Guild Wars 2

That’s exactly how it feels every time my PvE build is basically F’d due to nerfs (aka “balancing” ROFLMFAO) because of PvP QQ’g which always seems to be directed towards this class (. We PvE players don’t seem to count much in MMO’s these days as devs seem to jump through hoops to make PvP’rs happy (which is a never ending battle).

Thanks to this last, in a series of nerfs for the thief class, I’m taking a break from my thief. Yeah yeah yeah, there are those out there who will respond with “I’ve never had any trouble on -my- thief. You just need to L2P…yap yap yap.” Well, guess what…not everyone can be as god-like and uber as you. M’kay?

There have been PvE’rs trying to make their voices heard on these forums but we are totally shouted down and lost in the avalanche of topics and posts regarding PvP. We are the “red haired stepchild” of MMO’s, it seems, the kitten children who don’t seem to matter much or have the “importance” associated with PvP players in the eyes of the devs.

Now I’m waiting for my others classes to get nerfed as well because someone got butt hurt in PvP thus we PvE players must pay the price. If I was paying a monthly fee, this, combined with many (not all) of the storyline quests being too difficult to solo (unless you are a warrior or guardian) would be a definite game breaker causing me to cancel my subscription. Thank goodness I still have Rift to play when I want to play a rogue/thief class and still have fun doing so.

I have an honest question for you – Why are you posting this in every thread here?

Another honest question – How exactly is your PvE build “F’ed” due to the assassin’s signet change? Like, don’t just say it’s unusable – Why is it unusable?

The only possible way it could be unusable is if every time you wanted to fight a mob, you used Assassin’s signet/backstab on it. Is that the case?

To answer your question, the current topic on many threads is the newest nerf to his the thief class and my response on those similar threads will also be similar because it’s all the same topic more or less. If you’ve been reading those various threads then it has already been explained n at least one or two of them how PvE play is effected by these nerfs in general and the latest one specifically so I figure it doesn’t need to be said yet again (and it seems you take personal exception to the fact that I may have repeated myself in some fashion on threads all dealing with this topic so why would I stress you further by repeating yet again). You -do- know, I hope, that a backstab build on a thief is not exactly unheard of…considering the type of class it is regardless of if it is used “every time” or not.

The fact that PvE players can’t be heard over the din and sheer number of PvP threads, comments, topics, and discussions is a problem, imo. If it’s not for you then this thread isn’t likely to be of much interest.

You still didn’t answer my question at all though. Why is your backstab build “unusable” now? I don’t see any reasoning or math behind it, so this remains a simple rant post.

I mean, I understand you’re angry because you perceive a specific rotation will cause less frontloaded damage – I just don’t think you actually understand what the change is doing.

As I mentioned, the only possible way your build could be made “Useless” (Which isn’t even the right word, since it’s still quite useable) would be if you waited 30 seconds before every fight to use Assassin’s Signet/Backstab. On every mob. I’m assuming that’s not the case, because that sounds tedious.

Care to explain how the recent patch made your current build weaker?
Because the change to Assassin Signet made it overall stronger, there’s only one clear nerf (Whirling Axe), the rest are either bug fixes which have nothing to do with PvP or buffs.

I’m also confused by this thread. I’m a backstab thief myself and I actually like the changes to AS more than the old model for it…

I think a backstab build is weak in PvE to start with, why would this impact you at all? In my opinion if you are having a hard time with PvE, you need to try other builds. I use different gear and weapons for PvE and I switch around about half my traits. If there was a build/gear locker where I could pay 3 silver to change, I would have an entirely different build, but I am too lazy to do it manually each time so I just adjust the traits on my pvp build.

Took me some time to try it all and figure out what worked best for my play style, but eventually I found something that worked for me in PvE.

“Yeah yeah yeah, there are those out there who will respond with “I’ve never had any trouble on -my- thief. You just need to L2P…yap yap yap.” Well, guess what…not everyone can be as god-like and uber as you. M’kay?”

I’m flattered that you think I’m such an amazing player, but I’m pretty sure it is just that thieves are just good at PvE, not me specifically.

As for your whole rage sidebar about PvE being less important to developers than PvP and PvE players suffering for it, I’ve found the opposite to be true much more often. Besides, the most recent patch changes were mostly changes that weakened PvP and boosted PvE, so I’m not really following your logic.

Devs balance around PvP (generally) and release content for PvE much more often than for PvP. Take a look at the newest update. What did PvPers get? Not much, aside from a few balance changes. Not even the promised paid tourneys were released! Don’t talk about being “the red haired stepchild” just because Assassins Signet was changed to cause less frontloaded damage. PvP often takes the back seat to keep the large crowd of PvErs happy.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and opinions will vary. I’m not the only PvE’r who has remarked that PvP and PvE elements should be kept distinct from each other so that changes to things for PvP’rs (aka “balance” LOL!) doesn’t effect PvE play. Since, as one comment noted, they balance things around PvP, they should keep those “tweaks” related to PvP and not also have them effecting PvE players. That is all.

