 50% of the time out of stealth and every time they enter stealth they remove conditions and heal.

That seems…unlikely, considering that P/P doesn’t have organic stealth.

Ok … so I made a quick movie to prove exactly how wrong you are …

http://youtu.be/v9gjTEFOg0s

Wish all arguments were as easy to win.

They would be if you noticed that it’s not P/P. Which was his point.

Tulsin there is a P/D thrown in there but again no PP which again spits on his counter argument.

On his point of stealth uptimes, that’s inherit to /D thieves who strike you in melee range, and you’d have to show the the stealth itself available to them is too much, not just give a % of it’s upkeep, lol worthy.

Except I very specifically said “The Thief PP/PD build”. He was the one that said “P/P” … never me.

PP doesn’t have stealth on the weaponset skills. Switching has a cooldown. I suppose you could run P/D + P/P but P/P only adds blind, Unload does little damage, has no bleed and costs a lot of initiative, which is subsequently not available for Cloak and Dagger.
At the end you say both players battled for 5 minutes and the match ended a draw. How is that bad or unbalanced in favour of the thief? Because he didn’t go down? It’s only balanced if the thief looses?

The “Sneak Attack -> Unload -> Stealth and Repeat” does not exist, switching to P/P for unloads means there’ll be no Cloak and Dagger for a while

Taldren.7523:

ensoriki.5789:

…

Do you even play the game?

Wait, you’re saying that to ensoriki?

ComeAndSee.1356:

Damage wise nothing beats thiefs right now. I’m a “bunker” Guardian and a Thief can open me up like a can opener dropping 4-6k crits back to back in a short span while being invisible to me half the time.

I was looking around (if we do have to tre-roll…) and picked this up in a currently active topic on torches:

XGhoul.7426:

I use scepter and torch and get 16-20k total crit damage with torch (#5) but I guess most guardians want to be close to useless on ranged fights with staff, in relation to your question, no, torch is not bad.

Please stop the hypocrisy, saying that 6k crits on backstab or mug are overpowered.

Hi as a thief i would like to see some following changes:

Major:
The CnD+steal+bckstab combo damage needs to be reduced, especially CnD+mug burst. Being hit for 6-8k from mug+CnD in many cases eats up to 50% of players HP and the damage done is almost unavoidable due to it’s nature. Perhaps lowering mug dmg will help.

Flanking Strike need some rework/fix, 50% is missing the target who is either moving opposite direction or in some cases standing still. Major problem i have with it is the first part where target tracking is actually moving you away from your target and then to land 2nd strike you are already too far to do it.We need some +damage buff in our sword/dagger set i believe fixing issue with flanking strike would solve this problem.

Thank you.

Arthrone.7964:

Hi as a thief i would like to see some following changes:

Major:
The CnD+steal+bckstab combo damage needs to be reduced, especially CnD+mug burst. Being hit for 6-8k from mug+CnD in many cases eats up to 50% of players HP and the damage done is almost unavoidable due to it’s nature. Perhaps lowering mug dmg will help.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_skill
The only problem backstab.
8k backstab vs max 2k other stealth skill.

This thread just shows us the level of the people complaining about the thief…. Our AoE is lackluster compared to a lot of classes, our CC is bad, probably the worst if not so. The only buff we have access to untraited is(and without stolen skill effects like consume plasma) regeneration (this includes utilities and weapon skills) and so we virtually have no supports to groups so one of the best things we can offer to a group is damage. (In comparison the warrior offers good support and has a burst kin to the Thieves). To be honest I am fine with that as the word thief does not scream support now does it?

Our mobility is the 3rd best, not second best, as a warrior can me more mobile then us.

Our burst whilst being dangerous is no where near the highest damaging one, there is recent vid showing a ele pulling out a crazy combo, Warriors with 100b’s and the rifle can hit like a truck if spec’ed right.

In all honesty the thief right now is fine, but I would like to see some knockdowns in the future, traps that are more usable along with venoms.

Marduh.4603:

Arthrone.7964:

Hi as a thief i would like to see some following changes:

Major:
The CnD+steal+bckstab combo damage needs to be reduced, especially CnD+mug burst. Being hit for 6-8k from mug+CnD in many cases eats up to 50% of players HP and the damage done is almost unavoidable due to it’s nature. Perhaps lowering mug dmg will help.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_skill
The only problem backstab.
8k backstab vs max 2k other stealth skill.

I am sorry but to achieve 8k backstab you need to be behind target that is mobile can dodge, block etc. In addition you have 3s to land it so i believe that backstab damage by itself is fine because you can avoid it. CnD+mug is much much harder to avoid.

Arthrone.7964:

I am sorry but to achieve 8k backstab you need to be behind target that is mobile can dodge, block etc. In addition you have 3s to land it so i believe that backstab damage by itself is fine because you can avoid it. CnD+mug is much much harder to avoid.

8k – half healthpoint many profession. Too much damage, which can be applied every 3 seconds. Besides, there is still heartseeker.

CnD+mug – 40-45 sec cd

Marduh.4603:

Arthrone.7964:

I am sorry but to achieve 8k backstab you need to be behind target that is mobile can dodge, block etc. In addition you have 3s to land it so i believe that backstab damage by itself is fine because you can avoid it. CnD+mug is much much harder to avoid.

8k – half healthpoint many profession. Too much damage, which can be applied every 3 seconds. Besides, there is still heartseeker.

