Guild Wars 2

These are some of the Thief changes I would like to see. I’ve been playing Thief since the game was released and I’ve enjoyed a lot of it, but I feel like there are some things missing and some of the changes we see to the class are not bringing what it needs to really cement it in certain areas of the game. A lot of base traitline changes I’d like to see pertain to raid level content and offering certain kinds of team utility.

Shadow Arts

• Rending Shade - Removed.
  
  (Changed To)

• Compromising Strikes - Dealing damage to an enemy with a Stealth Skill applies the ‘Compromised’ debuff.
• Compromised – ‘Increases damage from all sources by 5% for 15 seconds, stacks up to 5 times.

Reasoning:
Shadow arts is not a solid option over most other trait lines that the thief has because of how weak stealth utility is in raids. Stealth doesn’t even work in some of the raids, period. (Gorseval/Keep Construct) No one brings a thief specifically because of their team utility because until now Basilisk Venom wasn’t better than people taking the time to not drool on their keyboard and use their CC as a team. Basilisk Venom being applied to nearby allies baseline does not change that fact either, as helpful as it is.

A lot of what people care about in Raids is damage and team utility. Right now Thief has pretty good damage and little team utility. Necromancer scepter and Chronomancer sword remove boons on auto chains, theres no way boon stealing/removal is good enough to put on a grandmaster trait because its INFINITELY easier to create your own team boons than to rely on stealing them effectively from an enemy.

Boon stealing is not a core enough mechanic that it necessitates the use of thief over other classes that don’t have to trait out or use alternative weapons to do it.

Compromising Strikes from stealth would provide team utility in the form of damage that functions from consistent application of stealth attacks. It serves the purpose of working with a core class mechanic rather than just being more static passive damage. (Based on the current cooldown of Stealth + Attacks)

Example Trait Placement for Reference

Acrobatics

Core (Minor) Traits:

• Expeditious Dodger (Mnr 1)
  -Grants Swiftness on Dodging (6s)
  -(Changed To) Grants Swiftness (6s) when successfully dodging an attack.
• Feline Grace -> Feline Finesse (Mnr 2)
  -Gain Vigor upon successfully dodging an attack. (5s) (1s CD)
  -(Changed To) Increases Damage and Condition Damage by 5% while you have Vigor.
• Endless Stamina -> Adrenaline Advantage (Mnr 3)
  -The effects of Vigor on you are enhanced by 50%.
  -(Changed To) Increases Damage and Condition Damage by 5% while you have Swiftness.[/b]

Top:

• Instant Reflexes (Top 1)
  -Gain Evasion (2s) when health drops below 50% (40s CD) (Unchanged)
• Guarded Initiation (Top 2)
  -Removes Conditions Vulnerability, Confusion, Weakness, and Slow when striking an enemy while health is above 75% Threshold. (1s CD) (Unchanged)
• Assassin’s Reward -> Acrobat’s Reward (Top 3)
  -Heals the player when using skills that spend initiative for each point spent.
  -(Changed To) Dodging grants Evasion (1s) to nearby Allies (Max: 5)(15s CD)

Middle:

• Vigorous Recovery (Mid 1)
  -Gain Vigor (10s) when using a Healing Skill.
  -(Changed To) Gain Vigor (5s) upon successfully dodging an attack. (1s CD)
• Swindler’s Equilibrium (Mid 2)
  -Successfully dodging an attack while wielding a Sword or Spear reduces Steal by a static amount (1s). Increases Sword and Spear damage (7%).
  -(Changed To) Dodging an attack reduces the cooldown of Steal by a static amount (2s). Stealing increases damage dealt by 5% for 5s. (1s CD)
• Upper Hand (Mid 3)
  -Gain Initiative (1) and Regeneration (6s) when you dodge an attack.
  -(Changed To) The effects of Vigor and Swiftness on you are enhanced by 100%

Bottom Traits:

• Pain Response (Bot 1)
  -Gain regeneration and remove damaging conditions when struck while below the Health Threshold (75%) (16s CD)
  -(Changed To) Removes a condition when struck. (2s CD)
• Hard to Catch (Bot 2)
  -[s]Break Stun and Refill Endurance when you are hit with crowd control. (30s CD) (Unchanged)
• Don’t Stop (Bot 3)
  -Cripple and Chill applied to you have 50% reduced effectiveness. Periodically ignores incoming Immobilize changing it to Cripple instead. (10s CD)
  -(Changed To) Reduces effectiveness of Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize by 50%.

Reasoning:
Acrobatics is currently the least useful traitline and a lot of what it does was invalidated in a survivability sense compared to what Daredevil brings to the table. What I did here rearranging the traits and adding some boon reliant damage means that you aren’t losing as much damage to gain more survivability and you are also given the option of some situational team utility that actually ties in with the dodging mechanic. I also wanted to reward successful dodging rather than dodging senselessly.

Utility Skills

• Signet of Whispers (Elite Skill)
  -Passive: Player gains Stealth (1s) every 6 seconds. The stealth from this signet will not apply if the player is already Stealthed.
  -Active: Player gains Super Stealth for 6s (50s cooldown)(Doesn’t Work in PvP/WvW)
  -Super Stealth stealths the player and does not reveal them when they deal damage.

