Guild Wars 2

Since we are on our 5th 4th rifle idea post-HoT I think it would be a good idea to collect them all into one thread and discuss why or why not this should be the next elite spec anet should focus on making. Here are the ideas posted so far:
Mine – The Specialist
Auesis’ – The Stalker
CIndeR’s – Sniper
LastLetter’s – Sabotager (Saboteur?) Axe spec :I
Joshiek – Shadow Sniper

InB4longrangebackstabOP I know within the first 5 comments someone is going to scream OP at the thought of giving thieves a long ranged weapon without providing any legitimate reason why. So to start off this discussion I am going to explain why the usual poorly argued counterpoints are poor.

1.) Having a hard-hitting ranged attack would be broken on this profession!

First off ([True Shot] [Kill Shot] [Rapid Fire]) all of these are long range and deal more damage than a backstab. If anet is completely okay with these existing, then your fears are unwarranted.

And secondly, there are such things as costs which can be increased to provide more risk to using a high reward skill. You can give it a high initiative cost that would make it unspammable. You could make it telegraphed to the point it becomes punishable to only the most unaware and terrible players. hell, even the more decent Snipes suggested have high costs and obvious telegraphing WITH a root.

It’d be like every other long ranged death attack this game has, you deserve it if you die to it because it is just that easy to miss with them. Take your failure like any decent player and pay attention next time.

The only real reason why this argument would matter is if you are a baddie who falls to long range bursts because you are too busy with your face on the keyboard to notice a 7s chargeup pointing right at you.

2.) Thief is a melee class.

Annnnnnd who dictated that? Is there any mandate that states thief shall remain a melee class? Any laws? Official statements from Arenanet? No. Nothing.

This is an excuse to keep an evasive profession in melee distance so bad players can hit them more often. Same reason why shortbow and pistol was nerfed to hell. “They keep running away with Disabling Shot, Anet! Nerf it!” Since around 2013 our only two ranged weapons remain effective only around melee distance.

But look here! Guard used to be considered a “melee only” class because their only ranged weapon was crap. Look what anet decided to do. Now we really are the only profession without long ranged.

The melee only philosophy wouldn’t be so bad if thief didn’t have such a hard time in melee. So why keep a long ranged weapon from them? Because keyboard-slapping terribads don’t want to die in melee AND ranged combat, of course! I jest…

There is more to this argument than everyone shows. It is an outright disservice to the game to suggest something remain in melee distance when almost everyone is safely shooting people to death. Its like Blops 2 where everyone and their dog was running around with the same MP7/Rapid Fire/Lightweight/Scavenger turning the game into “who can put their wall of bullets up first”. But if you truely think keeping an underperforming profession in one mode of combat is a good idea, I hope to god you don’t get into design. lol

3.) Long ranged is boring/cheese.

And? Melee erredee is boring and filled with cheese too. The game is filled with cheese and hardly anyone complains as they play it. And why? That isn’t the point of PvP. The point is to do well and have fun.

“Then why not go and play ranger or DH?” Sure. Let me go play someone else’s way and reinforce the meta at the same time! You know me. I just love supporting poor balance and design. smh

No the point here, like the last iteration of rifle threads, is to give thief more of a presence in pvp. The viability of a profession and the diversity of builds and mechanics is but a few things that contribute towards the amount of fun one can have in a competitive environment. Now fun might be a relative quality, but a majority of the thief community is realizing that thief isn’t fun in pvp mostly because they are not needed. That’s why the community is leaking thief mains!

4.) I can’t believe this! You are just so wrong on so many levels that I am not going to bother typing anymore than this sentence!

Your contribution to this thread is greatly appreciated! Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Or let it. I don’t care. t(^w^t )

And if you really are not going to discuss please don’t comment. Thank you.

Rifle on thief would mean that ANet have to give us a 1200+ range weapon, and they obviously feel that would be somehow unfair… Because… Stuff

So your crusade for justifying rifle thief continues.

The first point is still a real problem, no matter how hard you try to downplay it.

How is it a real problem? Enlighten us.

Zaerah.1630:

So your crusade for justifying rifle thief continues.

The first point is still a real problem, no matter how hard you try to downplay it.

I agree with the OP on this point… I don’t see how it would be a “real problem” at all. All they would have to do is give the Rifle ZERO mobility options, so you would be forced to take SB as your secondary for genuine mobility, leaving you vulnerable to melee. You could take D/P as secondary, but you’d still be lacking in mobility.

Nope, there’s no solid reason why a 1200 ranged weapon shouldn’t be an option for Thief.

Zaerah.1630:

So your crusade for justifying rifle thief continues.

The first point is still a real problem, no matter how hard you try to downplay it.

