Guild Wars 2

I find the Thief fairly balanced, but the MAJOR thing I have an issue with is how STEALTH is working.

Being able to be hit with Targeting Abilities is a “No No!” in stealth mechanic game-play. The fact that I can be hit with abilities that “REQUIRE” a target while I’m stealthed… is disheartening. You might as well not play the Thief because you “THINK” it’s a stealthy “Rogue” like class from the other MMORPGS… In fact the way the current stealth mechanics are working out, you might as well call it a “Chubiewoobie” class…. What ever that is… because it’s not a Stealthy/Rogue like class in it’s current state.

I’m not asking or informing about a low amount of stealth time, but the way it’s allowing people to still target attack you. Lunges, throws, zapps w/e if it’s a skill that needs a target, and you go stealth you’re getting hit.

Hopes.4512:

The fact that I can be hit with abilities that “REQUIRE” a target while I’m stealthed… is disheartening.

This is not true, target-required attacks will not hit without a target selected, so they can never hit a stealthed target.

The problem you’re having is getting used to the fact that most GW2 attacks are not target required. That is just how the combat system works. Being able to hit stealth with free aimed attacks is exactly how it should work given GW2’s combat system and implementation of stealth.

Tulisin.6945:

Hopes.4512:

The fact that I can be hit with abilities that “REQUIRE” a target while I’m stealthed… is disheartening.

This is not true, target-required attacks will not hit without a target selected, so they can never hit a stealthed target.

The problem you’re having is getting used to the fact that most GW2 attacks are not target required. That is just how the combat system works. Being able to hit stealth with free aimed attacks is exactly how it should work given GW2’s combat system and implementation of stealth.

I think he’s refering to things like Leap channels not losing thier target when the target stealths mid-channel.

Backstab can hit for big numbers, but if your target is running around you can hardly get behind them to use it.

Tulisin.6945:

Hopes.4512:

The fact that I can be hit with abilities that “REQUIRE” a target while I’m stealthed… is disheartening.

This is not true, target-required attacks will not hit without a target selected, so they can never hit a stealthed target.

IT IS true. I have been hit by Eviscerate and Backstab thousand times.you can make the following test with some friend: Let him Shadow Refuge and stays at the center of the SR field.You go in Stealth and start spamming 1 at the place he must be.Or use Eviscerate towards that place if you are with warrior.You will see…

ZLE.8293:

Tulisin.6945:

Hopes.4512:

The fact that I can be hit with abilities that “REQUIRE” a target while I’m stealthed… is disheartening.

This is not true, target-required attacks will not hit without a target selected, so they can never hit a stealthed target.

IT IS true. I have been hit by Eviscerate and Backstab thousand times.you can make the following test with some friend: Let him Shadow Refuge and stays at the center of the SR field.You go in Stealth and start spamming 1 at the place he must be.Or use Eviscerate towards that place if you are with warrior.You will see…

Neither of those attacks are target required attacks, why would stealth prevent them? Hopes claimed that target required skills could hit stealth, which is not true.

I think you are mistaking a Skill that doesn’t require target with Skill that benefit from “Auto Promote Target” option.The problem is that they benefit regardless of the target being Stealthed.
Edit:Let me put it this way:I am OK that Stealth should not prevent Damage.If a guy starts to swinging greatsword at the place that i disappeared,that’s OK.But changing to axe and hitting me with Eviscerate more than 2 seconds after i disappeared (and not at the same place) is stupid.At least 1 Heartseeker(2-3 if with Haste) hit you as well right after you go in Stealth.If leap attacks doesn’t qualify as target requiring i don’t know what does.

we, the big group of players are proposing that, whenever the thief enters stealth, to automatically enter a downed state. By implementing this FIX, it brings balance to the game.

XD

I would simply like to see it as more terrain dependent or something in that vein. I mean, when I think of a Thief, I don’t think of someone vanishing from sight right in front of me in the middle of a well lit, open field, much less for any prolonged length of time. We can blame “culling, not the class” all day, but if it turns out they can’t fix it in any meaningful way, something else has to be done.

Sil.4560:

What I’m saying is that no class should just have the opportunity to run away from any given situation, 100% of the time, whenever they please,

The use of ‘should’ is rather inappropriate here, the game is not designed to your wishes. That some may be able to run away from a lost fight with you may not be to your liking, but it’s just that, what you like or don’t like. What it should be is determined by the vision of the makers and if the books are an indication of this vision, a Thief being able to get away from a nasty situation is part of that vision.

As to your complaint, your posts sound spoiled because of the use of ‘should’ where ‘_I (don’t) like_’ is more appropriate.