As far as “content” releases, this is not that discussion. Feel free to start one if you wish.

While I agree with you that PvE often gets kittened over for PvP balance (that’s part of why I left WoW, actually), this is really an odd time to bring it up. The latest wave of thief changes was actually a buff on the PvE front where a single 150% backstab isn’t going to kill most mobs but you can easily get 5 heartseekers in while a boss is under 25%.

I still don’t see the question being answered though. I’m still entirely curious as to how you think this can be a PvE nerf when it actually buffs PvE play.

Are you serious? Thieves are godlike in pve, the only weapon you EVER need is Shortbow. It can do everything. Combined with Caltrops and Signet of Malice there’s nothing you can’t do.

If you’re talking about Pistol Whip, you still use it for the stun/evasion, who cares if it does the same dmg as auto attack? You were better of maintaining Black Powder fields and auto attacking before as well anyway.

bwillb.2165:

While I agree with you that PvE often gets kittened over for PvP balance (that’s part of why I left WoW, actually), this is really an odd time to bring it up. The latest wave of thief changes was actually a buff on the PvE front where a single 150% backstab isn’t going to kill most mobs but you can easily get 5 heartseekers in while a boss is under 25%.

That’s one of the reasons I left WoW, as well. That and the nearly myopic content releases focused on raiding almost exclusively. They made content so difficult you couldn’t even go after the “normal” mobs in the new expansion zones without a whole group and all it was about was farm farm farm. That and PvP was all they cared about so they lost me as a customer after having been there several years. I went to Rift and never looked back.

I understand the current nerf isn’t horrid but it definitely makes it harder for specific play styles who concentrate on that initial burst damage. I’ve played this type of class since EQ1 in PvE and PvP (even though PvP is not really my cup of tea) quite successfully until this game. I’ve studied builds, weapon combos etc so I’m not uniformed. However, with every nerf to make PvP’rs happy, they screw with PvE play styles to the point where everyone will basically be forced into one or two builds just to survive and level. The same will happen in PvP as well. In essence, we lose all that ability to individualize our play style which was one of the big selling points of the game.

I just find it frustrating and sad because this is usually my favorite class to play.

mrsrachelm.7618:

In essence, we lose all that ability to individualize our play style which was one of the big selling points of the game.

Eh you’re wrong there, at least on this particular change. It slightly nerfed the assassin backstab burst, but it made several builds more viable, such as P/P which felt fairly weak before but can now do some pretty decent burst with unload or sneak attack. Shortbow is also slightly stronger now, but it was already in a pretty good place. Pistol whip will also see a bit of a boost from this, but overall its still weaker than it was before the previous nerf. And as I said before even Dagger mainhand is going to be stronger in PvE. You don’t have the initial burst, but that was never a really strong point in PvE to begin with, as mobs have too much health. But now you can get off 5 buffed up heartseekers in quick succession for amazing finishers. Finally there’s S/D which is slightly better now, still not great but they’re getting there.

I’m still lost and trying to figure out how a PvE buff to pretty much every single build is something that’s “streamlining individuality” and “hurting PvE play”.

Like, this change singlehandedly made a whole bunch of other builds more useful, and didn’t change the backstab build – All it did was slightly alter it so BS doesn’t frontload as much and you put more Heartseekers into your rotation.

If this was a straight up 30% hit to Assassin’s signet, there would be a case here – That would be hurting PvE at the expense of PvP, but that isn’t what happened. Instead, we got what’s actually a really nice buff to every other thief build in existence, and the main build this should affect doesn’t get hurt from it at all, it just has to change its rotation to accomodate it. :p

Could be worst, You could have been a ranger, now theres a sad lot
I was one, I unshelved my thief after the disastrous 4ms nerf

Ignoring the Signet issue, I will say (and I know people will counter with the argument that this game is meant for PVP) that ArenaNet does not seem to consider the wider effect of changes, not just thieves’, are on the rest of their game.

mrsrachelm.7618:

That’s exactly how it feels every time my PvE build is basically F’d due to nerfs (aka “balancing” ROFLMFAO) because of PvP QQ’g which always seems to be directed towards this class (. We PvE players don’t seem to count much in MMO’s these days as devs seem to jump through hoops to make PvP’rs happy (which is a never ending battle).

Lol, in most MMORPGs, when someone who does PvP complains about balance, the response they often get is “this is a PvE game, go play LoL”

Also what is it with this moronic assumption that things get nerfed due to complaints, if they worked on the basis of complaints, Necros would be fixed, Engineers would have weapon stats affect their kits, etc. Things also get nerfed that barely anyone mentions, stability on engineers flamethrowers for instance.

The reality is classes will have changes made, because they are out of balance, especially in new games.

mrsrachelm.7618:

Thank goodness I still have Rift to play when I want to play a rogue/thief class and still have fun doing so.

A prime exmple of a game where people ae told it is a PvE game and PvPers had to put up with raid gear unbalancing the joke of the PvP more than it already was, seems you just can;t cope with a game where PvE isn’t constantly put first.

