Guild Wars 2

[Disclaimer]
I’m posting this thread here to get input not only from thieves but also from players of other professions and from different game types. Since the changes would affect pve/wvw and pvp it is in my opinion best to label it as “general”. I’d further like to point out that I play a thief myself. Also English is not my native tongue; Should you find grammatical errors, please do not hesitate to show me so I can edit my post.

Hello everybody,
I’d like to discuss some ideas for the thief in order to bring him in line with other professions while not weakening his position in sPvP and tPvP.
First let me say that I believe, the way the PvP team has chosen is a good one.
It is important to make small steps and not revamp big parts of a professions mechanics/traits
and abilities at once to prevent major imbalances.
For this reason I’d like to concentrate on one ability in particular:

Black powder:
Cost: 6 initiative
Duration: 4secs.
Activation: 1/2 sec

As you most likely know the possible weapon combinations are
(not counting p/d since my focus is BP) p/p d/p and s/p.

My suggestion is to change the ability “black powder” to a poison field instead of a
blinding field with a duration of 5 seconds (maybe more/less – open for discussion)
and a poison stack of 2 (maybe 3?) seconds/tick with one tick/second while costing 5 initiative
(possibly 4?)

Impact on weapon setups are as follows:

Pistol/Pistol:
Would benefit greatly from this change.
Aside from d/d cond. which in my opinion is subpar our only option for conditions is p/d.
The problem I see with this setup is the lack of actual conditions other than bleed.
Yes there is vulnerability for 3(!) seconds on #2 which will also receive an immobilize and 2 lousy stacks of torment on #3 which requires the thief to get in melee range.
Still the only really damaging condition is bleed and with the current condition removal in the game
this isn’t enough. #5 poison could change that.
Black powder shot would hit for one guaranteed stack of poison (the way BP works is as follows: the ability first lays down the combo field, then shoots a projectile with 100% combo finisher at the target) and could further be combo’ed with unload for an average of 1-2 additional applications (4-6 seconds, not counting additional duration through traits/runes and the actual poison field) per use.

I am aware of the fact that the defensive capabilities of this set are limited but also like to point out that one can use two weapon sets at all time and still gain access to stealth through traits, Hide in shadows and utility skills.

[Additional note] (in order to make p/p a real alternative for cond. users it could also include
the reduction of unloads direct damage with a 50% chance of bleed application per projectile (8 in total) or upping the projectile finisher chance from 20% to 40%.

Sword/Pistol:
Not really affected.
Used mainly for leveling the sole purpose is to facetank a horde of enemies unable to touch the thief while spamming pistol whip. The thief would not be untouchable anymore and actually has to think how to kill his enemies. Let’s not forget that the channeled part of pistol whip still has the attached evade plus cleave. The only difference would be that the user has to watch out while using the skills slashing part (still able to move). It should go without notice that the additional poison damage helps killing foes even faster.

Dagger/Pistol:
Greatly affected, for better or worse depending on point of view.
The ultimate troll; greatly overpowered in terms of WvW/roaming, not due to its damage output, which by all means is fine as is, but by its riskless access to long durations of stealth. Now I don’t view stealth as something bad but with this particular setup the risk is non existent while the reward is being invisible (!) and gaining access to the hardest hitting single strike ability in the game (while not being revealed for missing, but that’s another thread).

Currently there are two weapon sets that fulfill the same roll: d/p and d/d with
pistol offhand being the superior version. My proposed change to BP serves multiple purposes. Firstly d/d would become the assassination specc. again. Yes, thieves still have access to stealth but this time with a catch. For actual reward you have to take a risk. No more stealth stacking through leap finishers, which not only is in line with the initial design decision by Anet to make stealth a short duration buff to set up damage or escape but also eliminates said non existence of a risk.

D/P Impact on WvW gameplay:
Fighting thieves will cease to be a mixture of agony and frustration with the other part either being dead or left alone while the thief runs off stealthed. You want stealth? Fine, use utilities or get up close and personal to land a CnD with the other party being able to actual counter your intent.
At this point some people will usually argue that you also can counter the leap combo by standing in the Black Powder.
I ask you this: Is it fair that the other player has to chose between being hit with a heartseeker, (which in many cases hurts really badly or leads to downed state since it can be set up when both parties are at a low amount of health) twice(the first one will hit and stealth the thief but not reveal. Only should the thief spam HS it will connect a second time and reveal plus hit again) plus being blinded or letting the opponent stealth to either run off or hit with backstab.
That’s not counterplay, that is choosing how you want your damage delivered.

I also want to point out that it is still possible to CnD off structures so thieves can still infiltrate enemy territory and scout.

D/P Impact on PvE:
D/p needs a great deal of positioning and lacks cleave, thus is not often used in PvE. I’ve seen it used in dungeons to make the party immune-ish against groups of melee mobs. Being used as a blind-bot is not my idea of fun and kind of defeats the purpose of skilled play. (yes, even in PvE, plus good groups don’t need that anyway) Poison makes it possible to weaken the enemies which also dampens the damage by a tremendous amount while still requiring the party to not just stand in one spot and spam attacks. For further information on how to circumvent the loss of AoE blinds, please refer to the part further below.