… in your inconsistent mind …

Pot, kettle, black.

The problem is that they can disappear and take off in any given direction and the terrain – or culling – will more often than not give them ample time to be invisible forever, …

The most reusable source of stealth yields 3 seconds of stealth, 4 when traited for it. Not enough to disappear from sight without using the terrain, obstacles and height differences to break the line of sight, npc’s to get a new cloak from. Whether this is considered skill or not is up to the reader. Culling needs to be fixed, I don’t think anyone disagrees on that point.

More often than not, these Thieves will be the ones attacking our own Dolyaks and so must be dealt with.

So, actually you did win the fight? He was chased off and the Dolyak saved?

ZLE.8293:

.If leap attacks doesn’t qualify as target requiring i don’t know what does.

For thieves? Infiltrator’s Strike is a good example. It cannot be manually aimed, it requires a target if you want it to hit something. Same with Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet. Most leaps do not require a target, if you don’t have a target you can manually aim them and successfully hit the first viable target you encounter.

frans.8092:

The use of ‘should’ is rather inappropriate here, the game is not designed to your wishes. That some may be able to run away from a lost fight with you may not be to your liking, but it’s just that, what you like or don’t like.

Here’s another one: What you just said should be understood as common sense. I’m not going to sugar coat everything I say with “in my personal opinion”, etc.

What it should be is determined by the vision of the makers and if the books are an indication of this vision, a Thief being able to get away from a nasty situation is part of that vision.

Obviously if this vision weren’t open to some sort of flexibility, they would not have created a feedback thread asking for player opinion on the matter. I gave my thoughts and some particularly vocal individuals don’t like them. Oops.

As to your complaint, your posts sound spoiled because of the use of ‘should’ where ‘_I (don’t) like_’ is more appropriate.=

Pot, kettle, black.

This is just more of the above, nitpicking on an inconsequential part of my post along with calling me a hypocrite – absent of any explanation, mind you – because you most certainly feel it discredits me somehow. As I said, I’m not going to sugar coat my posts. Don’t like that I use the word “should” instead of “I don’t like”? Tough kitten. Much like how you claim my view of the game doesn’t necessarily constitute what “needs” to be, your view of my posts exists under much of the same idea. Who the hell cares anyway? I doubt the developers reading this thread are going to be magically swayed into taking one course of action because I used the word “should”.

The most reusable source of stealth yields 3 seconds of stealth, 4 when traited for it. Not enough to disappear from sight without using the terrain, obstacles and height differences to break the line of sight, npc’s to get a new cloak from. Whether this is considered skill or not is up to the reader. Culling needs to be fixed, I don’t think anyone disagrees on that point.

Yes, this is why I said before that one or the other needs fixed. They seem to be having a great deal of trouble with the culling issue, so I don’t have high hopes in that regard. Thus I’m speaking under the idea that it won’t necessarily be fixed.

So, actually you did win the fight? He was chased off and the Dolyak saved?

Correct. Although it doesn’t really address the issue that they can hang around and fight until they know they can’t win, and still have a 100% escape route. There doesn’t seem to be much of any actual risk to the Thief.

Tulisin.6945:

ZLE.8293:

.If leap attacks doesn’t qualify as target requiring i don’t know what does.

For thieves? Infiltrator’s Strike is a good example. It cannot be manually aimed, it requires a target if you want it to hit something. Same with Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet.

Those are NOT leaps ,but Shadowsteps.You can leap-travel with HS,because it’s a Leap(Leap:fast jumping you know).You cannot travel faster forward with Inf Signet,because it’s not a Leap,OK?

Sil.4560:

Here’s another one: What you just said should be understood as common sense. I’m not going to sugar coat everything I say with “in my personal opinion”, etc.

I read what you write, not what you intended to say, and I am not going to blame myself for not being psychic. Your choice of a particular expression from a number of alternatives is your choice alone and it has consequences for how your messages is read.

What it should be is determined by the vision of the makers and if the books are an indication of this vision, a Thief being able to get away from a nasty situation is part of that vision.

Obviously if this vision weren’t open to some sort of flexibility, they would not have created a feedback thread asking for player opinion on the matter.

I guess we have different opinions then.

… calling me a hypocrite …

You are using inconsistent mind against somebody while you complain when I say your posts sound spoiled. That’s a rather … inconsistent view I think.

As I said, I’m not going to sugar coat my posts. Don’t like that I use the word “should” instead of “I don’t like”? Tough kitten.

Well, then, you don’t like it if your posts come over as spoiled? Though kitten.