While the change to Assassination Signet was actually a good one with respect to other thief specs and weapons, the general trend of “balancing” due to PVP has been a very poor one, and PVE has definitely been suffering for it. PW nerf is a perfect example of that. Everyone knew the real culprit behind PW nerf cries as well as a number of other class builds is Quickness, but instead of nerfing that broken stat they nerfed a perfectly balanced weapon ability. PW + quickness in PVP is still almost as effective as it was, while PW in PVE without quickness is mediocre at best.

Have you “PvP changes break PvE”-guys have ever considered that if a specific skill, trait or a combination of them is so strong that it outshines all other options of the profession or even all profession and thus is nerfed may have been too strong in PvE, too?

Sylosi.6503:

Lol, in most MMORPGs, when someone who does PvP complains about balance, the response they often get is “this is a PvE game, go play LoL”

Really? What are these “most MMORPGs” where that is the case? I’ve been dying to find an MMO that isn’t ruined by the whiniest demographic of gamers, i.e. PVPers. While I do enjoy occasional PVP, I have always said that tailoring to that demographic is spelling doom to your MMO. They generally carry no loyalty to any brand, demand minimal character investment requirement, scream the loudest over every little thing, and are the first to move on to the next new “shiny” (i.e. their next MMO victim), leaving behind a broken game for PVErs.

DesertRose.2031:

Have you “PvP changes break PvE”-guys have ever considered that if a specific skill, trait or a combination of them is so strong that it outshines all other options of the profession or even all profession and thus is nerfed may have been too strong in PvE, too?

Absolutely not, because blowing up one mob in 2 seconds and then fighting the rest of the mobs for the next minute in a crippled state without your cooldowns is neither overpowered nor a good strategy for any PVEer. PVE is about sustained DPS, not blowing your load in 2 seconds and being flacid for the next minute.

OP still didn’t answer what his build or PvE style was. Sounds like Obama talking policy on the next 4 years.

In every build except the pure Backstab 3-shot single mobs build, this Signet is now much more useful, provides much more damage overall, and provides for much more variety in how it’s used. This is a benefit to PvE builds across the board for those using this Signet. Seeing as no class or build has a hard time with single mobs, I have no idea what build you have where this Signet “F’d” your build up so much you want to rage on the forums about it. Care to explain how this affects your build?

Have you “PvP changes break PvE”-guys have ever considered that if a specific skill, trait or a combination of them is so strong that it outshines all other options of the profession or even all profession and thus is nerfed may have been too strong in PvE, too?

Considered, and debunked. By the time the one-hit wonder burst builds are ready to go again, mobs have already respawned twice. Plus in the upper levels it’s pretty rare to be able to pull just 1 mob.

Rizzy.8293:

Could be worst, You could have been a ranger, now theres a sad lot
I was one, I unshelved my thief after the disastrous 4ms nerf

I have a ranger as my main now. I really enjoy the class. Have played that one along with rogue types since I started MMO gaming. Yeah, the "
4ms" nerf with a decimal error, LOL. I still find my ranger enjoyable but then I don’t PvP in this game and haven’t PvP’d since my time in WoW and that “4ms” nerf would make PvP sooooo bad.

I suspect this is best discussed on the ranger forum rather than here, though.

bwillb.2165:

Have you “PvP changes break PvE”-guys have ever considered that if a specific skill, trait or a combination of them is so strong that it outshines all other options of the profession or even all profession and thus is nerfed may have been too strong in PvE, too?

Considered, and debunked. By the time the one-hit wonder burst builds are ready to go again, mobs have already respawned twice. Plus in the upper levels it’s pretty rare to be able to pull just 1 mob.

This is very true. Even at mid-to-high levels you (general term use) can see that starting to happen and it quickly devolves into an endurance fight which, given the more mob-rich areas, is almost a given to lose if you don’t run and pray you out run the mobs and don’t aggro any more.

By the time you clear one area in front of you in order to move forward the area directly behind you has started to respawn and aggro and you start all over again and have a devil of a time progressing forward in closed in areas like caves, tunnels or small mob-rich quest areas which you MUST complete in order to finish your quest.

Unless you’re the type to run around with at least one or more play partners most of the time, the above scenario becomes more and more common. Due to my schedule I solo most of the time as do many PvE players who group up sporadically but don’t necessarily want to HAVE to do so for every little thing they do in game.

mrsrachelm.7618:

Unless you’re the type to run around with at least one or more play partners most of the time, the above scenario becomes more and more common. Due to my schedule I solo most of the time as do many PvE players who group up sporadically but don’t necessarily want to HAVE to do so for every little thing they do in game.

Even if you do run with a group, it’s not that effective. In a group normal mobs will go down quick enough that your burst is wasted, then the group is basically carrying you for 90 seconds. And bosses have enough health that a burst every 90 seconds isn’t much better than sustained damage during that period.