Reasoning:
The purpose of this signet isn’t stealthing for an eternity it is to enable other weapons to be able to reliably use stealth weapon skills that can’t use off-hand dagger or combo with the smoke field from off hand pistol. (Most of these tricks take too much time/resources to be cost effective in combat.)

The Super Stealth thing was by recommendation from a friend because we were reminiscing over playing as Caithe in Meeting the Asura (Living Story Season 2). It would just be regular stealth in anything other than PvE for obvious reasons.

• Soulstealer Trap (Heal Skill)
  -Places a trap that when triggered steals a significant amount of health from enemies caught. (Max 5 Targets)
  -Applies Chill
  -Small heal when cast (Like most other skills)

Reasoning:
Theres no trap heal skill for the thief, might sound like filler, but it would have uses and synergy with some builds that I’m sure some people would appreciate. There isnt a Trap Elite either lol.

Specializations

Hitman/Sniper/Assassin/Marksman/Sharpshot/Deadeye/PewPew (Whatever name)

• Gains Rifle
• Gains Gadgets
• Gains Reload Class Mechanic (Replaces Steal)
• Summary of Weapon Skills: Long range, slow firing, high damage.
• Summary of Gadget Utility Skills: Thematically appropriate skills that fit with both the theme of the class and the theme of the game.

Reload (Class Mechanic):

• Self Cast
• Restores a Moderate amount of Initiative. (4-5)
• Moderate Cooldown (15-20s)
• Gains benefit from some previous Steal oriented traits that are still relevant.
• Intent of this skill is to fuel more weapon skill usage.
• (I’m sure you could change the name to suit its use for non ranged weapons/skills)

Rifle Skills:

Longshot (Skill 1 – 1200 Range – Targeted)

• Primary Attack
• 0 Initiative
• ¾ s Cast Time (Slow)
• Damage reduced the closer to the enemy that you are.
• High Damage at max range.

Headshot (Stealth Skill – 1200 Range – Targeted)

• 0 Initiative
• ¾ s Cast Time (Slow)
• Applies Vulnerability
• High Damage

Shadowblast (Skill 2 – 900 Range – Cone AoE)

• 2 Initiative
• ½ s Cast Time (Medium)
• Blinds all enemies struck.
• Medium Damage

Ruinous Retreat (Skill 3 – No Range – No Target)

• 3 Initiative
• 1s Cast Time (Animation)
• Leaps backwards firing a shell at the ground that detonates chilling and dealing damage to enemies caught in the blast.
• Medium Damage
• Leap Range (600)

Reap and Sew (Skill 4 – 1200 Range – Target)

• 4 Initiative
• Pierces (All Targets)
• ½ s Cast Time
• Applies 5 stacks of Might for 10s.

Singularity Round (Skill 5 – 1200 Range – Target)

• 6 Initiative
• ½ s Cast Time
• Fires an experimental bullet that pulls all nearby enemies to the target.
• Max 5 Targets

Traits:

Example Trait Placement for Reference, Again.

Top – Initiative Traits:

• Tactical Maneuver (Top 1)
  - Dodging restores Initiative (1) (1s CD)
• Preparation (Top 2)
  - Gadgets restore Initiative (2) when cast. (5s CD)
• Deadly Momentum (Top 3)
  - Killing an enemy restores Initiative (3). (1s CD)

Middle – Utility Traits:

• Magitech Munitions (Mid 1)
  - Longshot, Headshot, Vital Shot, and Sneak Attack pierce.
• Into Shadows (Mid 2)
  - Ruinous Retreat applies Stealth (1s) when it finishes. (5s CD)
• Laceration (Mid 3)
  - Ranged attacks apply Bleeding.

Bottom – Rifle Traits:

• Shadowsnare (Bot 1)
  - Enemies caught in Shadowblast are Immobilized (1s) (10s CD)
• Gunleash (Bot 2)
  - Enemies slain with ‘Reap and Sew’ or ‘Unload’ refund the initiative cost of the skill. (5s CD)
• Quick Trigger (Bot 3)
  - Swapping weapons applies Quickness (4s) (9s CD)

Minor – Core Traits:

• Thirst (Mnr 1)
  - Enemies slain drop orbs on death that heal on contact. (Player Only)
• Anticipation (Mnr 2)
  - Ranged attacks deal increased damage against moving targets.
• Revolver (Mnr 3)
  - Every sixth ranged attack has its damage increased.

Gadgets:

• Anchor/Retreat - (Self Cast/Self Cast)
  -Anchor: places a hook on the ground that lasts for 60 seconds. This skills cooldown is refunded if the player does not cast Retreat.
  -Retreat: The player flies backwards to their Anchor point, Knocking Down (1s) enemies caught in their way.
• Magitech Visor - (Target Enemy)
  -Targeted enemy grants Fury and Might to any attackers for a medium duration.
• Ash Legion Flasher (Ground Targeted)
  -Throws a non-lethal grenade that explodes blinding and applying vulnerability to enemies in a large range and stunning enemies caught closest to the center.
• Scorchulator (Target Enemy)
  -Applies a special sticky satchel to an enemy that causes attacks on the target to apply burns. (5s duration) (? CD) (Limit 15 Stacks.)
• Quickstim Health System (Self Cast)
  -Heals the player a medium amount.
  -Applies Vigor and Quickness.

