Guild Wars 2

Thadren Calder.1397:

ASP.8093:

Thadren Calder.1397:

Do I really need to give other examples of thief skills that can do over 30k damage in a few seconds? Really? Lets see…. Unload and cluster bomb comes to mind.

30k with Clusterbomb in “a few seconds”?

By a “a few seconds” do you actually mean 7-10 attacks? (If so, that’s a long time.)

Or does “30k damage” actually mean “6k spread around to a bunch of different targets”? (If so, that’s not at all the same as “30k damage.”)

No as in 30k+ damage to 1 target, multiple targets, it doesnt matter. 15+ stacks of might, shadowstep onto the enemy and just shoot the ground. Getting the damage numbers is easy if you wanna do it in a few seconds add haste.

Shortbow is my favorite weapon for a thief. Out of all the nerf we might get the only one that would sadden me would be clusterbomb. Even though it’s needed. I know people say its bad because it travels slow or doesnt have 1200 range but that’s not where the ability’s strength lies.

As much as I agree with you, this is not just a problem with the thief class. Multiple classes and specs are capable of putting out 2000-7000 damage aoe bombs resulting in 20-30k+ damage done while still maintaining the ability to offer as much utility or far more than a burst thief build would. It is not just the thief class. And honestly, WvWvW really skews the damage numbers because those kind of damage numbers just don’t happen in sPVP (with cluster bomb) and if they do those are pretty rare situations.

I wouldn’t mind a PvE survivability buff. I never PvP, so I truly don’t care about it, one way or another, I just hate seeing mobs in dungeon literally one shot me, while with my ranger or warrior, for example, I can take a few hits (not many, that’s granted, but certainly more than one).
I’m not even 80 yet, so I have no idea about end game, oh wait, there is none, let’s say fully exotic/traited thief, but survivability needs to be bumped up, either with more hp (moved to medium hp classes) or though some serious armor/vitality bonus in traits (I spec with many points in the +vit line and some in +tough one.

Weapons:

- D is a very good weapon, it has although very high initiave costs for some skills and Danicing Dagger is not really good anymore, I’d bump it up by 20-25%, partially stepping back on the recent nerf to it.

- P is lackluster, but really nice to play in terms of “coolness factor”. A bit more damage, changing body shot to some different effect (cripple maybe?), headshot cost lowered by 1 initiative, and black powder… well, it’s ok if it’s not the end of the world, but it could use some sinergy with a P/P build maybe.

- S is a weapon i really like, all skills have something interesting to offer. I just wish PW damage to go back up to release day, nerf the heck out of it in PvP.

- SB is awesome, don’t touch it, unless you want to put all skills at the 1200 range of course

I wouldn’t mind also to have a few utilities reworked, namely traps.

There is no consequence currently for poor decisions on a thiefs part.
High burst
Extremely mobile
Invisible 99% of the time (not their fault, please find a rendering fix already)
However the real low blow for many players I have talked to is … you overcome all of the above and the thief just laughs and runs away, and that right there is the most BS part of the class.

Zero consequence’s, I’m shocked Anet needs to ask for feedback. Thieves are going to deny their OP nature, its natural they don’t want to have to work for their achievements. Any danger they may face is a moot point because to them its not a danger.

When you see a class popping in and out in the middle of an enemy zerg there is a clear indication that something is wrong, 1 player unafraid of 20+ ? Why are you even asking for feedback at this point.

Start by knocking down their speed so players can catch them and make them face the poor decision they made.

Random ramblings.

The current nerfs to Thieves in spvp make them quite tolerable, lower their damage considerably. These nerfs need to be brought to WvW.

Fix culling. Let’s be honest we are 4 months in and Culling is not fixed. Is it going to be fixed? When? How? If its not fixed imediately stealth needs to be looked at and removed from some abilities.

GW2 borrows from Moba games. The thief in this game is probably most like Scout from HON. In these games there are items that reduce the effectiveness of stealth otherwise you’d have no way of controlling these characters, you’d have entire teams of stealth characters pwning everyone. People would have to roll steatlh to survive. Look at some of the WvW servers and you see entire teams of thieves. Why? because its roll a thief or die. I think half of some servers are thieves, Emery Bay would be a good example of this. Clearly, in WvW thieves are a huge problem. Wards, flares, abilities, sigils on weapons… could all be used to reduce the OPness of stealth.

My big issue with thieves is not their damage so much, its the fact they attack you. You MUST use every available CD to surivive. They then stealth up and rebuild initiative and heal. They come back at you with 85% power while you are reduced to 50% or worse depending on class. Chances are your abilities are now on CD while theirs are near ready to go. Stealth in this case is doubly effective, it gives the thief an offensive weapon and a defensive weapon in one. As such its OP. It needs to be used as one or the other. How about initiative does not regen when stealthed. That way it can be used as an offensive opener, but, if you use it defensively, you can not immediately return and use it offensively again. You would have to use it more tactically, not to constantly drain people of CD’s and make yourself immune to any single target damage.

It’s not as you described really. Most glass thieves will die if they decide to just pop into the middle of the zerg. The few that can survive are specced into Shadow Arts and Acrobatics, and even then, messing up will get them killed.

I know other classes can do similarly. My elementalist friend does it with his tanky build and can get out of zerg easily most of the time. My brother’s tanky warrior can do it too.

The one advantage thieves have over those class is shadowstep, but if you mistime it and go past the buff duration, you just lost your escape.

And high burst thieves aren’t every mobile if you know how they fight and think. My thief friend has more deaths on his glass cannon thief than I do on my tanky thief, and he’s been playing for about 300 hours less than me lol. He definitely bursts higher, but mobility is lost in exchange for burst.

My guild has both a warrior and ele and most of the times, they’re afraid of small zergs. Why? Because your average zerg has the reaction speed of a…. sloth. I’m serious. They tell me they run through people and many people take quite a while to notice they’re being attack. Even worse… some WvW people stand still while fighting.

