Guild Wars 2

Sil.4560:

The problem as I see it is that the Thieves I have encountered have been in stealth for much longer than the three seconds you describe (or at the least certainly longer than the duration on their skills would suggest), to the point where I have watched them vanish in front of a group and despite multiple eyes scanning in a 360 degree radius, was never able to spot them again. This is not another “L2P” incident. If stealth is as short as you suggested, it should be an easy matter to spot the fleeing player to pursue.

This could be one of a few things:
1. Dropping another stealth ability before the first one wears off or shortly after.
2. Moving out beyond visible range during the duration of stealth and/or moving out far enough to fast-travel due to losing combat state.
3. Breaking LoS, so even if they’re not vastly out of range they’re not visible when they reappear because they’re behind a rock or ledge.
4. Letting a thief stand in a SR for full duration, the only way to pull “long” (13~ seconds) of stealth out of a single skill.

The fact of the matter is that stealth is a short term skill, and not very useful as an escape method without mobility.

Strutter

Steal could do with some work. It can be handy sometimes but if it were a utility skill it would probably never be picked. It doesn’t seem worthy of being the thief’s primary selling point or namesake.
…
Last but not least, Hide in Shadows is a very useful skill that serves a few purposes. The other options are alright but i think they need a bit of a buff to make up for the lack of stealth, which in my opinion is too good to even consider giving up for either of the other skills.

Steal has always been hotly debated. It comes down to the fact that Initiative and Steal constitue the thief profession mechanics, and in that light they’re quite significant. Steal is also extremely useful due to being instant, even without all the trait bonuses. The one big issue Steal does have is that it doesn’t mesh well with dictating non-melee range.

As for heal skills, heal skill choice has a lot to do with your synergy set. HiS is amazing with heavy Shadow Arts, but has the longest CD and lowest healing potential to compensate. The other two heal skills are equally amazing, but have different synergies. The thief’s three heal skills are one of the things I think are balanced almost perfectly, each one has its own stand out situations, tons of potential, and they don’t step on eachother’s toes too much.

@Sil.4560

There’s a lot of people here that said very reasonable arguments on what you said in previous posts.

First off, stealth does not seriously need some sort of fix. I’ll state my reasons below.

To me, honestly, the idea of being able to go completely invisible for long enough to retreat half a mile away and reset the fight whenever you please is just absurd.

That is not possible. You go for invisible for 3s with a normal CnD. 4s if you trait for it. Technically, you could go pretty far with that amount of time if you shadowstepped, heart-seeker or arrow away. But to do that, you’re using your utility and pretty much all your initiative. That’s like a last ditch effort. Also, most glass cannons cannot do this because they’re very likely to die on escape or within that 3s of reveal time they have.

There need to be some sort of stealth revealing skills, or tracking skills, or something. I must have chased some Thief around for ten minutes last night on my Elementalist in WvW because he could just go completely invisible and run in some random direction whenever he started getting pressured.

That is how many classes fight (at least I do on my ele too). I use the terrain to my advantage, or kite people around a bit too to thin out the numbers or get them to burn up cooldowns. Also, the thief couldn’t take you down right? Bunker D/D ele? Your DPS is usually not high enough to take down a thief built with toughness/vit. If you’re wondering why… fight another ele with the same exact build as you. I can safely say neither of you will kill each other. That same case happens if you’re facing a pvt geared (or “tanky”) thief. Neither of you have enough DPS to really hurt each other. The thief probably takes a lot more damage than you if he stood still and didn’t stealth, and that’s because thieves don’t have a build that lets them heal and bunker like elementalists. Thus they have stealth to take some of that damage out by not being seen by you. Is it op? I wouldn’t say so. Neither you or him could kill each other, and that’s proof enough of the balance it gives.

Sil.4560:

-snip-

You might wait a lot of time for satisfying patch notes. Anet wants thief to be a class with a lot of escapes.

Also, d/d ele complaining about thieves’ mobility. Hypocrism in its highest form. Nothing can catch an ele.

Tulisin.6945:

This could be one of a few things:
1. Dropping another stealth ability before the first one wears off or shortly after.
2. Moving out beyond visible range during the duration of stealth and/or moving out far enough to fast-travel due to losing combat state.
3. Breaking LoS, so even if they’re not vastly out of range they’re not visible when they reappear because they’re behind a rock or ledge.
4. Letting a thief stand in a SR for full duration, the only way to pull “long” (13~ seconds) of stealth out of a single skill.