Reasoning:
I’m not alone in the fact that I’d like to see a Rifle specialization on Thief, but I feel very strongly about the types of things I thought would be fun to see in this kind of specialization. This is why I bothered to type it all out, I enjoy brainstorming given my background, but I hope someone enjoys imagining the future state of specializations enough to share in the idea of a Rifle Thief Spec.

• Changes Not Included:
  -Make Thieves Guild elite skill not janky.
  -Make Dagger Storm elite skill not janky.
  -Add an Elite Trap
  -Plot the Downfall of the Han Dynasty.

Sorry to say this, but I have prsonally never ever seen before more bad change suggestions to the “Acrobatics” line, than yours…

These suggestions absolutely let my question myself, if you really have ever played at all for a single second a thief in game, that you try to touch the trait line, which is among all the most absolute useless trait line right now and you successfully make it with your suggestions even more crappier, than it already is… oO

Because all your suggestions to this trait line are straight forward just requests fors NERFS that make the trait worser, than they already ARE or are effects, that are just more useless than what the line already offers…

Lets begin with Expedious Dodger

You want it to grant swiftness only, when successfully dodgign an attack, not anymore generally, thats principally a 50% effectiveness nerf that you suggest there.

Next one feline Grace. you want to turn this trait, which should return to its original effect best that it has on introduction into literally a crappy situantional useful tiny damage buff of lousy 5%, which you have only when you have vigor, and if you have no vigor, this trait is a freaking WASTE.
Ever thought about it for a second, how useless this trait is, if you have no vigor??? Guess not …
Sure, the current FG is also half of the tiem a waste, but thats why i say it should be returned to its original effect, because its original effect was one of the main reasons, why people actually used the Acrobatics Trait Line at all.

Next One… you want to nerf our superior vigor effects for another useless damage buff trait??
Acrobatics is not a Traitline for countless damage boosts!
Acrobatics is a defensive and mobility/self/group support based trait line..at least that should it be…

For which reason do you want to have just another similar lousy damage boost trait, which is again only situationally useful, while you have swiftness this time

Next one, your suggested change to assasins Reward.. again just a straigh nerf idea that can come only from someone with absolutley no thief playing experience.
This trait is actually there to give you as thief more sustainability, so that you dont die as quicky as without it … and you want to change it into a group support trait, just so that every 15 seconds your nearby allies automatically can dodge attacks too, when you dodge.. just of pointless trait, there are better ways to give the thief more Group Support, without destroying its very few sustain options the class has to survive longer in combat at the same time

Next one.. Vigorous Recovery..your change here would make thieves OP, as with somethign like this they would get too much Vigor and could have it basically permanently, or at least long enough over a course of a battle, that it looks like for the enemy, as if they’d have it permanently and perma vigor on thief is simply OP, especially on daredevil

Your Swindlers idea is the very first good one … that woudl be acrtualy an improvement of the thief to make the trait more viable for all thieves in general, while not making it overpowered

but then again your next suggestion for Upper hand is again absolutely overpowered…
100% base increase in effectiveness of Vigor and Swiftness lol with your idea of basicsally perma vigor..yeah sure xD

next idea is again overpowered, losing every two seconds a condition when you get attacked..sure, looking on the name of the trait, such an effect seems to be more fitting, but not everythign that sounds more fitting for the game based on the traits name is also good for the game balance.. you may never forget, that the thigns that you suggest here will be later if they would get realized also something, against that you have to battle agaisnt if an other player uses it against you and then will the moment come, that you wish to yourself, you would have never suggested one or two things here, if you would have to fight agaisnt a thief,m which permanently uses instantly his conditions the moment you attack them…

Next one, again just a idea of yours, that would nerf the original effect, because the original effect of dont stop protects you as thief from being imobilized at all.
With your version it would be a 50% effectivity nerf, because under your version we wouldn’t be immune to immobilize anymore, we could get immobilized again ,but just with 50% lesser durations and in the case of a thief, its more important to NOT get immobilized at all, than to get immobilized with just half efficiency, because just the fact of getting immobilized can be already in a fast combat enough to make up for the difference, if you end up being spiked to death by your enemy, or having actually a chance to successfully avoid being hit at all..

Your ideas would make mostly all the already dead traitline Acrobatics if 90% of all cases just worser, than the traitline is already since the release of HoT, where the whole traitline basically got destroyed just so that the Daredevil line basically has a reason for existance to kind of replace it.

You didn’t bother to consider the insulting tones in your post so I will show you the same vitriol.

Orpheal.8263:

You want it to grant swiftness only, when successfully dodgign an attack, not anymore generally, thats principally a 50% effectiveness nerf that you suggest there.