CnD+mug – 40-45 sec cd

Aye but remember it works both ways. Thief can 3-4 backstab most classes but most classes can 3-4 hit that thief (talking high burts thief) sounds fair to me.
Besides it’s my personal input i don’t see reason to argue considering topic of this post.

frans.8092:

PP doesn’t have stealth on the weaponset skills. Switching has a cooldown. I suppose you could run P/D + P/P but P/P only adds blind, Unload does little damage, has no bleed and costs a lot of initiative, which is subsequently not available for Cloak and Dagger.
At the end you say both players battled for 5 minutes and the match ended a draw. How is that bad or unbalanced in favour of the thief? Because he didn’t go down? It’s only balanced if the thief looses?

The “Sneak Attack -> Unload -> Stealth and Repeat” does not exist, switching to P/P for unloads means there’ll be no Cloak and Dagger for a while

1. Everyone else non-Thief was dead … so only a thief can survive a thief? Apply Darwin’s theory to its end result.
2. Sneak Attack + Unload fits in the 5-6 seconds between stealth and grants the most number of hits in that amount of time.
3. You use Cloak and Dagger in the stealth rotation in which the weapon swap cooldown is not a factor.
4. You don’t get how this build works … This is not a burst “your dead” build … its a “I can out survive up to 5 of you and kill you all because you can’t do a kitten thing about my sustainable damage output” build.
5. You also greatly under estimate blind … between blind and the constant stealthing most attacks the enemy throw not only miss, but are wasted and put on cooldown meaning that not only are you healing/losing all conditions with the stealth … you are also denying everyone abilities to damage you when they might actually be able to.

frans.8092:

Wait, you’re saying that to ensoriki?

Uh, yeah … saying you can’t swap weapons in combat is a “WTF” moment.

Since moderator say is thief related i will coppy // past it here
Even In my oppinion i belive is some kind of bug
Ok , i will not complain about it , i am an thief as well.
I assume is was some kind of bug, because in over 1000 hours of wvw this is the first time it happens to me,i normaly eat max 6000 backstab at my defence, but i would also accept an logical explanation if it wasn’t an bug.
I eat an backstab of 12000 Damage, but more interestion is the cloack and dagger who hit me for 6500 damage
In 1’st attached screen are my stats downed ( traits off, with traits my defence is with 300 more ), in second screen my “normal” stats
The thief who bursted me had no nourishment bonuses but it had 25 stacks of bloodlust

Taldren.7523:

frans.8092:

PP doesn’t have stealth on the weaponset skills. Switching has a cooldown. I suppose you could run P/D + P/P but P/P only adds blind, Unload does little damage, has no bleed and costs a lot of initiative, which is subsequently not available for Cloak and Dagger.
At the end you say both players battled for 5 minutes and the match ended a draw. How is that bad or unbalanced in favour of the thief? Because he didn’t go down? It’s only balanced if the thief looses?

The “Sneak Attack -> Unload -> Stealth and Repeat” does not exist, switching to P/P for unloads means there’ll be no Cloak and Dagger for a while

1. Everyone else non-Thief was dead … so only a thief can survive a thief? Apply Darwin’s theory to its end result.
2. Sneak Attack + Unload fits in the 5-6 seconds between stealth and grants the most number of hits in that amount of time.
3. You use Cloak and Dagger in the stealth rotation in which the weapon swap cooldown is not a factor.
4. You don’t get how this build works … This is not a burst “your dead” build … its a “I can out survive up to 5 of you and kill you all because you can’t do a kitten thing about my sustainable damage output” build.
5. You also greatly under estimate blind … between blind and the constant stealthing most attacks the enemy throw not only miss, but are wasted and put on cooldown meaning that not only are you healing/losing all conditions with the stealth … you are also denying everyone abilities to damage you when they might actually be able to.

frans.8092:

Wait, you’re saying that to ensoriki?

Uh, yeah … saying you can’t swap weapons in combat is a “WTF” moment.

Do you even Context?
Im talking re-equipping, in the middle of combat.

Elementalists can do just fine from PE.
A thief can’t “out survive” 5 players, lettuce be cereal unless the culling was so bad that he just isn’t visible but in reality, especially a build like that, he only targets one person with non-burst damage, and there are 5 bodies of which to interrupt any of that. Not to mention switching from P/D to PP is 10s cd before using cnd again, and even if you time it so that
Cnd-Weapon swap -wait-Sneak attack -Unload, Stealth last 4s at most, and sneak attack ends at 1st hit, and puts reveal on him. So with reveal he can;t immediately restealth and because he switched to PP he’s extended his inability to stealth (unless he burns Blinding Powder or Shadow Refuge). You’ve got 6s, to Imm/stun/daze/kd/launch/pull/push and screw him up even further. Should not be hard for a group. Blinding him also makes landing the CnD harder. If 5 people die from one thief “out surviving” them, they’re bad.
You said you play thief so you should know your own limitations.

Rayya.2591:

Since moderator say is thief related i will coppy // past it here
Even In my oppinion i belive is some kind of bug
Ok , i will not complain about it , i am an thief as well.
I assume is was some kind of bug, because in over 1000 hours of wvw this is the first time it happens to me,i normaly eat max 6000 backstab at my defence, but i would also accept an logical explanation if it wasn’t an bug.
I eat an backstab of 12000 Damage, but more interestion is the cloack and dagger who hit me for 6500 damage
In 1’st attached screen are my stats downed ( traits off, with traits my defence is with 300 more ), in second screen my “normal” stats
The thief who bursted me had no nourishment bonuses but it had 25 stacks of bloodlust

Some of us in desolation have been running with staff guardians for empower thats 12 stacks of might or 24 if there were 2, was it a 1v1 situation, but I personally have never hit 12k with backstab on a level 80, but I usually am solo.