No i dont think so

Engi in particular can nuke you from range and have godly stealth and reveal.
Ranger ,and Dh with traps same thing alot of stealth.
Mes was there long time ago and will be

Do tey have less mobility ?Well just a lil bit…

Besides ther is so much reflect around it wont do much good to a thief having more range.
It would be nice for change and diversity

One thing i can foresee if we do have a huge dmg ranged attack is people crying that it is OP simply because we can do it from stealth, which leads to the ‘no counterplay’ argument.

Maybe if it produces a target on top of the target’s head (only from stealth), it might be viewed as more balanced, but that will reduce it to ‘cheese build’ status, similar to gunflame/killshot warriors.

I don’t know, unless it also has a shadowstep on one of it’s weapon skill *cough**sb5**cough*, maybe it can replace Shortbow as our secondary weapon?

One problem about thief it’s our dependence on Shortbow. Maybe make Rifle replace Sb instead of our melee weapon sets?

Maybe just make steal a ground targetable (which may make steal harder to use), small AOE shadowstep with all the effects of steal (Aoe boonstrip, daze and mug pls?) as the new profession mechanic, with reduced cooldown on steal so that we can actually drop Shortbow as our default secondary weapon.
That way we can have both strong melee and ranged options at the same time without sacrificing too much mobility.

much as we may have disagreed in the past, I’d agree that some decent range would be nice on thief. and now that there’s no reason to assume any other weapon to be more likely, I’d be interested to see all the ways this could be implemented.

Anything can be balanced properly with telegraphs. There’s no problem with any concept as long as you execute it right.

Whether it’s Rifle, Longbow, or something else, it doesn’t matter. The simple truth is that this is the only profession that lacks good mid-to-long range options, and depending on how the game evolves that will hamper the profession more and more. On the other hand, if everything else is nerfed in to oblivion it might not be a problem at all.

yolo swaggins.2570:

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1.) Having a hard-hitting ranged attack would be broken on this profession!

First off ([True Shot] [Kill Shot] [Rapid Fire]) all of these are long range and deal more damage than a backstab. If anet is completely okay with these existing, then your fears are unwarranted.

And secondly, there are such things as costs which can be increased to provide more risk to using a high reward skill. You can give it a high initiative cost that would make it unspammable. You could make it telegraphed to the point it becomes punishable to only the most unaware and terrible players. hell, even the more decent Snipes suggested have high costs and obvious telegraphing WITH a root.

It’d be like every other long ranged death attack this game has, you deserve it if you die to it because it is just that easy to miss with them. Take your failure like any decent player and pay attention next time.

The only real reason why this argument would matter is if you are a baddie who falls to long range bursts because you are too busy with your face on the keyboard to notice a 7s chargeup pointing right at you.

The only way that these long range charging skills will be acceptable if it gives a better visual cues. Just like the sniper mobs in HoT, the target icon on your head is a good way of showing that you are being sniped. You can’t possible pay attention to every little details especially if it is coming from 1200-1500 range.

However, the main issue here is not really the damage, rather mobility. I can respond just fine against DH, War, and Ranger but a sniping Thief is different. If the Thief snipe me from 1200 range, there is no way to catch up on them because of their mobility — especially against shadowstep skills.

Also just as how annoying it is that Ranger has a stealth on their longbow, it will be more annoying if Thief has a sniping skill and sniping stealth skill.

Because of these, the Thief’s damage will have to be mediocre to balance all the Thief’s escape utilities since you cannot balance the weapon skills on cooldowns, which Thief doesn’t have, or initiative cost.

Increasing initiative cost on weapon skills is not a solution because a high damage skill would have to require a long cool down. Since we have a shared initiative, the cost of each weapon skill will have to cost 8-10 initiatives — compare to War’s Kill shot and Ranger’s Rapid Fire (DH Trueshot is out of whack and outright broken). With that kind of cost, the weapon set will be unusable. So the only solution is to lower the cost and at the same time lowering the damage — it’s really the only way.

So in the end, we’ll get a 1200-1500 range mediocre damage weapon. Keeping the damage high while the cost is low for the Thief will be indeed broken.

I think the Sniper is a really neat elite spec idea. It makes the most sense – more sense than Daredevil did.

Personally, I would rather see a greatsword-wielding Blademaster elite spec, focused on having lots of shadowsteps, unblockability, combo attacks, and distortion, but I think the Sniper would be a finer addition to the class for the sake of diversity.

Unfortunately, the Sniper does face the problem that its damage output might be mediocre, as you are still virtually required to take shortbow, and the rifle’s damage will certainly not be as high as the dagger or staff – if it was, that would be poor balance for obvious reasons.