Next one feline Grace. you want to turn this trait, which should return to its original effect best that it has on introduction into literally a crappy situantional useful tiny damage buff of lousy 5%, which you have only when you have vigor, and if you have no vigor, this trait is a freaking WASTE.
Ever thought about it for a second, how useless this trait is, if you have no vigor??? Guess not …
Sure, the current FG is also half of the tiem a waste, but thats why i say it should be returned to its original effect, because its original effect was one of the main reasons, why people actually used the Acrobatics Trait Line at all.

I’m not sure how to respond to someone who clearly struggles to understand trait to trait synergy, but its clear to me that you might fail to understand whats there because you also struggle with English.

The baseline traits combined with some of the internal traits allows the user to easily acquire both Vigor and Swiftness, if they are not acquiring it from another source already giving them options as an alternative in that case. (This is important to consider in team composition structure where you are gaining or not gaining important buffs from your other traits or from your allies)

Just because you forgot what the previous line of text said as you started reading the next line doesn’t mean you should post about how I made one thing weaker. I made it weaker to justify making something else stronger.

It says Vigor and Swiftness Enhanced, not Duration Increased. Reading is hard. I know, but please try. Effects Enhanced in the common game language refers to the effects that it applies; not the duration that the buff itself has.

You imply I’ve never played thief but you couldn’t be bothered to do research on how enhanced vigor actually works so let me attach a link to this sentence.

Orpheal.8263:

Next One… you want to nerf our superior vigor effects for another useless damage buff trait??
Acrobatics is not a Traitline for countless damage boosts!
Acrobatics is a defensive and mobility/self/group support based trait line..at least that should it be…

Its not countless, I added two, and changed Swindler to be global, but I expect your Math is as strong as your English.

I didn’t nerf ENHANCED Vigor effects for a damage buff, I moved it.

Orpheal.8263:

Next one, your suggested change to assasins Reward.. again just a straigh nerf idea that can come only from someone with absolutley no thief playing experience.
This trait is actually there to give you as thief more sustainability, so that you dont die as quicky as without it … and you want to change it into a group support trait, just so that every 15 seconds your nearby allies automatically can dodge attacks too, when you dodge.. just of pointless trait, there are better ways to give the thief more Group Support, without destroying its very few sustain options the class has to survive longer in combat at the same time

Assassin’s Reward is not a comparable sustain trait compared to Invigorating Precision, but you might not have actually located the Critical Strikes traitline yet. (Most of the time you should be using No Quarter, but I expect you cant find your dodge key either so I’m assuming you need the sustain.)

The dodging for allies component of the trait is not automatic it is when you dodge. This enables the thief to dodge large telegraphed attacks for their nearby allies, which if you are skilled is actually quite a big deal and similarly replicates the Mesmer’s ability to use Distortion to rescue allies from attacks. It is not as powerful as Distortion because of how Distortion works, but it would still be quite useful.

Orpheal.8263:

Next one.. Vigorous Recovery..your change here would make thieves OP, as with somethign like this they would get too much Vigor and could have it basically permanently, or at least long enough over a course of a battle, that it looks like for the enemy, as if they’d have it permanently and perma vigor on thief is simply OP, especially on daredevil

I actually only moved the effects of Feline Grace to Vigorous Recovery, so the Thief always had this trait, it wasn’t something I just invented. I know I moved it from point A to point B and your object permanence hasn’t fully developed yet, but I assure you its still there.

Orpheal.8263:

Next one, again just a idea of yours, that would nerf the original effect, because the original effect of dont stop protects you as thief from being imobilized at all.
With your version it would be a 50% effectivity nerf, because under your version we wouldn’t be immune to immobilize anymore, we could get immobilized again ,but just with 50% lesser durations and in the case of a thief, its more important to NOT get immobilized at all, than to get immobilized with just half efficiency, because just the fact of getting immobilized can be already in a fast combat enough to make up for the difference, if you end up being spiked to death by your enemy, or having actually a chance to successfully avoid being hit at all..

This change (and all of the others) was on speculation obviously. I can’t flawlessly predict how useful this kind of trait change would be without actually testing it, but I can say that Immobilizes are more frequently a threatening force in PvP and I was more curious to see if the long term reduction of all Immobilizes would be more valuable to a thief than converting a single immobilize into cripple.

Don’t look at any suggestion for change as a certain end point with a certain number attached to it, rather as a starting point to see how things could be improved, if its too strong, dial it down, if its too weak, adjust the numbers upwards.

The general idea is to make dodging more effective, and add party oriented options, while not having to sacrifice as much damage potential as you already do by taking Acrobatics over another traitline. Where as it currently struggles offering anything but strong personal dodge enhancement and some condition removal options.

Tenchu,

I know absolutely well what trait synergy is, but nerfing some traits to death in an already doomed trait line, which needs in overall a revival from the HoT-Sacrifice it received, just to improve therefore minimally in a very questionable way, that seems on first look to be far more of more nerfs, than “enhancements”… I don’t know, for me it just looks liek as if you are searchign for an excuement here – one thats not very convincing.