Okamakiri.8746:

Sylosi.6503:

Lol, in most MMORPGs, when someone who does PvP complains about balance, the response they often get is “this is a PvE game, go play LoL”

Really? What are these “most MMORPGs” where that is the case? I’ve been dying to find an MMO that isn’t ruined by the whiniest demographic of gamers, i.e. PVPers. While I do enjoy occasional PVP, I have always said that tailoring to that demographic is spelling doom to your MMO. They generally carry no loyalty to any brand, demand minimal character investment requirement, scream the loudest over every little thing, and are the first to move on to the next new “shiny” (i.e. their next MMO victim), leaving behind a broken game for PVErs.

I would really like to hear that list of MMO’s as well. All the major and successful MMO’s have always catered to the PvP crowd when it comes to the near constant nerf bat and tweaks. If there are any successful MMO’s out there that don’t do that…I would be very interested in hearing what they are and if they are still online. I might have to go check them out if I haven’t already. The ONLY current game I am aware of which has remained -somewhat- balanced between the needs of PvP’rs and PvE’rs is Rift.

mrsrachelm.7618:

Okamakiri.8746:

Sylosi.6503:

Lol, in most MMORPGs, when someone who does PvP complains about balance, the response they often get is “this is a PvE game, go play LoL”

Really? What are these “most MMORPGs” where that is the case? I’ve been dying to find an MMO that isn’t ruined by the whiniest demographic of gamers, i.e. PVPers. While I do enjoy occasional PVP, I have always said that tailoring to that demographic is spelling doom to your MMO. They generally carry no loyalty to any brand, demand minimal character investment requirement, scream the loudest over every little thing, and are the first to move on to the next new “shiny” (i.e. their next MMO victim), leaving behind a broken game for PVErs.

I would really like to hear that list of MMO’s as well. All the major and successful MMO’s have always catered to the PvP crowd when it comes to the near constant nerf bat and tweaks. If there are any successful MMO’s out there that don’t do that…I would be very interested in hearing what they are and if they are still online. I might have to go check them out if I haven’t already. The ONLY current game I am aware of which has remained -somewhat- balanced between the needs of PvP’rs and PvE’rs is Rift.

Everquest 2, maybe. I haven’t played it in a long time but when I did it didn’t even have PvP.

Okamakiri.8746:

While the change to Assassination Signet was actually a good one with respect to other thief specs and weapons, the general trend of “balancing” due to PVP has been a very poor one, and PVE has definitely been suffering for it. PW nerf is a perfect example of that. Everyone knew the real culprit behind PW nerf cries as well as a number of other class builds is Quickness, but instead of nerfing that broken stat they nerfed a perfectly balanced weapon ability. PW + quickness in PVP is still almost as effective as it was, while PW in PVE without quickness is mediocre at best.

Very very true and that was a bread-n-butter part of my PvE build originally. I threw my hands up in disgust when they fixed the wrong thing because I accepted that quickness had to be tweaked and figured it would be. I, like most thief players, knew quickness needed to be balanced out and were shocked to our core when we saw what they did instead. It kittened PvE builds which used it as the main part of their build and STILL didn’t make the non-thief PvP QQ’rs happy. I kind of expected they would have fixed their “fix” by now but I can just imagine the outcry from the non-thief PvP’rs if they did.

bwillb.2165:

mrsrachelm.7618:

Okamakiri.8746:

Sylosi.6503:

Lol, in most MMORPGs, when someone who does PvP complains about balance, the response they often get is “this is a PvE game, go play LoL”

Really? What are these “most MMORPGs” where that is the case? I’ve been dying to find an MMO that isn’t ruined by the whiniest demographic of gamers, i.e. PVPers. While I do enjoy occasional PVP, I have always said that tailoring to that demographic is spelling doom to your MMO. They generally carry no loyalty to any brand, demand minimal character investment requirement, scream the loudest over every little thing, and are the first to move on to the next new “shiny” (i.e. their next MMO victim), leaving behind a broken game for PVErs.

I would really like to hear that list of MMO’s as well. All the major and successful MMO’s have always catered to the PvP crowd when it comes to the near constant nerf bat and tweaks. If there are any successful MMO’s out there that don’t do that…I would be very interested in hearing what they are and if they are still online. I might have to go check them out if I haven’t already. The ONLY current game I am aware of which has remained -somewhat- balanced between the needs of PvP’rs and PvE’rs is Rift.

Everquest 2, maybe. I haven’t played it in a long time but when I did it didn’t even have PvP.

I would think it goes without saying that in order to actually answer with that list of MMO’s they would actually have to have PvP and PvE in order to cater to one -over- the other.

Yeah…..it’s really just not so bad.

You are seriously overreacting and the class is just as viable as it was 2 days ago in both PvE and PvP (it could even be argued that they even strengthened it for PvP so long as you aren’t using a backstab build and expecting to just kill your opponent instantly).

Thief has definitely been at the wrong end of the nerf stick but it’s still a very strong class. I don’t really see what your issue is, honestly, aside from some general animosity.

Okamakiri.8746
Really? What are these “most MMORPGs” where that is the case? I’ve been dying to find an MMO that isn’t ruined by the whiniest demographic of gamers, i.e. PVPers. While I do enjoy occasional PVP, I have always said that tailoring to that demographic is spelling doom to your MMO. They generally carry no loyalty to any brand, demand minimal character investment requirement, scream the loudest over every little thing, and are the first to move on to the next new “shiny” (i.e. their next MMO victim), leaving behind a broken game for PVErs.