Correct. Although it doesn’t really address the issue that they can hang around and fight until they know they can’t win, and still have a 100% escape route. There doesn’t seem to be much of any actual risk to the Thief.

Escape is irrelevant, the objective is to protect / destroy the resource shipment, you succeeded, he failed. Wvw is not about killing pc’s, that may be a means to a goal, but it is not a goal in itself (unless it is a goal you set for yourself).

Edit;
To Add, I find escape irrelevant compared to the actual balance during a fight. We can look at issues between fights when professions are well balanced during a fight.

Stealth in this game has not really developed well compared to many other games. The Culling Issue is a serious problem. You could be in WvW, running to a point, moving around npc’s, trying not to get slowed down, then you hear “ting ting-ting” and numbers float from your screen, and you quickly try to dodgeroll, find an ability to use, but at this point its probably too late, and while yes, while it is possible to maybe respond to a situation like that, I really think its not gonna work out for you.

I understand how ArenaNet tried to develop the thief class, but I feel like they took the “Damage vs Survivability” possibility a little too far, and they really need to limit the extent that it can go. I love “agility” classes, but well developed games are able to limit this balance so as not to put a ton of pressure (going all the way back to a waypoint, then running back, along with a repair fee) all depending on 3 seconds of completely unexpected battle.

An enjoyable battle comes from about 10-30 seconds of intense combat, fighting and analyzing your enemies, stunning and dodging at the right times. That is what is fun for everyone. You can still have thieves that ambush players, quickly gaining a fast advantage over them, but not winning based on that. The dynamic combat GW2 was promised to create is a battle with many different abilities used in smart combinations, dodging and interrupting with abilities, and having a unique combat experience with every player you run into, learning and getting better. A three second combat sequence is not dynamic, not unique, and really not fun for anyone involved, especially when you are unable to even see your opponent.

Arena Net needs to admit that they dropped the ball. They need to limit the Damage vs. Survivability tradeoff for thieves and any other “2 shot class”, especially with the culling bug. They need to make it right, and they need to do it soon.

Welswift.9813:

Stealth in this game has not really developed well compared to many other games. The Culling Issue is a serious problem. You could be in WvW, running to a point, moving around npc’s, trying not to get slowed down, then you hear “ting ting-ting” and numbers float from your screen, and you quickly try to dodgeroll, find an ability to use, but at this point its probably too late, and while yes, while it is possible to maybe respond to a situation like that, I really think its not gonna work out for you.

I understand how ArenaNet tried to develop the thief class, but I feel like they took the “Damage vs Survivability” possibility a little too far, and they really need to limit the extent that it can go. I love “agility” classes, but well developed games are able to limit this balance so as not to put a ton of pressure (going all the way back to a waypoint, then running back, along with a repair fee) all depending on 3 seconds of completely unexpected battle.

An enjoyable battle comes from about 10-30 seconds of intense combat, fighting and analyzing your enemies, stunning and dodging at the right times. That is what is fun for everyone. You can still have thieves that ambush players, quickly gaining a fast advantage over them, but not winning based on that. The dynamic combat GW2 was promised to create is a battle with many different abilities used in smart combinations, dodging and interrupting with abilities, and having a unique combat experience with every player you run into, learning and getting better. A three second combat sequence is not dynamic, not unique, and really not fun for anyone involved, especially when you are unable to even see your opponent.

Arena Net needs to admit that they dropped the ball. They need to limit the Damage vs. Survivability tradeoff for thieves and any other “2 shot class”, especially with the culling bug. They need to make it right, and they need to do it soon.

That may be your opinion, but there’s a LOT of other players who are fine with stealth as it is and know how to fight against it.

Maybe it’s time some players admit they’re not always correct? I know I’m not so I don’t bother QQing about OP things until I exhausted all my resources on figuring a way to beat it, and I have lol.

Here’s the problem with this thread: It’s gone on too long. Almost every time someone pops in, they don’t bother reading the past pages, and the debate ends up repeating -.-.

Stealth is fine other than the culling issues here and there in WvW. That’s it.

Actually, channeled abilities such as ranger’s Rapid Fire will follow a target in stealth.

Tulisin.6945:

ZLE.8293:

.If leap attacks doesn’t qualify as target requiring i don’t know what does.

For thieves? Infiltrator’s Strike is a good example. It cannot be manually aimed, it requires a target if you want it to hit something. Same with Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet.

Technically, this is false. You can very well hit your target with IS, should it be in the sword’s AOE cone. You will obviously not teleport forward, but IS is a sword AOE attack just like everything else, so if you used it near a stealthed player they would be immobilized and sustain it’s paltry damage. Not saying you benefit much from this, but it happens.