And hey, if Id struggle really so much with English as you say, I’m sure, you wouldn’t have been able to know what I’m talking about so that you could answer to it :P.
I’m surely not the best at English, but I try my best, and hell, I’ve seen here already alot of other people with much worser English than me

If its DPS, what you want for your Thief, you focus on DA or Critical Hits and Trickery, not Acrobatics. Acrobatics and Shadow Arts are the Thieve’s defensive and self support traitlines – they aren’t really meant for traits that improve DPS.

If you took Acrobatics (also already at times, when Daredevil didn’t exist and Acrobatics was alot more effective as trait line, then you made that to become better in defensive situations and to be better at dodging through its trait effects.

Still, I know what your intentions were with your changes to give the thief more group support.. but there are much better options, rather than to dumb down the defensive gameplay for a whole group, because there needs to effectively dodge now only 1 single person an attack, so that automatically all others evade the attack too without that they actually needed to dodge, and instead can turn their thumbs, while just the thief needs to dodge, just because the thief magically dodged everything for the whole group as a single person with just one dodge roll….

And you sure think, something like this wouldn’t be incredible overpowered? No ?
There are already perma evade thieves as build, which are already a pain in the butt to fight agaisnt alone – you want to “enhance” this gameplay now onto a full enemy group that fights nearby of the perma evading thief? God beware us!!!

Here, I show you, how I would change these traits:

Expeditious Dodger > Good Reflexes
Increases the Evasion Frames of your Dodges and Evades by 1 second, so that you avoid incoming damage for a second longer than usually whenever you prform a Dodge roll, or use a Skill that lets you evade attacks, the time in that you can’t be hit will be increased by 1 second.

A Trait Effect, thats not half of all the time useless with no effect, which actually really enhances your Dodges and Evades. A Thief with Good reflexes should be able to dodge and evade attacks more efficiently, than before.

Feline Grace
Your Vigors will be now 50% more effective than before.
When you dodge successfully an attack, you and your nearby allies will receive Vigor and Swiftness.

Endless Stamina > Hard To Catch
Old Effect merged back into Feline Grace.

Hard To Catch should replace its position here and become the 3rd core trait as it should be obvious and absolutely self explanatory, that a very acrobatic thief should be naturally also hard to catch… this trait is mandatory to make acrobatics viable over other trait lines like the one of daredevil, it should be by its nature of its mechanics be th third and most powerful core trair.

Plus additionally:
Increases your Endurance Bar by +1 Bar to let you become able to Dodge one time more. (Daredevil gets it removed and replaced with an other new effect, like increased Initiative Regeneration or more access to Counterattacks & Blocks what would suit a Daredevil much more, than that +1 Endurance Bar for a Dodge more)

The middle line should be changed as followed to give the Thief more Group Support under the Acrobatics Line.

Instant Reflexes > Removed, replaced with a new more useful self support Trait, which passively increases DPS through better Critical Hit Rates, instead if direct Damage Boosts of 5%… because Critical Hits are the theme of a thief, not raw power, we are no warriors!

Critical Agility
Evade incoming attacks for a second, when you critically hit your target.
Increases your Critical Hit Rate by 1% per Intitiative Point you have and lets you gain Quickness and Super Speed for 3 seconds, if your Initiative reaches Max, after having reached first 0

Guarded Initiation
Increases Defense against Damage to you and your nearby allies by 1% per Initiative Point for the first 10 seconds after you started the battle with your target.
After that initial defense boost for you and you allies is your Initiative Gain increased by 10% for the rest of the battle and when you successfully dodge attacks, you and your nearby allies will lose a condition.

This way will become this whole trait alot more useful for the thief and adds group support to the acrobatics line too in for of AoE Condi Removal on successful dodges and an initial defense boost base on your max Initiative, which makes the effect of the trait fit much better then to its name as a whole.

Assassin’s Reward
Should get changed to a constant periodically regeneration thats based on the thief’s initiative he has at the moment, when the periodically regeneration triggers, which is then multiplied by a buffed healing power coefficient, so that healign power actually realyl helps this trait to heal you effectively significantly better, so that AR can be equal to using Signet of Malice, so that if you use both together you can get a goood sustain through outhealing your foes by fightign very aggressively by dealign very quickly alot of hits…whil keeping an ey on your initiative to keep it high when AR is about to trigger, so that skillful thief play gets rewarded, not just spamming only quickly attacks.

The middle 3 would I make like this:

Vigorous Recovery (merged with Upper Hand now)
Swapping your Weapons will completely replenish your Initiative now. (ICD included that ANet has to decide what would be right for that)
You will gain Vigor and Regeneration on Weapon Swap for 5 Seconds.

This effect is MUCH more useful overall for the thief, makes definetely more sense than your halfway useles vigor on successful dodge, which gives you nothing at all while you aren’t fighting. But with Vigor, regeneration and Initiative Regain on Weapon Swap, this trait woudl actually hit 3 birds with 1 stone under the many Thief Design Problems and would make playing a thief alot more fun, especially due to getting Initiative back from changing your weapons in combat, giving players also alot more incentive to change oftenly your weapons in combat as a thief to just profit from these effects.