Go try Rift, it is game for Pvers, unless they’ve magically woken up, when I played, PvE Raid weapons were far superior to the best you could get in PvP, plus for any class that didn’t get hit much (e.g – rogue playing a marksman) or if you had pocket healer, then also 2-4 bits of PvE raid armour were far superior.

Hence their PvP has bascially died on its kitten (as has the game in general)

As for whining, Pvers just whine about slighlty different things, as we are on Rift some of the many things Pvers endlesly whined about:

- Class A has higher DPS than class B, my class is not viable.
- Class A is a far superior tank in virtually every dungeon / raid, what is the point of my class having a tanking soul (tree).
- Why have you released a bugfest of raid that is impossible to complete.
- Why did you let guilds x,y & ,z test the raid, of course they are goign to get world firsts, it is unfair.
- Raid is too hard, make it easier people are starting to quit from my guild.
- Raid is too easy, stop nerfing raids for these scrubs, people are quitting from my guild to find a challenge elsewhere.
- I had to work for my raid gear, now these casuals can get it from dungeons, blah, blah.
- My class is catatstrophically boring to play in a raid (bard:)), what numpty designed this class, I want an immediate redesign.
- What is the point in being a melee in raid x, it is impossible to play.
- What is the point in having 8 souls (trees) if I am forced to play 1 cookie cutter spec.
- Hey I’m a new 50 and was chucked from a party because I don;t have raid gear, is everyone an ahole who plays this game?
– What is th epoint of dungeon x/raid x it takes twice has long and you get the same rewards, no one plays it, must farm MOAR.
- Please remove PA (a sort of progression thing you do at max level that gives small increments to stats and a few skills) it is ridiculous I have to get 50K to be able to raid.
- Please keep PA, I worked hard for it, do not pander to these casuals.
- Why I am punshed as a warrior by only having two roles, give me a healing role.
- Why are warriors always top tier at tanking and DPS, just beause they only have two roles.

and so on.

Judas.5432:

Yeah…..it’s really just not so bad.

You are seriously overreacting and the class is just as viable as it was 2 days ago in both PvE and PvP (it could even be argued that they even strengthened it for PvP so long as you aren’t using a backstab build and expecting to just kill your opponent instantly).

Thief has definitely been at the wrong end of the nerf stick but it’s still a very strong class. I don’t really see what your issue is, honestly, aside from some general animosity.

I very much admit to being frustrated as all heck. It started when they nerfed PW and I found myself kittened in PvE fights I once was able to handle. (LOL, OMG…I’m actually just typing out the word “kitten” now instead of letting the swearing filter do it for me! Too funny!) I don’t know if I would call it “animosity” exactly because that’s a whole other set of connotations. I am no where near the god-like players that seem to inhabit these forums that claim they all breezed through PvE and story lines etc at 3 levels BELOW the mobs and never lost, blah blah blah and my BS meter is going off on occasion. Having gone from being a fairly successful rogue type class player for 15 years or so in both PvE and PvP , I find it dismaying that suddenly in this game I have to be a math major and scrutinize every number and nuance in order to hold my own. That sounds like work, nor play. I crunched numbers for a living. The last thing I want to do is have to do so in a game. It’s even more frustrating when all anyone is really concerned about is PvP and WvW as though PvE’rs simply don’t exist and/or don’t matter.

AS nerf was fine, OP; ur hatred is misguided. This wasn’t a re-do of the PW nerf.

That said, I still very much believe that BS builds need to be more rewarding in pve. IMO, they are by far the most dynamic to use w/ high positional and health threshold dependence for its basic rotation, and costly ini use to enter stealth as well as playing around the revealed debuff, and the stealth-on-demand aspect opens up extra defensive or mid-combat planning options more frequently than w/ the other setups. Not to mention that when solo mobs behave very erratically w/ regards to stealth, and that further throws an wrench in setting up flanks at any given microsecond since you can’t know how mobs will randomly path or face in this game.

But why barely kill one target at a time slightly faster (if done right) than other setups when you can just put on the signet of malice and autoattack cleave everything w/ a Sword mainhand, or stay back and spam clusters at groups of enemies? Oh wait, you have dodge calatrops- oh boy! dodging- such engaging, unique gameplay! snore Yeah, I have more fun KITING MOBS AS A GS WARR than I do playing most of the ‘good’ thief setups for pve, and that’s not counting crushing everything under my heel in melee w/ GS normally and having great burst mobility w/ a S/Horn swap.

I love D/P’s playstyle- I really do. Its one of the few reasons I even glance at my thief on the char select screen anymore, but its just not rewarding in pve for all the limits it has, the setup it takes, and how innately squishy the class is. Shortbow may be good and pretty fun, but I figured out its use well before I needed to look-up any resources on this game and was abusing the hell out of the thing when leveling because it was so safe/good at aoe. I dun want to use the SB that much anymore, even if its destined to be hip-tied as my 2nd weapon swap for anything and everything- been there done that, didn’t roll a thief to stay back and fling arrows, etc etc. What are my other options?