I think the most likely scenario would be that he popped stealth and used a non-damage ability (ie inf arrow) that doesn’t break stealth upon use. Even the ever awkward windward heart seeker will do the job, so long as no critters get in the way.

All these stealth complaints still.
Because thief’s escape?

Lol I use Infiltrator’s Strike’s shadow return to escape and I’ll see my opponents swinging at air, thinking I stealthed lol wtf.

Tulisin.6945:

The fact of the matter is that stealth is a short term skill, and not very useful as an escape method without mobility.

Even with Fleet Shadow a 4 second stealth can only take you about to a 1200-1400 range, not far enough to disappear.

frans.8092:

Tulisin.6945:

The fact of the matter is that stealth is a short term skill, and not very useful as an escape method without mobility.

Even with Fleet Shadow a 4 second stealth can only take you about to a 1200-1400 range, not far enough to disappear.

Stealth can’t take you anywhere, the only thing that can take you anywhere is mobility. Stealth can influence that mobility via something like Fleet Shadow, but it is still the running around with a speed buff that is getting you somewhere. Stealth can easily cover enough mobility to move out of visible range if you’re using Heartseeker or shadow steps.

Tulisin.6945:

frans.8092:

Tulisin.6945:

The fact of the matter is that stealth is a short term skill, and not very useful as an escape method without mobility.

Even with Fleet Shadow a 4 second stealth can only take you about to a 1200-1400 range, not far enough to disappear.

Stealth can’t take you anywhere, the only thing that can take you anywhere is mobility. Stealth can influence that mobility via something like Fleet Shadow, but it is still the running around with a speed buff that is getting you somewhere. Stealth can easily cover enough mobility to move out of visible range if you’re using Heartseeker or shadow steps.

Thief stealth and shadowstep as to their ability to escape is balanced.They can indeed put some distance between eachother but they’ve burned through all of their resources and you can easily gain on them.
The only way you can escape as a thief is through Shadowstep and Shadow Return.And even whit that if you keep a little distance you can gain on him on return.Considering he didn’t burned through his stun break already.
So as it is , Theif’s ability to escape is fine.You just need a little bit of knowledge on Thief mechanics.
Now what is not balanced is Elementalist ability to escape.Its simply impossible to gain on them.Permanent swiftness, Ride the Lightning on short CD , even a shadow step of their own.Good Luck catching them.

Pretty much the only thing I would “nerf” on thieves is the stealth spam accessibility vs reward for stealthing vs punishment for bad stealth usage. For instance, how Cloak and Dagger rewards the thief with stealth and aoe blind (if traited) even if you are blocked. This does not encourage the thief to pay attention to enemy boons, or whether the person they are attacking is channeling a block skill, which nullifies most applied damage and blinds since they must actually hit in order to apply. A thief can launch multiple stealth attacks without breaking stealth if he hits a blocking foe, allowing him to spam powerful effects without punishment until his stealth wears off or he lands a hit. Aside from this I don’t have much of a problem with thieves being OP, except for Shortbow.

Why are we even talking about nerfs?Thief is fine.Actualy there are other areas that deverses all this attention instead.

Leuca.5732:

Pretty much the only thing I would “nerf” on thieves is the stealth spam accessibility vs reward for stealthing vs punishment for bad stealth usage. For instance, how Cloak and Dagger rewards the thief with stealth and aoe blind (if traited) even if you are blocked. This does not encourage the thief to pay attention to enemy boons, or whether the person they are attacking is channeling a block skill, which nullifies most applied damage and blinds since they must actually hit in order to apply. A thief can launch multiple stealth attacks without breaking stealth if he hits a blocking foe, allowing him to spam powerful effects without punishment until his stealth wears off or he lands a hit. Aside from this I don’t have much of a problem with thieves being OP, except for Shortbow.

CnD will not put you in stealth if it gets blocked.

I would like to see an adjustment to the way Heartseeker works. The damage is fine, but the mechanics behind it are far too easily spammed for amazing results. Sure there needs to be something that allows new players to feels they have something powerful when playing a thief, but how about we get rid of the heatseeking super long range aspect of heartseeker.

I have several times blinked away from a heartseeker spamming thief only to have them fly to my location since they were in mid-air when I blinked allowing them to travel a range of 900 and still successfully hit me. Restrict the range it allows the thief to move, somebody dodge rolling away should successfully be out of range of a heartseeker spammer. The thief should then have to move into position again to continue their spamming.