Also, I’ll accidentally tap steal from time to time, and it’ll go off to it’s good ’ol 45 second cooldown with absolutely no benefit. Just saying, it can be used (if only for buffs from TotC) without a target.

Laika.8795:

Tulisin.6945:

ZLE.8293:

.If leap attacks doesn’t qualify as target requiring i don’t know what does.

For thieves? Infiltrator’s Strike is a good example. It cannot be manually aimed, it requires a target if you want it to hit something. Same with Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet.

Technically, this is false. You can very well hit your target with IS, should it be in the sword’s AOE cone. You will obviously not teleport forward, but IS is a sword AOE attack just like everything else, so if you used it near a stealthed player they would be immobilized and sustain it’s paltry damage. Not saying you benefit much from this, but it happens.

Also, I’ll accidentally tap steal from time to time, and it’ll go off to it’s good ’ol 45 second cooldown with absolutely no benefit. Just saying, it can be used (if only for buffs from TotC) without a target.

Steal will go on a CD with no target, but it’s not the standard 45 sec CD (it’s reduced to a fraction of that). And without a target, you won’t get any buffs.

I’m not sure if you can get steal to go off when a stealthed player is next to you and you have no target though.

Topher.1684:

Steal will go on a CD with no target, but it’s not the standard 45 sec CD (it’s reduced to a fraction of that). And without a target, you won’t get any buffs.

It does go off, and I’m not sure of the circumstances, with no target and give the full CD, as I’ve experienced several times. Perhaps it’s a bug, but it frustrates the hell out of me.

Until culling is fixed, stealth should have a “fade” time equal to the culling timeframe.

Easy.

I shouldnt be saying this because i love the thief class but here you go.
Yes i play a thief and i enjoy the thief but people who havent played one dont know how to counter one. Its very simple to be able to kill a thief. All classes are capable of it, every one knows that thief are a stealth mobile class. If you can find a way the counter that you win. Hmm i wonder how?? Cripple, freeze, stun, immobilize, knockdown, knock-back. If you manage to even land one of these condition you most likely won because it forces us thiefs to use our invisibily skill. Which we use for opener. Every class has multiple skills which allows them to be able to put these type of conditions on a thief.
Conclusion depending on what class your playing get some skill that can apply ether cripple, stuns, knockdown, and more then open with some cc and there you have a dead thief while you walk over there dead corpse laughing. ??

@Sil, I love the way you said it, and your right about that.

But as a Thief, if a warrior or elementalist uses his mobility skills to run away and they have a decent body, theres no way I can catch up with them.

Mobility Skills being just the basicly sword 2 or great-sword whirl and rush, two common weaponsets.

However, I can get away from pretty much anything, however, this fact doesn’t help my team.

I used to run around with some people, and they always complained that I should stand and fight and die with them, they were always angry because they said I ran away too early all the time, but the truth is, a thief can’t really stand and fight, if we’re not constantly abusing our stealths and mobility, we are finished.

I think that’s kind of it, too. They need the option to be able to hang around and not be pretty much forced to run away. A part of this is probably because it feels like we’re funneled into certain builds, but the class as a whole is either “kill them immediately or run for the hills”. No other profession really is forced into that. Like you said, it’s not the greatest team mechanic in that regard which is what also bothers me about it.

Laika.8795:

Topher.1684:

Steal will go on a CD with no target, but it’s not the standard 45 sec CD (it’s reduced to a fraction of that). And without a target, you won’t get any buffs.

It does go off, and I’m not sure of the circumstances, with no target and give the full CD, as I’ve experienced several times. Perhaps it’s a bug, but it frustrates the hell out of me.

Do you have auto target on? It might be targeting a bug or something near you… I haven’t had auto target turned on for a while now. Auto target might also be trying to steal from someone you can’t reach if you have auto target turned on (someone behind a wall or on a different elevation or something). The only time I ever encountered this was vs bosses (purple rings, some gold) where steal goes on cd, i get the buffs, but don’t steal anything. If you don’t have auto target on, then I’m not sure what’s causing this, as I’ve not experienced it (other then when I mentioned).

Topher.1684:

Laika.8795:

Topher.1684:

Steal will go on a CD with no target, but it’s not the standard 45 sec CD (it’s reduced to a fraction of that). And without a target, you won’t get any buffs.

It does go off, and I’m not sure of the circumstances, with no target and give the full CD, as I’ve experienced several times. Perhaps it’s a bug, but it frustrates the hell out of me.