Swindlers Equilibrium
Taking your suggestion, as its only one, that made sense to me, so lets take this over.

Evasive Attacks
The Leg Power of the Thieves is somewhat increased, all of their Leap Attacks and Shadow Steps will gain increased range by +25%.
Thieves will now also damage foes, if they dodge into/through enemies.
This Evasive Attack will cause several Stacks of Bleedings to the enemy that was hit by the Evasive Attack (Think of a similar trait to that of the Warrior, which deals damage to foes if he dodges into them., just that this one here makes the Thief also more mobile in his acrobatic attacks and more dangerous at the same time in its swift evasive movements.)

Also a way to add more DPS, without that it needs to be directly more raw damage in form of +5% damage boosts…Acrobatics is about evasion..so you want more DPS wioth Acrobatics, then use also something thats based on evasion to deal more damage in that moment.

And lastly the bottom 3 traits:

Don’t Stop
Stays unchanged

Pain Response
You idea, but with just a higher not so overpowered ICD. You lose Conditions when being struck, with an ICD of instead of 2 seconds, every 10 seconds. and lets you gain on the first initial damage you receive that lets you have at that moment more than 3 Conditinos for 4 seconds then Resistance with an ICD of 15s

Due to Hard to Catch being moved into Core, lastly a new Trait here

Salto Mortale
Perform a Salto Attack (Bound) when you Dodge. Yes the Bound Dodge of Daredevil should get moved to Acrobatics to give this way Acrobatics indirectly more DPS.
The DD’s Bound should get then replaced by a new different Dodge Style that works more like a deadly counter attack which works as a Hard CC knocking down the enemy when successfully dodging an attack while dealign significant damage to a signle target, instead of dealign aoE damage, the aoe boudn is much more the thign of an acrobatic thief, while a daredevil should be more about direrect single target destruction with is direct damage dodge, cause lotus is already an aoe type of dodge for them, while the other is a defensive dodge, DD needs a damage dodge, tghats specialied agaist single targets to take out specific targets quickly, before they can become dangerous.

Thats the way how I would revive acrobatics in a way, how it would receive more Group Support and I included your intention of givving it more DPS in a better and more subtle way, that includes gameplay mechanics, instead of addign only halway useful buff based direct damage boosts.

Well and I’m the attorney of SA and daggerstorm:
I don’t care about Rending Shade but if you’re running D/D (which you should in PvE), then you have CnD which adds 3 stacks of vulnerability = 3% more damage to your enemy – and hey it stacks.
Daggerstorm is one of the best designed skills in this game – if you don’t know how to make it work it’s your loss – but I would appreciate it if people who don’t understand it left it alone.
Also: PvE raid squads usually have more than enough boons to make up for one thief.
The skill in this game deteriorated with HoT and I still had hope that some of it would come back but it seems as if it will only get worse.
And: I really hate PvE – you can sleep through most of it – why do people want buffs for that snoozefest?

Jana.6831:

I don’t care about Rending Shade but if you’re running D/D (which you should in PvE), then you have CnD which adds 3 stacks of vulnerability = 3% more damage to your enemy – and hey it stacks.

You know what also provides more vulnerability and requires less work? Autoattacking with staff on daredevil, but i guess that is the skill in this game deteriorating via an expansion.

Jana.6831:

Daggerstorm is one of the best designed skills in this game – if you don’t know how to make it work it’s your loss – but I would appreciate it if people who don’t understand it left it alone.

Thematically i would agree, its a very cool skill. However, when with the new specializations adding in a mobile reflection field that you can continue to do REAL damage or cc in addition to that reflection field, it is terrible. Plus the cooldown on daggerstorm is too long in today’s terms so its useless.

Jana.6831:

Also: PvE raid squads usually have more than enough boons to make up for one thief.
The skill in this game deteriorated with HoT and I still had hope that some of it would come back but it seems as if it will only get worse.
And: I really hate PvE – you can sleep through most of it – why do people want buffs for that snoozefest?

First off, just because you can carry a thief, doesn’t mean you should. Not all groups are created equal in skill and adding alternate ways to build raids for success would actually promote more viable ways to play. Secondly/lastly, what does this part have to do with the OP or are you just being super random for no reason?

Zafken.1708:

You know what also provides more vulnerability and requires less work? Autoattacking with staff on daredevil, but i guess that is the skill in this game deteriorating via an expansion.

Then use it?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm
It’s more than that btw.

Zafken.1708:

Thematically i would agree, its a very cool skill. However, when with the new specializations adding in a mobile reflection field that you can continue to do REAL damage or cc in addition to that reflection field, it is terrible. Plus the cooldown on daggerstorm is too long in today’s terms so its useless.

What? It is a mobile reflection field – what are you talking about?
I’m not using it because it looks pretty, btw.

Zafken.1708:

First off, just because you can carry a thief, doesn’t mean you should.
Not all groups are created equal in skill and adding alternate ways to build raids for success would actually promote more viable ways to play. Secondly/lastly, what does this part have to do with the OP or are you just being super random for no reason?

