Thief Spec Idea: The Liberator

Thief Spec Idea: The Liberator

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Posted by: WEXXES.2378

WEXXES.2378

Just a random, bad idea I had trying to tie together a strange combo of this weapon and this class.

The Liberator
These rogues would often appear deep in the enemy’s ranks and bases without a warning, causing havoc and raising hell. And while that was bad enough, the main force would arrive utterly annihilating everything in their path. These ambush tactics were necessary to free slaves and prisoners with minimal casualties, causing mass mayhem and securing a path for allies. Known for their strong group support, the Liberator is a powerful tactician on the battlefield.

Off Hand: Warhorn
Uses: Shouts
Features: Team Mobility, Group Support, Boon Denial, Revealed Benefits

Shadow Mark replaces the Steal skill as their F1 and Ambush replaces the F2 class mechanic, removing the ability to gain environmental weapons. Shadow Mark (The F1 Skill) leaves a shadow mark behind while shadow stepping to the target, which lasts for 50 seconds, active or not. It stays hidden when it is not active. The shadow mark can be destroyed. Placing another shadow mark removes the current one.

Amubsh (The F2 Skill) activates the shadow mark, allowing allies to shadow step (not teleport, still requires pathing) to your location for 3 seconds. Improvisation allows you to active this a second time before going on cool down, essentially allowing 6 seconds of allied shadow steps before it goes on cool down.

Distracting Cull(Sword Warhorn 3): Taunt(1/2s) your target, preparing to block the next attack. Upon successful block, you strike your target with your sword. (4 IN)

Shadow Rush (Dagger Warhorn 3): Rush forward(450), granting yourself and 4 nearby allies superspeed (1s) while striking enemies on the way. 5 nearby allies’ next attack applies blindness (2s). (4 IN)

Warning Shots (Pistol Warhorn 3): Fire your pistol into the air several times while alerting allies to your target enemy, applying confusion x 2 (4s). Nearby allies gain vigor (4s). (4 IN)

Snuff Out (Warhorn 4): Send out a (300 range) gust of smoke, destroying a hostile field effect while blinding 5 enemies in a cone. (6 IN)

Liberator’s Cal (Warhorn 5): 5 Nearby(600 radius) 5 enemies cannot have boons applied to them by others while pulsing superspeed(1s) to 5 allies. Drains 1 initiative per second as long as this skill is held down.

“Fall Back!” (Shout, Heal): Remove movement impeding conditions from nearby allies while healing allies and granting superspeed (2s) to allies. 600 radius.

“You’re Dead!” (Shout, Utility): Applies a unique debuff on target enemy for 4 seconds, causing all boons received to be converted to 2 stacks of vulnerability. 600 range.

“Try Harder!” (Shout, Utility): Apply retaliation to nearby allies and removes protection, stability, and aegis from target enemy while removing debilitating conditions from allies. 600 radius.

“Until Next Time!” (Shout, Utility): Grants stealth (2s) to 4 allies within a 1,200 radius. Breaks stuns on affected targets.

“Dodge This!” (Shout, Utility): You and your allies next attack is unblockable. Target enemy loses 50 endurance. Unblockable.

“Let’s Get Em!” (Shout, Elite): Grants superspeed to 10 allies within 1,200 for 5 seconds. Affected allies gain 100% resistance to movement impeding effects.

(Default Traits)
Minor: (Ambusher) You can wield warhorns and your steal is replaced with Shadow Mark and Ambush.
Minor: (Part of the Plan) Gaining revealed grants 1 stack of stability (4s) and 3 stacks of might (12s).
Minor: (Element of Surprise) Remove 1 boon from 5 nearby (240 radius) enemies when you are revealed.

(Selective Traits)
Adept: (Kill Secured) Gain quickness (4s), stability (4s), and Stealth (4s) when striking a foe under 10% health. kitten ICD.
Adept: (Spotting Beacon) Gaining reveal applies reveal to nearby enemies. Reveal duration is reduced by 33%.
Adept: (Blitzkrieg) Shadow Mark’s recharge time resets upon killing a foe. 25s ICD. Ambush applies 10 stacks of might(5s) to those that activate the shadow mark.