Do you have auto target on? It might be targeting a bug or something near you… I haven’t had auto target turned on for a while now. Auto target might also be trying to steal from someone you can’t reach if you have auto target turned on (someone behind a wall or on a different elevation or something). The only time I ever encountered this was vs bosses (purple rings, some gold) where steal goes on cd, i get the buffs, but don’t steal anything. If you don’t have auto target on, then I’m not sure what’s causing this, as I’ve not experienced it (other then when I mentioned).

I do have auto target on. Perhaps this is the cause, but steal (on such a ridiculous timer) should really have checks and balances for this kind of stuff. :\

I love the thief deff not op.

Sil.4560:

I’m not here to argue some semantic crap with you, guy.

Lets put it in simpler terms, the way in which you put something down and the choices you make from the available alternatives reveal a lot about your attitude, and who you are.

… In no way does the above statement even make sense,

I half expected that, let me put it in a more direct manner then, you attack someone in the same post where you complain about feeling attacked.

I don’t much care how you interpret my posts,

You choose your words, and with them the interpretation. I can not read your mind. Stop avoiding responsibility for your words.

It appears to be a bit of a pattern:
“You’d be reading that to be deliberately obtuse then”

It actually is relevant, because it effectively allows the Thief to retreat just far enough away to reset the fight whenever he or she chooses.

The reset is shared, you’re both on a fresh start, just as it would have been had he been defeated, waypoint travel is fast and free. Now if you learned more from him then he from you, the next encounter end even more in your favour.

And, did he return?

ZLE.8293:

Tulisin.6945:

ZLE.8293:

.If leap attacks doesn’t qualify as target requiring i don’t know what does.

For thieves? Infiltrator’s Strike is a good example. It cannot be manually aimed, it requires a target if you want it to hit something. Same with Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet.

Those are NOT leaps ,but Shadowsteps.You can leap-travel with HS,because it’s a Leap(Leap:fast jumping you know).You cannot travel faster forward with Inf Signet,because it’s not a Leap,OK?

You said you didn’t know what a target required attack was, so I explained it with some examples. I never implied shadowsteps were leaps, my explanation was quite the opposite, even.

Laika

Technically, this is false. You can very well hit your target with IS, should it be in the sword’s AOE cone. You will obviously not teleport forward, but IS is a sword AOE attack just like everything else, so if you used it near a stealthed player they would be immobilized and sustain it’s paltry damage. Not saying you benefit much from this, but it happens.

You’re right, the sword attack still works as it normally would. Good examples are hard to find in thief skills. Necromancers have some better examples of true damage skills that straight up cannot do anything without a target, even if you have an unstealthed enemy right in front of you.

ASP.8093:

So, what is it exactly that GW2 is supposed to learn from Dungeons & Dragons (3rd edition)?

That it’s systems should at least try to make a lick of sense, and have ways to be countered – right now a Thief who is on fire, being pecked by a flock of birds, and has a sword lodged in his skull can vanish instantly and be utterly un-findable (like in D&D you can at least search! And build to be good at spotting hidden kitten!) for the duration of the skill.

Nonsensical, undoubtedly. Whatever your opinion on D&D stealth, it at least nods it’s head in the direction of common sense.

[quote=1144886;Mikey.1456:If you can find a way the counter that you win. Hmm i wonder how?? Cripple, freeze, stun, immobilize, knockdown, knock-back.
[/quote]

One Shadowstep negates any and all of that.

A better combo than Mug/C&D is Shadowstep/C&D, it has better range, gives you a get-out-of-jail-free card, and leaves Mug off cooldown for another combo straight after.

Not as face-roll though. Good Thief is nigh un-killable and murders at will, bad Thief dies like anyone else who comes unprepared.

Why everyone thinks he must be able to avoid all thives attacks and thives must not escape from his overwhelming skill panel mouseclicks?

The reset is controlled by the Thief, that is my point. The other classes cannot opt to do this.

Elementalists can , and even better.So start from there then come back to Thief.

I don’t think it’s especially necessary to start with the Elementalist and come back to Thief. I would expect that Anet is assessing the balance of all of their classes, not just this one.

Now whether they can do it better…I’m not sure about that. Part of this issue may again come back to the culling but complete invisibility and being able to zip quite a distance away while under its effects is pretty powerful. Even as an Elementalist escaping a small group, I have to contend with things like immobilize and cripple while I’m in motion, simply due to the fact that they can see – and more importantly, target – me.

Sorry for my english…

LoL. Why no escape? WHY? Because you want to, right? All classes have mechanics to be more strong. Why do you ask to nerf thieves mechanics? Because it is easier than learn to play your class or to train reaction?

At this moment – invisibility is the worst defence mechanic. Worse than heavy armor, “0 damage to me” abilities, infinite evades etc.