If the rifle had a new sb5 on it, however, it would definitely change things and hopefully allow the class to keep up with the power creep.

I loved my smuggler (thief class) in SWTOR, he used a sniper gun (long range).

Elyndis.2130:

I think the Sniper is a really neat elite spec idea. It makes the most sense – more sense than Daredevil did.

Personally, I would rather see a greatsword-wielding Blademaster elite spec, focused on having lots of shadowsteps, unblockability, combo attacks, and distortion, but I think the Sniper would be a finer addition to the class for the sake of diversity.

Unfortunately, the Sniper does face the problem that its damage output might be mediocre, as you are still virtually required to take shortbow, and the rifle’s damage will certainly not be as high as the dagger or staff – if it was, that would be poor balance for obvious reasons.

If the rifle had a new sb5 on it, however, it would definitely change things and hopefully allow the class to keep up with the power creep.

but then shortbow would be more or less useless, which isn’t a good thing.

it’d be nice if we could have nice things without rendering half our class obsolete, but I guess until we get some proper balance, that’s how it’s going to be.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

yolo swaggins.2570:

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1.) Having a hard-hitting ranged attack would be broken on this profession!

First off ([True Shot] [Kill Shot] [Rapid Fire]) all of these are long range and deal more damage than a backstab. If anet is completely okay with these existing, then your fears are unwarranted.

And secondly, there are such things as costs which can be increased to provide more risk to using a high reward skill. You can give it a high initiative cost that would make it unspammable. You could make it telegraphed to the point it becomes punishable to only the most unaware and terrible players. hell, even the more decent Snipes suggested have high costs and obvious telegraphing WITH a root.

It’d be like every other long ranged death attack this game has, you deserve it if you die to it because it is just that easy to miss with them. Take your failure like any decent player and pay attention next time.

The only real reason why this argument would matter is if you are a baddie who falls to long range bursts because you are too busy with your face on the keyboard to notice a 7s chargeup pointing right at you.

The only way that these long range charging skills will be acceptable if it gives a better visual cues. Just like the sniper mobs in HoT, the target icon on your head is a good way of showing that you are being sniped. You can’t possible pay attention to every little details especially if it is coming from 1200-1500 range.

However, the main issue here is not really the damage, rather mobility. I can respond just fine against DH, War, and Ranger but a sniping Thief is different. If the Thief snipe me from 1200 range, there is no way to catch up on them because of their mobility — especially against shadowstep skills.

Also just as how annoying it is that Ranger has a stealth on their longbow, it will be more annoying if Thief has a sniping skill and sniping stealth skill.

Because of these, the Thief’s damage will have to be mediocre to balance all the Thief’s escape utilities since you cannot balance the weapon skills on cooldowns, which Thief doesn’t have, or initiative cost.

Increasing initiative cost on weapon skills is not a solution because a high damage skill would have to require a long cool down. Since we have a shared initiative, the cost of each weapon skill will have to cost 8-10 initiatives — compare to War’s Kill shot and Ranger’s Rapid Fire (DH Trueshot is out of whack and outright broken). With that kind of cost, the weapon set will be unusable. So the only solution is to lower the cost and at the same time lowering the damage — it’s really the only way.

So in the end, we’ll get a 1200-1500 range mediocre damage weapon. Keeping the damage high while the cost is low for the Thief will be indeed broken.

^ Pretty much all of this..

@ Vincent This is where I disagree with you. These long ranged charged shots already have enough telegraph. What you are suggesting is making a skill which is supposed to be telegraphed and bursty into a super-obvious “hit dodge now” attack. That kind of treatment should be reserved for attacks that will outright kill you in one shot.

Secondly, what you propose seriously will negate most of thief’s mobility with one use, hit or not. It already eats the entire bar and so there will be nothing to run away with.

Instead of putting ludicrous costs on a True Shot equivalent, you can actually engineer a weakness into the weaponset by simply making it bad at close range utility and mobility. This will force the thief to choose melee or SB for the second weaponset. One lacks mobility, the other lacks melee ranged capability. Assuming the rifle’s design is done correctly, melee range pressure will most likely force the thief into switching to the other weaponsets. From there, you can weigh and balance how much damage the skill can do based on the cost it has.

As an example, I liked how Zack designed his rifle burst skill. While it is a powerful high cost skill, it does allow increased effectiveness at the cost of a longer charge and more initiative. This is more balanced imho especially since the initiative mechanic is also considered here. If you were to fully charge it with trickery equipped, it would be the longest ranged attack in the game. But the costs to achieve such a feat would justify it. Consider the costs vs. the reward:

• Must have Trickery and Specialist equipped. (high cost)
• Use 15 initiative; 7 for simply activating, 8 for charging. (high cost)
• Survive a root of 8 seconds. (risk)
• Avoid CC while rooted. (risk)
• Projectile must not be dodged, obstructed or reflected; chance for wasted costs. (high risk)
  ———————————-
• Projectile deals heavy damage to a target. (high reward)
• Target heavily damaged from a safe distance (~3k in my version). (reward)

If now the reward might be insane but so are the costs and risk. If you really want to balance, you need to be thinking about “mana in to power out”. More risk, more reward.