Sometimes there are really smart zergs though, and those are tough for ANY class. I think Anet asks for feedback because they want to know what the “average” player thinks. If you’re a game dev, you have a very different perspective of your game design because you know it inside-out. What seems easy and balanced to you might not be obvious to your players. Of course, you could tell them to smarten up and learn the game… but that’s not easy for casual players.

I’m glad that Anet hasn’t given into this feedback without letting the recent patches settle in.

Relentliss.2170:

My big issue with thieves is not their damage so much, its the fact they attack you. You MUST use every available CD to surivive. They then stealth up and rebuild initiative and heal. They come back at you with 85% power while you are reduced to 50% or worse depending on class. Chances are your abilities are now on CD while theirs are near ready to go. Stealth in this case is doubly effective, it gives the thief an offensive weapon and a defensive weapon in one. As such its OP. It needs to be used as one or the other. How about initiative does not regen when stealthed. That way it can be used as an offensive opener, but, if you use it defensively, you can not immediately return and use it offensively again. You would have to use it more tactically, not to constantly drain people of CD’s and make yourself immune to any single target damage.

This. They have their cake and eat it too. They control when the fight starts and ends. They wipe conditions and heal and come back in seconds, to do the same level of damage they always do, while you’re staring at ticking down numbers and auto-attacking. They don’t even have to think about positioning, their skills pop them right on top of their targets. They have a high movement speed seemingly without penalty otherwise.

There seems to be no ‘you have to give this up to have this capability here’ at all with them. Oh well my Thief is well on the way to 80. Can’t be beat, won’t be balanced. Join ’em.

LOCO.1785:

Columba.9730:

In WvWvW, thieves can exploit the culling bug to remain perma stealthed and dish out the highest dps. They also can move the fastest. Literally, some thieves can never nbe seen for entire fights. God mode.

You probably believe they can shoot fireballs from their eyes and bolts of lightning from their a55 too.

Plz, stop making up crap. You only make yourself look silly.

with the culling bug, thieves don’t need much stealth to be perma stealth. so perma stealth and the highest dps = god mode.

Columba.9730:

LOCO.1785:

Columba.9730:

In WvWvW, thieves can exploit the culling bug to remain perma stealthed and dish out the highest dps. They also can move the fastest. Literally, some thieves can never nbe seen for entire fights. God mode.

You probably believe they can shoot fireballs from their eyes and bolts of lightning from their a55 too.

Plz, stop making up crap. You only make yourself look silly.

with the culling bug, thieves don’t need much stealth to be perma stealth. so perma stealth and the highest dps = god mode.

You really need to stop using the phrase perma-stealth as it implies a lot of things it is not.

Culling and rendering issues, might not make you visible in combat but they do not also give you all the other additional benefits of stealth. Such as shadow art traits, untargetability and the stealth 1 skill.

Whether deliberate or not, what you are doing is over stating the issue considerably. Please stop doing this, you aren’t really helping your point by making it intellectually dishonest.

Culling and Rendering is an issue that needs dealing with, it really doesn’t need a ton of spin to further confuse matters.

Perhaps in future call it permanently unrendered… As this correctly states the actual issue.

Whatever you say Columba.

You’re obviously well informed on the matter.

/sarcasm

It does seem like thieves can enter stealth in combat far too easily. This can lead to annoying battles where the thief is invisible for most of it and always has the option to just disengage easily. There isn’t a reliable way to keep them out other than chain stun. It feels a little broken.

Compared to most mmo’s the thieves in this game have it way too good when it comes to their stealth. It’s entirely too easy to enter and way too easy to escape with. If they need a survivability buff to be able to open and then exchange then I would welcome that.

Alice.8694:

Columba.9730:

LOCO.1785:

Columba.9730:

In WvWvW, thieves can exploit the culling bug to remain perma stealthed and dish out the highest dps. They also can move the fastest. Literally, some thieves can never nbe seen for entire fights. God mode.

You probably believe they can shoot fireballs from their eyes and bolts of lightning from their a55 too.

Plz, stop making up crap. You only make yourself look silly.

with the culling bug, thieves don’t need much stealth to be perma stealth. so perma stealth and the highest dps = god mode.

You really need to stop using the phrase perma-stealth as it implies a lot of things it is not.

Culling and rendering issues, might not make you visible in combat but they do not also give you all the other additional benefits of stealth. Such as shadow art traits, untargetability and the stealth 1 skill.

Whether deliberate or not, what you are doing is over stating the issue considerably. Please stop doing this, you aren’t really helping your point by making it intellectually dishonest.

Culling and Rendering is an issue that needs dealing with, it really doesn’t need a ton of spin to further confuse matters.

Perhaps in future call it permanently unrendered… As this correctly states the actual issue.

i cannot target unrendered players, lol. so it really doesn’t matter. call it what you want. Because thieves can best exploit the culling bug they get the most advantage from it. so whatever. Anet will get enough complaints and threats of not buying gems that they will do the right thing.

Columba.9730:

i cannot target unrendered players, lol.

Wrong again.

You don’t even play the game do you…

LOCO.1785:

Columba.9730:

i cannot target unrendered players, lol.

Wrong again.

You don’t even play the game do you…

Yep, and unrendered thieves I cannot target. or they are perma stealthed. Not sure the root cause really matters, lol.

Columba.9730:

Yep, and unrendered thieves I cannot target.

Tab target.

nahj.2870:

Columba.9730:

Yep, and unrendered thieves I cannot target.

Tab target.

Nope, they don’t target. So perhaps they are actually perma stealthed? Lol, not sure that’s better.

I gotta say, thieves are my favorite class to kill. Tab target or target closest works. The culling is like .5s for me max usually so it is manageable. I seriously doubt Anet will do do anything to thief stealth until they fix the culling issue. No dev in their right mind would purposely break something to counter another bug.

Columba.9730:

nahj.2870:

Columba.9730:

Yep, and unrendered thieves I cannot target.

Tab target.

Nope, they don’t target. So perhaps they are actually perma stealthed? Lol, not sure that’s better.