D/P Impact on sPvP gameplay:
Due to its reliance on stealth and tiny maps, d/p is not often played in PvP (as far as I have seen).
Well, honestly I don’t think my suggestions could make it that much more valid but
it is a known fact that poison destroys anything reliant on healing.
33% doesn’t sound like much but it definitely makes a difference and with the current amount of warriors we have in PvP this setup can really help since they rely solely on passive healing.
With a spammable poison field (let’s not forget possible combos through whirls and projectiles of other players) warriors can be shut down pretty well.
I know that there is a poison field on SB #4 but why give up a great deal of flexibility (i.e. second weapon set). My solution would provide pros and cons for using pistol offhand instead of a short bow, thus leaving SB as a valid option:

Pro:
-One more weapon set to use
-daze on #4
-1 sec. longer duration
Con:
-Costs 1 initiative more than choking gas(or not? please refer to the first part of my post)
-Radius only half of choking gas (120 possibly; missing skill fact of BP) -> overall area covered only 1/4
-Not ranged
People who still want to use stealth are welcome to go back to d/d. With the much smaller maps there is absolutely no reason to not being able to hit a CnD.

Preserving the blind field:
For people who like to preserve the current d/p playstyle there is also a second smoke field available to the thief in terms of smoke screen which also provides excellent defensive means against melee through blind and ranged attack through projectile blocking. Its duration is 7 seconds with a cooldown of 30/24 seconds, so yes, not spammable. Yet again my proposition would promote thinking and actual skilled play. You can still HS-stealth but have to give up a utility slot for this option, the way it should have been from the start.

D/P Impact against other players in general:
With the double dagger setup taking back the assassin niche, d/p would become more of a dagger-acrobat duelist with many means of defense (while contrary to S/D still having valid options for stealth). The most obvious being the usage of HS to gain distance. The second being a spammable (!) daze. The third (not counting stealth) would be weakness. While destroying anything that has to heal itself through poison, the field can also be used to apply weakness to enemy. With the recent buff this condition received it is an excellent defense not only against melee but also ranged attacks. The HS leap finisher makes it really easy to apply due to its sheer range. The fourth is Shadow Shot #3 which blinds. Thieves actually have to use their blind carefully (while still being able to use it multiple times).

[Additional note] d/p would stay a direct damage set, the poison only serves as counter to healers and defensive weakness application

This leads to a greater diversity in thief speccs because it gives every weapon set a different means of defense:

S/D and SB: evade and teleport
D/D: stealth and HS-spamming
P/D: stealth and kiting through #2immob.plus possible caltrops cripple and distance through #3
S/P: teleport and evade on #3
D/P: HS-spamming and weakness (50% glancing on all attacks is a valid means of defense) plus blind on #3 to avoid strong attacks
P/P: immob. on #2 and daze to interrupt strong attacks

Let’s also not forget that every thief can choose the benefits of two of the listed sets
plus utilities and healing abilities (at least two of which serve as utilities through stealth and immob. breaking).

/discuss

Really? You moved it to the thief forums? I deliberately posted it in general discussions to get input from other classes as well… Main point of the rework was to make fighting thieves fun again while still maintaining their survivability.

Why do you even want to change it?
Asides from stealth stacking in WvW black powder is perfectly fine.

Paulo.8459:

Why do you even want to change it?
Asides from stealth stacking in WvW black powder is perfectly fine.

Please read my post; there are multiple reasons.
Amongst others making p/p a viable cond set, diversifying specc. defense mechanics,
preventing d/p from taking the same niche as d/d thus leaving it useless and helping thieves gain access to the much needed poison without shortbow in order to counter
classes that rely on steady but low healing.

a t s e.9614:

Wow ….. just wow QQ about a worthless class in PvP used only for troll purposes . What about removing healing signet and the hammer from the warrior ? .

The same goes for you: read first, then post.
I play a thief myself, this is not qq, just a proposal and i don’t want anything changed, i want input from other players telling me where they agree/disagree. Also a posion without weapon swap would immensely help against warrior heal. It can be considered a buff against this particular playstyle.

i dont like it. it would not have enough impact and takes one of the best defensive abilities the thief has away.

if you want p/p to become a more viable condition set, then start with reworking unload.

something like reducing the damage and make each hit apply a different condition.
1st hit: immobilize 0.5 seconds
2nd hit: vulnerability 3 seconds
3rd hit: chilled 2 seconds
4th hit: bleed 3 seconds
5th hit: poison 3 seconds
6th hit: torment 3 seconds
7th hit: burning 2 seconds
8th hit: confusion 2 seconds

And then give us a rifle to deal single target physical damage.

I still see no reason to change it.
As i said, it is fine as it is, besides from stealth stacking in WvW.

The skill is not too strong and not too weak. It’s a defensive skill meant as a little counter to melee classes.

For condition builds, i see enough poison on thiefs. With 30 in trickery (+300 condidmg btw.) steal is on a ~21sec cooldown. 10 points in deadly arts for mug also includes a 11 second poison with steal. Thats already 50% uptime.
Spider venom adds a very, very long poison. Venoms are not so good right now, so i think it would make more sence to change/buff venoms to gain more acces to poison and conditions in general.
And as you already said, shortbow offers another poison field, wich would be:
1. cheaper than your black powder proposal
2. by far longer poison duration
3. 900 range aoe
4. larger poison field

To me its quite pointless to change it into another poison field, although i really like the idea of D/P using weakness to mitigate damage and prevent the enemy from dodging.