PvE players whined they need something to require skill – so they got PvE raids. And the faceroll Hot specialisations which destroyed pvp and wvw on top of that. And that is my point: the stuff you want for PvE would further mess with the other game modes and PvE is already fine, even if thief brings no group utility – which I do – I’m just not a healer or anything, I’m self sufficient, know how to survive and how to deal damage – that is my role – no need to turn me into a healer or anything. If that’s too much for PvE thieves or if others can’t live without a tenth squadmember bringing boons then you indeed shouldn’t roll thief, sorry.

Jana.6831:

Then use it?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm
It’s more than that btw.

I misquoted the first one that time, my bad. I meant for that to be in response to your CnD remark. I also fixed my other post to reflect what i meant.

Jana.6831:

What? It is a mobile reflection field – what are you talking about?
I’m not using it because it looks pretty, btw.

I’m talking about scrapper’s toolbelt skill
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defense_Field
that instead of a being a channel that does no damage and pretty much leaves you vulnerable with all the rampant cc and boon corruption allows you to use any of your other skills while providing a mobile reflection bubble.

Jana.6831:

PvE players whined they need something to require skill – so they got PvE raids. And the faceroll Hot specialisations which destroyed pvp and wvw on top of that. And that is my point: the stuff you want for PvE would further mess with the other game modes and PvE is already fine, even if thief brings no group utility – which I do – I’m just not a healer or anything, I’m self sufficient, know how to survive and how to deal damage – that is my role – no need to turn me into a healer or anything. If that’s too much for PvE thieves or if others can’t live without a tenth squadmember bringing boons then you indeed shouldn’t roll thief, sorry.

Some of the HoT specializations weren’t implemented in the best way, however, many of them opened up the field for some classes to perform better and in different ways, like druid, scrapper, and chronomancer. The elite specs just got created with better technology and in ways that allow defense and offense at the same time, and the base classes should get some revamps to allow competition with the elite specs, but it is not PvE’s fault since a few of the specs were made with pvp/wvw in mind, specifically the scrapper.

Orpheal.8263:

Tenchu,

I know absolutely well what trait synergy is, but nerfing some traits to death in an already doomed trait line, which needs in overall a revival from the HoT-Sacrifice it received, just to improve therefore minimally in a very questionable way, that seems on first look to be far more of more nerfs, than “enhancements”… I don’t know, for me it just looks liek as if you are searchign for an excuement here – one thats not very convincing.

Serious object permanence issues. I didn’t delete a bunch of traits I moved them into places where they made more sense, and removed the power from some things to make other things more powerful.

Orpheal.8263:

And hey, if Id struggle really so much with English as you say, I’m sure, you wouldn’t have been able to know what I’m talking about so that you could answer to it :P.
I’m surely not the best at English, but I try my best, and hell, I’ve seen here already alot of other people with much worser English than me

Believe me, because most of your ideas seem to be fueled by belief, and not experience, I had to spend an inordinate amount of time deciphering your very chaotic post.

Orpheal.8263:

If its DPS, what you want for your Thief, you focus on DA or Critical Hits and Trickery, not Acrobatics. Acrobatics and Shadow Arts are the Thieve’s defensive and self support traitlines – they aren’t really meant for traits that improve DPS.

The Thief is a DAMAGE class, no one takes them for their supreme utility, or heals or class specific team buffs that only they provide in raids. The Thief is fun to play, but burdening a team with a selfish role is something you might do every once in a while, but is kind of frustrating. Most testing seems to conclude that Condi builds took a hit with the last patch too even with the advent of baseline sharing on venoms.

I didn’t propose my changes to replace Trickery, Critical Strikes, or Deadly Arts as a damage option, I proposed them to pad the damage loss from taking Acrobatics for more survivability and adding a form of team utility as an option.

Orpheal.8263:

Still, I know what your intentions were with your changes to give the thief more group support.. but there are much better options, rather than to dumb down the defensive gameplay for a whole group, because there needs to effectively dodge now only 1 single person an attack, so that automatically all others evade the attack too without that they actually needed to dodge, and instead can turn their thumbs, while just the thief needs to dodge, just because the thief magically dodged everything for the whole group as a single person with just one dodge roll….

The timer that I proposed which could be changed, but in its current state does not allow for a SINGLE thief to dodge for the entire group every time. You would start to barely reach total coverage with four thieves, not really an option. This could be furthermore controlled with a range restriction.

Don’t stick a bunch of senseless ad hoc arguments into a post and expect me to take anything you say seriously.

Orpheal.8263:

snipped cancer-post changes

None of your changes actually account for systems that would be feasible to test in a short time frame, some of them would require new systems and engineer time. Some of them completely disregard any sense of how it might impact parallel game modes, some of them are needlessly complex and are an amalgamation of effects rather than a focused choice for the player to make or for them to understand.

The core of acrobatics is and should be to support dodging as a method of control for the thief and to enhance its functional effects. Not to shoehorn a bunch of weird things in to substitute for the survivability that dodging creates.

A thief’s power is not in heal tanking, its in actually making the effort to dodge the damage that they anticipate and likewise respond with their own attack. It is a much more difficult method of surviving in certain game modes against what one might compare in Guardian or Necromancer, but its supposed to be challenging.