A thief that has dropped out of stealth but isn’t visible due to culling is absolutely able to be targeted via tab targeting. Watch for the black swirl effect, hit tab, there’s your thief. I do this multiple times in every WvW session. It’s even easier when fighting P/D thieves since the bullet trails from Sneak Attack will tell you exactly where the thief is.

nahj.2870:

Columba.9730:

nahj.2870:

Columba.9730:

Yep, and unrendered thieves I cannot target.

Tab target.

Nope, they don’t target. So perhaps they are actually perma stealthed? Lol, not sure that’s better.

A thief that has dropped out of stealth but isn’t visible due to culling is absolutely able to be targeted via tab targeting. Watch for the black swirl effect, hit tab, there’s your thief. I do this multiple times in every WvW session. It’s even easier when fighting P/D thieves since the bullet trails from Sneak Attack will tell you exactly where the thief is.

Well then, they must truly be perma stealthed then. That’s balance!

Thadren Calder.1397:

Do I really need to give other examples of thief skills that can do over 30k damage in a few seconds? Really? Lets see…. Unload and cluster bomb comes to mind.

This quote needs immediate proof or you have lost all credibility instantly. Unload…30k. I’m seriously tearing up from laughing here. A skill that John himself has openly stated needs a damage boost. I’ve never seen numbers like that and I run P/P SB on SoS

Seriously all the changes that are needed for a thief without massive overcorrection is to A) fix cloak and dagger so it can’t be chained with steal. Longer cooldown on C&D (the source of the false claims of perma stealth thieves..there is no such thing as ‘perma’ stealth) and C) A short cooldown on backstab (like 1s). See how that goes first. Glass cannon thieves would still kill fast..but at least it would give folks time to react.

Rest of it is definitely a L2P issue. If your running into thieves consistently in WvW maybe you should be using that 20% dmg trait that just screams “thief protection”. And perhaps you should drop one of your ‘l33t’ utilities to carry a pull/knockdown/knockback etc. Or hey if your running into thieves consistently maybe you shouldn’t be running glass cannon “drop at the sound of a fart” builds. The smart players can handle theives because they use those as soon as a thief stealths. It amazes me how folks still can’t even TRY to aoe a shadow refuge despite the fact it has a big ole graphic and you should know thieves have to stay in it for 4 seconds or are immediately revealed.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2rkN8jZBFA&feature=player_embedded#!

Perfect example of C&D being a cause. Look at how often the #5 skill is used. Do you think he pulls off this without constantly using C&D?

Nuzt.7894:

When you see a class popping in and out in the middle of an enemy zerg there is a clear indication that something is wrong, 1 player unafraid of 20+ ? Why are you even asking for feedback at this point.

Not much of a choice when our weaponset is primarily melee weapons and 900 range ranged weapons. Give thieves 1200-1500 range weapons, as the rest of classes, and you won’t see them as often on the middle of enemy zergs.
Oh, and all those players are certainly afraid of 20+ people… that’s why they use stealth.

Nuzt.7894:

Start by knocking down their speed so players can catch them and make them face the poor decision they made.

Which is choosing the thief profession, right?

Wilow.3061:

Azzan.1650:

The worst is the p/s condi, how am i supposed to counter this stupid spec as a gardian ?

Just remove this stupid class.

Azzan.1650:

Dynia.9574:

Azzan.1650:

The worst is the p/s condi, how am i supposed to counter this stupid spec as a gardian ?

Just remove this stupid class.

if you get owned by some class or buid that mean you do something wrong or you are bad pvp palyer, if you get owned by some class dosen’t mean is stupid its just you.

Guardian qq about thief is op ? rly ? ROFL

ofc its troll post who want get thiefs nerf
2nd of all im not thief defender im just fair judger cause I play 5 classes on pvp right now some times 6

I dont complain about d/d thief, just learn to read. I said there is no way to beat a ranged thief condi 95% invisi of the time.

We’ll learn to read when you learn to post. Thieves are unable to wield Pistol/Sword (unless you are talking about Sword/Pistol…in which case I’m sorry to inform you that that build is not a condition one by any means). I’m pretty sure you are talking about Pistol/Dagger, but if you are going to tell someone L2R, please make sure you aren’t quoting yourself saying something that is flat out wrong and not possible.

I agree, if the thief is invisible 95% of the time he will be hard to kill. But he won’t be much of a threat either…At best you are looking at about 58% uptime on stealth if he is trying to kill you. 4 seconds of stealth, 3 seconds revealed. up to an aditional 1/2 second to CnD, and that’s assuming he is able to land CnD the moment the revealed debuff ends.

You know what is magic with condition ? Dealing damage without being there…. A p/d is able to deal constant damage, regardless invisible phase, because of bleeds. And the the fun part is : removing condition is useless. Because with the auto-attacks, he stacks bleeds one by one, so if you dispell, you do it when you have at least 3 stacks. When you remove the bleeds, 3 auto-attacks later, you have again 3 stacks. Even if you can reach him, he use cnd, dodge, or pistol 3 to get away. For the d/d condi, you remove the bleeds just after being hit by Dager 3 (9 stacks i think) so i dont have any issue with a d/d thief (HS or bleeds).

Ok maybe i was confused by sword and dager but it doesnt change anything. You are just messing around. I know a condi ranged condi thief and when I asked him if he had lost a fight (1vs1), he told me that was too easy so pointless to do it and he prefered 1vs4-5 fight. (his video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAjtjfBNIo4&feature=youtu.be)

PS : sorry for my english

How do you counter this ? You just CANT. In WvWvW the condi thief p/d is the most powerfull class in the game because he doesn’t have to take risk to kill you like a real d/d. I can face any thief specs but not the pistol one….

Azzan.1650:

You know what is magic with condition ? Dealing damage without being there…. A p/d is able to deal constant damage, regardless invisible phase, because of bleeds. And the the fun part is : removing condition is useless. Because with the auto-attacks, he stacks bleeds one by one, so if you dispell, you do it when you have at least 3 stacks. When you remove the bleeds, 3 auto-attacks later, you have again 3 stacks. Even if you can reach him, he use cnd, dodge, or pistol 3 to get away. For the d/d condi, you remove the bleeds just after being hit by Dager 3 (9 stacks i think) so i dont have any issue with a d/d thief (HS or bleeds).