The S/P set would also be much weaker than it is now. Many people already think the set is weaker than the other ones (personally i think it’s fine). The blind field is very useful for stomping, since S/P doesn’t have access to stealth i think this is a very good alternative for saver stomping.

i don’t play D/P but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that making the smoke field into a poison field is a huge nerf. considering that smoke field is the best field for thief…

poison is bugged anyways, it only works half the time.

crouze.3078:

i dont like it. it would not have enough impact and takes one of the best defensive abilities the thief has away.

if you want p/p to become a more viable condition set, then start with reworking unload.

something like reducing the damage and make each hit apply a different condition.
1st hit: immobilize 0.5 seconds
2nd hit: vulnerability 3 seconds
3rd hit: chilled 2 seconds
4th hit: bleed 3 seconds
5th hit: poison 3 seconds
6th hit: torment 3 seconds
7th hit: burning 2 seconds
8th hit: confusion 2 seconds

And then give us a rifle to deal single target physical damage.

Hm point taken.
However as i said there are multiple goals, which can all be achieved by changing just one thing. I do agree that a blind field is a strong defensive mechanic but not on a spammable weapon ability. The HS combo is easily abused in WvW and brings great rewards for little to no risk. As i said, stealth is fine, but make access to it something the player has to put actual effort into. D/d is still useless; it would get more significance with this rework.

Also posion eliminates the need for a shortbow against healing heavy classes, leaving thieves with much more flexibility in terms of another weaponset, which again, can be used for its unique defensive (and offensive) means.

Your UL rework doesn’t even sound good on paper since it just promotes skill spamming with every condition applied for a very short duration. With poison (and possibly bleed on UL) on BP you know what you get instead of a mashup of 8 different conditions which is equal to rng cond. on hit – doensn’t promote planning ahead and thoughtful use of skills imho as neither you nor the enemie (UL is longer than 1dodge) knows what conditions end up being applied.

Excalibur.9748:

i don’t play D/P but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that making the smoke field into a poison field is a huge nerf. considering that smoke field is the best field for thief…

poison is bugged anyways, it only works half the time.

Read the whole thing, then post again please.

crouze.3078:

i dont like it. it would not have enough impact and takes one of the best defensive abilities the thief has away.

if you want p/p to become a more viable condition set, then start with reworking unload.

something like reducing the damage and make each hit apply a different condition.
1st hit: immobilize 0.5 seconds
2nd hit: vulnerability 3 seconds
3rd hit: chilled 2 seconds
4th hit: bleed 3 seconds
5th hit: poison 3 seconds
6th hit: torment 3 seconds
7th hit: burning 2 seconds
8th hit: confusion 2 seconds

And then give us a rifle to deal single target physical damage.

I really like that kind of change to unload. I’d propose increasing the condition duration of the conditions with each shot.
Something like…
1st shot: cripple for 1 second
2nd shot: 1 stack bleeding for 2 seconds
3rd shot: poison for 1 second
4th shot: burning for 1 second
5th shot: cripple for 3 seconds
6th shot: 3 stacks bleeding for 3 seconds
7th shot: poison for 3 seconds
8th shot: burning for 2 seconds

Of course this is not meant to be balanced, it’s just to show the idea behind it.
Unload would be the condition/utility “burst” of P/P with high initiative cost. The first 4 shots are weak and the last 4 shots should be dodged. (→ involves couterplay, since everyone is crying for a counter for everything in the game)
Has nobody already suggested this? I read the forums a lot and have never seen this.

i allready gave some ideas that would help against the BS + HS combo.

Like Infusion of Shadow.

You unfortunately have no idea what you are suggesting. Please learn how the thief class works and then come back (or even better, don’t come back).

More modest solutions to heartseeker spam have already been suggested by the thief community and you could read them and learn.

Paulo.8459:

I still see no reason to change it.
As i said, it is fine as it is, besides from stealth stacking in WvW.

The skill is not too strong and not too weak. It’s a defensive skill meant as a little counter to melee classes.

For condition builds, i see enough poison on thiefs. With 30 in trickery (+300 condidmg btw.) steal is on a ~21sec cooldown. 10 points in deadly arts for mug also includes a 11 second poison with steal. Thats already 50% uptime.
Spider venom adds a very, very long poison. Venoms are not so good right now, so i think it would make more sence to change/buff venoms to gain more acces to poison and conditions in general.
And as you already said, shortbow offers another poison field, wich would be:
1. cheaper than your black powder proposal
2. by far longer poison duration
3. 900 range aoe
4. larger poison field

To me its quite pointless to change it into another poison field, although i really like the idea of D/P using weakness to mitigate damage and prevent the enemy from dodging.

The S/P set would also be much weaker than it is now. Many people already think the set is weaker than the other ones (personally i think it’s fine). The blind field is very useful for stomping, since S/P doesn’t have access to stealth i think this is a very good alternative for saver stomping.

While i do agree that thieves have several possible ways of applying poison they are all on a long cooldown. As you said poisons are extremely underpowered and even with 10/x/x/x/30 (maybe my knowledge is dated in that regard but i don’t know any build that works with this point distribution – mostly 0/0/30/20/20 or 20/0/30/20/0)

Also the current cond removal in the game is quite high; while 50% uptime sounds fine on paper it will just be cleansed after a few seconds and has quite a long cooldown (even with 30 trickery -> 40 points wasted for an easily countered gimmick)
My proposed changes could make poison an easy to apply condition, that, despite
frequent cleanses, can do what it’s supposed to without being too strong because it stacks in duration, not intensity.

Stooperdale.3560:

You unfortunately have no idea what you are suggesting. Please learn how the thief class works and then come back (or even better, don’t come back).