Major: (Raid Siren) Warhorn skills converts 1 boon to a condition on enemies on use.
Major: (Liberation) Ambush breaks stuns in a 360 radius around your shadow mark for 5 nearby allies. Removes movement-impeding conditions on allies that activate the shadow mark.
Major: (Cheap Shot) Deal 10% more damage to blinded enemies.

Grandmaster: (Turn the Tables) Recharge Ambush when under a control effect. 10s ICD.
Grandmaster: (Forwarding) Shouts grant quickness (2s) and Initiative (3) on cast.
Grandmaster: (Double Tap) Stealth Attacks do not apply reveal when striking a target under 25% health (still removes stealth). 30s ICD.

Note: You can enter your own shadow mark, but it will move you nowhere, lol.

Note: Thinking of doing Mesmer or Engineer next.

Update: Changed stuff, thanks for some suggestions. Elite changed.

(edited by WEXXES.2378)

Thief Spec Idea: The Liberator

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Posted by: PopeUrban.2578

PopeUrban.2578

Ally shadowsteps are probably a thing we won’t ever see unless they only work on group members. Its sad, but they could be used very easily to grief people in open world content.

As for the rest of the idea, I like the basic concept, but the skills themselves seem pretty anti-thief. Traditionally, thief support is more about debilitating enemies than buffing allies, so I’d imagine a thief warhorn to be far more themed around demoralizing enemies than buffing allies. Stuff like “your ally’s next attack applies weakness.” or “Enemies around you are dazed” or “remove x boons” or “targeted enemy taunts other enemies for x seconds” style skills seem more in line with what I’d image thief warhorn would do.

Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ

(edited by PopeUrban.2578)

Thief Spec Idea: The Liberator

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Posted by: WEXXES.2378

WEXXES.2378

Ally shadowsteps are probably a thing we won’t ever see unless they only work on group members. Its sad, but they could be used very easily to grief people in open world content.

As for the rest of the idea, I like the basic concept, but the skills themselves seem pretty anti-thief. Traditionally, thief support is more about debilitating enemies than buffing allies, so I’d imagine a thief warhorn to be far more themed around demoralizing enemies than buffing allies. Stuff like “your ally’s next attack applies weakness.” or “Enemies around you are dazed” or “remove x boons” or “targeted enemy taunts other enemies for x seconds” style skills seem more in line with what I’d image thief warhorn would do.

Good points, changing some stuff!

As for the ally teleports, maybe, but there are a lot of things that can grief others as well. Also, in this spec, theres only 2 ways to do it (ambush and elite) and they aren’t readily available all the time.

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Posted by: PopeUrban.2578

PopeUrban.2578

I think, for ally teleports, an opportunity mechanic would be more appropriate, similar to the way mesmer portals work.

Very early in development those portals were automatic, you walked in to them and got instantly teleported. It was changed to an activated ability to keep the functionality without forcing allies to do something that they might want to put off a few seconds (or totally ignore)

If it were, say “for x seconds your ally’s next jump/hit f/etc. shadowsteps them to your position” it might have a better feel to it?"

Another option would be to treat it kind of like ele conjures, spawn them some sort of interactable that would give them the boons and shadowstep when activated maybe?

Like, the basic idea I get (provide allies an on demand shadowstep) but the implementation is a little tricky to keep it from being highly disruptive for pve, or even accidentally disruptive when its well intentioned given the pace of GW2 combat.

What if you flipped it? Ambush would in stead shadowstep the target to you and then process whatever buffs. Thematically it’s the same idea, helping the party jump on an enemy, but it’s less disruptive. As an instant pull it’s also pretty unique and powerful support, as most pulls have some sort of dodgable projectile or effect.

Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ

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Posted by: Slaymeding.9584

Slaymeding.9584

Dude,this looks professional.
Loving the military element and could be balanced by marking the allies you will shadowstep to the area.

Could not be an Engineer IRL so i’ve become one in Tyria.

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Posted by: WEXXES.2378

WEXXES.2378

I think, for ally teleports, an opportunity mechanic would be more appropriate, similar to the way mesmer portals work.

Very early in development those portals were automatic, you walked in to them and got instantly teleported. It was changed to an activated ability to keep the functionality without forcing allies to do something that they might want to put off a few seconds (or totally ignore)

If it were, say “for x seconds your ally’s next jump/hit f/etc. shadowsteps them to your position” it might have a better feel to it?"