But bleeds aren’t that dangerous. If you take for example the Necro Blood is Power skill. It applies 2 stacks of bleed that last 30s on the target. Those stacks, you want to purge because they will do a lot of damage if you left them there.

But the Vital Shot bleed last a very small duration! Look at it that way. Look at the skill tooltips. You can have for example :

Random Ranged Attack.
- Damage : 500
- Attack Speed : 3/4s

Result : does 500 damage to the target every 3/4s

And then, you have :
Random Bleed Based Attack.
- Damage : 100
- Bleed : 1 stacks of 10s duration (40 damage per tick so 400 damage total)
- Attack Speed : 3/4s

And then you’d say : Oh no, this class can apply a 10s bleed with it’s normal attacks quicker than one per second, what will I do, it’s so OP! And then you notice that the damage output of both skills are in fact the exact same, except that the 10s bleed CAN be purged.

You’d then say : but he can reapply the bleed 0.75s later, why would I remove it! To that I’d ask you to think carefully at that and actually notice that you DID receive a lot less damage thanks to the fact you removed that condition, even if the thief applied more immediately after.

Currently, Vital Shot isn’t even in the situation of Random Bleed Based Attack. It’s mediocre damage that is easily beaten by pure power attacks. So what if he keeps you bleeding permanently with it? All that matters is how quick he can kill you with it, and it’s slowly.

The Pistol sneak attack skill is a different matter. And it’s not THAT strong unless used many times. Just don’t get hit by C&D and that’s all.

Wiredgunslinger.5480:

Thadren Calder.1397:

Do I really need to give other examples of thief skills that can do over 30k damage in a few seconds? Really? Lets see…. Unload and cluster bomb comes to mind.

This quote needs immediate proof or you have lost all credibility instantly. Unload…30k. I’m seriously tearing up from laughing here. A skill that John himself has openly stated needs a damage boost. I’ve never seen numbers like that and I run P/P SB on SoS

Seriously all the changes that are needed for a thief without massive overcorrection is to A) fix cloak and dagger so it can’t be chained with steal. Longer cooldown on C&D (the source of the false claims of perma stealth thieves..there is no such thing as ‘perma’ stealth) and C) A short cooldown on backstab (like 1s). See how that goes first. Glass cannon thieves would still kill fast..but at least it would give folks time to react.

Rest of it is definitely a L2P issue. If your running into thieves consistently in WvW maybe you should be using that 20% dmg trait that just screams “thief protection”. And perhaps you should drop one of your ‘l33t’ utilities to carry a pull/knockdown/knockback etc. Or hey if your running into thieves consistently maybe you shouldn’t be running glass cannon “drop at the sound of a fart” builds. The smart players can handle theives because they use those as soon as a thief stealths. It amazes me how folks still can’t even TRY to aoe a shadow refuge despite the fact it has a big ole graphic and you should know thieves have to stay in it for 4 seconds or are immediately revealed.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2rkN8jZBFA&feature=player_embedded#!

Perfect example of C&D being a cause. Look at how often the #5 skill is used. Do you think he pulls off this without constantly using C&D?

Really? Math is that hard huh? Lets see……with might stacks an average unload damage of 8k, times 4 unloads is well under 30k right? Oh wait….no thats even more then 30k :P my bad you know what? I was wrong it’s even higher…

Azzan.1650:

I dont complain about d/d thief, just learn to read. I said there is no way to beat a ranged thief condi 95% invisi of the time.
…
You know what is magic with condition ? Dealing damage without being there…. A p/d is able to deal constant damage, regardless invisible phase, because of bleeds. And the the fun part is : removing condition is useless. Because with the auto-attacks, he stacks bleeds one by one, so if you dispell, you do it when you have at least 3 stacks. When you remove the bleeds, 3 auto-attacks later, you have again 3 stacks. Even if you can reach him, he use cnd, dodge, or pistol 3 to get away. For the d/d condi, you remove the bleeds just after being hit by Dager 3 (9 stacks i think) so i dont have any issue with a d/d thief (HS or bleeds).

Ok maybe i was confused by sword and dager but it doesnt change anything. You are just messing around. I know a condi ranged condi thief and when I asked him if he had lost a fight (1vs1), he told me that was too easy so pointless to do it and he prefered 1vs4-5 fight. (his video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAjtjfBNIo4&feature=youtu.be)

PS : sorry for my english

How do you counter this ? You just CANT. In WvWvW the condi thief p/d is the most powerfull class in the game because he doesn’t have to take risk to kill you like a real d/d. I can face any thief specs but not the pistol one….

When facing P/D thieves, you need to learn to DODGE his CnD skill. Dodging this very important skill will greatly gimp a P/D thiefs damage. Stay away from him, or else he will make your life a living hell. Do you stand in melee with a GS Warrior? Do you stand still and not dodge a ranger attacking you from max range? I agree, that 1v1, most P/D thieves will win the encounter 9 out of every 10 times in WvW. Guess what, WvW is meant to be done in groups (doesn’t have to be zerg size, but play solo and you deserve what you get). Now before someone comes back to me with more videos of a P/D thief going 1vWhatever, plese make sure the video doesn’t include horrible players that see their ally go down, the thief disapears, and then try to rez their ally. THIS NEVER WORKS unless you use a utility skill to get them up, or you were all standing next the the downed player at the time he went down. Every video I’ve seen as “Proof” that “P/D thieves are OP” has people standing still, not controlling their pet, or doing something stupid like ignore the thief and trying to rez a down or dead (yes dead) player. Show me a video of multiple people going up against 1 P/D thief where all the players dodge AT LEAST ONCE in the video.

As for Pistol auto attack bleeds….ignore them. They do less then 400-500 damage OVER 4 SECONDS. Wait til he stacks up more then a few bleeds (1 or 2 sneak attacks) before you remove the condition, unless you can cleanse yourself more often. This is also something I notice, players will remove my very first sneak attack (5 stack) then moment it goes up (sometimes earlier), then I don’t notice another cleanse-like-ability go off for at least 30 secs (assuming the fight lasts that long). You said you wait til a D/D cond thief using DB at least 3 times (9 stack of bleed), why not use the same logic for a P/D thief? It also doesn’t help much that most of the P/D traits are in the tankier side of out traits.