More modest solutions to heartseeker spam have already been suggested by the thief community and you could read them and learn.

What exactly do you disagree with? Where does it supposedly show that i have no idea
about the class? What do i need to learn to fully understand thief class mechanics?

Please elaborate and not just throw insults in my direction.

Edit: Also please read the whole thing. I wanted to adress several issues with my suggestion, HS spam was only a small part.

Crovax.7854:

While i do agree that thieves have several possible ways of applying poison they are all on a long cooldown. As you said poisons are extremely underpowered and even with 10/x/x/x/30 (maybe my knowledge is dated in that regard but i don’t know any build that works with this point distribution – mostly 0/0/30/20/20 or 20/0/30/20/0)

Also the current cond removal in the game is quite high; while 50% uptime sounds fine on paper it will just be cleansed after a few seconds and has a quit long cooldown (even with 30 trickery -> 40 points wasted for an easily countered gimmick)
My proposed changes could make poison an easy to apply condition, that, despite
frequent cleanses, can do what it’s supposed to without being too strong because it stacks in duration, not intensity.

You’re right concerning few different ways of reapplying poison, thats why i think that a change to venoms would improve condition builds in a better way, since it’s a utility skill and usable for every other set, e.g. D/D.

I tried a 10/x/x/x/30 build for a while. Relies less on stealth, has high condition damage, low steal cooldown, decent healing (and a little damage) through mug, as well as the poison on steal and 10% condition duration.
I added 20 in acrobatics for dodging/mobility and condition removal through pain response.
I don’t like to rely on stealth completely. I’m just testing this, and while probably being inferior to 30 in shadow arts i think it has potential, mainly with D/D offhand.

Edit: of course you can add 30 in shadow arts to the build, but like i said, im trying to find alternatives to stealth.

I’d consider d/p condition highly unconventional and subpar in comparison to
p/d, even with the gimmicky access to poison. Sure, you can play how you want but that doesn’t make it any more valid.

So… who is talking about a D/P condition build?

Paulo.8459:

I tried a 10/x/x/x/30 build for a while. Relies less on stealth, has high condition damage, low steal cooldown, decent healing (and a little damage) through mug, as well as the poison on steal and 10% condition duration.
I added 20 in acrobatics for dodging/mobility and condition removal through pain response.
I don’t like to rely on stealth completely. I’m just testing this, and while probably being inferior to 30 in shadow arts i think it has potential, mainly with D/D offhand.

Edit: of course you can add 30 in shadow arts to the build, but like i said, im trying to find alternatives to stealth.

You were talking about d/d offset: My assumption was that your mainhand must be something with pistol offhand since it wouldn’t be relevant to the topic otherwise and good/reliant access to stealth since you stated that you don’t want to completely rely on it, that rules s/p and p/p out, leaving d/p.

IIRC crovax main warrior, and he has an alt thief using troll spec P/D so not only this nerf not impact him, it would buff his OP warrior even more considering blind spam is an okay counter to warrior.

No, not really. My point was that other weaponsets would benefit from a venom change too.
Instead of pointlessly changing black powder, spider venom could be made more useful.
P/D main, D/D offset.

Excalibur.9748:

IIRC crovax main warrior, and he has an alt thief using troll spec P/D so not only this nerf not impact him, it would buff his OP warrior even more considering blind spam is an okay counter to warrior.

Main warrior in pve and wvw since release (no bandwagon), main thief in spvp since release using s/d s/p d/p (it is, hands down, better than d/d) and, yes, p/d. I’d love to see p/p as a viable alternative to p/d or at least as a viable offset, while also reducing the trolling and skillless/riskless play from d/p. Please read my OP first, stealth is fine, but make reward=risk. Usage of cnd to gain stealth doesn’t nerf the thief, it just requires actual thinking.

Also this thread isn’t about warriors but since you seem to insist: you already have a blind in terms of #3. Yes you couldn’t spam blinds anymore but i guess we all agree that spamming requires no thought at all, leading to easy to use, yet very strong classes, like the d/p in certain situations is.
So, while maintaining a blind without cd, you also have an easy to reapply poison.
That counters not only the warriors healing, but also his ability to cleanse conditions while keeping him infight, making resetting easier.

Please explain how that buffs warriors.

Also i could go ahead and do another compilation of all the stupid things you have said in the course of past months but i guess everyone who frequents the forums knows what kind of a clown you are.

Crovax.7854:

Excalibur.9748:

IIRC crovax main warrior, and he has an alt thief using troll spec P/D so not only this nerf not impact him, it would buff his OP warrior even more considering blind spam is an okay counter to warrior.

Main warrior in pve and wvw since release (no bandwagon), main thief in spvp since release using s/d s/p d/p (it is, hands down, better than d/d) and, yes, p/d. I’d love to see p/p as a viable alternative to p/d or at least as a viable offset, while also reducing the trolling and skillless/riskless play from d/p. Please read my OP first, stealth is fine, but make reward=risk. Usage of cnd to gain stealth doesn’t nerf the thief, it just requires actual thinking.

Also this thread isn’t about warriors but since you seem to insist: you already have a blind in terms of #3. Yes you couldn’t spam blinds anymore but i guess we all agree that spamming requires no thought at all, leading to easy to use, yet very strong classes, like the d/p in certain situations is.
So, while maintaining a blind without cd, you also have an easy to reapply poison.
That counters not only the warriors healing, but also his ability to cleanse conditions while keeping him infight, making resetting easier.

Please explain how that buffs warriors.