I really like the stealth mechanics in mmo games, but it’s always the same issue in PvP. People feels it’s unfair that the class with the highest and fastest burst potential is able to remain out of sight. Now in GW2 it’s out of sight for an entire fight while still dealing damage. You may argue that thief doesn’t stay in stealth for a whole fight because it’s impossible, but when you see first hand a thief kill not 1 but 2 people before giving off that little black cloak flash to reappear you know something isn’t working as intended. It could be lag? Sure but if it’s lag and they just haven’t completely rendered on my screen why can I still not tab target them? I do not have a solution for fixing stealth other than to suggest that they not be able to use skills while stealthed and have it not break stealth and if I don’t have a target and a thief attacks me from stealth I want them to be auto targeted.

Wise.8025:

I would like to see an adjustment to the way Heartseeker works. The damage is fine, but the mechanics behind it are far too easily spammed for amazing results. Sure there needs to be something that allows new players to feels they have something powerful when playing a thief, but how about we get rid of the heatseeking super long range aspect of heartseeker.

I have several times blinked away from a heartseeker spamming thief only to have them fly to my location since they were in mid-air when I blinked allowing them to travel a range of 900 and still successfully hit me. Restrict the range it allows the thief to move, somebody dodge rolling away should successfully be out of range of a heartseeker spammer. The thief should then have to move into position again to continue their spamming.

I really like the stealth mechanics in mmo games, but it’s always the same issue in PvP. People feels it’s unfair that the class with the highest and fastest burst potential is able to remain out of sight. Now in GW2 it’s out of sight for an entire fight while still dealing damage. You may argue that thief doesn’t stay in stealth for a whole fight because it’s impossible, but when you see first hand a thief kill not 1 but 2 people before giving off that little black cloak flash to reappear you know something isn’t working as intended. It could be lag? Sure but if it’s lag and they just haven’t completely rendered on my screen why can I still not tab target them? I do not have a solution for fixing stealth other than to suggest that they not be able to use skills while stealthed and have it not break stealth and if I don’t have a target and a thief attacks me from stealth I want them to be auto targeted.

If you’re having problems whit HS spammers then the problem lies whit you.

Karolis.4261:

Leuca.5732:

Pretty much the only thing I would “nerf” on thieves is the stealth spam accessibility vs reward for stealthing vs punishment for bad stealth usage. For instance, how Cloak and Dagger rewards the thief with stealth and aoe blind (if traited) even if you are blocked…

CnD will not put you in stealth if it gets blocked.

This +1,000,000. Please people, I beg you, stop making suggestions when you have absolutely no idea how the mechanic works…

Wise.8025:

I have several times blinked away from a heartseeker spamming thief only to have them fly to my location since they were in mid-air when I blinked allowing them to travel a range of 900 and still successfully hit me.

While I agree the leap on heart seeker is a little excessive, it is not the only ability that reacts to a port like that…

Laika.8795:

Wise.8025:

I have several times blinked away from a heartseeker spamming thief only to have them fly to my location since they were in mid-air when I blinked allowing them to travel a range of 900 and still successfully hit me.

While I agree the leap on heart seeker is a little excessive, it is not the only ability that reacts to a port like that…

He blinked away and the thief has blown through all his initiative.He’ll be fine.
Its ridiculous to even sugest a nerf or ’’adjustment’’ to this skill considering HS is the only Gap Closer available to Dagger builds exept Steal.And neither can be abused like that and hope to win a fight.

I thought it was apparent when I said I was done with the thread, really. Someone told me that people are still responding, however. I suppose it’s not surprising, given how little of my posts were allowed to remain and how fewer yet were likely actually read by the people replying to me.

Guys, the escape thing I’m talking about is a combination of the way the current stealth mechanic works with the culling issues. Please actually do read my posts before you try to refute them. Again, for the Xth time, what I am saying is that if culling cannot be satisfactorily corrected, the stealth mechanic probably should be for the sake of satisfying the same ends. Make sense?

A few specific things because you people are so relentless:

Is it op? I wouldn’t say so. Neither you or him could kill each other, and that’s proof enough of the balance it gives.

If anything, it confirms that Thieves need more options to be able to hang around in a fight after this is resolved. The fact is that were it not for culling adding on to his apparent invisibility, he’d not have stood a chance. I’m not one of those people screaming, “Nerf Thieves”, despite what I’m sure most of you would like to believe.

And yes, as an aside, I’ve killed more than a few D/D Eles on my own. Most of them aren’t that skilled it seems. Also, I fought a P/P Thief the other night, who managed to remain invisible for 90% of the fight, despite the obvious lack of useful stealth abilities. I think we can agree that culling needs attention, but it’s important to note that this was only made possible because of how stealth actually interacts with it perfectly by virtue of complete invisibility.