As for your last statement, many classes can hard counter a P/D thief. Guardians/Eles/Warriors/Necros can all get rid of conditions very easily on a relatively low cd (in some specs). Not sure about Eng/Mes/Rang since I haven’t leveled those yet.

Thadren Calder.1397:

Really? Math is that hard huh? Lets see……with might stacks an average unload damage of 8k, times 4 unloads is well under 30k right? Oh wait….no thats even more then 30k :P my bad you know what? I was wrong it’s even higher…

Well considering 4 unloads takes a minimum (excluding quickness) 7 secs to execute, I don’t think we want to compare the amount of damage EVERY other class can do in 7 seconds of gameplay. Way to not make your point.

As I said in an earlier post, if you want to do any of these high damage combo’s in a few seconds just add haste.

Thadren Calder.1397:

Wiredgunslinger.5480:

Thadren Calder.1397:

Do I really need to give other examples of thief skills that can do over 30k damage in a few seconds? Really? Lets see…. Unload and cluster bomb comes to mind.

This quote needs immediate proof or you have lost all credibility instantly. Unload…30k. I’m seriously tearing up from laughing here. A skill that John himself has openly stated needs a damage boost. I’ve never seen numbers like that and I run P/P SB on SoS

Seriously all the changes that are needed for a thief without massive overcorrection is to A) fix cloak and dagger so it can’t be chained with steal. Longer cooldown on C&D (the source of the false claims of perma stealth thieves..there is no such thing as ‘perma’ stealth) and C) A short cooldown on backstab (like 1s). See how that goes first. Glass cannon thieves would still kill fast..but at least it would give folks time to react.

Rest of it is definitely a L2P issue. If your running into thieves consistently in WvW maybe you should be using that 20% dmg trait that just screams “thief protection”. And perhaps you should drop one of your ‘l33t’ utilities to carry a pull/knockdown/knockback etc. Or hey if your running into thieves consistently maybe you shouldn’t be running glass cannon “drop at the sound of a fart” builds. The smart players can handle theives because they use those as soon as a thief stealths. It amazes me how folks still can’t even TRY to aoe a shadow refuge despite the fact it has a big ole graphic and you should know thieves have to stay in it for 4 seconds or are immediately revealed.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2rkN8jZBFA&feature=player_embedded#!

Perfect example of C&D being a cause. Look at how often the #5 skill is used. Do you think he pulls off this without constantly using C&D?

Really? Math is that hard huh? Lets see……with might stacks an average unload damage of 8k, times 4 unloads is well under 30k right? Oh wait….no thats even more then 30k :P my bad you know what? I was wrong it’s even higher…

Math is hard apparently. Unload requires five initiative, which means a unspecced thief can only do it twice in a row before being completely tapped out. If one does go 15 points into the trickery line then they can do it three times and be completely tapped out. Adding haste would allow you to get those off faster, but it’s still going to take you more then a few seconds to fire off all three. Lets say they do blow everything on the sub-par attack that is unload and let us presume that we actually do hit for 8 k, the target takes no defensive action to lower the incoming damage and that we don’t have to do anything else that would interrupt us. 8×3 = 24. This isn’t unique either, classes can string together multiple attacks to do a lot of damage, moreso when haste is involved.

Sigh…. Opportunist works very well with unload…. also add in 1 initiative every 1.33 seconds. Add that up and by the time the 3rd unload has gone off you have 5 initiative again for the 4th.

Also 8k is average for a might stacked unload. I have easily done 12k to squishies under 50% life.

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

Thadren Calder.1397:

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

4 uses of Unload = 20 initiative used in 3.5s. Care to explain how this is even possible?

Yes but now we go into even more in depth and repeated arguements that should thief be able to do this kind of damage and retain excellent escape/mobility? Should they be able to do this at long range or only up close? etc… etc… etc… Which I was not getting into just like none of the things ive talked about involve steath or backstab as that has been drama’d up enough.

I’ll say it again…. My main is a thief, i love the thief, and in my opinion I think the thief is overpowered in the ability to not only retain a very high damage output but also not really have to give up that much in return.

If they don’t wanna nerf anything and end up buffing P/P GREAT! WOOHOO! MORE KILLS FOR ME! While they’re at it I hope shortbow gets a buff too, hell they should just make it 1200 range and make clusterbombs fly faster.

People keep saying well if they’re glass cannon they will just die fast and it balances it out. So when people get good and don’t die in this build then what? We all just say thats fine, or its ok WvW is suppose to be unbalanced and Anet will never fix it. That just leads to everyone rerolling to be in the winning group. Or refusing to play rather then join in…

15 year’s of MMO’s and all go through the same thing. These conversations are the same just a different game, different name.

stof.9341:

Thadren Calder.1397:

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

4 uses of Unload = 20 initiative used in 3.5s. Care to explain how this is even possible?

He’s presuming that you’re specced in a certain way (15+ Crit, 15 Tricker), that opportunist works out and replenishes your ini so that you can get off the fourth one. It works out but it’s a very select viewpoint. To which I’ve finally decided to agree with him, it is entirely possible to do 30k damage with successive uses of unload if one is built a specific way and everything goes correctly. If he was making any larger arguments about it then I’d argue with him but on this point he’s actually correct.
This being said, it’s not an argument that unload needs a nerf, simply that it is possible for someone to do what he says, just as it is possible to do the exact opposite and do the minimum, just as it is possible to do this kind of damage with a large number of abilities stung together.