Stealth lasts too small amount of time thieves receive all damage all this period, unless they used dodge just after going into stealth. But they can evade attacks same way without going into stealth.

To make stealth viable def mechanic, arena.net must increase time of stealth and break every channeling skill. You whine about nerf? huh? Try to play thief first. And no, your kill another noob with 2-2-2-2 i will not count as proof.

I tried all classes and thieves are easiest enemies. Especially when they think 2-2-2-2-2 is a great idea.

But to be honest, they must rework many thief skills, because (LOL) 2-2-2-2 is really one of the best tactics. It was designed to 2-2-2-2 only, others skills do not work well. I want more usable skills! 4-5 almost not usable in serious combat.

Every class has great combos and sinergy of skills like charge+control+burst, they dont need to spam one button, because they have other great skills! Only thieves having initiative are cursed to use 2-2-2-2-2 only. Evade two attacks and kill him easy with one burst. I give you this idea for free. It works for me and may be will work for you unless you use your skills with mouse clicks.

Well to be fair I’d actually like to see Thieves more able to hold their ground in a fight without needing to retreat to reset it. I think the fact that they’re sort of funneled into one build type causes this problem.

Sil.4560:

I don’t think it’s especially necessary to start with the Elementalist and come back to Thief. I would expect that Anet is assessing the balance of all of their classes, not just this one.

Now whether they can do it better…I’m not sure about that. Part of this issue may again come back to the culling but complete invisibility and being able to zip quite a distance away while under its effects is pretty powerful. Even as an Elementalist escaping a small group, I have to contend with things like immobilize and cripple while I’m in motion, simply due to the fact that they can see – and more importantly, target – me.

So mister Elementalist here comes to Thief forum to complain about Thief’s ability to escape?Are you kittening whit us or do you realy want to be taken seriously?
Elementalist has the best mobility in game , hands down.If you decide that you want to escape theres absolutely no one who can catch you, as if you’d need to escape.
Yes I’d love to be able to hold my ground more as a Thief , you know , like AN ELEMENTALIST.
And don’t trow me that stealth BS argument.What stealth , How far do you think you’ll manage to escape in 3 seconds Stealth?
Shadow refuge ? A thief in shadow refuge is a dead Thief.
So yes buddy, if anything ,start whit elementalist first.
hypocrites

I do play more classes than just Elementalist, haha.

Anyway, I’d say D/D Ele (one particular style, not necessarily the class innately) has good mobility, yes. However, being able to run in any direction and gaining a huge head start on whoever you are fleeing from by virtue of their not knowing what direction you went is pretty good mobility in terms of escape also, considering the rather limited potential of most other classes in this regard. That in itself is fine.

I recognize that you are trying to avoid this argument because you believe your stealth inadequate (or perhaps it’s just the easy way out to point a finger at a different class instead), but in its current state, it is an extremely viable escape route, sorry. Assuming the culling problems are corrected, this may not be the case, however this is the state we exist in:

The problem as I see it is that the Thieves I have encountered have been in stealth for much longer than the three seconds you describe (or at the least certainly longer than the duration on their skills would suggest), to the point where I have watched them vanish in front of a group and despite multiple eyes scanning in a 360 degree radius, was never able to spot them again. This is not another “L2P” incident. If stealth is as short as you suggested, it should be an easy matter to spot the fleeing player to pursue.

Is what I described merely the class working as intended? A developer would have to answer that. Either way, I don’t find it balanced, myself; if it is the unintentional result of culling, either that visibility problem must be fixed or the mechanic should be changed as necessary to better suit intended design as a workaround to how culling effects invisibility and a knowing Thief’s ability to escape most situations entirely risk free as a result. I don’t really see why this idea is being met with such strong hostility.

Docherty.8372:

ASP.8093:

So, what is it exactly that GW2 is supposed to learn from Dungeons & Dragons (3rd edition)?

That it’s systems should at least try to make a lick of sense, and have ways to be countered

HIPS – Hide in Plain Sight

DnD wasn’t meant for computer games and it’s rules are not fit for them, there’s way too many trash mobs in computer game which make the DnD rules unbalanced.

Sil.4560:

I do play more classes than just Elementalist, haha.

Anyway, I’d say D/D Ele (one particular style, not necessarily the class innately) has good mobility, yes. However, being able to run in any direction and gaining a huge head start on whoever you are fleeing from by virtue of their not knowing what direction you went is pretty good mobility in terms of escape also, considering the rather limited potential of most other classes in this regard. That in itself is fine.