You might wait a lot of time for satisfying patch notes. Anet wants thief to be a class with a lot of escapes.

Also, d/d ele complaining about thieves’ mobility. Hypocrism in its highest form. Nothing can catch an ele.

I get the feeling that, due to their acknowledgment of the culling problem, they did not intend for them to have escapes in this particular way. It’s one thing to outmaneuver your opponent – it is yet another to be given much longer invisibility than intended because of the way a mechanic works in tandem with an existing game flaw. One fix or another, the problems obviously should not co-exist.

Your comment on my Ele is irrelevant to Thief mechanics I described. However, it bears mentioning that an Ele can still be immobilized, repeatedly stunned, knocked down, etc. because targeting them is still an option.

Thief may not have had their stealth intended to be a perfect exit strategy (or other broken “strategy”), but again, repeating this because people still can’t seem to read, this is how it is able to function due to the culling issue. Again, in massive, bold text for those who can’t seem to understand what I’m saying:

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOUR MOBILITY IS SUPERIOR OR NOT IF THE ENEMY LITERALLY CANNOT SEE YOU OR DIRECTLY TARGET YOU AS THE RESULT OF CULLING INTERACTING WITH AN INVISIBILITY MECHANIC; YOU DO NOT NEED TO OUTRUN AN ENEMY THAT CANNOT BEGIN TO FOLLOW YOU

Now if you’re all done trying to refute an argument I’m not making, perhaps you can move on.

Sil.4560:

I thought it was apparent when I said I was done with the thread, really. Someone told me that people are still responding, however. I suppose it’s not surprising, given how little of my posts were allowed to remain and how fewer yet were likely actually read by the people replying to me.

Guys, the escape thing I’m talking about is a combination of the way the current stealth mechanic works with the culling issues. Please actually do read my posts before you try to refute them. Again, for the Xth time, what I am saying is that if culling cannot be satisfactorily corrected, the stealth mechanic probably should be for the sake of satisfying the same ends. Make sense?

A few specific things because you people are so relentless:

Is it op? I wouldn’t say so. Neither you or him could kill each other, and that’s proof enough of the balance it gives.

If anything, it confirms that Thieves need more options to be able to hang around in a fight after this is resolved. The fact is that were it not for culling adding on to his apparent invisibility, he’d not have stood a chance. I’m not one of those people screaming, “Nerf Thieves”, despite what I’m sure most of you would like to believe.

And yes, as an aside, I’ve killed more than a few D/D Eles on my own. Most of them aren’t that skilled it seems. Also, I fought a P/P Thief the other night, who managed to remain invisible for 90% of the fight, despite the obvious lack of useful stealth abilities. I think we can agree that culling needs attention, but it’s important to note that this was only made possible because of how stealth actually interacts with it perfectly by virtue of complete invisibility.

You might wait a lot of time for satisfying patch notes. Anet wants thief to be a class with a lot of escapes.

Also, d/d ele complaining about thieves’ mobility. Hypocrism in its highest form. Nothing can catch an ele.

I get the feeling that, due to their acknowledgment of the culling problem, they did not intend for them to have escapes in this particular way. It’s one thing to outmaneuver your opponent – it is yet another to be given much longer invisibility than intended because of the way a mechanic works in tandem with an existing game flaw. One fix or another, the problems obviously should not co-exist.

Your comment on my Ele is irrelevant to Thief mechanics I described. However, it bears mentioning that an Ele can still be immobilized, repeatedly stunned, knocked down, etc. because targeting them is still an option.

Thief may not have had their stealth intended to be a perfect exit strategy (or other broken “strategy”), but again, repeating this because people still can’t seem to read, this is how it is able to function due to the culling issue. Again, in massive, bold text for those who can’t seem to understand what I’m saying:

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOUR MOBILITY IS SUPERIOR OR NOT IF THE ENEMY LITERALLY CANNOT SEE YOU OR DIRECTLY TARGET YOU AS THE RESULT OF CULLING INTERACTING WITH AN INVISIBILITY MECHANIC; YOU DO NOT NEED TO OUTRUN AN ENEMY THAT CANNOT BEGIN TO FOLLOW YOU

Now if you’re all done trying to refute an argument I’m not making, perhaps you can move on.

Culling is extremely frustrating, but it only affects certain kinds of thieves, I admit though, I’ve fought a S/D Thief that abused Culling to the max, and could barely target him, but the problem was, he couldn’t really target or kill me, I play S/P, so I don’t have much stealth. (I don’t use stealth utility either.)