Thadren Calder.1397:

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

And one dodge roll will avoid at 1-2 full unloads if not more while the thief has quickness. You are trying to argue with numbers used in a vacuum (theoretical values) which is great, but doesn’t really apply 99% of the time. My argument was (and I excluded quickness for a very good reason, all classes with access to quickness are op when it’s used) not trying to deny that several unloads can do 30k damage. It was saying that it’s not practical to use this comparison to claim a class is OP. Once again, EVERY class can do a bucket of damage over 7 seconds given their target isn’t moving (let’s face it, unload looses a lot of it’s damage against a live target). Find me a build usable by Thiefs that will force its target to each the full 4 unloads (or most of it) and I’ll leave you be (either 3-4 second stun, or 5+ second imobilize).

stof.9341:

Thadren Calder.1397:

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

4 uses of Unload = 20 initiative used in 3.5s. Care to explain how this is even possible?

Unload has an activation time of 1.75 seconds. Multiplied by 4 is 7 seconds. Haste then makes that 3.5 seconds. With traits thieves have 15 initiative. Opportunist grants a 20% chance to regain 1 initiative with a 1 second cool down. 3 unloads by itself is 24 shots so in 3 seconds your going to get 3 of the 5 more initiative you need for the 4th unload. You naturally regenerate initiative at 1 per 1.33 seconds. so all you need is 2.66 seconds to get 2 more for the final unload burst. Since were talking about 4 seconds of haste we have to work with it sure is easy to get that 5 more initiative for the 4th unload.

Wilow.3061:

Thadren Calder.1397:

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

And one dodge roll will avoid at 1-2 full unloads if not more while the thief has quickness. You are trying to argue with numbers used in a vacuum (theoretical values) which is great, but doesn’t really apply 99% of the time. My argument was (and I excluded quickness for a very good reason, all classes with access to quickness are op when it’s used) not trying to deny that several unloads can do 30k damage. It was saying that it’s not practical to use this comparison to claim a class is OP. Once again, EVERY class can do a bucket of damage over 7 seconds given their target isn’t moving (let’s face it, unload looses a lot of it’s damage against a live target). Find me a build usable by Thiefs that will force its target to each the full 4 unloads (or most of it) and I’ll leave you be (either 3-4 second stun, or 5+ second imobilize).

Example i don’t think this build would work at all in spvp, and not just for the damage, but also because players are always on their toes and expecting to stun break, dodge, etc…. But in WvW (which i’ve stated this is what all my talk is regarding) It’s so easy to catch people off guard. Or find someone who is waiting for cooldowns on stun breaks.

Yes all this talk depends on circumstances and what if’s but so does every arguement people talk about whether it be 100 blades, backstab, or heartseeker. Everyone says the same thing, dodge, L2P stun break. Funny thing is if that was so easy to do then thieves and other classes with OP damage wouldn’t be a problem. I’m assuming it’s not that easy since the problems and complaints still happen and are not slowing down.

Thadren Calder.1397:

Wilow.3061:

Thadren Calder.1397:

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

And one dodge roll will avoid at 1-2 full unloads if not more while the thief has quickness. You are trying to argue with numbers used in a vacuum (theoretical values) which is great, but doesn’t really apply 99% of the time. My argument was (and I excluded quickness for a very good reason, all classes with access to quickness are op when it’s used) not trying to deny that several unloads can do 30k damage. It was saying that it’s not practical to use this comparison to claim a class is OP. Once again, EVERY class can do a bucket of damage over 7 seconds given their target isn’t moving (let’s face it, unload looses a lot of it’s damage against a live target). Find me a build usable by Thiefs that will force its target to each the full 4 unloads (or most of it) and I’ll leave you be (either 3-4 second stun, or 5+ second imobilize).

Example i don’t think this build would work at all in spvp, and not just for the damage, but also because players are always on their toes and expecting to stun break, dodge, etc…. But in WvW (which i’ve stated this is what all my talk is regarding) It’s so easy to catch people off guard. Or find someone who is waiting for cooldowns on stun breaks.

Yes all this talk depends on circumstances and what if’s but so does every arguement people talk about whether it be 100 blades, backstab, or heartseeker. Everyone says the same thing, dodge, L2P stun break. Funny thing is if that was so easy to do then thieves and other classes with OP damage wouldn’t be a problem. I’m assuming it’s not that easy since the problems and complaints still happen and are not slowing down.

It doesn’t matter if it’s easy or hard though, people will complain no matter what. A lot of people will get a bruised ego when they lose. You can see it in any game that has competitive to any extent. Some folks will always try to blame someone other them themselves and that lends to people coming to places like this and complaining rather then adapting and trying to improve.

Aratoa.7398:

Thadren Calder.1397:

Wilow.3061:

Thadren Calder.1397:

All of the damage quotes i’ve stated involve spamming of the ability. Never did i say one use of an ability would do 30k damage. Also 4 uses of unload with haste is only 3.5 seconds. Even if you screw up the whole combo will easily be done in under 5 seconds which is the duration of the might stacks.

And one dodge roll will avoid at 1-2 full unloads if not more while the thief has quickness. You are trying to argue with numbers used in a vacuum (theoretical values) which is great, but doesn’t really apply 99% of the time. My argument was (and I excluded quickness for a very good reason, all classes with access to quickness are op when it’s used) not trying to deny that several unloads can do 30k damage. It was saying that it’s not practical to use this comparison to claim a class is OP. Once again, EVERY class can do a bucket of damage over 7 seconds given their target isn’t moving (let’s face it, unload looses a lot of it’s damage against a live target). Find me a build usable by Thiefs that will force its target to each the full 4 unloads (or most of it) and I’ll leave you be (either 3-4 second stun, or 5+ second imobilize).

Example i don’t think this build would work at all in spvp, and not just for the damage, but also because players are always on their toes and expecting to stun break, dodge, etc…. But in WvW (which i’ve stated this is what all my talk is regarding) It’s so easy to catch people off guard. Or find someone who is waiting for cooldowns on stun breaks.

Yes all this talk depends on circumstances and what if’s but so does every arguement people talk about whether it be 100 blades, backstab, or heartseeker. Everyone says the same thing, dodge, L2P stun break. Funny thing is if that was so easy to do then thieves and other classes with OP damage wouldn’t be a problem. I’m assuming it’s not that easy since the problems and complaints still happen and are not slowing down.

It doesn’t matter if it’s easy or hard though, people will complain no matter what. A lot of people will get a bruised ego when they lose. You can see it in any game that has competitive to any extent. Some folks will always try to blame someone other them themselves and that lends to people coming to places like this and complaining rather then adapting and trying to improve.