I recognize that you are trying to avoid this argument because you believe your stealth inadequate (or perhaps it’s just the easy way out to point a finger at a different class instead), but in its current state, it is an extremely viable escape route, sorry. Assuming the culling problems are corrected, this may not be the case, however this is the state we exist in:

The problem as I see it is that the Thieves I have encountered have been in stealth for much longer than the three seconds you describe (or at the least certainly longer than the duration on their skills would suggest), to the point where I have watched them vanish in front of a group and despite multiple eyes scanning in a 360 degree radius, was never able to spot them again. This is not another “L2P” incident. If stealth is as short as you suggested, it should be an easy matter to spot the fleeing player to pursue.

Is what I described merely the class working as intended? A developer would have to answer that. Either way, I don’t find it balanced, myself; if it is the unintentional result of culling, either that visibility problem must be fixed or the mechanic should be changed as necessary to better suit intended design as a workaround to how culling effects invisibility and a knowing Thief’s ability to escape most situations entirely risk free as a result. I don’t really see why this idea is being met with such strong hostility.

What argument , you have none.This is about Thief’s gameplay not some game mode whit issues that I personaly don’t even experience.A game mode thats not even intended to be balanced that way.So what argument do you even have to claim Thief is not a balanced class.You have none.

NightyNight.1823:

What argument , you have none.This is about Thief’s gameplay not some game mode whit issues that I personaly don’t even experience.A game mode thats not even intended to be balanced that way.So what argument do you even have to claim Thief is not a balanced class.You have none.

He has a lot of arguments and he mentioned them… You are not countering those arguments. In this post your only saying he doesn’t have an argument… That’s… Air.
What you say is like a toothpaste-tube fairly empty and you’re trying your best to squeeze the last bit out which makes sound: “…..bluhfffft”

All his arguments were valid are currently happening in wvw.

I see thieves constantly entering battles (group or 1 v 1) and leaving them whenever they feel like it going in and leaving in stealth mode. And if that’s culling or not, I don’t know. Either way, it has to be fixed. And it’s certainly not a 3 second stealth they’re in. I can see them again when they’re far far away and way way out of max range traited longbow. If ppl want numbers about the distance they travelled in stealth without me moving, I think it’s 2,5 times max range traited longbow, so at least 2,500.

Tulisin.6945:

You’re right, the sword attack still works as it normally would. Good examples are hard to find in thief skills. Necromancers have some better examples of true damage skills that straight up cannot do anything without a target, even if you have an unstealthed enemy right in front of you.

There is one for thieves : Mug doesn’t do any damage without a target.

Bast Bow.2958:

NightyNight.1823:

What argument , you have none.This is about Thief’s gameplay not some game mode whit issues that I personaly don’t even experience.A game mode thats not even intended to be balanced that way.So what argument do you even have to claim Thief is not a balanced class.You have none.

He has a lot of arguments and he mentioned them… You are not countering those arguments. In this post your only saying he doesn’t have an argument… That’s… Air.
What you say is like a toothpaste-tube fairly empty and you’re trying your best to squeeze the last bit out which makes sound: “…..bluhfffft”

All his arguments were valid are currently happening in wvw.

I see thieves constantly entering battles (group or 1 v 1) and leaving them whenever they feel like it going in and leaving in stealth mode. And if that’s culling or not, I don’t know. Either way, it has to be fixed. And it’s certainly not a 3 second stealth they’re in. I can see them again when they’re far far away and way way out of max range traited longbow. If ppl want numbers about the distance they travelled in stealth without me moving, I think it’s 2,5 times max range traited longbow, so at least 2,500.

“I don’t know’’
Exacly , you don’t know.If you had any clue you’d know that Thief stealth mode can’t last more than 3 seconds (4 if traited) .Exept shadowrefuge which is not a viable escape ability and a l2p issue.And if you had any common decency , when you don’t know, you shut up.
Culling is an issue outside Thief proffesion .Which makes thief be in stealth 1-2 seconds longer , buhu.
So yes , you have no argument to atack this proffesion.
If you’re here to cry about the superior mobility , and how you come and go when ever you please ,visit elementalist section first instead.

I would happily go into discussion with you,

But like you did with Sil, you are avoiding the arguements our messages are really about. So enjoy running around in circles, I’m not following you.

If you’re willing to really go into discussion and actually react to what I’m really saying, I’d be glad to.

I’m not going to adress nonesense.
What you’re describing is culling related and Thief is not the only proffesion that gains some unfair advantage.You can have entire zergs drop on you and have them loaded on your screen only after you’re dead.Thats what happens whit every game mode that scale.
What you’re sugesting would affect thief on the whole PvE environment and thats not an option.
If you’re having issues related to culling this is not the place to discuss so take your arguments elsewhere.
If theres a mechanic to Thief that you think is unbalanced I’m willing to listen to any arguments or concerns you might have.
But thats the problem whit most of the people posting in here.Everyone has an oppinion ,too many fail to bring a valid argument or an argument at all.