Culling also depends on the time and place as well, in SPVP, Culling doesn’t really affect me, in WvWvW, it depends on the area, and my game’s settings, I usually have to turn my rendering to max for wvwvw.

But a class shouldn’t be balanced around such things.

Honestly, when culling is fixed, I think this class will probably be weaker then ranger, which I’m starting to see a lot more of in pvp lately.

@Sil.4560

Putting a band-aid in for stealth from the culling will not solve anything because culling varies for different people. My guild and I RARELY have issues catching thieves that run away (D/D eles are harder though, but they are rarer).

Did I mention culling has varying mileage? Stealth is fine as it is. Leave it be. Wait for the fixes for culling, and don’t demand for a bandaid in the meantime because not everyone gets culling issues as you do… I know I don’t since it’s 1s max usually for me. That’s my argument against yours.

kenshinakh.3672:

@Sil.4560

Putting a band-aid in for stealth from the culling will not solve anything because culling varies for different people. My guild and I RARELY have issues catching thieves that run away (D/D eles are harder though, but they are rarer).

Did I mention culling has varying mileage? Stealth is fine as it is. Leave it be. Wait for the fixes for culling, and don’t demand for a bandaid in the meantime because not everyone gets culling issues as you do… I know I don’t since it’s 1s max usually for me. That’s my argument against yours.

Fighting against Black Gate, I don’t really see thieves, I see mostly D/D Elementalist and “Rangers” Truth be told.

To be honest, I’ve been seeing less and less thieves lately.

I’m not demanding a change right here and now, merely one to keep in mind for later assuming they can’t sufficiently fix the culling, since it’s a complex issue. We all know this stuff takes time.

I wish my culling were like 1s max…it usually seems to more than double stealth duration. I feel so cheated every time I’m presented with it because it feels as though I can’t properly fight my enemy due to something completely beyond my control.

Sil.4560:

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOUR MOBILITY IS SUPERIOR OR NOT IF THE ENEMY LITERALLY CANNOT SEE YOU OR DIRECTLY TARGET YOU AS THE RESULT OF CULLING INTERACTING WITH AN INVISIBILITY MECHANIC; YOU DO NOT NEED TO OUTRUN AN ENEMY THAT CANNOT BEGIN TO FOLLOW YOU

It matters a lot. I can track down and kill targets I can’t see. I can’t track down and kill targets I can’t catch. Culling doesn’t prevent damage any more than stealth does (actually less, since you can target a culled opponent).

Since the thread about thieves not being fun to fight was closed and the mod linked us to here, I’ll go ahead and toss in the main idea of that thread.

It’s not that thieves are OP, it’s just that they aren’t fun to fight against. That’s why people complain. Of course that’s not true for everybody, but I think it’s true to enough people that it generates a decent amount of dislike for thieves.

Sil.4560:

I’m not demanding a change right here and now, merely one to keep in mind for later assuming they can’t sufficiently fix the culling, since it’s a complex issue. We all know this stuff takes time.

I wish my culling were like 1s max…it usually seems to more than double stealth duration. I feel so cheated every time I’m presented with it because it feels as though I can’t properly fight my enemy due to something completely beyond my control.

I fought against a culling abuser on my thief, he was a P/D Stealther, and he would use the guy beside me to stealth over and over, after he died, it was a pretty good duel, I was mostly using Infiltrator’s Strike to cure the bleeds as soon as they placed on me, and heal myself up with SoM/Lifesteal by hitting him I knew where he is, since I healed when I hit him.

“This is rediculous!” I thought.

And then when I did beat him, he logged out…

But this is because culling is some times broken, not because thieves are overpowered, the fact was we could not kill eachother, every time he bled me, I cured it, and I found out where he was and slashed him to heal myself up.

Tulisin.6945:

It matters a lot. I can track down and kill targets I can’t see. I can’t track down and kill targets I can’t catch. Culling doesn’t prevent damage any more than stealth does (actually less, since you can target a culled opponent).

It really only takes one clever directional movement on behalf of the invisible player to avoid enough damage for the culling to take care of the rest as they run carefree off into the distance. They probably don’t even know they’re still invisible. I’ve damaged and downed a few in situations like this, but more often than not they’re just gone forever if it was their intent to escape. It really amounts to the same if you don’t get lucky and hit them immediately.

Daecollo.9578:

But this is because culling is some times broken, not because thieves are overpowered, the fact was we could not kill eachother, every time he bled me, I cured it, and I found out where he was and slashed him to heal myself up.

Totally agree. In a normal scenario, I definitely don’t think Thieves are overpowered. In fact, like I said, I wouldn’t mind them getting more options for playing style. The class is cool, but the game is still pretty young yet – most classes just need a little fine tuning.