With this example, if you were to just double tap 5 all you’ll get is a regular burst skill that isn’t spammable without trickery. But at maximum charge, it is as close to a death trap as you can get because anything can happen in 8 seconds. I think the cost is high enough for the reward demanded.

In fact, I don’t even expect rifle to be used in sPvP. Like, the only way to effectively pull off a such an attack is to pop shadow refuge before you channel and even then you are not guaranteed a kill because the design is more about range than damage.

Thief’s main mechanic is steal. Steal actually forces you to engage in close combat. Unless they change steal to disengage from enemy (Stun breaker ?) from the Elite specialization trait it doesnt make any sense to give us more ranged stuff.
Not to mention scrapper and chronomancer chronocancer can have perma reflect on and that scrapper has more mobility than thief does since maps are so small he can swoosh his hammer and instantly catch you ect… Yet only " omg op mobility " thief has is being abble to teleport on platforms with shortbow which is our only reliable way to survive since stealth is dead.

“Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

— GuildWars2.com Thief

“Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies. They have an affinity for setting traps and using venom. As an adventurer profession, thieves wear medium armor.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief

BRING BACK STEALTH ALIVE FOR GOD SAKE

yolo swaggins.2570:

As an example, I liked how Zack designed his rifle burst skill.

Wait, who? Where ? You never mentionned him or his ideas as far as I can see :p

Also, Shadow Refuge makes any long channel not that long, not that threatening and for sure, not that telegraphed. Let’s not even mention the possibilities to Shadow Step from out of hiding at the split second before the shot.

yolo swaggins.2570:

@ Vincent This is where I disagree with you. These long ranged charged shots already have enough telegraph. What you are suggesting is making a skill which is supposed to be telegraphed and bursty into a super-obvious “hit dodge now” attack. That kind of treatment should be reserved for attacks that will outright kill you in one shot.

Even if they hit dodge and evaded the attack, that weapon skill can be used again. This is the major difference from other skills; our skills doesn’t really go on cooldown as long as we have enough initiative to pay for the cost.

Also, with rifle, it is just natural to carry traps and by doing so, it’s natural to also take the Trapper Runes. With this build, the telegraph you want will be completely overcome with stealth while the telegraph I’m suggesting is in line with the HoT’s sniper mob.

Secondly, what you propose seriously will negate most of thief’s mobility with one use, hit or not. It already eats the entire bar and so there will be nothing to run away with.

That’s one of my points. Having a high cost is not a good thing because it would render the weapon set useless; and at the same time, lowering the cost means lowering the damage so we’ll end up with a long range mediocre damage weapon.

Instead of putting ludicrous costs on a True Shot equivalent,

True shot is a bad example because it’s a broken skill. No weapon skill with 4 sec CD should deal that much damage.

…you can actually engineer a weakness into the weaponset by simply making it bad at close range utility and mobility. This will force the thief to choose melee or SB for the second weaponset. One lacks mobility, the other lacks melee ranged capability. Assuming the rifle’s design is done correctly, melee range pressure will most likely force the thief into switching to the other weaponsets. From there, you can weigh and balance how much damage the skill can do based on the cost it has.

Not necessarily. If the Thief employ traps and trapper rune, plus fleet to shadows plus swiftness, shadow step, dodge/withdraw…nobody will ever get into their melee range. The traps will be enough to secure an escape.

Also one of the suggested build has a skill that the Thief can use in melee and it’s pretty good, maybe too good.

Smokescale Sac- Throw a smokescale sac at your feet, making a smoke field that you evade attacks in. When in this field, steal has a very short cool down. Inflict revealed on yourself. (a small time shorter than the end of the smokefield). Breaks Stun.

Not to mention the skill you/Zack is proposing; parry/kidney/knee/sp/cs

With these kinds of skills, there’s no such thing as melee pressure.

As an example, I liked how Zack designed his rifle burst skill… But the costs to achieve such a feat would justify it. Consider the costs vs. the reward:

Why use the snipe skill if I already have a better mobile skill called Drill Shot and an awesome anti-melee skill (parry/kidney/etc) that are cost effective?

Using the snipe for 7 initiative is never a good thing. That cost is simply unaffordable. I can use a better cost effective weapon set with similar damage potential. The only advantage of this skill is the range, but for that cost, it’s not worth it.