S/P: effective, but boring; feels more like I’m playing a warr in leather, but less interesting.
S/D: more interesting than above, not as effective or versatile, its unique attack still kinda sucks and behaves oddly; pass.
P/P: pretty effective, but quite boring and little to no aoe/cleaves/pierce (bar a weak ricochet trait) and no control outside occasional interrupts. Unload is a cool anim, but using it ad nauseam isn’t cool.
P/D and/or LDB builds: no thanks, I’m not into cond builds and don’t want to make yet another gear set for a build I’m not sure I’ll like anyways.
D/D-BS: the closest analogue I have to D/P, but its terribly squishy since it doesn’t rely on LDB and doesn’t have any blinds- it can cleave w/ dancing dagger spam and has more single target dmg than D/P. Woohoo? Just like w/ D/P, it has a dynamic rotation and setup but just not enough payoff- esp not in a game where aoe/cleaves count for so much in groups and not being a (non-warr/guardian) melee is the simply best way to not get killed as a melee’er.

I guess the thief, my first toon to 80, just isn’t for me. I am too reluctant to stick with non-dagger MH builds, but I just find the others so boring and/or un-thief-like that if I focused on them I’d simply just wonder why I’m not playing a diff class instead.

ANet, gimme a reason to want to play BS-dagger build in pve; until then, my thief will stay in Lion’s Arch as a beachbum and enjoy the ale while his warr, engie, and ele friends go have fun out in the world. I mean, even if the other proffs have weak things (and they all do, like engie flamethrower) at least they’re is still fun/entertaining.

Sylosi.6503:

Okamakiri.8746
Really? What are these “most MMORPGs” where that is the case? I’ve been dying to find an MMO that isn’t ruined by the whiniest demographic of gamers, i.e. PVPers. While I do enjoy occasional PVP, I have always said that tailoring to that demographic is spelling doom to your MMO. They generally carry no loyalty to any brand, demand minimal character investment requirement, scream the loudest over every little thing, and are the first to move on to the next new “shiny” (i.e. their next MMO victim), leaving behind a broken game for PVErs.

Go try Rift, it is game for Pvers, unless they’ve magically woken up, when I played, PvE Raid weapons were far superior to the best you could get in PvP, plus for any class that didn’t get hit much (e.g – rogue playing a marksman) or if you had pocket healer, then also 2-4 bits of PvE raid armour were far superior.

Hence their PvP has bascially died on its kitten (as has the game in general)

As for whining, Pvers just whine about slighlty different things, as we are on Rift some of the many things Pvers endlesly whined about:

That’s it? That’s the “list”? One MMO? And you are obviously complaining about it because it’s not allegedly catering to PvP! ROFL!

flowcyto.5671:

AS nerf was fine, OP; ur hatred is misguided. This wasn’t a re-do of the PW nerf.

Looking for where I said this was a “re-do of the PW nerf”. Nope, never said it. The word “hatred” is a tad overly dramatic don’t you think? :P As for my frustration with the PW nerf, it is well deserved and it’s obvious I don’t stand alone. They nerfed the wrong thing. Period.

mrsrachelm.7618:

Sylosi.6503:

Okamakiri.8746
Really? What are these “most MMORPGs” where that is the case? I’ve been dying to find an MMO that isn’t ruined by the whiniest demographic of gamers, i.e. PVPers. While I do enjoy occasional PVP, I have always said that tailoring to that demographic is spelling doom to your MMO. They generally carry no loyalty to any brand, demand minimal character investment requirement, scream the loudest over every little thing, and are the first to move on to the next new “shiny” (i.e. their next MMO victim), leaving behind a broken game for PVErs.

Go try Rift, it is game for Pvers, unless they’ve magically woken up, when I played, PvE Raid weapons were far superior to the best you could get in PvP, plus for any class that didn’t get hit much (e.g – rogue playing a marksman) or if you had pocket healer, then also 2-4 bits of PvE raid armour were far superior.

Hence their PvP has bascially died on its kitten (as has the game in general)

As for whining, Pvers just whine about slighlty different things, as we are on Rift some of the many things Pvers endlesly whined about:

That’s it? That’s the “list”? One MMO? And you are obviously complaining about it because it’s not allegedly catering to PvP! ROFL!

No dear, that wasn’t the list, that was an example, there is no need for a list, because it is basically most themepark MMOs, because most MMOs focus resources, dev time and eveything else on PvE and PvP comes a poor a second, so take your pick Rift, LOTRO, STO, whatever.

You are living in an alternate reality if you think most themepark MMOs put PvP before PvE, seemsyou are so used to being treated as top priority in Rift, anything else is coming as bit of a shock to you.