Well if that is the case then wouldn’t they be complaining about every class rather then just a select few?

Do you think condition damage based thieves are a viable option for player versus players confrontations?

In my opinion, this build needs a buff in this situations. It is highly dependent of bleeding, but any class can easily remove those 25 stacks of bleeding that have cost all of your initiative.

D/D in this build, for example, is generally about spamming Death Blossom, but the melee damage of it is barely noticeable.

I have tried to run one condition damage based build and had great success on killing mobs, but it feels like it is completely useless in any player versus player battle.

Yeah i stealth a lot. So what? You mesmers clone. You eles have great point control or mobility, you guardians just ignore things and fart and it happens to heal you… warriors have fought me for 5 minutes (good fight, ferguson’s rest native), because we just danced so well, even when his ranger friend and my engineer friend showed u, only to die while the warrior and i were both dealing with an add. Our beautiful dance continued… tangebt.. anyway point is:

Stealth is fine. Fix culling, reavealed to 4 seconds if not enough. If you cant target, immobilize, beat down a thief in that time, you are both wasting time. One or both of you need more. It’s not like prediction is difficult.

P/- – body shot lol, lower ini by 1. Increase base damage by 15-25%, almost anything’s better.
Vital shot – comparatively worse than other class `equivalents` but is fine really. You are at minimal risk short of 1200ers and theyre telegraphed. Id like to see it able to keep 6 or 7 bleeds, but meh.

S/- pistol whip lol. Good. Consistent. Deathwish. Either 100% win or fail.damage too low for how vulnerable you really are.

Change quickness to reduce current cooldown on skills by 50%. (My heal had 22 seconds, now has 11.) Could increase base ini regen by 25-100%, oh mesmer field dropped? I will now activate tg for a 90s cooldown incurred. Bam quickness solved.

Obstructed.

45S cd.

No item, or movement.

Who am i?

Bruno, i successfully run a d/d healing>condition/toughness>vitality>power build. Its suvivable, but bleed heavy, if they have copious/consistent condi removal it stalemates, or if they are good at lining up burst you may lose. I dont run shortbow, most 1v1 who kills me i let them have their loot bag.

Otaur.9268:

Dynia.9574:

Can some1 explain me why ppls think thief is op cause I rly don’t get it.

1. My memser kill them easy trolling around with clones no matter what build he is backstabber or pistol whisp or pistols or what ever (lot of tou)

2. My bunker engi laugh a lot too even if 2 thiefs jump on me reflect kill them when I do nothing just tank (lot of tou and hp)

3. My guardian loling around too cause they can’t do NOTHING to him, guardian just over heal their dmg (lot of tou and healing)

4. My necro conditioner/tank just make on them 10 bleeds and they mostly gone with doing nothing (lot of tou hp and condi dmg)

5. Warrior half bunker with shouts loling around too cause heal > thier dmg (lot of tou healing and hp and condi dmg)

6. As plaing as thief there is no way to kill any bunker in 1v1 while you get owned badly tell me more thiefs is op when there is immortal bunkers in 1v3 in game

7. Only class that got right to use berserker is thief, rest of you change your builds a bit and you will get profit, cause if you play glass cannon other glass canon kill you easy, don’t QQ if you got 0 def and hp you get owned by 1 combo from thief cause my heros got lot of tou and hp and can can even 3 thief when jump on me easy
thief glass canon > any other glass canon in game

Video or its not true… Just saying. Also, being forced Toughness / Healing on all characters to deal with 1 profession? That’s not a good thing.

he is r27 so its not that bad …
if I catch any 1v1 situation with my memser or guardian vs high rank thief, I will post too but it will be the same. With engi thief kill him self etc etc etc

3:34 rank show

Rez, if they hit hard want to be at your back. they only can be stealthed for so long. Once culling, and if culling is fixed you have 4-5, barring refuge, and if they leave that revealed for 3 s, they can only move so far and have a small window where they can hit theircombo. If escaping, dependingon player, can easily throw you off. Anyone can.

Flash, Rtl, speed, aura, rtl, all the while healinf.
Warrior leap/spin/shout.
Blink, decoy/tasm, veil

‘Free look’ option. We pop up somewhere. Any is capable of outsmarting you.one

Edit: i hate phone foruming.

Kyrion.2749:

Nuzt.7894:

When you see a class popping in and out in the middle of an enemy zerg there is a clear indication that something is wrong, 1 player unafraid of 20+ ? Why are you even asking for feedback at this point.

Not much of a choice when our weaponset is primarily melee weapons and 900 range ranged weapons. Give thieves 1200-1500 range weapons, as the rest of classes, and you won’t see them as often on the middle of enemy zergs.
Oh, and all those players are certainly afraid of 20+ people… that’s why they use stealth.

Nuzt.7894:

Start by knocking down their speed so players can catch them and make them face the poor decision they made.

Which is choosing the thief profession, right?

Your missing the point, the fact that a thief will hang around in the middle of an enemy zerg without a worry speaks volumes. No class should be fearless of a zerg when they are solo.

The poor decision could be anything from trying to solo a gull group to just picking the wrong fight.

A very specific play style for thieves is too synergistic for its own good. Stealth + high damage hits + initiative system creates a potential for very high offensive and defensive capabilities from the same choice.

Stealth itself allows a thief to 1.) make an opponent lose target (which has a varying degree of impact contingent upon the opponent’s class, weapon & utility selection), 2.) regain the thief’s initiative (for other classes, basically a full cooldown reset) 3.) regain health (with a greatly lowered chance of taking damage to counter regen), and 4.) obtain the use of high-damage opening attacks.

After using one of those high damage openers, thieves are basically encouraged to just spam the ‘best’ ability on the toolbar. Being constrained only by initiative and not time creates this issue. While the player should be forced to space out attacks in fear of running out of resource, they can simply circumvent this by going back into stealth. Which gives all of the benefits previously described.