This goes back to my other point. In order to balance this skill so that it is affordable is for the damage to be reduced, which means, it has to be mediocre. That’s why I’ve mentioned that increasing the initiative cost will render the whole weapon set unusable.

So I invested all my initiatives on the shot and a Guardian with his aegis up crossed the line of fire and negated the shot…that wouldn’t feel right.

(list of cost/risk)
———————————-
(list of reward))

Not worth it. The cost and the risk is too high for a skill that can be mitigated or negated. With that much initiatives, I can deal so much more damage some other ways.

If now the reward might be insane but so are the costs and risk. If you really want to balance, you need to be thinking about “mana in to power out”. More risk, more reward.

I’m looking at it by asking what can I get for each of my initiatives. Investing 7 initiatives without any return is not a good investment.

Let’s use an example. The snipe improves every second. If my target moved out of range before the 1s mark, I’ll get an error for target begin out of range. It’s a waste of initiatives.

With this example, if you were to just double tap 5 all you’ll get is a regular burst skill…

That damage per initiative is not worth it. 7 initiatives for a damage weaker than Unload. In fact, Drill Shot is better damage per initiative.

In fact, I don’t even expect rifle to be used in sPvP. Like, the only way to effectively pull off a such an attack is to pop shadow refuge before you channel and even then you are not guaranteed a kill because the design is more about range than damage.

Then it’s not usable just like I said since the cost is paid for more range than damage. With initiatives, this is not a good investment. If these skills are cooldown based, then it might work.

And this posed another problem that I’ve pointed out; mobility. With a skill like snipe, the Thief can damage someone at long range and there’s no way to get to them due to the range of the attack and their mobility.

Gray.9041:

but then shortbow would be more or less useless, which isn’t a good thing.

it’d be nice if we could have nice things without rendering half our class obsolete, but I guess until we get some proper balance, that’s how it’s going to be.

Aye, shortbow would have to be replaced by rifle in order to give the class a decent damage option through staff or dagger. Rifle/shortbow would just suck, likely.

Honestly, I would totally be willing to trade sb5 for more survivability and stealth for the class overall. It feels like sb5 is the reason why thieves are balanced to be weak duellists.

The melee stealth skill and the replacement of Zack’s mobility skill with the melee combo was my idea. Just to let you know.

Also damage and risk/reward can be balanced in this thread. If you feel a skill is good but needs tweaking then by all mean post your ideas, Vincent.

yolo swaggins.2570:

The melee stealth skill and the replacement of Zack’s mobility skill with the melee combo was my idea. Just to let you know.

Also damage and risk/reward can be balanced in this thread. If you feel a skill is good but needs tweaking then by all mean post your ideas, Vincent.

I’m sorry but I don’t see Rifle will even work on Thief. I’m more of a GS and x/F camper. GS has a lot of potential for DPS as Infiltrators and Focus can open a path for Thief to become an Arcane Thief. Long range and Steal just feels awkward and counter intuitive.

When I think of Thief with a Rifle, I think of Blinding Power + Killshot. :/

That’s my argument. Rifle would probably have to be more of a Support/Utility Weapon in order for people to mot call OP

If it kills them, it’s OP. So that is kind of a moot point.

Wait, why is the saboteur on here? its an axe elite specialization.

lol I just realized that. I’ll leave it up here just incase someone gets ideas for a different thread.

I feel strongly that Thief is pretty well dead and won’t be fixed, so I don’t really see the point of discussing the merits of a long range attack.

HOWEVER!
I do think that, stylistically, there’s something fun you can do with a rifle that I don’t think has been done with any weapon in the game yet.
A hybrid melee-ranged weapon.
A very fast, very light hitting melee chain that causes vulnerability in melee range… but simultaneously fires basic, damage-dealing projectiles. If you’re in close, you stack vuln. If you’re far away, you do respectable damage spread across a large number of light hits at medium range.
You could extend this split attack philosophy to every attack on the bar, as well.
For example: A projectile attack that causes a cleaving knockdown in melee range, but also fires a projectile that dazes for a half second. Using that kind of projectile attack on someone already knocked down may trigger runes or something, but otherwise isn’t especially good—except that it makes the attack good at stripping Stability, and functional at multiple ranges.

Basically, I’m suggesting that the rifle could become the ultimate switch-hitter’s weapon.
It’s melee! It’s ranged! It’s control! It strips boons!
It does everything at a medium level, so it may not be the best at any one thing… but you have a million options, and if you use them in a clever way, you can use what the enemy is weak to, on the fly.