Also i could go ahead and do another compilation of all the stupid things you have said in the course of past months but i guess everyone who frequents the forums knows what kind of a clown you are.

I suggest you stop making ANY type of suggestions for thief period you have absolutely no understanding of the magnitude of this nerf for the thief in PvE/WvW since you don’t play a thief there.

You can cherry pick the few posts where I made a fool out of myself, what about the 95% of times I’m right? Oh besides, I’ve never pretended to play a warrior and try to get some suggestions in for the warrior which are blatant nerfs disguised as some kind of fix.

“What exactly do you disagree with? Where does it supposedly show that i have no idea
about the class? What do i need to learn to fully understand thief class mechanics?”

If you only use sword/pistol for pistol whip and only use dagger/pistol for heartseeker than you are severely underplaying your thief. The smoke field as an area blind for melee opponents is core to PvE melee for the x/pistol builds. Blind is the staple defense for thieves since we are without boon based defense. You are discarding that for a largely worthless poison field that would be used less than the existing body shot.

Stooperdale.3560:

“What exactly do you disagree with? Where does it supposedly show that i have no idea
about the class? What do i need to learn to fully understand thief class mechanics?”

If you only use sword/pistol for pistol whip and only use dagger/pistol for heartseeker than you are severely underplaying your thief. The smoke field as an area blind for melee opponents is core to PvE melee for the x/pistol builds. Blind is the staple defense for thieves since we are without boon based defense. You are discarding that for a largely worthless poison field that would be used less than the existing body shot.

Please read the whole OP; everything you have said is adressed there. Then post again.

Excalibur.9748:

Crovax.7854:

Excalibur.9748:

IIRC crovax main warrior, and he has an alt thief using troll spec P/D so not only this nerf not impact him, it would buff his OP warrior even more considering blind spam is an okay counter to warrior.

Main warrior in pve and wvw since release (no bandwagon), main thief in spvp since release using s/d s/p d/p (it is, hands down, better than d/d) and, yes, p/d. I’d love to see p/p as a viable alternative to p/d or at least as a viable offset, while also reducing the trolling and skillless/riskless play from d/p. Please read my OP first, stealth is fine, but make reward=risk. Usage of cnd to gain stealth doesn’t nerf the thief, it just requires actual thinking.

Also this thread isn’t about warriors but since you seem to insist: you already have a blind in terms of #3. Yes you couldn’t spam blinds anymore but i guess we all agree that spamming requires no thought at all, leading to easy to use, yet very strong classes, like the d/p in certain situations is.
So, while maintaining a blind without cd, you also have an easy to reapply poison.
That counters not only the warriors healing, but also his ability to cleanse conditions while keeping him infight, making resetting easier.

Please explain how that buffs warriors.

Also i could go ahead and do another compilation of all the stupid things you have said in the course of past months but i guess everyone who frequents the forums knows what kind of a clown you are.

I suggest you stop making ANY type of suggestions for thief period you have absolutely no understanding of the magnitude of this nerf for the thief in PvE/WvW since you don’t play a thief there.

You can cherry pick the few posts where I made a fool out of myself, what about the 95% of times I’m right? Oh besides, I’ve never pretended to play a warrior and try to get some suggestions in for the warrior which are blatant nerfs disguised as some kind of fix.

Lear to read; i made a proposition and wanted feedback from the community.
Also no, 50% of the time making a fool out of yourself would be more adequate,
including this time, since you have shown that you didn’t read my initial post, plus you also said that you don’t play d/p.
Playing warrior as a main in wvw, doesn’t mean i don’t play enough thief to know when a mechanic that allows the player to gain stealth independently from his enemy, is not balanced well.

Paulo.8459:

No, not really. My point was that other weaponsets would benefit from a venom change too.
Instead of pointlessly changing black powder, spider venom could be made more useful.
P/D main, D/D offset.

BP changes would benefit d/d p/p and also anything that doesn’t want to give up
a second weapon set for a poison field. Cluster bomb is good for aoe and infil. arrow is excellent mobility but i’d gladly give that up for, say, p/p-p/d. There i’d have stealth and a good amount of conditions, a daze and weakness, which limits the dodging my opponent can do and the overall damage by ~25%.

Also no, 50% of the time making a fool out of yourself would be more adequate,
including this time, since you have shown that you didn’t read my initial post, plus you also said that you don’t play d/p.

Nah looks like you’re the one who made a fool of himself here, suggesting this outrageous nerf with no compensation. Won’t go over well, I suggest you stop now.

Playing warrior as a main in wvw, doesn’t mean i don’t play enough thief to know when a mechanic that allows the player to gain stealth independently from his enemy, is not balanced well.

I also think #5 → #2 is not balanced well but I also know better to suggest a nerf of this magnitude. There are way more reasonable suggestions like other actual thieves have made.

Excalibur.9748:

Nah looks like you’re the one who made a fool of himself here, suggesting this outrageous nerf with no compensation. Won’t go over well, I suggest you stop now.

I also think #5 -> #2 is not balanced well but I also know better to suggest a nerf of this magnitude. There are way more reasonable suggestions like other actual thieves have made.

Yet again you have proven to possess absolutely no reading comprehensibility,
I didn’t suggest a nerf, i had an idea and wanted to hear other peoples opinions about it.If you don’t agree, please explain yourself, the others are capeable of this, why not you?