Hey,

First of all, I love playing the thief. That being said, there are a few areas which definitely need improving.

Stealth is just about right (ignoring any wvw culling issues which are an engine problem rather than a profession issue). It is short so needs to be well timed but can be invaluable when properly used. I cannot tell you how many times a well timed/placed shadow refuge has avoided a total wipe in a dungeon. The stealth traits are very good, I wish I could pick them all but that would probably be a bad thing for balance.

The only thing I would change about stealth is the 1 skill for various weapons. Some just don’t seem to match up to others in terms of usefulness. I wouldn’t mind seeing the shortbow stealth skill buffed up a bit in terms of damage or maybe adding cripple or a bleed. This is just my opinion but it doesn’t seem to fit well with the idea of a stealth shot.

Steal could do with some work. It can be handy sometimes but if it were a utility skill it would probably never be picked. It doesn’t seem worthy of being the thief’s primary selling point or namesake.

As you have probably heard countless times already, p/p needs some serious attention. It is far too cool a combination to be ruined by it’s lack of power and only situational usefulness.

Underwater combat is a big concern for me. The weapons themselves are fine but there are far too many utility skills which are blocked for reasons that do not appear to make any sense. I generally just run a signet build underwater and ignore everything but my weapon skills, which is something that should make the designers of this class and underwater combat slightly disappointed in themselves.

My main issue underwater is the elite slot. Basilisk venom can be very powerful in pvp, but just isn’t that great in pve except when used as an interrupt, which even then feels anything but ‘elite’. Just bite the bullet and give us dagger storm please, if I can throw a spear underwater then I think I can manage a few daggers. If the problem is that this skill doesn’t work with a y axis then add a pivoting action to it. Either that or just give us thieves guild, if I can breath underwater I am sure they will manage it just fine.

Last but not least, Hide in Shadows is a very useful skill that serves a few purposes. The other options are alright but i think they need a bit of a buff to make up for the lack of stealth, which in my opinion is too good to even consider giving up for either of the other skills.

Thanks for reading my rant, I hope it helps!

NightyNight.1823:

What argument , you have none.This is about Thief’s gameplay not some game mode whit issues that I personaly don’t even experience.A game mode thats not even intended to be balanced that way.So what argument do you even have to claim Thief is not a balanced class.You have none.

So basically you didn’t read a word I said. Good to know I won’t need to waste my time with you anymore. Block.

It kills me that my own posts will be infracted while I stay on topic but respond sharply to people who fully deserve it, yet harassing lunatics like frans and people like this guy who contribute absolutely nothing to a thread are allowed to run rampant. I think I entirely understand now why the official forums have the reputation they do. I’m done with this thread.

Looking forward to whatever the patch notes bring.

I play my thief kind of like I would play Zelda, sword/pistol though, I wish I could use sword and shield with thief.

Since my two thoughts were deleted because someone thinks that was too rude. I will use simple words: delete this class – problem solved, nobody will whine anymore.

When thieves were just announced i thought “Wow! This class is designed for me, i like this game style.” I was happy to play as a thief in 1st beta week end. Two-three months of the game promised long good future. 5 months later… WoW i-can-only-click-1-button-a-second-players started to describe how bad their life is.

Seems gw2 will be another pvp game with stealth class nerfed under plinth. Nothing new. May be in next game we will have fun from playing this play style.

Sil.4560:

NightyNight.1823:

What argument , you have none.This is about Thief’s gameplay not some game mode whit issues that I personaly don’t even experience.A game mode thats not even intended to be balanced that way.So what argument do you even have to claim Thief is not a balanced class.You have none.

So basically you didn’t read a word I said. Good to know I won’t need to waste my time with you anymore. Block.

It kills me that my own posts will be infracted while I stay on topic but respond sharply to people who fully deserve it, yet harassing lunatics like frans and people like this guy who contribute absolutely nothing to a thread are allowed to run rampant. I think I entirely understand now why the official forums have the reputation they do. I’m done with this thread.

Looking forward to whatever the patch notes bring.

What did you write? Sorry I looked back 3 pages and only saw fighting. Don’t take this the wrong way, I will actually read your post and respond to it if that’s what you want. It’s hard to keep track of what people say in this thread though, as so many people come here simple to QQ or attack people (which goes to show that this thread is probably being ignored except when people report posts).