Wise.8025:

I would like to see an adjustment to the way Heartseeker works. The damage is fine, but the mechanics behind it are far too easily spammed for amazing results. Sure there needs to be something that allows new players to feels they have something powerful when playing a thief, but how about we get rid of the heatseeking super long range aspect of heartseeker.

I have several times blinked away from a heartseeker spamming thief only to have them fly to my location since they were in mid-air when I blinked allowing them to travel a range of 900 and still successfully hit me. Restrict the range it allows the thief to move, somebody dodge rolling away should successfully be out of range of a heartseeker spammer. The thief should then have to move into position again to continue their spamming.

I really like the stealth mechanics in mmo games, but it’s always the same issue in PvP. People feels it’s unfair that the class with the highest and fastest burst potential is able to remain out of sight. Now in GW2 it’s out of sight for an entire fight while still dealing damage. You may argue that thief doesn’t stay in stealth for a whole fight because it’s impossible, but when you see first hand a thief kill not 1 but 2 people before giving off that little black cloak flash to reappear you know something isn’t working as intended. It could be lag? Sure but if it’s lag and they just haven’t completely rendered on my screen why can I still not tab target them? I do not have a solution for fixing stealth other than to suggest that they not be able to use skills while stealthed and have it not break stealth and if I don’t have a target and a thief attacks me from stealth I want them to be auto targeted.

No idea what am I doing wrong then, but I sucesfully land ~ 50 % of my heartseekers only to moving targets that do not evade. And I use it as gap closer, not as damaging skill. maybe i should push the button differently, maybe its the ammount of pressure applied to the button… ? dunno … No rly…

Finishing moves should be considered a stealth-breaking action. Meaning that as soon as a player clicks “Finish them!” and begins the progress bar, their stealth is removed.

Right now glass cannon builds can down any play in 2 – 3 seconds and have virtually gauranteed finish because they can’t be targeted during a finish with Shadow Sanctuary.

Caelib.2497:

Finishing moves should be considered a stealth-breaking action. Meaning that as soon as a player clicks “Finish them!” and begins the progress bar, their stealth is removed.

Right now glass cannon builds can down any play in 2 – 3 seconds and have virtually gauranteed finish because they can’t be targeted during a finish with Shadow Sanctuary.

Stealth does not lower damage or anything. So if you’re downed by a thief, your allies around you should immediately attack at your body. Glass cannon thieves die really easily to auto-attacks.

Caelib.2497:

Right now glass cannon builds can down any play in 2 – 3 seconds and have virtually gauranteed finish because they can’t be targeted during a finish with Shadow Sanctuary.

They’d finish you anyway, thanks to Signet of Shadows.

ASP.8093:

Caelib.2497:

Right now glass cannon builds can down any play in 2 – 3 seconds and have virtually gauranteed finish because they can’t be targeted during a finish with Shadow Sanctuary.

They’d finish you anyway, thanks to Signet of Shadows.

So what if they will finish you ? but afterwards GC thief will die from conditions, aoe , stray arrow/bullet or will hit a tree with his head while running and die. He has 12k hp for god sake… And btw stomping someone you downed in middle of zerg is easier on paper then it is in reality after they raised downed health %.

Karolis.4261:

So what if they will finish you ?

So what? I don’t know. That’s the user’s original complaint.

I’m just calling it out when y’all make mechanical suggestions that don’t actually have the gameplay effect you think they will.

Caelib.2497:

Finishing moves should be considered a stealth-breaking action. Meaning that as soon as a player clicks “Finish them!” and begins the progress bar, their stealth is removed.

Right now glass cannon builds can down any play in 2 – 3 seconds and have virtually gauranteed finish because they can’t be targeted during a finish with Shadow Sanctuary.

1. No other action or attack works this way.
2. As others noted, stealth finishers are the easiest modified finishers in the game to counter. If the thief is safely using them in anything but 1v1 it isn’t because stealth finishers are awesome, it is because your allies have no idea what to do when presented with them.

Remove stealth and put a cooldown on heartseeker.

Ant.3415:

Remove stealth and put a cooldown on heartseeker.

That’s a great suggestion if we were discussing how to make the thief class useless.

Bravo!

Why is the most mobile class also the class with the highest burst and best pvp defense (invisibility)?

Make invisibility break on taking damage or increase initiative cost on HS. As it is now, stealth has no counter except guess where the thief is and hope he/she dies in 1-2 hits.