Orpheal.8263:

Thats the way how I would revive acrobatics in a way, how it would receive more Group Support and I included your intention of givving it more DPS in a better and more subtle way, that includes gameplay mechanics, instead of addign only halway useful buff based direct damage boosts.

Nothing is subtle about a train-wreck.

You haven’t contributed anything but abrasive cancer posting, because you can’t separate whats fun from whats feasible. The difficulty here is that I can’t tell if you’re trolling or you’re actually incapable of detecting these things. Both of these directions warrant that I dont bother responding to anything you post, so thats the simple answer. You’re free to waste your time, but I’m done wasting mine.

Jana.6831:

What? It is a mobile reflection field – what are you talking about?
I’m not using it because it looks pretty, btw.

Dagger Storm is a skill that does many things and excels at none. Its like the Tiny Tim of all Trades. The Mobile Reflection thing is interesting but is rarely useful over just dodging or letting another class take a better projectile reflection or destruction skill that always has a shorter cooldown.

The damage and condition application is poor and inconsistent and the cooldown is abysmal.

Its a cool skill, but largely inefficient. Like most racial skills really.

Jana.6831:

PvE players whined they need something to require skill – so they got PvE raids. And the faceroll Hot specialisations which destroyed pvp and wvw on top of that. And that is my point: the stuff you want for PvE would further mess with the other game modes and PvE is already fine, even if thief brings no group utility

Your post points towards complaint, but does not make a point mostly, much like your original, you indicate you are upset by something, but do not propose a way to fix it. And to be fair what your gripe right here indicates is actually quite valid, the PvP and PvE balance of this game should have been separated in a huge way a LONG time ago, but unfortunately it hasn’t.

I’m glad if you aren’t interested in PvE, but dont senselessly apply moaning to a thread focused on PvE changes about how they aren’t relevant, when they are. Provide functional critique to the things you want to see fixed, not divert attention from the actual issue.

Jana.6831:

which I do – I’m just not a healer or anything, I’m self sufficient, know how to survive and how to deal damage – that is my role – no need to turn me into a healer or anything. If that’s too much for PvE thieves or if others can’t live without a tenth squadmember bringing boons then you indeed shouldn’t roll thief, sorry.

I actually proposed to remove the senseless healing that obfuscates the power of dodging in the acrobatics tree and dodging for other players was my simple and what I believe to be creative way to approach offering some kind of thematically appropriate team utility to the traitline.

I certainly CANNOT say everything balance wise would be perfect without testing, but that is with anything.

Zafken.1708:

I’m talking about scrapper’s toolbelt skill

You still don’t get the beauty of daggerstorm and that was my initial point: If it’s of no use to you, don’t use it but leave it for those who do.

Zafken.1708:

Some of the HoT specializations weren’t implemented in the best way, however, many of them opened up the field for some classes to perform better and in different ways, like druid, scrapper, and chronomancer. The elite specs just got created with better technology and in ways that allow defense and offense at the same time, and the base classes should get some revamps to allow competition with the elite specs, but it is not PvE’s fault since a few of the specs were made with pvp/wvw in mind, specifically the scrapper.

Wrong – it’s powercreep all around and the whole game has been made faceroll easy. It’s fine if you fight against mob, not so fine if you fight against other players – and that is my issue.

Ok, Tenchu, then I will it make now straight forward easy to understand for you with as less words as possible
Maybe that will work better, than trying to explain you in detail, why your suggested skills would be mostly junk compared to my “try” to overwork your ideas into something, that would make your concept more senseful and in fact alot more fun to play, than the other way around.

Traits that are only useful for you half of the time and provide otherwise NO EFFECTS are a freaking WASTE!!

If you can’t understand this simple thing, then I’m very sorry for you.
Every blind person with a crutch should be able to realize, what I tried here to improve with your basic ideas where it fitted, which can be summed up in two points:

1) I added everywhere at Traits that are half of the time only useful in specific situations effects, that are useful for the player outside of the time, when the other effect is at the moment inactive for you, so that the Trait isn’t anymore half of its tiem just a waste for you, but actually gives you something, from which you profitate all the time.

2) I changed your direct damage boosts into (and thats what I meant with subtle) into something, that uses instead of direct DPS boosts to the DPS of the Thief, mechanics, that indirectly increase the DPS output by making usage instead of Gameplay Mechanics.

Like this example

Instead of +5% direct DPS increase while having Vigor >12-15% more Critical Hit Rate with that you deal more oftenly critical hits, thus have more DPS through more Critical Hits, because anet nerfed the Critical Hit Rate of the Thief with some of the balance patches of the past basicalyl into oblivion and it needs to get increased again!!!
Also Skills like Backstab would profitate from this, as it would have then again higher chances to deal more damage, because hitting with a BS not critical feels like hitting like a wet noodle and I think thats something even you can agree with…

The rest of your comments will I ignore now as same as nonchalant as you did with mine “to waste no time”, regardless of how rude this may come over :P

This is all kinds of horrible.