As i said, the compensation is as follows: d/d fills the gap that would be left by d/p loosing stealth, thus making it finally viable again. My point is not that stealth stacking is bad (which it is) but rather the ability to stealth without risk.

d/p gains access to poison and easy to apply 8second weakness (8sec base for leap finisher through poison field, 3sec for blast iirc) This limits the opponents defense and offense. Build diversity would be greater, given that every weapon set has its own means of defense, but you would have known all that, had you actually read what i wrote.

As i said, the compensation is as follows: d/d fills the gap that would be left by d/p loosing stealth, thus making it finally viable again. My point is not that stealth stacking is bad (which it is) but rather the ability to stealth without risk.

That’s not compensation, that’s just a straight nerf considering D/D is pitiful these days.

d/p gains access to poison and easy to apply 8second weakness (8sec base for leap finisher through poison field, 3sec for blast iirc) This limits the opponents defense and offense. Build diversity would be greater, given that every weapon set has its own meanse of defense, but you would have known all that, had you actually read what i wrote.

Poison field is worthless, especially for main hand dagger thieves. There I said it. We do not want poison, we want blind. We want stealth.

Really, quit while you’re ahead.

Excalibur.9748:

As i said, the compensation is as follows: d/d fills the gap that would be left by d/p loosing stealth, thus making it finally viable again. My point is not that stealth stacking is bad (which it is) but rather the ability to stealth without risk.

That’s not compensation, that’s just a straight nerf considering D/D is pitiful these days.

d/p gains access to poison and easy to apply 8second weakness (8sec base for leap finisher through poison field, 3sec for blast iirc) This limits the opponents defense and offense. Build diversity would be greater, given that every weapon set has its own meanse of defense, but you would have known all that, had you actually read what i wrote.

Poison field is worthless, especially for main hand dagger thieves. There I said it. We do not want poison, we want blind. We want stealth.

Really, quit while you’re ahead.

How is d/d bad? Do you mean to tell me you don’t want to trade one layer of defense (daze) for another (stealth)? oh no! the horror! Given that you still have a blind plus gapcloser on #3 i see no reason to qq. D/d still has blinds through blind on stealth and dagger #5, which would be this setups defense. D/p has spammable dazes and weakness as defense. Sorry i can’t see the problem.

You want blind? You want stealth?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Screen
There you go. What did you say? You can’t spam it anymore? You have to actually think before using an ability? Yeah i guess for some thieves that thought is quite terrifying.

You want blind? You want stealth?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Screen

Lol at listing this PvE-only skill used to reflect projectiles. Nice going.

There you go. What did you say? You can’t spam it anymore? You have to actually think before using an ability? Yeah i guess for some thieves that thought is quite terrifying.

Funny considering I hardly use stealth or black powder at all. It’s not my style. I don’t spam anything except for dancing dangers which no other thieves use but idc.

Excalibur.9748:

You want blind? You want stealth?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Screen

Lol at listing this PvE-only skill used to reflect projectiles. Nice going.

There you go. What did you say? You can’t spam it anymore? You have to actually think before using an ability? Yeah i guess for some thieves that thought is quite terrifying.

Funny considering I hardly use stealth or black powder at all. It’s not my style. I don’t spam anything except for dancing dangers which no other thieves use but idc.

You do realize that smokescreen has the same effect as blinding powder with an additional projectile block (not reflect!) and +75% duration?
This again shows that you didn’t even took the time to read (and understand) my initial post. If you can’t show me some basic respect by at least trying to understand what i’m saying, why should i even answer your posts?

All i want is for people to fully understand my thoughts behind the change and give constructive feedback i.e. agreeing/disagreeing with explanation.

Crovax.7854:

Excalibur.9748:

You want blind? You want stealth?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Screen

Lol at listing this PvE-only skill used to reflect projectiles. Nice going.

There you go. What did you say? You can’t spam it anymore? You have to actually think before using an ability? Yeah i guess for some thieves that thought is quite terrifying.

Funny considering I hardly use stealth or black powder at all. It’s not my style. I don’t spam anything except for dancing dangers which no other thieves use but idc.

You do realize that smokescreen has the same effect as blinding powder with an additional projectile block (not reflect!) and +75% duration?

Yes but that’s not what it’s carried for. It’s unique for being able to block projectiles. (wow even weaker than I remember, it should be reflect) No one would waste a slot just for the blind considering how easy thieves have access to blind.

The skill shuts down melee damage through blind, ranged damage through
block both even against multiple sources (!) and can be used to stealth. It just isn’t used because of BP. It would see much more use with BP as poison. Want to stealth for a long duration without risk? Use smoke screen. Advantages over SR: While using SR it is ease to be pulled/pushed out of the safe zone. Try that while being blinded and your projectiles being blocked. Also blast finishers stealth allies and friendly players can use the field to blind opponents through whirls and projectiles.

All that while being useful in dungeon pve to shut down mobs hard and solo pve with a cd instead of initiative cost.
As i said, easy access to stealth without risk should definitely have its price.

I honestly can’t understand how people can support the skillless and thoughtless playstyle that d/p promotes.

As i said, easy access to stealth without risk should definitely have its price.

I would agree with you if thief has 19k base hp and heavy armor and healing signet. Then again, it doesn’t and easy access to blind + stealth “without risk” ARE its defensive mechanisms.

Excalibur.9748:

As i said, easy access to stealth without risk should definitely have its price.

I would agree with you if thief has 19k base hp and heavy armor and healing signet. Then again, it doesn’t and easy access to blind + stealth ARE “without risk” are its defensive mechanisms.