Another option would be to treat it kind of like ele conjures, spawn them some sort of interactable that would give them the boons and shadowstep when activated maybe?

Like, the basic idea I get (provide allies an on demand shadowstep) but the implementation is a little tricky to keep it from being highly disruptive for pve, or even accidentally disruptive when its well intentioned given the pace of GW2 combat.

What if you flipped it? Ambush would in stead shadowstep the target to you and then process whatever buffs. Thematically it’s the same idea, helping the party jump on an enemy, but it’s less disruptive. As an instant pull it’s also pretty unique and powerful support, as most pulls have some sort of dodgable projectile or effect.

That could be a great way to go around it. For example with the elite, you drop a huge “portal” that can only be activated once per character to shadow step to the middle of it, provided you have a path because its still a shadow step.

I know they were automatic at one point, it was hilarious when you had 2 mesmer portals on top of each other and people got stuck in them and it lagged the hell out of servers lol.

Ambush can be disruptive, but there’s a non-disruptive version of it that replaces your stolen item function (or maybe give thieves a 3rd button?) with a shadow step that only brings you to the target.

With thief though, control is heavily important. I’ll think of something :V

Dude,this looks professional.
Loving the military element and could be balanced by marking the allies you will shadowstep to the area.

Thanks! Thinking of something. Might do another class with a non-thematic weapon as well, this is fun, lol.

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Posted by: MakubeC.3026

MakubeC.3026

I like it.
The concept of a Thief that nullifies foes’ boon gain is certainly appealing. Like PopeUrban mentioned, it would be more thematic for a thief to bring support by debilitating the enemy more than empowering friends, and I do really like some of your ideas, specially the revealed (part of the plan) kind of thing. However keep in mind that revealed is the anti-thief mechanic, so we cannot be powerful while on stealth and also powerful while revealed.

As for ambush, sadly the teleport thing doesn’t sound too fun and sadly, too many traits are based on steal, so I would suggest: leave steal as it is, and then:

Ambush (30 secs CD): Teleport to target. Your target teleports to your original position.

Hope you like it.
I also made an imaginary Elite for Thief, its really fun to dream.

Thief Spec Idea: The Liberator

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Posted by: WEXXES.2378

WEXXES.2378

I like it.
The concept of a Thief that nullifies foes’ boon gain is certainly appealing. Like PopeUrban mentioned, it would be more thematic for a thief to bring support by debilitating the enemy more than empowering friends, and I do really like some of your ideas, specially the revealed (part of the plan) kind of thing. However keep in mind that revealed is the anti-thief mechanic, so we cannot be powerful while on stealth and also powerful while revealed.

As for ambush, sadly the teleport thing doesn’t sound too fun and sadly, too many traits are based on steal, so I would suggest: leave steal as it is, and then:

Ambush (30 secs CD): Teleport to target. Your target teleports to your original position.

Hope you like it.
I also made an imaginary Elite for Thief, its really fun to dream.

Thanks!

I thought thief was severely lacking in buffing allies to begin with.

To be strong in stealth and on reveal means you have to take 2 non-DPS related trait lines, which lowers your DPS for sure. The traits in the Liberator line for damage is meant to help out.

The idea was that a thief would spot out enemies, then brings his team in while the thief causes disorder and prevents the enemy from reacting. The enemy shadow steps to you thing can kinda be done already with Scorpion Wire though, even if its very unreliable.

Thief Spec Idea: The Liberator

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Posted by: PopeUrban.2578

PopeUrban.2578

The enemy shadow steps to you thing can kinda be done already with Scorpion Wire though, even if its very unreliable.

True, but “shadowstep to enemy” can also be done with a lot of abilities that aren’t steal. What makes steal special is that it’s an extra button, and that there are a lot of traits that can imbue it with extra effects.

Think about it from the perpective of an on demand instant pull that ca also be traited to daze, poison, ive you some init, etc. etc. as well as whatever aoe effects your elite spec line may add to it and it starts to make sense. This is essential as changing steal, as we’ve seen with other elite specs, means that “on steal” traits become “on using your f1 ability” and traits like improvisation become “using your f2 ability” etc.