Really? Are you kidding me? We have:
eles – best glass cannons + cc + survivability + escapes (unkillable)
guardians – best cc and survivabilty (unkillable)
warriors – best damage + cc + escapes + medium survivability
mesmers – very good BURST, incredible confusing abilities to just disappear from combat (almost unkillable if they want to)

Someone still complain about thieves. Guys, really, get some experience with every class before complain.

Laika.8795:

Karolis.4261:

Leuca.5732:

Pretty much the only thing I would “nerf” on thieves is the stealth spam accessibility vs reward for stealthing vs punishment for bad stealth usage. For instance, how Cloak and Dagger rewards the thief with stealth and aoe blind (if traited) even if you are blocked…

CnD will not put you in stealth if it gets blocked.

This +1,000,000. Please people, I beg you, stop making suggestions when you have absolutely no idea how the mechanic works…

There seems to be an occasional bug that is making this happen then; I had a thief stealth and blind me off of a blocked C&D the other day. It happened multiple times in the same encounter and if what you are saying is true then I’m not sure why.

I think someone else mentioned it earlier, but if body shot could have a blast finisher I would take P/P over my SB it’s a heartbeat. As it is, in dungeons I end up using #2 a lot to combo with the guardian, necro, and warrior I usually run with . This would also allow for some great support within the thief class with the ability to save a team with area stealth for a reasonable initiative cost.

Scorpion wire to be fixed please.

I would love to have this skill central to assassination – pull suitable target out to back row and perform murderous intent. Problem is that it works 50% of the time… not due to legitimate stuff like blocks and dodges, but because it just doesn’t work 50% of the time.

In testing in PvP last night I ended up throwing the wire out 60 times.

7 blocks (legit).
7 fails due to enemy state (I think stability is overriding the wire effect which is fine – legit).
4 dodges (legit).
9 obstructions that weren’t there. There was nothing there… (not legit).
11 inexplicable failures – wire goes out… hits guy with no special boons up… nothing happens.
6 partial successes. Either me and the target meet in the middle or we almost meet but he is not quite in melee range after the wire pull so I can’t hit him until I close a bit.
16 complete successes.

The failure rate is too high on the ‘unexplained’ front. Dodges blocks and stability are fair game… but from my testing there is a larrrrrrrge area of failures that have no discernible reason.

If this request gets lost I may have to start a thread on it.

I’d take the drastic step of reducing every stealth skills duration by half, see where the class lands at that point. That’s still enough stealth for thieves to utilize their utilities and abilities in but should help to reduce the " I’m never going to die because you can’t see me" that good thieves have turned into.

About the only things that can kill a decent thief in WvW :

1. He makes a mistake
2. Massive amounts of CC abilities ( Ring of Warding, Roots, Dazes )
3. Another thief in a burst spec

I’m all for letting them do their thing in PvE and Spvp, but in WvW they need to be slapped down a peg.

Smitten.3076:

I’d take the drastic step of reducing every stealth skills duration by half, see where the class lands at that point. That’s still enough stealth for thieves to utilize their utilities and abilities in but should help to reduce the " I’m never going to die because you can’t see me" that good thieves have turned into.

About the only things that can kill a decent thief in WvW :

1. He makes a mistake
2. Massive amounts of CC abilities ( Ring of Warding, Roots, Dazes )
3. Another thief in a burst spec

I’m all for letting them do their thing in PvE and Spvp, but in WvW they need to be slapped down a peg.

So 1.5 to 2.5 seconds of stealth and 5 seconds off SR. That’d nullify a few of our traits, not even the ones WvW GC thieves take. You should consider that culling doesn’t give thieves their stealth perks, and effects everyone differently. Also that extra invis it gives is additive, not a multiplication. Personally when I face thieves they cull pretty quickly. Like .5 seconds tops.

Dual.8953:

Smitten.3076:

I’d take the drastic step of reducing every stealth skills duration by half, see where the class lands at that point. That’s still enough stealth for thieves to utilize their utilities and abilities in but should help to reduce the " I’m never going to die because you can’t see me" that good thieves have turned into.

About the only things that can kill a decent thief in WvW :

1. He makes a mistake
2. Massive amounts of CC abilities ( Ring of Warding, Roots, Dazes )
3. Another thief in a burst spec

I’m all for letting them do their thing in PvE and Spvp, but in WvW they need to be slapped down a peg.

So 1.5 to 2.5 seconds of stealth and 5 seconds off SR. That’d nullify a few of our traits, not even the ones WvW GC thieves take. You should consider that culling doesn’t give thieves their stealth perks, and effects everyone differently. Also that extra invis it gives is additive, not a multiplication. Personally when I face thieves they cull pretty quickly. Like .5 seconds tops.