Which you have on many supportive skills with a cooldown but it should not be accessible through spammable weapon skills.

Crovax.7854:

Excalibur.9748:

As i said, easy access to stealth without risk should definitely have its price.

I would agree with you if thief has 19k base hp and heavy armor and healing signet. Then again, it doesn’t and easy access to blind + stealth ARE “without risk” are its defensive mechanisms.

Which you have on many supportive skills with a cooldown but it should not be accessible through spammable weapon skills.

Cooldowns won’t cut it. They need to be readily spammable.

Excalibur.9748:

Crovax.7854:

Excalibur.9748:

As i said, easy access to stealth without risk should definitely have its price.

I would agree with you if thief has 19k base hp and heavy armor and healing signet. Then again, it doesn’t and easy access to blind + stealth ARE “without risk” are its defensive mechanisms.

Which you have on many supportive skills with a cooldown but it should not be accessible through spammable weapon skills.

Cooldowns won’t cut it. They need to be readily spammable.

I guess my english isn’t good enough. What does “readily spammable” mean?

Crovax.7854:

Excalibur.9748:

Crovax.7854:

Excalibur.9748:

As i said, easy access to stealth without risk should definitely have its price.

I would agree with you if thief has 19k base hp and heavy armor and healing signet. Then again, it doesn’t and easy access to blind + stealth ARE “without risk” are its defensive mechanisms.

Which you have on many supportive skills with a cooldown but it should not be accessible through spammable weapon skills.

Cooldowns won’t cut it. They need to be readily spammable.

I guess my english isn’t good enough. What does “readily spammable” mean?

Means use on demand as long as you have the initiative for it.

So instead of managing your defensive cooldowns, which would promote planning in advance, understanding the opponents class and keep life saving abilities for when you need them, you want to be able to spam everything and get away with it?

I’d also like to point out that this change goes much deeper then just d/p-HS
as is commented on in the original post.
-d/d viable again
-p/p viable
-s/d still has an evade for the channel #3
-d/p gains another form of damage mitigation instead of serving the same purpose as d/d

Crovax.7854:

So instead of managing your defensive cooldowns, which would promote planning in advance, understanding the opponents class and keep life saving abilities for when you need them, you want to be able to spam everything and get away with it?

I don’t spam them like I said, but it should be an option considering inherent thief weaknesses.

Planning in advance….hmm looks like I don’t do any type of planning while I’m on my warrior, why should I have to do that on my thief? Even signet build works and your heal even works without activating it.

Spamming should not be an option. If you want to be efficient with your class, then it should be neccessary to learn the mechanics and be genuinely good at it.
Contrary to the thief, the warrior only has one working build for pvp which is hammer/lb. Another problem is visibility, warrior skills are all very telegraphed and easily avoided, a stealthed thief can not be avoided.
Also this is a topic about thieves, not warriors.
If you have suggestions, go ahead and post them in the warrior forums, see what they have to say about it.

Contrary to the thief, the warrior only has one working build for pvp which is hammer/lb. Also this is a topic about thieves, not warriors.

Just like the thief only has 1 viable build which is S/D and it’s already nerfed? Warrior has the most build diversity right now actually.

If you have suggestions, go ahead and post them in the warrior forums, see what they have to say about it.

No thanks, it’s a waste of time.

Spamming should not be an option. If you want to be efficient with your class, then it should be neccessary to learn the mechanics and be genuinely good at it.

Agree with the principle, but not the execution of your ideas.

Disagree with the OP. I doubt anyone would play D/P with those changes. You’d just see more D/D.

Also, poison doesn’t fit well with a P/P spec. That’s a power spec. Adding conditions doesn’t really help much.

I agree with Excalibur – please close thread.

style.6173:

Disagree with the OP. I doubt anyone would play D/P with those changes. You’d just see more D/D.

Also, poison doesn’t fit well with a P/P spec. That’s a power spec. Adding conditions doesn’t really help much.

What gives you the idea that p/p is a power specc?
Was it the weak auto attack with bleed on it?

Sifu.6527:

I agree with Excalibur – please close thread.

Sifu.6527:

kitten s.7421:

For all those struggling with this concept.

I totally understand the concept and I wish the game’s risks vs rewards match that of the graph. It is sad that the risk vs reward in game is no where close to what you posted.

Example: Mesmer’s GS. You do more damage the further you are away. This encourage taking less risk for higher reward. And don’t get me started with Izerker, a 1200 range 4-6K damage. Blurred Frenzy – mini 100B but without the risk. I’m not calling for nerfs – I’m just using this as an example.

It seems like they have bigger problems to deal with and I highly doubt they will ever get to balance this.

Taken from another thread. What makes you think that the examples you posted are bad risk/reward, yet stealth on demand without the need to pay attention to cooldowns and other defense mechanisms isn’t.

“Spamming should not be an option. If you want to be efficient with your class, then it should be neccessary to learn the mechanics and be genuinely good at it.”

Someone linked an article the other day by David Sirlin and, although I disagreed with the attitude, one part of the article is important here. If there is a core mechanic that is strong then use it. It doesn’t have to flashy, skilful, or complex. I’m not sure why you want to stop thieves using basic skills for simple and effective defense and force them to dodge every second. Other classes have equally simple mechanics that they use to flatten the trash mobs or can flatten trash mobs with no skills whatsoever. Also, unlike the thief, those classes can flatten boss mobs in the same way!

Stooperdale.3560:

“Spamming should not be an option. If you want to be efficient with your class, then it should be neccessary to learn the mechanics and be genuinely good at it.”