Heck, forget the rifles—this idea of a mixed melee-and-ranged attack weapon might even be possible for pistols. Rework pistols to have multiple fun projectiles as above, and have it be a build option for the profession: “Pistol shots also perform a melee attack.”
We’ve seen with the Mesmer and Necromancer that adding a little ‘menu’ of nice new things works well for design, so this would let you have the pistols serve as a basic DPS/disabling weapon, and have a new build option. If you added it to an elite spec, you could even bring back the beloved Ricochet (and even use that cool new tech that makes the bounces only work in a limited arc, so it looks more like a ricochet shot and reduces the randomness that was disliked in the first place.)
If you made them both the same tier, you would be able to choose between being an all-range shooter or being a gunslinger who spreads the disabling attacks around.

Well… Thieves can’t have nice things though.
So it’s not like any of the good ideas in any of the linked threads will happen. My ideas won’t happen, your ideas won’t happen.
I’m pretty sure Arenanet hates Thief players.

If the Thief ever receives with an E-Spec a Rifle (I hope this will never be the case, as a Longbow would be the far better more flavorful Weapon as a 1200 Range Weapon), then this would be my concept for this:

Elite-Specialization: The Gunslinger

Rifle Skills

Auto Attack:
Smokegas Shot > Gunblade > Infernal Blast
Shoot a poisonous Smokegas Bullet that leaves a blinding Smoke Trail behind.
Follow by a leaping Gunblade Attack that will stealth you.
Finishes the 3part Auto Attack with Infernal Blast by igniting the Smokegas around your for with a fiery slash with your Rifle to the body of your foe, causign an explosing reaction, that will send your foe flying with stacks of Burning
The Auto Atack Chain reloads your Bullets by +1

Stealth Attack:
Heart Shot
A shot direct to the heart, causing high stacks of bleeding and stun.

2) Ricochet Shot – Uses 1 Bullet
Shoot at a target. The Bullet will ricochet from your target to maximum 3 nearby targets and whenever the bullet ricochest to a next target, the dealt damage will increase and you regain for every hit target some Endurance back.
Cripples the target, that gets hit by the third time ricocheting bullet.

3) Slothhunter Shot – Uses 2 Bullets
Deals Damage to foes, can interrupt them and lets them suffer on Vulnerability when the enemy got interrupted also. Deals Double the Damage and is 100% critical, if the attack hits not moving target or one that is affected by soft crowd control conditions like chill, cripple, immobilization or fear

4) Decouraging Crossfire – Uses 3 Bullets
Enemies hit with Decouraging Crossfire will lose 2 Boons. When this Attack hits someone that was under 50% health, then will lose all nearby allies to that target also 2 Boons. Heals you and your nearby Allies for every removed Boon and lets you and your nearby allies receive per removed Boon self the Boon Resistance for 3 seconds per removed Enemy Boons

5) Wild Roulette – Uses all bullets that you have currently and varies the Skill based on the amount of used up Bullets

A class mechanic based skill that can give you everytime used a different effect based on how many “Bullets” you have left over to load your Rifle to change the Special Effects of your Rifle Skills

Loaded with 1 Bullet = Incinerating Shot = Shoot a strong blast of fire, that will pierce through all targets in line of sight and burn them.

Loaded with 2 Bullets = Twilighteous Ambush = Shoot two bullets at a target, the first shot weakness, the second deals blindness and high damage that ignores toughness of the target if it has more than 2 conditions.

Loaded with 3 Bullets = Trail Blazer = Shoot 3 very high explosive nitroglycerin bullets at your targets ground which will cause at that spot 3 seconds later a groundshaking explosion that will damage all targets that stood at that moment near that spot, launch them up and causes 5 stacks of confusion from not knowing from where that explosion came from out of a sudden.

Loaded with 4 Bullets = School of Elements = Shoot four bullets in a cone in front of you, where each bullet causes a different elementary condition. The first chills, the second burns, the third blinds and the fourth petrifies.

Loaded with 5 Bullets = Overloader = Load your gun to perform a super overcharged shot that will damage to all targets in line of sight, launching you away from your target from the massive backfire this attack causes. Deals 100% critical damage and causes Torment, Weakness and Vulnerability to all hit targets

Loaded with 6 Bullets = Staccatto = Shoot quickly at your target 6 bullets that will consecutively deal each time more damage than the last bullet and cause with each bullet also Bleedings and Vulnerability, while also each bullet has a chance to cause Daze too.