I’m not sure I really care how much it would break at this point, nor do I think it would break the class at all in WvW. Stealth is out of hand , any WvW worth his salt knows not to chase a Thief or a D/D Ele and there is a reason for that. Even in instances where culling isn’t an issue, the profession has to much stealth. Every other profession has had a broken mechanic gutted, stealth is long over do.

I quit playing my thief because there is simply no way to determine if its the profession/build that is strong or if I was a skilled player. It’s a walk you can only appreciate when you play a profession that doesn’t have the ability to disengage at will and survive countless mistakes.

( This is related to WvW , I’m not speaking on Spvp or PvE )

Delsabre.5934:

Why is the most mobile class also the class with the highest burst and best pvp defense (invisibility)?

Make invisibility break on taking damage or increase initiative cost on HS. As it is now, stealth has no counter except guess where the thief is and hope he/she dies in 1-2 hits.

Or immobolize them before they go invisible (I can not tell you how many times i have died because of getting immobilized for 4+ seconds). Get them inbetween their 3 second debuff in which they can not stealth if they used their invis skill. You can learn to daze/stun when they try to go invisible. Learn to read and fight them…. I find it is exactly like the GS warrior. Learn to dodge the Bull’s Rush, or continue dieing. Just because they are invisible doesn’t mean they are immune to everything.

Delsabre.5934:

Why is the most mobile class also the class with the highest burst and best pvp defense (invisibility)?

Make invisibility break on taking damage or increase initiative cost on HS. As it is now, stealth has no counter except guess where the thief is and hope he/she dies in 1-2 hits.

That would be Mesmer, Mesmers have much higher Burst DPS then thieves do, and clones and invisibility. (it just takes a little time to setup, not much though, but also, they do a lot more sustained damage then thieves do, besides just burst.)

Making Invisibility break on damage would also hurt mesmers a ton.

Stealth does have a counter, its called your mind.

The devs almost always make the same mistake with stealth classes in every game. First they confuse stealth with invisibility, combine that with high burst damage and top it off with no real ingame counters to stealth.

And yes, i read the official counter, conditions and aoe

Daecollo.9578:

That would be Mesmer, Mesmers have much higher Burst DPS then thieves do, and clones and invisibility. (it just takes a little time to setup, not much though, but also, they do a lot more sustained damage then thieves do, besides just burst.)

Mesmers don’t actually burst higher than thieves, during the pre-bug fix for shatter a mesmer using the exploit would hit at about 16k on a glass cannon (or a semi GC if some vulnerability had been added) which is quite close to what a BS chain can hit for against glass cannons as well. They do have higher sustained damage though, although in WvW situations much of it is negated/unreliable simply by large amounts of AoE going on and taking out clones and phantasms before they can hit.

Culling needs to be fixed soon, while seeing two zergs run into each other before realizing they’ve encountered an enemy can be very fun (and such beautiful chaos) it gets boring and the rendering after stealth gives professions with stealth an unfair advantage. I’d love for a GW1 approach and stealth to be removed completely from the game with thieves instead being about mobility (with more skills like Death Blossom – do damage and evade while looking snazzy) but that is probably too much of a change from what is already in the game to be a viable option. Less focus on stealth and more on mobility would be nice though.

Boomstin.3460:

The devs almost always make the same mistake with stealth classes in every game. First they confuse stealth with invisibility, combine that with high burst damage and top it off with no real ingame counters to stealth.

And yes, i read the official counter, conditions and aoe

I find a good counter is to fart in the general direction of the thief, that usually does enough damage to down them.

Fix culling and make shadow refuge force the thief to stay in it for the whole duration, none of this 5 seconds of prep for 15 seconds of free stealth anywhere.

just wondering when the thief is gonna be addressed in wvw. getting a little tired of getting wtfburstdown for 15k without even seeing the scrub. not only does culling need serious work, but burst need to be capped at a more reasonable number.

culling is just part of the problem. the third problem is the actual duration of stealth. i can be alone in wvw, with nothing around me for 2 miles. yet a thief will somehow manage to approach me unseen. stealth is plain broken.

it’s really unbecoming to let such a horribly broken playstyle reign for 5 months now.

Lord Yoshi.6738:

Fix culling and make shadow refuge force the thief to stay in it for the whole duration, none of this 5 seconds of prep for 15 seconds of free stealth anywhere.

I believe it’s closer to 4 seconds prep for 10 seconds of stealth (untraited).