Someone linked an article the other day by David Sirlin and, although I disagreed with the attitude, one part of the article is important here. If there is a core mechanic that is strong then use it. It doesn’t have to flashy, skilful, or complex. I’m not sure why you want to stop thieves using basic skills for simple and effective defense and force them to dodge every second. Other classes have equally simple mechanics that they use to flatten the trash mobs or can flatten trash mobs with no skills whatsoever. Also, unlike the thief, those classes can flatten boss mobs in the same way!

The “why” is explained in detail in the original posts. Please refer to them. I don’t want to quote myself for the xth time because nobody here seems to take the time to actually read the whole thing before posting.

Crovax.7854:

style.6173:

Disagree with the OP. I doubt anyone would play D/P with those changes. You’d just see more D/D.

Also, poison doesn’t fit well with a P/P spec. That’s a power spec. Adding conditions doesn’t really help much.

What gives you the idea that p/p is a power specc?
Was it the weak auto attack with bleed on it?

Sifu.6527:

I agree with Excalibur – please close thread.

Sifu.6527:

kitten s.7421:

For all those struggling with this concept.

I totally understand the concept and I wish the game’s risks vs rewards match that of the graph. It is sad that the risk vs reward in game is no where close to what you posted.

Example: Mesmer’s GS. You do more damage the further you are away. This encourage taking less risk for higher reward. And don’t get me started with Izerker, a 1200 range 4-6K damage. Blurred Frenzy – mini 100B but without the risk. I’m not calling for nerfs – I’m just using this as an example.

It seems like they have bigger problems to deal with and I highly doubt they will ever get to balance this.

Taken from another thread. What makes you think that the examples you posted are bad risk/reward, yet stealth on demand without the need to pay attention to cooldowns and other defense mechanisms isn’t.

I never said D/P was balanced. Even Evil said it isn’t balanced which I agree with him. We just both think you’re idea suck kitten and you should stop talking.

Good change, it would render S/P 100% useless, nobody would ever bother using D/P at this point, it would also damage the thief MASSIVELY in PvE and remove the only “viable” source of defence P/P has access to.

Also if pistol weren’t meant to do physical damage, why does unload and the +10% pistol damage trait even exist to begin with? Not that i don’t agree this set would be better off being 100% support/condi based but it’s obviously still not what anet wants it to be atm.

if you have a problem with D/P and perma stealth (especially in wvw) then next time make a thread about changing infusion of shadow, i might actually agree with you on that one.

Puru.4217:

Good change, it would render S/P 100% useless, nobody would ever bother using D/P at this point, it would also damage the thief MASSIVELY in PvE and remove the only “viable” source of defence P/P has access to.

Also if pistol weren’t meant to do physical damage, why does unload and the +10% pistol damage trait even exist to begin with? Not that i don’t agree this set would be better off being 100% support/condi based but it’s obviously still not what anet wants it to be atm.

if you have a problem with D/P and perma stealth (especially in wvw) then next time make a thread about changing infusion of shadow, i might actually agree with you on that one.

Aaand another one who didn’t bother to read the whole post.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is the reason i was mad at whoever moved the thread here.

Crovax.7854:

Excalibur.9748:

Nah looks like you’re the one who made a fool of himself here, suggesting this outrageous nerf with no compensation. Won’t go over well, I suggest you stop now.

I also think #5 -> #2 is not balanced well but I also know better to suggest a nerf of this magnitude. There are way more reasonable suggestions like other actual thieves have made.

Yet again you have proven to possess absolutely no reading comprehensibility,
I didn’t suggest a nerf, i had an idea and wanted to hear other peoples opinions about it.If you don’t agree, please explain yourself, the others are capeable of this, why not you?

As i said, the compensation is as follows: d/d fills the gap that would be left by d/p loosing stealth, thus making it finally viable again. My point is not that stealth stacking is bad (which it is) but rather the ability to stealth without risk.

d/p gains access to poison and easy to apply 8second weakness (8sec base for leap finisher through poison field, 3sec for blast iirc) This limits the opponents defense and offense. Build diversity would be greater, given that every weapon set has its own means of defense, but you would have known all that, had you actually read what i wrote.

your suggestion noted.

I have an idea. What about lower stealth from xxx sec only for 2 sec. You lose 1 condi per sec. Stealth also heal you for 1,8k hp. We can give to thieves heavy armor. There will be no more crying with perma stealth and THIEVES will have enough survavibility and heal specs compare to other classes as warrior;) I like that idea.

you dont like it? I dont like when i am not in stealth I cant hit hard heavy armor classes. Sorry, i have 3,2k power. Autoattack vs warrior for 400-600 GOOD GOOD.

without cnd/bs + hs i can shoot myself. warrior has 21k is BS set, i have 11,8k in Bs set.

Warrior hammer/shouts: 29k HP, lots of CC, 3,3k armor, 2k+ thoughness.

tell me right now how can i kill warrior 1v1. GC thief when make single mistake and he is dead in 1 sec. Warrior can make 35050 mistakes and there is no risk to die vs thief. If your warrior dies vs d/p thief, he is underleveled or newbie. If you have full equip vs full equiped p/d thief (perma stealth ? OP) you will NOT DIE never. And if you die.. facepalm and delete GW2.

So, you are not here to tweak thief. You are here to nerf it. You play alt thief only to know his mechanics to learn counterplay. I totally agree with Excalibur.9748.