Okamakiri.8746:

Absolutely not, because blowing up one mob in 2 seconds and then fighting the rest of the mobs for the next minute in a crippled state without your cooldowns is neither overpowered nor a good strategy for any PVEer. PVE is about sustained DPS, not blowing your load in 2 seconds and being flacid for the next minute.

bwillb.2165:

Considered, and debunked. By the time the one-hit wonder burst builds are ready to go again, mobs have already respawned twice. Plus in the upper levels it’s pretty rare to be able to pull just 1 mob.

Have it ever crossed your minds that I wasn’t specifically referring to the most recent patch which in fact didn’t included nerfs to PvE Thieves because of those “whiny PvP’ers” but the general thesis that PvE gets destroyed because of PvP?

Btw: Any of you have played GW1? Remember when PvE started its nosedive down the gutter? Ironically it was the very same day ANet implemented the PvP/PvE split.

mrsrachelm.7618:

flowcyto.5671:

AS nerf was fine, OP; ur hatred is misguided. This wasn’t a re-do of the PW nerf.

Looking for where I said this was a “re-do of the PW nerf”. Nope, never said it. The word “hatred” is a tad overly dramatic don’t you think? :P As for my frustration with the PW nerf, it is well deserved and it’s obvious I don’t stand alone. They nerfed the wrong thing. Period.

Right, but that was just one nerf that had that sort of marked effect in pve since release (it was dumb, yeah, and I dunno if any reasonable person here would agree that it was the better way to go instead of addressing haste itself). I think ur being a bit quick to jump the gun; the latest changes should actually have given you some confidence in ANet’s ability to balance. Its still too early to tell w/ this game regarding the whole pve vs. pvp thing, and we’ll all have to keep in mind that GW1 was not much a pve game and give ’em some slack for this outing- for now.

flowcyto.5671:

That said, I still very much believe that BS builds need to be more rewarding in pve.

Depends on what you mean by “BS builds”. A PvP-style BS build was completely focused on frontloading lots of damage/effects and getting off one very solid high-damage hit to get your target down fast.

BS as a PvE concept is very good, it is a nice bit of bonus damage for attacking out of stealth. It rewards high damage and high stealth. What it does not (and should not do) is support using it as your primary damage method.

“BS builds need to be more rewarding in PvE” is like saying “Tactical Strike builds need to be rewarding in PvE”. TS is amazing in PvE and I use it often to great effect, but it isn’t a build, it is a skill.

mrsrachelm.7618:

I very much admit to being frustrated as all heck. It started when they nerfed PW and I found myself kittened in PvE fights I once was able to handle. (LOL, OMG…I’m actually just typing out the word “kitten” now instead of letting the swearing filter do it for me! Too funny!) I don’t know if I would call it “animosity” exactly because that’s a whole other set of connotations. I am no where near the god-like players that seem to inhabit these forums that claim they all breezed through PvE and story lines etc at 3 levels BELOW the mobs and never lost, blah blah blah and my BS meter is going off on occasion. Having gone from being a fairly successful rogue type class player for 15 years or so in both PvE and PvP , I find it dismaying that suddenly in this game I have to be a math major and scrutinize every number and nuance in order to hold my own. That sounds like work, nor play. I crunched numbers for a living. The last thing I want to do is have to do so in a game. It’s even more frustrating when all anyone is really concerned about is PvP and WvW as though PvE’rs simply don’t exist and/or don’t matter.

Try shortbow. It doesn’t take god-like play, just 1 – 2 – 4 skills, and caltrops. Combine with dodge and kite for a nice happy time. With a little practice, you can handle most mobs with this.

I set myself up with traits that return endurance on use, give haste and caltrops on dodge, and Thieve’s Guild for an elite so that I can pop a Shadow Refuge and let the enemy aggro my summoned goon squad.

For secondary weapon sets, I like having a dagger off-hand for Cloak & Dagger and either pistol in the main hand for Sneak Attack + Shadow Strike or dagger for Death Blossom bleeds.

There is very little in PvE that a thief cannot handle with this setup. I understand having a favorite build become non-viable can be frustrating but that doesn’t mean there’s no other options. The way I handle PvE is far from the only way but it works pretty kitten well. I solo a lot and fear very little with it.

Btw: Any of you have played GW1? Remember when PvE started its nosedive down the gutter? Ironically it was the very same day ANet implemented the PvP/PvE split.

PvE started its nosedive when they started allowing 7-hero parties. It continued with the impending exodus to GW2 and the shift in focus away from story content and towards farming HoM achievements. The PvP balance split had nothing to do with it. Now, some of the PvE-only skills might have hastened the descent, I’ll give you that, but the splitting of numbers between PvE and PvP have helped the game, not hindered it. PvE and PvP are very different scenarios, and not taking that into account is asinine.

I actually think you make a valid statement here OP, most if not all nerfs to Thief have been due to PvP and PvE takes the hits mostly because didn’t consider how it will influence skill changes there (Look at Pistol Whip).

They have seperated the Guardian shout skill to have a split functionality in PvP and PvE so here goes the first step into flawed skill balancing.

I’m behind you a 100% that it’s kinda of stupid that PvE Thieves have to suffer (Coming from a PvP player).

Btw if I can give you a little advice, you can play WvW which is kind of like PvE but with a little PvP which is pretty fun.