This compounding of utility, offense, and defense is obtained with making little sacrifice or choice. Thieves get all three from the same choices, and while other classes do as well, I feel their respective gains are not quite so large. This is what makes it frustrating for other players.

I personally feel CnD should be replaced; all stealth abilities should only be utility skills. Improve stealth to add invulnerability if that’s what it takes to balance it. Or, at the very least, look at adding a cooldown to CnD (like 30s).

Remove thief stealth skills, add a class skill “stealth”, which will be next to “steal”.
New stealth will last indefinitely, costs 2 initiative to activate, takes 2.33 initiative per second (so in total they’ll lose 1 initiative per second after the natural regeneration of the stat).

No more “I burst, I fail, I stealth, I run”.
This will force them to consider when to use stealth defensively or offensively.

Problem solved.

IMO- Basilisk Venom needs a C/D nerf, and I think that would over all balance thief a in a way making the assassinations more of an informed decision instead of run away try again.

We’re talking about the shortest C/D elite skill in the game and it’s a guaranteed win vs glass cannons? Not even Mesmer’s Moa gives that luxury anymore, and when it did it was on a 180 c/d?

“so counter it?” well that would imply someone has an invulnerability lasting longer than 2 sec? Or a stability/stun breaker like move that actually involves moving from current location. Even If countered properly we’re still looking at a glass or hybrid build at less than half HP, and a lot of the skills to counter this have a longer C/D. In addition this is all while trying to anticipate an invisible target opening with it. (could also make Bask venom break cloak but I`m sure ppl would find it useless then)

Not to say the effect is unfair just how often it can be done!

Spoils duels and tpvp 1v1s – Just run away for 45 sec and try again for the instant win after being countered?

Spoils team fights – for every thief in a team that is 1 bursty person out of a team fight every 45 seconds if you consider how fast they will drop from the thief alone.

I propose a 120 second C/D.

Why?:
So there is a real hazard to countering it in all situations. This hazard will make it a less relied on move and allow a thief be more mindful of how to approach things.

In a team fight: a longer C/D will make it a selection of who’s life to end for a strategic advantage over a point, and promote more team coordination.

For Duel enthusiasts: No one will put up with someone running for 2 min, making a fair hazard to actually countering it. (forcing the thief to actually fight or people will just leave)

1v1ing outside of duels be it roam or side point: The C/D I propose makes it so it`s not just a insta gank on all but bunkers and more of a choice of when to use it.

A longer C/D will also open up more and creative options for application instead of just trying to open with it, giving the skill more value.

Lots of people would/will disagree with me, But I truly think it’d be fair. I’m also an advocate of giving the stun it’s original duration.

Unanimous, Oh yea because at the moment we just throw stealth randomly because it’s cool and we have plenty of it, same goes with our 150 pool of initiative btw.

Daishi, basilisc venom is actually a great way to know you are going to get spiked, you know, with you whole screen flashing !!!! YOU’VE BEEN PARALYZED !!!!, it’s actually a great way to reflex pop your or one of your CC cure.
And by no means an instant kill…

As a thief myself i’ll keep on saying that the rotation BS is perfect as it is, the issue comes from the ability to 222222222222 right after it, autoaim, high damage, low initiative consumption.
Although it has its share of counters too (for exemple cripple will halve the distance a HS can cross.)

Thadren Calder.1397:

Unload has an activation time of 1.75 seconds. Multiplied by 4 is 7 seconds. Haste then makes that 3.5 seconds. With traits thieves have 15 initiative. Opportunist grants a 20% chance to regain 1 initiative with a 1 second cool down. 3 unloads by itself is 24 shots so in 3 seconds your going to get 3 of the 5 more initiative you need for the 4th unload. You naturally regenerate initiative at 1 per 1.33 seconds. so all you need is 2.66 seconds to get 2 more for the final unload burst. Since were talking about 4 seconds of haste we have to work with it sure is easy to get that 5 more initiative for the 4th unload.

You’re starting with the false assumption that activation time = the amount of time it takes to fully use an Unload before you can use another one, which is not accurate. Activation time is only loosely related to how long it takes to use an ability, as easy demonstrated by the fact that you cannot use Dancing Dagger 4 times a second, do an entire Pistol Whip in less than a second, or get off two auto attacks a second. Part of the reason that Unload has mediocre DPS is that it actually takes longer than the stated activation time to fully utilize the ability.

Rezzet.3614:

Selver.1307:

Stealth is fine. Fix culling, reavealed to 4 seconds if not enough. If you cant target, immobilize, beat down a thief in that time, you are both wasting time. One or both of you need more. It’s not like prediction is difficult.

why does everyone use that as excuse prediction really? everyone seem to forget Thiefs are also persons With Brains and wont do the same patterns and such over and over you might see him running to the rightfor a moment but he could dodge roll and run to the left or behind you the next moment while stealthed.

Everyone mentions it because it is true. The best way to combat stealth is to read enemy movements and continue being aggressive even when you lose your tab target. If the thief is trying to be deceptive with their movements instead of taking the fastest route to their objective then they are making a conscious decision to trade efficiency for evasion. It is a rich metagame that develops between the movements of both players based on prediction and counter-prediction, a metagame that gets thrown completely out the window when half the people presented with stealth stand there or wander off.

Can a thief learn to move deceptively in stealth to make themselves harder to read? Absolutely. Do most thieves actually do so? No, because there isn’t any point when so few people try to counter stealth.

Daishi.6027:

IMO- Basilisk Venom needs a C/D nerf, and I think that would over all balance thief a in a way making the assassinations more of an informed decision instead of run away try again.

We’re talking about the shortest C/D elite skill in the game and it’s a guaranteed win vs glass cannons?

Wait, you don’t take a stun breaker ability in PvP? Confident much are we?

stof.9341:

Daishi.6027:

IMO- Basilisk Venom needs a C/D nerf, and I think that would over all balance thief a in a way making the assassinations more of an informed decision instead of run away try again.

We’re talking about the shortest C/D elite skill in the game and it’s a guaranteed win vs glass cannons?

Wait, you don’t take a stun breaker ability in PvP? Confident much are we?

Did I ever say I didn’t?