Class Mechanic

=The Bullet System=

The Initiative System will transform itself while using a Rifle or Dual Pistols into a Bullet Design System, where all of your Rifle Skills will cost instead of Initiative you Bullets of your Round.
When playing a Gunslinger-Thief Elite Specialization with Dual Pistols, this means, you will use then different Pistol Skills. Means, this Elite-Specialization will not give you only new Rifle Skillls, it will change also your Dual Pistol Skills from the Initiative System Skills to the Bullet System Skills. But this will work only with dual wielding Pistols.
Using other Main or Offhand Weapons with Pistols won’t work, as a part of your Weapon Skills will still be Initiative Skills and whenever you use a Initiative based Weapon, the Game will priorize the Initiative System over the Bullet System as the Bullet System is only an inferious Sub Form of Initiative specialized on Firearms only.
You will have maximum 12 Bullets.
With 12 Bullets in your Round this means for a Skill like Wild Roulette, that you shpould use this skill first best only, when you have only maximum 6 Bullets left, otherwise you’d waste Bullets.

The Bullet System is designed around the idea of deencouraging spammy playstyle and encouraging more smart and skill/thoughtful playstyle by using the skills more wisely, as the Bullet System unlike the Initiative System won’t automatically regenerate.
Howeve,r if you use skillfully the mechanics that can lead to regain Bullets, you can make it that way a bit more burst spammy naturally, when you are good at reloading your Bullets right in time.
Under the Bullet System you regain Bullets only from the Auto Attack and from using certain gameplay mechanics like Utility Skills or Trait Effects, that let you in certain situations regain Bullets, so it will automaticalyl lead you into the situation, where you don’t want to spam too fast your skills, but rather use your skills skillfully to make best use of your ressources. Therefore the Skills are naturally more effect- and powerful than the spammy initiative skills and more likely will hit also always more than just only 1-2 targets

Utility Skills
Preparations
Preparations are a new Utility Skill type for the gunslinger that resolve around the Bullet System by preparing your attacks with Special Bullets that affect your Weapon Skills and can be used also to regain Bullets for your Round by reloading your firearms through the prepared Special Bullets that you add to your Round by using the Preparations. By consuming the Special prepared Bullets through using the Weapon SKills, the prepared Effects wil automatically added to the used Weapon Skill.

Healing Skill

Desperado’s Vendetta
Prepare your Rifle/Dual Pistols Round by reloading it with 3 Desperado Bullets and heal yourself. Weapon Skilsl that consume one of those Desperado Bullets or more will heal you and your nearby allies based on a percentual part of the Damage dealt with the Weapon Skill and remove a Condition from you by giving that condition to the hit target(s)

Utility Skills

Edge of Extinction
Prepare your Rifle/Dual Pistols Round by reloading it/them with an Extinction Bullet.
If this Bullet gets shot it adds the Effect of "Deal Weapon Skill Effect to all nearby targets of the same type.
A for example if you attack with Ricochet Shot a Grawl and the skill cripples that Grawl, all other nearby Grawls will also get crippled and receive the damage too.

Expert Focus
Prepare yourself and reload your Rifle/Dual Pistols Round with a Focused Bullet.
If this Bullet gets shot, it grants you and your nearby allies Fury, Quickness and Resistance and makes the Weapon Skill that got used with it unblockable.

Punishment
Prepare yourself and reload your Rifle/Dual Pistols Round with two Punishment Bullets.
If these Bullets get shot, then they will make the used Weapon Skills steal a Boon that you and all your nearby Allies will receive, while the Enemy that had the Boon earlier receives from the Weapon Skil used additionally also the Boons counter Condition.
Example. You use Ricochet Shot against a Target, while consuming a Punishment Bullet from the two that you gained to your Bullet Round, that target had Regeneration. Hittign the target lets you steal the Regeneration and share it with your allies.
Ricochet Shot will cause the target then after the steal to receive additionally a stack of Bleeding which is the Counter Condition to the stolen Regeneration.

Fragmentation
Prepare yourself and reload your Rifle/Dual Pistols Round with a Fragment Bullet.
If this Bullet gets shot with your Weapon Skills, the Shots will splinter on impact, causing damage and multiple Bleeding Stacks to all near nearbyenemies around your target that got hit by your Weapon Skill.

Elite Skill

Unlimited Ammonition
Prepare yourself with Ammonition to the Bones, refilling your Bullets your to Maximum and lettign it for the next 10 seconds not become lesser, giving you unlimited ammonition in which you can burst your Firearm Skills like crazy all out like a madman. When you use this skill, it will recharge also the Healing Skills and grants Alacrity for your nearby Allies, as they get motivated by your furious rampage to follow your example and mobilize their last reserves getting practically a second wind.
The Elite Skill will remove any previous Preparation Effects that were used before.