Or roll a Guardian which I did also and really enjoy that atm.

Tulisin.6945:

flowcyto.5671:

That said, I still very much believe that BS builds need to be more rewarding in pve.

Depends on what you mean by “BS builds”. A PvP-style BS build was completely focused on frontloading lots of damage/effects and getting off one very solid high-damage hit to get your target down fast.

BS as a PvE concept is very good, it is a nice bit of bonus damage for attacking out of stealth. It rewards high damage and high stealth. What it does not (and should not do) is support using it as your primary damage method.

‘BS build’ meant a catch-all to distinguish it from condition builds that use LBD bleeds more for D/D.

I think we just disagree on the ‘rewarding’ part. I don’t think it is enough in pve, even if its just a finisher to infrequent stealthing, and I’m not sure we could change each other’s minds on that, but my experience from other classes just told me ‘Hey, this thief guy just isn’t working nearly as well for you; you don’t pvp and are tired of the SB, and don’t see the point of Sword MH and P/P setups since you have a warr; whaddya gonna do?‘. While D/D has other options for offense, and that’s okay, I’m left wanting w/ D/P and BS in general in pve and wondering if our init system and high auto-attack damage is the real culprit (prob is, but what can ya do at this point if that’s the case?).

It sounds like you know how to make D/P work. I’ve tried a few things since the other builds, aside from D/D, just didn’t click w/ me as interesting or very ‘thievy’. I like the powder+leap+BS combo and the thought of getting rewarded for it- its a very cool one and it makes me feel like I’m actually playing a stealthy assassin type class that no other proff gives me the feel of, but that reward just didn’t seem much when dagger auto-attack is so high and much easier (highest BS crit I’ve gotten in Orr, w/o AS, is 5k-ish in Fine zerker gear, AA chains do 1-2k every quarter a second by comparison and don’t take 7-9 init and at least 1.25 secs to setup :/). Have you been able to make it work w/o, say, just chaining shadow shot or AA-ing till 25% HP?

I generally feel like Thieves could use some PvE love, but I mean support/dungeon when I say that, not solo or DE. Honestly, I can’t really see, mathematically, how you could even come up with a build that was so dependent on the +50% from the signet that it’s utterly broken now.

There’s something to be said for maintaining “viability” for different playstyles, which is fine. There’s probably always going to be an “optimal” build/style for every situation. If only one style is “optimal” for almost all situations and all other builds are “not viable,” then you get everyone using a cookie-cutter spec, and that’s something the designers obviously don’t want.

I just don’t see how the signet change (I’m honestly not even sure it’s a nerf, except in PvP) could tip a BS build from “viable” to “not viable.”

I’m always happy when zergy boring 2 second stunlock combo cooldown skill classes get nerfed as that’s usually insane in pvp and garbage in pve, thus people trying to bring it to pve were not helping teams, I am and was happy when heartseeker spam was broken as the skill is pretty much insanely useful vs others like flanking strike (although the latter has been useful lately as boons are spammed…) and right now it’s probably next on the chopping block along with quickness.

but for GODS SAKE, with all these nerfs one can only stop and think

“ok, so the backstabs where annoying, but there’s other classes that are JUST AS annoying, so why are the thieves getting it left right and center”

and what have we gotten back since the live nerfs?

They fixed our disabling shot… lol

Honestly I’d be fine with all this attention to abusive tactics, but for the love of god open up our options while you do it by fixing the RUBBISH traits that we NEVER use, assassins retreat? really? ricochet 5% of the time on pistol? reaaaaally??

our traits are where we were always let down, time to wake up and fix those, and THEN nerf the pigeonhole silly annoying HS spammers to ribbons.
Time to re-create and re-invision the “rogue” style class not nerf it til it’s players realise they’re being nerfpaddled to pieces every patch and with no compensation.

FYI, here’s some math on the change:

You activate the signet: Your base damage for the first hit afterwards is h, and the sum of damage for the next four hits is H. In order for the change to nerf you, we need

1.5h + H > 1.15h + 1.15H
0.35h > 0.15H
2.33h > H

So it would have to be the case that the base damage from your first post-signet strike is 7/3 times the total of your next four strikes, or over 9 times the average damage of your next four strikes. Is that common? I’ve never played a burst build, so I don’t know…

dizzyd.5213:

FYI, here’s some math on the change:

You activate the signet: Your base damage for the first hit afterwards is h, and the sum of damage for the next four hits is H. In order for the change to nerf you, we need

1.5h + H > 1.15h + 1.15H
0.35h > 0.15H
2.33h > H

So it would have to be the case that the base damage from your first post-signet strike is 7/3 times the total of your next four strikes, or over 9 times the average damage of your next four strikes. Is that common? I’ve never played a burst build, so I don’t know…

Depends on who you ask. If you ask the people who were whining for a nerf to the build, then the single attack backstab does about 20x the damage of an individual other attack, or about 5x the next four total. Their numbers were complete lunacy, mind you, but hey, if this change makes them happy, who am I to disagree.