It makes even more sense if it also generates a form of stolen item that’s different from the basic ones, so in stead of primarily offensive steals, you get a more group-centric buff. For example, stealing from a warrior gives you an axe whirl, but liberator-pulling a warrior might give you a “banner of might” steal that plants a might pulsing banner that can’t be picked up, or in stead of stealing the group support healing seed from a ranger you get a camoflauge kit that aoe camoflauges (the ranger version of stealth that breaks on movement) etc.

Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ

(edited by PopeUrban.2578)

Thief Spec Idea: The Liberator

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Posted by: WEXXES.2378

WEXXES.2378

The enemy shadow steps to you thing can kinda be done already with Scorpion Wire though, even if its very unreliable.

True, but “shadowstep to enemy” can also be done with a lot of abilities that aren’t steal. What makes steal special is that it’s an extra button, and that there are a lot of traits that can imbue it with extra effects.

Think about it from the perpective of an on demand instant pull that ca also be traited to daze, poison, ive you some init, etc. etc. as well as whatever aoe effects your elite spec line may add to it and it starts to make sense. This is essential as changing steal, as we’ve seen with other elite specs, means that “on steal” traits become “on using your f1 ability” and traits like improvisation become “using your f2 ability” etc.

It makes even more sense if it also generates a form of stolen item that’s different from the basic ones, so in stead of primarily offensive steals, you get a more group-centric buff. For example, stealing from a warrior gives you an axe whirl, but liberator-pulling a warrior might give you a “banner of might” steal that plants a might pulsing banner that can’t be picked up, or in stead of stealing the group support healing seed from a ranger you get a camoflauge kit that aoe camoflauges (the ranger version of stealth that breaks on movement) etc.

Shadowstepping an enemy, especially on an ability that is available to any liberator build, is an iffy subject and a bit off-theme. I think of the liberator as a freedom-fighter / smuggler, not an assassin that isolates a person and then shanks them to death. If anything, shadowstepping an enemy would be reserved for a different specialization. The way I had everything designed is to infiltrate and then move your team in for an ambush, with warhorn/shouts focused on denying the enemy to react as hard.

If I ever do another spec idea I’d definitely use that as the next thing, but to me its just not fitting for liberators. I don’t know. \o/

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Posted by: PopeUrban.2578

PopeUrban.2578

Well, in terms of the “limit trolling” implementations anet seems to be fond of… what about granting aoe allied stealth and superspeed? Same theme, but without the jarring transition of an instant allied teleport that people could use to drop you on top of red circles etc.?

The mark version is kind of a more janky mesmer portal, and shadowstepping directly to the thief may not be idea in a party with a mix of range and melee right? The stealth/superspeed version is easier to use, not to mention opens some build options for thieves and allows them to more easily drop or enhance one of the thief’s prime support skills, shadow refuge.

So YOU would teleport to foe and steal (possibly my modified “support steals”) and could trait steal however, and your group would be able to quickly and easily follow up?

This would allow you to do up the warhorn skills a bit ahead of the group, more fulfilling the theme you have in mind for the liberator perhaps?

Also, warning shots sounds like a fun skill thematically, with a potentially awesome animation (blowing a warhorn and firing in to the air) but how about in stead of a reveal, it grants allies vigor and inflicts vuln/confuse on enemies? Granting allies AoE cripple power and a single target reveal feels pretty weak. Considering how situational reveal is it seems like a better idea to attach it to a 4 or 5 skill, and getting people to run pistol/warhorn just for a reveal and cripple doesn’t seem all that enticing.

Pistol mainhand is a condi weapon, so P/Wh3 being a condi skill makes sense, and pistol 2 is a kinda wonky skill. It’s going to be a heard sell to get someone to take non-stealth pistol so that 3 skill really needs to sell it. P/Wh would be a support/condi damage set just looking at the abilities so how about making the 3 do just that?

Spammable vuln/vigor/confuse, that’s pretty powerful support on par with SB2’s spam blast finishers and decent damage to compete with P/D’s stealth chain without overshadowing it.

The elite I’m torn on. On the one hand I see what you’re going for, repositioning everyone in an aoe to a specific spot for support application. I feel that it needs… something given the chaotic nature of GW2s combat and the potentially devastating nature of high mob and player damage. Perhaps add a stun at the thief’s location when he casts it? In this manner you’d have the cast, if follower up quickly by the group, tha was easier for the group to warp to point and then get combat positioning in the 2-3 seconds the stun was active to prevent them from getting annoyingly wiped out by cleaves or aoes. It has great synergy with warhorn, venomshare, and SR though, and I think that unlike the proposed mark version of the F1 has a useful and uique effect that separates it from mesmer portal enough that it feels unique.

Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ

(edited by PopeUrban.2578)

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Posted by: runeblade.7514

runeblade.7514

Shout should apply reveal to themselves.

“Hey guys, I’m over here!”

5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant

Thief Spec Idea: The Liberator

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Posted by: WEXXES.2378

WEXXES.2378

Well, in terms of the “limit trolling” implementations anet seems to be fond of… what about granting aoe allied stealth and superspeed? Same theme, but without the jarring transition of an instant allied teleport that people could use to drop you on top of red circles etc.?

The mark version is kind of a more janky mesmer portal, and shadowstepping directly to the thief may not be idea in a party with a mix of range and melee right? The stealth/superspeed version is easier to use, not to mention opens some build options for thieves and allows them to more easily drop or enhance one of the thief’s prime support skills, shadow refuge.

So YOU would teleport to foe and steal (possibly my modified “support steals”) and could trait steal however, and your group would be able to quickly and easily follow up?

This would allow you to do up the warhorn skills a bit ahead of the group, more fulfilling the theme you have in mind for the liberator perhaps?

Also, warning shots sounds like a fun skill thematically, with a potentially awesome animation (blowing a warhorn and firing in to the air) but how about in stead of a reveal, it grants allies vigor and inflicts vuln/confuse on enemies? Granting allies AoE cripple power and a single target reveal feels pretty weak. Considering how situational reveal is it seems like a better idea to attach it to a 4 or 5 skill, and getting people to run pistol/warhorn just for a reveal and cripple doesn’t seem all that enticing.

Pistol mainhand is a condi weapon, so P/Wh3 being a condi skill makes sense, and pistol 2 is a kinda wonky skill. It’s going to be a heard sell to get someone to take non-stealth pistol so that 3 skill really needs to sell it. P/Wh would be a support/condi damage set just looking at the abilities so how about making the 3 do just that?

Spammable vuln/vigor/confuse, that’s pretty powerful support on par with SB2’s spam blast finishers and decent damage to compete with P/D’s stealth chain without overshadowing it.

The elite I’m torn on. On the one hand I see what you’re going for, repositioning everyone in an aoe to a specific spot for support application. I feel that it needs… something given the chaotic nature of GW2s combat and the potentially devastating nature of high mob and player damage. Perhaps add a stun at the thief’s location when he casts it? In this manner you’d have the cast, if follower up quickly by the group, tha was easier for the group to warp to point and then get combat positioning in the 2-3 seconds the stun was active to prevent them from getting annoyingly wiped out by cleaves or aoes. It has great synergy with warhorn, venomshare, and SR though, and I think that unlike the proposed mark version of the F1 has a useful and uique effect that separates it from mesmer portal enough that it feels unique.

Very good points, making changes!

I think the confusion would be great for P/W 3. There’s already vulnerability on pistol 2.

The difference between group stealth + superspeed and shadowstep is that you won’t kitten yourself using it. It’s a choice to use it as well, so it would be entirely your fault if it gets you caught in something worse. Superspeed + Stealth can be hard countered with reveal or simply attacking and you usually lose your stealth during fights almost immediately.

One way I thought of using ambush is you have your shadowmark placed where people are fighting, then when you are repositioning or catching up to someone escaping you can hit that ambush and have allies follow. The reason why its a shadowstep and not a teleport is to prevent it from being an absolute portal so have every single liberator portaling into WvW keeps and stuff which would be unbalanced.

The way you worded it sounds like Ambush instantly shadowsteps nearby allies. It doesn’t. They need to hit the F key on it to do it, so its their choice. Hope that clears up some misunderstanding.

I think a stun is overdoing it for the elite. Maybe a pulsing blind in the AoE can accomplish mostly the same thing.

The elite was definitely designed as a re-position, but mostly for escaping. This and shadowmark is based off the idea you can use functions when you are CCed, like portal. So while this is active, you can activate it no matter what state you are in that doesn’t involve being dead or downed and be teleported to the center where the liberator most likely is. The elite, however, still feels lacking, and it’s weird for a shout. I might just change it completely.