So far so good. Next Postign the Trait Line an the Traits

I’d prefer longbow =/ Sorry to be that odd ball. I don’t want rifle, its loud and noisy. Pistols are already like that =P

Traitline

Gunslinger

Minor Adept:

Gunner’s Precision
Unlocks for you Gunslinger Traits and Utility Skills, the Bullet System and the Ability to use Rifles as also gaining new Gunslinger Pistol Skills, while using Dual Pistols.
Increases the Maximum Range of all your ranged Weapons by +300

Major Adept:

Firearm Mastery
Gain Precicision based percentually on your Power while wielding a Rifle, Dual Pistols or a Harpoon Gun. Your Attacks with Skills from these Weapons will pierce the targets and will hit also enemies behind them if the Skills don’t already pierce targets.

Power of Ineartia
Gain Stacks of Might when you perform a Dodge Roll

Ricochet Master
Your ranged attacks with Rifles and Dual Pistols have now a chance to ricochet from targets. Trick Shot from Shortbow will bounce from targets one time more now and steal Boons, if a bounced off Arrow hits the same target again now.

Minor Master:

Eagle Eyes
Increases the Maximum Duration of Fury for you by 20% and enables you to see for a short moment stealthed enemies, if you use a preparation.

Major Master:

Revengeful Ammonition
Gain Retaliation whenever you use a Weapon Skill that consumed a prepared Bullet.
Increases Retaliation Durations on you by 20% Your preparations recharge 20% faster.

Armorbreaker Ammonition
Increases your dealt damage with Rifles, Pistols and Harpoon Guns by 10%
Your attacks have now a chance to cause Vulnerability and Vulnerability caused by you is more intense as it will increase dealt damage not by 1% per stack, but instead by 2% per Stack.

Antitoxin Spray Ammonition
Your Bullets are infused now with Antitoxin Spray causing when using your Preparations small Antitoxin Smoke Clouds which will cure you from Poison, Torment, Weakness and Confusion, when you or your allies run through them, while they are there for like 5 seconds.

Minor Grandmaster:

Fluid Shots
Your Auto Attack Rotation grants now +1 more reloaded Bullet and you deal +10% more damage, while your Endurance isn’t full, while using any kind of firearms or shortbows.

Major Grandmaster:

Desperado’s Revenge
Increases the Efficiency of Desperado’s Vendetta and lets critical hits with ranged weapons leech health from your target based on a percentage of your dealt damage.

Suppressing Staccato
Attacks from you cause Confusion and Torment when performing Staccatto with a Rifle from using Wild Roulette additionally to the Bleeding and Vulnerability.

Sniper’s Reputation
Gain all Boons whenever you kill something from 1200+ range with your Rifle.
Gain Stealth and Health on Kill of something.

Orpheal.8263:

If the Thief ever receives with an E-Spec a Rifle (I hope this will never be the case, as a Longbow would be the far better more flavorful Weapon as a 1200 Range Weapon), then this would be my concept for this:

…

Altogether, way too complicated and inelegant. It doesn’t fit design paradigms as they currently are.

Basically, there’s got to be some simplicity—that means any changes made have to be clever, not drastic.

Some of you still doesn’t learn how to make an elite, first you must shave the said Traitline lets say DeadlyArt and then demand.

Astral form with new set of astral weapon skill plus 10stack vulnerability tools which can also reveal hidden opponent, some 10sec Timespacewarp Elite with some improvised backstab armor piercing while stealth please. while the numbers and damage is always negotiable to prevent frustration.

Give thiefs a sling 1200 range

- #2 whirl /reflects
– #3 aoe daze
– #4 aoe stealth
– #5 block heal

-Axe
– #2 axe spin with gap close for massive aoe dmg
– #3 block with stability and reposte

Granades 1200 range

- #2 slow /quckness
– #3resisatnce/ knock back
– #4 Aoe fire field /might
– #5 evade /smoke field/protection

Christmass time i can make my wishes for that juicy staff every1 have…

I dont see why thief cant get rifle when i can hammer smash CoR on rev, which hurts in pvewvwland with potential twoshots. It is also a ground attack so it cant be reflected, has 1200 range on 5 targets, on 2 sec cd. Often such builds relay on the fury trait, giving the rev over 90% crit rate. I am fine with how that ability works, also considering different class mechanics.

I dont see why any implementation of rifle would be wrong, it doesnt have to be a sniper-one hit KO.

Yes, the high damage skill could also be split in two parts.
First a warning shot/weaker shot followed by a big hitter, room for counterplay right there.

Forgot mine: mastermind

thunderfall.8095:

Forgot mine: mastermind

Link?

I just dont understand why thief cant get a 1200 range weapon, when rev. or herald can hit u with a """"hammer"""" from that distance, (with aoe knock downs, aoe with teleporting+evade, and aoe in a 1200 line with 3 dif. hits).